2011-01-21 00:30 need to catch up 2011-01-21 01:19 qi-bot: hi! 2011-01-21 02:53 adamw_: has wolfgang already told you what "production fixture" i have in mind for the initial flashing of the atusb board ? :) 2011-01-21 02:54 adamw_: i.e., http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-use.jpg 2011-01-21 02:54 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-closer.jpg 2011-01-21 02:54 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-pogo.jpg 2011-01-21 02:54 wpwrak, not yet. :-) 2011-01-21 02:54 adamw_: do you think you'll survive with this kind of setup for ~100 units ? 2011-01-21 02:55 for atusb 100 units? 2011-01-21 02:55 yup 2011-01-21 02:56 roh: (lasered antenna) seems that you have a lot of interesting research ahead of you :) 2011-01-21 02:57 this is "production fixture" I can make it. 2011-01-21 02:57 but my question won't be only that. 2011-01-21 02:57 i'd send you a pair of these critters, ben cable and pogo pins 2011-01-21 02:58 1, find a free space to verify the transmission & receive performance is my concern. 2011-01-21 02:58 i think they work reliably enough, just a bit unusual 2011-01-21 02:59 yup, the testing process ... i now have a packet error rate test in the atrf utilities. so that should help. 2011-01-21 02:59 for a trial run, your this idea is quite enough. If need, I may make an real fixture to hook up without manually touching. 2011-01-21 03:00 hmm..sounds you already well-known. 2011-01-21 03:00 for the free space, you probably don't need anything overly nice. probably just a large enough table and you're good for testing whether the board has been correctly assembled. 2011-01-21 03:01 i.e., i would expect "bad" boards to fail in a very noticeable way, not just be a little worse. well, we can also just declare that "just a few dB" worse is okay for now :) 2011-01-21 03:01 so you need to have a near field test on your side first to show "PASS' or "FAIL' displayed on PC host program! 2011-01-21 03:02 then I survive! Or I dead. :-) 2011-01-21 03:02 (near field) yes, that's the idea 2011-01-21 03:03 your report today is some equivalent 'far field' performance. 2011-01-21 03:04 i did antenna sensitivity tests with about 3 m between sender and receiver in a largely empty room. not an anechoic chamber of course, but the best i have. then, for more interactive debugging, i just had things arranged in my lab. about 1 m between sender and receiver, lots of things laying around. and general behaviour in this "dirty" setup was similar to the cleaner one. so i think the near field isn't too bad 2011-01-21 03:05 so please write a good procedure to test 'near field' on said in 2 ~3 meter free space without large metal surrounding the circle. 2011-01-21 03:05 and in addition, i did these "real life" far field tests, yes 2011-01-21 03:05 yeah...i saw your apartment layout! :-) It's real. 2011-01-21 03:06 do you have a spectrum analyzer ? or if you don't, will you be able to borrow one ? 2011-01-21 03:06 so take some time to make some experimental data in 'near field' test. 2011-01-21 03:07 hmm...I don't have SA, I can try to borrow or go to some where to test. 2011-01-21 03:08 for the field test, i was thinking of something like this: take one pc/laptop with a known to be good atusb. let this be the receiver. then put a known to be good DUT at whatever place you have (with laptop, for atusb, or ben, for atben) 2011-01-21 03:08 you should do a very clean laying around like 1 ~2 meters to get your data to be as threshold control to determine shown on PC side to indicate PASS or FAIL. 2011-01-21 03:08 :-) 2011-01-21 03:09 hmm...like that.. 2011-01-21 03:09 the send a test signal with maximum TX power and check the error pattern. adjust TX power down until errors start to appear. 2011-01-21 03:10 then take this as a reference setting 2011-01-21 03:10 surely I am not sure your f/w needed to be calibrate to fix now... 2011-01-21 03:10 (clear 1-2 m) yes, that would be good 2011-01-21 03:10 yeah..do a reference value for threshold setting , TX power, RSSI level. 2011-01-21 03:11 if you can have a spectrum analyzer, it's easier to find any distortions. i.e., you'd see immediately if something is wrong 2011-01-21 03:12 surely. 2011-01-21 03:12 like here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tst-cw/ 2011-01-21 03:12 you don't worry that SA, I can operate that. :) 2011-01-21 03:12 i just don't have it now. 2011-01-21 03:12 :-) 2011-01-21 03:13 and you'd also see if you have changes caused by orientation or foreign objects. e.g., i've seen the spectrum change by about 10 dB just depending on where my body is. 2011-01-21 03:13 haha... 2011-01-21 03:13 I was always stayed in chamber before... 2011-01-21 03:13 well the better to find one here can support me. :-) 2011-01-21 03:13 (sa) yeah, i know that you can that :) just convincing you that it's really useful to have for this 2011-01-21 03:15 not sure the new guy Wolfgang met can do or not? 2011-01-21 03:15 unfortunately, i didn't think of telling wolfgang earlier about the spectrum analyzer. there's a company in germany that makes fairly inexpensive ones. he could have bought one and brought it. 2011-01-21 03:16 naw, i mean for production testing. i suppose you'd want to do that locally, not send to germany etc. 2011-01-21 03:16 ha ..I didn't bought from OM. 2011-01-21 03:16 well, joachim has a spectrum analyzer (at ccc), so that would be a plan B 2011-01-21 03:17 the low-cost analyzer i was thinking of is only about EUR 400. but shipping would be expensive because it comes in a large box. 2011-01-21 03:17 hmm...you may need to think a schedule first...then to see if Wolfgang have idea for newest plan. 2011-01-21 03:17 i can get cheaper, just need to ask/check here. 2011-01-21 03:18 this is what i had in mind: http://spectran.com/Handheld_Spectrum_Analyzer.htm#9 2011-01-21 03:18 (cheaper than EUR 400) ah, that's good. of course, you're at the source for low-cost stuff :) 2011-01-21 03:19 HF-4040? 2011-01-21 03:19 yup 2011-01-21 03:20 ah, sorry, EUR 500 2011-01-21 03:20 they also have one for EUR 350, but i think the HF-4040 would be worth the difference 2011-01-21 03:21 hm..I won't have further action until Wolfgang tell me a real schedule. :-) 2011-01-21 03:21 hmm..i see. 2011-01-21 03:21 (real schedule) also depends on your other activities, i guess 2011-01-21 03:22 my plan is to make a few protoypes of the final design. then send a pair of atben/atusb to you as references, and one pair to roh as mechanical samples. 2011-01-21 03:23 then you can play with the production test setup. ah, is it convenient for you to use two PCs for this or would you rather connect everything to the same PC ? 2011-01-21 03:24 to (same PC+ atusb) with (BEN + atben) 2011-01-21 03:26 okay, then i need to add one option to my usb code to let you select which device to talk to if you have more than one connected to your pc. should have that already somewhere in my old openmoko stuff ... 2011-01-21 03:27 sounds good. :) 2011-01-21 03:27 atben has no persistent state, so all it needs is the testing. atusb needs flashing. there are two steps: upload the boot loader with the pogo pin thing, then plug it into USB and download the rest of the firmware via DFU. 2011-01-21 03:28 any later firmware upgrades can also be made with DFU 2011-01-21 03:30 after DFU, it resets into the regular firmware, so you can then test without disconnecting 2011-01-21 03:30 ok,..just write proceduces in somewhere wiki..then I learn when we get schedule to start. the (real schedule) yes depends on other activities. :) 2011-01-21 03:31 right now I could not digest..:-) but it's real great to see your report today. 2011-01-21 03:32 (document the process) will do that, yes. also make a little script around the commands or such 2011-01-21 03:34 by the way, for the board cutting at the pcb maker, how do i make sure they're cutting the board precisely at the right place ? what i currently have is this: 2011-01-21 03:34 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/README 2011-01-21 03:34 good..you know me 2011-01-21 03:34 (last item) 2011-01-21 03:35 (you need to view it with a monospaced font or it won't look right) 2011-01-21 03:36 digesting... 2011-01-21 03:37 hmm, maybe i should make a PDF of it. just a sec 2011-01-21 03:37 hard to understand your 'stacking'... 2011-01-21 03:39 are u trying to say 'Don't cut antenna route?' while making pcb? 2011-01-21 03:39 in 'c2-closer.jpg'? 2011-01-21 03:43 ah, not cutting the antenna is important too :) but no, i mean that the board cut needs to be very precise anyway, because it has to be shaped like a uSD card (8:10 card :) 2011-01-21 03:46 hm...when I get your sample and see your gerber, I will send to pcb maker to check. Two makers I dealed with now they have uSD card capability. 2011-01-21 03:47 so I may need to check the uSD's specification on pcb definition. 2011-01-21 03:47 i bet you already have such data, haven't it? 2011-01-21 03:47 here we are: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/edge.pdf 2011-01-21 03:48 the uSD spec. yeah, measured it. with the help of Ornotermes' high resolution scan :) 2011-01-21 03:49 the yellow thing is the PCB edge as drawn in kicad 2011-01-21 03:49 there, i used a 5 mil line 2011-01-21 03:50 moment 2011-01-21 03:51 express picker is come... 2011-01-21 03:51 now, my definition is that the center of that line shall be the real pcb edge. so the tool needs to be offset accordingly. the question is what the pcb makers expect. i.e., whether they can handle the line being technically zero-width, whether they need it to be offset by the line width, whether they also need a specific line width (to match the tool), etc. 2011-01-21 03:53 updated the PDF. should be a bit more readable now 2011-01-21 03:56 hi I need some help concerning unbricking my nanonote 2011-01-21 03:57 wolfspraul may you please help me? 2011-01-21 03:58 I used one euro coin in place of carbonized rubber that I have not 2011-01-21 03:58 qwebirc20929: wow. isn't that huge ? 2011-01-21 03:58 I also tried with a piece of coca cola litter 2011-01-21 03:59 not too much 2011-01-21 03:59 I thought It might connect the two pins 2011-01-21 03:59 hmm, it has a rounded edge ... might be tricky 2011-01-21 03:59 if you have tweezers, they may work better 2011-01-21 04:00 or very small scissors 2011-01-21 04:01 unfortunately I do not have here 2011-01-21 04:01 or maybe take some aluminium foil, crumple it to give it some pointy peaks, and use that 2011-01-21 04:05 wpwrak, the dot line is you imagine the pcb edge (thus is the V-Cut area?)? 2011-01-21 04:06 wpwrak, i think i need git clone yours first. Otherwise I can't follow you. 2011-01-21 04:07 the volume between the dotted lines is what the mill would remove, yes. you need a straight cut, not a V cut. 2011-01-21 04:09 for the cutting, the CNC mill needs the path for the center of the tool. the question is how the pcb makers go from the board edge as drawn in kicad to this path. 2011-01-21 04:09 depending on what they need, the data may need some prior conversion 2011-01-21 04:10 hmm..after I totally get your point, then you go further steps. 2011-01-21 04:10 i have a tool to do that sort of math. doesn't output gerber yet, but that wouldn't be too difficult to add. (i used this tool with my mill, where i have the same type of transform to make) 2011-01-21 04:10 sorry ;-)) 2011-01-21 04:11 can you generate gerber then I check again? 2011-01-21 04:11 or I generate here. 2011-01-21 04:11 to see first. cloning.. 2011-01-21 04:12 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atben-PCB_Edges.gbr 2011-01-21 04:12 I tried with a paper clip but the red led does not turn on for a while.. If I do not use the paper clip to connect the two pins the red led flashes for a while 2011-01-21 04:13 I will go 2011-01-21 04:13 to buy tweezers 2011-01-21 04:13 this is the board outline. let me draw a top view 2011-01-21 04:17 yeah. draw a top view with atben pcb outline ..i still can't get your idea. 2011-01-21 04:17 i opened pcb atben pcb design... 2011-01-21 04:18 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/top.pdf 2011-01-21 04:18 left is the board outline as shown in kicad 2011-01-21 04:19 right is the board i want. i.e., cut along the _center_ of the pcb edge line as shown in kicad 2011-01-21 04:20 hmmm...got your idea totally now. 2011-01-21 04:20 thanks the drawing. :) 2011-01-21 04:21 I need to study the formal uSD specification on dimension. 2011-01-21 04:21 Does your design already meet uSD dimension or you just fit atben in BEN and make your won pcb? 2011-01-21 04:22 well...I need to ask pcb maker for this. 2011-01-21 04:22 my dimensions are here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/8_10-card.ps 2011-01-21 04:23 this should be very close to the real uSD dimensions. (i don't have the original spec) 2011-01-21 04:23 hmm...i see now. 2011-01-21 04:24 so i need the pcb makers to just do exactly what my file says :) 2011-01-21 04:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD 2011-01-21 04:25 there's a link at the bottom to check specification. 2011-01-21 04:25 but the question is how the edge line gets interpreted by them. maybe they already interpret it in this way. maybe they offset the tool by half the line width. maybe they have a minimum line width. maybe they'll just adapt to whatever we tell them. 2011-01-21 04:25 if yours doesn't come with standard, you may need to modify.. 2011-01-21 04:26 yes I see. I'll ask them that how they produce & cut it veritically. 2011-01-21 04:26 the microSD mechanical specification is not open. only for SD assoc members :) 2011-01-21 04:27 but i think my design is close enough :) handles exactly like a real uSD card. 2011-01-21 04:27 yes, could probably just alternatively use tool to change or they can handle. 2011-01-21 04:28 really?...not open? hmm...interesting. 2011-01-21 04:28 well, the real card is a bit thinner - 0.7 vs. the 0.8 mm of my PCB. but that's something i can't control. besides, the 0.8 mm may actually make it wobble a bit less 2011-01-21 04:29 so with the edge, there are basically three questions: 2011-01-21 04:29 1) can they do this accurately enough at all ? we shouldn't be the only ones with narrow tolerances, but not every pcb shop may be able to handle this. 2011-01-21 04:30 2) how do they handle the tool position with respect to that PCB Edge line. in particular, can they align it such that it cuts along the edge ? 2011-01-21 04:31 I found the tweezers 2011-01-21 04:31 3) are there any limitations for the PCB Edge line ? e.g., do they require a specific width ? (this would be the case if they treat it directly as a toolpath without any conversion) 2011-01-21 04:32 qwebirc20929: whee ! should be easier now. just make sure you disconnect usb for ~30 seconds before trying 2011-01-21 04:32 so the sequence3 is the following .. 2011-01-21 04:33 step one disconnect usb cable from both side 2011-01-21 04:33 step two connect the two pins with the tweezers 2011-01-21 04:34 step tree connect the nn to notebook while the pin are connected by tweezers 2011-01-21 04:34 the pins sorry 2011-01-21 04:34 qwebirc20929: yup, sounds good 2011-01-21 04:34 then have a look at watch lsusb terminal 2011-01-21 04:35 qwebirc20929: it's probably difficult to keep the pins shorted while connecting the usb cable to the ben. so i'd add 2011-01-21 04:35 there is no need to press the on button 2011-01-21 04:35 step 1.5: connect the USB cable on the Ben side 2011-01-21 04:35 wpwrak, I'll let you know after I know. 2011-01-21 04:35 that way, when you connect USB, you don't have mechanical forces working against the tweezers 2011-01-21 04:36 adamw_: thanks ! 2011-01-21 04:36 qwebirc20929: the on button is not needed 2011-01-21 04:37 qwebirc20929: important: the time while the ben has no power should be ~30 seconds. otherwise, it may not properly discharge and thus not reset. 2011-01-21 04:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system remove sshfs, not working under dropbear ssh server http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/376949e 2011-01-21 04:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add vm.overcommit_memory = 1 sysctl.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/775a29c 2011-01-21 04:40 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: emacs, strip binary after build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/04bb8f8 2011-01-21 04:43 wow lsusb watch works 2011-01-21 04:43 please add it in the wiki the issue of 30 seconds 2011-01-21 04:43 congratulations ! 2011-01-21 04:44 beacuse it sounds crucial 2011-01-21 04:44 qwebirc20929: I see wpwrak already helped you unbrick your Ben. wonderful! 2011-01-21 04:44 wolfspraul: seems that time time-to-drain is missing (the 30 secs) ? 2011-01-21 04:44 it is not mentioned 2011-01-21 04:44 s/time // 2011-01-21 04:44 on the wiki 2011-01-21 04:44 30 seconds sounds like a lot, I doubt more than 10 is ever needed 2011-01-21 04:45 so users could become frustrated 2011-01-21 04:45 would be good to add. it's a bit longer than most people would intuitively assume 2011-01-21 04:45 qwebirc20929: you don't have the carbonized rubber button? (sorry long backlog haven't read it all yet) 2011-01-21 04:45 wolfspraul: i think it's more than 10 sec. something around 20. 30 is with a bit of safety margin. 2011-01-21 04:45 no sir 2011-01-21 04:45 I used the tweezers 2011-01-21 04:45 why not? it's included with every Ben. comes in a small plastic bag. 2011-01-21 04:46 the risk of tweezers is that you apply to much force and scratch the board, or scratch/rip off the pads 2011-01-21 04:46 It was not in the bug 2011-01-21 04:46 but you made it already :-) 2011-01-21 04:46 bag sorry 2011-01-21 04:46 strange 2011-01-21 04:46 one item for the ya wishlist: connect that usb boot to a real button ;-) 2011-01-21 04:46 did you see a small plastic bag? 2011-01-21 04:46 yes I did 2011-01-21 04:46 (that is, if we still need it then) 2011-01-21 04:46 wpwrak: we tried, but it was surprisingly hard because of some timing issue. 2011-01-21 04:46 but there was not 2011-01-21 04:47 the bricking problem should mostly go away if our software were more robust 2011-01-21 04:47 wolfspraul: timing issues with a button ? :) 2011-01-21 04:47 I blame usbboot :-) 2011-01-21 04:47 wpwrak: it's a long story, seriously both Adam and Carlos tried but failed to make it work... 2011-01-21 04:47 someone forgot or maybe it dropped while I was exploring it for the first time 2011-01-21 04:47 wolfspraul: then people will write new, less robust software ;-) 2011-01-21 04:48 now I would install this openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.2010.07.07.bin 2011-01-21 04:49 beacuse I would like to boot 4gb with debian 2011-01-21 04:49 wolfspraul: hmm. you'd have to connect the button to some gpios .. if there's weird stuff on these at reset time, that could cause trouble. but that's the only issue i could think of. 2011-01-21 04:49 on the internet is written that is better for 4gb microsd card isn't rue? 2011-01-21 04:52 this is the link I followed to unpack debian on the sd card http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=535 2011-01-21 04:52 qwebirc20929: where did you get that binary from? 2011-01-21 04:53 2010.07.07 sounds old 2011-01-21 04:53 and where they say to use this particular uboot ... 2011-01-21 04:53 why don't you just run reflash_ben.sh ? 2011-01-21 04:53 could I do it right now? 2011-01-21 04:53 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/ 2011-01-21 04:53 the latest OpenWrt images are here 2011-01-21 04:54 where did you get this binary from? 2011-01-21 04:54 and why did you try to reflash a kernel into page 0, overwriting u-boot? 2011-01-21 04:54 wherever you get your instructions from, it's wrong :-) 2011-01-21 04:56 most people who have bricking problems with Ben were giving a try to debian.. maybe, in fact, there are wrong instructions for flashin debian into Ben spreaded around the Internet? 2011-01-21 04:56 so please inform the author of that web page 2011-01-21 04:56 or I will tell him when I will have time 2011-01-21 04:56 kyak: on last count, i think it was 100% debian ;-) 2011-01-21 04:57 wpwrak: yeah, i'm just trying to find possible excuses for debian :) 2011-01-21 04:57 kyak: well, there was the nerase bug. there probably are still many broken usbboots in circulation 2011-01-21 04:57 xiangfu: that's your page 2011-01-21 04:57 okay may I run reflash.sh script now? 2011-01-21 04:58 you can try. you already went through the worst possible experience, it cannot get worse! 2011-01-21 04:58 you are hardened now - no more fear. 2011-01-21 04:58 worst case you overwrite u-boot again and have to short the pins again :-) 2011-01-21 04:58 with the ben, the only thing to fear is fear itself :) 2011-01-21 05:01 qwebirc20929: this page: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/DebianÂ Â is up to date 2011-01-21 05:02 xiangfu: you should correct or delete the page with wrong information (I cannot load it right now so I don't know what it says...) 2011-01-21 05:03 or just put a link to better instructions there 2011-01-21 05:03 if you want to be perfect you can leave the old page as is, but add a clearly visible note at the top that the information is outdated, with a link to a better page 2011-01-21 05:03 oh.. but here are a lot of old page in that blog. I will add the wiki link to that page. 2011-01-21 05:03 wolfspraul: yes. 2011-01-21 05:03 wolfspraul: that is better :) 2011-01-21 05:04 sure no rush, just in principle. 2011-01-21 05:04 misleading information is much worse than no information at all. 2011-01-21 05:04 of course we are all dealing with progress, and there is tons of outdated stuff everywhere 2011-01-21 05:05 about build progress. now there are only two packages not compile in build hosts: php5 and plplot 2011-01-21 05:06 also I update my build script file. using make "make package/symbiclink" not "./scripts/feeds ..." anymore 2011-01-21 05:07 I need go. see you guys later. 2011-01-21 05:30 I would understand how to manage openwrti graphic interface 2011-01-21 05:31 what keyboard buttons could I use? 2011-01-21 05:41 qwebirc20929: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Gmenu2x 2011-01-21 05:44 wolfsspraul reflash.sh has finished its job 2011-01-21 05:45 What is the correct sequence now? 2011-01-21 05:45 unplug usb cable 2011-01-21 05:45 reinsert battery 2011-01-21 05:45 and then press on button and wait for 20s 2011-01-21 05:45 Am I right? 2011-01-21 05:47 sure sounds good 2011-01-21 05:47 don't hesitate this is a consumer quality product, you can play with it a little, it will not break 2011-01-21 05:48 if anything then the software is not consumer quality yet... 2011-01-21 05:48 qwebirc20929: is it booting? 2011-01-21 05:48 just a second please 2011-01-21 05:49 it is sir 2011-01-21 05:50 good 2011-01-21 05:50 that's how it should be 2011-01-21 05:51 I don't know what your plans are, but very roughly I would suggest you play with this a litle, go through some apps. 2011-01-21 05:51 if you like adventures, you can then also try Jlime 2011-01-21 05:51 but get a bit more familiar with the device first 2011-01-21 05:52 I I have run ebook but the nn is freezing 2011-01-21 05:52 I can not use ctrl alt f1 etc to switch to terminal 2011-01-21 05:53 I sounds like nn stopped itself 2011-01-21 05:53 now the screen is off 2011-01-21 05:54 and it does not turn on anymore 2011-01-21 05:55 perhaps is the battery 2011-01-21 05:55 one by one 2011-01-21 05:55 which ebook app did you run? 2011-01-21 05:55 some apps have a slow startup time on the first launch after reflashing 2011-01-21 05:56 up to 60 seconds (is a bug, should be improved) 2011-01-21 05:56 like stardict for example 2011-01-21 05:56 now is turning on again .. with usb cable 2011-01-21 05:56 you can try ctrl-alt-f2 2011-01-21 05:56 abook 2011-01-21 05:56 the device does not properly shut itself down when the battery is low, I believe 2011-01-21 05:56 in that case it will just drain the battery, until the screen turns white and the devices goes off 2011-01-21 05:56 a bit rude :-) 2011-01-21 05:57 yes I can 2011-01-21 05:57 I can see busybox 2011-01-21 05:58 now I would run xiafu debian 2011-01-21 06:00 I will write halt 2011-01-21 06:00 and then on + M together Am I right? 2011-01-21 06:00 that boots from the flash card, right? 2011-01-21 06:00 hope so 2011-01-21 06:00 I believe it does. 2011-01-21 06:00 Debian will be very slow, in my opinion it's unusable on the Ben. 2011-01-21 06:00 just for demo purposes :-) 2011-01-21 06:00 I will set up 1gb of swap .. that should help 2011-01-21 06:01 help making it even more slower :) 2011-01-21 06:01 it did not boot 2011-01-21 06:02 now I have openwrti 2011-01-21 06:02 I have another question 2011-01-21 06:02 I order on the web some nokia batteries 3.7 V 850 mmAh 2011-01-21 06:03 but I am not sure if they will fit on nn 2011-01-21 06:04 Do you have any hints on battery for nn ..? 2011-01-21 06:04 sorry any hint 2011-01-21 06:04 there is a compatiblity list on wiki 2011-01-21 06:05 the second thing is about building a nn cluster using an usb hub... Is it possible? 2011-01-21 06:09 if i said "it is possible", would you know how to do it? :) 2011-01-21 06:10 I know how to do it with a regularar 386 amd64 mixed cluster using a classical ethernet hub 2011-01-21 06:12 but here the archicterure is different 2011-01-21 06:12 since Ben has Ethernet over USB capability i guess yes, it is possible 2011-01-21 06:12 iirc the NN is a USB device, not a USB host 2011-01-21 06:12 you'd need one host device on such a network, I think 2011-01-21 06:12 sure 2011-01-21 06:12 yeah, not a host 2011-01-21 06:12 yes 2011-01-21 06:12 sure 2011-01-21 06:13 I would be challenging to do it 2011-01-21 06:13 beacuse the energy consumption is lower 2011-01-21 06:13 and the principles are the sames of bigger 386 amd64 brothers 2011-01-21 06:13 because sorry 2011-01-21 06:14 very interesting to know the results, don't hesitate to post them 2011-01-21 06:14 you could use a netbook, a usb hub and a bunch of NanoNotes 2011-01-21 06:18 yes sir that is one possible idea 2011-01-21 06:18 I would install gnu OCTAVE 2011-01-21 06:19 on debian is still possible 2011-01-21 06:19 and easy to do 2011-01-21 06:19 all the packages are ready 2011-01-21 06:20 for xburst arch mpisel tec.. 2011-01-21 06:26 ok 2011-01-21 06:35 Now I have to go Thanks to all for your patience and help 2011-01-21 07:50 bah wolf is not more here.. 2011-01-21 07:51 maybe having dinner 2011-01-21 07:51 which applications are the stars for nn? 2011-01-21 07:51 just network outage (ping timeout) 2011-01-21 07:51 zrafa: prboom! :) 2011-01-21 07:52 wpwrak: I am asking because I always read that Debian is slow and unusable.. But, on the other hand I see that official openwrt qi version is full of applications for console 2011-01-21 07:52 wpwrak: so I guess that those applications would work okey using Debian 2011-01-21 07:52 wpwrak: and also, those would have full features and no less 2011-01-21 07:52 and that console organizer, noticed in ML.. can't remember it's name 2011-01-21 07:53 some 3 letters 2011-01-21 07:53 something like 'nhm' 2011-01-21 07:53 Jay7: prboom is light.. it should work okey in Debian on fb 2011-01-21 07:54 I need to test Debian soon 2011-01-21 07:56 bc, top, vim, etc.. none of them should be slow in Debian. I wonder why is unusuable 2011-01-21 07:56 zrafa: (slow debian) maybe an unoptimized boot process or such. can't quite imagine that the "normal" apps would be much slower than on other distros 2011-01-21 07:56 zrafa: maybe fatter, with man pages and stuff 2011-01-21 07:57 wpwrak: yeah, but that does not do Debian slower (more files) 2011-01-21 07:57 wpwrak: on the other hand it seems that if I test Debian my nn will have a broken bootloader after installation :P 2011-01-21 07:59 zrafa: well, you have idbg. with it, the usb boot is very very easy ;-) 2011-01-21 08:01 wpwrak: if we wanted to embed atben into a future product, how hard is it in terms of antenna tuning, or reusing what we have currently in general? 2011-01-21 08:01 can we reuse the layout? or totally new layout needed? 2011-01-21 08:01 uff 2011-01-21 08:01 can we cut & paste the antenna? how about the PCB specs? 2011-01-21 08:01 drilled all the shielding sheets 2011-01-21 08:02 totally new layout. you also have more layers, so you make everything denser. yes, you can reuse the same antenna. 2011-01-21 08:02 after that, you need to measure ;-) 2011-01-21 08:02 roh: congrats! how long did it take you? 2011-01-21 08:03 the "core parts" seem to be pretty stable. even if you mess with the layout a lot, nothing really changes. 2011-01-21 08:03 wolfspraul: didnt stop it 2011-01-21 08:03 i wrote some gcode and used the mill 2011-01-21 08:03 it fits just like that. 3mm more and i couldnt use the mill ;) 2011-01-21 08:04 made some pics 2011-01-21 08:08 nice 2011-01-21 08:08 gcode! :-) I vaguely remember this from somewhere... 2011-01-21 08:08 for the sake of it, commit it along with the dxf :-) 2011-01-21 08:10 roh: do you write gcode or just generate it ? 2011-01-21 08:15 this time i just wrote it down 2011-01-21 08:15 easy enough for 4 holes 2011-01-21 08:17 ah okay. no big deal then :) 2011-01-21 08:17 it takes more time to manually remove the splinters 2011-01-21 08:17 'entgraten' 2011-01-21 08:18 and i dont have stickers to isolate yet. i got a dxf for it.. will find out if it makes more sense to lasercut or use a cutting plotter for that 2011-01-21 08:19 this shielding thing eats much more time than initially thought 2011-01-21 08:21 (splinters) that would be burr. the process is called deburring. and yeah, do i hate it, too :) 2011-01-21 08:22 (isolate) why not do that before cutting so you cut both at the same time ? may also reduce the burr 2011-01-21 08:27 nah. i need clean metal around the holes 2011-01-21 08:27 thats where the sheet connects to the shielding of the board via the metal screws and distance pieces 2011-01-21 08:30 ah, i see 2011-01-21 08:48 roh: btw, have atmel released their debugWIRE spec by now ? or has it been at least reverse engineered ? 2011-01-21 09:03 wpwrak: neither nor afaik 2011-01-21 09:14 steve|m: :-( the large number of signals needed for in-circuit programming is a bit annoying ... 2011-01-21 09:15 wpwrak: is programming via dW even possible? 2011-01-21 09:23 wpwrak: and then again, how do you enable the debug wire fuse? 2011-01-21 09:27 wpwrak: dunno.. never used that 2011-01-21 09:31 steve|m: hmm. good question :) 2011-01-21 09:37 roh: you said that the AVR USB chips are well supported by open software. so there's a basic USB stack ? what I need is just control transfers. an existing DFU implementation would be nice. or else, i could port the one i did for the f32x. 2011-01-21 09:38 there is lufa 2011-01-21 09:38 http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php 2011-01-21 09:40 sounds quite decent. has a lot more than i need :) 2011-01-21 09:41 its the atmel flavour of dfu i think 2011-01-21 09:41 i like this: "my first foray into the world of USB" [...] "LUFA is being used all over the world, in many applications - both free and commercial." 2011-01-21 09:41 dunno whats the difference 2011-01-21 09:42 as i understand it, LUFA is the whole stack. and there's DFU in there too. 2011-01-21 09:42 ack 2011-01-21 09:42 there are just differen flavours of dfu it seems 2011-01-21 09:44