2011-02-24 01:08 hm. routing to chandra seems broken 2011-02-24 01:37 hmm, today's yield so far, 2 dead atusb (one killed by stupidity, the other by mysterious forces of evil), plus one halfway done that hasn't revealed any fatal flaw yet. 2011-02-24 01:56 zrafa: (no get the original thread mail), thats odd.. 2011-02-24 01:56 zrafa: before that you got the Art program mail? 2011-02-24 02:11 zrafa: i think there were some problems yesterday at the hoster that - i think - hosts both openmoko and qi-hardware 2011-02-24 02:12 zrafa: also, openmoko's mail server is currently down/unreachable 2011-02-24 02:13 needs a nagios as a service... 2011-02-24 03:06 wpwrak: qi was down? 2011-02-24 03:06 I didn't get any notification - the notification service checks every 3 minutes. 2011-02-24 03:06 a variety of services (smtp, ssh, http, etc) 2011-02-24 03:17 wolfspraul: i think it was a network problem. i tried to access the mailing list archive and only got extremely slow responses or timeouts. 2011-02-24 03:21 are the qi and openmoko servers related? I mean, if they live on the same datacenter or house :) 2011-02-24 03:23 zrafa: not sure, they are at the same hosting company at least. roh said the hoster is good (at some point), and I listened :-) 2011-02-24 03:23 that's a big hosting company though, with 3 datacenters in different cities in Germany 2011-02-24 03:23 200 gbit/second outward connections with 10+ peering partners 2011-02-24 03:24 zrafa: traceroute lists.qi-hardware.com -> hos-tr4.ex3k7.rz13.hetzner.de ... turandot.qi-hardware.com 2011-02-24 03:24 zrafa: mail.openmoko.org -> hos-tr4.ex3k2.rz13.hetzner.de ... static.88-198-23-33.clients.your-server.de (and then loops) 2011-02-24 03:25 zrafa: so they may even be in the same room :) 2011-02-24 03:26 wolfspraul: I am not complaining anyway ;) (about qi services).. I just complained openmoko community. I asked them, after openmoko MLs were down for several days, about if they have ideas or suggestions to continue living (and for example, if they have some ideas about how to have another openmoko ML better), but no one of them replied my mail. I felt really bad about .. nobody replied. All the people continued writting mails to openmoko ML like if nothi 2011-02-24 03:27 wolfspraul: now.. openmoko MLs are down again.. fff 2011-02-24 03:27 wpwrak: same room: I see :) 2011-02-24 03:28 maybe 2011-02-24 03:29 the openmoko servers are in a difficult situation 2011-02-24 03:29 basically their setup is very maintenance heavy, and nobody can invest the time needed to reduce the maintenance effort 2011-02-24 03:29 wolfspraul: yes, that is why I asked people/community for ideas or suggestions. 2011-02-24 03:29 meanwhile afaik even the hosting of the servers is paid from private donations, just for goodwill 2011-02-24 03:30 zrafa: so what do the answers tell you? :-) 2011-02-24 03:30 wolfspraul: we just lost chandra. got rooted, nobody noticed. just killed all the rootkits 2011-02-24 03:31 wolfspraul: the "no answers" tell me that people is okey using openmoko ML if it is still there.. if it is down for ever they are okey. 2011-02-24 03:31 ouch, I see 2011-02-24 03:31 zrafa: i think the intent to get them back online is there. just not the time 2011-02-24 03:32 how did the rooting happen? 2011-02-24 03:32 any clues? 2011-02-24 03:32 roh: no no.. I am happy with all the work people have done with openmoko services. I would like to see more people of community trying to discuss some ideas about how to continue 2011-02-24 03:34 zrafa: i think the easiest way is to get the important services into a 'care-take-able' status. less work than setting all stuff up from zero. more than null. 2011-02-24 03:35 its mostly a 'bitrot' problem. we still got loads of lennys around 2011-02-24 03:35 wolfspraul: the exim thing. 2011-02-24 03:35 wolfspraul: had it before, but didnt check closely enough. the other machine was 'broken' (wget misbehaved) so we noticed and fixed it. 2011-02-24 03:35 oh 2011-02-24 03:36 that one.. well.. the person a) cleaned up properly behind him in step1, and just got an account. then nothing for >6 weeks 2011-02-24 03:36 so there are actual rootkits scanning the net to go after the debian/exim-4.69 remote root vulnerability? 2011-02-24 03:36 thus we didnt notice it. 2011-02-24 03:36 wolfspraul: yes there are. beware. 2011-02-24 03:36 good thing I was on 100% alert when I saw it. 2011-02-24 03:36 oh I reacted within minutes :-) 2011-02-24 03:36 wolfspraul: we got attached a day after is was in the milw0rm package 2011-02-24 03:37 eh attacked 2011-02-24 03:37 first removed exim on some servers where it wasn't needed. switched to postfix on others. applied some workaround that was proposed, and a day later upgraded to the official Debian fix. 2011-02-24 03:37 I've had my share of rootings in the past, so the adrenalin kicks in right away :-) 2011-02-24 03:38 hey, I've even shipped viruses to customers ages ago (on floppy disks). that was painful. 2011-02-24 03:38 postfix isnt any better when it comes to security. its all code in C 2011-02-24 03:38 big recall, won't forget. 2011-02-24 03:38 yes sure, I just tried to immediately do something about the root exploit, which sounded really scary. 2011-02-24 03:38 and now I learn some om servers got rooted - phew 2011-02-24 03:39 I gotta be more careful still. 2011-02-24 03:40 reminds me.. need to move all my remaining crap into openvz vms 2011-02-24 03:41 rebooting hw remotely is still sucky. so minimize the amount of hw without vm system 2011-02-24 03:44 roh: so I didn't get it. some om servers are now down for good? 2011-02-24 03:48 down for now. need gismo to get routing back on 2011-02-24 04:01 hmm, how i like my sendmail ... 2011-02-24 04:22 wpwrak: yay. get rooted even faster with even olfer exploits 2011-02-24 04:28 roh: seems that the last major vulnerability was in 2003 :) 2011-02-24 04:31 wpwrak: if you want to be sure. use qmail 2011-02-24 04:31 i just were to lazy to set it up. 2011-02-24 04:32 naw, never change a running system :) 2011-02-24 04:32 i still use a djbdns binary from 2004 2011-02-24 04:32 tinydns that is. 2011-02-24 04:33 and on my port 80, i have awhttpd. unlike apache, there it's quite feasible to review every single line of the code yourself ;-) 2011-02-24 04:33 dunno that one. i use lighty in such cases. 2011-02-24 04:34 but sometimes there is no way around apache. svn-dav.. webdav in general... 2011-02-24 04:35 no features is really easy 2011-02-24 04:36 yeah, awhttp is very light on features. you can ask for a file and if it exists, you'll get it. that's about all :) 2011-02-24 04:38 hm.. for that one can use fnord very well.. or lighty without modules 2011-02-24 04:47 (fnord) hah, http://www.fefe.de/fnord/ -> "fnord 1.6 contained a buffer overrun in the CGI code." 2011-02-24 04:47 that's what you get for implementing such fancy nonsense ! :) 2011-02-24 07:12 kyak: I just had a look at the code in qt, which does the fontdir scanning 2011-02-24 07:13 it shouldn't be to hard to make it recursive 2011-02-24 07:56 larsc: that's good news! you could make it both recursive and using /usr/share/fonts. Maybe it will even be accepted by upstream? ;) 2011-02-24 08:05 they don't accept any code except you sign some contributer agreement 2011-02-24 08:06 i thought so 2011-02-24 08:09 you could still report it as a wishlist bug 2011-02-24 09:03 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: Easy Tic-Tac-Toe game http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a0b6f78 2011-02-24 09:05 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: Easy Tic-Tac-Toe game http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7af1552 2011-02-24 13:26 jow_laptop, xMff: if it helps you in any way, here is the patch that made pango build for me: http://pastebin.mandriva.com/21994 2011-02-24 13:26 ltmain.sh is a piece of unknown shit to me 2011-02-24 13:27 and for some reason it spreads its version of libtool everywhere else 2011-02-24 13:30 i've added this info to original byg report here : https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8813 2011-02-24 13:37 now let's see if w3m is really capable of drawing images in gtk2.. 2011-02-24 13:40 kyak: do you know if there a way can switch back to kernel default font after run 'setfont' or 'setfont2' ? 2011-02-24 13:41 xiangfu: i thought about it. Seems there is no way, because the kernel font is a C file, built-in kernel 2011-02-24 13:41 kyak: BTW: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/2011-02-23/. it's a clean build. and it's for stable release 2011-02-24 13:42 oh, ver good. i think i will reflash it, not just opkg upgrade 2011-02-24 13:42 kyak: yes. the kernel font is binary inside kernel. or maybe we can find a similar 6x11 font for 'setfont' for now the smallest for 'setfont' is 8x** 2011-02-24 13:43 kyak: I am not send email to list. maybe tomorrow. I will do a little test. 2011-02-24 13:43 xiangfu: we could do it like this: 2011-02-24 13:43 setfont -o filename (to save the default kernel font) 2011-02-24 13:44 then we can always restore it by setfont filename 2011-02-24 13:44 this is theory 2011-02-24 13:44 downloads the images and SDK to notebook, the network connect slow today. 18K/s, it's always 300K/s 2011-02-24 13:44 kyak: thanks . testing now. 2011-02-24 13:45 xiangfu: btw, have you tried the ter-v12n font? 2011-02-24 13:45 kyak: don't know that one. 2011-02-24 13:45 it give us 53x20 term and, it looks very nice 2011-02-24 13:45 it is from terminus-font 2011-02-24 13:46 setfont /usr/share/kbd/consolefonts/ter-v12n.psf 2011-02-24 13:46 kyak: you rock. setfont -o filename; setfont2 ...; setfont filename works just fine. 2011-02-24 13:47 cool! 2011-02-24 13:47 i like ter-v12n also because it has cyrillic glyphs :) 2011-02-24 13:47 kyak: seems terminus fonts are well-known only on cyrillic side :) 2011-02-24 13:48 is using ter-v16n in kexecboot UI now 2011-02-24 13:48 Jay7: well, it's defintiely super popular in Russia :) but it also has a very wide range of other supported alphabets 2011-02-24 13:49 do you think the qi server slow today?? 2011-02-24 13:49 kyak: ok 2011-02-24 13:49 think it's not my network problem. 2011-02-24 13:52 Jay7: how is your progress? Do you have it working well now? 2011-02-24 13:52 kyak: I hope today we will have OE recipe for kexecboot for NN 2011-02-24 13:53 ter-v12n.psf is better. 2011-02-24 13:53 oh good! it should be a piece of cake then porting it to openwrt 2011-02-24 13:55 xiangfu: btw.. i wanted to ask you - could you type some meaningfull text with kinyin? If it's really working fine, then we could add the screenshot to wiki 2011-02-24 13:55 hope to fit with kexecboot into Feb's news update ;) 2011-02-24 13:55 i can type something. But i'm not sure, i have a good chance of typing some bad chinese words :) 2011-02-24 13:56 kyak: since I still using the old QT. not update. so I don't have that package. can you send the .ipk to me 2011-02-24 13:56 kyak: I will update all feeds.conf after this release. 2011-02-24 13:57 xiangfu: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/wqy-microhei_0.2.0-beta-2_xburst.ipk and http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/kinyin_0.43-1_xburst.ipk 2011-02-24 13:57 you'll have to install updated wqy font (it installs the necessary symlink for qt) 2011-02-24 13:59 downloading... 2011-02-24 13:59 9.01K/s :( 2011-02-24 13:59 my downloads are momentary 2011-02-24 14:00 so guess it's your network -\ 2011-02-24 14:00 2011-02-24 16:58:01 (592 KB/s) - Â«wqy-microhei_0.2.0-beta-2_xburst.ipkÂ» saved [2099757/2099757] 2011-02-24 14:03 wpwrak: have you read about this? http://zedstar.org/blog/2010/08/18/slowfi-protocols-on-copyleft-hardware/ 2011-02-24 14:04 kyak: great. it's have two input methods of Simple Chinese. 2011-02-24 14:06 there are four input methods of traditional Chinese 2011-02-24 14:06 kyak: the 'save dialog' is too big. 2011-02-24 14:07 yeah, it's standard dialog. Should be adapted to Ben's size 2011-02-24 14:08 also 'open dialog' is big too.Â Â others are great. finally I can take note in Chinese. 2011-02-24 14:08 kyak: thanks again. ;-). 2011-02-24 14:08 ok, so it's a worthy application. I was afraid that it would type nonsense or be non-usable :) 2011-02-24 14:09 xiangfu: np! do i understand correctly that you type 2-4 times slower with these input methods? 2011-02-24 14:09 emacs also have chinese input method. but emacs is a little scare for End Users ;-) 2011-02-24 14:09 or you have more information in each symbol, so it's even faster? 2011-02-24 14:10 xiangfu: i will try to adapt save/open dialogs. They work pretty slow, too - maybe replace it with something faster 2011-02-24 14:11 xiangfu: you need a Russian to help you add Chinese text input to your NanoNote? 2011-02-24 14:11 hmm.. I only know the Simple Chineses. the WUBI works fine. some problem with PinYin. 2011-02-24 14:13 xiangfu: the mappings are configurable, so you might want to have a look in /usr/share/kinyin 2011-02-24 14:15 kyak: doesn't just "setfont" revert to the default font ? at lesat that's what the man page says ... 2011-02-24 14:15 kyak: wait. PinYin also works fine. it's need a little time understand the 'Kinyin' 2011-02-24 14:16 kyak: ah no .. reading on, i see that's this is not the same 2011-02-24 14:18 wpwrak: :) 2011-02-24 14:19 wolfspraul: kinyin found by kyak. I work on that a little. but kyak is always faster :-) 2011-02-24 14:20 xiangfu: now we need to find a vietnamese guy to check the tiÂ¿ng ViÃ‡t IM :) 2011-02-24 14:20 I haven't sold a single NanoNote to Vietnam, I think. 2011-02-24 14:21 even though I went there once and there is a scene down there - but small. 2011-02-24 14:21 me neither (yet) :) 2011-02-24 14:21 wolfspraul: it's because of the lack of tiÂ¿ng ViÃ‡t :) 2011-02-24 14:21 tuxbrain_away: nice ! a customer for bens and maybe also for atbens ;-) 2011-02-24 14:23 kyak: you mean tencent? QQ? 2011-02-24 14:24 xiangfu: i mean, the input method 2011-02-24 14:24 btw, it may be worth checking at the end of this week if there was any increase in sales in german-speaking countries. the ben has been mentioned quite favourably in a sub-thread in a heise article forum. the name is neither in the article nor the title of the thread, so many people may overlook it, but it may still help to establish a lower bound for the reach this has. http://www.heise.de/newsticker/foren/S-Re-China-und-MIPS-Eine-Lov 2011-02-24 14:24 estory/forum-194863/msg-19875474/read/ 2011-02-24 14:28 interesting ... the board that i claimed was destroyed by unknown forces of evil has a reset signal floating well below VDD. that would explain the symptoms. now to the cause ... 2011-02-24 14:30 (i had another one that had reset shorted to ground - not sure how i missed that during connectivity checking - that also didn't have a clock until i disentangled the reset line. that's how it found the issue.) 2011-02-24 14:31 kyak: seems that his boss installed new surveillance cameras :) 2011-02-24 14:35 kyak: I concluded that replacing just libtool in an automatic manner is nearly impossible, I recently repared the old libtool fixup (which never worked fully) and promptly broke packages with it, therfore I think the only way is a complete autoreconf with all associated issues 2011-02-24 14:35 kyak: do you have an overview how many qi packages use libtool fixups atm? 2011-02-24 14:35 kyak: once we merge the fixups to backfire I expect fallout here and there 2011-02-24 14:37 jow_laptop: there are 16 packages with PKG_FIXUP:=libtool 2011-02-24 14:38 i'm not sure if it was really needed in all of these. 2011-02-24 14:38 wolfspraul: MM > 1-rc3 should get an externally accessible 8:10 card slot, so that we can leverage all the cool toys people will hopefully build ;-) 2011-02-24 14:39 jow_laptop: if we have an understanding how to fix the fallout, it shouldn't be a problem (liek we had the nice explanation for iconv/gettext) 2011-02-24 14:39 that's a big change and first time I hear anybody suggesting it 2011-02-24 14:39 wolfspraul: +1 to wpwrak mm proposal (second time) 2011-02-24 14:40 roh: any news from the mail.openmoko.org front ? will there be at least a video of the hanging of the rooters ? :) 2011-02-24 14:40 not that I'm opposed to it, it just needs to be added to the discussion then we see where things are going 2011-02-24 14:40 MM having an RF link would provide real value add 2011-02-24 14:41 NN remote controling MM :) 2011-02-24 14:41 wpwrak: i had a nice bash alias to open a random file from /usr/include on a random line :) Mostly for fun, but also for simulation of active work :) 2011-02-24 14:41 wolfspraul: i'm about 50% serious :) if we want to establish the 8:10 card slot as a peripheral interface, then this would make sense. similar to how sony put their memorystick into everything, only that we're not evil ;-) 2011-02-24 14:41 I asked lekernal a few days ago his POV is that memory card that allows removal creates many tough s/w problems 2011-02-24 14:41 kyak: does your window manager have a "boss key" ? ;-) 2011-02-24 14:41 tuxbrain_away: next device should be named LL :) 2011-02-24 14:42 my first two ideas how Ben and Milkymist One work together is line-cable to get audio from Ben to m1, and USB keyboard 2011-02-24 14:42 Lazy Lizzard? 2011-02-24 14:42 tuxbrain_away or name could be OO or oh-oh 2011-02-24 14:43 rjeffries_: my mail is down at the moment. there are no news on the UBB quote yet, are there ? 2011-02-24 14:43 wpwrak we got quoute back last night similar to what was expected 2011-02-24 14:44 btw the remote controling can be achieved with atusb on MM I guess 2011-02-24 14:44 good point tuxbrain_away 2011-02-24 14:44 will atben/atusb have enough bandwith to transmit audio? 2011-02-24 14:46 rjeffries_: great ! what's the next step ? will you try to modify it for better pricing or such ? or just let it rest for now ? if you could forward the quote to werner@almesberger.net, that would be great. (that one gets lots of spam but it usually doens't fail at the same time openmoko.org does ;-) 2011-02-24 14:46 wolfspraul where on qi site do you tell new Ben owners to go for info on how to use Ben? 2011-02-24 14:46 wpwrak will send to that email no problemo 2011-02-24 14:46 tuxbrain_away: 8bit, mono, 8 muestras por segundos? :) 2011-02-24 14:47 rjeffries_: thanks ! 2011-02-24 14:47 I do not have a good sense of how this quote compares to what tuxbrain_away got 2011-02-24 14:47 rjeffries_: hard to say, there are good pages all over the wiki. 2011-02-24 14:47 tuxbrain_away: if it can send 1byte of audio, 8000 times per second you have something ;) 2011-02-24 14:47 zrafa: well is a little bit less than expected :P 2011-02-24 14:48 I spent quite some time to cleanup the homepage, which I think is in a somewhat presentable and stable form now. 2011-02-24 14:48 tuxbrain_away: if it can send 1byte of audio, 8000 times per second you have something ;), if you can send 2bytes, then stereo 2011-02-24 14:48 of course it needs more thought and intuitive links and arrangements too 2011-02-24 14:48 but at the second level, the product level, there is just darkness 2011-02-24 14:48 tuxbrain_away: just ask werner how many bytes per second of pure data (no frames) you can get 2011-02-24 14:49 so there is no great 'Ben NanoNote' product/user homepage 2011-02-24 14:49 wolfspraul I wait until the current testing image gets polished a bit more then I can give it a fair try 2011-02-24 14:49 the wiki will improve when there are more people that help improve it 2011-02-24 14:49 tuxbrain_away: and we can estimate 2011-02-24 14:49 rjeffries_: why you don't have good sense? 2011-02-24 14:49 tuxbrain_away: raw data rate is 250 kbps (without playing non-standard tricks) 2011-02-24 14:49 I am stuck so far down in the weeds now with the olkder image that it is best to let Ben sit there and get a really good charge. ;) 2011-02-24 14:50 tuxbrain_away I do not understand your question sir 2011-02-24 14:50 wpwrak: raw data = useful data for applications? or if we use some protocol or control that data would be part of those 250kbps? 2011-02-24 14:50 rjeffries_says "I do not have a good sense of how this quote compares to what tuxbrain_away got" 2011-02-24 14:51 tuxbarin_away I mean I cAN NOT TELL HOW THE STWO QUOTES COMAPRE e.g. at different volume levels 2011-02-24 14:51 zrafa: no, that's the raw bit rate inside a frame. you need to subtract framing overhead, pauses between frames, and any higher-level protocol overhead. 2011-02-24 14:52 this PCB house suggested ummersion gold treatment of entire surface at no extra cost vs gold on 2011-02-24 14:52 the UBB fingers only 2011-02-24 14:52 wpwrak you have mail 2011-02-24 14:53 how many do you inquiry rjeffries_? 2011-02-24 14:53 tuxbrain_away would you like to see the quoute? it is not secret. 2011-02-24 14:53 tuxbrain_away: then you will have, at least, 8bit stereo or 16bit mono 2011-02-24 14:53 Jay7: NN = Nano-Note, MM = Minor-Miracle, LL = Long-Leap ? ;-) 2011-02-24 14:54 jow_laptop: i will try to see how many packages _really_ need this fixup. I just checked, and not all of them who have it in Makefile really need it. 2011-02-24 14:54 wpwrak then we get to the long-awaited OMG model 2011-02-24 14:55 where wolfspraul has to add factories all working 7x365 no holidays 2011-02-24 14:55 I prefer the WTF version 2011-02-24 14:55 RTFM 2011-02-24 14:55 good name for book reader 2011-02-24 14:55 heh, ubuntu already switched from openoffice to libreoffice. that was quick :) 2011-02-24 14:56 rjeffries_: yes I would like to see that quoting :) 2011-02-24 14:56 Jay7: +1 to the RTFM epaper NN version :) 2011-02-24 14:57 rjeffries_: got the mail, thanks ! the per unit price is very high. almost ten times what tuxbrain got, at 500 units. setup cost is lower, though. 2011-02-24 14:57 btw, why not 2011-02-24 14:57 epaper + touchscreen :) 2011-02-24 14:57 of cours with 8:10 technology :) 2011-02-24 14:58 tuxbrain_away you have mail 2011-02-24 14:58 sure :) 2011-02-24 14:58 wpwrak I thought the setup charge was way way low 2011-02-24 14:59 book reading shouldn't eat much CPU, so we can use the same 2011-02-24 14:59 I want to know if they would llaser cut or mill (curioisty) 2011-02-24 14:59 just add RAM and usb-host 2011-02-24 15:00 tuxbrain_away: (wtf version) longing to a second serving of the openmoko experience ? ;-) 2011-02-24 15:00 wpwrak: haahahaahaahahaahah 2011-02-24 15:00 yeah! 2011-02-24 15:01 tuxbrain_away whenÂ Â you sell a Ben what instructions do you include with the product 2011-02-24 15:02 the already send by Wolfgang. Apart of the Nanowar edition I don't do any other modification on NN 2011-02-24 15:02 tuxbrain_away: btw, if you try to draw a straight line through the two price points you got (total prices, with setup cost), you get a rather interesting equation :-) 2011-02-24 15:02 wpwrak I have only seen the USA quute so please share your thoughts ;) 2011-02-24 15:03 it was pretty cheap at 10K qty. ;) 2011-02-24 15:04 wpwrak I wonder if there would be economies if one panelized more than one design on same panel] 2011-02-24 15:04 e.g. UBB atben atusb (what else is there, so far?) 2011-02-24 15:04 rjeffries_: one of the fundamental problems of a wiki like the qi-hw wiki is that there's no editorial oversight. so things tend to get chaotic. a typical condition is that there are a small number of pages regularly maintained by some individuals, many dead pages, only limited connectivity among all this, and no up to date index. 2011-02-24 15:05 I also want to knowm what size panel they used, if it only fits qty 100 UBB that is rather small 2011-02-24 15:05 rjeffries_: (10k) hmm ? i only see it go to 2k 2011-02-24 15:05 wpwrak agree n sterngths and weaknesses of wili format 2011-02-24 15:05 wpwrak I need another cup of coffee you are correct 2011-02-24 15:06 tuxbrain_away: maybe you want to send ron your quote ? i think he'll be on the next plane to spain ;-) 2011-02-24 15:06 wpwrak please NO I do not read Spanish;) 2011-02-24 15:07 and the wholemEuro currency is so scary and Un-American. //xsmile// 2011-02-24 15:07 rjeffries_: (straight line) the inclination is something like 16 euro-cents per unit ;-) not sure if this straight line is an appropriate approximation for the true unit cost, though, but it's interesting nevertheless 2011-02-24 15:08 rjeffries_: (spanish) i thought you lived in northern mexico ? (-:C 2011-02-24 15:08 rjeffries_: use the google Luck! 2011-02-24 15:08 rjeffries_: yo have mail 2011-02-24 15:08 wpwrak I will soon be a mexican subject. the drug loards will occupy California 2011-02-24 15:09 btw you mail doen't include attachment _P 2011-02-24 15:09 tuxbarin really? I thought when I forwraded the attachments went along 2011-02-24 15:10 rjeffries_: (unit cost) that's also why i find it rather amusing how people are trying to break down the packages tuxbrain sells. i don't think they realize that this is one of those cases where the slogan "the more you buy the more you save" is almost true also in total numbers :) 2011-02-24 15:12 tuxbrain_away I resent 2011-02-24 15:12 rjeffries_: (spain) let's just say that, for the 500 unit cost in your quote, you could afford a biz-class flight to barcelona, spend a week there (it's a nice city), get the boards made locally, and still have some change left ;-) 2011-02-24 15:13 wpwrak but will David's boards have immersion gold surface? ;) 2011-02-24 15:13 David I think your quoute says single sided am I wrong? 2011-02-24 15:14 I am llearning as I work through this process 2011-02-24 15:14 rjeffries_: no, they don't have ENIG. i don't know if that would have made them more expensive. 2011-02-24 15:14 David how will your pcb fab finish the board edges did they agree to laser cut? 2011-02-24 15:14 I think the gold layer is not expensive 2011-02-24 15:15 ciao 2011-02-24 15:16 double sided 2011-02-24 15:17 rjeffries_: (gold) when i get a rough estimate at the online quoting of 4pcb.com, tin and ENIG were the same price. your specification has a thick ENIG layer, which may drive up cost. 2011-02-24 15:18 rjeffries_: (that is, unless the fab just ignored it :) 2011-02-24 15:21 wpwrak: can you resend me the rjeffries_quotation? 2011-02-24 15:23 wpwrak:Â Â not needed it has arrived :) 2011-02-24 15:23 great :) 2011-02-24 15:23 wow 2011-02-24 15:24 rjeffries_: yes you can rebuild the fucking concorde and take an UBB bag with that prices... 2011-02-24 15:26 ;-)) 2011-02-24 15:27 tuxbrain_away: the 100 units price isn't too bad. so this may be a pcb house that specialized on low volumes. e.g., for prototype runs 2011-02-24 15:28 100 US units is still about <4 times spanish 100 units 2011-02-24 15:29 sorry 2011-02-24 15:29 tuxbrain_away: no ... 150%, i think 2011-02-24 15:29 tuxbrain_away: you have to include setup cost and all this 2011-02-24 15:29 yes I'm just counting the per unit costs 2011-02-24 15:29 I only have to pay the setup cost once, 2011-02-24 15:30 next bathc is setup cost free 2011-02-24 15:30 and shipping included in price 2011-02-24 15:31 tuxbrain_away: tax too, i guess ? 2011-02-24 15:31 tuxbrain_away: in ron's case, there would be CA sales tax. shipping should be negligible 2011-02-24 15:32 rjeffries_: so the next step would be to find out what makes it so expensive. one thing you could try is to get a proper quote from 4pcb.com. that would give you a price point for comparison. 2011-02-24 15:33 yep tax included, I must leave now, just not that is confirmed than will be ready on 3th March and I have asked to do a photo/video report to manufacturer :) will see what they answer :) 2011-02-24 15:33 rjeffries_: (find out) i.e., ask the fab if there's anything they could suggest to lower the price 2011-02-24 15:33 tuxbrain_away: kewl one more week then :) 2011-02-24 15:38 wpwrak: the world is small, you know 2011-02-24 15:38 wpwrak: guess who's the author of the heise forum comment you mentioned :) 2011-02-24 15:39 now does that qualify as astroturfing? 2011-02-24 15:51 dvdk: excellent undercover work ;-))) 2011-02-24 15:56 wpwrak: we are everywhere. we do not forgive. we do not forget. expect us. 2011-02-24 15:57 couldn't resist) 2011-02-24 15:58 ;-) 2011-02-24 15:59 btw i've noticed UBB isn't looking too profitable currently? 2011-02-24 16:00 dvdk: you mean in terms of volume, margin, or both ? 2011-02-24 16:00 in terms of no break-even 2011-02-24 16:01 dvdk: hmm, if tuxbrain_away can sell a few more, he should break even on expenses. so as long as his work is for free, that'll work :) 2011-02-24 16:02 wpwrak: "can sell a few more" might be the problem :)Â Â in the open-sourceÂ Â world everybody's work is for free, isn't it :) 2011-02-24 16:03 wpwrak: of the 50 UBBs I preordered it looks like i'll only be able to "resell" 10 pcs.Â Â So what do I do with 40 UBBs?Â Â Buy another 39 Nanonote's? :) 2011-02-24 16:03 s/'s/s/ 2011-02-24 16:08 dvdk: i think having around ten units per developer isn't excessive. if you think of them as something "cheap", like some 100 mil connector, then can see how you may use them up relatively quickly 2011-02-24 16:09 dvdk: with 40 units, you're a bit on the high side, but if you make lots of experiments, you'll use them up, too :) 2011-02-24 16:10 dvdk: i'll probably get 50, too. home-brewing them is getting boring :) 2011-02-24 16:11 wpwrak :) 2011-02-24 16:12 wpwrak: any tips about which microcontrollers could be programmed directly from the UBB's pins?Â Â asynchronous serial programming won't be possible, ruling out most Atmega chips, won't it? 2011-02-24 16:12 wpwrak: have been thinking about hooking up a parallax propeller to the ubb 2011-02-24 16:13 dvdk: i've programmed silabs (C2 protocol) and AVR (serial memory programming) over UBB or equivalent 2011-02-24 16:13 wpwrak: so AVR can be programmed using SPI? 2011-02-24 16:14 dvdk: AVR is very synchronous :) yes, they use SPI 2011-02-24 16:15 dvdk: silabs have a protocol with reset acting as clock plus a bi-directional data line. reset/clock timing has some restrictions (maximum low time is limited to a few us). also this works fine. 2011-02-24 16:15 wpwrak: maximum low time can be easily guaranteed using some R/C network :) 2011-02-24 16:15 dvdk: eek ! 2011-02-24 16:16 wpwrak: propeller has similar restrictions: pulse-width programming protocol:long low=0, short low=1 or something 2011-02-24 16:16 http://hackaday.com/2011/02/24/reverse-engineering-a-mobile-phone-e-paper-display/ 2011-02-24 16:16 heh! 2011-02-24 16:17 wpwrak: so here i also thougt about some R/Cs (using one pin vs. two pins=double current=half pulse width) 2011-02-24 16:18 steve|m: :-) 2011-02-24 16:18 dvdk: i think anything that doesn't need timing with better than 1-2 us accuracy will be a problem 2011-02-24 16:18 does not understand 2011-02-24 16:18 curios about the heise forum comment 2011-02-24 16:18 dvdk: what are the prop's pulse widths ? 2011-02-24 16:19 wpwrak: negotiated (detected) initially.Â Â 1/19000 us should be fine 2011-02-24 16:19 oops 2011-02-24 16:19 1/19000 s 2011-02-24 16:19 50us? 2011-02-24 16:19 wpwrak: note that i don't want to go into kernel space.Â Â use gforth if possible. 2011-02-24 16:20 dvdk: 50 us is slooooow ;-) 2011-02-24 16:20 kristianpaul (heise): note link is broken, need to be spliced from 2 comments 2011-02-24 16:20 dvdk: i don't know about forth, but with C you'll be fine 2011-02-24 16:20 wpwrak: you mean probability of IRQ hitting is low enough? 2011-02-24 16:20 wpwrak: dosen't that depend on amount of data to transmit? 2011-02-24 16:21 wpwrak: last time i bit-banged the internal buzzer i could well "hear" the interrupts. 2011-02-24 16:21 dvdk: yeah. and if you really have to, you could just disable interrupts in the critical partt 2011-02-24 16:22 wpwrak: huh? disable irqs from user-space?Â Â not possible!? 2011-02-24 16:22 dvdk: with 50 us, the interrupt may actually have enough time to just run to completion ;-) 2011-02-24 16:22 wpwrak: optimist! 2011-02-24 16:22 wpwrak: i mean if i can disable irqs, i could also bit-bang a uart 2011-02-24 16:23 dvdk: (not possible) it's all a question of access permissions ;-) not that i've tried it on the ben. i've bit-banged a lot of stuff into the silabs chips with a 5 us deadline with very few problems 2011-02-24 16:24 (uart) this is a bit trickier, because you need to know when the frame starts 2011-02-24 16:25 of course, if you just let the uart driver take over the system completely, then you can be as precise as you want :) 2011-02-24 16:25 steve|m: another hackaday article :-) 2011-02-24 16:26 wpwrak: ok, thanks for the info.Â Â if bit-banging works that well, i'll safe some time designing RC networks :) 2011-02-24 16:26 glad to see they took yours 2011-02-24 16:45 wpwrak: you use sendmail as MTA? 2011-02-24 16:45 usex exim and try hard to keep it update after recently sec bug 2011-02-24 16:45 uses* 2011-02-24 16:51 btw nanomap developer around? 2011-02-24 16:52 I think his nick is nielsle, but he's here rarely (if that's even the right nick) 2011-02-24 16:52 how does this bot work again? 2011-02-24 16:53 oh, was here just 3 hours ago - but only for 9 minutes. well, now we know :-) 2011-02-24 16:54 great :-) 2011-02-24 17:09 kristianpaul: (sendmail) yup. it has served me well for the last ~20 years :) 2011-02-24 17:12 (circuit destroyed by evil forces) found it. it was parasitic resistance of flux, causing the reset line driven by a weak pull-up to raise very slowly and/or to an insufficient level. 2011-02-24 17:14 everything would be so much easier if real world circuits were ideal as well... 2011-02-24 17:16 larsc: hmm, sometimes things like parasitic capacitances and switches with non-zero Ron help to avoid inconvenient infinite derivatives of steps in functions :) 2011-02-24 17:21 still, it would make things easier 2011-02-24 17:24 (if real world circuits were ideal as well...) What is the sense of life after that then? :-) 2011-02-24 17:24 what fun would it be if things Just Worked?? 2011-02-24 17:24 i only had two two EE courses, once about d.c. circuits and maxwell equations and the other about a.c. circuits, so basically know nothing beyond ideal circuits 2011-02-24 17:27 wpwrak: is glib so helish as some people (as always) comment? 2011-02-24 17:27 (and now i'm done with university) 2011-02-24 17:30 kristianpaul: glib2 or glibc? 2011-02-24 17:30 ah well, i dint knew that.. 2011-02-24 17:31 larsc: http://ur1.ca/3buba ? (done) ;-) 2011-02-24 17:32 actually now it's time for a break 2011-02-24 17:32 :-) 2011-02-24 17:37 hmm, trace-to-trace resistance through flux: ~20-30 kOhm. GRRR. 2011-02-24 17:38 larsc: (done with university) oh, when did you finish ? 2011-02-24 17:39 wpwrak: soon ;) 2011-02-24 17:39 one more exam and a thesis to write 2011-02-24 17:40 larsc: (soon) ah, good. so you can delay "real life" and "real work" for a bit longer, and be productive here instead ;-) 2011-02-24 17:40 larsc what is your academic specialty 2011-02-24 17:40 need to finish-resume university 2011-02-24 17:40 rjeffries: computer science 2011-02-24 17:41 nods 2011-02-24 17:41 kristianpaul: glib is evil. glibc is fine as long as it's eglibc. 2011-02-24 17:41 wpwrak: yeah ;) 2011-02-24 17:41 wpwrak: I like eglibc :-) 2011-02-24 17:42 wpwrak: but only 3 more months or so and i guess it's time to start looking for the "real" work 2011-02-24 17:43 larsc: what is your thesis about ? 2011-02-24 17:44 i haven't started yet, but wanted to write about sw/hw codesign for linux 2011-02-24 17:44 larsc: (real work) a PhD may be a convenient solution for further deferring "real life" :) 2011-02-24 17:45 hmm, interesting 2011-02-24 17:45 "Dr. Lars" ;) 2011-02-24 17:45 larsc: ah, gcc output in ELF and verilog ? :) 2011-02-24 17:45 wpwrak: ;) 2011-02-24 17:46