2011-03-13 00:00 kristianpaul: well not really :) 2011-03-13 00:00 wpwrak: NN 'StarWars' mod :) 2011-03-13 00:00 n8 guys :) 2011-03-13 00:00 tuxbrain_away: can you reveal the type of 3d printer ? makerbot-ish ? or more like the 10k+ USD desktop thingies ? 2011-03-13 00:01 reprap-ish.. 2011-03-13 00:01 kristianpaul: yeah, that's a better word 2011-03-13 00:01 like the one from bits from bytes? 2011-03-13 00:02 btw, what is relation between reprap and markerbot? 2011-03-13 00:02 (if any) 2011-03-13 00:02 dunno.. 2011-03-13 00:03 well once i time same electronics,but that changed 2011-03-13 00:03 wpwrak: kristianpaul , when time come information will be revealed, but it will not be a 10k+ for sure :) 2011-03-13 00:05 hopefully cheaper yet better then :) 2011-03-13 00:05 cheap, i hope too 2011-03-13 00:05 also wich can mills pcb as wpwrak do 2011-03-13 00:05 and do smt later? ;-) 2011-03-13 00:06 hehe.. soldering machine :) 2011-03-13 00:06 ha, you should see the ones just for reflow 2011-03-13 00:06 < USD 100, prints all kinds of materials including plastics and metals, with color, can print over any cavities, resolution 10 um or better, blindingly fast, very compact, maximum workpiece size something like 50x50x30 cm, yeah, that would be about the specs :) 2011-03-13 00:07 from what dream that came? 2011-03-13 00:07 kristianpaul: (smt) hey, just extrude 20 nm structures :) 2011-03-13 00:08 tuxbrain_away: i wonder if you could get them interested in making a ben case, as a proof of concept project 2011-03-13 00:10 wpwrak: mmm interesting , I will propose :) 2011-03-13 00:10 and they will kill you 2011-03-13 00:10 at leasy you have a good proposal for support material  :-) 2011-03-13 00:10 kristianpaul: if they still do it afterwards, it will be a fine sacrifice :) 2011-03-13 00:10 anyway.. 2011-03-13 00:11 keep us posted 2011-03-13 00:11 kristianpaul: the absence of suitable case-making experience is still a big obstacles on the path to a potential ya 2011-03-13 00:11 why? I'm a lovely guy with shreck's cat on boots eyes 2011-03-13 00:12 kristianpaul: and i think it would be best to develop and test these skills with a known device, namely the ben 2011-03-13 00:12 wpwrak: the files you have will be suitable to do so? 2011-03-13 00:12 wpwrak: That case you be made, by some one with cad skills, and please  parametric ones too 2011-03-13 00:13 wpwrak: a case for the ben boards yes, a similar design for current one, not a cheap copy 2011-03-13 00:13 tuxbrain_away: for making a case ? no, not really. you need to make a proper design first. but you can use them a inputs, to speed up the process 2011-03-13 00:14 kristianpaul: (parametic) oh, totally. anything else would feel prehistoric 2011-03-13 00:15 wpwrak: you already scaned all boards isnt? 2011-03-13 00:15 wpwrak: ok I will aks them , they are not good at electronics (they had asked me for help so judge your self :P) but seem quite pro on mechanical desing let's see I have a meeting with them next week, 2011-03-13 00:16 tuxbrain_away: ()mechanical desing) show then the ben boards, please !! 2011-03-13 00:16 kristianpaul: no, i still need to make a few more scans. i had suspended them because i needed the mill for other stuff, and if i can't dedicate to scanning for at least a week at a time, it doesn't make much sense to even try 2011-03-13 00:16 we need a case with no screws easy to put.. can be ugly at first and shaped later 2011-03-13 00:17 wpwrak: yeah, slow scan is pain.. 2011-03-13 00:17 kristianpaul: and now i also have the problem that the pc with the scanning software (proprietary junk running on windows in a virtualbox) died, so i need to rebuild that setup, too 2011-03-13 00:17 hmm.. 2011-03-13 00:17 kristianpaul: (tried wine, but no luck) 2011-03-13 00:17 tuxbrain_away: (ME skills) that's exactly what's missing on our end :) 2011-03-13 00:18 kristianpaul: I dont understand you about the case can you elaborate? 2011-03-13 00:18 kristianpaul: (no scews) oh, i would use screws. they're much easier to handle than making snap-in parts 2011-03-13 00:18 tuxbrain_away: we have two boards, main one and lcm for ben nanonote 2011-03-13 00:19 wpwrak:(screws) i gues should be betters ways.. i hope 2011-03-13 00:19 tuxbrain_away: lets imagine no case 2011-03-13 00:19 kristianpaul: with snap-on, you also get material dependencies, dynamic behaviour, aging, and so on. that's a lot harder 2011-03-13 00:20 tuxbrain_away: so this guys as are related with mechanical part, sureally arelady have some know how about a case design based on the boards 2011-03-13 00:20 kristianpaul: (snap) and of course, you also get undercuts. just a big mess. no, i love my screws :) 2011-03-13 00:20 kristianpaul: (no case) ok that's easy , imaginated 2011-03-13 00:20 tuxbrain_away: no matter if what they try is ugly or teo speare parts, but make boads fit is hard part 2011-03-13 00:20 wpwrak: ok, screws :-) 2011-03-13 00:21 just print case around board! :) 2011-03-13 00:21 takes out the silicone "gun" 2011-03-13 00:21 noo 2011-03-13 00:21 can also make a blob of hot glue too :P 2011-03-13 00:22 nooo 2011-03-13 00:22 kristianpaul: i wouldn't even worry about longevity. make the case cheap to build, then you can just throw it away when the threads of the holes you screw into fail 2011-03-13 00:22 tuxbrain_away: go and finish your printer :-) 2011-03-13 00:23 ok ok now yes good n8 guys 2011-03-13 00:23 n8 2011-03-13 00:24 now, lemme try to figure out the logic of wolfgang's kicad patch. then i can add the exclude-pcb-edge option, and finally make the pcb fab files with a script 2011-03-13 00:41 oops 2011-03-13 00:48 wolfspraul: almost done :) 2011-03-13 00:49 eh :-) I just started, quite embarassing. 2011-03-13 00:49 I look into the color thing too then. 2011-03-13 00:50 if ( parser.Found( wxT("exclude-pcb-edge") ) ) frame->Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true; 2011-03-13 00:50 something like this should do it, testing... 2011-03-13 00:51 ah, maybe you'll still beat me to it :) 2011-03-13 00:51 i tried the global setting. but that didn't work. thinking of it, i set it to "false" ... 2011-03-13 00:51 sorry g_pcb_plot_options. 2011-03-13 00:52 oh that didn't work? 2011-03-13 00:52 let me do this now, no worries 2011-03-13 00:52 give me 1h, then you can complain again :-) (sorry I have been so slow on this) 2011-03-13 00:53 did you try to set g_pcb_plot_options.Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true; ? 2011-03-13 00:53 that's what i'm trying now 2011-03-13 00:53 without even reading the implementation, I would hope that's the right variable 2011-03-13 00:54 I'll fix the eeschema color problem too 2011-03-13 00:54 yeha, that worked 2011-03-13 00:56 [commit] Werner Almesberger: kicad-patches/exclude-pcb-edge.patch:: added option -e / --exclude-pcb-edge http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/46dbda6 2011-03-13 00:56 here it is 2011-03-13 00:57 that was actually easier than i thought. your approach of handling these things is nicely extensible 2011-03-13 01:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile: generate proper Gerbers (without edge) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e0d8271 2011-03-13 01:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/README-PCB: mention that the back solder mask is empty http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/20717b2 2011-03-13 01:01 wolfspraul: do we have the file package adam sent for smt'ing the jtag board somewhere ? 2011-03-13 01:06 you mean the last jtag-serial run? 2011-03-13 01:06 ok, I will rebase on your -e patch, and fix the eeschema color problem now 2011-03-13 01:07 or just merge my patch. it's simple enough 2011-03-13 01:07 (eeschema color) great ! that one's a fly in the ointment :) 2011-03-13 01:20 kristianpaul, tuxbrain_away: for review: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atben-110219.tar.gz http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atben-110219.zip 2011-03-13 01:22 think twice in seding like gz.. 2011-03-13 01:22 thansk wpwrak ! 2011-03-13 01:22 wpwrak: are you still looking for some file from Adam? which one? jtag-serial run? 2011-03-13 01:24 wolfspraul: yes, for SMT. i don't know what exactly the fabs need for that 2011-03-13 01:24 what i generated now are just the files for making PCBs 2011-03-13 01:28 most important is the AI file I think, automatic insertion 2011-03-13 01:28 wait I think there is a wiki page somewhere 2011-03-13 01:29 just a fragment http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/KiCad_Automatic_Insertion_File 2011-03-13 01:30 here's some more good info http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/JTAG_Serial_Cable_run_1_for_Milkymist_One 2011-03-13 01:31 Engineering files to SMT manufacturer 2011-03-13 01:31 BoM/AI/panel gerber/placement top/placement bottom/parts polarity top/released parts' qty information/page 58 of Soldering reflow profile in FT2232HQ 2011-03-13 01:32 that second wiki page is good, it should have the information you are looking for 2011-03-13 01:32 wpwrak: done, sent info for quoute 2011-03-13 01:32 160usd for 10PCB still expensive i think 2011-03-13 01:32 well they tought the pcb was squared.. 2011-03-13 01:32 (kicad ai) ah, nice, thanks. that's already one item i didn't know. 2011-03-13 01:33 let see how they react witht L like explanation about the pcb 2011-03-13 01:33 kristianpaul: (10 pcb) you may want to ask for larger quantities as well. very often, 100 is basically the same price as 10. 2011-03-13 01:33 i dont money for 100 2011-03-13 01:33 10 is on my limit.. 2011-03-13 01:33 kristianpaul: in the case of UBB, even 100 would have been a bad choice. 500 was only something like 10% more expensive 2011-03-13 01:34 hmm 2011-03-13 01:34 kristianpaul: money for 100 may be only very very little more than money for 10 :) 2011-03-13 01:35 hmm, i dont think so.. 2011-03-13 01:35 kristianpaul: the ubb cost structure for 100 or 500 units was something like EUR 405 + units * EUR 0.17, if i remember this correctly 2011-03-13 01:35 not here but i can try 2011-03-13 01:35 ask dont hurt 2011-03-13 01:35 kristianpaul: it depends on the fab. some have almost linear prices, others have a big setup fee and then a low per unit price 2011-03-13 01:36 it's a pure factor of labor cost 2011-03-13 01:36 one-time fees in the US are a few times higher than one-time fees in Taiwan, where they are still about double the one-time fees in China 2011-03-13 01:36 kristianpaul: e.g., the quite ron got was from a place with a lower fixed cost but high per unit price. that's why the 500 unit cost would have been insane 2011-03-13 01:36 s/quite/quote/ 2011-03-13 01:37 wolfspraul: some places also bundle (small) orders, so they can spread out the setup cost 2011-03-13 01:37 actually if a place like Colombia would get their act together, they could beat China 2011-03-13 01:37 but that's more of a social problem than a technical one 2011-03-13 01:37 yeah.. 2011-03-13 01:38 in China people who earn 5 USD per day come to work nicely every day, don't steal, are not drunk or violent, etc. 2011-03-13 01:38 of course the Chinese society holds draconian measures in place for those that think they have something to complain about a 5 usd / day lifestyle 2011-03-13 01:38 wolfspraul: (2nd link) oh, great. exactly what i was looking for. thanks ! 2011-03-13 01:39 while in Colombia, even though many people survive on 2-3 USD / day, well, the truth is they are violent, steal a lot, etc. no fun running a factory with them. 2011-03-13 01:39 so it's still back to China, I guess... 2011-03-13 01:39 :-) 2011-03-13 01:40 china will build a small town at the north of the cuntry, thats tne romuor.. oh well 2011-03-13 01:40 definitely imaginable 2011-03-13 01:40 they are doing this in a lot of countries 2011-03-13 01:40 kristianpaul: regarding smt, if you want to make a small number if atben, then you may want to consider manual soldering 2011-03-13 01:41 but watch out, it will be CHinese culture there 2011-03-13 01:41 there will be gates, with Chinese guards asking for ID, etc. Colombian police will not go in. 2011-03-13 01:41 kristianpaul: atben isn't too hard to solder, both from the component count and the general difficulty 2011-03-13 01:41 wpwrak: i'lldo manual, soldering 2011-03-13 01:41 smt will blowout my pocket.. 2011-03-13 01:42 kristianpaul: good, then you're on the right track already :) 2011-03-13 01:42 it's already happening massively in south-east asia (say cambodia), where Chinese companies buy huge areas of land, invest billions of USD, and create something like a 'colony' 2011-03-13 01:42 atusb is harder. about twice the number of components, and larger ground areas, so heat loss becomes more of a problem. it's still doable, though. 2011-03-13 01:42 airport, beach resort, vacation homes, etc. 2011-03-13 01:43 Cambodian police will not go into those areas. 2011-03-13 01:43 wolfspraul: so what do they look for there ? just nice beaches ? 2011-03-13 01:43 there are many projects, I guess it differs 2011-03-13 01:43 sometimes precious resources, sometimes vacation investments, etc. 2011-03-13 01:43 but the size is so big, it looks like they buy a chunk of that country, of course 2011-03-13 01:44 what can a country like Cambodia say or do about it? 2011-03-13 01:44 they will just be sidelined 2011-03-13 01:44 the Chinese are coming with billions of USD, high-tech, thousands of workers, etc. etc. 2011-03-13 01:44 and with a huge industrial hinterland (China), that can supply anything they need 2011-03-13 01:45 interesting approach to colonialization 2011-03-13 01:45 first time I hear from kristianpaul that this is also planned in Colombia, but I'm not surprised 2011-03-13 01:45 it's just a little further away :-) 2011-03-13 01:45 they don't see it like that. just an investment. 2011-03-13 01:45 of course they think the locals are poor and lazy. 2011-03-13 01:45 work only 5 days a week, etc. 2011-03-13 01:45 ;-)) 2011-03-13 01:45 so China brings civilization 2011-03-13 01:45 work 4 days a week 2011-03-13 01:45 btw 2011-03-13 01:46 well, exactly. :-) 2011-03-13 01:46 kristianpaul is being civilized by a project from china-based sharism, so that he can work the remaining days of the week, too ;-) 2011-03-13 01:46 :-) 2011-03-13 01:47 in Cambodia they are doing 99 year leases 2011-03-13 01:47 just like Hong Kong, so funny 2011-03-13 01:47 where the China propaganda machine cannot stop complaining about that 2011-03-13 01:47 they do exactly the same 2011-03-13 01:47 let's see whether they return properly in 99 years, as the British did 2011-03-13 01:47 well, we won't see, I guess. 2011-03-13 01:48 I would have big doubts though. 2011-03-13 01:49 by then, they'll have assimilated the rest of the country anyway ;-) 2011-03-13 01:50 the last chunk they cut out of Cambodia was about 1/3rd the size of Hong Kong, several times the size of Macau. 2011-03-13 01:50 kristianpaul: let's build copyleft hardware in the non-China part of Colombia, eh? we don't need to go to that new city :-) 2011-03-13 01:51 actually i hope all still as rumour 2011-03-13 01:51 and i live in the south 2011-03-13 01:51 nah, makes perfect sense. 2011-03-13 01:51 this is happening everywhere, Chinese companies are looking for investments everywhere 2011-03-13 01:51 away from such us dangers ;-) 2011-03-13 01:51 and they will protect their investments 2011-03-13 01:51 i wonder if the "buy chunks of a country" approach is better or worse than the "just buy the politicans" approach of the west 2011-03-13 01:52 in the end, it may all end up in the same pockets, of course 2011-03-13 01:55 wolfspraul: I'm hapy in where i live, so no need to move, well just for working to the capital, but thats 4 days no more 2011-03-13 01:55 we're just kidding, no worries. 2011-03-13 01:55 sure 2011-03-13 01:55 Chinese culture is horribly unattractive to anyone who has seen life outside. 2011-03-13 01:55 so that whole process will come to a halt because the Chinese themselves will realize life is about more than piling up money. 2011-03-13 01:56 btw, there's one footprint in atben/atusb i'm not so sure about yet. that's the balun. i used the recommended land pattern, but it barely reaches the bottom of the contacts. you have plenty of room on the side, though. 2011-03-13 01:56 with 'Chinese culture' I mean the special characteristics as implemented by the so called communists right now. That nonsense will stop sooner or later :-) 2011-03-13 01:56 so this may not be very smt-friendly. for manual soldering, you don't have much of a problem, though 2011-03-13 01:57 kristianpaul: what are you trying to manufacture? 2011-03-13 01:57 more ubbs? 2011-03-13 01:57 nooo 2011-03-13 01:57 :-) 2011-03-13 01:57 atben 2011-03-13 01:57 oh 2011-03-13 01:57 i like what's happening - when wolfgang doesn't move quickly enough, others do ;-) 2011-03-13 01:58 first PCB if all went okay, order from digikey 2011-03-13 01:58 and DIY SMT 2011-03-13 01:58 which is of course precisely what open design hw should enable to happen 2011-03-13 01:58 so the plan works :) 2011-03-13 01:59 He the plan include sell some board to university 2011-03-13 01:59 awesome! 2011-03-13 01:59 local university** 2011-03-13 01:59 but let see 2011-03-13 02:00 i go slow, as money allow :-) 2011-03-13 02:00 kristianpaul: even better if it actually generates revenue :) 2011-03-13 02:01 ;-) 2011-03-13 02:03 wolfspraul: there are bens sold to ecuador or venezuela? 2011-03-13 02:03 i dont found in wiki, but asking just in case 2011-03-13 02:04 wpwrak: in eeschema_scripted.cpp, there is a line g_DrawBgColor = BLACK; Can you try commenting that out? 2011-03-13 02:04 I did and it seems the .ps output is still good. 2011-03-13 02:05 removing that line should keep the background color untouched (I guess the variable is persisted some time during app exit) 2011-03-13 02:05 kristianpaul: there only were 1 or 2 fraudulent orders from those countries :-) 2011-03-13 02:05 (no deliveries) 2011-03-13 02:06 like I said, the Chinese will come and bring some civilization. You just wait :-) 2011-03-13 02:09 wolfspraul: (black) let's see ... 2011-03-13 02:09 ah, shame 2011-03-13 02:12 from the little I learnt when I was there, I'd say Colombia is by far the one with the most potential, and most fertile breeding ground. 2011-03-13 02:12 if it doesn't work in Colombia, for sure it won't work in Venezuela or Ecuador. 2011-03-13 02:12 of course there can be pioneers everywhere... 2011-03-13 02:14 wolfspraul: (pcbnew and black) looks good 2011-03-13 02:14 eeschema 2011-03-13 02:14 oh ;-) 2011-03-13 02:14 kristianpaul: you can try contacting Carlos, why not? :-) 2011-03-13 02:14 i was wondering why pcbnew :) 2011-03-13 02:15 wolfspraul: Carlos? what for?ah, you mean atben? sure i will 2011-03-13 02:15 wait - it fixed your problem or not? 2011-03-13 02:15 I saw the color issue in eeschema. is there another one in pcbnew? 2011-03-13 02:15 kristianpaul: yes, for atben. 2011-03-13 02:16 wolfspraul: pcbnew already defaults to black. not sure if there would be one if you changed that 2011-03-13 02:16 wolfspraul: eeschema looks good. the color bug is gone 2011-03-13 02:17 ok great. I really apologize that I was so crazy slow on this. 2011-03-13 02:17 5 lines for exclude-edges, 1 line for eeschema color. 2011-03-13 02:17 that should have been done in an hour weeks ago, oh well.. 2011-03-13 02:17 yeah, it was a little odd ;) 2011-03-13 02:19 i don't even see a way to change the bg color in pcbnew. so the setting to black is probably harmless. (doesn't seem to accomplish anything either, though) 2011-03-13 02:20 the worst is that I got really good feedback on the kicad list but haven't done anything since 2011-03-13 02:20 need to speedup... 2011-03-13 02:21 wpwrak: is drc also avaliable by command line btw? 2011-03-13 02:21 yes 2011-03-13 02:21 food :-) 2011-03-13 02:21 good** 2011-03-13 02:21 and the plan was to automate that on the server too, another nice todo item. 2011-03-13 02:22 in fact the jtag-serial high-speed bug showed that that is a good idea :-) 2011-03-13 02:23 auto-drc may benefit from a filtering mechanism, too. e.g., atben/atusb don't pass DRC, because of the antenna 2011-03-13 02:23 and ERC has even more false positives 2011-03-13 02:24 okay, but you can override the atena warnings, isnt? 2011-03-13 02:24 antenna** 2011-03-13 02:24 i can just ignore them :-) 2011-03-13 02:25 ok 2011-03-13 02:37 for review (pcb fab files): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusb-110214.tar.gz http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusb-110214.zip 2011-03-13 02:38 dont want to mess with usb for now 2011-03-13 02:40 kristianpaul: it's kinda useful to be able to talk to your pc :) 2011-03-13 02:42 i know... 2011-03-13 02:42 but i'll ignore that for now 2011-03-13 02:43 ;-) 2011-03-13 02:47 ah, and i need some hack to put the version number on copper and silk screen 2011-03-13 02:48 wonders if more recent versions of kicad don't have such a thing already. seems rather useful 2011-03-13 02:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile: cleanup and a small bug fix http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6bbe3bf 2011-03-13 02:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: added fab file generation, like in atben http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cdf3825 2011-03-13 03:55 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: mupdf compile fine now. remove useless fonts and cmaps, not test yet http://qi-hw.com/p/UNNAMED PROJECT/acd1023 2011-03-13 03:57 why my project is "UNNAMED PROJECT" ? 2011-03-13 04:37 xiangfu: there's a 'description' file, wait I update it... 2011-03-13 04:40 xiangfu: I updated it, in /home/git/repositories/m1s.git/description 2011-03-13 04:40 Indefero should do it automatically, but it doesn't... 2011-03-13 04:41 wolfspraul: thanks 2011-03-13 06:03 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: a simple work version http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/239193d 2011-03-13 07:29 [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: merged Werner's patch, fixed eeschema background color bug http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/a074fa1 2011-03-13 07:38 wpwrak: are smt files already in the tar.gz/files you send? 2011-03-13 07:39 tuxbrain_away: no, not yet 2011-03-13 07:39 wpwrak:  ok I will wait until you send this to me. 2011-03-13 07:40 tuxbrain_away: also note that the pcb files may still change a little. namely, with a size change of one footprint 2011-03-13 07:40 tuxbrain_away: will the place that did the pcbs also do the smt ? 2011-03-13 07:41 curious about that one. I'd say it's very unlikely. for some reason pcb factories and smt factories always seem separate. 2011-03-13 07:41 unless you take the giants like foxconn, who have everything somewhere (still separate subsidiaries, of course) 2011-03-13 07:42 maybe it's the skillset? maybe the lack of overlap in capital expenditure? don't know... 2011-03-13 07:42 some pcb makers will offer you to take care of smt though, by involving a partner company 2011-03-13 07:43 wolfspraul: new patch set works like a charm. thanks ! 2011-03-13 07:44 (different companies) maybe because there's very little overlap in the actual activities 2011-03-13 07:45 also, pcbs are easier to ship around than component stock. 2011-03-13 07:47 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile (gen): corrected use of --plot (for style - not really used) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7ef1c09 2011-03-13 08:11 yes, the shippability may also be a factor 2011-03-13 08:12 pcb is often remote, smt rarely/never 2011-03-13 08:12 but let's see what tuxbrain says, I'm very curious about the answer. 2011-03-13 08:12 do many smt houses offer to buy/stock components for you ? 2011-03-13 08:13 always like to understand what kind of services are clustered where and how, because we need to know the reasons in order to make best use of them 2011-03-13 08:13 only very basic parts, like smd passive components 2011-03-13 08:13 yeah. just "it's all easier in china" may not always be true 2011-03-13 08:13 anything unique/special to your product you need to hand in 2011-03-13 08:14 oh of course not. people who say 'it's all easier in china' just document how little they know about China. 2011-03-13 08:14 ;-) 2011-03-13 08:14 but it's sooo cheap :) 2011-03-13 08:15 yeah. especially if it's crap, or doesn't work. 2011-03-13 08:15 Chinese themselves know very well, that's why the streets are full of (real) Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc. 2011-03-13 08:15 :-) 2011-03-13 08:15 and the occasional Ferrari and Lamborghini, I may add 2011-03-13 08:16 i think the realization that not all is gold in china also reached western firms by now, but it certainly took them long enough 2011-03-13 08:16 and the less scrupulous merchants still make a good buck on defunct junk 2011-03-13 08:17 yes but I think many buyers get what they deserve. 2011-03-13 08:17 my sympathy is with the Chinese there. 2011-03-13 08:17 mine is also with the end customers, who don't even get a choice 2011-03-13 08:18 fair enough. in a perfect world nobody would touch knowingly broken/defective stuff. 2011-03-13 08:19 but yes, the chinese are doing everything right. the fools demand, they supply 2011-03-13 08:21 yes. isn't it amazing that some people want consumer electronics where the smt and pcb fabrication is staffed by totally clueless 17 year old kids, who have fun playing with the many buttons? 2011-03-13 08:21 at least the western consumers finance a big 'learning by doing' program that way 2011-03-13 08:21 I try to see the positive side. the kids are having fun, and underage is watched. so be it then... 2011-03-13 08:22 some of them are really laughing at the defunct crap they are producing, there are a lot of funny youtube videos and blog posts along these lines. 2011-03-13 08:22 what can they do, eventually they will figure out how this all works, then they are ready for the next better company... 2011-03-13 08:30 one thing I find interesting. this china thing has made many western companies not know anymore what they are producing, even why I think. 2011-03-13 08:31 well, as long as they're having fun :) 2011-03-13 08:32 and most customers probably don't understand just how things could go wrong anyway. they just see things that inexplicably fail. 2011-03-13 08:32 well but the drive towards cheap means they are changing things faster than the software side, even marketing side, can catch up to 2011-03-13 08:32 so it all becomes a very automated industry. good thing we have apple, who act like a global loudspeaker. 2011-03-13 08:33 so when apple comes out with something new, everybody else of the brain-disconnected companies suddenly knows what the next big thing is they are supposed to do. 2011-03-13 08:33 apple is still a very high-margin company. quite different from the bottom feeders that flood the market with junk 2011-03-13 08:33 even though by themselves, they have no communication channels anymore to get any complex thought communicated 2011-03-13 08:33 oh, yes. the herd effect is amazing 2011-03-13 08:33 yes but that's my point. there are no more communication channels :-) 2011-03-13 08:33 who needs cartels if you have steve jobs ? :) 2011-03-13 08:33 the people that would understand have been cut (too expensive) 2011-03-13 08:34 so it's all in auto-pilot mode 2011-03-13 08:34 you cannot communicate any complex new idea down the supply chain 2011-03-13 08:34 where 'complex' can be brutally simple actually, given where things stand nowadays 2011-03-13 08:35 so if you want to work with suppliers that have not cut such people, it's immediately more expensive (china or otherwise). 2011-03-13 08:35 of course 2011-03-13 08:35 so the question is how long the bottom feeders really can compete 2011-03-13 08:36 a software engineer working for a foreign company in Shanghai will now make 2500 USD or more 2011-03-13 08:36 both in terms of demand (which may exist forever) but also in terms of denying their betters access to the market 2011-03-13 08:36 that's his (more or less) net salary, so for the company it's at least 4000 USD 2011-03-13 08:37 these are normal rates for (good) graduate students (say guys that can really do engineering) 2011-03-13 08:37 doesn't sound too bad 2011-03-13 08:37 you just need to do a little math to understand that many low marging hardware suppliers have no room for such people 2011-03-13 08:37 no room = no money 2011-03-13 08:38 so how do they keep their factory running? :-) 2011-03-13 08:38 magic? 2011-03-13 08:38 he he 2011-03-13 08:38 I know how :-) 2011-03-13 08:38 excuses ? ;-) 2011-03-13 08:38 nah 2011-03-13 08:38 hire someone for 800 USD / month, or less 2011-03-13 08:38 and then close your eyes, and close them hard 2011-03-13 08:39 excuses :) 2011-03-13 08:40 wpwrak: with 'access to market' you mean access to China market? 2011-03-13 08:41 access to China market depends a lot on each industry, it's tightly regulated. for consumer electronics, there are no problems getting in, _IF_ you pay the high import taxes (and consequently the Chinese consumers are willing to pay them as well) 2011-03-13 08:41 you know the whole business of the 'export zones', and how expensive it is to get a product from an export zone into China proper 2011-03-13 08:41 but other than high taxes, the market (in consumer electronics) is very open and very competitive 2011-03-13 08:42 I recently bought a Samsung video projector, 'made in china'. The price at amazon.com would have been about 2800 RMB (4xx USD), I paid 4400 RMB in China (that was a good price after searching). 2011-03-13 08:43 that's a 57% markup! 2011-03-13 08:43 (market access) more the international market. china market is tricky 2011-03-13 08:43 but foreign brands are still selling very well in China 2011-03-13 08:44 the Chinese government is making the most of this product, for sure 2011-03-13 08:44 (market access) e.g., better quality products being replaced by cheap ones, thus the more expensive but good companies dying 2011-03-13 08:44 not sure where this is happening. if 'better quality' is actually meaningful, it won't be replaced. 2011-03-13 08:45 (57% markup) in argentina, we get 100% or more for consumer electronics ... 2011-03-13 08:45 not all 'better quality' is actually better though, and the Chinese are trying hard every day to find that additional little thing that you can leave out without hurting functionality. 2011-03-13 08:45 sometimes they go too far in that search, but luckily there are consumers ready to finance this activity :-) 2011-03-13 08:46 that's how I see it. You cannot scale broken. definitely not. 2011-03-13 08:46 broken is an anomaly, though if you can find consumers that help you mitigate the costs of broken, then why not... 2011-03-13 08:46 (better quality) oh, when you can buy a screwdriver that will crack under high load or corrode quickly for price X or one that will last much longer for price 2 X, it may be difficult for the average customer to decide on buying the latter 2011-03-13 08:47 thus the better company loses the non-expert customers 2011-03-13 08:47 maybe many people buy screwdrivers they never use, or only once a year 2011-03-13 08:48 my bottom line is: I don't think 'China' as a phenomenom is in any way a prerequisite for successful copyleft hardware. 2011-03-13 08:48 it's just a country, like many others 2011-03-13 08:48 it's not true that 'things' are cheaper in China 2011-03-13 08:48 that too. but of course, with the market getting flooded by the cheap ones, it also gets hard on the buyer side to get anything better 2011-03-13 08:48 once we have stabilized our knowledge platform, we may even be able to be cheaper outside of China. the overhead in China is still bad, and not getting better. 2011-03-13 08:48 they probably are, where a lot of unskilled labour is enough 2011-03-13 08:49 yup. we're far from unskilled labour 2011-03-13 08:49 what we find boring, we automate :) 2011-03-13 13:59 wolfspraul, ping :-) 2011-03-13 14:02 panda|x201: yes, still here. 2011-03-13 16:28 wifispy dont look that bad at all 2011-03-13 16:29 the price it is.. 2011-03-13 16:34 well.. its not a measuring tool. rather a 'estimation meter' 2011-03-13 16:36 yeah.. 2011-03-13 16:45 Anyone interested hacking on a NanoNote music-player project? 2011-03-13 16:54 I think I just started an awesome one by accident, but I don't know how much time I'm going to be able to give it right now. 2011-03-13 17:03 rozzin: there is "gmu" already, what could have been better? :) 2011-03-13 17:06 ROCKBOX 2011-03-13 17:07 :D 2011-03-13 17:07 It has ROCK in the name 2011-03-13 17:07 http://identi.ca/conversation/66029812 2011-03-13 17:07 This got me all jazzed up 2011-03-13 17:08 should i rename Gmu into RockGmu? ;D 2011-03-13 17:08 but MPD rely on networks 2011-03-13 17:08 wejp: could be :-) 2011-03-13 17:08 :D 2011-03-13 17:08 wejp name it rockrock 2011-03-13 17:08 lol 2011-03-13 17:08 :) 2011-03-13 17:08 kristianpaul: MPD works perfectly find on a loopback socket. 2011-03-13 17:08 rozzin: yeah, i was thiking that too 2011-03-13 17:09 at least it could allow me to swich to other apps 2011-03-13 17:09 rozzin: at home is on a separate machine, but yeah loopback is valida 2011-03-13 17:09 kristianpaul: I's how I'm running it, right now. 2011-03-13 17:09 you can siwtch to other apps with gmu too 2011-03-13 17:10 switch 2011-03-13 17:10 wejp: oh, yeah?? 2011-03-13 17:10 alt + .. 2011-03-13 17:10 yes, just change the terminal 2011-03-13 17:10 ha, i was afraid to try just to not lost the track of my song.. :-) 2011-03-13 17:10 good to know 2011-03-13 17:10 yeah, works nicely :) 2011-03-13 17:10 It's a lot less work to hook GJay into MPD than into GMU. 2011-03-13 17:11 with the latest version of gmu it also does no longer turn off the screen when in gmu is running in the backround 2011-03-13 17:11 rozzin: you could ask to the list, music player alternatives are always wellcome i think 2011-03-13 17:11 Mostly because I already did the GJay+MPD part. ;) 2011-03-13 17:11 shit 2011-03-13 17:11 oops 2011-03-13 17:12 B_Lizzard: rockbox menu is written in wich language? 2011-03-13 17:12 The work that remains is all getting GJay integrated into openwrt. 2011-03-13 17:12 I think most of Rockbox is either assembly or C 2011-03-13 17:12 rozzin: upstream yeap :-) 2011-03-13 17:12 Um, it's both assembly and C 2011-03-13 17:12 That's what I meant 2011-03-13 17:12 I guess the menu is in C 2011-03-13 17:12 And possibly modularising-out all of the stuff that's not useful on the NanoNote. 2011-03-13 17:12 But Rockbox ain't Linux 2011-03-13 17:13 It's an OS in itself. 2011-03-13 17:13 ah.. 2011-03-13 17:13 wow 2011-03-13 17:13 nice :-) 2011-03-13 17:13 it will boot reallt fast on the nanonote i bet 2011-03-13 17:13 Probably yeah 2011-03-13 17:13 I say to hell with this Linux crap 2011-03-13 17:13 And maybe switching GJay's DB format from XML to sqlite or something, depending on how it ends up performing. 2011-03-13 17:14 Use plain text! 2011-03-13 17:14 yes please 2011-03-13 17:14 XML sucketh. 2011-03-13 17:15 Maybe we could port Emacs OS on the nanonote 2011-03-13 17:16 what? 2011-03-13 17:16 noo ;-) 2011-03-13 17:16 B_Lizzard: having to spend 15 seconds loading 3 MB of `plain text' on every playlist-refresh doesn't sound all that much better than having to spend 30 seconds loading 4 MB of XML. 2011-03-13 17:16 Ugh 2011-03-13 17:16 3MB of plain text? 2011-03-13 17:17 That's a big-ass playlist. 2011-03-13 17:17 :) 2011-03-13 17:17 B_Lizzard: Though, if you're offering to help, I'll take you up on the offer regardless of what DB-format you think you want to use. 2011-03-13 17:17 I get your point. 2011-03-13 17:17 B_Lizzard: That's not the playlist. That's the DB of song-metadata. 2011-03-13 17:17 Um, I'm not even sure what you're doing, sir. 2011-03-13 17:17 Ah, a mixing thing? 2011-03-13 17:18 B_Lizzard: See the URL I dropped earlier. 2011-03-13 17:20 Hm. I seem to have dropped the useful commentary from the script. 2011-03-13 17:20 goes and finds it, puts it back in... 2011-03-13 17:21 B_Lizzard: 12:16 < stripwax> yep, if it runs linux, then it could run the rockbox sdl app. 2011-03-13 17:21 from #rockbox 2011-03-13 17:22 Ah, didn't know about that 2011-03-13 17:22 *blood pressure rises* 2011-03-13 17:22 xMff: when you have some time, could you have a look at https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9044, please 2011-03-13 17:26 Fixed: http://www.hackerposse.com/~rozzin/mpdjay 2011-03-13 17:27 I was going to work on copying the GJay algorithms into Rockbox, a few years ago, 2011-03-13 17:27 but I didn't get any significant part of it done before I ended up deciding that Rockbox was a dead end. 2011-03-13 17:28 That may not be true anymore. 2011-03-13 17:28 MPD+GJay+ncmpc/NanoNote actually seems pretty viable right now, though, 2011-03-13 17:29 and mostly more desirable than Rockbox. 2011-03-13 17:29 http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2010-08/0097.shtml 2011-03-13 17:31 I totally don't get the concept of an `Android port'. 2011-03-13 17:33 Ah, I see--Android actually had the native kit by that point. 2011-03-13 17:33 Was going to say, `how does rewriting the entire system from scratch in a different language qualify as a port?'. 2011-03-13 17:37 Anyway; the solicitation is out there. :) 2011-03-13 17:53 Yow--no lack of traffic on the discussion list. 2011-03-13 18:37 [commit] kyak: catch up with alsa-lib from openwrt feeds, fix versionsort http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/67a7082 2011-03-13 21:00 yay! the author of the avr-toolchain script where I had based to do the mipsel avr toolchain has bough 2 NN :) 2011-03-13 21:01 /s/bough/bought 2011-03-13 21:21 tuxbrain_away: great ! 2011-03-13 21:21 tuxbrain_away: you are good making sales ;-) 2011-03-13 21:22 well not not the amount in that case what makes me so exicited.. is the client and his positive feedback on the avrfreaks forum  what makes me happy :) 2011-03-13 21:29 thats potencially more sales ! ;) 2011-03-13 21:30 You're asking fro avrfreaks nock you door last night, woah ! that was fast 2011-03-13 21:30 nock and bouhgt 2011-03-13 21:36 mmm I think I have found what I was searching for about SPI slave on AVR ... now I have just to understand it and translate the master part to  to 8:10 gpios http://www.rocketnumbernine.com/2009/07/03/using-spi-on-an-avr-3/ 2011-03-13 21:41 YAY! twice , blog post confirmed to apear in the Arduino oficial blog! :) 2011-03-13 22:03 wpwrak: do you thing it will worth the meaning once produced to present atben/atusb in some way to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lowpan/charter/ guys? 2011-03-13 22:04 at least to point to us if there is any linux oficial implematation of the protocol on going somewhere? 2011-03-13 22:05 and/or any other hardware alredy on the market using 6Lowpan 2011-03-13 22:21 mmm if this can be done with just an micro and an tiny lcd... what can we achieve with a NN? http://labs.teague.com/?p=933 well regards and good night :) going to sleep, tomorrow I have some NN to send :) 2011-03-13 22:55 tuxbrain_away: (6lowpan) it's probably not very appropriate to do outright advertizing. but if you participate there, you may be able to drop the name :) 2011-03-13 22:56 tuxbrain_away: (official linux) afaik, there's nothing that works very well. and certainly not in mainline. the linux-related action (very little of it) is on linux-zigbee 2011-03-13 22:57 tuxbrain_away: there are some devices on the market, some of which even work with linux. they're usually targetted at having more local intelligence, though, so they're more complex, more expensive, etc.