2011-02-13 00:00 nand is _really_ scary. only watch it if you want to really know what happens with your bits in flash 2011-02-13 00:00 feels so much better on an SD card 2011-02-13 00:00 however, yaffs2-shutdown = needed each time you change something, kernel-partition-"shutdown" = needed each time you change the kernel. so again, it's only comparable if you have a dedicated boot partition anyway 2011-02-13 00:00 wolfspraul: same problem. just more honey around it to hide it (another 8051) 2011-02-13 00:00 Not bad at all: 20:42 rjeffries: about 1 EUR per UBB, MOQ 500. I was figuring 1,000 would be an economic qty. 2011-02-13 00:01 wolfspraul: (sd card) i'll print and frame this one ;-) 2011-02-13 00:01 I was kidding :-) I just wanted to advertise the fantastic proprietary technology that will 'take care' of 'all' problems once could ever encounter with raw NAND. Werner has a secret side job to advertize those bits... 2011-02-13 00:01 well.. hdds or dram isnt less scary in the same level of detail 2011-02-13 00:02 rjeffries: at 1000, you'd drop down to something like 0.75 EUR/UBB. looks like a medium-volume fab. if you want to make > 10k, you probably need to go to china :) 2011-02-13 00:02 hdds in the end 'recieve rf from the disk and 'statistically' isolate bits there and grade and rate them. same spookyness. 2011-02-13 00:03 wolfspraul: it's called "outsourcing" ;-) 2011-02-13 00:03 ram.. needs to be refreshed and has spooky realworld failrates. nobody really wants to know. often just nothing bad enough happens one even notices 2011-02-13 00:20 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update package revision to 25513, xfce: using nls.mk http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/e2738c0 2011-02-13 00:25 wpwrak //re UBB// if you want to make > 10k, you probably need to go to china :) //and wolfspraul needs to sell more Bens// 2011-02-13 00:25 rjeffries: for every 1000 UBB you buy, you get a free ben ;-) 2011-02-13 00:26 I read your 2006 PDF about making the LED gdget. nice piece of work. very instructive 2011-02-13 00:26 (so change EUR 2 per UBB. at production cost EUR 0.75 1000k+, you get a decent margin, even with the ben on top :) 2011-02-13 00:26 err, 1k+ ;-) 2011-02-13 00:27 rjeffries: thanks :) alas, already a bit obsolete 2011-02-13 00:27 there is more to wpwrak than meets the eye 2011-02-13 00:28 itwill be intereting to compart USA estimate with Tuxbrain I suspect similar prices actually 2011-02-13 00:29 unless he is gettinga special deal from a friend of a friend or a guy who knows a guy who... 2011-02-13 00:29 i would expect a larger price range in the US, with the silicon valley. nothing rock-bottom, though. you have to go to asia for that. 2011-02-13 00:30 has Tuxbrain decided to push forwar with UBB. if so I will get estimates ten simply buy some for me from tuxbrain simple as tat 2011-02-13 00:30 the cheapest price we can get is zero dollars/ea 2011-02-13 00:30 this is so dmall and so simple that it is all setup I think 2011-02-13 00:31 I am just learning anyway 2011-02-13 00:31 s/ten/then 2011-02-13 00:31 I know a great guy in Asia 2011-02-13 00:32 It's funny, he klives in Cina, has a shop in Hong King, has people in Taiwan, and an engineer in Argentina and others in France, Germany Russia and god only knows weher else 2011-02-13 00:33 his name sounds German but it may be just a virtual persona. not that there is anything wrong with that 2011-02-13 01:06 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: write default u-boot env to nand where first boot http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/65c0e03 2011-02-13 03:21 [commit] kyak: ben-cyrillic: remove small glitch in fonts http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e82c47b 2011-02-13 03:22 [commit] kyak: setfont2: remove small glitch in fonts http://qi-hw.com/p/setfont2/30bc035 2011-02-13 03:23 [commit] kyak: setfont2: update to the latest git http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/154d831 2011-02-13 06:06 zrafa: are you here? 2011-02-13 06:07 zrafa: i'm trying to port supertux to openwrt, based on Jlime port here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/jlime/repository/ipk/extra-packages/sources/supertux-milestone1.tar.gz 2011-02-13 06:08 zrafa: can you show your build settings for the package? i.e. configure and make flags 2011-02-13 06:09 basically, it builds and runs fine, but objects in the game are not adapted to 320x240 (though i use --enable-320x240) 2011-02-13 06:10 zrafa: regarding other "extra packages" in Jlime, where i can find the recipy file for them (i.e. how you built them with OE)? 2011-02-13 06:37 [commit] David Kühling: brainless: use faster gforth-fast interpreter; upstream fixes http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/13c75d1 2011-02-13 06:39 [commit] David Kühling: add icon for brainless (launched in utf-8 graphics mode in a jfbterm) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/63f462c 2011-02-13 07:55 hmm, it appears I can't use OpenID on the wiki... 2011-02-13 07:55 maybe I need to link it to my account first? 2011-02-13 08:05 bartbes: sorry yes, that's one of the really high priority bugs I want to fix 2011-02-13 08:06 knowing that you also ran into it makes it high+ priority :-) 2011-02-13 08:07 alright, then at least it isn't me ;) 2011-02-13 08:08 definitely not. unfortunately I've heard that there are bugs in the openid plugin on mediawiki, so I'm hoping if I just wait a little I can upgrade and it will go away. 2011-02-13 08:08 unfortunately it may not be that easy... oh well. 2011-02-13 08:08 it's 100% a bug on the server 2011-02-13 08:11 yeah, my openid provider tells me access had been granted 2011-02-13 08:11 so it got there, at least 2011-02-13 08:11 installs gforth 2011-02-13 08:11 I lost a lot of programs in that reflash.. 2011-02-13 08:12 (it refused to boot a while back) 2011-02-13 08:17 (win 28 2011-02-13 08:18 oops 2011-02-13 08:18 asleep 2011-02-13 08:19 hullo 2011-02-13 08:23 wolfspraul: what time zone do the timestamps reprsent in irc log http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/latest.log.html 2011-02-13 08:34 well, what does it look like? 2011-02-13 08:34 21:08 for me (beijing) minus 13 = 08:08 2011-02-13 08:34 could be EST? 2011-02-13 08:34 or maybe EST-1 2011-02-13 08:35 I don't know. does it matter? 2011-02-13 08:35 maybe for clarity it should be UTC 2011-02-13 08:36 [commit] bartbes: nlove: Font display fix http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/48effcf 2011-02-13 08:37 oh and for those wondering, I also created a compatibility listing recently 2011-02-13 08:37 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/differences.html 2011-02-13 08:39 cool, about 50% supported, that looks promising! 2011-02-13 08:39 is there any love game we can bundle? 2011-02-13 08:39 I mean include in the openwrt image. 2011-02-13 08:40 someone who packages nlove for caanoo and dingoo ported some games.. 2011-02-13 08:41 oh and I have a pong and a snake game 2011-02-13 08:41 btw, that's only for graphics and audio 2011-02-13 08:41 the rest is completely supported 2011-02-13 08:42 I added a todo item to change irclogs time stamps to utc, but it's not very high priority for me. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#To_Do 2011-02-13 08:42 bartbes: you should package some games, too.. Otherwise is kind of useless... 2011-02-13 08:42 thanks for reporting though! 2011-02-13 08:45 kyak: how do you suppose I distribute them? 2011-02-13 08:45 *recommend 2011-02-13 08:46 wolfspraul: irc logs timestamp comes from eggdrop.. i might have a look 2011-02-13 08:47 bartbes: make the "Games" submenu "nlove games"? 2011-02-13 08:48 sure, they will depend on nlove itself 2011-02-13 08:48 kyak: I am asking about distribution first ;) 2011-02-13 08:48 where are there games coming from? 2011-02-13 08:48 do they have a download link? 2011-02-13 08:48 yeah 2011-02-13 08:48 they are single files 2011-02-13 08:48 so what's the problem? 2011-02-13 08:49 also.. 2011-02-13 08:49 Auto-merging package/uboot-xburst/Makefile 2011-02-13 08:49 CONFLICT (add/add): Merge conflict in package/uboot-xburst/Makefile 2011-02-13 08:49 kyak: how do you suggest doing it? packaging them seems a bit.. overcomplicated 2011-02-13 08:49 yeah, it's a git trick.. you need to save your local changes, then git fetch -a; git reset --hard origin/master 2011-02-13 08:50 bartbes: complicated? really? 2011-02-13 08:50 you need to do it once, and then only change names and download links :) 2011-02-13 08:50 giving people a download link is easier 2011-02-13 08:50 :P 2011-02-13 08:50 that worked, thanks 2011-02-13 08:50 i remember you gave me a download link once 2011-02-13 08:51 what happened next? i forgot it 2011-02-13 08:51 just in the moment when i wanted to give it a try to nlove :) 2011-02-13 08:52 so how do you think people will find the packages? 2011-02-13 08:53 easily, the will search for nlove games with opkg 2011-02-13 08:53 also i think these games are small, some of them could be included in the image 2011-02-13 08:53 or maybe all of them 2011-02-13 13:56 test test 2011-02-13 14:12 bartbes: btw, logs are UTC now :) 2011-02-13 14:12 wrong person? 2011-02-13 14:23 bartbes: ah, sorry :) 2011-02-13 14:27 oh, nlove is in the image now? 2011-02-13 14:27 cool 2011-02-13 14:27 David Kuehling around? 2011-02-13 14:36 thanks for the answer: 06:10 bartbes: btw, logs are UTC now :)  //and a GREAT answer indeed. 2011-02-13 14:40 kyak: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/games/ 2011-02-13 14:40 oops 2011-02-13 14:40 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/nlove_r494-1_xburst.ipk 2011-02-13 14:41 then 3 games 2011-02-13 14:41 'games' 2011-02-13 14:41 2 games and a clock 2011-02-13 14:41 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/games/clock.love 2011-02-13 14:41 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/games/npong.love 2011-02-13 14:41 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/games/snake.love 2011-02-13 14:45 bartbes: thanks! i'll give it a try 2011-02-13 15:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_red_hen  //a great story // 2011-02-13 15:35 rjeffries: so, what code have you committed today? 2011-02-13 15:37 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: new command "stats" to print path statistics http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/dfc53c7 2011-02-13 15:40 bartbes: is there a central location for nlove games? 2011-02-13 15:40 yeah, my dropbox :P 2011-02-13 15:40 but not really, no 2011-02-13 15:41 that'a pity 2011-02-13 15:41 there aren't too many atm either 2011-02-13 15:41 because well, when you don't have a specific device in mind, why would you create your game at 320x240? 2011-02-13 15:42 kristianpaul: just connected 2011-02-13 15:43 bartbes: yeah, you are right, but many games should scale well down to 320x240 2011-02-13 15:43 sure 2011-02-13 15:43 and I'd use love.graphics.scale.. if not for it not being there :P 2011-02-13 15:43 does it mean that games are limited to a specific resolution from the very beginning? 2011-02-13 15:44 but basically if you take you have some free time and you are motivated it's not hard to rapidly expand the amount of nlove games 2011-02-13 15:44 no 2011-02-13 15:44 it just means that scaling images is woefully inefficient atm 2011-02-13 15:45 bartbes, kyak: i already planned porting liballegro to the NN 2011-02-13 15:45 and scaling the screen is impossible 2011-02-13 15:45 (as of yet) 2011-02-13 15:45 but if your code handles it you can do any resolution you want 2011-02-13 15:45 very simple graphics library, with a lot of older games available, that might match the NNs capability 2011-02-13 15:45 dvdk: Hey, :) 2011-02-13 15:45 you're just stuck to the nn's 320x240 2011-02-13 15:45 dvdk: never heard of it, ok 2011-02-13 15:45 kristianpaul: hi, what's up? 2011-02-13 15:46 talula.demon.co.uk/allegro  afair 2011-02-13 15:46 dvdk: yeah, can you do framebuffer stuff with forth? 2011-02-13 15:46 they also have a pretty powerful graphics-mode text-editor that's based on allegro 2011-02-13 15:46 kristianpaul: sort of. 2011-02-13 15:46 dvdk: do you have examples of it 2011-02-13 15:46 ? 2011-02-13 15:46 kristianpaul: i wrote a wrapper that allows calling out to dynamic libraries. 2011-02-13 15:47 kristianpaul: that german article had some ffi, so in theory you could use directfb 2011-02-13 15:47 dvdk: oh wow, *the* david kühling? 2011-02-13 15:47 bartbes: no, does'nt use libffi if you mean that 2011-02-13 15:47 ffi is a term 2011-02-13 15:47 libffi is a lib 2011-02-13 15:47 ah german.. 2011-02-13 15:47 so ffi != libffi 2011-02-13 15:48 iirc you used some mips assembly to achieve your ffi 2011-02-13 15:48 so wha i used is dlopen/dlsym plus a hand-made libffi-like wrapper 2011-02-13 15:48 a single, generic call wrapper 2011-02-13 15:48 , that allows calling of most mips-oabi functions 2011-02-13 15:49 here is the svn : 2011-02-13 15:49 also, dvdk, you are a forth genius 2011-02-13 15:49 http://mosquito.dyndns.tv/freesvn/trunk/nanonote/forth/ 2011-02-13 15:50 forth genius <- indeed 2011-02-13 15:50 barbes: forth is just like any other programmin language.  just a matter of getting used to it.  plus i was exposed to it at pretty young age :) 2011-02-13 15:50 but you still using it? 2011-02-13 15:51 i mean not just nanonote related work.. 2011-02-13 15:51 sure, but it still takes skill 2011-02-13 15:51 barbes: nowadays you can write equally obfuscated code with C++ (boost+mpl) :) 2011-02-13 15:51 heh 2011-02-13 15:52 hmm 2011-02-13 15:52 at least forth doesn't produce error messages, where a single message takes up > 1 screen (try boost::lambda :) 2011-02-13 15:53 no thanks ;-) 2011-02-13 15:53 kyak: I started writing some script to run nlove games and download them from my dropbox in case you didn't have them 2011-02-13 15:53 but I didn't quite succeed yet 2011-02-13 15:53 http://gnustep.istheshit.net/ 2011-02-13 15:56 bartbes: the idea is good! maybe even to have some simple interface to choose and run nlove games, and download them from qi's mirror if it's not downloaded yet 2011-02-13 15:57 kyak: if I can get it to work I'll probably make it create gmenu2x shortcuts too 2011-02-13 15:57 yeah, would be great 2011-02-13 15:59 kristianpaul (user forth): (almost) only for fun.  as a fast script language. 2011-02-13 15:59 s/user/using/ 2011-02-13 16:00 kyak: alright, it's working 2011-02-13 16:01 I probably have some outdated versions though 2011-02-13 16:01 and there's no way to update yet.. 2011-02-13 16:01 maybe.. rsync? 2011-02-13 16:04 no http 2011-02-13 16:04 hmm 2011-02-13 16:04 k 2011-02-13 16:05 kyak: a full repo might be a bit much :P 2011-02-13 16:05 whatever, no updates for now then 2011-02-13 16:05 I'll work that out later 2011-02-13 16:06 bartbes: you could speak to wolfgang about hosting soem nlove games on qi server 2011-02-13 16:07 games ! 2011-02-13 16:07 open wrt current image lack some less console like games afaik.. :( 2011-02-13 16:08 nlove will be great :) 2011-02-13 16:12 kristianpaul: there are few qt4 games (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications#games), should be included in the next release 2011-02-13 16:13 ah, good 2011-02-13 16:13 please add content too ie, music 2011-02-13 16:13 :-) 2011-02-13 16:13 kyak: alright, it even creates gmenu2x launchers now 2011-02-13 16:14 qball :-) 2011-02-13 16:14 he, the Worm icon suguest the game you'll open is wormux ;-) 2011-02-13 16:14 bartbes: ah, so it's kind of installer :) 2011-02-13 16:15 kyak: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/nlove-obtain 2011-02-13 16:15 drop that in /usr/bin 2011-02-13 16:15 then run: nlove-obtain snake 2011-02-13 16:15 it will download and run snake 2011-02-13 16:15 and create a launcher in gmenu2x 2011-02-13 16:15 I should work on the name ;) 2011-02-13 16:16 zgv :D 2011-02-13 16:16 nlove-run coould be good :) 2011-02-13 16:16 btw, Textmode, you don't happen to have a game idea that works on 320x240? 2011-02-13 16:16 bartbes: nothing I would actually consider a game. 2011-02-13 16:17 aww 2011-02-13 16:17 plus, I'd have to convert it a bit. 2011-02-13 16:17 why port games from jlime too? 2011-02-13 16:18 zrafa: or those games just run on top of X? 2011-02-13 16:18 i want to port supertux, it runs in SDL , but there are problem as i mentioned to zrafa above.. 2011-02-13 16:19 and gnurobbo? 2011-02-13 16:19 morning 2011-02-13 16:19 Block rage? 2011-02-13 16:19 zrafa: morning from pole to pole :-) 2011-02-13 16:20 kyak: supertux: which stuff does not fit well?.. the menues suck a bit but you can read it completely. ANd when you are playing all the stuff is well sized. 2011-02-13 16:20 also an audio recoder frontend will be nice 2011-02-13 16:20 block rage would also be nice to port 2011-02-13 16:20 kyak: most of the "extra packages" were not build with OE, those were built using the toolchain built by OE 2011-02-13 16:21 zrafa: in jlime, yes, it's OK. since i use the same source as you use for jlime, that's why i wonder what else could be different? do you have a recipy for supertux? 2011-02-13 16:21 hm, ok.. so it is not actually ported to OE 2011-02-13 16:21 at least could you show the command lien you used to build it? 2011-02-13 16:22 kyak: no, no recipy. It was built with ./configure ; make I think. BUt IIRC OE added supertux qvga recently. We could check that 2011-02-13 16:23 zrafa: there is no "configure". There are however autogen.sh and gp2x_configure. Also, there msut be some options for configure 2011-02-13 16:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_using_SDL 2011-02-13 16:23 frozzen bubble :D 2011-02-13 16:23 kyak: let me check.. but I did not do anything special. I was talking with supertux devs at that time and they just pointed me to use an specific version from svn. Let me check those sources again 2011-02-13 16:23 i think you should really have a look at allegro games.  since allegro dates back from ms-dos times, many games should still support low resolution modes 2011-02-13 16:24 zrafa: sure, thanks! 2011-02-13 16:24 kyak: ah.. that is the problem. There is not sources 2011-02-13 16:24 :P 2011-02-13 16:24 kyak: where did you get those? 2011-02-13 16:25 prince of persia ! 2011-02-13 16:25 from http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/jlime/repository/ipk/extra-packages/sources/ 2011-02-13 16:25 dvdk: do you remember if allegro works nice on fb? 2011-02-13 16:25 zrafa: very nice.  supports a lot of graphis backends, btw, but just including fbdev should be best (in terms of code size etc.) 2011-02-13 16:25 kyak: he.. I was checking jlime.com :) 2011-02-13 16:26 zrafa: ok, could you point me to the right sources? 2011-02-13 16:26 zrafa: also it supports running 8-bit games on 32-bit modes (on-the-fly conversion) 2011-02-13 16:26 (i.e. this is where svgalib fails) 2011-02-13 16:27 kyak: those are right. I used gp2x configure IIRC. Because those are the proper sources. 2011-02-13 16:27 oh, ok ! 2011-02-13 16:28 zrafa: gp2x_configure is calling regular configure. So you must run ./autogen.sh first? 2011-02-13 16:28 http://happypenguin.org/news?nsearch=320x240&Go=Go 2011-02-13 16:29 zrafa: ok, let me ask you simple. Is there any way to reproduce your build for Jlime? In general, how do you track pacakges like this (for exmaple, when releasign new Jlime version)? 2011-02-13 16:31 [commit] bartbes: Add nlove-run to nlove package http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/90251ca 2011-02-13 16:32 kyak: ^ 2011-02-13 16:33 of course this is the point where it turns out to be broken :P 2011-02-13 16:33 bartbes: i guess $(INSTALL_BIN) ./files/nlove-run should read as "$(INSTALL_BIN) $(FILES_DIR)/nlove-run $(1)/usr/bin/ 2011-02-13 16:33 see 2011-02-13 16:33 told you 2011-02-13 16:33 (./files is godd, too) 2011-02-13 16:34 :) 2011-02-13 16:34 I copied ./files from another Makefile 2011-02-13 16:34 which one? 2011-02-13 16:34 but I'll go for FILES_DIR for good measure 2011-02-13 16:34 ehm.. 2011-02-13 16:34 gforth 2011-02-13 16:34 i mean, there must be two agruments to $(INSTALL_BIN) 2011-02-13 16:34 oh yeah, that was my fault 2011-02-13 16:34 bartbes: very bad example (gforth), was th 1st package i ported 2011-02-13 16:35 [commit] bartbes: Fixed nlove makefile http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8dca631 2011-02-13 16:35 kyak: this better 2011-02-13 16:35 should be good :( 2011-02-13 16:35 :) 2011-02-13 16:35 cool 2011-02-13 16:36 updates feeds 2011-02-13 16:37 tested nlove-run snake 2011-02-13 16:37 worked fine! 2011-02-13 16:37 hmmm 2011-02-13 16:38 it downloads it every time 2011-02-13 16:49 kyak: nobody builds that again, that is already built 2011-02-13 16:50 huh? do yo umean that you just copy binary from release to release? 2011-02-13 16:51 kyak: you are asking because you see the development environment from openwrt pov. But well, there are serveral points. Extra packages are just that, extra packages built with toolchain. 2011-02-13 16:52 kyak: we do not build that again and again. we just use opkg-arget to include that into rootfs. It is not cp binaries 2011-02-13 16:52 kyak: do you know how opkg-target works? 2011-02-13 16:52 zrafa: what would you do if someone want to follow your steps? Or if you want to build it again after one year? 2011-02-13 16:53 no, i don't know how opkg-target works 2011-02-13 16:53 kyak: extra packages are not intended to track them and next year to build again. It is just a build done with toolchain. Then many users can test it. If all are happy, we can include that into OE properly. 2011-02-13 16:53 kyak: that is the meaning of extra packages there. 2011-02-13 16:53 kyak: you are asking about packages which are not tracke 2011-02-13 16:53 d 2011-02-13 16:54 ok, i got it. extra packages are not tracked 2011-02-13 16:54 kyak: oh oops, totally my fault 2011-02-13 16:54 :( 2011-02-13 16:55 kyak: could you try http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/nlove-run before I commit again and make a fool of myself? :P 2011-02-13 16:55 kyak: and opkg-target is a tool which let you install packages into rootfs from host. For example. Surely you build the 80% of your rootfs again and again without chagnges on those packages. Which is the goal on that?. opkg-target would let you to install those packages which you already built once and you do not need to build again 2011-02-13 16:56 kyak: if a rootfs building proccess takes 50 hours, you could do that in two hours building just the new packages or packages which changed, and then opkg-target would install the packges already built but which did not change 2011-02-13 16:56 bartbes: it is working now :) thanks! 2011-02-13 16:57 kyak: good, time to commit then 2011-02-13 16:57 zrafa: ok, this is clear. 2011-02-13 16:57 [commit] bartbes: Fixed nlove-run so it won't keep redownloading http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e901f0f 2011-02-13 16:57 zrafa: anyway, i have problems running supertux. No matter how i tried 2011-02-13 16:59 zrafa: that's why i was guessing that you made soem adjustments in the source code.. which might be not documented 2011-02-13 16:59 or maybe you build it in some other way, i don;'t know 2011-02-13 17:05 kyak: no, I did not do. Dont know anything about it. BUt well, we should try supertux recipe on curretn OE. They have a qvga version, which is tracked like you need. 2011-02-13 17:05 kyak: from my side I will build it again to check on nn. 2011-02-13 17:07 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system disable some demo and examples http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b0785fe 2011-02-13 17:07 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: uboot-xburst, add ubifs support http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1c3f083 2011-02-13 17:13 zrafa: ok, thanks.. 2011-02-13 17:15 wolfgang: load kernel from ubifs will increase ~5 seconds. 2011-02-13 17:15 this u-boot support load kernel from ubifs: de I wil 2011-02-13 17:16 sorry: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot-with-ubifs.bin 2011-02-13 17:16 zrafa: hm, can't seem to find supertux here: http://cgit.openembedded.org/cgit.cgi/openembedded/tree/recipes 2011-02-13 17:16 wolfgang. by pressing [F4] when poweron. u-boot will try to load ROOTFS:/boot/uImage. 2011-02-13 17:16 zrafa: oh, sorry, i need another eyes :) 2011-02-13 17:17 goto sleep 2011-02-13 17:20 normal boot. u-boot needs ~1second, load kernel from ubifs, u-boot needs ~6seconds 2011-02-13 17:20 with 512M rootfs of cause. 2011-02-13 17:20 1.5G rootfs needs more time. 2011-02-13 17:21 256M? 2011-02-13 17:21 hmm nv 2011-02-13 17:31 someone is confused. not everyone who is interest in Ben Nanonote is a code committer 2011-02-13 17:32 some go off and figur eout how to build Werner's PCB is a very CopyLeft manner 2011-02-13 17:32 but nice try, lekernel. God, I feel all warm and fuzzy and happy when I see your coments to me. 2011-02-13 17:32 lekernelrjeffries: so, what code have you committed today? 2011-02-13 17:52 rjeffries: sorry, could not resist. you are right, though you also talk/troll a lot :) 2011-02-13 17:57 xiangfu: hmm, what is the reason that ubifs is *that* slow? 2011-02-13 17:58 dvdk: may be not ubifs itself, just u-boot implementation... 2011-02-13 17:58 but this is a pure read-only implementation? 2011-02-13 18:00 regarding the opkg-target suggestion, did you look into the imagebuilder already? you can set it up to use external repos and just repack images with desired packages 2011-02-13 18:00 kristianpaul: i guess this is i/o bound speed, so for some reason, ubifs makes it necessary to read from much more blocks than just the kernel? 2011-02-13 18:01 xMff: you mean we could build out-of-the-box images with preinstalled s/w without recompilation? sounds nice.  remembers me of debian's lifecd-image tool 2011-02-13 18:02 (life-helper) 2011-02-13 18:02 dvdk: exactly 2011-02-13 18:02 http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/firmware.build 2011-02-13 18:03 and having lots of prebuild images (games, vs dev, vs. minimal etc.) ready for download would be very nice for users 2011-02-13 18:03 it is interesting for release images as it allows you to compile the IB once and then use that to generate various images 2011-02-13 18:03 dvdk: perhaps, but i'll wait xiangfu wake up and ask more, i dint understand well what he pointed, so i'm bit confused 2011-02-13 18:04 kristianpaul: maybe it would help to create another, smaller /boot ubifs partition? 2011-02-13 18:05 dvdk: yeah i was thiking same 2011-02-13 18:05 xiangfu ^ 2011-02-13 18:06 .. and another detail that makes things more comples :/ 2011-02-13 18:06 s/comples/complex/ 2011-02-13 18:06 hehe 2011-02-13 18:10 btw i've seen arm boxes that had soldered-on IDE-flash to get rid of such problems (i.e. wear-leveling in hw). 2011-02-13 18:11 but then i hate hw implementations that keep me from accessing my data at a low level (if things break). 2011-02-13 18:11 I think things will be better with no uboot in the middle 2011-02-13 18:12 kristianpaul: but how to load linux without uboot? 2011-02-13 18:12 a smaller boot stage 2011-02-13 18:12 i heard lars is working on something 2011-02-13 18:13 likes boot-loaders 2011-02-13 18:13 at least something to access, in case kernel broken 2011-02-13 18:13 I think irclog archive may have the ogg video of a faster boot in a dingux/pandora i dont remenber 2011-02-13 18:13 openfirmware was nice, btw 2011-02-13 18:14 if kernel broken in the nanonote you will have hardware-boot usbboot 2011-02-13 18:15 didn't hear much good about hardware-usbboot 2011-02-13 18:15 dvdk: (ubifs slowness) i think it's similar to jffs2. in jffs2, you need to scan the entire partition to collect the blocks. jffs2 assumes that any block can go bad and you thus can only be sure you have the latest version of a block when you've scanned everything for updates. 2011-02-13 18:15 actually with kernel broken in the nanonote i still not seen usefull uboot... 2011-02-13 18:15 wpwrak: yeah, no about jffs2, thought ubifs were properly redesigned 2011-02-13 18:15 s/no/know 2011-02-13 18:16 dvdk: (hw usbboot) the main problem is making that contact. if this was more like the reset button, it would be much easier. 2011-02-13 18:16 wpwrak: is it posible just drop the fs for kernel image? in the mm1 for example i think is written in a "raw" way 2011-02-13 18:16 wpwrak: yeah that'd be great, would sell my usbboot, for a boot-loader button :) 2011-02-13 18:17 kristianpaul: this is how it is done currently, afaik 2011-02-13 18:17 dvdk: seems that ubifs shares the same O(partition_size) property. there may be specific reasons why they prefer this over a "if block X fails, just nuke it" approach 2011-02-13 18:17 kristianpaul: so changing to ubifs would make things 6s slower than now 2011-02-13 18:17 dvdk: oh, i got it then ! 2011-02-13 18:17 :_) 2011-02-13 18:17 dvdk: part of it may be wear leveling 2011-02-13 18:18 wpwrak: well at least this way it's very easy to guarantee consistency.  if in doubt, use brute force 2011-02-13 18:18 dvdk: i.e., you don't want to update meta-data when blocks move around. thus you need to search for them 2011-02-13 18:18 ^ 2011-02-13 18:19 wpwrak: then let's abandon ubifs :) 2011-02-13 18:19 dvdk: (button) you can make a reset button for the alt + u keys i think :) 2011-02-13 18:19 kristianpaul: nope, alt+u is read by bootloader. 2011-02-13 18:19 dvdk: (6s) iff the boot/root partition stays at 0.5 GB. if going to a unified root/data partition, that should become more like 15 s 2011-02-13 18:19 well, 15-20 s 2011-02-13 18:20 wpwrak: yuck! 2011-02-13 18:20 (alt u) just U is enough 2011-02-13 18:20 starts to hate ubifs 2011-02-13 18:20 kristianpaul: i.e. its a sw-button.  hw-pin is below battery 2011-02-13 18:20 dvdk: yes 2011-02-13 18:21 dvdk: i like the idea of flash memory being a "black box". we all trust this approach when it comes to disks. why try to deal with physics we have very incomplete knowledge of with NAND ? 2011-02-13 18:22 dvdk: sorry i mean wire hw-boot pins to a convinient button 2011-02-13 18:22 wpwrak: have you ever tried what happens if you powerd down cf or ssds during use? 2011-02-13 18:22 kristianpaul: ah 2011-02-13 18:22 (usb boot) might be interesting to just wire up U such that it connect to this selection pin by hardware. wouldn't be bullet-proof, but probably sufficient 2011-02-13 18:22 wpwrak: irrepairable inconsistencies, no reformat possible :( 2011-02-13 18:23 wpwrak: the KI button is unused, currently, afaik 2011-02-13 18:23 wpwrak: ah you mean wire the hw-boot pinds to a pad in the keyboard? 2011-02-13 18:23 s/pinds/pins 2011-02-13 18:24 dvdk: (power down flash) so what exactly happens ? and how often does it happen ? flash memory gets powered down in mid-access all the time. yet you hear relatively little about catastrophic failure. 2011-02-13 18:24 kristianpaul: perhaps with some logic gates, yes 2011-02-13 18:24 wpwrak: bad engineering by whoever wrote the cf/ssd internal firmware :) 2011-02-13 18:24 wpwrak: yeah that will be cool 2011-02-13 18:25 wpwrak: ah wait, you did that with the idbg i remenber now ! 2011-02-13 18:26 of course thats other part that may be bricked too, so is trusty the button + logic arrange 2011-02-13 18:26 jeje http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Qi 2011-02-13 18:27 kristianpaul: idbg takes a different approach. there, you simply control the BOOT_SEL1 pin from the host 2011-02-13 18:29 dvdk: it would be good to have some experimental data for the effect of power interruption with modern flash devices. i suspect that a lot of the horror stories are quite exaggerated. 2011-02-13 18:33 wpwrak: colleague told me that no cf card they tried survived constant (1/min) power cycling for more than a day or something 2011-02-13 18:34 gotta go 2011-02-13 18:34 cu 2011-02-13 18:52 qtopia? 2011-02-13 18:53 or opie, for that matter 2011-02-13 18:55 actually, it seems it has an openembedded recipe 2011-02-13 18:55 so I guess jlime can already run it 2011-02-13 18:57 kristianpaul: assuming the matix is scanned with active row = L, inactive rows = Z, you could implement is with a few pull-ups and a circuit that does this: http://pastebin.com/mtXibTeh 2011-02-13 18:57 kristianpaul: (Q) is internal "memory". doesn't need to be accessible on the outside 2011-02-13 19:02 kristianpaul: nRST would be the system-wide active-low reset (RESETP_N), KO7I would be PC16 from the CPU, KO7O would be KEYOUT7 on the keyboard matrix 2011-02-13 19:07 actually, we can simplify this a little ... 2011-02-13 19:10 [commit] kyak: supertux: initial port http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8be5174 2011-02-13 19:11 there http://pastebin.com/Ag2QRk4a 2011-02-13 19:12 note that KEYOUT7 and Qi+1 have the same state. with A = L, and B = Z 2011-02-13 19:18 wpwrak: in wich datasheet page is PC16? 2011-02-13 19:18 found it 2011-02-13 19:33 wpwrak: i was thinking some mechanism that fire usboot when usb_minib connector is pluged 2011-02-13 19:34 that's cheating. too simple !!!! 2011-02-13 19:34 :D 2011-02-13 19:35 hm.. another man in ML talking about making phone :) 2011-02-13 19:36 kristianpaul: connect USBDET to BOOT_SEL1 and you're done 2011-02-13 19:36 ah wait, i dint knew it about USBDET 2011-02-13 19:37 completely unacceptable. there's not even a chance for obscure glitches and race conditions in this approach. what's left to debug then ? all the engineers will go hungry ! 2011-02-13 19:38 well, one disadvantage would be that you probably also trigger it on a software reset. that wouldn't be so nice. 2011-02-13 19:40 delay-reset chips are common those days too :) 2011-02-13 19:42 larsc: may i bother you with some trivia ? when you reboot the kernel, does it use a proper chip reset (watchdog ?) or something that doens't send the chip through its internal reset process ? 2011-02-13 19:43 it uses the watchdog 2011-02-13 19:43 with timeout 0 seconds 2011-02-13 19:44 larsc: thanks. so kristianpaul's approach would get you into usbboot after /sbin/reboot 2011-02-13 19:44 phew. still some engineering left to do then :) 2011-02-13 19:46 a latch would probably be enough, though. clock in USBDET on reset L->H 2011-02-13 19:46 so you still like my approach? :') 2011-02-13 19:46 i.e., some 741G79 2011-02-13 19:47 kristianpaul: i hate the approach 2011-02-13 19:47 kristianpaul: because i didn't have the idea ! 2011-02-13 19:47 hahaah xD 2011-02-13 19:48 oh wait. there's another problem 2011-02-13 19:48 you also end up in usbboot if you want to power up from usb in general 2011-02-13 19:48 yes 2011-02-13 19:48 i knew that 2011-02-13 19:49 but, well.. who really want to do that if is not for usbboot mode? 2011-02-13 19:49 i start my bens like this all the time 2011-02-13 19:49 surelly some very specific scenarios 2011-02-13 19:49 you dont count ;) 2011-02-13 19:49 grmbl :) 2011-02-13 19:52 what would work is if you sample USBDET only when the reset button is pressed. but then you race with the master reset logic, which would still have to be triggered by the system reset 2011-02-13 19:53 you could solve this by combining RESETK and RESETP_N in a gate, not with a wired AND. 2011-02-13 19:54 so we return to needing two gates. one to latch USBDET, the other to separate the reset sources 2011-02-13 19:57 :-| 2011-02-13 20:11 if we dont use USBDET and just a logic that power-up from vusb? or a signal from charge battery when vusb is detected? 2011-02-13 20:14 or instead, a signal fired when no-battery is present 2011-02-13 20:16 that doesn't seem to solve the problem that usb power may be present during normal use and also for normal power-up 2011-02-13 20:17 however, here's another idea: dual-use the reset button. short press = reset, long press = reset to usbboot 2011-02-13 20:18 you could accomplish this simply by putting an RC pair between RESETK and RESETP_N, plus connecting RESETK to BOOT_SEL1 2011-02-13 20:19 the RC (parallel) pair would deliver the reset pulse. if you keep on pressing RESETK, the cap recharges. if you release RESETK, it would deliver a positive surge, though. not sure if this is a problem or if it will be just consumed by clamp diodes. 2011-02-13 20:20 if it's an issue, use a monoflop 2011-02-13 20:24 i like RC idea 2011-02-13 20:28 a diode would solve the surge problem. so, R+C+D :) 2011-02-13 20:41 what is teh delay (lag) between a post on irc and it showing in http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/latest.log.html 2011-02-13 20:57 Linux fans... thats bad thing i think, as all you can wait from fans :-/ 2011-02-13 20:57 They just will swich to the next incartation of linux and something.. 2011-02-13 21:00 kristianpaul: ? 2011-02-13 21:09 Sundays are SLOOOOW here. where are your priorities, people? 2011-02-13 21:13 wpwrak: why not just connect one of the normal keyboard keys to the boot_sel pin?  when booted up, reconfigure the I/O as a gpio for keyboard function, at reset it again becomes the boot_sel pin. 2011-02-13 21:14 to prevent accidental use, you could use one of the F1-F8 keys, or some other  key that is otherwise seldomly used 2011-02-13 21:17 dvdk: bah, yet another lamely simple suggestion. where's the engineering spirit gone ? :) 2011-02-13 21:17 is thinking how to complicate things more 2011-02-13 21:18 btw the wikireader has a nice power/reset circuit: short keypress for power-on, long keypress for power-down 2011-02-13 21:19 (completely in hardware) 2011-02-13 21:20 wpwrak: wire the mircophone input to the boot_sel pin.  then provided pre-recorded audio that triggers the correct usb-boot sequence :) 2011-02-13 21:21 dvdk: like whistling a 1024 bit pseudo-random sequence ? 2011-02-13 21:21 wpwrak: you got it.  still too simple? 2011-02-13 21:22 prn? what? no ! 2011-02-13 21:22 ;) 2011-02-13 21:27 hey, actually i tought in taking advantage of the mechanical swich of headset input 2011-02-13 21:28 btw wrt UBI initialization: can't we just make the physical blocks larger (i.e. by combining 2 or 4 physical erase-blocks into 1 logical erase block?) 2011-02-13 21:28 this should decrease UBI initialization by factor 2 or 4 2011-02-13 21:28 (looked here: http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/doc/ubi.html#L_scalability) 2011-02-13 21:29 also they claim that "a 1GiB NAND flash found in OLPC XO-1 devices is attached for about 2 seconds; " 2011-02-13 21:30 dvdk: (1024 bit prs) the distributors could then sell trained birds to trigger usbboot ;) 2011-02-13 21:31 lol 2011-02-13 21:31 wpwrak: let's make whisteling seminars 2011-02-13 21:32 dvdk: (ubifs) their nand may be faster than ours 2011-02-13 21:35 rejon: phew. a voice of reason on the list. thanks. 2011-02-13 21:37 wpwrak :) 2011-02-13 21:43 rejon: indeed :) 2011-02-13 21:47 who got some scrilla to get realla 2011-02-13 22:09 aah ! of course my usb protocol decoder can't make sense of the data ! in invert, so SE0 becomes SE1. grr. 2011-02-13 22:12 okay. NOW i'm properly armed ;-) 2011-02-13 22:25 hello everybody !!! 2011-02-13 22:29 just wanted to ask if anybody has some answers regarding the future developement of nanonote ...? is this a proper place for this question ? 2011-02-13 22:30 Copyleft hardware - time is on our side | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs | Welcome and please ask your questions... 2011-02-13 22:30 topic^ 2011-02-13 22:35 would be interested to know about the future of nanonote also 2011-02-13 22:38 well, thanks @kristianpaul ... that's a lot of reading ... but for now just wanted to know if there are going to be any other Ben variants, like a Ben notebook (just a bigger screen), or a tablet Ben ? i would want to buy open source hardware, but i need to be able to use it somehow. By now, i can't seem to find a use for the nanonote. So... any other Ben variants based on the same hardware ? 2011-02-13 22:39 qwebirc33973: afaik i cant promess yoy anything else beyond what is right now 2011-02-13 22:39 s/yoy/you 2011-02-13 22:40 qwebirc33973: What you dint found in the nanonote that you're looking for? 2011-02-13 22:41 well... i can't use it 2011-02-13 22:41 You can use the Ben nanonote as it is right, now, some people listen music, other load maps on it, or take notes, or do some gaming 2011-02-13 22:42 yeah sure i understand that, but why?, feedback is good :-) 2011-02-13 22:42 i am not a hardware enthusiast, nor an electronic one. I can't use it, i need a bigger screen 2011-02-13 22:42 sory for my latency in typing 2011-02-13 22:43 oh, i see, so nanonote is not for you 2011-02-13 22:45 i'm sorry, but in it's form righ now, is not for me. I would really like it if it had a bigger screen. Is there anything that we can do towards this direction ? a bigger Ben nanonote ? 2011-02-13 22:46 Support the project buying one, that will help on future develoments 2011-02-13 22:48 yes ... i know that's how it works, i am well aware. BUT, what would it take to develop a bigger one ? 2011-02-13 22:50 I dont know, thats something that works on demand you know 2011-02-13 22:52 yes... well , is there anybody interested in something similar? can a poll or something be done somewhere ? 2011-02-13 22:52 qwebirc33973: it would take quite a bit of time and money.the idea is to keep the form factor for a while while advancing the rest of the technology (and infrastructure) 2011-02-13 22:54 that sounds perfectly sane, but a bigger screen , i think, will bring more supporters, since it has a bigger degre of usability , like office use ... 2011-02-13 22:55 qwebirc33973: it would also lose one rather distinguishing feature. also, in a small device, low specs are easier to forgive 2011-02-13 22:56 qwebirc33973: e.g., would you buy it if it just had a bigger screen ? but the same cpu, connectivity, memory, etc. ? 2011-02-13 22:57 yes , I would, is exactly what i am looking for 2011-02-13 22:58 There is a ereader that uses a xbusrt chip, and i think i saw it supported on the openwrt tree, larsc ? 2011-02-13 22:58 qwebirc33973: so the absence of usb host, wifi, would not matter ? also, would "bigger screen" mean only a larger physical size or also more pixels ? 2011-02-13 23:02 :) why would i want bigger pixels ? yes i think we need a screen variant with more pixels , something like 1024x600. wifi would not bother me too much. But i think a wired network could be useful, and easier to implement (this is just an opinion) 2011-02-13 23:04 qwebirc33973: 1024*600 would mean an 8x higher memory bandwidth used for graphics. also, most graphics operations would take ~4-8x longer. so the machine would be quite slow. 2011-02-13 23:05 and about low specs, i don't think you need bigger specs to read pdf, and write rich text documents 2011-02-13 23:05 qwebirc33973: also, you'd run out of memory much quicker, because any application that actually uses that many pixels would need ~8x as much memory for them 2011-02-13 23:05 well , that makes sense 2011-02-13 23:06 qwebirc33973: so you would have a machine with a large screen but that's extremely slow otherwise. would that still be attractive ? 2011-02-13 23:06 i'm guessing it should have somethig like 128 ram or something ? or more ? 2011-02-13 23:06 qwebirc33973: i think what you're looking for is a machine in a different class of hardware. sort of a tablet, with faster cpu, more memory, more connectivity options, etc. 2011-02-13 23:08 qwebirc33973: the problem with higher-spec machines is that a) the components get harder to obtain, b) the development cost is higher (r&d cost and also the initial investment into the first production run). who finances product that may need an investment of USD 1-2M ? 2011-02-13 23:09 What's the maximum speed for the usb port (at constant rate)? 2011-02-13 23:09 qwebirc33973: also, by positioning it as a tablet, it competes directly with companies that produce in large volumes. so it the feature/cost ratio would be bad. 2011-02-13 23:10 kuribas: speed doing what ? :) 2011-02-13 23:11 Recording musuc :) 2011-02-13 23:12 music 2011-02-13 23:12 kuribas: hmm .. so the ben would act as an audio-over-usb device ? 2011-02-13 23:13 yes! 2011-02-13 23:13 kuribas: i mean from the point of view of USB communication. there's some audio class for USB 2011-02-13 23:13 kuribas: but i don't know it we have gadget support for this in linux 2011-02-13 23:14 usb 2.0 should be capable of high speed, right? 2011-02-13 23:15 @wpwrak , you are killing my enthusiasm. This type of hardware, i think, has a user base wich relies on principles rather than actual spec/price ratios. I just wanted to know how much would it take to put a 10'' screen on the nanonote, because this is what i would support, with money (donation, buyng in advance, maybe a fundraising?) . 2011-02-13 23:15 kuribas: the ben should be usb 2.0 high-speed capable, yes 2011-02-13 23:16 qwebirc33973: heh, i just bring up the inconvenient facts that make this less straightforward than it may seem :) 2011-02-13 23:17 Cool.  I'll need at least 1.4 mbps for 44.1kHz * 16bit.  Prefarable 4.6 mbps for 96kHz * 24 bit. 2011-02-13 23:18 kuribas: sounds manageable. even full-speed (USB 1 or 2) could deliver that 2011-02-13 23:21 @wpwrak  well... i see ... but in your opinion, 128mb ram and a 10'' , are doable ? (or does this implies other changes) 2011-02-13 23:22 qwebirc33973: almost everything is "doable". the main problem would be financing. if you can bring some potent investor to the project, that would open a lot of doors 2011-02-13 23:23 qwebirc33973: e.g., if you want a display that's on par with current tablets, you'd compete with apple, samsung, hp, etc., for the attention of display manufacturers 2011-02-13 23:25 qwebirc33973: this kind of items isn't something that just build and send to supermarkets. they're usually built to order. and if they have customers who buy hundreds of thousand units, it will be difficult for you to get in an order for only a few thousand. 2011-02-13 23:26 qwebirc33973: also, you need to pay in advance. same for the rest of the device. chips and all that. if you need a better cpu, you need to establish contacts at companies that make such cpus. if you need a type of ram that's in demand, it's the same. 2011-02-13 23:26 qwebirc33973: even if the companies like you very much and don't mind working with you even for small quantities, you'll spend quite a lot of time just in meetings. 2011-02-13 23:31 qwebirc33973: by the way, there is another device in the qi-hw universe, completely different from the ben. it's the milkymist vj station. it's an even more radical design - the entire cpu core is open, implemented on an fpga. 2011-02-13 23:31 qwebirc33973: it's designed for audiovisual effects (video in/out, etc.), but there of course other things you could do with it as well 2011-02-13 23:35 qwebirc33973: regarding the performance of the ben base hardware, you could relatively easily double the memory bandwidth. beyond that, a major design effort would be needed. 2011-02-13 23:35 qwebirc33973: clock speed would stay in the same range, 360 MHz maximum. usb host (full-speed, not high speed) would be possible in a redesign. 2011-02-13 23:36 i'm not the enemy here. I really want to help, but it seems is out of my reach... for now. I really need to sleep right now but i will be back on this topic...  Thx you for your answers @wpwrak and @kristianpaul , and keep up the good work !!! (maybe tomorrow i'll manage to change my id/nick :) )  thx again bye bye 2011-02-13 23:37 qwebirc33973: you would need to find ~2000-5000 potential buyers to obtain good prices. if the number is smaller, the prices multiply. the cost making small numbers is almost constant, so if you, say, only have 1000 potentual buyers, 2011-02-13 23:37 qwebirc33973: the price would be 2-4 times than what you'd get with the larger numbers 2011-02-13 23:39 qwebirc33973: (not the enemy) hehe ;-) naw, it's just very common to have overly optimistic assumptions about what is involved in making hardware. but don't let that kill the enthusiasm. there are ways where you can still accomplish things, you just have to choose your battles carefully :) 2011-02-13 23:39 qwebirc33973: /nick you_nick 2011-02-13 23:40 zamox: : agree with wpwrak, your questions are very common, and you should be aware of the situation for that demand 2011-02-13 23:40 whee, welcome zamox ! :) 2011-02-13 23:40 kristianpaul: now that we know his name, we control his soul, right ? :) 2011-02-13 23:42 wpwrak: :-D 2011-02-13 23:42 thank you all :) , i'll be back tomorrow  :) ... a good night to everyone who is actually in the night, a good day otherwise ! :) bye 2011-02-13 23:44 romania, interesting 2011-02-13 23:49 loves his scope with deep memory. DIY USB decoding is fun :)