2011-01-26 00:02 we always using the name "Data Partition",  so /data is better, in fact I always using the /data then make 'ln -s /data /root' 2011-01-26 00:06 we can add a script file support 'mount' 'umount' 'format' data partition. 2011-01-26 00:06 we have one http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/data/qi_lb60/files/usr/bin/fw_setenv_default 2011-01-26 00:09 xiangfu: ok /data is good, it's also compatible with jlime 2011-01-26 00:09 if we use /root/something or /home we just create trouble 2011-01-26 00:09 no symlinks either 2011-01-26 00:14 ok. I will create a package keep those nanonote special files. (those are not overwrite openwrt files) 2011-01-26 01:11 (/home) if a user wants to, they can also just mount it over an existing /home. 2011-01-26 01:27 wpwrak: oh definitely. I just try to find a default way that will cause as little friction as possible, and open ways for customization. 2011-01-26 01:27 xiangfu: i made a fix for gottet, not sure it'll help, but it 2011-01-26 01:28 it's how it works in other apps 2011-01-26 01:29 xiangfu: mplayer is playing the sample ogg file, too 2011-01-26 02:00 kyak: thanks. I will test and give some feedback . 2011-01-26 02:06 xiangfu: do you know about the IGNORE_ERRORS=m flag for the make? Seems that when some pacakges fail to build (gnuplot-gfx), make skips it. But for some pacakges (guile) make doesn't skip it and exits.. 2011-01-26 02:07 kyak: only the package mark "=m" , 2011-01-26 02:08 kyak: if the package 'guile=y', it's will not continue build 2011-01-26 02:25 ah ok 2011-01-26 07:15 larsc: btw, is the jz4760 already well-supported ? or would it be a major undertaking if such a chip was to be used in the next nanonote ? 2011-01-26 07:15 larsc: (I mean on the kernel side) 2011-01-26 07:16 larsc: particularly the asymmetric multicore worries me a bit ... but maybe the peripherals also changed a bit. seen that with samsung. 2011-01-26 07:24 Free Technology Academy Online education about Free Software: http://ftacademy.org/ 2011-01-26 08:38 phew. major infrastructure meltdown. yesterday, no elevators and only low water pressure. this morning, in addition no electricity for almost 1 hour. luckily, now things are back. 2011-01-26 08:45 wpwrak: about 4760 - my latest status is that yes, there are many changes, and no, nobody is planning or pushing towards cleaning up the Ingenic mess (again) and upstreaming into kernel.org etc. 2011-01-26 08:48 wolfspraul: so quite the worst-case scenario :-( 2011-01-26 08:49 wolfspraul: how do you like the pre-4760 XBursts ? in terms of capabilities, availability, pricing, etc. ? 2011-01-26 08:52 wolfspraul: one problem i see is that none of them seems to support DDR. this would force you to use old memory technology, with a bad capacity/price ratio. 2011-01-26 08:52 you'll have the same problem with all off them, that the peripherals are different from the jz4740 2011-01-26 08:53 oh. no reuse ? 2011-01-26 08:53 wpwrak: yes correct, pre 4760 has no ddr 2011-01-26 08:54 a suckish situation 2011-01-26 08:54 and there are many changes between them because ingenic is essentially just licensing and combining ip blocks, so stuff is quite 'jumpy' between chips 2011-01-26 08:54 blargh 2011-01-26 08:54 not suckish, that's why we have Milkymist :-) 2011-01-26 08:54 how do they test it ?? 2011-01-26 08:54 some of the more simple one are similar between SoC versions, like rtc or gpio or timers 2011-01-26 08:56 larsc: at least something :) how about usb ? 2011-01-26 08:57 wolfspraul: do ingenic have any ddr-cabable cpu that's not the 4760 ? 2011-01-26 08:57 wolfspraul: the idea is to put the focus on Milkymist as the device for the future of qi copyleft project?.. selling it, improving it, etc? 2011-01-26 08:57 well usb host is ohci anyway 2011-01-26 08:57 larsc: ohci helps :) 2011-01-26 08:57 yes, the driver is 200 lines glue code 2011-01-26 08:57 a tad slow, but well .. 2011-01-26 08:58 wolfspraul: since there is no an easy way to improve the current nn device without making a new one completely different? 2011-01-26 08:58 but usb device has changed 2011-01-26 08:59 it's a OTG controller now 2011-01-26 09:00 larsc: oh, i see. the video subsystem as well ? or is at least the "dump frame buffer" still more or less the same ? 2011-01-26 09:00 dumB 2011-01-26 09:01 zrafa: don't understand your question 2011-01-26 09:01 it'll work i guess 2011-01-26 09:01 I have one product now - Ben NanoNote. And we keep trying to improve it in 20 different areas, Jlime being one of them. 2011-01-26 09:01 wpwrak: some registers seem to have additional fields 2011-01-26 09:01 zrafa: i see a few issues there: 1) i don't think MM1 is mature enough yet for a proper ben-like device and will probably take a bit of time (e.g., needs an MMU, probably some optimizations, lots of power-saving work, etc.) 2011-01-26 09:01 I seriously start to like Jane's latest jlime-inspired crochet case, maybe I'll order one for myself :-) 2011-01-26 09:01 then we are bringing out Milkymist One now 2011-01-26 09:02 it's still more work until it's a real product, with ce/fcc label, case, box, etc. 2011-01-26 09:02 then we see 2011-01-26 09:02 I have no fixed plans for Ya right now, essentially it's what's being discussed on the lists. 2011-01-26 09:02 we are all on the same page 2011-01-26 09:02 more memory, #1 :-) 2011-01-26 09:03 zrafa: 2) such a change would also affect higher layers. e.g., distribution efforts and such. this would mean that the whole community would restart from nearly zero. this may put off a lot of people. 2011-01-26 09:03 I would love better connectivity, the ben-wpan set including usb stick sounds perfect 2011-01-26 09:03 in parallel we see how far we can take milkymist one - that's a huge huge project 2011-01-26 09:03 I have no silver bullet in all this, we need to see how things are evolving, what works and what doesn't work. 2011-01-26 09:04 zrafa: 3) such a device may be just too queer (queerer than the mm1), which would mean low sales, further increasing the financing needs 2011-01-26 09:04 zrafa: that's why i'd hope for mm1 and a ben-like ya in parallel, and a merge maybe for the next generation 2011-01-26 09:05 yes I agree with wpwrak, but then it shoudl definitely be 4740-based 2011-01-26 09:05 larsc: (fields) okay, that always happens 2011-01-26 09:05 64 MB SDRAM 2011-01-26 09:05 reuse all of the excellent kernel work we did so far 2011-01-26 09:05 no 50, 55, 60 2011-01-26 09:06 we could even do that switchable client/host design similar to what the freerunner had, with one mini-b connector 2011-01-26 09:06 plus ben-wpan integrated 2011-01-26 09:06 sounds good enough to me 2011-01-26 09:06 try to make the memory bus wider. that will already double the throughput. this ought to help with things. 2011-01-26 09:06 meanwhile milkymist and m1 can mature in parallel 2011-01-26 09:07 ah, and a WQVGA :) 2011-01-26 09:07 wolfspraul: about my question. I am really happy with the Ben product, and I love to help to improve it whenever I can. But I see people is trying to put the disccusion about a new product. Completely different. 2011-01-26 09:07 wolfspraul: No me, again. And I am asking if they are not seeing the areas where qi project tries to improve the current Ben product. 2011-01-26 09:08 wolfspraul: so my question is about a next device, on hardware side. IF the focus is on Milkymist, because it would be perhaps easier to improve on hardware side. 2011-01-26 09:08 zrafa: i think the long-term strategy should be to have more independence on the cpu side. so the mm1 work looks very promising to me. at the same time, we have to acknowledge its limitations 2011-01-26 09:09 still don't understand the question 2011-01-26 09:09 I can tell you my personal opinion, which is that I totally don't like jumping around building this and that. 2011-01-26 09:09 wpwrak: yeah.. MM1 is another different product, no like Ben. I just was asking if maybe the idea would (because our world shows us limitations) be to focus on another product to keep live the qi project. 2011-01-26 09:09 this is a copyleft project, all those people who like to talk can throw some of their savings into a little 'let's build this or that' project of their own 2011-01-26 09:09 of course you will see that exactly ZERO of those things will actually get built :-) 2011-01-26 09:10 wolfspraul: (jump around) aw, i had to bite down hard on my tongue ;-) 2011-01-26 09:10 zrafa: ah ... another product, like what ? 2011-01-26 09:10 it's just a freaking hard work to bring a device like Ben NanoNote together. we burnt how many people with it now? don't know 2011-01-26 09:10 quite a few 2011-01-26 09:10 now Milkymist One, let's see whether we all survive it :-) 2011-01-26 09:11 so there is only a few shots we have in all this, those shots better be the right ones long term 2011-01-26 09:11 wolfspraul: how many people did you "burn" ? 2011-01-26 09:11 I am very very happy with my Ben NanoNote right now, it really takes up more and more use cases slowly. 2011-01-26 09:11 wolfspraul: and sorry I am not asking properly. The areas where I see Ben is improving are things I like. But I do not like much people do not see that 2011-01-26 09:11 wpwrak: another product different than nn 2011-01-26 09:11 agreed. we need to patiently improve the device and talk about how we use it and how well it works. 2011-01-26 09:12 of course during the Android dark age that's not so easy :-) 2011-01-26 09:12 at least they are not hunting us as witches yet 2011-01-26 09:12 zrafa: any specific ideas ? bicycle ? umbrella ? supercomputer ? 2011-01-26 09:12 zrafa: next product I do is Milkymist One. 2011-01-26 09:13 'product' as in ce/fcc, good photos, build to have in stock, press launch, etc. 2011-01-26 09:13 wpwrak: no.. just the current one : real time visual effects for VJs :) 2011-01-26 09:14 larsc: how is Linux on your m1? 2011-01-26 09:14 does it slowly feel like a real computer to you? 2011-01-26 09:14 wolfspraul: i think the ben per se still has a bit too many obvious shortcomings. for getting people to appreciate it more, it should be more "rounded". but yes, these could be simple improvements 2011-01-26 09:15 zrafa: so you're suggesting to abandon the ben-ya-... line of devices and focus exclusively on mm1 ? 2011-01-26 09:15 wpwrak: I would like to see more people improving the software side, no just 3, 4 guys. The same on hardware side. And I find that hard (trying to help to bring more people) 2011-01-26 09:15 wpwrak: NO! 2011-01-26 09:15 ;-) 2011-01-26 09:15 at least one clear statement ;-) 2011-01-26 09:16 larsc: maybe the most important Linux question is - how badly are you missing the mmu? 2011-01-26 09:17 wpwrak: I like Ben.. and I am not doing any suggestions.. I just see no easy way to improve Ben (from current disscusions here) like people are liking to see (on ML mainly) 2011-01-26 09:17 zrafa: the plan for now is: we have ben, continues to exist and to get supported. next is mm1. wolfgang can only work on making one product at a time, but that doesn't mean that the others are dead. it's just too hard to multitask such things. 2011-01-26 09:17 wpwrak: yeah, I understand all of that. ANd I read here often :) 2011-01-26 09:18 zrafa: (discussion on the list) hmm, they don't sound too unreasonable. if you ignore the usual 50% of wet dreams, then there's a good core everybody seems to agree on ;-) 2011-01-26 09:19 zrafa: i also think the ben form factor should be preserved. it's one of the things that make it unique. otherwise, you'll quickly find yourself competing with apple and the 1001 copycats. 2011-01-26 09:21 what is apple? :) 2011-01-26 09:23 some foul-tasting fruit, usually inhabited by worms :) 2011-01-26 09:23 wpwrak: well, and what about to continue using the current ingenic?.. will it be unavailable?.. would it hurt much because no ddr?.. would it let us to use some extra usb host? 2011-01-26 09:24 I think the 4740 will be available for a long time 2011-01-26 09:25 zrafa: i think the 4720/4740 would be tolerable from a technical point of view. it is a little short on peripherals, though, e.g., it has only one MMC host. 2011-01-26 09:26 zrafa: the lack of DDR means that we can't use modern memory. so the choices are limited, and per byte cost is higher. 2011-01-26 09:27 zrafa: (ddr) it's not terrible yet, but it will get worse with time. 2011-01-26 09:28 zrafa: e.g., if i look around at digi-key, SDR memory has a per byte price that's about twice that of DDR memory. (not sure if digi-key prices are really representative in this case, though. memory pricing is a bit tricky.) 2011-01-26 09:31 wpwrak: ah.. I see, well I like the current Ingenic power.. so if it is there on the future and we can use it for new Bens when needed, great :) plan A 2011-01-26 09:31 current Ingenic = 4720/4740 2011-01-26 09:35 wolfspraul: are any of the Jz475x available ? 2011-01-26 09:35 new Bens= more ram and wpan .. ah and screen HD :) 2011-01-26 09:36 e.g. the Jz4750 seems to have dual SPI and dual MMC. that would be very welcome. 2011-01-26 09:37 zrafa: HD3D ;-) 2011-01-26 09:37 ;-)) 2011-01-26 09:41 some sort of pointing device would be nice, too. touch screen or something else. i don't have a clear idea on that part yet. 2011-01-26 09:46 wolfspraul: well, it runs fine without crashing now. at least in qemu 2011-01-26 09:46 wpwrak: I never looked closer at 50/55 - for one there would be another big Linux effort, and then 50/55 are also far less economically successful than 40, less devices. 2011-01-26 09:46 wolfspraul: its not me who is missing the mmu, but a lot of programs do 2011-01-26 09:47 wolfspraul: mmh, i see. 2011-01-26 09:48 wolfspraul: so if going dual MMC (one inside, one outside), one would have to use GPIOs. 2011-01-26 09:52 larsc: do you plan to add target support for m1 to openwrt? 2011-01-26 09:53 or asking in a different way - how could one help with that, make it easier? I didn't follow the toolchain discussions in detail... any big work left there? 2011-01-26 09:56 wolfspraul: mwalle is working on adding lm32 support to uClibc 2011-01-26 09:56 (mmc on gpio) or share the bus. but that would be unfriendly towards big-banging cards. 2011-01-26 10:01 and would require some work to add it proper support for it 2011-01-26 10:03 yeah, that probably too. i also don't know how happy MMC/SD/SDIO peripherals are in general if the bus is shared. 2011-01-26 10:04 i guess SD/MMC would work, SDIO wouldn't at least not without some additional logic 2011-01-26 10:05 but there are MMC bus share ICs 2011-01-26 10:05 like http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/txs02612.html 2011-01-26 10:06 now it gets really scary ;-) 2011-01-26 10:07 such a switch would also interfere with bitbanging cards. so better just gpio. maybe make the internal one hw-assisted, the external one gpio. 2011-01-26 10:08 it'll be slow. 1M/s max and the cpu will be 100% 2011-01-26 10:09 now .. if fedex were nice enough to deliver my latest parcel, i could continue with the etching ... according to murphy's law, they door bell will ring exactly when the boards are in the acid. 2011-01-26 10:10 larsc: yes, it'll suck. but what choices do we have ? well, maybe something like the txs02612 plus some gpios on the sdio branch. 2011-01-26 10:11 of course, also this would need code support ... 2011-01-26 10:26 why would you need the extra gpios? 2011-01-26 10:28 i'll be back in 30 minutes or so... 2011-01-26 11:22 ok, looks as if didn't miss anything... 2011-01-26 11:30 had a nap, to be woken up by fedex ;-) 2011-01-26 11:30 larsc: the extra gpios for bitbanging cards 2011-01-26 11:30 larsc: i think the ability to add simple DIY peripherals is worth preserving 2011-01-26 11:31 ah ok 2011-01-26 11:33 but i guess you wouldn't need any extra gpios for it 2011-01-26 11:34 well, ok, you wouldn't be able to use the internal mmc card, if the mmc pins where used as gpio 2011-01-26 11:36 larsc: yes. you'd want to have both options. so one approach would be to have an external multiplexer for the MMC hw engine and add regular GPIOs on the 8:10 card side of the multiplexer. if used as MMC, you'd just tri-state the GPIOs. else, you'd switch the multiplexer away from this interface and activate the GPIOs. 2011-01-26 11:37 larsc: one limitation would be that one could do this only for one card. i.e., not both could be bitbanged. but that's probably okay. 2011-01-26 19:36 *** ERROR (IO) : Can't open a theme file specified for automatic loading 2011-01-26 19:36 hrmpf 2011-01-26 19:36 lekernel: Give the full path for the theme. 2011-01-26 19:37 I used --themedir... 2011-01-26 19:37 Did you include the extension? 2011-01-26 19:37 ah, works with full path 2011-01-26 19:37 no and that was the problem 2011-01-26 19:38 works now :) 2011-01-26 19:40 ah, tiling window management... 2011-01-26 19:47 arggg i missed the interesting earlier chat :-) 2011-01-26 19:48 mmc have a long run of posible/coming apps, hope time will show us that 2011-01-26 19:48 kristianpaul: and the qi-bot and logging was down, even worse 2011-01-26 19:48 larsc: wich apps miss mmu, are those critical for having a sort of usefull computer? 2011-01-26 19:48 and wpwrak is having power problems again, so he also can't read the backlog 2011-01-26 19:48 wolfspraul: yeah :( i just noticed too 2011-01-26 19:49 argg 2011-01-26 19:49 oh well, sometimes everything fails... 2011-01-26 19:49 yup 2011-01-26 22:35 rjeffries: ben-wpan is not proof-of-concept 2011-01-26 22:36 not sure what you mean with that term anyway. I am looking forward to using the boards in my real life. 2011-01-26 22:37 hi wolf. what I meant is that an L-shaped dongle off the sid eof Nanonote which (we shall see) may be knocked loose ocassinally is not what a larger potential target market would desire. 2011-01-26 22:38 i think he pointed just the connector 8:10 not to project itself (i hope i'm right ;-)) 2011-01-26 22:38 wejp: are you interested in gmu feedback here? I have two little ideas to improve the file browser view 2011-01-26 22:38 one would be that if you press enter to add a file to the playlist, the cursor advances to the next position 2011-01-26 22:38 It DOES prove out the rf circuitry and assocuated low-level code, and it gets the community going with 6LoWPAN protocol 2011-01-26 22:39 the other one would be to allow the selection of multiple files with shit-down, shift-up, then enter to add them all to the playlist 2011-01-26 22:39 not ecxactly what I meant. 6LoWpan needs to be INSIDE Nanonote to appeal to a larger market 2011-01-26 22:40 I should send a patch but too lazy to dive into the codes now :-) or rather the way it works currently is good enough :-) 2011-01-26 22:40 rjeffries: define inside 2011-01-26 22:40 it's very clever and will sell to some percentage of Ben owners 2011-01-26 22:40 software side is a WIP, but you cant said hw part (atben) is just proof of concept 2011-01-26 22:41 "inside" means a new PCB that incorporates RF chip and crystal and antenna 2011-01-26 22:41 my opinion 2011-01-26 22:41 had you grab last commits from ben-wpan? 2011-01-26 22:42 because actually thats what mainly the pcb is 2011-01-26 22:42 that is mot a critique, it is a statement of reality. it is brilliant work, but until it is inside the case it is a way to get Nanponote connevcted, but is not what one dreams of 2011-01-26 22:43 i see your point 2011-01-26 22:43 'proof of concept' is a meaningless neologism and doesn't explain anything 2011-01-26 22:43 well... 2011-01-26 22:43 we are talking past one another. I am saying TO ME it gets msuch more interesting when atBEN is integrated inside the Nanonote 2011-01-26 22:43 remenber when latops dint came witn wlan? 2011-01-26 22:43 built-in wlan 2011-01-26 22:44 either it works for someone or it doesn't work 2011-01-26 22:44 i used a dongle for long time 2011-01-26 22:44 jesus guys, this is 2011, I just checked my calender. people expect better 2011-01-26 22:44 whas that dongle prof of concept? (in that time) 2011-01-26 22:44 I am POSITIVE you are a great person, we simple disagree 2011-01-26 22:44 sure 2011-01-26 22:45 proof of concept is just a stupid term 2011-01-26 22:45 that is not relevant. we live in her and now this is not 1995 2011-01-26 22:45 gn8 i'm off 2011-01-26 22:45 because it doesn't explain anything 2011-01-26 22:45 wolf it is not. it is a widely used term that many people understan 2011-01-26 22:45 but of course you can continue to use it :-) 2011-01-26 22:45 horrible term, really. ask 50 people and they will give you all sorts of different meanings of it. 2011-01-26 22:46 damn i used now, and i realize now how missunderstood can be.. 2011-01-26 22:46 My point is, without 6LoWpan INSIDE Nanonote, it is main;y a curiosity for a TINY band of dedicated fans. NOt to a wider audience 2011-01-26 22:46 used once* 2011-01-26 22:46 I have no idea what it means. does it work or not? 2011-01-26 22:46 wolf I hope you are just pulling my chain. 2011-01-26 22:46 rjeffries: do you own a blutooth dongle? 2011-01-26 22:46 no I'm very serious 2011-01-26 22:47 some people confuse the main point of technology - whether it works or not 2011-01-26 22:47 that's all that matters 2011-01-26 22:47 O I do not have a bluetooth dongle 2011-01-26 22:47 :-) 2011-01-26 22:47 today ben-wpan doesn't work 2011-01-26 22:48 and besides, atBen (which I am EXCITED about) will probab;ly NOT stay firmly attached to the damn 8:10 slot. There's this concept called the laws of physics. 2011-01-26 22:48 once it starts to work for very strong tech people, we need to make it work easier for everybody, step by step 2011-01-26 22:49 wolf please don't treat me like an ideio. I know that. I think it is peachy you are doing this atben. But it is a baby step to and integated solution. dob't kid yourself. 2011-01-26 22:49 sure. I replied to 'proof of concept' 2011-01-26 22:49 your input to this community is mostly in words, so one must be allowed to give you feedback on that at least. 2011-01-26 22:50 s/ideio/idiot (but "ideio" does have a nice ring to it) 2011-01-26 22:50 your critique is normally spot on, but you can just bring out your real point more clearly, not with such fuzzy language 2011-01-26 22:51 wolf I am ready to say something rude but I will bit my tounge. I sepnt quite some time a few days ago with werner and a guy from Gewrmany figuring out 2011-01-26 22:51 I'm not a native speaker, but that's what I picked up here and there from writers and journalists :-) 2011-01-26 22:51 no abstract/fuzzy language 2011-01-26 22:51 how I might be able to design a PROOF OF CONCET 8:10 baord with IR on it for remote contril 2011-01-26 22:51 oh, is it working now? :-) 2011-01-26 22:52 :-) 2011-01-26 22:52 he will tell us later 2011-01-26 22:52 I like IR, i think led can do some intersting stuff 2011-01-26 22:52 I did NOt yet taje a VOW TO YOUR cHURCH OF cOPYLEFT, BUT (sorr 4 caps) 2011-01-26 22:53 if and when it works, I buy one from you and try it out, follow your documentation steps on how to make it work 2011-01-26 22:53 is you goal to make me go awy: juest say so, and consider it done 2011-01-26 22:53 not at all 2011-01-26 22:53 no no 2011-01-26 22:53 i have no dream to sell anything 2011-01-26 22:53 brb 2011-01-26 22:53 my feedback is "proof of concept" is meaningless 2011-01-26 22:53 that's all 2011-01-26 22:53 you can ignore it 2011-01-26 22:53 jesus I simply decided what he hell maybe I'll try to build a PCB from scratch for the  pure hell of it 2011-01-26 22:54 that's great! 2011-01-26 22:54 it will be hard though, I think 2011-01-26 22:55 right proving that Ben can be used with my ugly IR dongle to control the TC/Sattilite will not prove that it works. yup, totally meaningless 2011-01-26 22:55 don't understand you 2011-01-26 22:55 wolf: do you assume my IQ is below 100? of course if I pursue it it will be a bitvh 2011-01-26 22:55 my odds of sucess are low 2011-01-26 22:56 you want to build an IR board for the ben to control something? 2011-01-26 22:56 you guys are pissed because I never bought a Nanonte 2011-01-26 22:56 BFD. My friend has one, I can borrow if when I need it, 2011-01-26 22:56 I have not idea why I invest any time here at all. 2011-01-26 22:58 rjeffries: I gave you feedback on usage of 'proof of concept' 2011-01-26 22:58 it won't hurt but it also is not very clear to someone following the discussion 2011-01-26 22:59 I mean seriously - I don't know what 'proof of concept' means. 2011-01-26 22:59 maybe I'm stupid 2011-01-26 22:59 mostly if someone says "it's just proof of concept" I would understand that as "it's not working yet, don't bother me know I'm in the middle of it, come back later" 2011-01-26 23:00 if a person A says "that's proof of concept" about the work of person B, I would understand it as "that stuff doesn't work" 2011-01-26 23:01 whatever 2011-01-26 23:02 there he goes 2011-01-26 23:02 when I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_concept 2011-01-26 23:02 even the entire first 3 paragraphs/lines, I cannot answer a simple question "does it work or not?"