2011-04-01 00:18 <wpwrak> roh: btw, will you test the sugru ? note that it may change rf performance, so you'll have to check that too.
2011-04-01 00:50 <roh> uuuuh. nope.
2011-04-01 00:51 <roh> would need to find some first
2011-04-01 00:53 <wpwrak> yes, or devise a theoretical absorption model and simulate it. that may be a few years more work, but i'm sure the world of RF designers would be eternally grateful ;-)
2011-04-01 01:10 <lars_> i have some sugru here, only 3 hours and roh could have it ;)
2011-04-01 01:10 <lars_> probably faster than running the simulations
2011-04-01 01:11 <wpwrak> darn. scientific breakthrough thwarted by convenience !
2011-04-01 01:13 <lars_> you can have everything
2011-04-01 01:19 <panda|x201> it's a Unicon!
2011-04-01 01:25 <wpwrak> aw_: by the way, do you have any comments on the atben/atusb boards ? anything you'd suggest to change ? there may still be time :)
2011-04-01 01:28 <aw_> wpwrak, if a panel shown up with 10 pieces, it would be great. i ususally confirm the final panel gerber to let pcb maker to produce after i confirm it's okay.
2011-04-01 01:29 <wpwrak> aw_: okay, that's a good thing to consider. maybe also send it to the smt fab to check.
2011-04-01 01:31 <aw_> wpwrak, so you'd better to check if final panel regression compared to your current (working) design.
2011-04-01 01:32 <aw_> especially focus on edges on combined each piece of panel.
2011-04-01 01:33 <wpwrak> aw_: you mean a shift in the layers ?
2011-04-01 01:34 <aw_> yes, only after you confirmed the final panel gerber then they start to make pcb, then send that final panel gerber to let smt maker to produce stencil.
2011-04-01 01:35 <aw_> wpwrak, no; just check each edge of small pcb in panel.
2011-04-01 01:35 <wpwrak> aw_: i think pcb and smt fab know each other quite well in this case. so we won't need to act as an intermediary. but checking never hurts :)
2011-04-01 01:35 <wpwrak> aw_: (edge) okay. what kind of problems should i look for ?
2011-04-01 01:36 <aw_> yes, pcb maker always utilize materials as possible to place 10 piece into panel. so those 10 pieces maybe are not on the same row/column or direction.
2011-04-01 01:37 <aw_> make sure that the most usb connector & antena area.
2011-04-01 01:38 <wpwrak> aw_: what problems should i look for in the antenna area ?
2011-04-01 01:38 <aw_> 10 pieces with few supporters linked together, you need to confirm if the strengthen is quite stronge enough when smt machine mounting.
2011-04-01 01:39 <aw_> just check if each pieces of antenna area have supporters links. if yes, you will pay more attentions on this.
2011-04-01 01:39 <aw_> second, let me show you.
2011-04-01 01:40 <aw_> wpwrak, http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1_jtagserialpod_run1_panel_front_pcba.png
2011-04-01 01:43 <wpwrak> aw_: ah, i see what you mean, thanks !
2011-04-01 01:44 <aw_> see this. imagine that 10 pieces are linked together. so you need make sure a "V-Cut" or "Stamps" links each piece and don't let "Stamps" linked your antenna's pcb edge. because those "Stamps" will be manually or cut by machine. so those edges around anttena is the most concern area.
2011-04-01 01:45 <aw_> only confirmed the panelized gerber then inform to pcb maker to produce it. :-)
2011-04-01 01:45 <wpwrak> aw_: i don't think "stamps"/tabs at the antenna would be a problem. in the case of atusb, there's of course the issue that there's a hole on the other side (for the usb connector)
2011-04-01 01:46 <wpwrak> aw_: but let's see how they solve this :)
2011-04-01 01:46 <wpwrak> aw_: (tab removal) i think it's tuxbrain + sand paper ;-)
2011-04-01 01:48 <aw_> wpwrak, also pay more attentions on usb connector's direction. like that panel link i sent you, if usb connector are placed in all the same direction, you will get trouble after smt mount. worker needs to "V-cut" your panel.
2011-04-01 01:49 <aw_> so sometimes a bi-directional arrangement is good: like one row 5 piece, they are on the same direction, the others are another direction. :-)
2011-04-01 01:50 <wpwrak> aw_: there will be a hole in the panel for the usb connector. the usb connector extends below the pcb: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/usb-off-board.jpg
2011-04-01 01:51 <wpwrak> aw_: so they'll just make a big hole for it. problem solved :) (maybe it's not terribly efficient, but i guess that's fine for now)
2011-04-01 01:51 <aw_> yes, i know it; let's how pcb maker arrange/merge your 10 pieces first. :-)
2011-04-01 01:53 <aw_> i didin't talk about that hole, make sure let david to send panelized gerber from pcb maker, so we can view it. don't directly inform them to make pcb. :-)
2011-04-01 01:54 <wpwrak> aw_: yup. will do
2011-04-01 03:22 <kristianpaul> wow sugru looks awesome, who need 3d printers after that ;)
2011-04-01 03:23 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: those who want to make > 1 units that look the same ? :)
2011-04-01 03:24 <kristianpaul> :p
2011-04-01 03:24 <kristianpaul> http://sugru.com/gallery/show/comfier-tap :D
2011-04-01 03:25 <kristianpaul> this is the top http://sugru.com/gallery/show/padded-hook
2011-04-01 03:25 <kristianpaul> anyway .. :-)
2011-04-01 03:37 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (padded hook) it'll be even more impressive when the sugru replaces the metal :)
2011-04-01 03:37 <wpwrak> the tap looks pretty cool
2011-04-01 03:39 <kristianpaul> (metal) :-)
2011-04-01 05:16 <tuxbrain> lars roh, that sugru test will be awesome ;) I also have buyed a 12 units bag two days ago
2011-04-01 05:20 <tuxbrain> aw_ wpwrak:(panel gerbers) as wpwrak said the pcb and smt vendors usually work together and already talked about the requeriments, but I will send a mail to pcb to send me the gerber panel before it starts anyway, regarding stencil smt vendor was clear with this and will not do the stencils until they have phisically the pcb panel in their hands.
2011-04-01 05:22 <aw_> tuxbrain, yup...great. :-)
2011-04-01 05:24 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: (smt guys being careful) good :)
2011-04-01 05:27 <tuxbrain> aw_  : has wpwrak comment you to sendme the atben/atusb material to me?
2011-04-01 05:27 <tuxbrain> with greedy voice giveme giveme giveme
2011-04-01 05:28 <aw_> tuxbrain, no, not yet heard them from wpwrak
2011-04-01 05:29 <aw_> tuxbrain, wpwrak what will material be??
2011-04-01 05:34 <tuxbrain> aw_:, 2 atben, 2 atusb, and 2 atusb-pgm , I will sendyou back production units later
2011-04-01 05:36 <aw_> tuxbrain, okay.
2011-04-01 05:37 <wpwrak> aw_: that would be the samples i sent you, before it was decided that tuxbrain instead of sharism would do the production
2011-04-01 05:38 <wpwrak> aw_: sorry that this only materialized too late to avoid the detour
2011-04-01 05:39 <aw_> wpwrak, no problem.
2011-04-01 05:44 <wpwrak> aw_: thanks !
2011-04-01 05:44 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: seems that we'll then have about one month to figure out a test process
2011-04-01 05:45 <aw_> tuxbrain, does the delivery address is the same as before?
2011-04-01 05:46 <tuxbrain> yeah also a good source of rf experience and equipment :) the guifi.net guys
2011-04-01 05:46 <tuxbrain> aw_: yes it is
2011-04-01 05:47 <aw_> tuxbrain, okay.
2011-04-01 05:47 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: what would be the best link to give them to descrive atben/atusb?
2011-04-01 05:48 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: (guifi) got anything more cryptic ? ;-)
2011-04-01 05:49 <wpwrak> maybe this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/2boards-20110305.jpg
2011-04-01 05:49 <wpwrak> and this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atben-20110123-front.jpg
2011-04-01 05:49 <wpwrak> mention that it's an Atmel AT86RF231, doing IEEE 802.15.4 in the 2.4 GHz ISM band
2011-04-01 05:49 <tuxbrain> and some text descriving functionalyty and goals?
2011-04-01 05:50 <wpwrak> hmm, goals ... "poor man's wifi" ? :)
2011-04-01 06:06 <tuxbrain> guifi.net guys are implementing a WIFI a profesional high band and quality altenative network , they also obtain goverment telecomunication provider status, if this guys come on board we will have real RF pro ,
2011-04-01 06:07 <tuxbrain> here is the guifi about in english http://www.guifi.net/en/what_is_guifinet
2011-04-01 06:11 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: ah yes, they may have attracted some people with real RF knowledge and tools
2011-04-01 06:15 <tuxbrain> here is the map of the guifi net nodes , lucky they are maily active in Catalunya :) http://www.guifi.net/en/node/3671/view/map
2011-04-01 06:15 <tuxbrain> maily->mainly
2011-04-01 06:18 <wpwrak> with an outpost in africa. interesting :)
2011-04-01 06:18 <tuxbrain> I have contact them a couple of times and coincide in some meetings, but our lack of wifi and our low interest on implement it has make no real colaboration happens, I hope atben/atusb will change this :)
2011-04-01 06:19 <wpwrak> yeah, some folks there may like IEEE 802.15.4
2011-04-01 06:21 <tuxbrain> I bet his first complain will be... but just 10 meters????? bah.... but I will try to redirect this to help us to make a high gain design :), we count with the advantage that they have the permision to operate at high power antenas on 2.4 band :)
2011-04-01 06:22 <wpwrak> yeah, there may be a lot of optimizations one can do
2011-04-01 06:24 <tuxbrain> ok one insider is moving strings to arrange a meeting , I will try to have equipment access when aw samples arrive to perform some tests training for the production test :)
2011-04-01 06:30 <wpwrak> excellent !
2011-04-01 07:58 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: aw_: confirmed, the pcb vendor will give us the panelization gerbers before production.
2011-04-01 07:58 <aw_> tuxbrain wpwrak great, let's check a bit. :-)
2011-04-01 08:04 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: remember the jtag-serial replacement?
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> Adam will include 3 fixed jtag-serial boards into the shipment
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> please put the 3 old ones aside and return to me at some later opportunity
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> I will definitely fix and reuse them.
2011-04-01 08:05 <tuxbrain> wolfspraul: yes waiting instutions,
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> since we got no replies from H:D or kd85, I assume their number is 0
2011-04-01 08:05 <tuxbrain> ok instructions recieved :)
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> I just resent a mail to them
2011-04-01 08:05 <wolfspraul> if I have no number in the next 2 hours, Adam will send 3, it's that simple :-)
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: you still have all 3 boards with you?
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> that would be best then you can replace all jtag-serial boards with properly fixed ones...
2011-04-01 08:06 <tuxbrain> yes, I was waiting for te replacement to send to pulster
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> oh
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> wow
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> I didn't know that
2011-04-01 08:06 <wolfspraul> man we need to improve communication :-)
2011-04-01 08:06 <tuxbrain> he
2011-04-01 08:07 <wolfspraul> ok
2011-04-01 08:07 <wolfspraul> tomorrow Adam's package goes out, including 3*jtag-serial
2011-04-01 08:07 <tuxbrain> don't worry all undercontrol every body is happy here
2011-04-01 08:07 <roh> whow you guys are moving fast
2011-04-01 08:08 <tuxbrain> roh who? sharims? tuxbrain? wpwrak? adam? all?
2011-04-01 08:08 <wolfspraul> roh: I got no answer to a simple question in 5 weeks
2011-04-01 08:08 <wolfspraul> from paying customers, distributors actually
2011-04-01 08:08 <wolfspraul> amazing :-)
2011-04-01 08:09 <roh> hehe.. just reading _long_mails
2011-04-01 08:09 <wolfspraul> but yes, I assume they are so happy with the product, they don't even care about free fixes
2011-04-01 08:09 <wolfspraul> must be that
2011-04-01 08:09 <roh> btw.. better dont use my openmoko mail.. its working, but i dont check it that often
2011-04-01 08:11 <tuxbrain> I must admit that to be a the poorest international hardware group we are doing pretty well in terms of I+D and production, a bit o punch on marketing and we maybe left the status of the poorest ones :)
2011-04-01 08:11 <tuxbrain> roh what mail do you preffer
2011-04-01 08:11 <roh> tuxbrain: the smt quotes thread
2011-04-01 08:13 <tuxbrain> :) yeah, nothing like a fool in charge to accelerate things :)
2011-04-01 08:15 <tuxbrain> no knowledge, no equipment, no money, but leading a production of high frequency wireless device to use with a protocol not fully developed (6loWPAN) , put some metal as bkground and yeah that's Tuxbrain in pure state
2011-04-01 08:15 <roh> my problem is that i havent yet found a nice 'concept' for casing both nicely and cheap
2011-04-01 08:16 <roh> i guess i will set up some kind of sheet-material built jig as a 'potting form' which helps aligning the pcbs and filling in something like sugru to a nice formed case
2011-04-01 08:16 <tuxbrain> at least you have found one nicely or cheap
2011-04-01 08:16 <tuxbrain> ?
2011-04-01 08:17 <roh> nah. neither. my bet is that sugru isnt really one of the expensive options. sinc one doesnt need that much in total
2011-04-01 08:17 <roh> the usb thin could find a pre-made case, but sourcing that reliable can be hard
2011-04-01 08:19 <tuxbrain> the sugru aproach doen't  look bad , both on atben and atusb,
2011-04-01 08:19 <roh> maybe we should just try (rf performance)
2011-04-01 08:19 <roh> sadly i have no clue how to get my ben working
2011-04-01 08:20 <roh> was some really early hw. i think ram or flash was smaller
2011-04-01 08:20 <tuxbrain> roh: lars_ can make you arrive sugru,
2011-04-01 08:20 <roh> ah. ok
2011-04-01 08:20 <tuxbrain> mmmmm roh: send me your address
2011-04-01 08:21 <roh> well.. i should check rf performance first
2011-04-01 08:21 <tuxbrain> yes a previous test unsugrued is a must to compare :)
2011-04-01 08:25 <wolfspraul> aw_: now they are moving, we are at 5 already :-)
2011-04-01 08:26 <aw_> wolfspraul, so 5 serial/JTAG pods?
2011-04-01 08:26 <aw_> wolfspraul, maybe more later. :-)
2011-04-01 12:44 <wpwrak> roh: (potting form) hmm, sugru may be far too viscous for that. i imagine it more like chewing gum than, say, silicone sealant used for construction
2011-04-01 12:46 <wpwrak> roh: and even the sealant isn't something i'd trust with anything resembling a cast at such small sizes
2011-04-01 12:47 <wpwrak> roh: but if things work, shipping with just a bag or two of sugru may be an attractive option. it would also justify calling the whole thing a "kit", which may help staying under the radar of FCC and the like.
2011-04-01 13:03 <roh> heeh
2011-04-01 13:09 <wpwrak> roh: so what we would need is: 1) confirmation that it does indeed work, 2) an estimate of how much material is needed (i.e., is one bag enough ?), 3) report of any pitfalls, and 4) some pictures that show how cool it looks :)
2011-04-01 13:10 <roh> i will find out
2011-04-01 13:10 <wpwrak> roh: ah, you may be able to stamp it. nice way to add a personal touch.
2011-04-01 13:12 <roh> nice idea
2011-04-01 13:16 <tuxbrain> do you believe we should joint the oshw train ? at least for marketing :)
2011-04-01 13:18 <methril_work> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/04/01/1212219/Debian-OpenSUSE-Arch-Gentoo-and-Grml-Merge
2011-04-01 13:18 <methril_work> hehehehe
2011-04-01 13:20 <lekernel> tuxbrain: what's "the oshw train"?
2011-04-01 13:20 <kristianpaul> well, it suposed copyleft hardware is just that, oshw is there
2011-04-01 13:20 <lekernel> huh?
2011-04-01 13:21 <kristianpaul> i mean not copyleft hardware is not to be confused with oshw
2011-04-01 13:21 <kristianpaul> of cours both share some things
2011-04-01 13:22 <lekernel> what's the difference?
2011-04-01 13:25 <tuxbrain> lekernel: http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW
2011-04-01 13:25 <kristianpaul> _for_ _me_ copyleft includes already oshw plus copyleft plans, (manufacturing, marketing.. )
2011-04-01 13:26 <kristianpaul> free software
2011-04-01 13:26 <kristianpaul> freedom to share a like and profit
2011-04-01 13:26 <kristianpaul> copyleft hardware is not just one thing
2011-04-01 13:27 <tuxbrain> must leave I will read you later
2011-04-01 13:27 <lekernel> ah, yeah, those little people
2011-04-01 13:27 <lekernel> my patience is far exceeded for all this crap
2011-04-01 13:29 <lekernel> just put copyleft hardware into large retail stores. screw that OSHW thing. it doesn't work anyway.
2011-04-01 13:29 <kristianpaul> you mean copyleft hardware like the mm1? :-)
2011-04-01 13:30 <lekernel> additionally they don't want us (at least milkymist). believe it or not, it seems to me that they are more pesky than the largest french retail chain for technology products
2011-04-01 13:31 <lekernel> so I have the choice between selling 10 MM1s through pesky makezine people, or potentially 10K or more to this retail chain with relatively cool people. now pick one...
2011-04-01 13:31 <kristianpaul> ;)
2011-04-01 13:32 <wolfspraul> correct we need to target professional retail and in general professional companies with strong marketing and strong existing customer base
2011-04-01 13:32 <wolfspraul> and we are creating the prerequisites for that right now
2011-04-01 13:32 <kristianpaul> Copyleft hardware as care for software freedom, must care for turnkey solutions i think
2011-04-01 13:32 <wolfspraul> for us copyleft is a natural thing, I mean it's 2011, right? it's just the culture of the Internet, and we can focus on the product now
2011-04-01 13:38 <wpwrak> oshw take on the noble task for explaining to people who never chose to get out of bed the intricate details of the process of walking. meanwhile, we run around in the yard, playing :)
2011-04-01 13:38 <roh> wpwrak: i think we all agree that we implicate that besides other concepts
2011-04-01 13:39 <roh> that meaning 'the concept of copyleft open hardware
2011-04-01 13:40 <kristianpaul> yup
2011-04-01 13:41 <roh> and i see the diversity and spattertness of the community as true feature
2011-04-01 13:41 <roh> e.g. the freakduino/chiboduino stuff.. also nicely documented and free code
2011-04-01 13:42 <roh> too bad these boards are in japan. 33$ are not even 25E anymore.
2011-04-01 17:09 <wpwrak> roh: (implicate) btw, that's not a good word to use. it it somewhat synonymous with "include", "involve", or "imply", but often has a negative sense.
2011-04-01 17:14 <roh> meh
2011-04-01 17:34 <polobrazy> hello, do you know if the driver of AMD enables the use of 3 monitors (full resolution) with the Radeon HD 5750 ?
2011-04-01 17:35 <kristianpaul> polobrazy: /j #hardware
2011-04-01 17:35 <polobrazy> thank you
2011-04-01 17:35 <kristianpaul> is is qi-hardware  Copyleft hardware  is out topic
2011-04-01 17:35 <kristianpaul> np
2011-04-01 17:35 <kristianpaul> s/out/our
2011-04-01 17:36 <polobrazy> thank you, nice to learn a new concept!
2011-04-01 17:37 <polobrazy> could someone please invite me in the #hardware channel?
2011-04-01 19:53 <buggus1> exit
2011-04-01 22:36 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: corrected type in RFP net name http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/84f2d27
2011-04-01 22:36 <wpwrak> grr. s/type/typo/
2011-04-01 23:51 <lekernel> http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/114064993/plutonium_239.html
2011-04-01 23:52 <kristianpaul> 0_o
2011-04-01 23:53 <lekernel> "Home > Products > Chemicals > Explosive"
2011-04-01 23:55 <wpwrak> lekernel: bah, for that price, you can fly to tokyo where you get it for free !
2011-04-01 23:55 <kristianpaul> huh??
2011-04-01 23:55 <lekernel> http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/114976318/Uranium.html
2011-04-01 23:55 <lekernel> amazing xD
2011-04-01 23:55 <lekernel> is that for real?
2011-04-01 23:56 <lekernel> everything seems to come from ukraine... scavenged from chernobyl?