2011-02-17 01:22 tuxbrain_away: nice 1! 2011-02-17 01:26 yay ! next week i'll got my local made mm1 sheets case 2011-02-17 01:27 blue or smoke or red or orange ... 2011-02-17 01:27 ah green too 2011-02-17 01:29 hmm 2011-02-17 01:31 surprise :D 2011-02-17 02:09 kristianpaul: will they surprise you with the color or do you get to choose ? 2011-02-17 02:10 i choos 2011-02-17 02:10 e 2011-02-17 02:10 which will you pick ? 2011-02-17 02:11 i'll dont tell until arrives, so more that one could get surpriced ;-) 2011-02-17 02:11 :D 2011-02-17 02:12 ah, they do it just in time. nice :) 2011-02-17 02:12 maybe wolfgang can then outsource case work from expensive berlin to columbia ;-) 2011-02-17 02:13 i fail to reply today, or they will ship it already.. 2011-02-17 02:13 hehe 2011-02-17 02:13 lets see what i get first 2011-02-17 02:13 for me those 15usd are just lost.. until i get the package 2011-02-17 02:13 i could order other color and work but too late 2011-02-17 02:14 shipping is 5usd.. 2011-02-17 02:14 but anyway.. 2011-02-17 02:14 wpwrak: columbia???? Where is that? 2011-02-17 02:15 kristianpaul: i think i should use a coin to decide on whether to put o or u. i'd get it right more often :) 2011-02-17 02:15 haha 2011-02-17 02:16 now i'm really worried if you can speak spanish... ;-) 2011-02-17 02:16 or use the german adaptation "Kolumbien" ;-) 2011-02-17 02:16 well at least you do, wolfgang never tried.. :( 2011-02-17 02:17 lol 2011-02-17 02:21 or be inventive and choose a name loosely related to the overall theme in here coulombia ;) 2011-02-17 02:24 larsc: that one's even more difficult :-) perhaps we could just unify all vowels and simply use "a" (remove multiple vowels). calamba. that sounds friendly ;) 2011-02-17 02:25 http://xkcd.com/853/ :P 2011-02-17 02:26 alright, it'l be a friendly language, without intense emotions :) 2011-02-17 02:27 hahahah 2011-02-17 02:29 wpwrak: hey !!! 2011-02-17 02:32 calamba actually exists, a city in the philipines. when you google for it, they show a little map snippet. i find the area above "calamba" interesting. "Mabuhay City Phase II". i thought cities had such names only in movies ;-) 2011-02-17 03:26 Guest59538: Hi. 2011-02-17 03:27 Guest59538: just found your IP show you are in Beijing :) 2011-02-17 04:00 xiangfu, hi :-) 2011-02-17 04:17 Guest59538: do you have ben nanonote? 2011-02-17 04:18 xiangfu, yeah, I have one nanonote 2011-02-17 04:18 xiangfu, it's awesome :-) 2011-02-17 04:22 xiangfu, so how is life in ingenic? 2011-02-17 04:23 panda|x201: sorry what you mean? 2011-02-17 04:23 xiangfu, oops, you are not working for c 2011-02-17 04:23 panda|x201: I am work for sharism.cc not Ingenic. :) 2011-02-17 04:24 cool, seems Wolfgang hired you directly 2011-02-17 04:24 yes. 2011-02-17 04:26 morning 2011-02-17 04:27 xiangfu, so any fancy update? 2011-02-17 04:27 wishes flash would be more like harddisks sometimes.. waiting for slow nand 2011-02-17 04:27 panda|x201: http://en.qi-hardware.com/feed/rss20.xmlÂ Â ;-) 2011-02-17 04:28 xiangfu, ah, can't read those feeds, not Chinese 2011-02-17 04:29 panda|x201: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2011-02-14 2011-02-17 04:29 oh 2011-02-17 04:29 xiangfu, wow, Valentine's Day release, so sweet :-) 2011-02-17 04:31 panda|x201: not release yet. I delay again. :( 2011-02-17 04:31 panda|x201: the next release will have those features 2011-02-17 04:32 xiangfu, ah, you mean 0214 release is not integrated with new wallpapers? 2011-02-17 04:32 xiangfu, anyway, it's good to see if maps can work 2011-02-17 04:33 it's broken in my last update 2011-02-17 04:34 xiangfu, BTW: your job is really cool ;-) 2011-02-17 04:34 panda|x201: NanoMaps?Â Â works fine in 2010-12-14, 2011-02-17 04:35 panda|x201: which version do you using?? check by 'more /etc/VERSION' 2011-02-17 04:35 2010-11-07 2011-02-17 04:36 em, a quite buggy release, even /dev node for RTC is broken 2011-02-17 04:37 anyway, if stardict or other dictionary apps working fine, then I will considering about an update 2011-02-17 04:48 panda|x201: stardict. qstardict. sdcv works fine in 2010-12-14. 2011-02-17 05:27 xiangfu, 2011-02-14 image was still not released yet? 2011-02-17 05:31 panda|x201: not yet. still compiling... 2011-02-17 05:31 when the BUILD_LOG goto 200M the build will finish: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02162011-0724/ 2011-02-17 05:31 panda|x201: you can wait for 2011-02-14. or reflash your nanonote use the 2010-12-14 version:http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/OpenWrt_Software_Image#Image_2010-12-14 2011-02-17 05:32 xiangfu, ok, I can wait, if it's comes with more apps 2011-02-17 05:32 xiangfu, so you will release it soon in this week? 2011-02-17 05:33 panda|x201: first release test version. then normal release. 2011-02-17 05:33 if everything goes fine. today I will release the test version. 2011-02-17 05:34 xiangfu, ok 2011-02-17 05:50 xiangfu: what do you think about kicking out fbgs and ghostscript from rootfs and build them as packages? nupdf is much better than "poor man's" fbgs and ghostscript was only ported, to tell the truth, as a dependency of fbgs. 2011-02-17 05:50 i'm not talking about the current release, just for the future 2011-02-17 05:59 xiangfu is a crawling tiger :) 2011-02-17 05:59 no chance of getting him 2011-02-17 06:00 a ninja 2011-02-17 07:57 wolfspraul: I know you review the logs but just in case you did'n notice UBBs are on the go :) 2011-02-17 08:01 I don't always re-read 2011-02-17 08:01 haven't seen this one 2011-02-17 08:01 you mean you made the order? 2011-02-17 08:07 yep 2011-02-17 08:10 great, congratulations! 2011-02-17 08:25 tuxbrain_away: nice 2011-02-17 08:25 any note how long it will take? 2011-02-17 08:29 two weeks, but we announce and take preordersÂ Â later on today 2011-02-17 08:33 finally I decided to simplfy, so no cable, no cheap (and risky) shippment I hope you understand 2011-02-17 08:35 nice. 2011-02-17 09:14 xiangfu: btw looking at the 2-14 firmware changelog, zgv is missing? 2011-02-17 09:15 so what's the correct way of getting things into config.full_system?Â Â just commit myself? 2011-02-17 09:16 hi kyak.Â Â so already end of workday in china? 2011-02-17 09:16 :) 2011-02-17 09:16 dvdk: i remember wolfspraul once gave a green light to add things in config.full_system 2011-02-17 09:17 well, since i haven't been able to compile config.full_system in months, I was somehow reluctant to add untested stuff. 2011-02-17 09:17 autoconf is really terrible. 2011-02-17 09:17 leads to different compilation action in config.full_system vs. my minimal one 2011-02-17 09:18 i also have a kind of minimal set 2011-02-17 09:18 so going to commit and bloat the size of the next image a bit :) 2011-02-17 09:19 i thought about removing fbgs and ghostscript, which is huge 2011-02-17 09:19 well, ghostscript could be a nice feature.Â Â there is no proper replacement. 2011-02-17 09:19 case anyone needs it, he can install it as a pacakge 2011-02-17 09:19 i don't see it like a commonly used pacakge 2011-02-17 09:20 but were to get packages from?Â Â do we have a repo nowadays?Â Â compile oneself? 2011-02-17 09:20 yeah, current gs package is broken, btw :/ 2011-02-17 09:20 opkg install ghostscript 2011-02-17 09:20 should be fixed 2011-02-17 09:20 kyak: you mean we finally got an up-to-date repo? 2011-02-17 09:20 dvdk: xiangfu is working on release image now, with all the pacakges 2011-02-17 09:20 well, might take me some days until i manage to upgrade 2011-02-17 09:21 i mean, all the pacakges are also avaialble separately 2011-02-17 09:21 they weren't until now, afaik, the repository listed in opkg.conf was completely out of date 2011-02-17 09:22 it probably still is. work in progress :-) 2011-02-17 09:22 damn. i just CAN'T write "package".. it is always "pacakge" ): 2011-02-17 09:22 sorry for being slow 2011-02-17 09:22 binary compatability is a bitch.Â Â i guess many out-of-date packages will crash when installed into 02-20 2011-02-17 09:22 yes, feel free to add something to config.full_system, I see this like a flag 'others please test it' 2011-02-17 09:22 02-14 2011-02-17 09:22 dvdk: having a look at changes in wiki, opkg.conf should now point to correct repo 2011-02-17 09:22 wolfspraul: ok 2011-02-17 09:23 wolfspraul: btw what's the current release cycle?Â Â one image per months?Â Â or just release once everything is in a compilable state? 2011-02-17 09:24 he. good question. 2011-02-17 09:24 we have no 'official app list', or 'official supported programming languages' 2011-02-17 09:24 not even 'official gui toolkits' 2011-02-17 09:24 that means no test plan 2011-02-17 09:24 because no test plan - we cannot even produce 1 really verified image 2011-02-17 09:25 and because not 1, also no series of them 2011-02-17 09:25 in the meantime we essentially try to always just stabilize things 2011-02-17 09:25 I think the overwhelming value comes from stability. 2011-02-17 09:25 bottom line - if we can have a new image every 2 months, I think that would be great 2011-02-17 09:25 then I want to work a bit on smoother upgrades, via opkg 2011-02-17 09:26 well, last year it was one image per moths already. 2011-02-17 09:26 so maybe one day we move away from the images entirely, and there is just a stream of opkg updates? don't know... 2011-02-17 09:26 ubuntu is planning to use a "rolling release" model sometime in the future. 2011-02-17 09:26 yeah, I can imagine 2011-02-17 09:26 i like the snapshot images, this way everybody is seeing the same state 2011-02-17 09:26 however, I'm pragmatic above everything else. so it depends on the state of tools, openwrt, what works out of the box (in the tools), etc. 2011-02-17 09:27 sure but it could be possible to build an image out of packages 2011-02-17 09:27 for example we could build packages only, and the imagebuilder could still produced a full_system type imag 2011-02-17 09:27 image 2011-02-17 09:27 this image is going to be pretty awesome. I don't remember if anything particular is broken 2011-02-17 09:28 like I said it depends on the tools, I am very careful to introduce anything that will become a maintenance headache - read: that will become obsolete later 2011-02-17 09:28 openwrt is working on some opkg upgrade improvements, I heard 2011-02-17 09:28 we are trying to cleanup the files, reduce the diff to upstream 2011-02-17 09:28 it's a flow type of thing. go with the flow... 2011-02-17 09:35 [commit] kyak: don't include ghostscript and fbgs into rootfs, build as modules http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/8200c93 2011-02-17 09:37 xiangfu: also a regression in config.full_system: it lists gnuplot-ggi which doesn't exist any more.Â Â the package is nowadays named gnuplot-gfx 2011-02-17 09:37 kyak: we had this one pretty awesome postscript blog post 2011-02-17 09:37 about postscript as a programming language. I liked it. 2011-02-17 10:16 wolfspraul: yeah, it's good. But it's size is 25 Mb after installation. Having it by default in rootfs is overwhelming. We still provide it as a individual package, so won't be a problem for someone who's interested to install it. 2011-02-17 10:24 if it's broken, that's a good argument. otherwise it feels painful to remove it with that nice blog post. 2011-02-17 10:24 but the rootfs is full, we need to compromise a little until we find a way to increase it and keep bootup time low still 2011-02-17 10:24 so many conflicting priorities :-) 2011-02-17 10:25 I trust your judgment, if you remove it let's move like that. 2011-02-17 10:25 you can also look over the packages, maybe there are still others that provide little value. 2011-02-17 10:29 no, it should be fixed 2011-02-17 10:32 (little value) openvpn :) 2011-02-17 10:32 have no idea why it is there 2011-02-17 10:33 and so php 2011-02-17 10:44 my vote for a package-centric approach. you can always introduce "known points of stability" by selecting a snapshot (and, when that snapshot has problems, arrange your work such that they get fixed before more items in the snapshot get broken - not too different from how you work on a "one big piece of everything" system) 2011-02-17 10:53 Jay7: So kexeboot is ready for the nanonote? i saw your mail on the list :-) 2011-02-17 11:06 kyak: php is a scripting language, like perl/python/lua/erlang 2011-02-17 11:06 very important imo 2011-02-17 11:06 openvpn is about networking, and that's by definition good :-) 2011-02-17 11:06 I am on a 24/7 openvpn connection 2011-02-17 11:11 (php) hmm, a language almost exclusively used for web servers (at least i've never heard it mentioned in any other context) ... "important' on the ben ? not that it wouldn't be nice to have, just in case, but it seems like quite the niche. okay, like forth ;-) 2011-02-17 11:13 I was shoked to see that the debian sheevaplug installer was written in php 2011-02-17 11:13 *shocked 2011-02-17 11:13 yeah, php in default image is more than questionable 2011-02-17 11:14 openvpn by default in network-less device?... 2011-02-17 11:18 sure of course, I want to add voip too 2011-02-17 11:18 offline rss, offline imap, etc. 2011-02-17 11:18 'network-less' is relative 2011-02-17 11:18 when I download music, it comes via USB as well, much easier than over the memory card 2011-02-17 11:18 kyak: wolfgang won't rest until he has firefox and java, so he can run office applications from the cloud ;-) 2011-02-17 11:20 (network-less) i think this will change a bit with wpan. right now, there's little reason to interact with the network from the ben. but if it can be a bit away from other things, this changes 2011-02-17 11:21 i wait for wpan so badly :) 2011-02-17 11:24 it won't be too long. the last days i've been cutting and etching boards. realized that the latest atben layout change squeezed things a bit too tightly, so i'm making it 0.1mm larger in each direction now. and switching to a metric grid. down with the imperial madness ! 2011-02-17 11:25 (metric) two key elements, the 8:10 card and the antenna have metric dimensions, so fitting them was always a fight. i'm still too much of a coward to also go to metric traces, clearance, and holes, though 2011-02-17 11:27 hm, i didn't know Argentina wasn't metric.. Or is it just you? 2011-02-17 11:27 kyak: don't judge so easily about what's required and what not.Â Â Currently most use cases of nanonote are curious things anyway. 2011-02-17 11:28 (about removing packages) 2011-02-17 11:28 php could be valuable for having host-accesssible web-apps on the nanonote 2011-02-17 11:28 dvdk: i wouldn't remove it if we weren't so tight on those 512 Mb already 2011-02-17 11:28 image how many packages could be fitted on 25 Mb 2011-02-17 11:29 kyak: well than i shouldn't port more packages, most stuff won't fit into the 512 MB anyway :) 2011-02-17 11:29 btw, is the ubifs compressed? 2011-02-17 11:30 as an alternative, we could do what many openwrt distribs do: use a compressed rom filesystem, and layer an ubifs above it. 2011-02-17 11:30 first of all, there are no such thing as host-accesssible web-apps at the momnet on Ben. Secondly, i would argue against writing it in php. Overall, i doubt there is a single person who ever typed "php" at ben 2011-02-17 11:31 dvdk: we will increase the rootfs for sure 2011-02-17 11:31 why do we have a 2gb nand 2011-02-17 11:31 that's the reason why we should keep the rootfs smaller.. realyl generic and commonly used appsÂ Â only 2011-02-17 11:31 kyak: i just wanted us to stay cautious.Â Â maybe people have been using ben this way already? 2011-02-17 11:31 i already thoughut about using ben as a portable svn server 2011-02-17 11:31 so that anyone could just grab and install an app you ported, and he would have enough space for that 2011-02-17 11:31 it's just about growing in the right way so that bootup time doesn't go through the roof. in my experience it's near impossible to bring it back down once it's over 30 seconds. 2011-02-17 11:31 we are at 21, that's already a few worse than I thought (I only did rough counting on my Ben, felt more like 17/18) 2011-02-17 11:32 also i think that having apps available from opkg is nothing to having them pre-installed.Â Â people are going to judge us by what is pre-installed. 2011-02-17 11:32 (boot time) or just suspend :) 2011-02-17 11:32 we don't even have a proper package-manager to search packages in 2011-02-17 11:33 dvdk: totally. 90% or more of what matters is out-of-box experience 2011-02-17 11:33 at the moment, we can easily occupy 2 Gb with packages 2011-02-17 11:33 who needs it? 2011-02-17 11:33 so moving sthings into packages means (mostly) to remove them from people's eyes 2011-02-17 11:33 dvdk: (packages) do people judge debian by what is pre-installed ? 2011-02-17 11:33 dvdk: opks search ? 2011-02-17 11:33 *opkg 2011-02-17 11:33 not 'occupy', it's about filling something valuable in there. and also not the full 2gb as there needs to be space for data, like maps, music, dictionaries, pictures, etc. 2011-02-17 11:33 mpwrak: debian has a nice package manager that i s easily a4ccessible from the desktop 2011-02-17 11:34 kyak: opkg search?Â Â won't call that a readily acessible package manager 2011-02-17 11:34 afaik the opkg maintainer did a gtk frontend recently 2011-02-17 11:34 dvdk: naw, fix the real problem. packages are unavoidable. it only seems that you can avoid them because there's still very little stuff for openwrt. look at jlime. without packages, you're dead instantly. 2011-02-17 11:34 wpwrak: then the logical consquence looks like we need a graphical/gui package manager accessible from gmenu2x? 2011-02-17 11:35 maybe aptitude can be hacked to work on NN? 2011-02-17 11:35 wolfspraul: i don't like the idea of pre-filling the device. for the user, this then creates the problem that they don't have room for their own stuff and need to decide what of the pre-installed things they can safely get rid of. this is hard. 2011-02-17 11:35 jow_laptop: realy? need to check that out 2011-02-17 11:36 wolfspraul: if you really want to pre-fill the device, that should probably be in the form of a single package that can be removed with one sweep 2011-02-17 11:36 wpwrak: i thought that flash is relatively infinitely sized compared to the available software that can run on the ben 2011-02-17 11:36 dvdk: i think a user-friendly package manager is important, yes 2011-02-17 11:36 :) 2011-02-17 11:36 dvdk: (infinitely) only if you're slacking ;-)) 2011-02-17 11:36 ah no, it was integration with packagekit 2011-02-17 11:36 those are all just theoretical questions. 2011-02-17 11:37 practically it's also about what actually works, and works well 2011-02-17 11:37 http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2008/03/05/opkg-and-packagekit/ 2011-02-17 11:37 doesn't want to go hunting for opkgs, whenever he upgraded the firmware. 2011-02-17 11:38 I have no doubt we can find a really nice set of 'default' apps that fit in 512 mb. and then there is still another 1.5gb that is mostly only out of sight because we are trying to avoid the long ubifs attach, otherwise we wouldn't even talk about this now and happily keep adding stuff. 2011-02-17 11:38 doesn't even like using the package manager ubuntu after doing a fresh installation 2011-02-17 11:38 package manager is important for a smoother upgrade procedure 2011-02-17 11:38 and xiangfu has been working on packetizing more files 2011-02-17 11:38 wolfspraul: going to call you on that :) (512 mb) 2011-02-17 11:38 that's also good for others who want to build different rootfses 2011-02-17 11:39 if php and openvpn are indeed the packages with the least value on ben, and other than that 512 is full, then we have to look at a larger rootfs soon 2011-02-17 11:39 although I think there are lower hanging fruits (to be removed without loosing functionality), it's just that openvpn and php pop into kyak's eyes and he thinks they are not needed on Ben. 2011-02-17 11:40 if the whole rest of the 512 mb is already that good (like php and openvpn), then we must be much further than I realize :-) 2011-02-17 11:41 dvdk: (upgrade model) i think this should work like on a pc. also there, you normally just upgrade your distribution without wiping out everything. the idea of a "firmware image" with a fully featured rootfs is fundamentally flawed 2011-02-17 11:42 wpwrak: i think a pc-like upgrade model will not be feasible for ben. 2011-02-17 11:42 dvdk: (upgrade model) perhaps it would make sense to be able to "slave" the ben to some other device, though, to keep track of install actions. so if the ben is lost/destroyed/erased, you have a backup. 2011-02-17 11:42 dvdk: why not ? 2011-02-17 11:42 wpwrak: we don't have the manpower to make upgrading work that flawlessly 2011-02-17 11:43 wpwrak: we don't even have a way to track binary compatability breakage with uclibc upgrades 2011-02-17 11:44 wpwrak: getting an debianesce upzgrade experience might involve debianesce overhead :) 2011-02-17 11:44 dvdk: so you're saying the dependencies in openwrt are incomplete/broken ? 2011-02-17 11:45 wpwrak: openwrt is not debian.Â Â it does not track package versions in dependencies.Â Â also getting these dependencies right takes _a_lot_ of time, i guess. 2011-02-17 11:45 have you seen dependencies in debian like ( 2011-02-17 11:46 checks his local install 2011-02-17 11:46 because that's what it boils down to. also, i think one reason for picking openwrt was to avoid having to spend the full distribution maintenance effort in this little project. if this doesn't work, then the problem may be even higher up ... 2011-02-17 11:47 yes yes, i've seen them. i even parsed them ;-) 2011-02-17 11:47 look at this dependencies (example):Â Â Needs libxcursor > 1.1.2, conflict with liballegro4a <2:4.0.3-5 2011-02-17 11:47 dvdk: how can you think that 2 Gb Flash is infinitely large for 2800+ packages?... 2011-02-17 11:47 it must take enormous efforts to find bugs in these dependencies 2011-02-17 11:48 kyak: just assumed porting speed << available_space 2011-02-17 11:49 assumes that 1.5GB flash will be enough for everyone :) 2011-02-17 11:49 what do you mean "porting speed" these are ported already 2011-02-17 11:50 yeah, but will they fit in 1.5GB space?Â Â how much remains free?Â Â how long does it take until porters can fill out the remaining space? 2011-02-17 11:50 there is no point in filling 2gb garbage to the device 2011-02-17 11:50 it WON'T fit 2011-02-17 11:50 that's th epoint 2011-02-17 11:50 then i underestimated openwrt's productivity 2011-02-17 11:50 dvdk: (large effort) yes, i agree. that's why we shouldn't do these things within qi-hw. if upstream doesn't deliver this, then our choice of upstream may be the limiting factor 2011-02-17 11:52 dvdk: e.g., we already have jlime with mighty OE (and complex dependencies) as upstream. there's also the idea of trimming a real debian down to an acceptable size. 2011-02-17 11:53 ok, i think the only thought remotely ressembling some kind of solution would be to get a proper (gui) package manager on to the ben? 2011-02-17 11:53 ... or replace openwrt with jlime or debian :) 2011-02-17 11:53 dvdk: (package manager) i think that would be a good start 2011-02-17 11:53 moved package manager a few steps upwards on his todo list 2011-02-17 11:53 dvdk: then we can see how bad it really is 2011-02-17 11:54 replace it, like there is gui package manager in jlime? :) or apt is even remotely working in debian? 2011-02-17 11:54 dvdk: maybe it works great and the occasional weird conflict can be easily fixed. maybe not. 2011-02-17 11:54 kyak: kidding?Â Â synaptics, aptitude, work pretty well for me.Â Â don't know much about jlime 2011-02-17 11:55 kyak: jlime still has a performance problem with opkg. but there's help on the horizon ... 2011-02-17 11:55 dvdk: so you did try apt in debian in Ben, right? 2011-02-17 11:55 wpwrak: i think we'd need regular firmware updates plus per-firmware pakckage repositories 2011-02-17 11:55 kyak: i installed debian using the debian installer on ben, dude. 2011-02-17 11:55 took me a full day. 2011-02-17 11:55 dvdk: that would be a start 2011-02-17 11:56 very nice watching aptitude grab more than twice the amountÂ Â of available ram 2011-02-17 11:56 dvdk: either you have a lot of patience, or a lot of free time. How long does it take apt to install someting? 2011-02-17 11:56 dvdk: then people could also try cross-release upgrades 2011-02-17 11:56 kyak: apt is fine, does use < 32 MB.Â Â aptitude is terrible, though (does it invoke some perl code?) 2011-02-17 11:57 i think debian package database management is not properly designed, needs to pull the full database into memory for installation. 2011-02-17 11:57 kyak: (help on the horizon) http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/qpkg 2011-02-17 11:57 wpwrak: opkg works pretty fast for me 2011-02-17 11:58 kyak: btw using debian-installer implies that it pulled the full base installation via apt. 2011-02-17 11:58 kyak: because there are only a few packages in openwrt. you should see it crawl on jlime :) 2011-02-17 11:58 not surprisingly, i then ditched debian for openwrt 2011-02-17 11:59 well, in all fairness, also jlime has packages that we could probably drop 2011-02-17 11:59 wpwrak (cross release upgrades): how would that work? 2011-02-17 12:00 dvdk: you install you base system, say, in december. then, when the february edition comes out, you upgrade with packages from there 2011-02-17 12:01 wpwrak: that would mean that you backport all new packages into the earlier firmware branches.Â Â doable, but even more complex 2011-02-17 12:01 dvdk: depending on how good the dependencies and how bad the incompatibilities are, you may just cherry-pick the few things you really care about 2011-02-17 12:01 e.g., if you just want the latest forth, there's no point in updating openvpn ;-) 2011-02-17 12:01 wpwrak: what i was suggesting is that you have packages newyl build for every firmware version released, so you libariry version dependencies are fulfilled for sure. 2011-02-17 12:02 dvdk: yes, i understand that. but that's also very limiting, because you need to replace lots of things that shouldn't need replacing. 2011-02-17 12:03 yes, alternative would be backporting, which is limiting in its way, too 2011-02-17 12:03 compromise would be to release firmware images seldomly and update the packages multiple times per released firmware 2011-02-17 12:03 dvdk: also, do "core" libraries break binary compatibility *that* often ? 2011-02-17 12:03 backporting is evil :) 2011-02-17 12:03 saw uclibc compatability break two times in half a year 2011-02-17 12:04 that doesn't speak well for uclibc :-( 2011-02-17 12:04 uclibc compat can also break if its feature config changed 2011-02-17 12:04 this is going to be a library version hell with many interesting untracable bugs reported 2011-02-17 12:04 within the same version 2011-02-17 12:04 dvdk: but to be fair, it went back to the old version 2011-02-17 12:05 wolfspraul: this wasÂ Â the second time it broke for me :)Â Â see, i already had migrated to a hand-build firmware image featuring the newer version. 2011-02-17 12:05 jow_laptop: true. how bad is this with feature additions ? i.e., if you enable new features, how likely are they to break other ABIs ? 2011-02-17 12:05 dvdk: you were the one who even brought up the issue (binary compatibility). 2011-02-17 12:06 so it broken, then we went back (fixed it). 2011-02-17 12:06 you were too fast, so you had to change twice... 2011-02-17 12:06 but we also concluded that binary compatibility is not very high on our priority list 2011-02-17 12:06 wolfspraul: hit me twice by surprise.Â Â nobody seemed to send a notice to the list. 2011-02-17 12:06 only that next time we will manage/communicate it better, hopefully 2011-02-17 12:06 yes, agreed [notice] 2011-02-17 12:06 okay, so uclibc is exonerated. good :) 2011-02-17 12:07 is looking up exonerated in the dictionary 2011-02-17 12:07 wpwrak: openwrt is flexible, those different uclibc versions are just a checkbox away. 2011-02-17 12:07 binary compatibility just totally wasn't on anybodys radar before dvdk brought it up. 2011-02-17 12:07 that's a true oversight. 2011-02-17 12:08 but now it is on the radar, even if we concluded that we will not go to great lengths in openwrt to maintain it. so if something good comes along, or an upstream default changes, we change with it. 2011-02-17 12:08 wolfspraul: yes, but it's also a dangerous checkbox. the more you rely on it, the more problems people will have who develop things outside of openwrt. 2011-02-17 12:08 but because it is on the radar, hopefully the breakage will be communicated much more prominently 2011-02-17 12:08 wpwrak: no, inside openwrt you can pick different uclibc versions 2011-02-17 12:08 i'd say the long discussion proves that package-based upgrades are a comlex thing. 2011-02-17 12:08 likes the image-based release model. K.I.S." 2011-02-17 12:08 S. 2011-02-17 12:09 wolfspraul: (breakage) i would hope, though, that uclibc doesn't inflict breakage too casually when merely enabling features 2011-02-17 12:09 definitely. that's why until today for both jlime, debian, openwrt, all that is communicated is 'here is this image, reflash this and try it out' 2011-02-17 12:09 wpwrak: ask uclibc folks 2011-02-17 12:09 im off 2011-02-17 12:09 n8 2011-02-17 12:09 wolfspraul: (image-based) rafa already agrees that going package-based will be better :) 2011-02-17 12:10 ah, it's not late yet :-) so just: cu later... 2011-02-17 12:10 ;-)) 2011-02-17 12:11 wolfspraul: my idea for the rootfs is to use the myroot approach. there you can make your rootfs "a la carte" from packages. then all you need is a "default menu" that lists likely choices 2011-02-17 12:14 wpwrak: in openwrt, we will experiment with the ImageBuilder a bit more 2011-02-17 12:14 so you can still have an "official" rootfs image (that's useful because it's one stop shopping for an initial installation. kinda like an ubuntu install cd.), but there's nothing "magic" about that rootfs 2011-02-17 12:14 the IB is supposedly offering exactly that kind of functionality 2011-02-17 12:14 perfect 2011-02-17 12:14 instead of building images, we may try to build all packages, and then use the imagebuilder to build a 'full_system' type image 2011-02-17 12:15 there are many options everywhere, I'm sure there are options in debian and jlime too 2011-02-17 12:15 yup, that sounds good 2011-02-17 12:15 one by one, let's see what works 2011-02-17 12:15 wpwrak: initial rootfs.. like the bootstrap? 2011-02-17 12:15 i hope to apply myroot to jlime. should be easy, just didn't have time yet. (and nobody else has beaten me to it .... hi, zrafa ;-) 2011-02-17 12:16 zrafa: the rootfs you install on a blank device 2011-02-17 12:17 zrafa: it should probably be more than a just a menu with the installer, to give people a nice initial experience. but it doesn't have to be overly loaded either. 2011-02-17 12:17 wpwrak: wolfspraul : I really like the idea to use openwrt or OE to keep a good repository full of packages. And because those repositories have all the base system packages as well it would be great to use something like myrootfs from wpwrak. So all the effort would go to keep good packages already prepared for nn, and they live on the repo. All is there waiting for fun. And for the rootfs we could use something like myrootfs which just take the proper p 2011-02-17 12:17 zrafa: showcase the ten nicest/most useful applications maybe. 2011-02-17 12:17 wpwrak: wolfspraul : and prepare the rootfs we want. 2011-02-17 12:18 leave the rest to opkg/qpkg 2011-02-17 12:18 wpwrak: ah.. I see.. bootstrap + menu + 10 best applications ;) 2011-02-17 12:18 wpwrak: nothing that myrootfs or similar can not do :) 2011-02-17 12:19 wpwrak: let me move and I will find the time. Of course, for a minimal bootstrap I could see my rootfs and try to merge it with packages from current jlime repo. 2011-02-17 12:22 yes, you could also start with a "traditional" rootfs. the advantage of myroot would be that other people could very easily make their own variants. 2011-02-17 12:31 about the myrootfs approach: could put that into a .cgi script hosted on qi-hardware.Â Â customized rootfs downloads :) 2011-02-17 12:33 that's funny.. there are ~1500 Ben users globally, maybe 50 % are active users and you are talking about customized images! 2011-02-17 12:34 even less. there are only about 1100 Ben users, and I doubt 50% are 'active', let's say defined as using their Bens daily. 2011-02-17 12:34 that number may be as low as 50-100? not sure of course. 2011-02-17 12:34 maybe we could think like "is this patricular package presented on the first CD of Ubuntu?" 2011-02-17 12:34 it may be more, especially if you include people that use it once in a while. 2011-02-17 12:34 then we won't have to argue :) 2011-02-17 12:35 I am not worried at all about these numbers by the way. 2011-02-17 12:35 you could just offer the imagebuilder for download along with the rootfs iamges 2011-02-17 12:35 what we attempt is truly different, and the nucleus needs to be right to even be able to grow. 2011-02-17 12:35 me too.. i'm happy about myself :) 2011-02-17 12:35 then people who want their own images without compiling can use it to roll their own 2011-02-17 12:35 I need to sell 200 Milkymist One this year, and get some crucial community going there - that will be hard! 2011-02-17 12:35 but step by step 2011-02-17 12:35 things are moving 2011-02-17 12:36 yeah, that imagebuilder idea is appealling 2011-02-17 12:37 people could just tick packages they need, and viola - they got their image to flash fast 2011-02-17 12:38 kyak: then we only need a javascript implementation of reflash_ben :) 2011-02-17 12:39 dvdk: yeah, i had that idea, too :) 2011-02-17 13:32 kyak: Hi. 2011-02-17 13:34 xiangfu: hey 2011-02-17 13:36 about " fbgs and ghostscript " ,Â Â the ghostscript very big. 2011-02-17 13:36 never tried fbgs. 2011-02-17 13:36 kyak: I got the new images: tered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify . 2011-02-17 13:36 -NickServ- You are now identified for xiangfu. 2011-02-17 13:36 * Now talking on #qi-hardware 2011-02-17 13:36 * Topic for #qi-hardware is: Copyleft hardware - time is on our side | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs | Welcome and please ask your questions... 2011-02-17 13:36 * Topic for #qi-hardware set by qi-bot!~qi-bot@turandot.qi-hardware.com at Fri Aug 13 16:04:55 2010 2011-02-17 13:36 kyak, sorry. 2011-02-17 13:36 here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02162011-0724/ 2011-02-17 13:39 xiangfu: going over config.full_system: plplot actually made it into the image!? 2011-02-17 13:40 xiangfu: cool! going to try it today 2011-02-17 13:40 dvdk: no yet. there isÂ Â some compile error.Â Â sorry. don't have time work on that. 2011-02-17 13:40 xiangfu: because it's still listed in the config 2011-02-17 13:40 xiangfu: no problem. 2011-02-17 13:41 dvdk: it's list config mean we want but it into images ;-) 2011-02-17 13:42 dvdk: plplot is listed as a modules.. guess xiangfy was compiling with IGNORE_ERRORS=m 2011-02-17 13:42 xiangfu, sorry :) 2011-02-17 13:42 dvdk: before I run 'make' . there is a small shell : http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/bin/patch-openwrt.sh 2011-02-17 13:42 xiangfu: did you have any troubles with pango? 2011-02-17 13:42 kyak: browsing online, it's listed as 'y' http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/data/qi_lb60/conf/config.full_system 2011-02-17 13:42 dvdk: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02162011-0724/config 2011-02-17 13:43 dvdk: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/bin/patch-openwrt.sh check this. 2011-02-17 13:43