2011-04-03 01:20 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: I'm going to give a small talk to the local dorkbot people about copyleft hardware
2011-04-03 01:21 <kristianpaul> I will talk about nanonote, milkymist and wpan  (may be gps-sdr for get people interested on development too)
2011-04-03 01:21 <kristianpaul> I want talk about the part of the atena design in wpan
2011-04-03 01:22 <kristianpaul> Is okay said, it is a rev eng process coming for already similar products, and you developed the tools and integrated existent one as usrp2 in order to make that trial and error process easier?
2011-04-03 01:27 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i didn't really reverse-engineer the antenna. i took this design: http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/swra117d/swra117d.pdf
2011-04-03 01:28 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: what i changed was the size. TI describe that the size depends on the PCB thickness, but don't explain how exactly it changes. (their design is for a 1.0 mm board, mine are 0.8 mm)
2011-04-03 01:29 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: finding the right size is what the experiments were for
2011-04-03 01:29 <kristianpaul> ah, okay !
2011-04-03 01:31 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i used the usrp2 basically as a spectrum analyzer. i didn't complete any software that talks directly to the USRP2 (there's that partial spectrum analyzer i did, but that doesn't produce correct results yet)
2011-04-03 01:31 <kristianpaul> ah...
2011-04-03 01:32 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: instead, i used the gnuradio tool usrp2_rx_cfile.py to capture a transmission and then perform FFT (and some other filtering) on it
2011-04-03 01:32 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: so i integrated the USRP2 and an existing gnuradio tool into my test/experiment setup
2011-04-03 01:34 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: what about RF consideratios for board design, is it also documented on the aplication note you pointed to me?
2011-04-03 01:36 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: see also ben-wpan/usrp/sps/collect for collecting the traces, and ben-wpan/usrp/fft.c for the FFT. ben-wpan/usrp/sps/ has more scripts for visualization and such. they are what i used to generate http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/20110303/
2011-04-03 01:37 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (RF) a little. but most comes from http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8092.pdf
2011-04-03 01:38 <kristianpaul> yes, i'm aware of FFT part
2011-04-03 01:38 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: plus a bit of googling around. see also ben-wpan/ecn/ecn0007.txt
2011-04-03 01:38 <kristianpaul> okay, software part is the implementation of MAC by bit banging RF CHip registers?
2011-04-03 01:39 <kristianpaul> one of the functions of software part*
2011-04-03 01:40 <kristianpaul> I just like to make clear how a "Wifi" chip differ from yours 802.15.4 one
2011-04-03 01:40 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: there are two sets of software: the tools in ben-wpan/tools/ and the linux stack. the linux stack uses the ieee 802.15.4 drivers and mac of the linux-zigbee project. i just made a few small corrections and added the platform-specific initialization (gpio setup and such)
2011-04-03 01:40 <kristianpaul> And the benefist in software
2011-04-03 01:40 <kristianpaul> ok
2011-04-03 01:41 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: the tools under ben-wpan/tools/ don't implement a proper mac - they just send "naked" frames without address fields or such
2011-04-03 01:42 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: well atrf-txrx, which is the most complex of the tools. the others have other roles, e.g., atrf-id just identifies the chip, atrf-rssi shows the signal strength (without actually receiving any data), and so on
2011-04-03 01:52 <kristianpaul> ACK
2011-04-03 01:57 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: any wishlist for wpan thay you feel missed now, and wanted for future versions?
2011-04-03 02:03 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: better RF design testing. more compact (use a four-layer board with microvias). maybe better testability for atben (lacks an easy way to test the crystal). maybe antenna diversity. maybe an RF amplifier for range extension. find out if a dedicated MCU can be useful and act accordingly (or not).
2011-04-03 02:04 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: also, some real-life experience with wpan may add more items :)
2011-04-03 02:08 <kristianpaul> (real-life experience) agreed :-)
2011-04-03 10:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Ayla: The method FileLister::browse() now takes an optional boolean argument. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/d820470
2011-04-03 10:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Ayla: If the "sections/" directory is missing, we create it as well as some default sections (settings, applications...). http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/8336c83
2011-04-03 10:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Ayla: The sections directories shall now be found under the user-specific directory. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/114fe59
2011-04-03 10:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Ayla: The skin images will now be loaded using SurfaceCollection::getSkinFilePath(). http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/fe25cf3
2011-04-03 10:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Ayla: Define a default wallpaper path, that will be chosen if no wallpaper is defined on the config. http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/301e16e
2011-04-03 10:20 <Ayla> hello
2011-04-03 10:21 <Ayla> I'm looking for a picture I could use as the default wallpaper for gmenu2x for the nanonote
2011-04-03 10:36 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: so now the community news feature deep inside jokes ;-))
2011-04-03 10:37 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: not sure it you saw these:
2011-04-03 10:37 <wpwrak> | potential entries for the 04-04: 1) the ben-wpan samples http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/007457.html
2011-04-03 10:37 <wpwrak> | the decision that tuxbrain will lead the production (and which may potentially have started already)
2011-04-03 10:37 <wpwrak> oops, let's try this again ...
2011-04-03 10:38 <wpwrak> | 2) the decision that tuxbrain will lead the production (order already issued)
2011-04-03 10:38 <wpwrak> | 3) that we have a kernel that allows atben to communicate via ieee 802.15.4
2011-04-03 10:38 <wpwrak> | not sure if 3) is newsworthy yet. there are still a few more things missing before it's actually useful
2011-04-03 10:38 <wpwrak> | regarding 2), there's also the integrated process for producing fab files, but i haven't documented it yet. at its core is ben-wpan/makefiles/Makefile.kicad, which is semi-generic
2011-04-03 10:43 <wolfspraul> yes sure I saw it, thanks a lot
2011-04-03 10:43 <wolfspraul> no worries
2011-04-03 10:43 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: what is the deep inside joke?
2011-04-03 10:44 <wolfspraul> I just try to collect a few nice things...
2011-04-03 10:44 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: the money falling from the sky :)
2011-04-03 11:01 <kristianpaul> at medellin
2011-04-03 11:02 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: ah. that may be subconsciousness :-)
2011-04-03 11:02 <wolfspraul> I just flipped through the mimi&eunice comics and liked that one...
2011-04-03 11:03 <wpwrak> it resonates rather strongly with current events ;-)
2011-04-03 11:10 <kristianpaul> I liked that comic too :-)
2011-04-03 11:34 <wolfspraul> ok I think all sections except NanoNote are finished
2011-04-03 11:34 <wolfspraul> this is what I'm talking about http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-04-04
2011-04-03 11:41 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: do the new visual patches have any images ?
2011-04-03 11:45 <wolfspraul> he
2011-04-03 11:45 <wolfspraul> fbgrab (screenshot) is also just being added
2011-04-03 11:45 <wolfspraul> so there are few screenshots of m1 still
2011-04-03 11:45 <wolfspraul> but that should soon improve :-)
2011-04-03 11:46 <wolfspraul> ctrl-f12, done
2011-04-03 11:46 <wpwrak> aah, fbgrab. very important indeed !
2011-04-03 11:46 <wolfspraul> so I don't know whether we have screenshots, I didn't see any otherwise I would have included them
2011-04-03 11:46 <wolfspraul> one by one
2011-04-03 11:46 <wolfspraul> we also have 05-01 news
2011-04-03 11:47 <wolfspraul> the old way to take screenshots was only in qemu, afaik
2011-04-03 11:48 <wolfspraul> Sebastien uploaded the 2 shots of his new color theme, not sure whether he took them in qemu or already with fbgrab
2011-04-03 11:49 <wpwrak> should be easy to find out ;-)
2011-04-03 11:54 <wpwrak> hmm. maybe.
2011-04-03 11:57 <wpwrak> larsc: i just read about zram ... could this be something useful for our ben's poor little memory ?
2011-04-03 12:02 <larsc> maybe
2011-04-03 12:04 <Ayla> yes, it works quite good
2011-04-03 12:07 <wpwrak> Ayla: you've tried it on the ben ?
2011-04-03 12:07 <kristianpaul> where do you tested or saw it working Ayla ?
2011-04-03 12:07 <kristianpaul> at hostel
2011-04-03 12:07 <Ayla> it's enabled by default on opendingux
2011-04-03 12:07 <Ayla> the new linux kernel for dingoo a320
2011-04-03 12:07 <Ayla> so it should work quite good on ben too
2011-04-03 12:14 <wpwrak> Ayla: how does the system's performance differ with/without it ?
2011-04-03 12:15 <Ayla> well, if it's not used, it does not eat any memory or processing power
2011-04-03 12:16 <Ayla> in use, it uses some processing power to compress/decompress the data. However, it's still faster than swap on a flash device like SD
2011-04-03 12:18 <wpwrak> Ayla: do you did notice a performance improvement ? i mean, not only on paper
2011-04-03 12:18 <Ayla> yes, eduke32 is less laggy when using swap
2011-04-03 12:18 <Ayla> I mean, zram swap over SD swa
2011-04-03 12:18 <Ayla> swap*
2011-04-03 12:19 <wpwrak> great. that's a useful data point, thanks
2011-04-03 12:20 <wpwrak> i wonder what it does for systems that don't use swap. may have an even more dramatic effect
2011-04-03 13:24 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: so sebastien's screenshots were taken to fbgrab
2011-04-03 13:24 <wolfspraul> saw it
2011-04-03 13:24 <wolfspraul> PROGRESS
2011-04-03 13:24 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-04-03 13:24 <wpwrak> yay ! :)
2011-04-03 13:58 <whitequark> is xiangfu very busy now?
2011-04-03 14:16 <wolfspraul> ok I will do more NanoNote editing (in the news) tomorrow
2011-04-03 14:17 <wolfspraul> slowly getting there
2011-04-03 16:14 <rjeffries> wpwrak assuming Nanonote 8:10 SPI --> UBB --> ribbon cable --> [some flavor Arduino]
2011-04-03 16:15 <rjeffries> what would one look for so the target Arduino can exchange data with Nanonote "master"
2011-04-03 16:15 <rjeffries> for now we ignore whether the Arduino can or can not be programmed from this lash up.
2011-04-03 16:21 <kristianpaul> rjeffries: i think long time ago that questions you made is answered as posible
2011-04-03 16:21 <kristianpaul> but maybe i lost the point.. :/
2011-04-03 16:32 <roh> there are spi serial converters
2011-04-03 16:32 <roh> in the end only a programmed avr, but possible
2011-04-03 16:32 <roh> one could programm another ardiuino via that
2011-04-03 17:02 <rjeffries> thanks roh maybe I am unclear myself. I know tuxbrain connected Aeduinno to Ben Nanonote long ago using Ben's serial port
2011-04-03 17:02 <rjeffries> that would work with any Arduino or clone  model
2011-04-03 17:03 <rjeffries> when using SPI to talk to Arduino, I am not sure if ont certain Arduinos can do that, or
2011-04-03 17:03 <rjeffries> maybe a "shield" with an extra SPI to serial chip is needed?
2011-04-03 17:05 <rjeffries> where i am headed is thinking of an Arduino of some ilk connected to Nanonote over
2011-04-03 17:05 <rjeffries> a reasonably high speed connection. then (just a matter of software...;) it would be possible
2011-04-03 17:06 <rjeffries> to connect Nanonote to Ethernet
2011-04-03 17:06 <rjeffries> or interface (via arduino) to I2C periferals
2011-04-03 17:07 <rjeffries> the major smarts are Linux Ben Nanonote, the Arduino is a semi smart semi independent slave pod
2011-04-03 17:08 <rjeffries> the Arduino ecosystem offers so many cool and cheap modules but suffers from being quite low level
2011-04-03 17:09 <rjeffries> new topic: this seems mildly interesting and very open:
2011-04-03 17:09 <rjeffries> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/announcing-openfhss-project
2011-04-03 17:30 <whitequark> rjeffries: the problem with ethernet is, you don't have any external interface with sufficiently high speed and host capability
2011-04-03 17:31 <whitequark> maybe you'll be able to find SDIO ethernet card, but it won't work with SPI
2011-04-03 17:34 <rjeffries> whitequark well, if goal is connectivity, I think it can work. wpwrak measures (if I recall right...)
2011-04-03 17:34 <rjeffries> well over a megatbit per second over the 8:10 spi interface.
2011-04-03 17:35 <rjeffries> most access to internet does not require very high speed.
2011-04-03 17:35 <rjeffries> I am so old i remember using dial modems to connect to internet at various speeds
2011-04-03 17:36 <rjeffries> at 56Kbps, the internet is useable. works great for email or irc and ok for light casual browsing with a text browser
2011-04-03 18:06 <whitequark> rjeffries: there are two points
2011-04-03 18:06 <whitequark> first, not everyone uses ethernet for internet. it's sometimes useful to transfer a file to internal media
2011-04-03 18:07 <whitequark> well, that may be not very useful as there's usb-device and sd-card anyway.
2011-04-03 18:07 <whitequark> second, pages were loading at acceptable speed then in 56k days. now average homepage may be around a megabyte of rounded corners and transparent PNGs
2011-04-03 18:08 <whitequark> hm, third is that it'd be hard to fit a good browser in ben's 32M
2011-04-03 18:10 <Ayla> that's fine using zram swap ;)
2011-04-03 18:15 <kyak> whitequark: is "links -g" a good enough browser for you? It fits well into Ben's 32Mb :)
2011-04-03 18:19 <tuxbrain> whitequark: sure and ethernet module with spi interface will not work? I have been reported with diferent opinions about this
2011-04-03 18:29 <whitequark> kyak: please, try using it for, maybe, a day or two, and you'll answer your question yourself
2011-04-03 18:31 <kyak> whitequark: i don't get your point
2011-04-03 18:32 <whitequark> kyak: it isn't really usable with modern sites
2011-04-03 18:32 <whitequark> at least it wasn't last time I've checked it
2011-04-03 18:32 <kyak> "modern sites"? what is it?
2011-04-03 18:33 <whitequark> tuxbrain: of course it will work. somehow. looking at PM, SD pins are not multiplexed with SPI, and so you'll need to use bitbang driver in kernel
2011-04-03 18:33 <whitequark> that isn't very fast and is very cpu-hungry
2011-04-03 18:34 <whitequark> kyak: try opening qi-hardware.com, or maybe google.com, or github.com
2011-04-03 18:34 <kyak> whitequark: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications#links
2011-04-03 18:34 <kyak> this is "opening qi-hardware.com" :)
2011-04-03 18:44 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (comm with avr) SPI with the ben the master and the avr the slave should be convenient
2011-04-03 18:48 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (from yesterday, SIE with jz4760) not a bad idea. if someone was to redesign the SIE, that would certainly be a better starting point than the aging 4720
2011-04-03 18:55 <whitequark> kyak: links cannot be used for day-to-day tasks
2011-04-03 18:57 <whitequark> it is only good to say "hey, our device can load web-pages", but hardly more
2011-04-03 18:59 <kyak> it depends on which tasks you do day-to-day
2011-04-03 18:59 <kyak> i use elinks regularly to access gmail without any problems
2011-04-03 19:00 <kyak> have to go now
2011-04-03 19:39 <rjeffries> wpwrak how much new Ben software is needed to achieve bi-direcetional data transfer between Ben NN and AVR (read Arduino)
2011-04-03 19:41 <wpwrak> rjeffries: just to communicate ? not a lot. you could just reuse my spi code for ben-wpan. the harder bit is the avr side, plus some meaningful protocol that rides on top of spi.
2011-04-03 19:42 <rjeffries> wpwrak ubderstood regards need for a Ben to AVR protocol
2011-04-03 19:43 <rjeffries> if objective is using AVR to handle real time data collection via say I2C or whatever, with AVR/Arduino as a smart beffer or even some data reduction before handoff to ben that could be feasible
2011-04-03 19:44 <rjeffries> but to get real, why not use a cheap netbook as master and simply communicate to Arduino via USB.
2011-04-03 19:45 <rjeffries> a low end netbook running linux is prolly $200 new oe slightly used
2011-04-03 19:48 <wpwrak> sure, you can do that. i would try to cut out the man in the middle, i.e., the avr :)
2011-04-03 20:28 <wpwrak> hates statistical distributions that don't make sense
2011-04-03 20:32 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: what distribution are you talking about?
2011-04-03 20:37 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: the transmit timing, measured by the ben. i'm trying to determine the atben's clock frequency without direct access to the clock signal.
2011-04-03 20:39 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: really, don't use my name followed by black magic power words like frequency , direct access or signal... it really scares me.
2011-04-03 20:40 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: the method is to load a packet, then initiate transmission with a pulse (there's a dedicated gpio for this). then measure how long it takes until the tx complete interrupt arrives
2011-04-03 20:40 <wpwrak> ah wait .. lemme check the chip-internal interrupt latency ...
2011-04-03 20:41 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
2011-04-03 20:44 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: biboca garagem favela fubanga maloca bocada Maloca bocada fubanga Favela garagem biboca, porra !!! Ze do caixao zumbi lampiao
2011-04-03 20:47 <wpwrak> grmbl. two set of values, an unexplainable 150 us apart
2011-04-03 20:48 <wpwrak> i understood the first and the second, but you threw me with the catalan ;-)
2011-04-03 20:51 <tuxbrain> I think is portugues , is a the Rattamahatta lyrics from sepultura, I don't know what it really means but the song looks like a vudu conjure :P
2011-04-03 20:52 <tuxbrain> or maybe a recieipt to do some cake but well , it sounds like vudu cake
2011-04-03 20:54 <tuxbrain> 150us seems a lot of time on transmision scale, isn't it? (OMG I'm starting to intuit your tech mambo jambo nonsense)
2011-04-03 20:55 <wpwrak> the drugs are starting to work ;-)
2011-04-03 20:57 <tuxbrain> drugs+lack of sleep+a lot of qt programing readed is causing me to feel sick....  I think I'm gonna remedy at least one of the three, good night
2011-04-03 20:57 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: here's some sample data: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/tx-100-counts.gz
2011-04-03 21:00 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: a good way to look at it is, after gunzip'ing, with gnuplot   plot "<sort -n tx-100-counts" with lines
2011-04-03 21:00 <wpwrak> to zoom in,  set yrange [30000:33000]  (or zoom manually)
2011-04-03 21:01 <wpwrak> yaxis is the number of counts between send trigger and interrupt. one count is about 100 ns
2011-04-03 21:02 <tuxbrain> well no need to see that it seems that it tends to be stable at 31300 aprox but with random jumps of 400 to 1000 units .... whatever it means
2011-04-03 21:03 <wpwrak> x axis is the cumulative number of samples. e.g., we have about 7000 samples with ~31300 counts, ~2000 samples between ~31300 and ~32800, and then another ~1000 around 32800
2011-04-03 21:04 <wpwrak> this is a ben with everything that could get in the way dead. including interrupts. actually, let me verify that ...
2011-04-03 21:05 <wpwrak> yeah. everything switched off
2011-04-03 21:06 <tuxbrain> well if the input is the same something should be altering the values.... in theory same input sould give you output ... extrange...
2011-04-03 21:06 <wpwrak> it gets worse: plot "tx-100-counts" with dots
2011-04-03 21:07 <wpwrak> now you can see that there are a lot of samples at the ~31300 baseline. but there's a pattern over time with the ones that don't quite fit. they're also very systematic.
2011-04-03 21:08 <tuxbrain> yes I even saw that with the numbers directly.... I think something is happen on the ben on x period
2011-04-03 21:08 <tuxbrain> something is not off
2011-04-03 21:09 <wpwrak> yet i do set ICMSR to 0xffffffff
2011-04-03 21:10 <tuxbrain> or the sistem or the CPU is doing something we don't know on that moment cyclic
2011-04-03 21:11 <wpwrak> hmm. maybe the frame buffer. switching it off, too ...
2011-04-03 21:11 <tuxbrain> I suppose this will complicate the creation of software on the ben side for communications isn't it?
2011-04-03 21:11 <wpwrak> in the end, my program will look worse than gmenu2x ;-)
2011-04-03 21:12 <tuxbrain> ha!
2011-04-03 21:12 <wpwrak> (complicate) no, not at all. this is only for production testing.
2011-04-03 21:13 <tuxbrain> also with an advert before the screen shut down... don't move, don't breath, you may alter the values stay froze for a seconds please....
2011-04-03 21:17 <wpwrak> naw, the system is only unresponsive for about 3-4 ms
2011-04-03 21:17 <wpwrak> of course, 10000 times in a row ;)
2011-04-03 21:18 <tuxbrain> wow how long is the test?
2011-04-03 21:21 <wpwrak> 4 ms * 10k = ~40 s. of course, 10000 is a bit excessive. once things work properly, a lot less should do.
2011-04-03 21:24 <wpwrak> yes ! that did the trick ;-)
2011-04-03 21:24 <tuxbrain> was the frambuffer?
2011-04-03 21:27 <wpwrak> yup. tuned the lcd clock off and now i get ...
2011-04-03 21:28 <wpwrak> (tuRned)
2011-04-03 21:28 <wpwrak> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/tx-counts-trim.png
2011-04-03 21:29 <wpwrak> that's with different trim values. t0 is the lowest extra capacitance -> clock runs fastest, t15 the highest -> slowest
2011-04-03 21:30 <wpwrak> and this is indeed what we see :-)
2011-04-03 21:30 <wpwrak> distribution looks vaguely gaussian, which is also good
2011-04-03 21:40 <tuxbrain> ok again im  lost in translation from wpwrakish to tuxbrainian, but if you are happy and you said is good , I'm happy too :)
2011-04-03 21:41 <tuxbrain> gn8
2011-04-03 21:44 <wpwrak> (trim) the load capacitors of the crystal are programmable
2011-04-03 21:46 <wpwrak> so changing the trim is an easy test for whether i can accurately measure the clock frequency. the objective is to detect SMT problems. so a whole capacitor would be missing. that would cause a greater divergence than these trim changes.
2011-04-03 22:06 <wpwrak> hmm. something in the ben doesn't like it if i turn off the lcd clock. hangs after a while :-(
2011-04-03 22:18 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: you may get your wish for a "don't touch while testing" mode after all :)