2011-02-10 00:56 <wolfspraul> not sure people here saw it - mirko posted a nice hoperf on ben article http://nanl.de/blog/2011/02/ben-nanonote-able-to-control-radio-power-sockets/
2011-02-10 00:59 <User> hello
2011-02-10 01:01 <User> anyone?
2011-02-10 01:06 <wolfspraul> left too soon :-)
2011-02-10 01:14 <tuxbrain> next new releases will have cute entries :)
2011-02-10 01:17 <tuxbrain> mirko's rf, Jay7 wife's cases, werner's ubb, fosdem pics ,kristianpaul's MM lua port and sure I'm missing something
2011-02-10 01:19 <tuxbrain> mirko did you have any other rf source to comm with NN?, a video demo of it working will be awesome to have :)
2011-02-10 01:22 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: can you add a few of those things are notes to the news page?
2011-02-10 01:23 <wolfspraul> I'll do it too but I have trouble keeping up with everything sometimes...
2011-02-10 01:23 <tuxbrain> Ya with rfm12 and 6lowpan the new rf standard instead of Bluetooth an wifi :)
2011-02-10 01:23 <tuxbrain> ok wolf I will
2011-02-10 01:24 <wolfspraul> no need for prettyprinting, just drop a note
2011-02-10 01:24 <wolfspraul> Jay7: the work of your wife is truly amazing! also congrats from me! Can you or your wife license this under cc-by so I can upload the pics into the qi wiki?
2011-02-10 01:25 <wolfspraul> if you just say 'that's ok' in this channel, that's perfectly fine...
2011-02-10 01:26 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: did you see the case group hug?
2011-02-10 01:26 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Nanonote-case-group-hug.jpg
2011-02-10 01:30 <tuxbrain> yep, I would love see Jane and Jay7's wife working toguether on this, huge potential dude
2011-02-10 01:32 <tuxbrain> Jay7: how many time takes to your wife do one of this marvells?
2011-02-10 01:33 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: did you say you want to have a cnc machine do the crocheting?
2011-02-10 01:33 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-02-10 01:34 <wolfspraul> did I understand you correctly there?
2011-02-10 01:34 <tuxbrain> yep
2011-02-10 01:34 <tuxbrain> that would be awesome :)
2011-02-10 01:34 <wolfspraul> ha! :-) hilarious
2011-02-10 01:34 <wolfspraul> yes
2011-02-10 01:34 <wolfspraul> indeed
2011-02-10 01:34 <wolfspraul> I think it would be very very hard, but hey, anything is possible. Don't underestimate the human hand...
2011-02-10 01:41 <tuxbrain> yeah awesome and funny at same time, yes I agree on dificulty I don't know how crochet works, but I remember my grandma doing very quick and complicated movements , if that movements can be translated to some kind of rotary/linear movements, as for example a sewing machine, can face it, a crochet RipRap or makerbot head. a video showing on slow motion the diferent crochet movements and diferent kind of dots, might help to think in such cnc tool.
2011-02-10 01:52 <kyak> wolfspraul: hi! i made some adjustments to the bot and documented it in server_setup. Could you have a look if this is sufficient to not swap it away on server reinstall/cleanup? :)
2011-02-10 01:58 <wolfspraul> kyak: no worry, I came across a bit drakonian, but actually I very much appreciate every bit of help, as you know :-)
2011-02-10 01:59 <wolfspraul> let me check the doc...
2011-02-10 02:00 <wolfspraul> oh I think it's nice!
2011-02-10 02:00 <wolfspraul> you built the 2 .so files on your local machine?
2011-02-10 02:00 <kyak> nope, on the server
2011-02-10 02:01 <wolfspraul> yes we could document that, but we can also do that next time. documentation can improve slowly :-)
2011-02-10 02:01 <wolfspraul> I may go over it one day to format it a bit more in line with the rest, but it's great! thanks a lot!
2011-02-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> so those modules are already working now?
2011-02-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> how does it work? we can send commands to qi-bot?
2011-02-10 02:02 <kyak> sure
2011-02-10 02:02 <kyak> !stats wolfspraul
2011-02-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> !stats wolfspraul
2011-02-10 02:02 <kyak> liek this :)
2011-02-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> oh
2011-02-10 02:02 <kyak> public commands are mentioned in wiki
2011-02-10 02:02 <wolfspraul> does everybody see the response?
2011-02-10 02:03 <kyak> same can be used in private msg, without "!"
2011-02-10 02:03 <rjeffries> !stats rjeffries
2011-02-10 02:03 <wolfspraul> private msg to the bot?
2011-02-10 02:03 <wolfspraul>  /msg qi-bot ?
2011-02-10 02:03 <kyak> yes, the response is sent to channel or privates msg
2011-02-10 02:04 <kyak> /msg qi-bot stat #qi-hardware nick
2011-02-10 02:04 <kyak> yea, me to -\
2011-02-10 02:05 <rjeffries> luak a small suggestion> IMO "stats" is more natural that "stat"
2011-02-10 02:05 <kyak> np to add anothe bind
2011-02-10 02:05 <rjeffries> s/luak/kyak
2011-02-10 02:05 <kyak> luke :)
2011-02-10 02:06 <rjeffries> what does idle-factor mean
2011-02-10 02:07 <kyak> some ratio between the time you idle and time you speak
2011-02-10 02:08 <kyak> the bigger the factor, the less you speak
2011-02-10 02:09 <rjeffries> so 99 would be nearly pure lurker and 0.5 would be always talking more or less
2011-02-10 02:09 <kyak> i think so
2011-02-10 02:09 <rjeffries> ok. cool.
2011-02-10 02:14 <kyak> wolfspraul: is there a way to upload text files (like configs) in wiki?
2011-02-10 02:14 <wolfspraul> I just added .txt upload for Jane, but she said it didn't work for her (strange cause I tested it)
2011-02-10 02:14 <wolfspraul> in general I would say - no
2011-02-10 02:14 <wolfspraul> the idea of wiki is wiki marup
2011-02-10 02:14 <wolfspraul> markup
2011-02-10 02:15 <wolfspraul> uploads are at best meant for really non-textual files like audio, video, pictures
2011-02-10 02:15 <wolfspraul> of course we are also uploading pdfs, and there is a nice viewer for them
2011-02-10 02:15 <kyak> what is the best way to keep track of changed config files according to your scheme?
2011-02-10 02:15 <wolfspraul> especially for pdfs that we get from outside, there really is no other option
2011-02-10 02:15 <wolfspraul> I just remember the edits I made manually.
2011-02-10 02:16 <wolfspraul> (remember = document)
2011-02-10 02:16 <wolfspraul> some people go as far as putting the entire /etc folder into a revision control system etc. (david mentioned something along those lines yesterday)
2011-02-10 02:17 <wolfspraul> I use this free-style notes only, the way you wrote it there is perfect.
2011-02-10 02:17 <kyak> ok, i didn't mention what was changed in configs, but it's not a big deal.. the configs are relatively tiny
2011-02-10 02:18 <kyak> the *.so build process is "documented" in bash_history, so won't be too hard to extract it, too :)
2011-02-10 02:18 <tuxbrain> wiki is randomly failing, can you check on your part?
2011-02-10 02:18 <wolfspra1l> don't worry what you have looks great. we can improve this later.
2011-02-10 02:19 <wolfspra1l> bash_history documentation sounds a bit, well, exotic ;-)
2011-02-10 02:20 <wolfspra1l> tuxbrain: just added a url, worked
2011-02-10 02:20 <wolfspra1l> in which way does it fail for you?
2011-02-10 02:20 <kyak> not so bad, put it in revision control, make infinite history size (or rotate it), and all your changes are documented, too :)
2011-02-10 02:20 <kyak> of course, you need to edit configs with sed/awk :)
2011-02-10 02:23 <wolfspraul> svn for config is over-engineered imho, I want to document system-level decisions too, rescue plans, lvm setup, snapshot scripts, etc.
2011-02-10 02:23 <wolfspraul> so I just use a free-flow text file, basically 'notes'
2011-02-10 02:24 <wolfspraul> but there are many good systems, if someone else uses svn for config, fine, I would go along
2011-02-10 02:24 <wolfspraul> I could put my extra stuff in /etc/dont_forget.conf
2011-02-10 02:24 <wolfspraul> :-)
2011-02-10 02:31 <wolfspraul> wow, on the Nokia front I just read that Nokia spends 4 times as much on R&D than Apple
2011-02-10 02:31 <wolfspraul> it certainly doesn't look like that... :-)
2011-02-10 02:32 <kyak> Nokia has 10 times more devices than Apple.. so it could be
2011-02-10 02:32 <wolfspraul> they must be 10 times less effective
2011-02-10 02:32 <wolfspraul> oh I'm sure the money is spent
2011-02-10 02:32 <wolfspraul> that's always the easy part. getting results, and focusing them on one spot, is a bit harder.
2011-02-10 02:33 <tuxbrain> ok me also but navigator has  has return some server too much long to respond errors
2011-02-10 02:33 <wolfspraul> is it working for you now or you still have issues?
2011-02-10 02:33 <tuxbrain> apple mkt department is what is awesome, not his R+D
2011-02-10 02:33 <tuxbrain> now is working
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> I am aware of intermettent problems, very hard to track down.
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> my only hope would be a complete from-scratch installation, for example on Debian Squeeze
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> or a controlled upgrade to a clean Squeez
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> but that's a lot of work, so for now we can just 'hang in' with the wiki...
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: if you have more trouble, please holler
2011-02-10 02:34 <wolfspraul> I'm editing all the time too, and I think the problems are rare.
2011-02-10 03:38 <kyak> xiangfu: hi! good to see you back :)
2011-02-10 03:38 <xiangfu> kyak: Hi
2011-02-10 03:40 <xiangfu> kyak: finally, I back to Beijing. :)
2011-02-10 03:40 <kyak> did you have a good rest?
2011-02-10 03:44 <wolfspraul> xiangfu: ah hi!
2011-02-10 03:44 <wolfspraul> xiangfu: you were so dearly missed that kyak even installed a seen extension to qi-bot so we can monitor when you come back :-)
2011-02-10 03:45 <xiangfu> haha :-)
2011-02-10 03:47 <xiangfu> kyak: much better now. arrive Beijing today morning.
2011-02-10 03:49 <kyak> xiangfu: can i start buggin you already? :) we need your git super powers to merge latest backfire into our branch. There was some important backport of cmake.mk
2011-02-10 03:50 <kyak> xiangfu: could you perhaps create a short how-to do it?
2011-02-10 03:52 <wolfspraul> xiangfu: ah yes, and David reported a gettext compile error. I wanted to run a config.full_system build myself to reproduce it, but now that you are there maybe you will get to it before me...
2011-02-10 03:52 <wolfspraul> if you took an overnight train, maybe you need to rest a little first :-)
2011-02-10 03:53 <kyak> gettext compile error?
2011-02-10 03:53 <wolfspraul> how many hours was your train ride?
2011-02-10 03:53 <wolfspraul> yes, it was on the list
2011-02-10 03:54 <wolfspraul> http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-February/007183.html
2011-02-10 03:54 <kyak> ok, it is fixed already
2011-02-10 03:54 <kyak> David must update his feeds
2011-02-10 03:55 <kyak> here is the fix https://dev.openwrt.org/changeset/25389
2011-02-10 03:55 <kyak> here is the  bug https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8413
2011-02-10 03:55 <wolfspraul> can you reply? just run scripts/feeds update -a && scripts/feeds install -a ?
2011-02-10 03:56 <kyak> run make package/symlinks
2011-02-10 03:56 <wolfspraul> I can reply.
2011-02-10 03:56 <wolfspraul> first scripts/feeds update / install ?
2011-02-10 03:56 <wolfspraul> or only make package/symlinks ?
2011-02-10 03:56 <kyak> only make package/symlinks
2011-02-10 03:57 <xMff> odd, the gettext error happens inside #  if __GLIBC__ >= 2 && !defined __UCLIBC__
2011-02-10 03:57 <kyak> oh, he might be using feeds.conf from data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf
2011-02-10 03:57 <xMff> should not even be seen by the compiler if uclibc is in use
2011-02-10 03:58 <kyak> the feeds revision is fixed there.. i don't know whether there was such bug in that revision
2011-02-10 03:58 <kyak> xMff: yes, made us wonder, too
2011-02-10 03:59 <xMff> oh... heh
2011-02-10 03:59 <xMff> https://dev.openwrt.org/browser/packages/libs/gettext-full/patches/005-uclibc-0.9.30-compat.patch - that was the patch from the ticket
2011-02-10 03:59 <xMff> is not in yet or is it not effective?
2011-02-10 03:59 <kyak> is effective for me
2011-02-10 04:00 <kyak> i guess David might be on wrong feeds revision
2011-02-10 04:00 <xMff> so maybe the people with build issues just don't have it yet?
2011-02-10 04:00 <kyak> not the latest
2011-02-10 04:00 <xMff> I see
2011-02-10 04:01 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update feeds.conf revision for recently NLS update http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/40c0a98
2011-02-10 04:09 <wolfspraul> kyak: xiangfu ok I am lost somewhere there. so what does David need to do to fix his bug?
2011-02-10 04:10 <kyak> for now, use the feeds.conf which was just updated by xiangfu. Then update his feeds with make package/symlinks
2011-02-10 04:11 <xMff> ./scripts/feeds update  works too
2011-02-10 04:12 <xiangfu> this bug have report at :  https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8413.  Fixed with r25389.  I just reply his email
2011-02-10 04:12 <kyak> cool :)
2011-02-10 04:15 <xMff> the glib2 error is odd, did not encounter it here
2011-02-10 04:19 <xiangfu> xMff: the last 100 lines is here: http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild-02092011-0900/BUILD_LOG.02092011-1024.last100
2011-02-10 04:20 <xiangfu> you can find full build log at http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild-02092011-0900/
2011-02-10 04:20 <xMff> xiangfu: /home/xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/glib-2.26.1/config.log  would be interesting
2011-02-10 04:23 <xiangfu> xMff: http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/glib-2.26.1/config.log
2011-02-10 04:26 <xiangfu> kyak: hi, I add one little script file for nanonote : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/nanonote-files/script-files/usr/bin/mtd.nn
2011-02-10 04:27 <xiangfu> now u-boot support 5 different boot . [M] for boot from sd card. [F1/2/3/4] can boot different kernel with different kernel command line
2011-02-10 04:28 <xiangfu> and end user can easy modify the them by using this little 'mtd.nn' and 'fw_setenv'
2011-02-10 04:51 <Jay7> morning :)
2011-02-10 04:51 <Jay7> wolfspraul: you may think that photos are in public domain
2011-02-10 04:53 <Jay7> tuxbrain: both cases was made in two days
2011-02-10 04:53 <Jay7> even in two evenings
2011-02-10 05:01 <wpwrak> sometimes, it really helps to just throw away your tree and rebuild from scratch ...
2011-02-10 05:01 <xMff> solved heisenbugs?
2011-02-10 05:02 <wpwrak> xMff: mysterious USB problem just evaporated
2011-02-10 05:02 <xMff> heh
2011-02-10 05:06 <kyak> xiangfu: that's great! is it loading the same kernel, but with different options?
2011-02-10 05:07 <kyak> xiangfu: it seems that mtd.nn still has 1730MiB data, is it correct?
2011-02-10 05:08 <xiangfu> kyak: 1730 not correct. also the help message. fixing now.
2011-02-10 05:08 <kyak> wpwrak: actually, your problems evaporated the moment you thrown away your tree. Rebuild is optional :)
2011-02-10 05:08 <wpwrak> kyak: ;-))
2011-02-10 05:08 <xiangfu> kyak: it's can load different kernel by edit 'bootcmdf1/2/3/4' http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/nanonote-files/script-files/usr/bin/mtd.nn#L68
2011-02-10 05:09 <xiangfu> kyak: the L59 is default kernel from nand. L68 will load the kernel form sd card.
2011-02-10 05:09 <kyak> xiangfu: ah, it's very useful!
2011-02-10 05:11 <kyak> so currently it is set to boot from varios sd partitions
2011-02-10 05:11 <xiangfu> kyak: since the kernel < 2M(the kernel partitions is 4M). we reflash two kernel to ben nanonote nand.  offset 4M and offset 6M
2011-02-10 05:11 <xiangfu> kyak: yes.
2011-02-10 05:12 <kyak> oh, we should write the second kernel exactly at 6M offset, then
2011-02-10 05:14 <kyak> xiangfu: btw, i'm also not seeing the glib2 bug...
2011-02-10 05:15 <kyak> i'll try to re-build it now
2011-02-10 05:17 <xiangfu> kyak: ok. maybe it's the host system problem. I am start a new build in buildhost.
2011-02-10 05:17 <kyak> however, i do have this error with pango: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8813
2011-02-10 05:19 <xMff> kyak: was the autoreconf successful?
2011-02-10 05:19 <xMff> kyak: during pango compilation
2011-02-10 05:20 <kyak> xMff: give me a sec, i'll finish glib2 build
2011-02-10 05:20 <dvdk> xiangfu: wrt plplot build problem: can you add VERBOSE=1 to Host/Compile make command line and post build logs?
2011-02-10 05:21 <kyak> ok, glib2 builds fine...
2011-02-10 05:25 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: nanonote script file mtd.nn update help message and data partition size http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c631197
2011-02-10 05:26 <xiangfu> dvdk: sure.
2011-02-10 05:26 <kyak> xMff: http://pastebin.mandriva.com/21907
2011-02-10 05:27 <kyak> this is the complete pango log
2011-02-10 05:27 <xMff> ah right backfire...
2011-02-10 05:27 <wolfspraul> Jay7: public domain, perfect
2011-02-10 05:27 <wolfspraul> thanks a lot
2011-02-10 05:28 <xMff> try changing PKG_FIXUP:=libtool to PKG_FIXUP:=autoreconf
2011-02-10 05:28 <Jay7> wolfspraul: :)
2011-02-10 05:28 <xMff> I'll soon backport the whole autofoo workarounds from trunk
2011-02-10 05:30 <wpwrak> xMff: how about a little expert system, let's call it "luddite", that liberates projects from autofoo, leaving a nice and clean makefile ? ;-)
2011-02-10 05:31 <kyak> xMff: hmm, now it fails from the very beginneing
2011-02-10 05:31 <xMff> autofail ftw
2011-02-10 05:31 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-02-10 05:32 <kyak> well ok, we'll just wait for that magica backport and take it together with cmake.mk :)
2011-02-10 05:44 <mirko> away
2011-02-10 05:45 <mirko> tuxbrain: a little video demonstrating switching units is planned :)
2011-02-10 05:45 <mirko> however i'd like to finish one feature first (state sharing)
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: support device -> host side of the ATUSB EP0 protocol http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ec21e4b
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: updated board parameters for latest run http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/dadc683
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/ep0.c: make commands needed for sending work http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6969e7d
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/: move board-specific items to board-specific file http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/4f0af39
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/: assigned hardware revision code point; some cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/dcfa689
2011-02-10 05:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: added proper support for interrupt polling http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3e9f961
2011-02-10 07:25 <rjeffries> Good morning tuxbrain
2011-02-10 07:28 <tuxbrain> hi all , ok mirko , good morning rjeffries :)
2011-02-10 07:30 <rjeffries> joke mode ON tuxbrain, will you sell me a quantity of UBB when it is ready I can be yur USA sub-distributor
2011-02-10 07:32 <tuxbrain> ok :) once I got prices I will ask you how many do you want, I think due it size we can use the regular mail with some "warranties" to avoid lossess and so (spain national mail is a nighmare) to not increase much the price due shipping.
2011-02-10 07:35 <roh> mmmmmmh
2011-02-10 07:36 <tuxbrain> roh?
2011-02-10 07:36 <roh> i think we should oem something like this http://pulster.de/index.htm?d__is01__Sharp_IS011340.htm  and remove the not international working stuff
2011-02-10 07:36 <roh> means tv and cdma
2011-02-10 07:37 <roh> tv is idsb if its japan, such it wouldn work anywhere besides there.
2011-02-10 07:38 <roh> i knew the netwalker and its about 450E, which iss too expensive. that one could sell for 200 given real volume
2011-02-10 07:47 <rjeffries> I like Netwalker but the price is high
2011-02-10 07:48 <roh> sure. my thought was that the is01 solves that
2011-02-10 07:48 <rjeffries> what is is01 please
2011-02-10 07:49 <rjeffries> I had a discouraging discuzzion with a group of 20 hackers last night about Ben Nanonote
2011-02-10 07:53 <wolfspraul> roh: how do we get the m1 cases to Taiwan?
2011-02-10 07:53 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (ubb) giving up on looking for a pcb maker in the US already ?
2011-02-10 07:55 <tuxbrain> rjeffries: discouraging?
2011-02-10 07:56 <rjeffries> wpwrak: have not had time yet. very busy period. will get first email off now
2011-02-10 07:57 <rjeffries> tuxbrain: I will write a short report to the qi-hardware list. briefly, they think it is better to buy say a used android phone and root it
2011-02-10 07:57 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (ubb) so you're still trying. good. will be useful for also have quotes from different places.
2011-02-10 07:58 <tuxbrain> bah, antivendor scheme is a no go business...
2011-02-10 07:59 <rjeffries> wpwrak I am convinced UBB will be important. no problemo. but smart people are not convinced of value of Ben
2011-02-10 07:59 <wolfspraul> there is no way you can convince them otherwise I think, the only thing that works is lead by example.
2011-02-10 08:00 <wolfspraul> I hope they actually do some reverse engineering though, and not just more armchair generals.
2011-02-10 08:00 <rjeffries> they really dislike lack of WiFi, and are not members of the Wolfgang Church of Copyleft
2011-02-10 08:00 <wolfspraul> I've done a lot. I believed in this approach, wait, maybe 8 years ago? (for phones)
2011-02-10 08:00 <rjeffries> well two people may order. I can;t do grouo buy, but the price difference to them is only an extar $20
2011-02-10 08:01 <wolfspraul> they've probably also never got a complete wifi solution to actually work well (you could ask them).
2011-02-10 08:01 <wolfspraul> it's hard to discuss when there is a big experience gap. I'm not sure what they did or plan to do, maybe they have some ideas we overlooked :-)
2011-02-10 08:01 <wolfspraul> but of course, it sounds very familiar. just need to keep in mind that in my experience, 95% of people just talk, at most 5% act
2011-02-10 08:02 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (root android) that's called the antivendor approach. it's been tried and failed miserably. it looks attractive but is only applicable in very very small niches.
2011-02-10 08:02 <rjeffries> these guys at a Hackerspace are quite practical they use Arduino to control robots that sort of thing. they are not bad guys at all
2011-02-10 08:02 <wolfspraul> nobody said that. we talk about phones in particular.
2011-02-10 08:03 <rjeffries> wpwrak I am not representing thier viewpoint. I am only reporting. They did listen (it was irc) but were not moved
2011-02-10 08:03 <wolfspraul> sure. it's good you tried.
2011-02-10 08:04 <wolfspraul> most people simply gave up on phones, that's what I hear
2011-02-10 08:04 <rjeffries> data on how potential customers view a product is neither good or bad it just  is data
2011-02-10 08:04 <rjeffries> these guys are not into phones
2011-02-10 08:05 <wolfspraul> is also a far stretch to imagine if you look at the Ben :-)
2011-02-10 08:05 <rjeffries> more on the robot front. amd other little hardwar eprojects such as a LED cube that makes pretty colors
2011-02-10 08:05 <wolfspraul> I will try to get some voip software to it, it has speaker and microphone, maybe something can work.
2011-02-10 08:06 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: anti-vendor also has its issues outside of phones. maybe slightly less, because you have a little less closed junk and a bit longer lifecycles, but still
2011-02-10 08:06 <rjeffries> wolfgang when the wpwrak radio for Ben and matching radio for PC is ready that may really help
2011-02-10 08:06 <roh> wolfspraul: not sure yet. was in bed the last days
2011-02-10 08:07 <rjeffries> my idea is Ben as dedicated controller in home automation network will be interesting
2011-02-10 08:07 <roh> rjeffries: do you read whats written here or only write?
2011-02-10 08:07 <roh> *sigh*
2011-02-10 08:08 <kyak> write :)
2011-02-10 08:08 <rjeffries> OFFTOPIC but really interesting technology: http://gigaom.com/2011/02/09/pelican-imaging/
2011-02-10 08:09 <rjeffries> roh what do you mean by that sir>
2011-02-10 08:10 <wpwrak> kyak: we should also get the commits/words ratio :-)
2011-02-10 08:11 <rjeffries> wpwrak guys I can go away. thanks for such a friendly atmosphere. I never presented mself as aLinux software guru
2011-02-10 08:11 <steve|m> words/commits: Division by zero!
2011-02-10 08:11 <steve|m> ;)
2011-02-10 08:11 <roh> rjeffries: scroll up.
2011-02-10 08:11 <wolfspraul> roh: ok. do you feel better now?
2011-02-10 08:11 <roh> rjeffries: your question suggest that you do not read what i wrote.
2011-02-10 08:11 <wpwrak> steve|m: that's why you have to pick your operands carefully ;-)
2011-02-10 08:12 <roh> wolfspraul: a bit. on the way... still in bed tho
2011-02-10 08:12 <wolfspraul> roh: my current favorite is 2 * 2kg airmail letter. print the chinese address on a label and attach outside as well.
2011-02-10 08:13 <wolfspraul> my worry would be how long it takes to ship, but I'm not really in a rush (want to get it off the table though). and theoretically if it's lost, not sure for letters there is any sort of insurance.
2011-02-10 08:13 <wolfspraul> well, it should arrive
2011-02-10 08:13 <wolfspraul> maybe we just do that?
2011-02-10 08:13 <wolfspraul> I hope you get a receipt that can proove it was exported.
2011-02-10 08:14 <wolfspraul> roh: let me know when you are fully recovered then we seal the (shipping) deal.
2011-02-10 08:14 <roh> wolfspraul: sure
2011-02-10 08:14 <wolfspraul> I want to get those 10 to Taiwan first, play with them a little, then order the next 80 (or 75) at some point.
2011-02-10 08:15 <wpwrak> using a transceiver without any RF components at all is fun. it works. just about 30 dB weaker than with them :-)
2011-02-10 08:15 <wolfspraul> you mean without antenna?
2011-02-10 08:15 <roh> wolfspraul: to be fair: i still think its uneconomic to send such amounts of stuff around the planet twice
2011-02-10 08:15 <wpwrak> without antenna, balun, dc blocking caps
2011-02-10 08:16 <roh> somehow even unecologic *sigh*
2011-02-10 08:16 <wpwrak> roh: you're so sure the shipments will get lost ?
2011-02-10 08:17 <roh> no. not that. its just expensive and if its sent back to europe in the end its kinda superflous
2011-02-10 08:17 <rjeffries> steve|m give me a break, nit everyone in this community does the same thing. some people crochet cases. some write driver. others create acrylic cases for Milkymist. some are serious DIY onlookers who want to fand a way to use Ben in clever ways.\
2011-02-10 08:18 <wpwrak> roh: ah, you mean sent back with an mm1 inside ? well, for europe, local distributors may be more attractive anyway
2011-02-10 08:19 <roh> rjeffries: about your 'talks with hackers'
2011-02-10 08:19 <rjeffries> roh message me to tell me what I should have read. I read it all. I also later read the damn logs
2011-02-10 08:19 <rjeffries> what about it roh? don't be shy I can take it
2011-02-10 08:19 <roh> rjeffries: i have one old prototype and some oem device with different sw but basically the same mainboard around. no 'final' nanonote.
2011-02-10 08:19 <roh> still i wouldnt know a single friend or hacker around here who i could sell one of these.
2011-02-10 08:20 <rjeffries> ok roh that is fine
2011-02-10 08:20 <roh> why? well.. no usecase.
2011-02-10 08:20 <roh> rjeffries: http://pulster.de/index.htm?d__is01__Sharp_IS011340.htm
2011-02-10 08:20 <roh> dunno the sharp url.
2011-02-10 08:20 <rjeffries> ok. cool. so maybe we have similar data. thank you, I agree the use case if one is not strong copylet person is weak
2011-02-10 08:21 <roh> propably in for-me-unparsable-ja-chars anyhow
2011-02-10 08:21 <wolfspraul> roh: I agree but I cannot optimize that aspect now. I need to get the whole package together, and fast, and sell it.
2011-02-10 08:21 <wolfspraul> then we can optimize optimize optimize. and that is definitely one part of it, for sure.
2011-02-10 08:21 <roh> rjeffries: well.. what usecase? you can use it for what its sold in asia.. as lexicon, as translator (install dict? etc)
2011-02-10 08:21 <roh> but without connectivity.. nada.
2011-02-10 08:22 <roh> wolfspraul: sure
2011-02-10 08:22 <roh> rjeffries: i got suggestions to use it as kind of a crypto-vault (which is basically the only usecase which i know which needs to NOT have connnectivity.
2011-02-10 08:22 <roh> but thats senseless without hw support like a real rng etc.
2011-02-10 08:23 <rjeffries> roh yes I looked at that Pulster is01 page earlier. I loke that device. I do not like the price so yes, if somone could shenzen it, that would be awesome
2011-02-10 08:23 <wpwrak> roh: with UBB you can use to talk to your electronics :) i must say i quite enjoy using it in this role - much more convenient than gta02+debug board or, even worse, concocting something that attaches to a pc
2011-02-10 08:23 <roh> rjeffries: 250E isnt that bad.
2011-02-10 08:23 <roh> wpwrak: ubb still doesnt solve the issue. it mediates it. not solve.
2011-02-10 08:23 <rjeffries> I think woldspraul is an existence proof that shenzen process does not translate into fabulous sales
2011-02-10 08:24 <roh> wpwrak: i think we should step up. we are much too slow right now.
2011-02-10 08:24 <wpwrak> roh: UBB helps you talk to your electronics
2011-02-10 08:24 <roh> wpwrak: ubb is your new name for 'the 802.15.4 wireless modem'?
2011-02-10 08:24 <wpwrak> roh: (step up) oh, agrees. but this needs more resources. any suggestions  ? :)
2011-02-10 08:24 <wpwrak> roh: (UBB) you've really been out for a long time ;)
2011-02-10 08:25 <wpwrak> roh: UBB is your "tldr" :)
2011-02-10 08:25 <roh> 2 things: you guys rename shit too often. and second these 'abbreviations' do only generate confusion
2011-02-10 08:25 <roh> i mean.. if I cannot follow you guys.. that should be a bright blinking red indicator.
2011-02-10 08:26 <wpwrak> roh: UBB started as UBB and was never renamed :)
2011-02-10 08:27 <roh> hm. there isnt even a wikipage about it
2011-02-10 08:27 <roh> aaah.. now i get it. the breakout thingie?
2011-02-10 08:27 <roh> nah. that solves nothing for non-devels.
2011-02-10 08:28 <rjeffries> yup
2011-02-10 08:28 <roh> nice to play for guys like me. but we solder smt directly to the nn if needed.
2011-02-10 08:28 <wpwrak> roh: (crypto-vault) i don't think you need a high-rate source of randomness. the existing low-rate sources should be plenty.
2011-02-10 08:29 <roh> wpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world-sales angle.
2011-02-10 08:29 <roh> wpwrak: for proper crypto we need proper random. currently we got NONE.
2011-02-10 08:29 <roh> and kids bs like noisy resistors isnt good enough by far.
2011-02-10 08:30 <roh> btw. that crypto vault idea was suggested by someone living from crypto products he produces.
2011-02-10 08:30 <wpwrak> roh: UBB could be attractive for basically the same demographic group that today does arduino. that's already a few. certainly no world domination yet, but a start.
2011-02-10 08:30 <wpwrak> roh: win one segment at a time :)
2011-02-10 08:30 <roh> wpwrak: sure. but why use a board which needs a device which costs 100E?
2011-02-10 08:31 <roh> arduinos cost 2-digit euros. some even one-digit.
2011-02-10 08:31 <wpwrak> roh: for development. maybe you make it autonomous later. whatever.
2011-02-10 08:31 <roh> the cpu costs 2.30E
2011-02-10 08:31 <roh> (atmega168 or so)
2011-02-10 08:31 <roh> we use it a lot.
2011-02-10 08:32 <roh> but usually via isp and not with an arduino bootloader. and basically never with arduino pcb
2011-02-10 08:32 <wpwrak> roh: (crypto vault) it's kind of an obvious idea :) i had the same idea when wolfgang visited last year. still haven't made the bestie yet, though
2011-02-10 08:33 <roh> the difference between arduino and avr for me is 'reproduceability for people less experienced as me'
2011-02-10 08:33 <roh> thus i use the .pde style files and their libs quite often.
2011-02-10 08:33 <wpwrak> roh: (crypto vault) i'd be much less worried about the RNG than about device integrity. attacks against the crypto or the RNG are very rare and basically only happen if you have ancient stuff or int random(void) { return 4; /* random dice throw */ }
2011-02-10 08:34 <wpwrak> roh: (avr) what's .pde ?
2011-02-10 08:35 <roh> wpwrak: the arduino 'sources'
2011-02-10 08:35 <steve|m> 'sketch'
2011-02-10 08:35 <rjeffries> compared with Ben, Arduinio community is huge
2011-02-10 08:35 <roh> it gets preprocessed by adding a header and then compiled by avr-gcc. nothing weird.
2011-02-10 08:36 <wpwrak> roh: ah, poor man's IDE :)
2011-02-10 08:36 <roh> in the end Arduinio is the way teaching people C without the need to let them know up infront
2011-02-10 08:36 <roh> i dont use their ide. i have a makefile.
2011-02-10 08:37 <roh> wpwrak: https://m21.hyte.de/wiki/EmcArduino
2011-02-10 08:37 <roh> the top most link has the .pde linked
2011-02-10 08:38 <rjeffries> smiles: 05:27 <roh> wpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world sales angle //WAIT that is MY job description. we should start  aUnion
2011-02-10 08:38 <dvdk> who complained about missing RNG in nanonote?  just sample the microphone input :)
2011-02-10 08:38 <roh> dvdk: you need to go back to school about whats random really is;)
2011-02-10 08:39 <roh> and true. rng is only ONE of the issues
2011-02-10 08:39 <dvdk> roh: who needs to go back to school here? :)  entropy is entropy even if not in the shape of a gauss distribution.
2011-02-10 08:39 <roh> it would also need tamper protection etc.
2011-02-10 08:39 <xiangfu> dvdk: here is the plplot compile log: http://buildhost.openmobilefree.net/~xiangfu/plplot.compile.log.bz2  (after update openwrt-xburst.git and qipackages)
2011-02-10 08:39 <roh> dvdk: mic input isnt random at all.
2011-02-10 08:40 <dvdk> hi xiangfu, thanks; maybe won't be able to do anything about that until saturday
2011-02-10 08:40 <wpwrak> roh: (pde) hmm yes, a bit clumsy but definitely C
2011-02-10 08:40 <xiangfu> dvdk: sure.
2011-02-10 08:42 <wpwrak> roh: (tamper protection for the RNG) probably overkill. that would only matter if the device is being tampered with when you generate your keys.
2011-02-10 08:42 <dvdk> roh: but part of if is. (i.e. thermical noise of amplifier, whatever).  i.e. there is _some_ entropy in it.  more than you could otherwise (easily) gather in the nn.
2011-02-10 08:42 <wpwrak> roh: (tamper protection) i would just install a keylogger ;-)
2011-02-10 08:43 <roh> wpwrak: not for the rng. for the full device.
2011-02-10 08:43 <wpwrak> roh: (full device) ah, here we agree :)
2011-02-10 08:43 <roh> wpwrak: like in well built otp-generators or cash terminals.
2011-02-10 08:44 <wpwrak> roh: yeah. fill it with phosphor and seal it airtight. that should teach the tamperers :)
2011-02-10 08:44 <rjeffries> I would use a password vault. but wpwrak is right, the main PC must be secure. it is a Hard Problem
2011-02-10 08:45 <wpwrak> roh: another tricky problem is replacement
2011-02-10 08:45 <wpwrak> roh: in the end, it all depend how valuable a target you are
2011-02-10 08:45 <roh> dvdk: its still no proper random that can or should be used for crypto. it could be ONE of several sources. but its by far too bad.
2011-02-10 08:47 <roh> to be used alone atleast.
2011-02-10 08:47 <wpwrak> roh: (random) do you know how /dev/random works ? with the randomness pool, different sources, and rate control ?
2011-02-10 08:49 <dvdk> roh: i'm lacking the crypto background; just judging from signal processing (wireless comm.) stuff I did.  there we had the reverse problem, though.
2011-02-10 08:50 <wpwrak> dvdk: hah, when we add wireless, we let the crypt-vault just suck all the randomness bits out of the signal. both win ;-))
2011-02-10 08:51 <dvdk> also I'd say, putting microphone samples in a long, long "shift register", the output should tend to gaussian distribution (when shift reg long enough).  as there's no long-time correlation in the input samples (long-long-time correlation cannot even be 'injected' by an attacker due to clock drift, jitter etc.)
2011-02-10 08:51 <dvdk> i mean shift-register with taps and xor/adding for output, btw
2011-02-10 08:51 <rjeffries> marketing ideaL rename the radio as H2O RANDOMNESS SUCKER
2011-02-10 08:52 <wpwrak> dvdk: naw, you make a pool. xor any new bit(s) with the pool, then run the pool through a hash to "mix" the new bits with the rest.
2011-02-10 08:52 <dvdk> whatever we do, bit-rate of entropy bits won't be much larger than 2*sample_rate
2011-02-10 08:53 <wpwrak> dvdk: LSRs are a bit scary for crypto applications. i would use something stronger. md5 or such.
2011-02-10 08:53 <wpwrak> dvdk: probably much less
2011-02-10 08:53 <roh> wpwrak: i do. i wouldnt use it for a cryptovault.
2011-02-10 08:53 <roh> wpwrak: http://warmcat.com/_wp/2009/05/21/whirlygig-pcb/
2011-02-10 08:54 <roh> dvdk: dont reinvent the wheel badly. please. read up about random.
2011-02-10 08:54 <dvdk> wpwrak: was just a "thought experiment".  you won't be able to statistically analyze microphone-input + md5 :)
2011-02-10 08:55 <roh> also please differenciate between rng and prng
2011-02-10 08:56 <roh> afaik the best method is 'lava lamps'
2011-02-10 08:57 <wpwrak> roh: that's a very high-rate random number source. well, perhaps we're talking about different usage scenarios. what i have in mind is a password safe. there you need just a few kbits every now and then
2011-02-10 08:57 <dvdk> you guys are probably right. and more educated than me.
2011-02-10 08:58 <wpwrak> roh: you can of course over-engineer the rng at your heart's content, but that's like gold-plated cables for audiophiles :)
2011-02-10 08:59 <dvdk> roh: wpwrak: this sums it up, won't it: http://xkcd.com/538/
2011-02-10 08:59 <dvdk> :)
2011-02-10 09:00 <roh> dvdk: only for the fun aspect. i know people who only survived certain situation due to proper crypto.
2011-02-10 09:01 <wpwrak> dvdk: yeah, that's their BATNA :)
2011-02-10 09:03 <wpwrak> roh: their opponents can't have been very serious. when i rule the world, i'll not only have those executed who know something they shouldn't, but also those i suspect of knowing something :)
2011-02-10 09:03 <roh> wpwrak: wrong side. you cant be forced to give up passwords in .de
2011-02-10 09:04 <roh> one of the reasons i dont ever visit us or uk.
2011-02-10 09:04 <dvdk> roh: you mean, cannot be forced /by the government/
2011-02-10 09:04 <roh> dvdk: ack.
2011-02-10 09:05 <wpwrak> roh: i'm sure this little oversight will be corrected in one way or another when it matters
2011-02-10 09:05 <rjeffries> wpwrak You have mail.
2011-02-10 09:06 <roh> wpwrak: nope. i dont see that. we will have other issues first.
2011-02-10 09:06 <wpwrak> whoa. soon, i'll need a rjeffries folder :)
2011-02-10 09:06 <rjeffries> wpwraK yes, you will. it is all good
2011-02-10 09:07 <roh> wpwrak: in the end its not politician who decide. its business. and business around here has no interrest in giving up their secret passwords. think deutsche bank and such;)
2011-02-10 09:07 <roh> especially not to law enforcement
2011-02-10 09:07 <roh> *vbg*
2011-02-10 09:09 <wpwrak> roh: business will of course be exempted. at least in real life :)
2011-02-10 09:10 <wpwrak> rjeffries: he didn't really understand what you want. you should have sent him at least a link to the gerbers
2011-02-10 09:11 <rjeffries> well I can tell him I have the gerbers
2011-02-10 09:11 <wpwrak> rjeffries: send him the link. don't make him ask for every bit of information individually :)
2011-02-10 09:11 <rjeffries> is there now one or two links that describe the project? pls remind me
2011-02-10 09:12 <rjeffries> my friend is a busy guy I only asked him for high level info. I may send the package to that consultant guy however
2011-02-10 09:12 <wpwrak> rjeffries: maybe just forward him the production section of the mail. plus a link to a picture of the board.
2011-02-10 09:14 <wpwrak> rjeffries: for panelization, the best would be if the fab can do it. for this, they need to understand that the pcb itself is the final product. i.e., you don't care in which form and arrangement you receive the pcbs. in particular, you don't won't feed them to any machine (smt or such)
2011-02-10 09:14 <rjeffries> the guy who answered me has other things to do. he pointed me to resources. I can send them a package, once I find the right bits
2011-02-10 09:14 <wpwrak> rjeffries: if the fab doesn't want to do it, then you need their specs for doing it
2011-02-10 09:14 <rjeffries> ok, rw panelization I get it
2011-02-10 09:14 <rjeffries> ok fine
2011-02-10 09:15 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (resources) ok. try them then. maybe also ping your "consultant" for possibly cheaper places.
2011-02-10 09:15 <rjeffries> consultant can send it to China and the extra time is a don't care
2011-02-10 09:16 <wpwrak> rjeffries: the main constraints are board thickness and the accuracy of the cut. the cheapest "hobbyist" places can't even do 0.8 mm. (and they won't be able to cut the board either)
2011-02-10 09:16 <wpwrak> rjeffries: china is always an option, yes. there, they also have modern machines :)
2011-02-10 09:16 <rjeffries> I have already figured that out
2011-02-10 09:17 <rjeffries> so I get maybe 250 emails a day. do I look in qi-hardware mail list archive to find the correct emails?
2011-02-10 09:17 <wpwrak> if you search long enough, you'll find old-fashioned places that only do things > 10 mil and with 100 mil copper-to-board-edge separation ;-)
2011-02-10 09:18 <rjeffries> wpwrak you know a LT about pcb fab
2011-02-10 09:18 <wpwrak> only 250 ? lucky man. yes, the "the Universal Breakout Board (UBB)" thread
2011-02-10 09:19 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (know a lot) only some basics. i've never had one manufactured myself. the simple ones, i rather do myself. the complex ones quickly get too expensive for this poor hobbyist.
2011-02-10 09:28 <rjeffries_> wpwrak pls look at this page. are top two items what I should use?
2011-02-10 09:28 <rjeffries_> http://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=discussion%40lists.en.qi-hardware.com&q=UBB
2011-02-10 09:30 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: yes. of the long one, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/ubb.jpg
2011-02-10 09:30 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: and the section "Industrially producing UBB"
2011-02-10 09:31 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: (unless your friend likes to read a lot :)
2011-02-10 09:31 <rjeffries_> now I have too edit? /// laughs out loud /// you assume a high IQ that may or may not be true
2011-02-10 09:32 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: well, let your secretary do it :)
2011-02-10 09:33 <rjeffries_> oh, now I need ti hire a secretary. Great idea. I'll get on it. ;)
2011-02-10 09:34 <rjeffries_> I am creating an email now
2011-02-10 09:35 <roh> anybody tried the web-calculators of the prominent pcb manufs?
2011-02-10 09:37 <roh> ah. pcb-pool doesnt have 0.8 in the online-thingie. custom quote has it.
2011-02-10 09:37 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: maybe I will have access to a smt machine soon, also this guy works on recover things with plastic instead of pack them in a box (whatever techname it has) , what about if instead of build a box for atben/atusb, recover them with resin?
2011-02-10 09:37 <tuxbrain> I have to talk directly to him to have more info
2011-02-10 09:38 <rjeffries_> roh I tried one of online web tools was a pain in the ass everything needed to be in inches
2011-02-10 09:44 <roh> heh. imperial crap. used by the us and ... birma.
2011-02-10 09:51 <wpwrak> roh: i ran one on 4pcb. per-board cost about USD 1 for ~1-2 kunits
2011-02-10 09:52 <wpwrak> roh: it's a bit hard to calculate this, because they have a minimum size of 1 in x 1 in
2011-02-10 09:53 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: (resin) hmm, that's not very open, isn't it ?
2011-02-10 09:53 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: if all else fails, we could just dunk them in silicone. that can be removed cleanly, if necessary
2011-02-10 09:54 <tuxbrain> no a resined electronic will be dificult to hack indeed,
2011-02-10 09:54 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: i also found non-corrosive silicone :)
2011-02-10 09:55 <tuxbrain> but we can have some unresined ones for hack and covered ones.. is an option, whatever I must asses me better on this once I talk with the guy
2011-02-10 09:56 <roh> wpwrak: pcbpool seems to have no problem doing 100pcs of 10x30mm boards
2011-02-10 09:56 <roh> 1.0 and 1.6mm thick is about the same cost
2011-02-10 09:56 <roh> dunno about 0.8
2011-02-10 09:57 <roh> its about 1.0-1.2E/piece
2011-02-10 09:57 <tuxbrain> I say resin but I have not clear what material is , is used to give ip65 to things from electronics to passtrough holes for cables
2011-02-10 09:57 <tuxbrain> roh plus shipping?
2011-02-10 09:57 <tuxbrain> and customs?
2011-02-10 10:00 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: http://www.siloc.com.ar/siloc/serie_industrial.php?series_key=SILICONA_INDUSTRIAL_NEUTRA
2011-02-10 10:01 <roh> tuxbrain: dunno. both dead cheap withing europe.
2011-02-10 10:01 <roh> no customs. where on earth are you?
2011-02-10 10:01 <tuxbrain> sorry I was thinking it was in china, I'm from spain dude :)
2011-02-10 10:03 <rjeffries_> wpwrak I have draft email to PCB consultant in your mail box
2011-02-10 10:04 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: I know that kind of silicon :) I had worked in costruction in my youth, but this kind of cober will not protect the electronics to torsion or hits... is a very soft an elastic material.
2011-02-10 10:06 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: looks good. i would remove the two references at the end, though. they're from a different section
2011-02-10 10:07 <rjeffries_> I wondered about that
2011-02-10 10:07 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: torsion and hits ... leave your ben at home when you go to the fight club ! ;-)
2011-02-10 10:07 <tuxbrain> it will need quite thick amount to cover it to protect from hits and avoid be removed by friction... and my nasty mind imagin such thing with that amount of silicon and with this touch feel will look like a sexual toy
2011-02-10 10:11 <tuxbrain> and there was enough fun on this with OM and the vibrator aplication :P
2011-02-10 10:13 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: the 8:10 card slot should quite severely limit the amount of fun you could get out of this little toy ...
2011-02-10 10:13 <tuxbrain> rjeffries_: we can have some nude boards for hackers and so, but I don't thing ,if rentable, that cover the electronics to avoid accidental shortcuts and give it some protection is a bad idea
2011-02-10 10:13 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: maybe you should think of it like an us-american strip club. just look, but no touching :)
2011-02-10 10:14 <tuxbrain> is not the size is how you use it
2011-02-10 10:14 <rjeffries_> tuxbrain at the start I would leave it bare. send advice on how to solder ribbon cable and dip in silicon
2011-02-10 10:14 <tuxbrain> I know that this gonna happens when I mentioned "sexual" on a geek channel :P
2011-02-10 10:15 <rjeffries_> I am inclined to buy the flat ribbin cable and ship a short length so user doesn't need to find that vital item
2011-02-10 10:15 <tuxbrain> nonono not talking on UBB, I was talking on atben/atusb
2011-02-10 10:15 <tuxbrain> that has electronics and maybe used by not so DiY guys
2011-02-10 10:16 <tuxbrain> UBB is clearly a DIY audience
2011-02-10 10:16 <rjeffries_> tuxbarin agree
2011-02-10 10:16 <rjeffries_> tuxbrain I agree UBB is DIY and other experimenters
2011-02-10 10:17 <rjeffries_> marketing idea: JEFFRIES RESEARCH we sell NIDE Boards. X-rated. mailed in plian envelope
2011-02-10 10:17 <rjeffries_> s/nide/NUDE
2011-02-10 10:18 <rjeffries_> BEDROOM BEN NANONOTE makes your woman orgasm faster
2011-02-10 10:18 <tuxbrain> I cannot discard our artist in comunitye use UBB them for any else porpose
2011-02-10 10:19 <tuxbrain> but maybe not with you due you problable being hacking on BNN
2011-02-10 10:20 <tuxbrain> Ben NN the IT powder box is for me the best definiton now a days :)
2011-02-10 10:22 <rjeffries_> a friend sent me this linkL http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdcard/
2011-02-10 10:24 <rjeffries_> When is the Chinese New Year over, anybody know?
2011-02-10 10:29 <Mauro_R> rjeffries_: It is determined by the moon calendar. Between 30 and 59 days after of december 21st. Change every year.
2011-02-10 10:30 <rjeffries_> must be over now
2011-02-10 10:30 <rjeffries_> maybe google is my friend?
2011-02-10 10:32 <rjeffries_> http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/02/chinese_new_year_2011.html
2011-02-10 10:35 <Mauro_R> nice photos :-) I think that this new year it's between 2 and 17 of february ...
2011-02-10 10:36 <rjeffries_> phone model cycle is now 6 to9 months use3d to be 3 years
2011-02-10 10:36 <rjeffries_> Motorola Razor was top model for FIVE (5) years. FIVE YEARS
2011-02-10 10:39 <tuxbrain> time to be father for a while, see you later guys
2011-02-10 10:39 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: (sd card link) yeah. but what you need are the non-public dimensions ;-)
2011-02-10 10:45 <rjeffries_> ok no big deal to me I thinbk you already know what is needed
2011-02-10 10:46 <rjeffries_> I noticed that document said 1 mm thickness rather tha 0.8 mm ;)
2011-02-10 11:02 <wpwrak> yes, that's the overall thickness of the card. the contacts are a bit on the inside, though
2011-02-10 11:02 <wpwrak> but maybe you can fit an 1.0 mm board, too
2011-02-10 11:04 <wpwrak> (if you can find one in the US ;)
2011-02-10 11:06 <wpwrak> rjeffries_: if you want to make it perfect, you can try to glue some plastic sheet on the non-contact part of the permanently inserted zone. the transparency films used for laser printers are about 100 um so plus glue and all, it would be about right.
2011-02-10 11:12 <rjeffries_> wpwtak sorry to be dumb but the transparancy film would be to provide insulation I think?
2011-02-10 11:14 <wpwrak> that, but you don't really need isolation, because a) the traces there could only really touch metal parts with the same signal, and b) you already have a solder mask there.
2011-02-10 11:14 <wpwrak> but it would add thickness, so you get to the nominal 1.0 mm. and you could use it for decorative purposes :)
2011-02-10 11:19 <wpwrak> in any case, don't worry. you don't need it.
2011-02-10 11:28 <roh> rjeffries_: i still use a motorola razr v3i. the second now. (first one died of mechanical issues/got unreliable)
2011-02-10 11:44 <rjeffries> sTazoe/Razor that is a funny typo
2011-02-10 11:45 <rjeffries> the transparency film could carry contact info (where to buy)
2011-02-10 11:51 <kyak> suddenly realizes that dvdk is David Kuehling
2011-02-10 11:56 <wpwrak> rjeffries: fwiw, "qi-hw.com" is already printed on the silk screen (if you keep it)
2011-02-10 11:59 <rjeffries> that URL does not seem to work/
2011-02-10 12:00 <rjeffries> look if I make this investment of time and risk a few bucks, I will NOT take credit for the work og wprak
2011-02-10 12:00 <rjeffries> that is not what I am about
2011-02-10 12:00 <rjeffries> s/og/of
2011-02-10 12:01 <rjeffries> may add label that says" //joke mode ON: PROOF OF CONCEPT
2011-02-10 12:01 <rjeffries> too bad wolfsoraul is asleep (I assume)
2011-02-10 12:02 <rjeffries> that one is for wolfspraul as you know
2011-02-10 12:03 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (url) are you sure ? works fine for me. redirects to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page
2011-02-10 12:04 <rjeffries> cool it now works when I first tried it a few days a go no worky
2011-02-10 12:05 <rjeffries> that is a good url I  LOVE how short it is!!!!
2011-02-10 12:06 <rjeffries> I thought I'd have a photo of myself on that laser printed protective label. The Cornel Sanders of th eUBB Empire
2011-02-10 12:06 <rjeffries> Kentucky Fried Chicken is still big in USA and, I think, China
2011-02-10 12:17 <wpwrak> rjeffries: btw, to "sell" the ben to your hacker friends, you really ought to meet them in real life and show them the device. its compactness has a convincing effect of its own that just looking at pictures and specs doesn't.
2011-02-10 12:19 <dvdk> kyak: pssst, don't tell anyone :)  constantly trying to escape the google indexer.
2011-02-10 12:22 <kyak> dvdk: pssst, don't mention google, or it will index you :)
2011-02-10 12:23 <dvdk> is looking for a new nick :)
2011-02-10 12:24 <kyak> dvdk: anyway, good to meet you here :) it's much more convenient to drop a couple of lines in IRC rather than writing an e-mail
2011-02-10 12:24 <kyak> doesn't like mailing lists
2011-02-10 12:24 <dvdk> kyak: only if the recipient is watching the irc channel
2011-02-10 12:25 <dvdk> only likes irc as long as it isn't logged :)
2011-02-10 12:25 <kyak> how is logging in IRC different from mailing lists logging?
2011-02-10 12:25 <dvdk> might get fired for watching irc while at work :)
2011-02-10 12:26 <kyak> me too
2011-02-10 12:26 <kyak> :)
2011-02-10 12:26 <dvdk> kyak: good argument.
2011-02-10 12:26 <kyak> or even for commits during workday...hmmm
2011-02-10 12:27 <dvdk> is planning to create the timestamp obfuscating git client :)
2011-02-10 12:27 <kyak> is a very good idea!
2011-02-10 12:27 <dvdk> is also planning to make an irc logfile nick anonymizer :)
2011-02-10 12:28 <dvdk> is new no irc, btw.
2011-02-10 12:28 <kyak> what if the local date is changed just before the commit..?
2011-02-10 12:28 <kyak> will this time be recorded in commit?
2011-02-10 12:29 <dvdk> kyak: you're right that's the nice thing about distributed version control.  no central server -> no central clock.
2011-02-10 12:29 <dvdk> s/no/to/
2011-02-10 12:29 <kyak> hm cool! what if this time is "before" the last recorded commit in repo?
2011-02-10 12:30 <dvdk> or in the future?
2011-02-10 12:30 <kyak> yeah.. like, the future midnight
2011-02-10 12:38 <kyak> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367262/git-commit-setting-timestamps-into-the-future
2011-02-10 12:38 <kyak> so looks like it's the matter of env GIT_AUTHOR_DATE
2011-02-10 12:39 <kyak> might want to create a wrapper around git commit
2011-02-10 12:39 <dvdk> :)
2011-02-10 12:40 <dvdk> i guess that may trigger problems with Make for people trying to build after pull.  but then they'll just have to wait till midnight.
2011-02-10 12:42 <kyak> hmm, do you think this date is set for all the files in repo?
2011-02-10 12:42 <dvdk> might be set for modified files on checkout
2011-02-10 12:42 <dvdk> Make doesn't like future timestamps
2011-02-10 12:43 <kyak> what about setting it to the previous date?
2011-02-10 12:43 <dvdk> hmm, i guess git must set the timestamp of the checkout, not the timestamp of the commit, else make won't correctly rebuild anyways
2011-02-10 12:44 <dvdk> so future dates won't be a prlobme
2011-02-10 12:45 <kyak> yeah, sounds reasonable
2011-02-10 12:45 <kyak> do you have a commit to test? :)
2011-02-10 12:46 <dvdk> not today :)
2011-02-10 12:47 <dvdk> but the future midnight :)
2011-02-10 12:47 <kyak> ok, i'll try to remember it next time i commit
2011-02-10 12:48 <dvdk> can't await to see whether it works
2011-02-10 13:00 <kyak> will commit always at 4 a.m. My employer won't have a clue ;) I'm a tough man, working at nights :)
2011-02-10 13:03 <wpwrak> kyak: then rumors will start spreading that you're always sleepy during the day :)
2011-02-10 13:07 <kyak> good point :)
2011-02-10 14:14 <lekernel> wow, when I hear that I'm happy of my choice of not having an employer to tell me where I should commit code and when :)
2011-02-10 15:45 <rjeffries> looks like someone will soon have their hands on a Ben
2011-02-10 18:39 <wpwrak> and besides the heisenboard, there's the tamagochiban (i wonder if this kind of morphing works - anyone speaking japanese here ? :). the tamagochiban works, but only for a while. then it need some random debugging, after which it works again for a while.
2011-02-10 19:21 <roh> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Anspruch-auf-Schadensersatz-bei-LGPL-Verletzung-1187764.html
2011-02-10 19:21 <roh> lgpl successfull in court
2011-02-10 19:21 <wpwrak> roh: yeah. a bit awkwardly handled, but a success nevertheless :)
2011-02-10 19:25 <roh> well..they tried.
2011-02-10 19:26 <roh> the 'soft' way first... seems it didnt help
2011-02-10 19:26 <wpwrak> roh: probably a case of a company with lawyers in need of justifying their existence
2011-02-10 19:27 <roh> wpwrak: naah.. i dont think so.
2011-02-10 19:27 <roh> i guess it wasnt cheap to go through that at all.. so the payments should pay the legal bills if at all
2011-02-10 19:29 <wpwrak> no, i mean on the side of the violators
2011-02-10 19:32 <roh> vertriebsexperten... means. clueless idiots in sales.
2011-02-10 19:36 <roh> ;)
2011-02-10 19:50 <kristianpaul> xiangfu: morning !
2011-02-10 19:50 <xiangfu> morning
2011-02-10 19:51 <kristianpaul> wee my local owrt finish okay, so i'm not going to complaing with you for now ;-)
2011-02-10 19:58 <wpwrak> xiangfu: kristianpaul spends the whole day searching for bugs to annoy you with when you get up :)
2011-02-10 20:14 <xiangfu> ;-)
2011-02-10 20:23 <kristianpaul> http://opentsps.com/
2011-02-10 20:24 <kristianpaul> lekernel: ^
2011-02-10 20:48 <kristianpaul> wtf http://venezuela.campus-party.org/2011/cultura-libre.html#CopyleftHardware
2011-02-10 20:53 <steve|m> and why the hell do they show punkbuster in the console window?
2011-02-10 20:54 <kristianpaul> messy party ;)
2011-02-10 20:54 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: looks almost like mm1 with jtag board :)
2011-02-10 20:55 <wpwrak> or is it actually the mm1 ?
2011-02-10 20:55 <kristianpaul> yeah
2011-02-10 20:56 <kristianpaul> seems you dont have a mm1 ;)
2011-02-10 20:56 <kristianpaul> it is wpwrak
2011-02-10 20:56 <steve|m> well, it's on the first page of course ;) http://www.google.de/images?hl=de&source=imghp&q="copyleft+hardware"
2011-02-10 20:57 <steve|m> sorry.. rather http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q="copyleft+hardware"
2011-02-10 20:59 <kristianpaul> he
2011-02-10 20:59 <kristianpaul> i see why wolfgang likes google now :p
2011-02-10 21:00 <kristianpaul> well, actually there are no other copyleft hardware projests (yet) around isnt.. ;-)
2011-02-10 21:01 <steve|m> yes, "commercial copyleft"
2011-02-10 21:57 <wpwrak> rjeffries: hmmm ... Anarctica ... in spanish, the "h" of the greek-transliterated "ch" tends to get dropped. so is this an anarchist's utopia ?
2011-02-10 22:07 <roh> wpwrak: ooooohhhhh *bigeyes* anarchika! *ducks*
2011-02-10 22:17 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-02-10 22:20 <rjeffries> hello
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: autonomously restore the clock output settings after an RF reset http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e8b6804
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: small layout improvements, mainly for solderability http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6968441
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: draw in bottom edge by 5 mil to prevent touching the connector http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/509542a
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: further abstract board functions http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f8fbb02
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib: cache chip ID in the descriptor http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e73ca5f
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools: give the driver control over CLKM (for ATmega32U2 boards) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b0c15b7
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/Makefile (clean): didn't remove Ben-specific object files http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/19926ae
2011-02-10 22:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-id.c (show_usb_info): pretty-print the MCU type for ATUSB boards http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1d6fbcb
2011-02-10 22:21 <rjeffries> just gave the Ben pitch to a group of 12 guys in Sanluis Obispo
2011-02-10 23:46 <roh> wpwrak: any ideas about cheap flights to the carribean not involving the us from europe?
2011-02-10 23:46 <roh> friend of mine wants to visit a conference on st. lucia