2011-01-22 05:29 <qi-bot> [commit] David Kühling: plplot: fix package generation errors (created copies of libs instead of links) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e75033d
2011-01-22 06:39 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: gottet:Tetris clone written in Qt, adapted for Ben http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/325a43c
2011-01-22 06:56 <qi-bot> [commit] David Kühling: plplot: fix plplot package to include _all_ libraries that ship with plplot http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c32c234
2011-01-22 07:28 <qi-bot> [commit] David Kühling: plplot: mark plplot-python as broken and explain why that is so. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/31e8e5b
2011-01-22 08:36 <wpwrak> ah, new feature at fedex: you can now pick the time zone relative to which the scans times are shown. e.g., Jan 21, 2011 8:08 PM Shipment information sent to FedEx
2011-01-22 08:36 <wpwrak> now let's try something easy, "origin" time zone. that would be the US, fedex home turf. undefined NaN, NaN NaN:NaN AM Shipment information sent to FedEx
2011-01-22 08:37 <wpwrak> very interesting. at least we know it's morning there ;-)
2011-01-22 09:46 <kristianpaul> nice tftpclient works with a simple string, lets try something bigger
2011-01-22 09:48 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: stdpass.fpd: enlarged 0402 and 0603 footprint http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e297690
2011-01-22 09:48 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: stdpass.fpd: set outline clearance (courtyard) to 0.15/0.25 mm of IPC-7351B http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/7c62277
2011-01-22 10:44 <roh> wpwrak: oh.. i see you had fun with footprints
2011-01-22 10:45 <roh> nice mail
2011-01-22 10:47 <wpwrak> still having more fun. the qfns still lurk ...
2011-01-22 10:47 <roh> :)
2011-01-22 10:48 <roh> see it that way: anything you do there, lots of embedded hackers will profit from
2011-01-22 10:48 <wpwrak> the rules adam suggested are a bit more sophisticated than the virtual shrug you get from most data sheets, but if you look at NXP's material, then you see that there's quite a lot more to them
2011-01-22 10:49 <roh> the qi-hw 'development' of getting a toolchain and data to build hw from ideas is a really important step in my opinion. we need an alternative to eagle for the community.
2011-01-22 10:49 <wpwrak> yeah. the next step is then a mass-produced cheap mill for making pcbs :)
2011-01-22 10:49 <roh> most importantly: getting all these rules being developed real-world tested
2011-01-22 10:49 <wpwrak> and then, pick and place :)
2011-01-22 10:50 <wpwrak> yup. the real-world tests are the scary part :)
2011-01-22 10:50 <roh> wpwrak: hehe... true. i'd like to own a picknplace machine... just need.. more space first
2011-01-22 10:50 <roh> but i would be glad to have something which generates proper layouts from completely foss tools
2011-01-22 10:51 <wpwrak> for p&p, i wonder if one couldn't make a machine that just picks components from a high-density loose container, such as a pill box or my vial tray. so you'd de-tape first, and then the p&p would figure out how to get the components out and oriented
2011-01-22 10:51 <roh> i dont need to manufacture all parts myself. i would be happy with having the possibility to order proper pcbs without using the vendor tools of the service company
2011-01-22 10:51 <wpwrak> (generates proper layouts) you mean design or produce (i.e., make boards) ?
2011-01-22 10:52 <roh> eh. yes
2011-01-22 10:52 <wpwrak> oh, that should be fine. we have nice gerbers :) we're not the first ones to use kicad :)
2011-01-22 10:53 <roh> true. but there is a lot of difference between a tool spitting out 'something you can work with' or something 'you can mass produce' with a serious yield
2011-01-22 10:53 <roh> thats where your tolerances make a big difference
2011-01-22 10:54 <wpwrak> ah yes, that's true
2011-01-22 10:55 <kristianpaul> (yeah. the next step is then a mass-produced cheap mill for making pcbs) wow, really? :-)
2011-01-22 10:55 <roh> these yamaha picknplace machiens are funny to watch
2011-01-22 10:55 <roh> kristianpaul: no. milling is nice for prototypes. completely crap for anything automated or mass-produced
2011-01-22 10:55 <kristianpaul> agree
2011-01-22 10:56 <roh> you by far cannot reach the details needed to live without rework. also running-costs are quite high for all rapid prototyping technologies
2011-01-22 10:57 <roh> milling is fine for 'simple' stuff.. werner is already kicking the limits of home-brewn pcb witj the qfn... but these were etched and toner-transfered, not milled, right?
2011-01-22 10:57 <wpwrak> roh: (milling) i mean for cutting/drilling the boards. i'd still use etching for the layout.
2011-01-22 10:57 <roh> atben/atusb boards
2011-01-22 10:57 <roh> i see.
2011-01-22 10:58 <wpwrak> roh: with HCl+H2O2, you basically have no waste acid to dispose, because the volume is so small. just put it outside, let the water evaporate, then throw away the solids.
2011-01-22 10:58 <wpwrak> well, or collect them, if you want
2011-01-22 10:58 <roh> wpwrak: mmh..  still not good for me. i dont have any space left for a chemics lab stm
2011-01-22 10:59 <roh> eh atm
2011-01-22 10:59 <wpwrak> you need about 50x50 cm, maybe less. some large plastic basic to work inside, so that things don't spill outside
2011-01-22 11:00 <roh> wpwrak: we currently already host a small biolab... could use a second floor at the lab
2011-01-22 11:00 <wpwrak> then i have one of the large low glass forms used for the oven inside, again to contain spills. this one is expected to get spills from time to time.
2011-01-22 11:01 <roh> and the rooms with all the dirt(saw, milling, turning dust) arent a good fit for chemicals
2011-01-22 11:01 <wpwrak> ah .. biolab sounds like a good excuse for not cleaning. i have to remember this ;-))
2011-01-22 11:01 <wpwrak> the chemistry is quite simple
2011-01-22 11:01 <roh> naah. real biolab. a friend of ours experiments with gen-foo
2011-01-22 11:01 <roh> electrophoresis and such
2011-01-22 11:02 <wpwrak> (gen-foo) that's what i'd say, too. breeding extra-efficiently-gnat-killing spiders :)
2011-01-22 11:03 <wpwrak> (chem) the main problem are the corrosive vapours. already if you keep a bottle of HCl inside, some will escape and look for a victim
2011-01-22 11:03 <roh> wishes for _much_ more space including funding and doing some proper seperation of the dirt problem
2011-01-22 11:03 <wpwrak> (chem) then prepared acid also produces corrosive fumes
2011-01-22 11:03 <roh> wpwrak: true. i know corrosion in all forms now.
2011-01-22 11:03 <wpwrak> if you have a balcony, that would be the place to put all these things
2011-01-22 11:03 <roh> when playing with kilograms of batteries.... one sees nasty things
2011-01-22 11:04 <roh> ever held about 4.5kg of lithium?
2011-01-22 11:04 <wpwrak> or i have a little green box on the terrace ... with contents that aren't all that "green" ;-)
2011-01-22 11:04 <wpwrak> urgh
2011-01-22 11:04 <wpwrak> real men don't just hold it. they LICK it ;-)
2011-01-22 11:05 <roh> no balcony... also that wouldnt work well.. its berlin so outside temperatures are about 4°C atm. and can be between -20°C and +35°C in the shadow easily over the year
2011-01-22 11:05 <wpwrak> sounds okay
2011-01-22 11:05 <roh> real lab would mean having a second fridge with labels and the chemicals in there
2011-01-22 11:05 <wpwrak> don't know at what point HCL freezes, though
2011-01-22 11:06 <roh> not having the vodka bottle for drinking right next to a box with stuff i know it is 'mutagen'
2011-01-22 11:06 <wpwrak> sure. real lab. but you can get things done with a lot less
2011-01-22 11:06 <wpwrak> ;-)
2011-01-22 11:06 <roh> true. but i want that warm fuzzy feelting back
2011-01-22 11:07 <wpwrak> all my nasty chemicals vanish quite easily when necessary
2011-01-22 11:07 <roh> ever had a battery acid spill to clean up?
2011-01-22 11:08 <wpwrak> the workspace is a box with drawer. normally sits in the kitchen, for easy access to water, but when the kitchen has to be more habitable, i carry it over to the mech lab
2011-01-22 11:08 <wpwrak> yes, in a car
2011-01-22 11:08 <wpwrak> eventually, the car suffered structural failure, but at a completely different place
2011-01-22 11:09 <roh> i was cleaning the table and noticed some clean liquid
2011-01-22 11:09 <wpwrak> naw, what i'm saying is that the HCl+H2O2 process is ideal for home use because it's so efficient and produces little waste
2011-01-22 11:09 <roh> when it started doing things with the piece of cloth i was using i washed my hands and started using gloves and one-way towels
2011-01-22 11:10 <roh> ok. i will come back to that when i get annoyed doing outline milling ;)
2011-01-22 11:10 <roh> s/outline/isolation
2011-01-22 11:10 <wpwrak> you just have to make sure the vapours don't have too much time to mess up things. so keep the HCl outdoors and unused acid as well. (well, you could collect it, but that seems somewhat pointless)
2011-01-22 11:11 <wpwrak> (acid surprise) nice ;-)
2011-01-22 11:11 <roh> yeah. i am quite lucky that all MY batteries are lithium based or encapsuled lead-gel. no single one with liquid stuff in it.. thats all the motorcycle crews stuff
2011-01-22 11:12 <roh> they are also removing the acid now. replacing their batteries with lifepo4.. helps reducing weight of the cacle
2011-01-22 11:12 <roh> s/cacle/cylce
2011-01-22 11:13 <roh> some even remove the generator (lichtmaschine) to reduce the weight. lifepo4 has enough energy to run the electronics for regular trips (recharing at home)
2011-01-22 11:13 <roh> crazy stuff
2011-01-22 11:14 <wpwrak> :) maybe search the bins of project orion for some more efficient power sources
2011-01-22 11:15 <roh> i think our issue is storing and transporting energy. converting them i see as widely solved issue
2011-01-22 11:26 <wpwrak> hence project orion :)
2011-01-22 13:01 <rjeffries> werner are you here?
2011-01-22 13:09 <wpwrak> eating .. can't type much, but i can read what you write
2011-01-22 13:10 <rjeffries> your priorites (eating over hacking) sure are screwed up. <g>
2011-01-22 13:10 <rjeffries> anyhow
2011-01-22 13:12 <rjeffries> what would be the technical challenge to a card that plug into 8:10 (gag) slot on Ben, that has send and recieve LEDs to control a TV etc?
2011-01-22 13:16 <rjeffries> there are chips that decode RC5/RC6 I am guessing that this would be sorta ugly but that's OK
2011-01-22 13:17 <rjeffries> with such a chip, Ben read  and writes a serial data stream to the remoote control dongle
2011-01-22 13:18 <rjeffries> not sure if BEN can also supply enough power however
2011-01-22 13:18 <wpwrak> mmh, you could use a chip that just detects the carrier
2011-01-22 13:18 <wpwrak> modulation is usually/always? OOK
2011-01-22 13:19 <rjeffries> not sure I will check that
2011-01-22 13:19 <rjeffries> a randow resource: http://hackaday.com/2008/10/30/how-to-usb-remote-control-receiver/
2011-01-22 13:19 <rjeffries> it is however receive only
2011-01-22 13:21 <rjeffries> should we ever design Ya Nanonote and can make at least small mods to case, having IR LEDS for remote control (and other) uses would mean
2011-01-22 13:22 <rjeffries> Ben could be hacked to serve as a very nice smart remote. Those things are pricey, some well more than price of Ben.
2011-01-22 13:22 <wpwrak> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1967024&k=ir
2011-01-22 13:22 <rjeffries> s/randow/random
2011-01-22 13:24 <rjeffries> thanks for that
2011-01-22 13:25 <wpwrak> should be a nice beginner's project :) did something like this ~5 years ago, with a PIC. the ben should be more than sufficient
2011-01-22 13:33 <rjeffries> does Ben have enough power to spare?
2011-01-22 13:33 <wpwrak> for sending, you probably just need an IR LED. use SD clock for carrier
2011-01-22 13:33 <wpwrak> yeah. LEDs draw ~20 mA. you can get > 100, I think
2011-01-22 13:40 <rjeffries> where does one find your stuff? http://projects.qi-hardware does not seem to have entry for atben
2011-01-22 13:41 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/
2011-01-22 13:41 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/
2011-01-22 13:41 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-counterweight/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-scans/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/cae-tools/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/eda-tools/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/f32xbase/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/
2011-01-22 13:42 <wpwrak> and las but not least http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/ :)
2011-01-22 13:43 <wpwrak> i think that's all i have there
2011-01-22 13:47 <rjeffries> thanks
2011-01-22 13:47 <rjeffries> I did look at wernermisc
2011-01-22 13:50 <rjeffries> dumb question: where would I find PDF of say schematic for atben?
2011-01-22 13:50 <wpwrak> right here http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/atben/pdf_atben.pdf
2011-01-22 13:51 <wpwrak> here's more: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/
2011-01-22 14:01 <rjeffries> thanks wpwrak found and have skimmed master/TODO
2011-01-22 14:02 <wpwrak> master/ ... where's that ?
2011-01-22 14:03 <wpwrak> ah, you mean ben-wpan/TODO
2011-01-22 14:03 <wpwrak> it's a bit obsolete. don't even remember what has changed since
2011-01-22 14:03 <wpwrak> hmm. a lot :)
2011-01-22 14:05 <rjeffries> not a biggie just getting 30K foot overview
2011-01-22 14:06 <rjeffries> are you the one who made the brakout board for th 8:10 slot?
2011-01-22 14:06 <wpwrak> it's the state of some 4 months ago
2011-01-22 14:06 <rjeffries> s/brakout/breakout/
2011-01-22 14:07 <wpwrak> the original idea and design is from Rikard Lindstrom
2011-01-22 14:07 <wpwrak> (Ornotermes)
2011-01-22 14:07 <rjeffries> ah
2011-01-22 14:09 <wpwrak> http://slashhome.se/p/uSD_breakout/
2011-01-22 14:09 <wpwrak> i think it was in the community news a while ago
2011-01-22 14:09 <rjeffries> thanks. how did you read my mind? that is spooky
2011-01-22 14:10 <wpwrak> ;-))
2011-01-22 14:10 <steve|m> wpwrak: hehe, reminds me of something I did for testing some while back: http://www.steve-m.de/steve/gallerie/sdcarddummy/CIMG9137
2011-01-22 14:13 <kristianpaul> PIC !
2011-01-22 14:13 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-01-22 14:14 <steve|m> attiny! msp430! :P
2011-01-22 14:15 <wpwrak> steve|m: nice :) didn't know you could do all this without even etching
2011-01-22 14:15 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yeah, i know ... sins of the youth ...
2011-01-22 14:20 <kristianpaul> steve|m: cool, 8:10 card
2011-01-22 14:21 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: looks like a 9:24 card to me :)
2011-01-22 14:21 <kristianpaul> :p
2011-01-22 14:21 <kristianpaul> yes
2011-01-22 15:10 <rjeffries> steve|m so you do some MSP430 hacking? their Launchpad for $4.30 was irresistable for me. n=3
2011-01-22 15:12 <rjeffries> wpwrak waht frequency is the clock that come out the 8:10 connector
2011-01-22 15:13 <steve|m> rjeffries: well, I got 2 launchpads some weeks back and definitely will do something with them.. I want to build a ultra low-power epaper clock with a MSP430 and the display of a motorola F3
2011-01-22 15:14 <steve|m> I was quite amazed, since everything worked out of the box.. and the "mspdebug" tool is awesome
2011-01-22 15:15 <steve|m> 2KB flash isn't that much, though
2011-01-22 15:17 <rjeffries> steve|m yes, that MSP430 Launchpad kit is very nice. TI must be subsiding it $10 or $15 a pop, just to capture new designs. Great for the hobby crowd
2011-01-22 15:17 <rjeffries> steve where are you located
2011-01-22 15:18 <steve|m> near FRA/germany
2011-01-22 15:18 <roh> rjeffries: msp430 community is strong but small i think
2011-01-22 15:18 <roh> also not all variants are supported by gcc yet i think
2011-01-22 15:19 <steve|m> but the "support" mostly is register definitions which can be easily added
2011-01-22 15:20 <roh> sure. still a lot of people are quite resistant to hacking up a working compiler before doing a project ;)
2011-01-22 15:21 <steve|m> http://losinggeneration.homelinux.org/2010/07/02/msp430-launchpad-on-linux/ <- basically that's what I've done so far + a blinking led ;)
2011-01-22 15:22 <steve|m> ah, no.. it was http://hackaday.com/2010/08/11/how-to-launchpad-programming-with-linux/ actually
2011-01-22 15:24 <steve|m> roh: and of course, the TIUSB chip they use as usb interface has a 8051 core :P
2011-01-22 15:35 <roh> hrr
2011-01-22 15:48 <steve|m> oh, cool.. the girltech im-me is available at amazon UK :)
2011-01-22 15:49 <steve|m> http://ossmann.blogspot.com/2010/03/16-pocket-spectrum-analyzer.html
2011-01-22 15:50 <wpwrak> rjeffries: you can program the clock dividers. you can probably set it within a wide range, particularly if you're not afraid of changing the system's main clock :)
2011-01-22 15:52 <rjeffries> wprak thx for clock info. you are NOT using theclick from BEN on atben correct? (you had to add  xtal?)
2011-01-22 15:55 <wpwrak> yeah. i tried to use it, but it turned out to have slight imperfections that made it not work properly for atben.
2011-01-22 15:55 <wpwrak> see here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tst-cw/
2011-01-22 15:56 <wpwrak> vs. here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/redesign-xtal/
2011-01-22 15:56 <viric> steve|m: what is that?
2011-01-22 16:00 <steve|m> viric: a girl-toy with a TI CC1110F32
2011-01-22 16:00 <steve|m> hacked to be a spectrum analyzer ;)
2011-01-22 16:00 <viric> a girl toy?
2011-01-22 16:00 <viric> there the link fails, for the ImMe
2011-01-22 16:01 <steve|m> viric: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_P0xofdCgmno/S5_9oOV-qwI/AAAAAAAAAYA/hIFsZxE3EfY/s1600-h/ultrawide.jpeg isn't it beautiful? :P
2011-01-22 16:02 <viric> yes, good program
2011-01-22 16:18 <wpwrak> rjeffries: and if all else fails, you could also generate the ~38 kHz carrier also with software. less efficient, but it'll work.
2011-01-22 16:28 <roh> nice hack. unfortunately the devices aren't avail in .de
2011-01-22 16:31 <steve|m> roh: yeah, only amazon.co.uk for 9.95 pound + 9,95 for shipping, which is something like 23¬ currently
2011-01-22 16:32 <steve|m> basically you get 2 radios - it comes with an usb stick
2011-01-22 16:33 <roh> hm... i never ordered at amazon
2011-01-22 16:34 <roh> does that work with a german amazon account?
2011-01-22 16:34 <steve|m> sure.. but needs a credit card for payment
2011-01-22 16:36 <roh> nih
2011-01-22 16:39 <steve|m> roh: you want one? there's a pack of 2 for £17.84, so (price + 3,90 dhl shipping to you) / 2 would be something like 17,95¬
2011-01-22 16:40 <roh> for something like 10Euro, sure
2011-01-22 16:40 <steve|m> yeah, true.. it's much cheaper in the US
2011-01-22 16:40 <roh> i am just hesitant to waste too much time getting weird shit sent from 'out of europe'. eats a lot of time and money usually
2011-01-22 16:44 <steve|m> 17,95 would be the price for one actually
2011-01-22 16:45 <roh> uh. i see.
2011-01-22 16:45 <roh> well.. 20E is also ok for some new toy
2011-01-22 16:48 <steve|m> roh: okay, then I'll order a double-pack
2011-01-22 16:48 <roh> :)
2011-01-22 17:43 <kristianpaul> damit ttcp gives and nicelly RX Fifo overflow...
2011-01-22 17:44 <kristianpaul> lekernel: when no rtems support, how do you tested minimac and basic tcp/ip comunication on mm1?
2011-01-22 17:44 <kristianpaul> s/and/a
2011-01-22 17:49 <lekernel> what's ttcp?
2011-01-22 17:49 <kristianpaul> nice net tool for measuring troughtput
2011-01-22 17:50 <kristianpaul> So far my tests shows that there is a problem with tcp replies from rtems...
2011-01-22 17:51 <kristianpaul> in wich tftpd is not affected as it just pull? files from the indicated server
2011-01-22 17:51 <lekernel> there are tons of problems with ethernet on rtems
2011-01-22 17:51 <kristianpaul> but when i try the httpd or telnet examples, oh dear..
2011-01-22 17:51 <lekernel> dunno. works for me ~8% of the time
2011-01-22 17:52 <lekernel> 80%
2011-01-22 17:52 <kristianpaul> yeah i'm just realizing it now ;-)
2011-01-22 17:52 <kristianpaul> bah
2011-01-22 17:52 <lekernel> I have no time, really
2011-01-22 17:52 <kristianpaul> jeje
2011-01-22 17:52 <kristianpaul> sure
2011-01-22 17:52 <lekernel> Fallenou was supposed to fix it, but he didn't
2011-01-22 17:53 <kristianpaul> ok, i'll check what seems to be the problem, i really need ethernet for my tests
2011-01-22 17:53 <kristianpaul> suscribes ro rtems mail list :-)
2011-01-22 17:56 <kristianpaul> oh this is qi :p
2011-01-22 18:02 <larsc> this is SPARTA(N)!
2011-01-22 18:03 <wpwrak> and packet seem to be jumping off the FIFO well enough ... :)
2011-01-22 18:05 <lekernel> kristianpaul: please ask fallenou about network problems
2011-01-22 18:05 <kristianpaul> lekernel: i did on irc yday, but no reply so far..
2011-01-22 18:05 <lekernel> he was paid for that
2011-01-22 18:05 <kristianpaul> I think i'll better ask on ml
2011-01-22 18:06 <kristianpaul> ah yes,, gsoc stundents !!
2011-01-22 18:06 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-01-22 18:07 <lekernel> yeah, and I didn't test his stuff well enough. if i ever participate in gsoc again, i'll have a totalitarian policy about bugs and stability
2011-01-22 18:08 <wpwrak> all those executions at dawn ...
2011-01-22 18:08 <lekernel> i.e. you won't pass until your code is rock solid under the worst possible conditions of stress
2011-01-22 18:10 <kristianpaul> stress ethernet !! this is_ real_time_ so  i want the 10MBps troughput ;-)
2011-01-22 18:11 <wpwrak> roh: do Atmel publish footprints anywhere ? all i see are package definitions
2011-01-22 18:15 <wpwrak> lekernel: reminds me of the time when i worked at IBM research. back then, IBM still liked token ring a lot more than anything else. we had just gotten new workstations. they had as a brand-new feature ... ethernet. i did a ping -f on a colleague's station. the box crashed to hard even the reset button didn't work ;-)) so you see, even major products from reputable companies aren't necessarily tested all that well.
2011-01-22 18:15 <lekernel> unfortunately, I did test the thing with ping -f
2011-01-22 18:16 <lekernel> it works
2011-01-22 18:16 <lekernel> but large packets do a lot more damage
2011-01-22 18:17 <lekernel> it's actually so crappy that transferring a few megabytes over FTP often crashes it
2011-01-22 18:18 <lekernel> as long as you have big packets, the bugs manifest themselves
2011-01-22 18:19 <wpwrak> that's nasty
2011-01-22 18:19 <kristianpaul> no icmp works!!, not fully tcp :/
2011-01-22 18:20 <kristianpaul> ah is packet size a problem..
2011-01-22 18:20 <kristianpaul> i'll try hping later
2011-01-22 18:20 <wpwrak> where does rtem's tcp/ip stack actually come from ? diy ?
2011-01-22 18:20 <kristianpaul> bsd
2011-01-22 18:21 <kristianpaul> or bsd-like..
2011-01-22 18:21 <roh> wl
2011-01-22 18:21 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: ping -s  for the packet size
2011-01-22 18:21 <kristianpaul> wl?
2011-01-22 18:21 <roh> wpwrak: dunno. they got a lot of pdfs online
2011-01-22 18:21 <wpwrak> roh: ;-))
2011-01-22 18:21 <wpwrak> roh: i've been sifting through that haystack for a while ... but haven't spotted any needles yet :)
2011-01-22 18:22 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: yeah sure, but i dont transmit valuable data on icmp,  i need some tcp ack,rst,syn stress tests :-) hping to rescue !
2011-01-22 18:24 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: the losses probably occur even if the data isn't valuable ... :)
2011-01-22 18:24 <kristianpaul> i also had bad luck trying make a session with a socket,  used netcat, but timeout popup first, i'll re check but is almost same behavior than in telnet, httpd, ...
2011-01-22 18:25 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: guess you have to fix that ethernet first
2011-01-22 18:25 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: may be UDP it is fast i used it for VPN at work
2011-01-22 18:25 <kristianpaul> it seems
2011-01-22 18:25 <kristianpaul> I just make sure what is the problem..
2011-01-22 18:25 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: if it's a packet size problem, you could try to lower the MTU
2011-01-22 18:25 <kristianpaul> apart from the TX FIFO thign :\
2011-01-22 18:26 <kristianpaul> hmm i dint ought on MTU, thanks for poiting !
2011-01-22 18:26 <kristianpaul> s/ought/tought
2011-01-22 18:27 <wpwrak> there ought to be a switch somewhere for changing the MSS, too. that would be less intrusive. but PMTU discovery may do a good enough job if you tweak the MTU. just don't make it too small
2011-01-22 18:29 <kristianpaul> dammm Minimac RX FIFO overflow!
2011-01-22 18:29 <kristianpaul> argg !
2011-01-22 18:29 <roh> heeeh. http://forum.atmel.com/showthread.php?t=1142
2011-01-22 18:29 <kristianpaul> now i can realize this is randon, httpd sample was okay last time i tried :-|
2011-01-22 18:30 <wpwrak> roh: @$*#%!
2011-01-22 18:31 <roh> wpwrak: what about using the footprints you have now and touch them only if neccessary?
2011-01-22 18:31 <wpwrak> roh: i think i'd drive adam nuts with these :)
2011-01-22 18:32 <wpwrak> roh: i found some weird ones from wolfson. they have interesting solder paste patterns, star-shaped. http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/documents/uploads/misc/en/WAN0118.pdf
2011-01-22 18:32 <roh> well.. in the end we cant have support for all possibilities. and to be fair, i dont think any vendor does. my bet is that most just have one footprint for every 'string' like 'qfn84' and use that for all chips with the same 'string'
2011-01-22 18:33 <wpwrak> roh: oh, you ain't seen nothing yet ;-)
2011-01-22 18:34 <wpwrak> roh: NXP alone have about three variants
2011-01-22 18:34 <wpwrak> roh: intersil have 4 (for QFN32) at last count
2011-01-22 18:35 <wpwrak> roh: (3 NXP variants) for QFN28 and QFN32 each
2011-01-22 18:35 <kristianpaul> Is all this discuss about NXP because a foot print-fix recomendation from Adam btw?
2011-01-22 18:35 <wpwrak> roh: some of them have very detailed land patterns. alas, the ones that are similar to what i need don't
2011-01-22 18:36 <roh> wpwrak: the question is: do they fail when soldering in reality?
2011-01-22 18:36 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yeah. they don't resonate well with the material i found
2011-01-22 18:36 <roh> i mean... are you saying we cant have one 'qfn32'-layout which works for all components?
2011-01-22 18:36 <wpwrak> roh: would kinda suck to find out :)
2011-01-22 18:37 <wpwrak> roh: the problem is the center pad. huge variations where.
2011-01-22 18:37 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: dont trust manuals? :-)
2011-01-22 18:37 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i would trust them if they did actually document that stuff ...
2011-01-22 18:37 <roh> wpwrak: sure.. 'special' stuff needs special footprints (amps, ldo, pmu, stuff that dissipates heat that way)
2011-01-22 18:39 <wpwrak> (intersil) sorry, not four. it's 5.
2011-01-22 18:41 <wpwrak> roh: things also seem to depend on how the case is cut and such. sure, you can have a "generic" footprint that works most of the time in the lab, but ...
2011-01-22 18:43 <roh> sure. i still think we should only add footprint deviations to 'the lib' when needed, not for every new chip
2011-01-22 18:44 <roh> that way we would go nuts and not solve any real problems but more the theoretical ones... and it can still go bad. you know yourself how wrong documentation can be. rather stay on the design, prototype, test, rethink loop evaluating the real world
2011-01-22 18:45 <roh> the latter one is known to work well, and the foss community gives us good chance for crowdsourcing some of the rather annoying gruntwork which could be needed for some kind of testing, or inputting data. i was quite impressed about that in gta02 (how many people startet looking at the schems and commented on stuff)
2011-01-22 18:50 <wpwrak> roh: i'm just doing the chips i need for atben/atusb ...
2011-01-22 19:00 <wpwrak> roh: http://pastebin.com/Kz48YCkt
2011-01-22 19:01 <wpwrak> at least the pins on the outside are reasonably similar. only the Intersil L32.5x5E deviates.
2011-01-22 19:04 <roh> hum
2011-01-22 19:05 <kristianpaul> lol https://gist.github.com/791638
2011-01-22 19:05 <roh> wpwrak: the values are min/typ/max?
2011-01-22 19:07 <roh> kristianpaul: hrrr. where is that from? the rtems source?
2011-01-22 19:07 <wpwrak> yes
2011-01-22 19:07 <wpwrak> of course, then we get this: http://pastebin.com/TtpfR5jz
2011-01-22 19:08 <wpwrak> luckily, silabs do provide a footprint
2011-01-22 19:09 <kristianpaul> roh: yup, seems to a netdemo example
2011-01-22 19:10 <kristianpaul> roh: git://github.com/fallen/network-demos.git
2011-01-22 19:26 <roh> hm. how is it configured on the mm1?
2011-01-22 19:27 <roh> and why are the buffersizes 0?
2011-01-22 19:32 <kristianpaul> he, too much questions, i cant answer now ;-)
2011-01-22 19:32 <kristianpaul> give me some days
2011-01-22 19:32 <roh> ;)
2011-01-22 19:33 <kristianpaul> btw you have a M1 too isnt??
2011-01-22 19:34 <kristianpaul> if so, grab rtems examples and see it your self :-)
2011-01-22 19:44 <roh> i only have a mechanical protoype right now (no chips soldered, only sockets)
2011-01-22 19:44 <roh> will get a rc2 next month
2011-01-22 19:45 <kristianpaul> good :-D
2011-01-22 19:50 <roh> the .v files are verilog?
2011-01-22 19:50 <kristianpaul> yes sr
2011-01-22 20:01 <roh> somehow it seems much less code than i expected
2011-01-22 20:02 <kristianpaul> what are you looking at?
2011-01-22 20:02 <roh> the .v files in boards/milkymist-one/rtl
2011-01-22 20:02 <wpwrak> mmu.v :)
2011-01-22 20:02 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: ;_)
2011-01-22 20:03 <kristianpaul> roh: top files are not so big (besides wishbone blablahblah..), check the cores :-)
2011-01-22 20:04 <roh> sure. but isnt that the idea? splitting complexity into modules till small enough for our tiny puny human brainz?
2011-01-22 20:05 <kristianpaul> ah, you mean sebastien brain? :-)
2011-01-22 20:06 <roh> i dont yet get even half of what this source does i guess ;)
2011-01-22 20:06 <roh> but i dont know verilog.. so i have atleast something to learn
2011-01-22 20:06 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: you think mmu is trivial to do? (actually so far i dint check literature about it)
2011-01-22 20:06 <roh> 1'b0 means 1 'line' with the Binary value of 0 ?
2011-01-22 20:06 <kristianpaul> s/do/model
2011-01-22 20:07 <kristianpaul> 1 bit
2011-01-22 20:07 <roh> 4'hd is funny.
2011-01-22 20:07 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: trivial if you don't care about efficiency. non-trivial if you do :)
2011-01-22 20:08 <roh> what does 1'bz mean? is z something like 'tristate' (not 1, not 0, please float)?
2011-01-22 20:08 <roh> i guess i should find the right book for me.
2011-01-22 20:09 <kristianpaul> :-)
2011-01-22 20:09 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: for a dead-simple MMU, you just need one register set: current page virtual address, current page physical address. for each mmu'ed access, you compare with the virtual address. if there's a match, you substitute the upper address bits with the phy addr register.
2011-01-22 20:10 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: if there's a mismatch, you do a trap/supervisor call/whatever. the trap also disables the mmu until you return from it.
2011-01-22 20:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: the trap handler then walks the page tables in software and provides the new entry
2011-01-22 20:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (for the trap handler, you also need to provide the address that caused the trap)
2011-01-22 20:12 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: all this assumes that your instructions that touch memory are restartable after a trap. if not, things get more complicated.
2011-01-22 20:12 <kristianpaul> What think linux about that?
2011-01-22 20:13 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: well, you have to implemenent the usual paging code of course
2011-01-22 20:13 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: that is page table handling. define a structure, access functions, intialization, and so on.
2011-01-22 20:16 <larsc> roh: z is floating
2011-01-22 20:16 <roh> and what does x mean?
2011-01-22 20:16 <larsc> undefined
2011-01-22 20:17 <larsc> matches everything if used in a case statement
2011-01-22 20:17 <roh> so 64'bx just means '64 lines, dont care which state yet' ?
2011-01-22 20:17 <larsc> i guess so
2011-01-22 20:18 <roh> hmm. that needs some getting used to
2011-01-22 20:19 <larsc> if run an simulation and see an x it could aslo be that there are multiple drivers setting different values for the bus
2011-01-22 20:20 <larsc> if you run ...
2011-01-22 20:22 <kristianpaul> roh: what also need time to used: how to rightly wire modules; the concurrent "programing"  thinking
2011-01-22 20:23 <kristianpaul> anyway verilog is interesting as it looks like C :-)
2011-01-22 20:24 <kristianpaul> and be friendly with your synthesis tool :-)
2011-01-22 20:24 <roh> ack. i somehow like verilog more than vhdl already
2011-01-22 20:25 <roh> the vhdl code i got flying around is much more verbose and obscure
2011-01-22 20:26 <kristianpaul> :-|
2011-01-22 20:27 <roh> verbose as in 'i dont get why they write down the same twice'
2011-01-22 20:29 <wpwrak> roh: vhdl:verilog = COBOL:C :)
2011-01-22 20:30 <roh> hrhr
2011-01-22 20:30 <larsc> roh: you mean architecture and component?
2011-01-22 20:30 <wpwrak> similarly, SDL:Promela = COBOL:C :)
2011-01-22 20:32 <kristianpaul> wait wait, was not vhdl Ada like?
2011-01-22 20:33 <wpwrak> well, ADA is not necessarily a more flattering comparison ;-)
2011-01-22 20:34 <larsc> kristianpaul: yes it was/is
2011-01-22 20:41 <roh> larsc: more like syntax and concept
2011-01-22 20:42 <larsc> ok
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: qfn.fpd: added measurements and improved design of the central pad http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8703fc1
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: updated for 0402 resizing http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e4f38d2
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.sch: rearranged spacing in schematics to make more room at the feed line http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/77a3029
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: introduced optional antenna matching capacitor http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8b62741
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: replaced old chip components with updated ones http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/836c89e
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: introduced optional antenna matching capacitor http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/30aff81
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: rearranged component references and values for printing/display http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1d2fdb3
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: BOOKSHELF: added the ATmega32U2 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2dab099
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: qfn.fpd: corrected center pads, and general cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3a59aef
2011-01-22 23:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: set AT86F231 footprint to QFN32-VHHD-6 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/059d282
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.brd: added external ground traces to VSS pins adjacent to RF http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ea05b19
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.sch, atben.brd: bumped version to 20110123 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7142959
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: updated C8051F326 and AT86RF321 footprints http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1f959d9
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: added title, origin, and license on silk screen layer http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1b5abff
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.sch, atrf.sch, usb.sch, atusb.brd: bumped version to 20110123 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/bcc8ea7
2011-01-22 23:52 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.brd, atusb.brd: added design name (ATBEN, ATUSB) to silk screen text http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/83b903d