2011-03-14 00:55 aw_: i have a little smt question: given an 0805-sized chip with 6 contatcs, like the one on the lower right of http://media.digikey.com/Renders/Wurth Electronics Renders/0805SMD.jpg 2011-03-14 00:57 aw_: would you consider a gap - across the width - between pads of 0.8 mm to be okay ? the chip's width is 1.25 mm 2011-03-14 00:58 aw_: when i soldered that component, it felt as if there wasn't much pad under the chip. but maybe that was just an illusion (and my etching technique may also have increased the gap a little) 2011-03-14 00:58 aw_: data sheets: http://katalog.we-online.de/kataloge/eisos/media/pdf/748421245.pdf 2011-03-14 00:59 aw_: http://www.johansontechnology.com/images/stories/ip/balun-filters/Balun_Filter_Combo_Matched_2450FB15L0001_v12.pdf 2011-03-14 01:08 wpwrak, 0.8 * 39.37mil = 31.496 mil which is okay in regular pcb industry. And probably be as an illusion while etching tech. by DIY. 2011-03-14 01:10 wpwrak, a gap of pads you can always tell yourself to keep a general specification as nominal 5 mil which is current PCB maker can produce it.the 2011-03-14 01:15 wpwrak, the 748421245 the minimum dimension is 0.2 mm (~ 7.84 mil)...I was only curious that how tuxbrain_away picked up a qualified pcb maker to make your design UBB. 2011-03-14 01:18 when you trying to deal with a possibility of producing boards, building a part footprint with more than 5 mils is better. as this 748421245 is producible. :-) 2011-03-14 01:19 not sure if my replies answers your question? ;-) 2011-03-14 01:19 (5 mil) in this case, we have about 10 mil. so it should be safe then. 2011-03-14 01:20 (pcb maker) the ubb result is encouraging. if they can make ubb, they can also make atben/atusb :) 2011-03-14 01:20 (answers) yes, thanks a lot ! i just wanted to double-check that i'm not building a problem there 2011-03-14 01:23 exactly. so what i would like to encourage such great results is that we keep to design at 5 or even 7mil gap (clearance, ring spec...etc) then the design will be any convenience and ease to produce anywhere not only Asia. ;-) 2011-03-14 01:23 aw_: btw, have you had a look at the atben/atusb boards ? do they look okay ? 2011-03-14 01:23 yeah..good. 2011-03-14 01:23 wpwrak, sorry that haven't yet. ;-) 2011-03-14 01:24 aw_: (5/7 mil) yeah. by testing things with my DIY process, i'm kinda limited to such sized anyway ;-) 2011-03-14 01:25 wpwrak, i am trying to get m1 rc3 to be well-preparation done...after quite stuff done after sourcing can back look your masterpiece. 2011-03-14 01:26 ;-) 2011-03-14 01:27 sure. you always can imagine the difference between how hard/feasibility it could be happened from diy'work to the general industry. it's all good.;-) 2011-03-14 01:28 contrary to your work idea, i still haven't have this capability(RD.) to from diy work to industrial production. ;-) 2011-03-14 01:32 it's nice for small and reasonably simple things. doesn't scale so well towards larger/complex things, though, due to the low yield 2011-03-14 01:33 i.e., compact RF designs with lots of ground are messy 2011-03-14 03:41 kristianpaul, tuxbrain_away: new fab file location: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/fab/ 2011-03-14 03:45 k 2011-03-14 03:56 aw_: hmm ... on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/KiCad_Automatic_Insertion_File 2011-03-14 03:57 aw_: you say that the origin for positioning coordinates should be the center of a pad. why ? that's likely to be inaccurate anyway 2011-03-14 03:58 aw_: (inaccurate) because the component's reference/anchor point is somewhere else and the pad center is not whole number of grid steps away from this point 2011-03-14 03:59 aw_: unless you change the grid to something very small, etc., but that's looks like a high error risk 2011-03-14 04:03 wpwrak, yes, you are right. but as a smt manufacture I don't need to be precisely correct. but if using a DIY draft driller you need precisely. 2011-03-14 04:03 thanks that you mentioned this. let me edit it more info on this page. ;-) 2011-03-14 04:04 smt vendor they can pick fine tune as very well even just offset a lot. :-) 2011-03-14 04:06 aw_: hmm. i wonder, why try to hit the pad at all ? isn't it enough for the origin to be some well-defined point ? e.g., a corner of the board itself ? 2011-03-14 04:07 wpwrak, umm..i remembered that I studied this for a while even I've never used a CNC driller....yes, I just watched that I already wrote notice in that page (at the bottom). 2011-03-14 04:07 aw_: no, i mean for SMT, the AI file, not drilling/routing 2011-03-14 04:08 aw_: (for cnc, i actually do a lot of post-processing/tweaking ;-) 2011-03-14 04:09 you could imagine that smt machine which has powerful whole shifting offset with all parts' coordinates. 2011-03-14 04:10 aw_: also, how did you specify the package sizes and reeling to the smt fab ? did you send them a copy of the data sheets ? 2011-03-14 04:10 i also have your questions about first meeting smt machine. 2011-03-14 04:11 i usually sent AI and gerber files then they can just fine tune all of them with bom. :-) 2011-03-14 04:11 aw_: (offset) yes, i think that's inevitable. so there's no strict need for the origin to be on a pad ? 2011-03-14 04:11 no datasheet at all. 2011-03-14 04:11 aw_: (ai+gerber) heh, nice ;-) 2011-03-14 04:12 aw_: (datasheet) so how do they get the dimensions ? do they look them up themselves ? also, do you specify the component height somewhere ? 2011-03-14 04:13 exact on "no strict need for the origin to be on a pad", but please you should always let/move mouse cursor to the pad located at the most left and bottom side. Secondly, File->Fabrication Outputs->Modules Position, then the *.pos file is generated under main folder. 2011-03-14 04:14 i don't need to specify any component height. their smt machine have a lot of database on huge footprint they already existed. 2011-03-14 04:15 but there's one important step on calibration their each part while fine tune my part: how they do it. It's easy! 2011-03-14 04:15 aw_: i was thinking of putting the origin just at the corner of the pcb. that's a point that's perfectly on the grid. if i pick a pad, it'll be somewhere odd. they need to correct in any case, but at least it'll be a clearly defined location. 2011-03-14 04:16 aw_: (huge database) okay, let's hope for the best then :-) 2011-03-14 04:17 they picked up a IPC standard footprint then let smt machine do a comparison with its database's footprint with picked part with optical capture then fine tune part's dimension. Surely this process is done by located our AI file to them. 2011-03-14 04:18 (optical capture) ah, nice. let's see then how their machine likes my footprints :) 2011-03-14 04:19 and their smt technician will do auto or self -auto tune the AI file in advance before feeding a 'translated AI(coordinates)' file into smt machine. 2011-03-14 04:20 hey, your principles always be a good detail thing on "it's nice for small and reasonably simple things. doesn't scale so well towards larger/complex things, though, due to the low yield" 2011-03-14 04:20 aw_: so they'll do some real work for all the money. nice :) 2011-03-14 04:21 aw_: ah, what's the role of the "parts polarity" file ? 2011-03-14 04:21 hehe....Smt industry moves dramatically for many years , yes . that's they relied on machine not original/principle concepts. :-) 2011-03-14 04:21 aw_: can we get those 'translated AI(coordinates)' file back from them? 2011-03-14 04:22 aw_: (polarity) would that be for 0402/0603/etc. parts ? how did you generate it ? 2011-03-14 04:22 in general I would say - if the PCB or SMT supplier generate intermediate/corrected files, as part of our job, it would be great if they could zip them up and return to us 2011-03-14 04:22 i was tried to get them...but I finally didn't get them. 2011-03-14 04:22 aw_: even if those files are in proprietary formats, say the format of a particular pick&place or AOI machine 2011-03-14 04:22 aw_: why not? what did they say? 2011-03-14 04:23 just keep asking every time :-) 2011-03-14 04:23 but as i know that "translated (AI) file is not every types of smt machine is all the same. it depends on brand smt machine itsself. 2011-03-14 04:23 and escalate to the manager. no hesitation. if they like us a little less, I think we can still survive :-) (just keep them barely above kicking us out) 2011-03-14 04:23 surely...i won't forget this(asking) 2011-03-14 04:24 yes I can imagine those files are proprietary 2011-03-14 04:24 but that's ok 2011-03-14 04:24 at least it's a start where they know they should return intermediate files generated as part of our jobs to us 2011-03-14 04:24 Fuji/ Simens / etc.. 2011-03-14 04:24 wolfspraul: (what did they say) i can vividly imagine :-) "ha ha". then they politely forgot about it. eventually, adam also politely dropped the issue. the chinese way ;-) 2011-03-14 04:24 no I think there is actually no big secrecy. it's just unusual and creates workload for them. 2011-03-14 04:25 I am sure if they work for, say, our famous Apple, they have to make every last bit 24/7 accessible inside Apple's intranet 2011-03-14 04:25 wolfspraul: hence the "forget about it" treatment :) 2011-03-14 04:25 i could only ask them when I stay at smt vendor there. I don't want to waste time to discover this. some sort of proprietary. 2011-03-14 04:25 sounds good 2011-03-14 04:26 we slowly dig into this, it will increase the quality of the files we are sending to them in the long run 2011-03-14 04:26 and there are probably quite a few more standards/conventions to discover, if we only knew what they were... 2011-03-14 04:27 someone needs to build a nice cheap DIY pick and place, then we could send them actually tested AI files ;-) 2011-03-14 04:27 also don't forget AOI 2011-03-14 04:28 AOI ? 2011-03-14 04:28 automatic optical inspection 2011-03-14 04:28 they have quite impressive systems/software running there, and very important feedback loop for the pick & place machine 2011-03-14 04:28 ah, yet another step 2011-03-14 04:28 without AOI, the pick&place operator would be relatively blind 2011-03-14 04:29 so both are integrated into the same unit ? 2011-03-14 04:29 I think in practical reality the aoi is quite important, and part of an integrated process. 2011-03-14 04:29 not same unit, aoi is a different machine 2011-03-14 04:29 but the accuracy of p&p, and aoi feedback, go together in reality at the line 2011-03-14 04:29 aw_: do you agree? 2011-03-14 04:30 hmm, for thats is good the aptina stuff i hope :-) 2011-03-14 04:31 nah. those are very polished systems. from scratch it will take you 10+ years to develop something that is competitive with state of the art today. 2011-03-14 04:31 so p&p has a local optical system for the individual tuning work and then aoi checks the big picture ? 2011-03-14 04:31 and by then the 'state of the art' aoi machines will have evolved a lot more 2011-03-14 04:31 now i wonder how those smt machines driven by a Z80, that you can actually still buy, survive.. 2011-03-14 04:31 (10+) i've heard that so many times ... :) 2011-03-14 04:31 :) 2011-03-14 04:31 yes but designing our own aoi machine is a sure way to get lost, imo 2011-03-14 04:31 as i know, aoi machine is designed for mass productive purposes which is the process afterwards reflow process to verify if mis-mounted/un-balanced placements. 2011-03-14 04:31 oh, sure 2011-03-14 04:32 why not design our own xray machine, and many others. reflow oven, and so on. 2011-03-14 04:32 I just heard that once ;-) 2011-03-14 04:32 no no 2011-03-14 04:32 I don't know how many p&p machines have integrated optics to verify placement accuracy. 2011-03-14 04:32 maybe some high-end ones do. but keep in mind there is still the reflow oven after p&p. 2011-03-14 04:32 wolfspraul: (oven) that's being done already 2011-03-14 04:32 that's a lot of movement, shaking, heat, etc. 2011-03-14 04:32 wolfspraul: (xray) that sounds like the sort of thing you could get sebastien interested in :) 2011-03-14 04:32 so integrating optics into p&p only makes that much sense. you need a second optical check after the oven. 2011-03-14 04:33 he :-) (xray) 2011-03-14 04:33 aw_: if you think I mischaracterize something, let me know... 2011-03-14 04:33 wolfspraul: (aoi) there's quite a bit of computer vision software out there. might be fun for people in the field, e.g., from academia 2011-03-14 04:34 of course. definitely doable, but in the grand scheme of things it's by far not at my top. 2011-03-14 04:34 wolfspraul, so far there's no mischaracterize i read words. go on. 2011-03-14 04:34 there must be like 20+ other automated machines that create higher value when fully integrated into a free tools process than aoi. 2011-03-14 04:35 wolfspraul: (p&p and optics) it would seem that you need some optical feedback already for proper pickup and for coordinate system translation. if you do it all via AOI after reflow, you have a heck of a feedback loop. 2011-03-14 04:35 yes maybe there are integrated optics in p&p 2011-03-14 04:36 but like I said - lots of vibration, shaking, movement and heat after that stil 2011-03-14 04:36 and the line is creating a fully soldered product, not something where the p&p machine says it's perfect, but the user cannot boot 2011-03-14 04:36 the movement of the conveyor belt, and application of heat in the reflow oven, may shift components just beyond acceptable tolerances 2011-03-14 04:37 so it all needs to have one big feedback loop, back from the 'aoi' (=after oven) 2011-03-14 04:37 the PCB is also not perfectly flat, which is what limits larger panels in many cases 2011-03-14 04:38 as a EMS system which foxconn used , they used a tracking s/w system with a label(bar codes) to let every stations connected together and get feedback once afterwards process wrong. 2011-03-14 04:38 because depending on where on the curve a component sits, it may move differently in the oven. aoi will (should) catch it. 2011-03-14 04:39 if that wrong is extremely like wrong color of part's surface then feedback to smt chine stoped. then operator check it. 2011-03-14 04:41 wolfspraul: you probably need a fair bit of the same technology already for the pickup. well, there are also mechanical solutions. not sure how well they work, though 2011-03-14 04:41 aw_: a clarification about http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/jtagserial/run1/doc/top_1.jpg 2011-03-14 04:41 aw_: the interesting information here is the polarity of D2, D3, and D4. nothing else. correct ? 2011-03-14 04:41 wpwrak tomorrow I will contact a small local shop that can handle small SMT runs of something like atben at usb 2011-03-14 04:42 rjeffries: great. let's see what you can find. there ought to be places with good prices 2011-03-14 04:42 I know the people from years ago 2011-03-14 04:42 they are not a pcb fab 2011-03-14 04:42 rjeffries: yup. smt and pcb are usually separate 2011-03-14 04:42 I think the dorkbot deal wher ethey merge a bynch of jobbs will be excellent price 2011-03-14 04:42 here's an AOI station http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:WeyJia_tr7100ep_aoi.jpg 2011-03-14 04:42 rjeffries__: what happened with UBB run? 2011-03-14 04:42 wolfspraul: (feedback) yes, you need the big loop too. what i mean is that the big loop would be a poor substitute for the local loop. 2011-03-14 04:42 you need buses 2011-03-14 04:42 you forget the action after the p&p machine 2011-03-14 04:42 there is a conveyor belt 2011-03-14 04:43 movement, shaking, vibrations 2011-03-14 04:43 lots of probes to read.. 2011-03-14 04:43 the a lot of heat 2011-03-14 04:43 and heat to handle.. 2011-03-14 04:43 there is no point to make the p&p machine perfect beyond a certain point 2011-03-14 04:43 my price was bad so I concede the global market to tuxbrain 2011-03-14 04:43 wpwrak, exactly you discovered at all. nothing else i needed to provide to smt vendor. easy?! 2011-03-14 04:43 i guess is all based on current diferences (buses) 2011-03-14 04:44 he has cornered the UBB market 2011-03-14 04:44 wolfspraul: or may be hack an already p&r (just saying) 2011-03-14 04:44 we are just talking about understanding the file formats of commone p&p and aoi systems better 2011-03-14 04:45 I definitely believe in that. just getting the files, understanding them. so we are able to create higher quality (more easily usable) files ourselves, with free tools. 2011-03-14 04:45 I still don't know much about the file formats used in AOI machines, for example. seems the SMT places hold onto them... 2011-03-14 04:46 wpwrak, i could only say that you could marked all polarity of parts needed you think, I only added polarities on parts like capacitor/diode..other ic pakages i even without adding more marks. but it's good that building the polarity while editing part library/module. ;-) 2011-03-14 04:46 of course from their view this is what ties you to a particular smt shop. 2011-03-14 04:46 wolfspraul: again, my point is that the p&p machine would already benefit from some amount of vision, just not to make an excessive amount of errors locally 2011-03-14 04:46 sure I agree 2011-03-14 04:46 understand format, sure very important step :-) 2011-03-14 04:46 I'm past that 2011-03-14 04:46 wolfspraul: i.e., when you pick up a component, it won't be perfectly centered and rotated 2011-03-14 04:47 my point was that there is a second interesting system regarding 'placement' after the oven, called 'aoi' 2011-03-14 04:47 wolfspraul: if you catch that only after reflow, you have a problem 2011-03-14 04:47 wolfspraul: thus i don't believe this is an open loop in p&p 2011-03-14 04:47 yes 2011-03-14 04:47 it's not 2011-03-14 04:47 aoi catches different things, and has its own place in the process 2011-03-14 04:47 but very sophisticated (lots of software), and very important. that was my only point. 2011-03-14 04:48 wolfspraul: here you have a pretty clever but slow open loop system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__dEMKzkLYc 2011-03-14 04:48 I don't think you can have a professional run of anything, say 1K or more, without AOI. 2011-03-14 04:48 aw_: what do you think? 2011-03-14 04:49 have you seen runs or lines without AOI step after the oven? say they skip it, after they feel pick & place is stable... 2011-03-14 04:49 or they always keep the aoi step running, as part of the normal production process? 2011-03-14 04:49 wolfspraul: (aoi) yup, that's necessary as well. and it probably shares a fair amount of software (at least at the functional level) with the optics for the local loop in p&p. so if you make a p&p, you'd have to solve some of those problems already. 2011-03-14 04:50 aw_: ah, you included the polarity in the footprint. in the silk screen ? 2011-03-14 04:51 wpwrak: no I don't think so. the aoi & p&p seem to be from different vendors, and definitely totally different software. at least from what I've seen so far (I keep learning...) 2011-03-14 04:51 AOI machine is based on a base qty said over 200pcs mounted board or even 500 pcs to fine tune parameter/criteria to detetmine a qualified results from formal industry/or famous audit company. 2011-03-14 04:51 aw_: do you skip the AOI step in larger runs, or you always keep it running? 2011-03-14 04:52 where I shew our rc1 of M1 run with AOI , it indeed doesn't make sense on fining tune anything at all. just for if checking mis-mounted. 2011-03-14 04:53 yes, but that's because they did a lousy job on the rc2 aoi :-) which is because it's not worth to setup a good aoi for a run of 40. 2011-03-14 04:53 (correct me if I'm wrong) 2011-03-14 04:53 I always did AOI with the result report and replied to Motorola as audited report they defined from IPC doc. 2011-03-14 04:53 and one reason for that is because we don't know what types of files to supply to them to make a better aoi possible 2011-03-14 04:53 wolfspraul: don't they have AOI also before the oven ? at least i think the fic fab had that. don't remember about the one in taiwan. 2011-03-14 04:53 acutally I would like to cancel AOI run in lower than 500pcs. 2011-03-14 04:54 wpwrak, AOI is afterwards smt reflow. 2011-03-14 04:56 the lousy job is that we are not potential customers to them. yes, we just have 40pcs only. man! 2011-03-14 04:56 (diy p&p) here's a cute one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP5SnnZSqb8&NR=1 2011-03-14 04:56 even wejia I saw they were doing a celluar phone trial run with 800pcs! 2011-03-14 04:57 trial ;-) 2011-03-14 04:57 it's "trial" run about samples to promote prototype phones. 2011-03-14 04:58 800pcs only is "trial"..how we bit our business to let smt vendor to concentrate a 40pcs run?! 2011-03-14 04:58 well..i know I always need to work with them. 2011-03-14 04:59 he, actually i still wonder how thy acept a run of 40pcs 2011-03-14 04:59 (hopefully i guess Qi is not the only one in the same path) 2011-03-14 04:59 of femtho runs :-) 2011-03-14 05:00 aw_: how long take the 800pcs to be finished? for smt 2011-03-14 05:04 wpwrak, no , I dodn't include the polarity in the silkscreen. I don't need to add more polarities if you include them in silkscreen already. :-) 2011-03-14 05:04 aw_: so how did you mark the polarity ? 2011-03-14 05:04 kristianpaul, i didn't ask them how long..but it depends on machine. as i stayed before, 800pcs double sideds can be done in 5~6 hrs once fine tune is all done! 2011-03-14 05:04 wpwrak, that case i added polarity in image file and sent to them. 2011-03-14 05:04 wpwrak, so as your design, you could always add polarity into the same silkscreen layer. 2011-03-14 05:05 aw_: ah, that's cheating ;-)) 2011-03-14 05:05 wpwrak, "cheating" works is always as "openning" process in "close" industry/field. 2011-03-14 05:06 wpwrak, i didn't added/committed else in an original design. :-) 2011-03-14 05:08 as a desiger if I do, I'll alway add polarity into silkscreen layer. 2011-03-14 05:08 aw_: yeah, i'll do it in the silk screen. i don't like manual editing as part of the process. for me, the perfect workflow is just "make" :) 2011-03-14 05:09 wpwrak, sure, be a s/w "make" style it is as you are. :-) 2011-03-14 05:10 aw_: yes agreed. if the aoi step is very sloppy, rather just leave it out. 2011-03-14 05:10 up to them. our next run is 80, so I hope we find good decisions to produce the highest number of sellable boards, in the most economical way. 2011-03-14 05:12 wolfspraul, indeed it is. I'll decide surely then. 2011-03-14 05:27 kristianpaul, tuxbrain_away: regarding the fab (pcb) files, they're not the final versions yet. they're sufficient for getting a quote, but you should update after that 2011-03-14 06:22 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [new packages] jdkdrum Command Line Drum Synth Program For Linux http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/06fa0f3 2011-03-14 06:26 (earth quake :) 2011-03-14 06:26 [commit] Werner Almesberger: mlztx/mlztx: new utility to copy text in KiCAD board files to multiple layers http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/f8f8a75 2011-03-14 06:32 (I setup my blog DDNS to http://freedns.afraid.org/. thanks kristianpaul ) 2011-03-14 06:34 xiangfu_: (quake) having one ? or do you plan to make one with jdkdrum ? 2011-03-14 06:43 wpwrak: sorry. I mean "IRC network splits" :-) 2011-03-14 06:44 xiangfu_: ah ! not as bad as the real ones :) 2011-03-14 06:45 wpwrak: any other indication to the pcb vendor? 2011-03-14 06:49 tuxbrain_away: there's a README as well: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/README-PCB 2011-03-14 06:49 tuxbrain_away: and http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atusb/README-PCB 2011-03-14 06:49 tuxbrain_away: (it's also included in the tarball/zip) 2011-03-14 06:50 tuxbrain_away: note that they're a little different. for atben, i recommend an ENIG finish, while atusb probably doesn't need that 2011-03-14 06:51 tuxbrain_away: but that should be specified by the SMT fab. they'll have some set of preferred finishes. 2011-03-14 06:55 aw: is simple tin coating still okay for 0402 and 0.5 mm QFN or do they already require something better ? 2011-03-14 07:00 wpwrak, is this to your rf product on Surface Treatment? if yes, please use Immersion Gold rather than Immersion Tin. if you ask me why? I have no quite answers on this. 2011-03-14 07:00 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add compile rtems makefile http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/f8456a4 2011-03-14 07:00 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update compile flickernoise, add more depends http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/48c1faa 2011-03-14 07:01 cause I've always seen Immersion gold on rf pcb, never seen tim pcb before. ;-) It must be haven reasons behind. 2011-03-14 07:03 wpwrak, if even no rf-related at all, i still used immersion gold on m1 board. 2011-03-14 07:05 wpwrak, don't know if answered your question? 2011-03-14 07:05 aw: (never seen tin) hehe ;-) yeah, i read lots of good things about ENIG 2011-03-14 07:05 aw: if it wasn't RF, would you consider tin appropriate for components this size ? 2011-03-14 07:06 tuxbrain_away: seems that we should upgrade the recommendation for ENIG to a strong recommendation :) 2011-03-14 07:06 wpwrak, for components? or pcb coating? sorry, can't follow up. 2011-03-14 07:08 what's ENIG? is it a name of journal? 2011-03-14 07:08 aw: let me put the question in another way: what is the smallest component size where you would not use tin because it may cause reflow problems 2011-03-14 07:09 aw: ENIG = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroless_nickel_immersion_gold 2011-03-14 07:09 aw: are you adam ? ;-) 2011-03-14 07:09 wpwrak, aha...i remembered when i stayed at close company, the QA department they had have rules on this details. 2011-03-14 07:12 so yes, you got serious question on points, but I still have used tim coated component with 0603 produced at least 2k in half years without reflow problems. 2011-03-14 07:13 aw: ah, sorry, i didn't clarify that point: i mean the tin (or ENIG) as pcb finish 2011-03-14 07:13 so in a reality in practice, i quite won't focus on this. but as a researcher or professional designer, yes. if you already knew some info from others, just follow it. 2011-03-14 07:14 then I think it still won't be the problem at all since smt/re-flow machine tech them moved forwarding than ours. 2011-03-14 07:15 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add README http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/6d1cf65 2011-03-14 07:15 wpwrak, hm...as i said, i've never seen tin finished coating in RF pcb. :-) 2011-03-14 07:16 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add prepare, split configure rtems and compile rtems http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/c992a0b 2011-03-14 07:16 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add README http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/0f674d3 2011-03-14 07:16 so even have seen it before. The one I knew it didn't go into mp. so i can 't really answer this question. 2011-03-14 07:17 aw: okay, thanks ! i didn't think of a tin vs. rf connection. i'll google around a bit, see what turns up 2011-03-14 07:19 there's easy symbol which that have you ever seen a rf connector is tin coated? any wifi ant, their male/female is tin connector?...;-) 2011-03-14 07:20 wpwrak, sorry I don't have 'hard' data. ;-) 2011-03-14 07:21 aw: (non-gold rf) yes, of course, for example TVs usually don't have gold 2011-03-14 07:23 wpwrak, hmm..so the questions is porbably relevant to frequency-oriented. :-) The TV is 'M' Hz class. 2011-03-14 07:23 yours is "G"Hz. :-) 2011-03-14 07:23 aw: i also have some "serious" rf connectors that aren't gold. lemme look them up ... 2011-03-14 07:26 aw: here we are: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=ADP-SMAF-SMAF-ND 2011-03-14 07:26 this is related to "skin effect" theory on rf field IMO. 2011-03-14 07:26 aw: the outer body is nickel 2011-03-14 07:26 aw: (tv frequency) yeah, it's a bit low by today's standards ... "UHF", hah ;-) 2011-03-14 07:26 yeah. 2011-03-14 07:28 ah, here's something about the fine-pitch components: http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0409&L=technet&T=0&P=38538 2011-03-14 07:28 what carrier frequency of that ADP-SMAF-SMAF-ND you used? 2011-03-14 07:29 ask N experts, get >= N opinions ;-) 2011-03-14 07:29 (carrier) they don't specify. but sma usually goes up pretty high 2011-03-14 07:33 oah...yeah..tomb stoning..those experts even include Reliability / FMA Engineer! 2011-03-14 07:34 as a FMA is more concentrating on product life discussion. 2011-03-14 07:35 ok today I will as for quoting on PCB, 100 and 500 of each. once you are ready with smt info please let me know 2011-03-14 07:35 wpwrak, yes..came from even IPC expert. :-) 2011-03-14 07:38 tuxbrain_away: you can ask the pcb fab about the exact specification of their tin. seems that there are several types of tin finishes, e.g., there's also a tin-on-nickel, that's apparently not as bad a HASL 2011-03-14 07:42 aw: funny: http://www.ddmconsulting.com/Design_Guides/hasl_alt.pdf 2011-03-14 07:42 aw: on page 7 they actually argue against ENIG for RF :) 2011-03-14 07:43 aw: but then, I don't think we're quite ready to touch OSP ;-) 2011-03-14 07:46 wpwrak, yeah...OSP ...gta03 used it, surely not tin. :-) 2011-03-14 07:48 page 9 have good interesting column: > 2GHz.. 2011-03-14 07:50 wpwrak, even emmersion gold id recommended for < 2GHz. hey good now you got 'hard' data. :-) 2011-03-14 07:51 aw: hah, just wait: http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Cover_Story/f9be01107e7d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____ 2011-03-14 07:52 aw: here, they talk of problems only at 5 GHz 2011-03-14 07:52 N experts, >= N opinions :) 2011-03-14 07:56 oah..yeah..so which one you will suggest tuxbrain_away to use? ;-) 2011-03-14 07:58 and a third opinion, with nice graphs: http://www.taconic-add.com/pdf/technicaltopics--effects of lead-free solder.pdf 2011-03-14 07:59 wpwrak, if even you pick OSP, that you should always let them to do the impedence report, otherwise i doubt they will ensure the trace you want. 2011-03-14 07:59 (tuxbrain) i'd try to let the fabs fight it out among themselves. if that's not possible, i'd try enig. if that's a problem, i'd hope for the best with "tin" 2011-03-14 08:00 i don't know how those impedance reports work 2011-03-14 08:00 i'm a bit worried about the storage properties of OSP. doesn't it degrade quickly ? 2011-03-14 08:02 in any case, i don't think we need to try to optimize for the last percent. the whole design isn't that precise anyway. 2011-03-14 08:03 if someone with proper RF equipment has a go at tuning and optimizing things, that would change. but for now, i'm already happy if random variations stay below 5 dB 2011-03-14 08:04 once OSP sealed package is opened, you will lose them. yes. 2011-03-14 08:05 that makes OSP a no-go 2011-03-14 08:05 hm.. < 5dB is quite a good variation. 2011-03-14 08:07 xiangfu_: ping 2011-03-14 08:08 we'll see what happens :) i'm sure there will also be quite some difference between my prototypes and proper pcbs. hopefully for the better :) 2011-03-14 08:16 wpwrak, true. from hard data, the differences will be discovered from reading amplitudes of SA. :) 2011-03-14 08:19 kyak: Hi 2011-03-14 08:19 I update the build host compile script file. now ti's compile again. 2011-03-14 08:19 xiangfu_: hey! there are two urgent patches, https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9044 and https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9047. Without it, compilation will fail 2011-03-14 08:20 how do you think, should we add it to our backfire git or wait? 2011-03-14 08:20 i'm not sure it will be noticed/accepted by openwrt 2011-03-14 08:23 kyak: thanks for the info. I think we wait 2 ~ 3 days. 2011-03-14 08:24 ok, we'll wait 2011-03-14 08:27 kyak: you add the 'strverscmp.c'? compare to the upstream commit. there one more file 'strverscmp.c' 2011-03-14 08:28 where? 2011-03-14 08:28 uClibc/libc/string/strverscmp.c 2011-03-14 08:29 the patch adds this file 2011-03-14 08:32 ok 2011-03-14 08:32 kyak: I mis-read the first line to "GNU's strverscmp() function, taken from uClibc 0.9.32 ..." 2011-03-14 08:33 kyak: anyway. this reminder me my todo task. 2011-03-14 08:33 anyway, 0.9.32 has this function already 2011-03-14 08:34 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/User:Xiangfu#2011-02-27 2011-03-14 08:34 try to follow the upstream 'trunk' branch. 2011-03-14 08:34 i'd be happy to leave the backfire 2011-03-14 08:35 it's obviously forgotten by openwrt upstream 2011-03-14 08:35 "# prepare for moving to trunk/new openwrt release in may-august" 2011-03-14 08:35 the openwrt will release new release later this year. 2011-03-14 08:35 for example, alsa-lib wasn't tested against 0.9.30.* 2011-03-14 08:35 therefore such problems 2011-03-14 08:35 and then, alsa-utils won't build at all 2011-03-14 08:36 makes me wonder how such commits get there 2011-03-14 08:37 kyak: my plan is 2011-03-14 08:37 2.6.37 is in the very strange state, too 2011-03-14 08:37 some things don't work 2011-03-14 08:37 some patches are forgotten 2011-03-14 08:39 that is why we need 'prepare'Â Â move to trunk. :) 2011-03-14 08:39 yeah 2011-03-14 08:39 my plan is 2011-03-14 08:39 1. got all those commits: "http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Git#rebaseing_output" by 'git format' 2011-03-14 08:39 'git format-patch' 2011-03-14 08:40 2. remove all commit that relate with 'data/*' 2011-03-14 08:40 3. clean up the kernel patches. (like 2.6.37 problem) 2011-03-14 08:41 4. cleanup the u-boot patches. (for now I only make it work with nanonote. I think it's broken in n516/n526 " 2011-03-14 08:42 5. send ks7010 patch to upstream 2011-03-14 08:43 6. send target/linux/xburst/base-files's patches to upstream 2011-03-14 08:43 7. while(1) {compile;debug;}Â Â :) 2011-03-14 08:44 yeah, it all sounds right 2011-03-14 08:44 8. what do you think we rename the 'data' to 'data-backfire' under 'nanonote-files' 2011-03-14 08:45 9. create a total new 'data' folder. (mean the config* and etc/* stuff) 2011-03-14 08:45 s/mean/i mean 2011-03-14 08:46 do you plan to support backfire? 2011-03-14 08:46 at least keep is compile. 2011-03-14 08:47 I don't know what is the plan on backfire in OpenWrt side when the new release come out 2011-03-14 08:47 maybe it is better not to create the separate data-backfire? If someone wants to build for backfire, he would checkout the according branch of openwrt-packages 2011-03-14 08:48 kyak: yes. that is sound better. since we have the "http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/2011-02-23/VERSIONS" 2011-03-14 08:48 ok. we don't rename it. just release the VERSIONS file and make tag or branch in openwrt-xburst.git 2011-03-14 08:49 yep :) 2011-03-14 08:55 xiangfu_: for example, this commit: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/commit/2f3b198/ is not listed in http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Git#rebaseing_output 2011-03-14 08:55 this is very strange, because the patch itself is sitting i ncorrect place :) 2011-03-14 08:56 xiangfu_: i also can't find this commit in git log 2011-03-14 08:56 i don't know why it happens.. there could be other commit like that, and we can end up missing them? 2011-03-14 08:57 kyak: it's merge to another commit. 2011-03-14 08:58 when rebaseing 2011-03-14 08:59 maybe it is merged when there is conflict. 2011-03-14 08:59 ah, very nice 2011-03-14 08:59 git knows its ways 2011-03-14 09:00 i think after removing the data/ we might have only a few changes from upstream 2011-03-14 09:01 kyak: merged to : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/commit/48cc63a8540276d65746e82334550430da417b3f/ 2011-03-14 09:01 kyak: yes. then we can try to send all those changes to upstream. 2011-03-14 09:02 cool :) 2011-03-14 09:02 how did you find this merge? 2011-03-14 09:03 kyak: git lg 500-modifier-keys.patchÂ Â > a 2011-03-14 09:03 the vim a -->Â Â /Remove --> scroll up --> got the commit SHA. 2011-03-14 09:03 then 2011-03-14 09:04 'git lg' is alias 'git log -p' 2011-03-14 09:04 I have one .gitconfig under home folder: http://pastebin.com/xf3aGLvc 2011-03-14 09:12 hehe, nice :) 2011-03-14 09:12 kyak: I will put the 'trunk' branch to openwrt-xburst.git 2011-03-14 09:13 xiangfu_: so i could git checkout -b origin/trunk? 2011-03-14 09:14 what about name it 'tracking-trunk' 2011-03-14 09:15 is it necessary? do we have another "trunk"? 2011-03-14 09:17 hmm... for more clear :) 2011-03-14 09:17 hm, what is "tracking-backfire" for? 2011-03-14 09:18 no tracking-backfire now. 2011-03-14 09:19 there is 'tracking-backfire' in your local? 2011-03-14 09:19 there only 'history' and 'mater' in server 2011-03-14 09:19 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/ 2011-03-14 09:19 i see it here 2011-03-14 09:19 in my local git br only shows "master" 2011-03-14 09:20 there is also "release_2010-11-17" branch and others 2011-03-14 09:22 there is no "tracking_backfire" in my local. and we delete it for a very long time. 2011-03-14 09:22 so it's for some reason left in web interface 2011-03-14 09:22 you can see it the list of branches 2011-03-14 09:22 hmm... not sure. or maybe someone run 'git push -a' 2011-03-14 09:23 I will delete it. 2011-03-14 09:23 why do we need the "tracking-trunk" anyway? is it temporary, before it becomes the "master"? 2011-03-14 09:23 'release_2010-11-17' is create by Mirko. for release 2010-11-17 2011-03-14 09:24 1. we have to have a 'tracking-trunk' 2011-03-14 09:24 2. then if the Openwrt new Release come out. move the 'master' to 'backfire' 2011-03-14 09:24 3. move the 'tracking-trunk' to 'master' 2011-03-14 09:24 wpwrak aw : I will go for ening then, as wpwrak said ... let's cross our finguers also I will ask to the smt provider for thier opinion but for that I need the smt files to make the question with the quote inquiry... 2011-03-14 09:25 xiangfu_: ok, it's pretty clear 2011-03-14 09:25 xiangfu_: why can't we just drop backfire here and now? :) 2011-03-14 09:26 update "master" to "trunk" 2011-03-14 09:26 by the time openwrt is ready for release, we will be ready, too 2011-03-14 09:27 it seems that fixinf backfire is a waste of time 2011-03-14 09:27 *fixing 2011-03-14 09:28 kyak: it will create a lot of merger . very very hard to cleanup. we can just merge the 'master' branch to 'trunk'.Â Â the git commit history will go crazy. almost un-able to 'rebase' on 'trunk' again. 2011-03-14 09:28 i doubt that it makes sense to release another backfire-based image 2011-03-14 09:28 therefore, all activity in backfire is not needed 2011-03-14 09:29 xiangfu_: yeah, i udnerstand. What i mean is to take the trunk and rebase our commits for backfire on top 2011-03-14 09:30 kyak:oh. 2011-03-14 09:30