2011-02-16 02:45 xiangfu: do we have new image? :-) 2011-02-16 02:46 xiangfu: morning there 2011-02-16 02:46 ! 2011-02-16 02:46 kristianpaul: test version : http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02132011-0750/ 2011-02-16 02:46 kristianpaul: I am also testing...Â Â :) 2011-02-16 02:46 good, i'll do same 2011-02-16 02:46 I will do a fast test. then send email to list. then move them to downloads.qi-hardware.com 2011-02-16 02:47 kk 2011-02-16 02:48 Is sdk avalible for 686?.. 2011-02-16 02:51 argg http://paste.debian.net/107781/ 2011-02-16 02:52 kristianpaul: no. but I can try to build it in my PC. but you need wait at least ~30 hours. build from 0 needs ~30 hours. maybe I not build all packages in my pc. :) 2011-02-16 02:53 kristianpaul: the "len 454656 " is not correct. 2011-02-16 02:54 it's should be :"Finish! (len 524288 start_page 0 page_num 128)" 2011-02-16 02:54 are you sure using : http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02132011-0750/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin ? 2011-02-16 02:55 boot to usbboot hardware mode , try again. 2011-02-16 02:55 np i can build on mine too 2011-02-16 02:55 just asking just i case ;-) 2011-02-16 02:56 i chenged usb port it works now 2011-02-16 03:02 kristianpaul: ok. check the http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image#Configuration. you may want remove the CONFIG_ALL=y :) 2011-02-16 03:03 kristianpaul: by the way there are bug when compile openwrt. I put the patch here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.patches/ 2011-02-16 03:03 everytime we update the feeds.conf there are different package not compile :( 2011-02-16 03:04 :S 2011-02-16 03:07 xiangfu: did we set CONFIG_ALL=y in config.full_system ? 2011-02-16 03:07 wolfspraul: yes. 2011-02-16 03:07 I don't think that's a good idea. 2011-02-16 03:07 the people that were used to using config.full_system will all (100%) run into this and need manual explanation to remove it. 2011-02-16 03:07 if you make a change like this, you need a new name 2011-02-16 03:07 config.something_new 2011-02-16 03:08 otherwise others will fall into the trap (as you see now) 2011-02-16 03:08 no, I will not create another new name. 2011-02-16 03:08 I can add "CONFIG_ALL=y" manually in buildhost. 2011-02-16 03:08 sure, also works 2011-02-16 03:09 there only one line different "CONFIG_ALL=y" 2011-02-16 03:09 my point is just that by enabling CONFIG_ALL=y, you change the nature/main characteristic of building config.full_system 2011-02-16 03:09 so other people who are using config.full_system will learn this the hard way 2011-02-16 03:09 ok. 2011-02-16 03:09 not out of their own choice, at their own timing, but by having their expectation what config.full_system does suddenly broken one day 2011-02-16 03:10 I will remove it. add some comment in config.full_system. 2011-02-16 03:10 good thing we only have a few people bulding config.full_system, I think they all already fell into this by now. 2011-02-16 03:10 if we had more people using it, you would need to communicate with each one of them now :-) 2011-02-16 03:10 and explain them about CONFIG_ALL and that they have to manually disable it. 2011-02-16 03:11 yes. 2011-02-16 03:13 I enable by thinking. config.full_system is reproduce the buildhost compile :) 2011-02-16 03:13 ok I will disable it now. and add some comment. 2011-02-16 03:13 I understand why you enabled it. but you forgot the consequence for others using config.full_system. the difficulty of communicating this change to them, and the timing of the change for them. 2011-02-16 03:14 even though there are only 3-5 people using this, it's hard to communicate the same message to them at the same time. 2011-02-16 03:14 if there were dozens or hundreds, it would be crazy difficult 2011-02-16 03:16 wolfspraul: yes. now understand 2011-02-16 03:16 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: disable CONFIG_ALL, add Tile and gottet http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a344fe 2011-02-16 03:17 Can i just freely set CC=my-gcc just before a ./configure ? 2011-02-16 03:18 Or how i can really force to not use the CC=gcc already defined on a Makefile.. 2011-02-16 03:21 ah ok... prefix=$HOME CC=cc CFLAGS="-O4" ./configure 2011-02-16 03:23 oh my fault ! i need read more about gnu :-) 2011-02-16 03:23 hate hiden spaces 2011-02-16 03:30 kristianpaul: well.. you are right, but no all work always. Are you trying to use a toolchain ? 2011-02-16 03:30 zrafa: yes 2011-02-16 03:31 okey.. you could set some vars if the toolchain does not bring some profile 2011-02-16 03:31 yeah is already documented it seems 2011-02-16 03:31 zrafa: http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_build_instructions 2011-02-16 03:31 take a look plese :-) 2011-02-16 03:32 I think i'll end with a script to automat that, is so annying do it manually for 5th time !! 2011-02-16 03:32 kristianpaul: okey.. but first.. YOu can set some vars. Like CC, LD, CFLAGS, AS, AR, LDFLAGS, STRIP, OBJDUMP 2011-02-16 03:32 kristianpaul: and most of the configure(s) will use them 2011-02-16 03:32 set as? 2011-02-16 03:33 export CC=my-gcc 2011-02-16 03:33 export CC=sdsds or CC ./configure -- 2011-02-16 03:33 ah ! 2011-02-16 03:33 export CFLAGS="-I/my/path/to/include -Os.. etc" 2011-02-16 03:33 like that 2011-02-16 03:34 that more clean, less typing also :-) 2011-02-16 03:34 now let me check those build instructions 2011-02-16 03:36 kristianpaul: I use often the --host= with configure.. and for example, when I have set the env with the openmoko tooolchain or with jlime toolchain I run configure with : ./configure --host=arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi (for openmoko.. which has all the toolchain binaries named arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-*) 2011-02-16 03:37 kristianpaul: well, the http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_build_instructions instructions are clear :) 2011-02-16 03:37 sure ! 2011-02-16 03:37 it set all the env at the same command line of configure 2011-02-16 03:37 that is okey 2011-02-16 03:37 what is wrong? 2011-02-16 03:37 openjpeg need to modify Makefile... 2011-02-16 03:37 why?? 2011-02-16 03:38 I do not know .. you asked "can i just set... bla bla?" 2011-02-16 03:38 jje 2011-02-16 03:38 yes 2011-02-16 03:38 thats another question :-) 2011-02-16 03:39 kristianpaul: if the makefile has harcoded the gcc family binaries and the soft does not provide configure then yes, you will need to modify makefile. You could do it generic 2011-02-16 03:39 so it just use CC value 2011-02-16 03:39 uses 2011-02-16 03:43 ah missing configure, right 2011-02-16 05:53 bartbes: hey! it's cool. How do i know which games are available? Have you thought about something like nlove-run --list to list available games from the repo? 2011-02-16 06:20 [commit] kyak: supertux: fix some levels using salcon.mod instead of SALCON.MOD http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9cf9d67 2011-02-16 06:27 [commit] kyak: config.full_system: add supertux, terminus-font http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/846efe8 2011-02-16 06:27 [commit] kyak: config.full_system: build gcc-mips, make, binutils as modules. Remove http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d18c108 2011-02-16 06:29 xiangfu: do you think it makes sense to remove packages that are built as modules from config.full_system at all? Since you are building CONFIG_ALL, they will be included as modules anyway... 2011-02-16 06:30 yes. sure. 2011-02-16 06:31 kyak: by the way. I got an idea that remove the openwrt-xburst.git/files/ to a package. 2011-02-16 06:31 mv them to nanonote-file package. 2011-02-16 06:32 then add small shell script file to /etc/uci-defaults. copy all those overwrite file from like '/usr/lib/nanonote-overwrite/*' to /etc/ 2011-02-16 06:33 kyak: I mess up the build folder of buildhost. I have to re-build from "0" again. mean needs wait more then 30 hours, I can release a test version of image. 2011-02-16 06:33 feel sorry for so delay for openwrt release. :( 2011-02-16 06:40 xiangfu: not a problem. A consistent image would be so much better 2011-02-16 06:41 (also so the people would see #1 compilation count in uname -a, it is an indication that the image was built from the first time and fine) 2011-02-16 06:41 it also feels kinda funny to see numbers like #32 in jlime :) 2011-02-16 06:42 the number shows the level of confidence in make system 2011-02-16 06:49 [commit] kyak: config.full_system: remove "=m" packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/40a69aa 2011-02-16 09:04 wow! I'm in top-10 smiles 2011-02-16 09:05 where is your smile at the end? :) 2011-02-16 09:15 ;) 2011-02-16 09:15 and pair for reserve :) :) 2011-02-16 09:57 hm.. my friend posted message about openpandora 2011-02-16 09:58 (in russian) http://www.hpc.ru/board/viewtopic.php?p=1683414#1683414 2011-02-16 10:13 looks like your friend is disappointed 2011-02-16 10:17 kinda.. 2011-02-16 10:17 devices with keyboard are unpopular 2011-02-16 10:17 because most of users are readers, not writers :) 2011-02-16 10:31 xiangfu: still missed brainless in your last patch to config.full_system :'( 2011-02-16 10:35 dvdk: why won't you add it yourself? ;) 2011-02-16 10:36 does not want to inject more bugs :) 2011-02-16 10:37 that's called "injecting your packages into rootfs" :) 2011-02-16 11:37 kyak: ehm, there's no way yet 2011-02-16 11:37 but once I get some more spare time I will do stuff like that 2011-02-16 11:37 together with versioning 2011-02-16 11:38 I can give you the current list though 2011-02-16 11:40 sure, go ahead 2011-02-16 11:42 CartesianCardinalZap 2011-02-16 11:42 clock 2011-02-16 11:42 EarthDefenders 2011-02-16 11:42 npong 2011-02-16 11:42 snake 2011-02-16 11:43 ok, i'll give it a try :) 2011-02-16 11:43 CartesianCardinalZap - what a name! 2011-02-16 11:43 yeah... 2011-02-16 12:53 kyak: uname # number does not show any level of confidence in make system. It is just from kernel IIRC (and it is not built with rootfs). And in fact, it shows our work with kernel 2.6.34, adding new features and removing uneeded 2011-02-16 12:54 kyak: building kernel always works if compiler is a good one for kernel and your config is okey 2011-02-16 12:56 zrafa: bigger # show how many times the kernel has been built without running make clean. If you trust your make system, feel free to us old object files. I prefer (and it is generally accepted - have a look it linux distros around) to know that my kernel.. 2011-02-16 12:56 ..was built from scratch, thus leaving no chance for odl lefovers 2011-02-16 12:58 kyak: yeah, sure. But it is not wrong when you are just adding and removing features. The idea was showing kristoffer all the features added/removed until he thinks it is fine 2011-02-16 12:59 it is make, it knows a bit what to do 2011-02-16 13:01 yeah, i just wondering why it is such a problem to build the release image of jlime from scratch 2011-02-16 13:02 just like xiangfy is doing now for openwrt 2011-02-16 13:03 kyak: about distros and kernel: yeah, you are right. But it is not a distro from scratch (if you are talking about betas).. It is a work which shows features to discuss. If you want to build jlime from scratch use OE, B_Lizzard is doing some work with preview release there. Maybe you like that, we give you that 2011-02-16 13:04 kyak: no a lot of advertising about that here because that is not a proper distro for qi, very log discussed already 2011-02-16 13:04 btw, i've seen one of the images of B_Lizzard, it's pretty good 2011-02-16 13:04 Thanks, kyak 2011-02-16 13:04 the setup wizard is a nice idea 2011-02-16 13:05 I think I'll start over right this time 2011-02-16 13:05 With EFL 2011-02-16 13:05 B_Lizzard: it was showed on fosdem 2011-02-16 13:05 B_Lizzard: EFL will not like you on nn :( 2011-02-16 13:05 zrafa, I know, I made an image for tuxbrain with quake etc 2011-02-16 13:05 Why not? 2011-02-16 13:06 B_Lizzard: it uses 32bbp internally IIRC, and nn just hast 16bbp mode. Maybe I am wrong, I should check nn features 2011-02-16 13:06 but if that is like I remember then every time EFL wants to show something it will take time translating 32 -> 16 2011-02-16 13:06 eh, what EFL? 2011-02-16 13:06 *what is 2011-02-16 13:07 kyak: Enlightenment Foundation Libraries 2011-02-16 13:08 B_Lizzard: but well, for simple widgets it should be nice anyway.. And no a lot of time lost (we will not write games with that :P ) 2011-02-16 13:09 ah, ok.. that reminds we about efforts of bartbes to build e17 for usage without X 2011-02-16 13:09 zrafa, otherwise we should try making our own widget set 2011-02-16 13:09 Or porting SDL-Widgets to C 2011-02-16 13:09 kyak: how was that bartbes work? 2011-02-16 13:09 bartbes: btw, did you have any luck building e17? 2011-02-16 13:10 hm, i think i remembered correctly.. now i'm not sure :) 2011-02-16 13:10 kyak: the libraries works on fb+sdl, but no sure if the WM 2011-02-16 13:10 kyak: I remember I built for him e17. It is on extra packages. 2011-02-16 13:10 kyak: but no remember him building it himself 2011-02-16 13:11 zrafa: oh, ok.. So the WM is not going to work without X, right? 2011-02-16 13:11 B_Lizzard: I did a little wrapper for SDL-Widgets for just a button. No nice :( It works, but it takes work. The developer is not interested, and also I started to add some way to press buttons with keyboard. ANd the developer did not like the idea :P 2011-02-16 13:12 B_Lizzard: he said that if we are going to do that (adding qwerty support to SDL-widgets) he will not accept those features and we will need to fork .. He was happy it seems :) 2011-02-16 13:12 As I said, either from scratch or remake it in C 2011-02-16 13:12 kyak: I think so, but no sure 2011-02-16 13:12 This should take work 2011-02-16 13:13 zrafa: do i understand corretly that you are trying to build some WM using EFL on top of fb/SDL? 2011-02-16 13:13 EFL is promising, it has Samsung's backing, and it recently reached version 1.0 2011-02-16 13:13 Well, the base EFL libraries, anyways. 2011-02-16 13:15 kyak: no. I just built the EFL and e17. No more. I tried to start the wm on X. Black screen appeared like if it is working. Because there are not shortcuts.. I could not do anything (I would need to press right mouse button to find some menu for example). After that 2011-02-16 13:15 I stoped trying. I just uploaded the packages because maybe somebody would like to try some E17 application, which should work. 2011-02-16 13:15 (or write an application using efl) 2011-02-16 13:17 B_Lizzard: yeah, we could write that in C and sdl. And we need qwerty support :P 2011-02-16 13:18 zrafa, you are the expert here 2011-02-16 13:18 I basically need some way of making applications with a modern widget set 2011-02-16 13:18 I cannot continue making Muffinman without applications 2011-02-16 13:19 I am going to address tuxbrain's various issues 2011-02-16 13:19 But really, my main problem is the lack of applications 2011-02-16 13:19 B_Lizzard: expert: no much, just theory. We can start using sdl-widgets as start point as you suggested. And write a few widgets. It could be useful for qi-openwrt as well because we are going to use sdl. 2011-02-16 13:20 The SDL-Widgets source code is a mess 2011-02-16 13:20 zrafa: do there's a new release of jlime coming ? btw, i don't see a reason why we couldn't discuss jlime (in the context of the nanonote) here 2011-02-16 13:20 I wonder how you can find your way through that mess 2011-02-16 13:20 wpwrak, the latest release from me is available on the website 2011-02-16 13:21 Check the front page for that blog post 2011-02-16 13:22 wpwrak: B_Lizzard is doing the proper work with muffinman on OE (and kristoffer is pushing the patches, he has the power). No idea when I will try to do something for a muffinman useful for qi. I mean, qi community would need some way to build the OE jlime without the already patented problem discussed. Who will do that work? (on OE I mean) 2011-02-16 13:23 zrafa, if it wasn't for EFL and Elementary I wouldn't think of it twice, but it seems a bit useless 2011-02-16 13:23 B_Lizzard: sdl-widgets.. yes. I read it. It is not big thought, and it is simple (still if it is a mess). 2011-02-16 13:24 If you think we can work something up quickly (in months), we could sure do that 2011-02-16 13:24 I'd be interested in making a shell-script bindings 2011-02-16 13:24 -a 2011-02-16 13:24 zrafa: i thought you resolved patented issues and OE was capable of making the "clean" rootfs by using some flags (as seen in mplayer's recipy, for instance) 2011-02-16 13:24 wpwrak: so.. yes, muffinman has had a lot of work last weeks (thanks B_Lizzard for that). Just we did not say much here. 2011-02-16 13:25 kyak: no. I just did a jlime version without patented technologis for qi servers. 2011-02-16 13:26 B_Lizzard: ah.. like zenity? 2011-02-16 13:26 Ugh, no 2011-02-16 13:26 B_Lizzard: more like what? 2011-02-16 13:26 what's the problem to make the clean version again? it doesn't require any manual work, just set the flag? 2011-02-16 13:26 zrafa: i think the "build fill distro, then remove the offending stuff before uploading" approach would be quite acceptable 2011-02-16 13:27 Well, a bit more powerful 2011-02-16 13:27 I guess 2011-02-16 13:27 zenity doesn't let you play with widgets 2011-02-16 13:27 B_Lizzard: yea, but the idea I mean. SOmething useful to use with scripts right? 2011-02-16 13:28 Yeah, but more powerful for full applications and whatnot 2011-02-16 13:28 B_Lizzard: (front page) nice ! 2011-02-16 13:28 kyak: no sure. I do not know OE (internally). Which flag you mean? 2011-02-16 13:28 kyak: i think the issue is that there is no such flag in OE :) 2011-02-16 13:28 Yes, yes, you can have OE build you stuff sans patented technologies by setting a variable 2011-02-16 13:29 B_Lizzard: oh, great ! so the problem has already been solved ? 2011-02-16 13:29 wpwrak: ("build fill distro, then remove the offending stuff before uploading) yeah, but the rootfs built from OE is hard to modify. The repository would be okey 2011-02-16 13:29 ENTERPRISE_DISTRO 2011-02-16 13:29 zrafa: well, if you have a look here : http://cgit.openembedded.org/cgit.cgi/openembedded/tree/recipes/mplayer/mplayer_0.0+1.0rc2.bb, you'll see the ENTERPRISE_DISTRO flag 2011-02-16 13:29 Well, I don't set that but I guess yes. 2011-02-16 13:29 so building a clean image is just the matter of unsetting this flag 2011-02-16 13:30 Not really 2011-02-16 13:30 just like BUILD_PATENDED in openwrt 2011-02-16 13:30 kyak: B_Lizzard: have you tried that? (flag). I remember now others talking about that flag. It did not work for others when they discussed that 2011-02-16 13:30 I still ship GMU and mpg123 and whatnot 2011-02-16 13:31 B_Lizzard: FLAG=PATENTED_STUFF_ONLY 2011-02-16 13:31 openwrt ships gmu, too. Just exclude mp3 support for clean image 2011-02-16 13:31 B_Lizzard: then build :) 2011-02-16 13:31 kyak: i think ENTERPRISE_DISTRO works the other way: set it and the nasty things disappear 2011-02-16 13:31 wpwrak: whatever.. :) 2011-02-16 13:33 zrafa: (root image) well, one could just adopt the myroot approach for making the rootfs image anyway. that would make it more sane anyway. away with all the heathen rituals surrounding these rootfs images ! :) 2011-02-16 13:33 zrafa: i'm not really into patents and stuff, but aren't you afraid to host "unclean" images on your server? Is it legal? If it is legal, why qi is not doing that? 2011-02-16 13:34 B_Lizzard:Â Â build_repo.sh :Â Â for i in all_packages ; doÂ Â package_has_patented_stuff j && build jÂ Â ; done 2011-02-16 13:34 So, zrafa, what do you think? 2011-02-16 13:34 kyak: jlime doesn't sell hardware 2011-02-16 13:34 wpwrak: so it is only prohibited for companies who sell hardware? 2011-02-16 13:34 kyak: it is legal if you do not sell hardware with that 2011-02-16 13:34 I don't think Sweden respects software patents. 2011-02-16 13:35 wpwrak: yeah, my root would be the best. I agree 2011-02-16 13:35 kyak: well ... let's say that you're much less likely to get into trouble with software 2011-02-16 13:35 qi could ship "free" versions of openwrt and suggest "non-free" version for re-flasinh. Would it be legal? 2011-02-16 13:35 wpwrak: and like I have said before, I do not like openwrt or OE or whatever for building rootfs :) 2011-02-16 13:35 kyak: with hardware, we know that you get attacked if you do that 2011-02-16 13:35 wpwrak: ok, i see 2011-02-16 13:36 kyak: qi can't officially "suggest". that would still be considered infringement 2011-02-16 13:36 kyak: all is okey. But qi could be sue by others if that patented stuff is on qi servers or links from qi servers 2011-02-16 13:36 kyak: you'd basically advertize the capability 2011-02-16 13:36 kyak: still if qi does not sell the hardware with the problem inside 2011-02-16 13:37 B_Lizzard: Sweden does not respect anything 2011-02-16 13:37 they could say that the "official software image" page on qi-s wiki links to jlime. And jlime offeres patented stuff. Then jlime will have problems 2011-02-16 13:37 Um, I don't think it has to do with selling hardware or not 2011-02-16 13:38 Nor is Qi responsible is someone downloads an mp3 codec when he hasn't payed the license cost 2011-02-16 13:38 Well, wherever that applies. 2011-02-16 13:39 kyak: (link to jlime) most likely, qi would have a problem, because it would be advertized as "official" 2011-02-16 13:40 kyak: jlime does not sell hardware, so jlime is okey. 2011-02-16 13:40 kyak: opions differ in whether a "non-advertizing" link would also be an issue. wolfgang thinks it would. 2011-02-16 13:40 kyak: I mean, jlime will not have problems for the patented stuff. Just the people selling hardware will have. 2011-02-16 13:41 wpwrak: it's there on wiki.. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Official_Software_Image 2011-02-16 13:41 kyak: so if you do, let me put some jlime link on your web site if you would like to check out if that is true or not :D 2011-02-16 13:41 zrafa: Russia is just like Sweden :) 2011-02-16 13:41 kyak: no 2011-02-16 13:42 kyak: the link on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Official_Software_Image 2011-02-16 13:42 does not point to jlime.com 2011-02-16 13:42 kyak: so that link is okey 2011-02-16 13:42 zrafa: jlime could probably still get problems. e.g., they could try to get the server shut down. or go after any participants in countries where they can make the patents stick. (note that also the EU is partially allowing sw patenta) 2011-02-16 13:43 zrafa: hm, yeah, it's pointing to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Jlime which in turn points to jlime.com! 2011-02-16 13:43 wpwrak: yeah, but that is another issue. The people doing sues want money 2011-02-16 13:43 zrafa: but it would a) cost more than what they could wring out of you guys, b) may look bad, c) you're not visible enough to really matter. 2011-02-16 13:43 kyak: yes? 2011-02-16 13:43 are you sure? I did not add that 2011-02-16 13:43 zrafa: change jlime to ubuntu or fedora and the story may be very different 2011-02-16 13:43 yeah, i'm reading now 2011-02-16 13:44 kyak: the first link. Right. Let me fix. That is not the idea. It is supposly dont having links 2011-02-16 13:44 kyak: ("official" link) heh ;-) i'll leave this to wolfgang to sort out. in my opinion, a mere reference ought to be fine 2011-02-16 13:45 well, teechnically speaking, just mentioning "jlime" in qi-'s wiki then would lead to problems 2011-02-16 13:45 because a customer can google for jlime 2011-02-16 13:45 zrafa: (people suing want money) sometimes, they just sue you even if you have no money, to intimidate others 2011-02-16 13:45 kyak: fixed. great 2011-02-16 13:45 kyak: wolfgang says that google is enough of a barrier 2011-02-16 13:46 all right! it looks for me, that it is both super hard and super easy to sue someone for patenting issues.. 2011-02-16 13:46 kyak: there are no clear legal rules in all this. the question is simply at what level of provocation you'd expect the other side to leash out 2011-02-16 13:47 it's a very complicated question :) 2011-02-16 13:47 wpwrak: I guess it's patent day again. I am proposing a slight semantic clarification. 2011-02-16 13:47 wpwrak: well, I will try to upload all the stuff as anonymous, using a proxy, and asking to my sister to do that. So I do not get in troubles ;) 2011-02-16 13:47 kyak: you can sue anyone at any time 2011-02-16 13:47 'software patent' means that a patent infringement claim can be made against a software vendor 2011-02-16 13:47 kyak: even if you have nothing, you can make this very costly for them 2011-02-16 13:47 plop 2011-02-16 13:48 wpwrak: sue and wine, i mean 2011-02-16 13:48 *win 2011-02-16 13:48 'software patent' does not mean that a non-software patent is not covering software. in any of the big patent jurisdictions, you can bring forward a 'software patent' infringement claim against a hardware vendor. what is patented is the implementation (which has to be a physical machine) 2011-02-16 13:48 kyak: define "victory" :-) get a judge rule in your favour ? or are yuo happy enough if you've destroyed your opponent ? 2011-02-16 13:49 the discussion about 'software patents' is largely misleading (and in favor of patent owners who can calm down some people) 2011-02-16 13:49 kyak: note that a lot of cases don't finish - people settle out of court 2011-02-16 13:49 'software patents' would never be a thread to pure free software anyway, because even if the patent applies, you cannot expect to squeeze much money out of people who have no money and are not making money with software. 2011-02-16 13:49 threat 2011-02-16 13:50 the point of 'software patents' is to be able to tax software vendors, the largest are in the US, so that's all fine 2011-02-16 13:50 wolfspraul: (no threat to free sw) except if it's "pour encouranger les autres" 2011-02-16 13:50 extending true 'software patents' to the EU would yield negligible additional revenue for the patent owners 2011-02-16 13:50 mp3 patents are 'software patents' of course, they describe an algorithm/program 2011-02-16 13:51 wolfspraul: it is not completely correct that there is nothing to take from free software. Free sftware is stealing their clients 2011-02-16 13:51 but in the EU the infringement can only be brought forward if you sell a physical machine 2011-02-16 13:51 which is where the money is anyway. look at the money and you understand why the patent owners don't need software patents in the EU :-) 2011-02-16 13:52 'software patent' = patent that allows an infringement claim against Microsoft 2011-02-16 13:52 I rest my case. :-) 2011-02-16 13:52 ;-) 2011-02-16 13:53 wolfspraul: do you have an idea how much it would cost to include the mp3 support, for exmaple? 2011-02-16 13:53 i mean, legally 2011-02-16 13:54 the biggest cost would come in the exclusion of others, submitting oneself to a bad system, breaking the idea of copyleft 2011-02-16 13:55 if you have to have this patent license, you need to make a down-payment of a 6-figure USD amount into an escrow account (as a protection in case you go bankrupt). 2011-02-16 13:55 then you need to pay per device, the amount is somewhere between a few cents and a few USD 2011-02-16 13:56 they also tie you into strict NDAs so you cannot talk about any of your specific arrangements 2011-02-16 13:56 I'm sure people get grossly different deals in this system :-) 2011-02-16 13:56 that's why there is this idea of a 'patent flat tax', which of course the patent owners fight as hard as they can. 2011-02-16 13:57 kyak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Jlime&diff=17468&oldid=16858Â Â : Some "Janvlug" guy added 2011-02-16 13:57 but everyone has to do that sooner or later? look at all major linux vendors 2011-02-16 13:57 a patent owner is not obliged to license the patent under the same terms to everybody 2011-02-16 13:57 kyak: absolutely not. 2011-02-16 13:57 kyak: that link to jlime.com. I guess that it is a little hard to keep the wiki pages without links 2011-02-16 13:57 everybody has to wait another 4-7 years until this taxing scheme is over. 2011-02-16 13:57 kyak: no idea how somebody at qi would suggest to track that 2011-02-16 13:57 zrafa: "Janvlug", what a backstubber ;) 2011-02-16 13:57 80% of the world population are not affected anyway, so we are only talking about the other 20% 2011-02-16 13:58 kyak: hehe :) 2011-02-16 13:58 paying a criminal organisation money is immoral 2011-02-16 13:58 wolfspraul: 4-7 years? Do you mean that you only have to pay for 4-7 years? 2011-02-16 14:00 or maybe you are saying that Free Software will take over the world in 4-7 years? :) 2011-02-16 14:01 definitely mp3 will become patent-free in 70 years... 2011-02-16 14:01 kyak: i think you're confusing patents and copyright here :) 2011-02-16 14:02 i surely confuse a lot, because i'm not into the subject 2011-02-16 14:03 in 70 year there might be no intellectual property at all, at least i hope so 2011-02-16 14:03 of course! no humans - no intellectual property -) 2011-02-16 14:05 nah i hope humans figure out that the whole intellectual property concept ist totally bullshit 2011-02-16 14:05 though i fear 70 years arent that realistic, sadly 2011-02-16 14:06 kyak: mp3 will become patent free in a few years 2011-02-16 14:07 patent rights and copyright might have had some use in the past but now they just do harm mainly 2011-02-16 14:07 copyright is even longer than that - it's 70 years after the death of the author 2011-02-16 14:07 and in some cases even more, like 90, 100 years after death of author 2011-02-16 14:13 wolfspraul: copyright is as long as disney sees fit :) 2011-02-16 14:38 kyak, zrafa: I successfully built the EFL for nn 2011-02-16 14:38 e17 however, needs X 2011-02-16 14:39 though I don't know if you guys have heard of OPIE? 2011-02-16 14:39 so what use is EFL without e17? 2011-02-16 14:40 it's like gtk 2011-02-16 14:40 "so what use is Gtk without Gnome?" 2011-02-16 14:40 same answer 2011-02-16 14:40 ok, so one can write gui applications using EFL 2011-02-16 14:40 yes 2011-02-16 14:40 is it using linux framebuffer directly? 2011-02-16 14:41 it can use several backends, including directfb and fbdev 2011-02-16 14:41 ok, sounds intersting 2011-02-16 14:41 are there many usable apps utilizing EFL? 2011-02-16 14:42 I suppose just about all apps written for e17 but not directly part of e17 itself 2011-02-16 14:43 in fact, since in e17 just about everything is an edje file 2011-02-16 14:43 you could even 'run' a wallpaper 2011-02-16 14:43 :P 2011-02-16 14:43 i think it would be really great to replace gmenu2x some day 2011-02-16 14:44 or at least drastically rework it 2011-02-16 14:44 which is why I thought OPIE is interesting 2011-02-16 14:44 that and the fact that it's qt based afaik 2011-02-16 14:44 it means "rewrite" it.. because as fasr as i know it was already heavily reworked 2011-02-16 14:44 and since qt runs on the nn already 2011-02-16 14:44 never heard of OPIE 2011-02-16 14:45 wikipedia links ftw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPIE_user_interface 2011-02-16 14:46 hm it says jlime is using opie 2011-02-16 14:47 when i think about how many interfaces are avaialble without X, i don't even understand why X still exists :) sdl/qt4/gtk/svga/efl... what else 2011-02-16 14:48 heh 2011-02-16 14:48 because of multiple clients 2011-02-16 14:48 I don't know if you've noticed, but there can only be one app using the framebuffer at any given time 2011-02-16 14:49 which is the reason why gmenu2x closes, runs its app, then restarts 2011-02-16 14:49 hm, i'm not sure.. there could be /dev/fbX 2011-02-16 14:49 then several apps could be run? 2011-02-16 14:49 possibly.. but in any case not in the same window 2011-02-16 14:49 gmenu2x is closed for memory saving reasons :) 2011-02-16 14:49 i.e. a window manager won't really work 2011-02-16 14:49 not just that 2011-02-16 14:50 as long as it's open no other framebuffer app can run 2011-02-16 14:52 http://home.comcast.net/~fbui/ 2011-02-16 14:52 i'm sure there are others 2011-02-16 14:52 framebuffer window managers 2011-02-16 14:52 gtg now 2011-02-16 14:55 kyak: that looks very nice, but doesn't it need programs to support it? 2011-02-16 15:21 it should be part of qi, because it is the drink of programmers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_%28drink%29 2011-02-16 15:23 bartbes: we used opien long time ago in jlime, but no now. It is good if you just use it and only that 2011-02-16 15:25 kyak: EFL is the only good library for embedded devices around, but it needs power and modern devices (for modern I mean most of current closed mobile phones and things like that) 2011-02-16 15:32 wow that fbui indeed looks nice, seems like it is not developed actively anymore but the idea is very great 2011-02-16 15:56 zrafa: hmm, no opencola light ? :( 2011-02-16 15:57 wpwrak: remove sugar :P 2011-02-16 16:02 eek 2011-02-16 17:02 smiles 2011-02-16 17:12 rjeffries: If you can hookup a SPI like ethernet card to the nanonote you have your tiny freedombox 2011-02-16 17:12 Is easy i think, as linux already have drivers for then.. 2011-02-16 17:13 Actually i want to do it, may be with the basic ethernet module jeelabs sell 2011-02-16 17:14 maybe wpwrak will design an ethernet 8:10 card. but would it need it;s own power supply? 2011-02-16 17:14 or a custom desig if you want be fancy, but not for me now 2011-02-16 17:14 dont think other people will, just do it or buy it :-) 2011-02-16 17:15 power suply, easy part it just get that from the nanonote 2011-02-16 17:15 kristianpaul 2011-02-16 17:15 understood 2011-02-16 17:15 kristianpaul: http://hacknmod.com/hack/add-internet-to-your-arduino-on-the-same-circuit-board/ something like that? 2011-02-16 17:15 food 2011-02-16 17:16 i need go lunch soon :-) 2011-02-16 17:16 rjeffries: but hey man, it is posible !!! 2011-02-16 17:16 I like freedombox idea more if you can power it with a nanonote, why not... 2011-02-16 17:16