2011-01-24 02:02 roh: (6LoWPAN) i've only skimmed the RFC so far, but it doesn't look very complex. 2011-01-24 02:03 roh: (video) ah, interesting. downloading ... 2011-01-24 02:07 kristianpaul: (kernel driver) in the end, there will be an AT86RF231 kernel driver, probably with an internal high/low level division, the high level implementing device operations and the low level talking to the interface. e.g. one to SDIO, the other to USB. 2011-01-24 02:08 kristianpaul: linux-zigbee already has a kernel driver for AT86RF230. it's very simple, though, leaving a lot to software to implement (which per se isn't wrong, but ...). including timing-critical functions (which may be a problem) 2011-01-24 02:52 wpwrak: less stuff than zigbee, still quite some stack foobar 2011-01-24 03:00 roh: it seems that people are using much of the stack from contiki. but i haven't investigated how exactly things are done. 2011-01-24 03:01 havent looked at any code (yet) 2011-01-24 03:02 but it seems that there are not several modules and usb based modules avail 2011-01-24 03:02 e.g. from http://www.dresden-elektronik.de/shop/cat4_33.html 2011-01-24 03:03 or http://www.dresden-elektronik.de/shop/cat4_32.html 2011-01-24 03:05 yes, there's a bunch of hardware out there. of course, nothing tailored for the ben :) 2011-01-24 03:10 true. but maybe for the other end 2011-01-24 03:15 sure. an alternative for atusb, for example 2011-01-24 03:17 yes 2011-01-24 03:18 and it got an arm7 which should be strong enough to be able to run the stack and expose something like cdc-eth 2011-01-24 03:20 i suppose an AVR would be cpable enough already. but sure, the more power you have, the better :) 2011-01-24 03:20 dunno. question of optimized code/ram i guess 2011-01-24 03:21 my approach for atusb is simpler, though. just reuse as much of the driver as possible, don't write some complex standalone firmware 2011-01-24 03:21 seems like we need to reassemble packets with serious mtu (>1200 <1500byte) 2011-01-24 03:21 sure. but it also needs a linux pc on the other end then. or something like openwrt. 2011-01-24 03:21 who cares about non-linux ? ;-)) 2011-01-24 03:22 atleast i know nobody writing osx and win32 drivers;) 2011-01-24 03:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: move project name to central NAME variable http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/50bd38c 2011-01-24 05:56 xiangfu: how do I format and mount the data partition on my nano? 2011-01-24 05:57 wolfspraul: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Format_Data_Partition 2011-01-24 05:59 cool! 2011-01-24 06:01 wolfspraul: the fidelio.qi-hardware.com server become very slow recently. 2011-01-24 06:02 wolfspraul: check this build: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.all_packages-01212011-2200/ 2011-01-24 06:02 it's start at "21-Jan", until today, it still build, never happen before. 2011-01-24 06:02 ok, the wiki page works like a charm 2011-01-24 06:02 slowness on build host, hmm... 2011-01-24 06:02 s/build/building 2011-01-24 06:02 checking... 2011-01-24 06:03 in 'top' I see a process that looks stuck 2011-01-24 06:03 mconf 2011-01-24 06:04 3440 minutes running 2011-01-24 06:05 wolfspraul: yes. something wrong, it start at Jan18. 2011-01-24 06:05 wolfspraul: let me kill that. 2011-01-24 06:05 why don't you kill it? 2011-01-24 06:06 wolfspraul: don't notice it start at Jan18 until you mention it. 2011-01-24 06:08 xiangfu: do you have a command line music player you recommend on the nanonote? 2011-01-24 06:08 something like "play_this *.ogg" 2011-01-24 06:12 wolfspraul: no. 2011-01-24 06:13 ok :-) 2011-01-24 06:13 then I use gmu 2011-01-24 06:14 wolfspraul: mplayer *.ogg :) 2011-01-24 06:17 or mpg123/mpg321 :) 2011-01-24 06:18 may be with *curses frontend 2011-01-24 07:22 wolfspraul: i got bad news (for now) 2011-01-24 07:23 i didnt get my delivery of acryllic yet. gls fucked up big time 2011-01-24 07:23 it went underway on the 19th and got delivered somewhere on the 20th and i didnt get any notification from them. 2011-01-24 07:25 roh: no problem, relax. 2011-01-24 07:25 so first you need to find where it is now :-) 2011-01-24 07:25 doing that for 2 hours straight now 2011-01-24 07:26 even started calling people in oldenburg since there is a street with the same name and the surname they supposedly delivered it to 2011-01-24 07:26 problem just is: nobody with that name lives in this house 2011-01-24 07:30 wolfspraul: IIRC kyak did a mplayer version (in qi-openwrt) using a PATENTED stuff flag so it is useful for us. Maybe you could use it for mplayer *.ogg :) 2011-01-24 07:30 ah.. he already said that :P 2011-01-24 08:04 hmm, fedex are also a bit slow this time. the bad weather kicked back my parcel from digi-key by one day. should reach BUE tonight, then one day customs, delivery wednesday. that much about cleverly using the weekend. well, nothing too urgent in there.. 2011-01-24 10:16 What's the right temperature to remove a NAND chip from a.. let said nanonote board :-) 2011-01-24 10:16 planning to get a solder station for iron and air 2011-01-24 10:18 more heat = better :-) 2011-01-24 10:19 k 2011-01-24 10:19 the problem is not the temperature per se but to maintain a high enough temperature uniformly in the area of interest 2011-01-24 10:20 factors that enter then are heat capacity of the elements you're heating, thermal transfer away from the area (e.g., ground planes), and of course also how continuous you can keep on heating 2011-01-24 10:20 yeah, i was told about when using hot air iron, to "fly" around the interested area in circles 2011-01-24 10:21 i've never lifted something as big as a nand with hot air. but maybe that's just my station that's not good enough. 2011-01-24 10:22 i use hot air for smaller areas, though. e.g., to solder the crystal 2011-01-24 10:22 how do you usually remove a nand chip then? 2011-01-24 10:23 con la plancha? :-) 2011-01-24 10:28 Got my answer http://vimeo.com/11699576 2011-01-24 10:30 hmm may be not the same method because ben board size.. but 2011-01-24 10:30 (how do i remove) well, so far, i haven't ;-) 2011-01-24 10:30 ah 2011-01-24 10:31 well, for the 16GB nand upgrade ;-) 2011-01-24 10:31 if i did try, they i would probably use the iron and if that didn't work, the chipquick thing. the latter it very dirty, but works well. 2011-01-24 10:32 it uses a special type of solder that has a very high thermal capacity and stays molten for several seconds. so you spread it around all the contacts, melt it, and then you can lift off the component. then clean the mess off the board ... 2011-01-24 10:34 how you call solderwick in spanish there in argentina? 2011-01-24 10:39 cinta para desoldar, malla desoldante 2011-01-24 10:40 in english, desoldering braid / wick 2011-01-24 10:40 hmm 2011-01-24 10:40 i'll source, i had problem to ge tunderstood last time i asked 2011-01-24 10:40 ;-)) 2011-01-24 10:41 soon, i'll try 473-1060-ND and 473-1061-ND from digi-key 2011-01-24 10:41 they're very narrow, narrower than the braid i can easily find there 2011-01-24 10:42 wow is cheap 2011-01-24 10:42 with small component a regular-size braid (2 mm) is inconvenient, because it sticks to areas you're not working on. so you have to heat up a lot of things just to get the braid unstuck. 2011-01-24 17:04 ah, is called mecha 2011-01-24 17:18 a 10 meters high humanoid robot? 2011-01-24 17:20 kristianpaul: i have one that simply says "Solder-Wick" and "INDUSTRIA ARGENTINA" ;-) 2011-01-24 17:22 :( 2011-01-24 17:22 kristianpaul: (that one is medium quality. the best i have so far is imported from japan, "goot" brand. i'm vary curious about the quality of the ones from digi-key) 2011-01-24 17:24 wpwrak: tiny ones are important, i think i'll assist some people on hard disk repair, i need learn how all this stuff work togethe 2011-01-24 17:24 tiny <- solder-wick 2011-01-24 17:25 s/tiny/narrow 2011-01-24 17:25 :) 2011-01-24 17:25 hard disks should be fun :) 2011-01-24 18:17 kristianpaul: i looked at the desoldering video. oh dear. that's quite brutish. the approach isn't too bad - the chipquick approach is the same. but the amount of time he's spending with the soldering iron is just scary. 2011-01-24 18:19 kristianpaul: possible reasons: 1) he's not adding flux. there's some in the solder, but with smt, you're in a world of pain without extra flux. 2) the iron is probably too cold. better to do things hot and quick than cool but spending minutes fighting - you're likely to do more damage in the 2nd case. 2011-01-24 18:21 kristianpaul: with the chipquick solder, you'd also have less trouble heating the entire row. i wouldn't make a habit of using it, but it can be helpful from time to time. 2011-01-24 18:27 zrafa: i found the paper you recommended. the print looks promising. there are a few small flaws, but i'm not sure if they're the paper's fault. let's see how the transfer goes. (need to fix my machine first. the relay is finally dying.) 2011-01-24 18:52 wpwrak: ha , great :).. We used the iron for the toner transfer using the amount of minutes suggested for the ledtoy 2011-01-24 19:13 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370237549883 2011-01-24 19:14 seems like you get everything on ebay these days 2011-01-24 19:17 steve|m: nice :) that should be fun to have for examining pcbs 2011-01-24 19:18 zrafa: the one with tha lternative paper is now cooling. the one with hp paper is running though the machine. soon i'll have pictures. 2011-01-24 19:18 wpwrak: (examining pcbs) yes, that's what I was thinking too :) 2011-01-24 19:23 steve|m: needs a digital sensor, though. 2011-01-24 19:23 film is just boring. (although admittely wonderfully precise) 2011-01-24 19:27 hmm.. a Kodak-RVG 6000 seems to start at 600$ 2011-01-24 19:27 here we go, xray for about USD 1100. not too bad for argentina. http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-105003528-rx-equipo-rayos-dental-odontologico-2-anos-gtia-odontotienda-_JM 2011-01-24 19:27 wpwrak: http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/113840144/KODAK_RVG_6000_DIGITAL_X_RAY.html 2011-01-24 19:30 don't seem to have it it on "our ebay" :-( 2011-01-24 19:31 oh well.. there are just so many awesome toys out there.. 2011-01-24 19:59 wolfspraul, adamw_, roh: the samples will take a little longer. with the footprint issues that still needed resolving, i couldn't start before yesterday afternoon, and i've been busy with other stuff most of today. so hopefully, i'll finish during wednesday. 2011-01-24 20:01 what is a day? 2011-01-24 20:01 :-) 2011-01-24 20:01 roh: also, the mechanical sample won't be perfect. my boards shift a little when milling, which particularly affects atusb in an uneven way. so one side gets a little too wide and the other too short. i think the pcb maker will add their own flaws, so there's probably no use in optimizing my process down to the last micron. 2011-01-24 20:03 roh: atben works better, so there, i think i'll have tolerances < 100 um. 2011-01-24 20:04 wpwrak, i haven't asked maker for how they cut edge. 2011-01-24 20:04 roh: (the worst tolerance in atusb is a bit more than 200 um for now. may change a bit after etching.) 2011-01-24 20:04 adamw_: just tell them it has to be very precise ;-) microsd tolerances 2011-01-24 20:07 adamw_: about 0.1 mm tolerance are probably okay. but more would be trouble. i also made atusb with relatively narrow margins. after all, if we have a process that can produce atben, they'll be able to handle atusb too :) 2011-01-24 20:08 wolfspraul: hah, three days ! of course, still better than the usual "add one, multiply with two, then convert to the next higher unit" rule. that would be 2 days -> 6 weeks :) 2011-01-24 20:23 lol http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.co/MCO-16653901-rayos-x-dental-portatil--_JM price 1000usd too 2011-01-24 20:32 wpwrak: (video) a pickup tool and some hot air + flux will help a lot too 2011-01-24 20:36 oh, chipquick is a kit 2011-01-24 20:38 kristianpaul: yeah, contains all you need. the important thing is the special solder. all the rest is stuff you probably have already. 2011-01-24 20:43 is like magic that solder 2011-01-24 20:43 very usefull 2011-01-24 20:44 yeah. it's quite nice to have when you need it :) 2011-01-24 21:40 zrafa: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ 2011-01-24 21:40 zrafa: HP paper on the left, the other paper on the right. 2011-01-24 21:41 zrafa: pretty good. it blurs a bit more but in return covers up some fine cracks. 2011-01-24 21:42 color: red = must be fixed. orange = should be fixed. yellow = imperfect but harmless. 2011-01-24 21:43 ah, missed two on the HP side. well, only oranges :) 2011-01-24 21:44 How thin is the thinner path? 2011-01-24 21:44 I wonder if i can plot it.. 2011-01-24 21:45 How do you get the colored squares?? 2011-01-24 21:45 there, updated 2011-01-24 21:45 gimp :) 2011-01-24 21:45 ah, you ! 2011-01-24 21:45 For a moment i tought was wpwrak/ocr ;-) 2011-01-24 21:46 brushes, "square (10x10) blur", pencil, scale 5, opacity 50% 2011-01-24 21:46 yup. human ocr :) 2011-01-24 21:46 thinner path .. you mean the trace width ? 2011-01-24 21:46 yes that one 2011-01-24 21:46 s/thinner path/trace width 2011-01-24 21:46 8 mil 2011-01-24 21:50 no no, argg i dont get well express 2011-01-24 21:50 thickness ! 2011-01-24 21:50 is that right word for this topic? 2011-01-24 21:51 path thickness 2011-01-24 21:51 trace * 2011-01-24 21:51 width, thickness, it's all the same 2011-01-24 21:52 or do you mean in the Z direction ? 2011-01-24 21:52 :S 2011-01-24 21:53 X and Y 2011-01-24 21:54 8 mil then :) 2011-01-24 21:54 My tought was, i wonder if i can plot it using a specialized pen and my current "cnc" 2011-01-24 21:54 but thats the bigger? 2011-01-24 21:58 bigger traces are 10 mil, 20 mil, and 58 mil for the feed line 2011-01-24 21:58 you don't see much of the 20 mil trace, though. i use it to tweak the shape of the feed line 2011-01-24 21:59 (plotter) i would just use a laser printer. they're cheap and very accurate :) 2011-01-24 22:00 sure 2011-01-24 22:00 :-) 2011-01-24 22:01 I just wanted to avoid adional steps on transfer 2011-01-24 22:01 I have a laser printer (Samsung), 2011-01-24 22:20 wpwrak: ah nice 2011-01-24 22:21 wpwrak: so it is useful right? (alternative paper) 2011-01-24 22:22 yeah, looks good. it's not as precise as the hp paper, but i think it's good enough for my 8 mil process. i could probably even do 7 mil, maybe 6 mil. 2011-01-24 22:22 it has some issue with covering area, though. not sure yet, there they come from. 2011-01-24 22:23 e.g., here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/back-alt-paper.jpg 2011-01-24 22:24 vs. here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/back-hp-paper.jpg