2011-01-04 00:05 ? 2011-01-04 00:05 wpwrak: ? 2011-01-04 00:06 aah gta04, yeah. That'S about the whole story 2011-01-04 00:06 gta04 .. "your baby" :) 2011-01-04 00:06 yeah 2011-01-04 00:07 or shall i say "your love child" ? ;-) 2011-01-04 00:07 hmm 2011-01-04 00:09 iirc you at least didn't feel much love for it :-) 2011-01-04 00:09 Who loves arm around this channel?.. :p 2011-01-04 00:12 DocScrutinizer: let's say that i smelled the rat :) 2011-01-04 00:12 yup 2011-01-04 00:13 anyway, I guess kristianpaul referred to dash 2011-01-04 00:14 i have news ! seems repeated data is normal after all, i'm just reading short intervals from buffer address and i'm getting repeated data in samples of 128, 256 andÂ Â 512 bits 2011-01-04 00:14 it's neither non-deployed nor super alpha, but it clearly was a navi 2011-01-04 00:14 s/arm/arm processors or SoC 2011-01-04 00:16 nv about arm, i'm kind of sleep now 2011-01-04 00:16 i need my tea but i dint go shopping yet 2011-01-04 00:16 hmm, tea 2011-01-04 00:18 kristianpaul: 2440 as far as i remember 2011-01-04 00:18 kristianpaul: so yes, definitely ARM 2011-01-04 00:18 dash? 2011-01-04 00:22 yes 2011-01-04 00:25 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest 2011-01-04 00:30 http://underhanded.xcott.com/ 2011-01-04 00:39 Cadaveras y Diablitos :-) 2011-01-04 00:41 yup i just changed SMCR to some no default value and output after reading seems to behave okay 2011-01-04 00:43 hmm wait 2011-01-04 00:45 oh i hate my self, i forgot to unfix something on fpga before.. :S 2011-01-04 00:52 but.. wow no changes at all after fix it 2011-01-04 00:52 lets take more samples 2011-01-04 00:57 your fpga and my rf measurements seem to share some profound nastiness :) 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: bom/Makefile: invoke eeschema to generate the BOM, some cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6698174 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: BOM update for atusb http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ed20053 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/plscan: comment out yrange (the experiments now cover all sorts of ranges) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9c2f37b 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: update for on-going work; showcase use of "rotate" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/155dfba 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added the AT86RF231 to the bookshelf and the BOM resources http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/66f5fff 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added AT86RF231 schematics symbol http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/56b93a1 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: switched from the AT86RF230 to the AT86RF231, added missing RF ground http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9f8a77e 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd: switched schematics from the AT86RF230 to the AT86RF231 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ee7611 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/atrf.sch: defined footprint of B1 (0805-6) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b44e731 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd: switched to Johanson 2450FB15L0001 balun http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3ea0199 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.sch (C1, C2, C9): added "/RF" to make BOOM select UHI Q type http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7d75642 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: updated U1, added C9, and rearranged things for XTAL1/2 swap http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/47236cb 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: use 110% antenna; better follow 8:10 card shape http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7b10db1 2011-01-04 01:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: removed layer alignment targets (they confuse cameo) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d833b50 2011-01-04 01:49 hey, gnu coreutils is good source of code sample for implementing a command line parameters :-) 2011-01-04 01:49 zzZ 2011-01-04 04:23 I wonder 2011-01-04 04:23 does Jane Andreas ever drop by here? 2011-01-04 04:31 bartbes: maybe he is the gforth guy? ;-)) 2011-01-04 04:31 hahaha 2011-01-04 04:31 no that was David Kuehling iirc 2011-01-04 04:31 two faces man :) 2011-01-04 04:31 it's just annoying that I know their (supposedly) real names 2011-01-04 04:31 but not who they are 2011-01-04 04:39 bartbes: no I've never seen Jane here 2011-01-04 06:17 bartbes: welcome to the age of networking, where you communicate with everyone, yet have never seen anyone's face :) 2011-01-04 06:22 yizhang: wheee, toys are coming ! good news, thanks !! :) 2011-01-04 06:23 wpwrak: you are welcome. 2011-01-04 06:23 wpwrak: thanks a lot 2011-01-04 06:24 i'm looking forward to see your great results 2011-01-04 06:25 wolfspraul: the wpan experimental boards will need some kind of "case". i guess i real case is unlikely at the time, so what shall be the alternative ? "naked" and hope for the best ? a bit of acrylic / silicone / PUR spray ? (used for conformal coating) 2011-01-04 06:26 wolfspraul: dip in a jar of any of the above ? other ? what does the average ACME do when they need a "case" but don't have time to make one ? 2011-01-04 06:27 yizhang: hehe, me too :) and let's hope they are as you say :) 2011-01-04 06:48 wolfspraul: btw, sharism.cc really ought to be de-museified. maybe something for your return flight :) how about just replacing all the "content that should be updated from time to time" (but isn't) with links to where the real stuff is ? 2011-01-04 06:52 wpwrak: toys from digikey?, wow so fast ! 2011-01-04 06:53 kristianpaul: no, these are toys from sharism (need more bens to experimenting - i have a tendency to leave them in various states of dismantlement and immobility that makes it hard to use them for more than one kind of experiment) 2011-01-04 06:54 kristianpaul: the digi-key toys should already be somewhere over the southern US :) 2011-01-04 06:56 ah i see, i was about to think that think digikey is getting _fast_ to you :-) 2011-01-04 06:57 kristianpaul: they're much faster than you thought :) they shipped something like one hour after i ordered. i think that's a new record. 2011-01-04 06:59 alas, at the end, i'll lose a day between customs and fedex. customs, by delaying things beyond the fedex cutoff time for that day, and fedex by having a relatively early cutoff time (something around 10 am for clearing customs) 2011-01-04 07:11 wpwrak: [sharism.cc] yes of course I know. 2011-01-04 07:11 it will need a few more weeks, but I'm getting there 2011-01-04 07:12 wolfspraul: sorry for the nagging ... it's just that everytime i look at it, something at the back of my head starts screaming :) 2011-01-04 07:12 oh sure 2011-01-04 07:12 thanks for the reminder 2011-01-04 07:13 about the case, that's interesting 2011-01-04 07:13 acrylic/silicone/pur 2011-01-04 07:13 what's "the chinese way" if it has to be quick and dirty ? 2011-01-04 07:14 hard to say. probably reuse a USB stick case. 2011-01-04 07:14 heh :) 2011-01-04 07:14 but that will be butt ugly 2011-01-04 07:14 pity that the board is a bit too large for that 2011-01-04 07:15 too wide and too long actually. well, not too long for some of the older ones. 2011-01-04 07:15 why don't we present it to roh ? :-) 2011-01-04 07:15 I'm willing to pay a (little) money if he starts experimenting. 2011-01-04 07:16 you want the case for the 8:10 card or the usb card? 2011-01-04 07:16 both will need a "case" 2011-01-04 07:16 hey, does anyone know how to release the fb in case the program which grabbed it crashed? 2011-01-04 07:18 bartbes: are you familiar with the wrapper-cleaner approach ? start process that ignores all signals it can ignore then forks the real thing. when the real thing exits, clean up. 2011-01-04 07:18 wpwrak: that.. 2011-01-04 07:18 doesn't sound too bad 2011-01-04 07:18 I can do that 2011-01-04 07:18 a signal handler 2011-01-04 07:19 thanks for the idea 2011-01-04 07:19 (case) if something silicone-based works, that could be pretty easy to make in small quantities. silicone being soft may also tolerate a fair amount of inaccuracy 2011-01-04 07:21 dabs some silicone on wood treated with improvised release agents ... oil and alcohol. we'll know how that went in ~24 hours. 2011-01-04 07:25 bartbes: not just a signal handler. the first process just waits for the other one to terminate by whatever means, be it crash, kill, or regular exit. then it cleans up the mess that was left behind. 2011-01-04 07:25 silicone is used for low-volume plastic injection 2011-01-04 07:25 from one silicone mould, you can make 10-20 pieces, of course it looses accuracy fast 2011-01-04 07:26 bartbes: for an even tougher variant, open a pipe to a daemon, let the daemon do the dirty work, the daemon waits until the pipe is closed, then cleans up 2011-01-04 07:26 bartbes: you're guaranteed that, no matter how your process died, its file descriptors will be closed (well, excepting catastrophic system failure :) 2011-01-04 07:27 yeah the thing is 2011-01-04 07:27 how would I release the fb from that 2nd (host) process? 2011-01-04 07:27 bartbes: the advantage over the wrapper approach is that they can live in different domains of the system. e.g., the daemon can be unkillable by the (non-root) user. 2011-01-04 07:28 you're seriously overthinking this.. 2011-01-04 07:28 bartbes: the 2nd process would "own" the fb. e.g., open it, set it up, then either tell the 1st process to use it, or - if necessary - pass a file descriptor. when you close the pipe, clean up. 2011-01-04 07:29 yeah, that isn't going to work 2011-01-04 07:29 bartbes: naw, that's how such things are done if failure is not an option :) 2011-01-04 07:29 I just need to clean up the fb afterwards 2011-01-04 07:29 or use a signal handler to catch sigsegv :P 2011-01-04 07:29 bartbes: why is it not going to work ? 2011-01-04 07:29 your solution is hugely impractical 2011-01-04 07:30 sigsegv has the disadvantage that you won't catch user kill, abort(), assert(), any function doing a fprintf(stderr, "moan\n"); exit(1);, etc. 2011-01-04 07:30 *sigh& 2011-01-04 07:31 you're just lazy ;-) 2011-01-04 07:32 here's a bit of code that tries to implement the concept of a daemon that "owns" the critical resource: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/libbb 2011-01-04 07:32 it's not completely tested because the underlying resource didn't work as intended at that time (kernel problem), but it should be close 2011-01-04 07:34 what you do is that you fork your daemon and open a pipe (unix domain socket) to it. the daemon opens the resource, sets it up, and passes a file descriptor back to you 2011-01-04 07:34 when you're done, you exit. daemon notices that you closed the pipe, cleans up (it still has the file descriptor), and exits as well 2011-01-04 07:35 a lot of programs rely on this mechanism in one way or another. not all of them use file descriptor passing, though, but that's just a shortcut so that i can keep my daemon simple (i.e., i don't worry much about the application doing bad things with the file descriptor, which it could in this case) 2011-01-04 07:37 wolfspraul: (silicone mould) yes. i wonder where to get this sort of materials from (here in buenos aires) 2011-01-04 07:37 wolfspraul: the alternative would be to have a mold made of something more solid, e.g., wood, and just pour the silicone inside. so the "case" itself would be silicone. 2011-01-04 07:38 I don't know, too little experience. My guess would be that a silicone case is too weak. 2011-01-04 07:38 wood may not be the greatest of materials for this sort of experiment, but it's easy to source and machine. also, if i find a release agent that works with wood, it'll work with anything ;-) 2011-01-04 07:39 but I don't know what happens if you make a case out of relatively thin silicone... no idea 2011-01-04 07:39 the moulds I know are big blocks 2011-01-04 07:40 i was thinking of a maybe 5 mm thick blob of silicone into which the pcb (or a suitable victim pcb/object) is stuck 2011-01-04 07:40 so it would hug the board very closely 2011-01-04 07:41 of course, it wouldn't really be a case, but perhaps good enough for pioneering experimenters 2011-01-04 07:48 [commit] bartbes: nlove merged in changes from love 0.7.0 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/54e3ee0 2011-01-04 07:48 wolfspraul: there ;) 2011-01-04 07:48 great!!! 2011-01-04 07:48 do we have some games? 2011-01-04 07:50 heh, I did not write them.. 2011-01-04 07:50 so yeah, it's very much a lack of users 2011-01-04 07:50 I haven't been able to track down any caanoo users though 2011-01-04 07:51 wolfspraul: for the "early adopter" wpan devices, i suppose you can credibly make them pass as experimental stuff and avoid fcc/ce ? 2011-01-04 07:51 (not sure what the exact term for "experimental" would be in this case. kit ?) 2011-01-04 07:51 oh sure 2011-01-04 07:52 I am not worried about fcc, you know I like to find out the REAL STORY anyway... 2011-01-04 07:52 perfect 2011-01-04 07:52 heh ;-) 2011-01-04 07:52 I follow the law, always have, always will, forever and ever. 2011-01-04 07:52 now we can start to work :-) 2011-01-04 07:53 what quantity do you envision ? 2011-01-04 07:53 he 2011-01-04 07:53 :-) 2011-01-04 07:53 lemme dig out a recent bom quote ... 2011-01-04 07:53 I haven't looked at it yet. 2011-01-04 07:53 I mean we have 2 boards as well 2011-01-04 07:53 (database is a few weeks old) 2011-01-04 07:54 as for how many, it depends on... lemme think 2011-01-04 07:54 how well we think it will work 2011-01-04 07:54 how fast we think we find an improvement that will make anybody buying the old version feel stupid 2011-01-04 07:54 how much I can sell them for (I can do everything at cost, but below that is painful, obviously) 2011-01-04 07:54 what else? 2011-01-04 07:54 case? certification? 2011-01-04 07:55 the price of the run will be 3000 USD at least 2011-01-04 07:55 here's atusb: http://pastebin.ca/2038148 (prices for 100 units) 2011-01-04 07:55 I cannot do anything below that, at least in a process that we would feel makes sense as part of our project. 2011-01-04 07:55 I can do some stuff in shenzhen on the street 2011-01-04 07:55 and atusd: http://pastebin.ca/2038150 2011-01-04 07:55 but that's not what we want I think 2011-01-04 07:56 so if we want proper high quality copyleft work, my minimum cost will be ca. 3000 USD 2011-01-04 07:56 you can say 1000 USD for PCB, 1000 USD for SMT, 1000 USD for components 2011-01-04 07:56 (I haven't even looked at the bom yet, just giving you ballpark numbers) 2011-01-04 07:56 the PCB can be cheaper, especially if it's 2-layer or so 2011-01-04 07:56 hmm, ~300-500 units then. quite a lot 2011-01-04 07:56 but the SMT will easily be higher 2011-01-04 07:57 lowest maybe 800 USD 2011-01-04 07:57 so let's look at the bom now :-) 2011-01-04 07:57 err, s/units/bundles/ (one atusb plus one atusd) 2011-01-04 07:57 there's always the option of doing things 'on the street' 2011-01-04 07:57 then the pcb will be shared with others, some kids will solder it together by hand, etc. 2011-01-04 07:57 parts will be taken out of whatever spare leftover box flying around 2011-01-04 07:57 and so on 2011-01-04 07:58 but it works 2011-01-04 07:58 :-) 2011-01-04 07:58 for 10 units, that system is unbeatable 2011-01-04 07:58 soldering is a bit tricky in this case, with all the RF and nasty ground planes 2011-01-04 07:58 the gnd planes are on the pcb, right? 2011-01-04 07:58 why does it affect soldering? 2011-01-04 07:58 yup 2011-01-04 07:59 you mean the amount of solder has to be controlled well? must not spill onto the gnd planes? 2011-01-04 07:59 the ground acts as a heat sink. so when you try to solder something nearby, the ground will suck away the heat 2011-01-04 07:59 well I am describing process. I can do anything 'on the street'. whether it will work, or how well, that's another question. 2011-01-04 07:59 the lowest cost there is maybe 150 USD :-) 2011-01-04 07:59 and often enough, the solder just solidifies on the (cool) ground and not on the pins 2011-01-04 07:59 for pcb, smt, components, testing (ahem) - everything 2011-01-04 08:00 still need to figure out testing. the good news is that it'll get a little easier with the new chip. 2011-01-04 08:00 that's the bom for 100 units? 2011-01-04 08:00 you cut off the total... 2011-01-04 08:01 oh, sorry ... updating 2011-01-04 08:01 well it looks like the 1000 usd I was guessing :-) 2011-01-04 08:01 it's always the same... 2011-01-04 08:01 so yeah, if we make 100, that means each will cost 30 USD 2011-01-04 08:01 to make 2011-01-04 08:01 very very roughly 2011-01-04 08:02 of course my time for free, and Adam also (maybe there is room for a little money for Adam, but not much) 2011-01-04 08:02 if you want to bring the costs down, we have to make more, like you said, maybe only 500 2011-01-04 08:02 but that may be too risky 2011-01-04 08:02 maybe we discover serious improvements 2011-01-04 08:03 or we make a case, and need to make a modification to the boards 2011-01-04 08:03 we probably will 2011-01-04 08:03 that too 2011-01-04 08:03 at 500, PCB cost is still 1000 USD, SMT still 1500 USD 2011-01-04 08:03 for 100, maybe PCB is a bit cheaper 2011-01-04 08:03 maybe even 400 USD, don't know 2011-01-04 08:03 but SMT will still be 1000 USD 2011-01-04 08:03 it's exactly the same kind of trap like with jtag-serial 2011-01-04 08:04 I bit the bullet there and made 100 in the end. 2011-01-04 08:04 very hard 2011-01-04 08:04 each one costs me 30 USD, just cash costs 2011-01-04 08:04 500 would have been much better, but that is just way too risky 2011-01-04 08:04 updating doesn't seem work. i'll just paste the totals here: atusbÂ Â 13 items, USD 932.4 2011-01-04 08:05 maybe we can make 8:10 and usb together 2011-01-04 08:05 atusd 7 items, USD 400.31 2011-01-04 08:05 (that's for 100 units each) 2011-01-04 08:05 why is atusb 500 USD more? 2011-01-04 08:05 yup, that would be the idea. you need them both anyway 2011-01-04 08:05 because of it has an MCU, a USB connector, etc. 2011-01-04 08:05 ah, and a crystal 2011-01-04 08:06 both are 2-layer? 2011-01-04 08:06 yes. 0.8 mm 2011-01-04 08:07 let's say we make a panel, maybe both atusb and atusd on the same panel? 2011-01-04 08:07 hey, btw 2011-01-04 08:07 atusd = secure digital? 2011-01-04 08:07 :-) 2011-01-04 08:07 dunno. is there any other name ? :) 2011-01-04 08:07 you don't want to take the glory of these famous and valuable trademarks, and steal intellectual property, do you? 2011-01-04 08:08 I was laughing when I got a letter from these intel lawyers once. 2011-01-04 08:08 and their 'famous' client 2011-01-04 08:08 they really write like that 2011-01-04 08:08 so many things one could reply, but what a waste of time... 2011-01-04 08:08 (panel) you'll probably have something like four of each per panel :) they're not exactly huge 2011-01-04 08:08 I'm thinking about ATUS-b and ATUS-d 2011-01-04 08:09 make ATUS the name 2011-01-04 08:09 that cuts right through the problems :-) 2011-01-04 08:09 naw, the basename is atrf :) 2011-01-04 08:09 the panel is about cost 2011-01-04 08:09 i already did one of the huge renamings 2011-01-04 08:09 if we can have both atusd and atusb on the same panel, that means only one time smt programming, for example 2011-01-04 08:09 I mean pick & place programming 2011-01-04 08:10 ah ok 2011-01-04 08:10 yup. they also share many components 2011-01-04 08:10 so I will just call both boards atrf then 2011-01-04 08:10 atrf USB version, and atrf 8:10 version? 2011-01-04 08:10 at = atmel? 2011-01-04 08:10 what's 8:10 ? :) i religiously follow the mailing list, but i never saw such a thing mentioned there :) 2011-01-04 08:10 at = atmel, yes 2011-01-04 08:10 yeah 2011-01-04 08:11 I started to write, but then didn't want to wake up sleeping dogs. 2011-01-04 08:11 atrf is the name? 2011-01-04 08:11 'at' rf sounds cool, I can live with that 2011-01-04 08:11 it's not at = atmel 2011-01-04 08:12 it's at = at something 2011-01-04 08:12 atrf is what i use when referring to the whole thing. e.g., for the tools. atrf-id and such. 2011-01-04 08:12 up to you, I follow your names 2011-01-04 08:12 so we put both atusb and atusd on the same panel 2011-01-04 08:12 originally, i thought i'd also try ti's ccXXXX series. so the naming scheme was intended for at... and cc... 2011-01-04 08:13 then i found out that TI's chips all have export restrictions 2011-01-04 08:13 as for how many in the panel, typically you ask the pick&place people first 2011-01-04 08:13 (panel) yes, there ought to be a minimum panel size and it's probably larger than atusb plus atusd 2011-01-04 08:13 for example, when it gets too long, the arm that puts the components onto the board may push it down slighly, and lift up on the other side, shifting (unsoldered) components 2011-01-04 08:13 oh sure, conveyor belt 2011-01-04 08:14 you need to have a few mm margin on the sides, and if possible optical mark as 0,0 point 2011-01-04 08:14 also, atusd is L-shaped, so you probably want two together. maybe 2*atusb + 2*atusd per panel. 2011-01-04 08:14 yes so anyway, both minimum and maximum size are typically foudn out by talking to the particular smt shop 2011-01-04 08:14 yup. adam should be able to provide some estimates 2011-01-04 08:15 my guess would be maybe 4x4 boards or so 2011-01-04 08:15 if it gets too big it's not good, adds new problems 2011-01-04 08:16 the atusb has a connector that extends beyond the edge of the board? 2011-01-04 08:16 but atusd has not, right? 2011-01-04 08:16 (names) i guess i'll change them at some point. there are more "SD" references to kill anyway, including a beautiful "uSD-Card" over in kicad-libs :) 2011-01-04 08:16 that needs to be considered for panels, so that everything can be soldered before the boards are cut 2011-01-04 08:17 this is roughly what atusb looks like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg 2011-01-04 08:17 the cutting normally will just go all the way through, you cannot cut a pcb when you have a connector on the other side 2011-01-04 08:17 or at least that adds extra complexities at that step 2011-01-04 08:17 (minus the green cable, minus the 100 mil header at the bottom, and it will be a few mm longer) 2011-01-04 08:18 nice work 2011-01-04 08:18 (cutting) do as we did at openmoko ? get the board perforated by not completely cut 2011-01-04 08:18 and then how do you cut them? 2011-01-04 08:18 thanks :) 2011-01-04 08:19 I'm just describing the most common/best understood/cheapest way 2011-01-04 08:19 how I cut them ? i cut them before soldering. 2011-01-04 08:19 so on a panel, you put all connectors that are reaching over the edge of the board pointing outwards 2011-01-04 08:19 not somewhere inside the panel 2011-01-04 08:19 how we "cut" them at openmoko ? dunno for MP. probably manually - you can just break them off at the perforation 2011-01-04 08:19 ok 2011-01-04 08:20 like I said, I just describe what I think is the normal/cheapest way 2011-01-04 08:20 don't break 2011-01-04 08:20 yes you can, but people try to avoid it 2011-01-04 08:20 you cut after reflow & dip 2011-01-04 08:20 after everything is on 2011-01-04 08:20 yeah, mechanical stress and such 2011-01-04 08:20 (if possible) 2011-01-04 08:20 but then you cannot cut where you have connectors over the edge of the board 2011-01-04 08:20 i can also try to optimize away the usb connector if you want ;-) 2011-01-04 08:21 i've done that too ... lemme find it ... 2011-01-04 08:21 because the normal cutters they have (and operators), will just cut all the way through, if you know what i Mean... :-) 2011-01-04 08:21 but it's no big deal here, with only atusb having a connector 2011-01-04 08:21 we can position it pointing outwards 2011-01-04 08:22 so maybe let's make 100 of each? 2011-01-04 08:22 pcb should be... let's say 600 USD (guess) 2011-01-04 08:22 smt... 1200 USD 2011-01-04 08:22 components 1300 USD 2011-01-04 08:22 3100 USD 2011-01-04 08:22 yield? 2011-01-04 08:23 how should we sell them? 2011-01-04 08:23 in pairs? 2011-01-04 08:23 shipping is also a pain, so cheap for fedex 2011-01-04 08:23 maybe just throw in a regular mail letter :-) that would be quite hardcore though... 2011-01-04 08:24 no tracking, no nothing 2011-01-04 08:24 what do you think about making 100 each? 2011-01-04 08:24 how many do you need? (of course you get them for free) 2011-01-04 08:25 100 sounds like a reasonable quantity to me 2011-01-04 08:25 100 each? 2011-01-04 08:25 or 50+50 2011-01-04 08:25 yup 2011-01-04 08:25 yes I think so too 2011-01-04 08:25 I hope you feel good about the design :-) 2011-01-04 08:25 and I'll just make it, he he 2011-01-04 08:26 but no worries, no risk no fun if it doesn't work, I think I made the decision with a clear state of mind 2011-01-04 08:26 how many do you need? 2011-01-04 08:26 (sell in pairs) sounds reasonable as well. dunno if people will object if they're "forced" to get one they don't think they want. but we can probably worry about that later as well :) 2011-01-04 08:26 I'm not so worried about 'forced' 2011-01-04 08:26 I'm worried to reach people that don't have much money, in the cheapest way possible. 2011-01-04 08:27 if we have 50 USD fedex cost on top, shipping an item for 20 USD is stupid 2011-01-04 08:27 it's not about forcing anyone 2011-01-04 08:27 i would need maybe 4-5 pairs for myself. have some units for rework and experiments. 2011-01-04 08:27 yes, fedex is the killer here 2011-01-04 08:27 for example, if we say 'you can only buy this in 10 pieces', then someone has to step up and organize a little group purchase 2011-01-04 08:27 if that happens, everybody can save a lot 2011-01-04 08:27 that's messy 2011-01-04 08:28 if it does not happen, we shoot ourselves in the foot 2011-01-04 08:28 you could try the distributors, though 2011-01-04 08:28 (foot) yup 2011-01-04 08:28 I am just explaining my thinking. 2011-01-04 08:28 it's not about forcing someone to buy something they don't want. not at all. 2011-01-04 08:28 lemme show you the non-connector solution. a minute ... 2011-01-04 08:28 I can ship them in a regular untrackable letter. 2011-01-04 08:28 but that will also be messy. 2011-01-04 08:28 people have to pay first, cc or paypal, and then just wait and pray. 2011-01-04 08:29 we can always offer fedex, but that only makes sense if you order 2, or even 4 right away 2011-01-04 08:29 let's say we sell them for 20 USD a piece? 2011-01-04 08:29 or 30? 2011-01-04 08:29 at 30 we could actually recoup all costs, more or less 2011-01-04 08:30 assuming no big yield problem 2011-01-04 08:30 ok it will be something like that... 2011-01-04 08:30 20-30 2011-01-04 08:30 how many do you need? 2011-01-04 08:32 here we are: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/pcbusbconn.jpg 2011-01-04 08:33 ah ok 2011-01-04 08:33 but which one do you want? 2011-01-04 08:33 it's mechanically a little fragile and you need something (plastic or such) to fatten the board 2011-01-04 08:33 yes 2011-01-04 08:33 :-) 2011-01-04 08:33 up to you :) 2011-01-04 08:33 I think we should start with a 'real' connector 2011-01-04 08:33 we don't need to load more and more problems upon us 2011-01-04 08:33 we can always optimize this later 2011-01-04 08:34 agreed? 2011-01-04 08:34 (how many I need) 4-5 pairs 2011-01-04 08:34 okay, real connector 2011-01-04 08:34 ok, 10 each for you, no problem 2011-01-04 08:35 probably gives nicer ground, too. which rf likes 2011-01-04 08:36 oh sorry you answered the 4-5 pairs thing above, didn't see it 2011-01-04 08:37 (10 each) pair = atusb + atusd. of course, if you give me 10, i can seed the local area ;-) 2011-01-04 08:37 we need to try to recoup some costs 2011-01-04 08:37 (including you) 2011-01-04 08:37 so if you think you can sell some (of course keep the cash), then I can send you a few more 2011-01-04 08:37 up to you 2011-01-04 08:38 only if we start giving away left and right, I think we will kill ourselves 2011-01-04 08:38 (shipping) there ought to be regular registered airmail with limited tracking, too. a bit like EMS, but perhaps even simpler (and cheaper) 2011-01-04 08:38 re 2011-01-04 08:38 roh: hi roh! hope you feel better :-) 2011-01-04 08:38 naah.. not that well yet. but i cope. 2011-01-04 08:39 do you know the ben-wpan aka atrf aka atusd aka atusb project Werner is working on? 2011-01-04 08:39 (give away left and right) well, they're quite cheap :) 2011-01-04 08:39 i know he is doing some rf work 2011-01-04 08:39 we are thinking about making some, maybe 100 each (there are 2 types), and thinking about case 2011-01-04 08:39 it's a 802.15.4 6LoWPAN board 2011-01-04 08:39 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg 2011-01-04 08:39 thats still 2.4ghz right? 2011-01-04 08:39 aye 2011-01-04 08:40 this is the usb version 2011-01-04 08:40 *sigh* 2011-01-04 08:40 (minus the serial header) 2011-01-04 08:40 good global band :) 2011-01-04 08:40 its small 2011-01-04 08:40 you don't like 2.4? 2011-01-04 08:40 i'll grow it by ~3 mm :) 2011-01-04 08:40 wpwrak: broken band. completely saturated with all kinds of crap. 2011-01-04 08:40 wpwrak: do you have a pic of the 8:10 version at hand? 2011-01-04 08:41 (atusd) only inserted. lemme snap one of just the board ... 2011-01-04 08:41 even worse than 434 and 868 imho, simple because more people do bandwith via it (wifi) 2011-01-04 08:42 ok, but we want to make this work now... :-) 2011-01-04 08:42 wolfspraul: case... what about a clip on case like most usbsticks use? bottom and top joined by some small noses 2011-01-04 08:42 yes, for the usb we may be able to find something like that 2011-01-04 08:42