2011-02-02 00:11 <rjeffries> back
2011-02-02 00:45 <rjeffries> Pamda|x201 where ar eyou located in terms of geography (I am in Calif, usa)
2011-02-02 01:26 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: when I grow up I want to be like you, great work dude! (aka ben_8:10_uart +1)
2011-02-02 01:27 <tuxbrain> wolfspraul: have you seen it?
2011-02-02 01:27 <tuxbrain> how should be the cost of produce lets say a hundred in china/taiwan?
2011-02-02 01:32 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain: seen what?
2011-02-02 01:33 <tuxbrain> 8:10 uart board
2011-02-02 01:33 <tuxbrain>  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/
2011-02-02 01:36 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: how easy is to access to the serial is right now?
2011-02-02 01:37 <tuxbrain> I bet is harder than echo "whatever" > /dev/ben810tty
2011-02-02 01:43 <tuxbrain> wow, you have patched avrdude to be able to use sdio as programer :)
2011-02-02 01:44 <tuxbrain> wolfspraul: this should be added to default distro asap :)
2011-02-02 02:34 <rjeffries> actually first I have a small work project to finish. when I get that done I'll do that "for fun"
2011-02-02 02:34 <rjeffries> sorry that was dupe
2011-02-02 02:41 <rjeffries> wpwrak did some PCB quotes rough estimate (was standard thickness for example) at qty 2 $31/ea
2011-02-02 02:41 <tuxbrain> and qty 100 ?
2011-02-02 02:42 <rjeffries> qty 25 $13.50 qty 50 $7.29 qty 100 $3.87 this is VERY very rough but two sided etc
2011-02-02 02:44 <rjeffries> I did not bother with higher qty tomorrow will stry to get a more accurate quote
2011-02-02 02:44 <rjeffries> the vendor is https://www.protoexpress.com/
2011-02-02 02:44 <rjeffries> I hope that the thiner fiberglass his uart needs will decrease cost
2011-02-02 02:44 <rjeffries> hello David a.k.a. tuxbrain
2011-02-02 02:44 <rjeffries> whoops there goes our bot
2011-02-02 02:45 <rjeffries> hi xiangfu
2011-02-02 02:45 <xiangfu> rjeffries: Hi
2011-02-02 02:47 <tuxbrain> thanks rjeffries :)
2011-02-02 02:47 <tuxbrain> see you later guys
2011-02-02 02:48 <wolfspraul> 100 is a very hard number to make, hard economically
2011-02-02 02:48 <rjeffries> too low
2011-02-02 02:48 <wolfspraul> also it requires smt, another big block of costs
2011-02-02 02:48 <wolfspraul> you will see later :-)
2011-02-02 02:49 <rjeffries> I was really looking at small number for playing around
2011-02-02 02:49 <wolfspraul> up to 10 is one path, for little boards like this you solder by hand if at all possible
2011-02-02 02:49 <rjeffries> I am only thinking of PCB fab
2011-02-02 02:49 <wolfspraul> 100 for this thing is very tough
2011-02-02 02:49 <wolfspraul> I made 100 jtag-serial and it cost me 30 USD / pc, not even including the high-speed bug we still haven't fixed.
2011-02-02 02:50 <rjeffries> heh you do NOT understand I was lookig at how to get ONE for me and not have to do the whole PCB DIY is all\
2011-02-02 02:50 <wolfspraul> how do you solder?
2011-02-02 02:50 <wolfspraul> have you made stuff before?
2011-02-02 02:50 <rjeffries> look you think I am somthething I am not
2011-02-02 02:50 <rjeffries> I personally solder by hand
2011-02-02 02:51 <rjeffries> but I am aware people do small run smt using simple equipmet
2011-02-02 02:51 <wolfspraul> it's a qfn-28, right?
2011-02-02 02:51 <rjeffries> I have to look at all the specs
2011-02-02 02:52 <wolfspraul> ok anyway your approach is right, the numbers you posted also look right
2011-02-02 02:52 <rjeffries> I am NOt repeat NOT setting up a mfg busines was poking around to get some clue
2011-02-02 02:52 <wolfspraul> yes, great!
2011-02-02 02:52 <rjeffries> on wherher I might avoid misery
2011-02-02 02:52 <wolfspraul> I like to see familiar numbers :-)
2011-02-02 02:52 <rjeffries> you are paranoid I think
2011-02-02 02:53 <rjeffries> small smile
2011-02-02 02:53 <rjeffries> nobody can compete with Taiwan so copyleft is no threat
2011-02-02 02:53 <wolfspraul> could not disagree more
2011-02-02 02:54 <rjeffries> I suspec you may not mfg the werner uart board
2011-02-02 02:54 <wolfspraul> don't know yet. it just arrived on the scene for me.
2011-02-02 02:54 <rjeffries> those prices were RAW PCB
2011-02-02 02:54 <wolfspraul> of course
2011-02-02 02:54 <rjeffries> no assembly although that house will do it
2011-02-02 02:54 <rjeffries> it is a simle board IMO
2011-02-02 02:55 <rjeffries> tuxvran (david) has some dreams
2011-02-02 02:55 <wolfspraul> you can very well compete with Taiwan, or China, even if you do everything in or from the US.
2011-02-02 02:55 <rjeffries> maybe he will make them and I can buy one eventually
2011-02-02 02:56 <wolfspraul> I don't know whether the big guys will move out of China one day, but I definitely expect a lot of small startups manufacturing stuff outside China in coming years.
2011-02-02 02:56 <rjeffries> well the uart board opens the door to Nano talkin to control boards such as various and sundry aduino knockoffs
2011-02-02 02:56 <wolfspraul> along those lines, just quick, I read an interesting comment from HTC a few days ago
2011-02-02 02:56 <rjeffries> yes?
2011-02-02 02:56 <wolfspraul> they posted fantastic 2010 numbers, and expect even more growth in 2011
2011-02-02 02:56 <wolfspraul> mostly Android driven it seems
2011-02-02 02:57 <rjeffries> ok no big surprise
2011-02-02 02:57 <wolfspraul> but now - they will double the capacity of their factory near Shanghai
2011-02-02 02:57 <rjeffries> yup they make a great android phone maybe the best
2011-02-02 02:57 <wolfspraul> also no surprise
2011-02-02 02:57 <wolfspraul> and - build a new factory in Taiwan!
2011-02-02 02:57 <rjeffries> that is not a surprise is it
2011-02-02 02:57 <rjeffries> og that is interesting
2011-02-02 02:57 <wolfspraul> that's a big surprise. there has been nothing but a mass exodus in Taiwan the last 10 years.
2011-02-02 02:57 <rjeffries> spreading the risk around I guess
2011-02-02 02:58 <rjeffries> oh OK
2011-02-02 02:58 <wolfspraul> so maybe I'm overrating this from a press release, maybe it's just a small experimental line or whatever. but there may also be some bigger strategic thinking behind it.
2011-02-02 02:58 <wolfspraul> I found it interesting.
2011-02-02 02:58 <rjeffries> me too. I assumed China shadow is very marge over Taiwan
2011-02-02 02:59 <rjeffries> s/marge/large
2011-02-02 02:59 <wolfspraul> the last phone manufacturing in Germany closed many years ago, I believe it was a Motorola line making some high-end (back then) 3G phones
2011-02-02 02:59 <rjeffries> yup US has stupidly moved almost all mfg to China
2011-02-02 02:59 <wolfspraul> Nokia closed one too, maybe that was the last one.
2011-02-02 02:59 <wolfspraul> not sure about stupid, but yeah. there are very good reasons to do so.
2011-02-02 03:00 <wolfspraul> where are the non-stupid people then that invest contrarian ? :-)
2011-02-02 03:00 <rjeffries> for fast turn proto US can compete as you save time and hassle of customs and shipping costs
2011-02-02 03:00 <wolfspraul> if work like the one from Werner and copyleft hw in general continues, products like phones, smartphones, tablets, etc will first of all be demystified
2011-02-02 03:00 <wolfspraul> from there it should not be too big of a step to a real profitable business
2011-02-02 03:01 <rjeffries> oh I understand but in some ways globalization totally sucks
2011-02-02 03:01 <rjeffries> maybe that is a stretch to me  but also not something I worry about
2011-02-02 03:02 <rjeffries> On another matter I will email you a couple of questions directly
2011-02-02 03:15 <czr> Nokia still has a protoline in Salo AFAIK
2011-02-02 03:16 <czr> they closed the main higher-end one in Oulu already some years back
2011-02-02 03:16 <czr> also, regarding manuf in china/tw, AFAIK it's not really sane for batches of under 1k
2011-02-02 03:17 <czr> and there will always be interesting issues, certainly with higher technology stuff (BGA esp).
2011-02-02 03:22 <rjeffries> czr i worked at a US company that moved all manufacturing to China
2011-02-02 03:23 <rjeffries> it save a lot of money and in general with a LOT of care and feeding
2011-02-02 03:23 <rjeffries> quality was OK to excellent
2011-02-02 03:23 <rjeffries> they had dense ball grid arrays to yes soldering issues are always a bitch
2011-02-02 03:24 <rjeffries> czr may I ask weher you are on the globe? ;) I am california
2011-02-02 03:24 <tuxbrain> I'm back
2011-02-02 03:24 <rjeffries> tuxbrain hello
2011-02-02 03:24 <tuxbrain> hi, so dreaming hum?
2011-02-02 03:25 <tuxbrain> :)
2011-02-02 03:25 <rjeffries> I just sent wolfspraul a letter asking about uart card
2011-02-02 03:25 <czr> rjeffries, in Finland
2011-02-02 03:25 <rjeffries> Nice place I have visted a few times in an earlier life
2011-02-02 03:25 <czr> rjeffries, did you have existing people in China and how large batches did you do?
2011-02-02 03:26 <czr> it's nice in the summer. it's winter now. %#$#^#!!1one.
2011-02-02 03:26 <rjeffries> the compaby where I worked never had on-site person in China.
2011-02-02 03:26 <czr> isn't a winter-person
2011-02-02 03:26 <czr> hmm. so how did you find the proper factory over there?
2011-02-02 03:27 <rjeffries> batches were form a fe hundred to a few thousand very complex 8 or more llayer boards
2011-02-02 03:27 <rjeffries> trust me quality was an ongoing issue
2011-02-02 03:27 <czr> narrow pitch?
2011-02-02 03:27 <czr> it always is
2011-02-02 03:27 <rjeffries> the sheet metal was ok
2011-02-02 03:27 <rjeffries> oh yes. our CTO had a rule
2011-02-02 03:27 <czr> I guess the main problem would be how to communicate effectively the quality stuff..
2011-02-02 03:28 <rjeffries> if you have any gree showing on the PCB you have not packed enough on it
2011-02-02 03:28 <czr> hah
2011-02-02 03:28 <rjeffries> the contract manufacturer we used has SOME people with good english skills and who were smart
2011-02-02 03:28 <czr> well, the problem with electronics manuf nowadays is that even if you want to do PCBs locally, it's getting harder and harder now.
2011-02-02 03:28 <rjeffries> but lots of conference calls were dreadful
2011-02-02 03:28 <czr> we used to have a large electronics manuf industry in finland
2011-02-02 03:29 <rjeffries> yes it is due to environmental and other issues
2011-02-02 03:29 <czr> but all those companies have relocated to china now and pretty much no remaining manuf lines here anymore
2011-02-02 03:29 <rjeffries> but in medium quantity we can do ok in USA
2011-02-02 03:29 <czr> nods
2011-02-02 03:29 <rjeffries> ar eyou an EE
2011-02-02 03:29 <czr> we mainly do quite small runs, <500
2011-02-02 03:30 <rjeffries> what does your company do if I might sk
2011-02-02 03:30 <rjeffries> s/sk/ask
2011-02-02 03:30 <czr> I don't know what I am really. I interface quite a bit with our electronics designers and handle system level software issues.
2011-02-02 03:30 <czr> we make affordable modular home automation platform/system.
2011-02-02 03:30 <czr> (current market is in Finland only, so the web pages are all in finnish: www.ebts.fi)
2011-02-02 03:31 <rjeffries> ok cool. I will check it out
2011-02-02 03:31 <rjeffries> well there is this thing called google translate
2011-02-02 03:31 <czr> yes there is, but considering the pages are mostly marketing crap, I wouldn't really hold your hopes too high :-).
2011-02-02 03:32 <czr> do ask though, if interested..
2011-02-02 03:32 <rjeffries> ok. so what communication method do you use between master and slaves is it wirelss
2011-02-02 03:32 <rjeffries> brb
2011-02-02 03:33 <czr> we don't do wireless since there's no reliable way of doing it
2011-02-02 03:33 <czr> we use a star-topology and all the edge devices are "stupid"
2011-02-02 03:33 <czr> which keeps the cost down
2011-02-02 03:33 <czr> cabling is regular cat, nothing fancy.
2011-02-02 03:33 <czr> this also means that the system isn't really suitable for installs after the house has completed.
2011-02-02 03:34 <czr> a wireless sensor/switch-thingy is under development, but I'm busy with other crap now, so it will have to wait.. :-)
2011-02-02 03:42 <rjeffries> czr yeah wireless will help for existing residence
2011-02-02 03:43 <czr> nods
2011-02-02 03:43 <rjeffries> have you loked at waht Jee abs is doing?
2011-02-02 03:43 <czr> the main issue we have with wireless is security really.
2011-02-02 03:43 <rjeffries> s/abs/Labs
2011-02-02 03:43 <rjeffries> security is a bitch I agree
2011-02-02 03:44 <czr> hmm, not seen it
2011-02-02 03:45 <rjeffries> bright guy one man shop very inventive and a nice guy
2011-02-02 03:45 <czr> what does it use for radio and implementation?
2011-02-02 03:46 <czr> we've been playing around with a custom protol on top of 15.4 hw radio parts
2011-02-02 03:47 <czr> protocol even..
2011-02-02 03:48 <rjeffries> he uses the HopeRF  or similar chips in 800 Mhz or so
2011-02-02 03:48 <rjeffries> I think 802.15.4 radios is a good idea, that is waht werner is using
2011-02-02 03:48 <rjeffries> for atBen and atUSB (as you know)
2011-02-02 03:48 <czr> yes
2011-02-02 03:49 <czr> I did take a look at them at some point
2011-02-02 03:49 <czr> I really liked AT86RF stuff
2011-02-02 03:50 <czr> the problem with that is while it has integrated AES engine, you'd need to pass the data twice over SPI to the chip in order to do the stuff. and it has no integrated key storage so you'd need to pass the key as well over SPI
2011-02-02 03:50 <czr> so that kind of blows quite majorly.
2011-02-02 03:50 <czr> although there should be an integrated version of AT86RF and ATmega soon for the euro-band as well.
2011-02-02 03:51 <rjeffries> cool
2011-02-02 03:51 <czr> yeah, it was a fun project, but as said, been busy with other crap as of late..
2011-02-02 03:51 <czr> also, I really need to implement the crypto stuff properly. was thinking of using binary ECC, but its performance really blows
2011-02-02 03:51 <czr> so will have to try other stuff.
2011-02-02 03:52 <rjeffries> I had not thought through the security stuff at all
2011-02-02 03:53 <rjeffries> I've been thinking about a non-hostile environment
2011-02-02 03:53 <czr> there are no non-hostile environments with RF.
2011-02-02 03:53 <rjeffries> but that is naive for many real world situatons such as BUILGING COTROL
2011-02-02 03:53 <czr> yes
2011-02-02 03:53 <czr> which is why we don't do RF yet
2011-02-02 03:53 <czr> in our products I mean.
2011-02-02 03:53 <rjeffries> nods
2011-02-02 03:54 <rjeffries> why ar eyou endpoint non-intelligent? MCUs are so cheap maybe you did not mean no MCU, just limited intelligence
2011-02-02 03:55 <czr> so that we don't have to manufacture them and people are free to choose whichever switches they want according to their interior decoration needs
2011-02-02 03:55 <czr> while MCUs are "cheap", using MCUs is not.
2011-02-02 03:56 <rjeffries> has "limited intelligence" and needs sleep to maintain the small number of remaining brain cells. a neuron is a terrible thing to waste
2011-02-02 03:56 <czr> they need sofrware. they need someone to program them. they need software updates.. etc.. and everything costs.
2011-02-02 03:56 <czr> heh
2011-02-02 03:56 <rjeffries> ok I see what you are doing
2011-02-02 03:56 <rjeffries> understood
2011-02-02 03:56 <czr> yeah, I should really be working anyway.. :-)
2011-02-02 03:56 <czr> yeah, while from a hobbyist perspective, things are always easy
2011-02-02 03:56 <rjeffries> those 3rd party switches have mcus but it is not YOUR problem
2011-02-02 03:56 <czr> real life production tends to complicate stuff quite a bit :-).
2011-02-02 03:57 <rjeffries> ok nice meeting you and good dat/night/morning hwatever
2011-02-02 03:57 <czr> likewise, night night :-)
2011-02-02 03:57 <czr> (haven't had even lunch over here yet)
2011-02-02 05:07 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: qfn-28 with a 0.45 mm pitch ;-) but it's not really harder than the usual 0.5 mm.
2011-02-02 05:08 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes but manually soldering those is in the higher levels of skill
2011-02-02 05:08 <wolfspraul> so unless Ron has soldered qfn before, that will already be a major learning blocker for him :-)
2011-02-02 05:08 <wolfspraul> not bad of course, can learn that too...
2011-02-02 05:09 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: (how easy to use) well, first someone has to write some real firmware. right now, all it does is blink a LED :) doesn't even talk to the host.
2011-02-02 05:12 <tuxbrain> that someone is already assigned?
2011-02-02 05:20 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (higher levels) indeed. takes a bit of practice and a slightly above baseline home lab. nothing overly fancy, though.
2011-02-02 05:21 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: (assigned) i guess i'll be the default victim :) but only when done/bored with atusb. that uart was mainly to test the programming process on a simple board, where mistakes hurt less.
2011-02-02 05:26 <tuxbrain> ok understood, something I can do to help you meanwhile just tellme , surelly the anwer will be "now I'm busy, I will do it later" :P
2011-02-02 05:27 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: that's roughly what i had in mind indeed :-)
2011-02-02 05:28 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: but you can of course make a board and start hacking. don't have to wait for me :)
2011-02-02 05:30 <tuxbrain> ha! maximum experiment is to plug an Atmega328 on a bread board and try to mimic the connections with the breakout board, try to compile your patched avrdude, and see what happens
2011-02-02 05:31 <tuxbrain> I onli have a really basic soldering iron and no skills for smt
2011-02-02 05:32 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: yet you build UV boxes for pcb-making ? :)
2011-02-02 05:33 <tuxbrain> that was victor :)
2011-02-02 05:33 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: ah well, so you have an in-house backup available :)
2011-02-02 05:33 <tuxbrain> but we still have the problem of cut, and soldering
2011-02-02 05:34 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: the cutting will be a bit tricky. may take a few attempts to get right. you have a few 100 um of acceptable tolerance, though.
2011-02-02 05:35 <tuxbrain> hehehe narrow margin for manual cut :P
2011-02-02 05:36 <tuxbrain> shit.. the atmegas I have arround are 5V
2011-02-02 05:38 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: best to make a rough cut with a dremel first, then work the fine details with a knife
2011-02-02 05:39 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: atmegas that can't do 3.3 V ? wow. are you sure ?
2011-02-02 05:40 <tuxbrain> I will review the ATMEGA328P-PU spreadsheet
2011-02-02 05:41 <wpwrak> 1.8-5.5 V :)
2011-02-02 05:42 <tuxbrain> great then :) experiment is mantained in the todo list :)
2011-02-02 05:44 <tuxbrain> Arduino lovers will apreciate also to have a portable and cute atmega firmware flasher that can also play tetris :)
2011-02-02 05:44 <tuxbrain> and listen music
2011-02-02 05:45 <czr> tuxbrain, the voltage defines the max freq
2011-02-02 05:45 <czr> also most atmegas don't actually supprot 1.8V, only the PV series AFAIK
2011-02-02 05:45 <czr> 3.3V is pretty safe all up to ~15-16MHz.
2011-02-02 05:45 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: now someone has to compose a song to play while flashing the firmware ;-)
2011-02-02 05:46 <tuxbrain> hahahaah
2011-02-02 05:50 <tuxbrain> mmm but you have given me an idea :), a guided flashing tool, a simple gui front end that tells you where to pinch what , select a file to upload and a tadaaaa! at the end of the flashing this + some arduino edit-compile enviroment even in console, will catch up more than 20.000x2 eyes :) maybe some one can decide also to buy one
2011-02-02 05:55 <steve|m> firmware-flashing via midi? hey, playing notes is way cooler than punchcards
2011-02-02 05:55 <tuxbrain> changing slightly of topic. I prefer female connections in the board if one day you decide to make me one :)
2011-02-02 05:58 <czr> steve|m, considering that midi doesn't even have crc.. :-).
2011-02-02 05:58 <czr> although one could add the crc separately by playing it. check-chord after 4 notes.
2011-02-02 07:51 <zrafa> wolfspraul: I know at least an artist who just does art. Her work was made for fun, to put the imagination on some paper, etc.. It is just pure art for her.. He would like to show her work to the world if she could. And she is really enjoying doing similar works with some collegues because they do things like workshops or similar (dont know the exact word). BUt well, I would like to tell you that if she needs some day to put some license on her work she w
2011-02-02 07:52 <zrafa> wolfspraul: And I know that she hates capitalismo and communism as well.. like the stickers.. no capitalism no communism..
2011-02-02 07:53 <zrafa> wolfspraul: but well, my point is.. if she needs some day to use some license because that is like the things work.. she would like to share the stuff but she would not like to see her stuff for sale. No becuse others could get money, because she hates that and she is not happy with art and money together..
2011-02-02 07:53 <zrafa> wolfspraul: would not be okey for her some license CC but no for commercial?
2011-02-02 07:56 <zrafa> I ask you because it looks like from your last mail you thinks that CC should have never done the non-commercial.. but I think that for some cases maybe it is useful. Still if it is useful for other meanings like the friend of mine (who would not use that license to avoid other to get money, she would use just because her thoughts are not happy with art and money together)
2011-02-02 09:24 <wolfspraul> zrafa: I think -nc and -nd are horrible ideas, yes.
2011-02-02 09:24 <wolfspraul> the lawyers who invented them should have interpreted their professional responsibility in such a way as to never create those licenses in the first place.
2011-02-02 09:24 <wolfspraul> I doubt the practical enforceability, let's just start somewhere.
2011-02-02 09:25 <kristianpaul> saluda
2011-02-02 09:26 <wolfspraul> there has been a lot of chat on this channel about -nc and -nd, no need to repeat even more, the archives should still have it
2011-02-02 09:38 <zrafa> wolfspraul: no, and I do not want to talk much about that (licenses). :)
2011-02-02 09:38 <zrafa> wolfspraul: just I was thinking on some usage of that
2011-02-02 09:38 <wpwrak> zrafa: -nc is just some expression of paranoia ;-)
2011-02-02 09:42 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: qball: make Enter key work and change fonts http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9da19d4
2011-02-02 09:49 <wolfspraul> lekernel: hi there. do you know the de-bug.de magazine?
2011-02-02 09:49 <lekernel> hi
2011-02-02 09:49 <lekernel> no, I don't
2011-02-02 09:50 <wolfspraul> ok, I don't know the circulation (number of readers), but I want to take a shot to intro m1 to them, see whether they like it.
2011-02-02 09:50 <wolfspraul> I have a good introduction (a journalist who used to write for them years ago). They are in Berlin.
2011-02-02 09:50 <wolfspraul> so if it works out and they are interested, maybe you can go there to demo m1 to them?
2011-02-02 09:51 <lekernel> yeah go ahead
2011-02-02 09:51 <wolfspraul> ok, just wanted to check first
2011-02-02 09:52 <wolfspraul> I will email them, and basically offer that you go there for a demo (cc you, although I don't know whether I should email in German or English, maybe I email in German)
2011-02-02 09:52 <wolfspraul> when are you back in Berlin roughly?
2011-02-02 09:52 <lekernel> ok, i'll be back to Berlin on the 7th
2011-02-02 09:52 <wolfspraul> great
2011-02-02 12:47 <roh> window 14
2011-02-02 12:47 <roh> sigh
2011-02-02 12:55 <kristianpaul> (-:
2011-02-02 13:26 <xMff> who may I talk to about openwrt libiconv/libintl full/stub issues? I am about to make them switchable but packages needing them need some minor changes
2011-02-02 13:27 <xMff> I think I talked to kyak and bartbes the last time but not sure
2011-02-02 13:27 <bartbes> yeah, you talked to me
2011-02-02 13:28 <bartbes> but I can only complain ;)
2011-02-02 13:28 <xMff> heh
2011-02-02 13:30 <xMff> as I've noticed, qi-hardware now pins its feed to a fixed rev which is good, I just want to explain the new conventions for the intl/iconv stuff in case the feeds get updated sometime
2011-02-02 13:31 <wpwrak> xMff: kyak was the one who seem to have suffered most. not sure who's actually taking leadership on architectural questions, though
2011-02-02 13:32 <wpwrak> xMff: if you're subscribed to discussion@lists.en.qi-hardware.com, that may be a good place to post the conventions
2011-02-02 13:32 <xMff> okay
2011-02-02 13:32 <xMff> I am not yet but will probably subscribe later
2011-02-02 13:32 <xMff> I followed the list through the online archives until now
2011-02-02 13:39 <wpwrak> i hope everyone who cares reads the list. sometimes they're a little shy with responding :)
2011-02-02 13:44 <kyak> xMff: would be good to know about the switchable solution you've mentioned, could you post it in qi-hardware mailing list?
2011-02-02 13:45 <xMff> kyak: I'll post a summary
2011-02-02 13:46 <xMff> it boils down to an extra indirection and a new menuconfig option
2011-02-02 13:46 <xMff> here's a big changeset which demonstrates the usage: http://luci.subsignal.org/~jow/packages-use-nls.patch - I'll commit that within the next hour
2011-02-02 13:48 <xMff> the gettext-full package is now also fixed
2011-02-02 13:51 <kyak> xMff: it's pretty clear on the packages side. A what's the menuconfig option?
2011-02-02 13:51 <xMff> its in Global Build Settings, [ ] Compile packages with full langauge support
2011-02-02 13:51 <xMff> the symbol is called CONFIG_BUILD_NLS
2011-02-02 13:52 <xMff> a bool
2011-02-02 13:53 <xMff> if it is enabled, resulting affected packages will depen on lib{iconv,intl}-full
2011-02-02 13:54 <xMff> if its disabled, they're build against the stubs and no opkg dependency arises
2011-02-02 13:54 <xMff> I did some compile testing with dbus, gtk, glib2, mpd and they currently build fine with both variants
2011-02-02 13:55 <xMff> will watch for the buildbot results during the next few days to catch new issues that crept in
2011-02-02 13:59 <kyak> xMff: thanks a lot, this is great!
2011-02-02 14:00 <kyak> xMff: do you think similar can be done to ncurses/ncursesw?
2011-02-02 14:00 <xMff> hmm. whats the diff there?
2011-02-02 14:01 <kyak> the thing is, many packages get built against ncurses, which doesn't support wide characters
2011-02-02 14:01 <kyak> like irssi, for instance
2011-02-02 14:01 <kyak> so there could be a global flag to build these against wide version of ncurses (i.e. ncursesw)
2011-02-02 14:02 <xMff> ah
2011-02-02 14:02 <kyak> of, course it would require a big job on packages side, like you did this time
2011-02-02 14:03 <xMff> well, luckily our buildbots now generate a tarball of all config.log files, makes it easy to grep for packages dealing with ncurses
2011-02-02 14:04 <kyak> xMff: oh, btw, do you plan to backport this menuconfig flag to backfire?
2011-02-02 14:04 <xMff> it already is
2011-02-02 14:04 <kyak> nice!
2011-02-02 14:12 <xMff> I'll see what I can do about ncurses, might take a while though
2011-02-02 14:13 <xMff> imo it would make sense to couple it with the same option
2011-02-02 14:13 <kyak> yes, sounds reasonable
2011-02-02 14:16 <kyak> we have 15 packages in qi-openwrt-packages that depend on libiconv
2011-02-02 14:17 <kyak> hope to test the BUILD_NLS soon, after xiangfu merges latest backfire into qi's git
2011-02-02 14:17 <xMff> if you include nls.mk the TARGET_*FLAGS get automatically amended to include -I/-L to whatever iconv implementation
2011-02-02 14:17 <kyak> yep, i got it
2011-02-02 14:17 <kyak> very convenient
2011-02-02 14:17 <xMff> if you use other options like EXTRA_*FLAGS you have to add $(ICONV_PREFIX) yourself
2011-02-02 14:18 <xMff> DEPENDS:=+libiconv +libintl should be replaced with DEPENDS:=$(ICONV_DEPENDS) $(INTL_DEPENDS)
2011-02-02 14:18 <kyak> it looks like this process can be automated
2011-02-02 14:18 <kyak> not that it is really necessary to 15 apps...
2011-02-02 14:19 <kyak> s/to/for
2011-02-02 14:19 <xMff> well some well-crafted sed commands will do the trick I supposer
2011-02-02 14:19 <xMff> -r
2011-02-02 14:19 <kyak> did you crawl through all the packages by hand?
2011-02-02 14:19 <xMff> yes
2011-02-02 14:20 <kyak> it's more error-prune :)
2011-02-02 14:20 <xMff> vim $(rgrep ...)
2011-02-02 14:20 <kyak> oh, i meant, less errors by hand :)
2011-02-02 14:21 <xMff> yes indeed
2011-02-02 14:22 <xMff> but gets a bit repetitive after a while
2011-02-02 14:23 <kyak> time to sleep now.. thanks again for great efforts!
2011-02-02 14:23 <xMff> np. bye