2010-12-20 04:34 kristianpaul: no, you can write a cmake script in 5min, and contrary to plain make it handles cross-directory dependencies (almost) flawlessly 2010-12-20 05:30 wolfspraul, the amount in digi-key 2010-12-20 05:30 yes 2010-12-20 05:30 it shows 200 if you see carefully 2010-12-20 05:30 http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=94396712&uq=634284145182050648 2010-12-20 05:31 that link doesn't work for me 2010-12-20 05:31 one reel with 10000, 2010-12-20 05:31 it may be tied to some cookies or searches in your browser 2010-12-20 05:32 can you give me the digikey part-number? 2010-12-20 05:32 http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/838304-res-12k-ohm-1-10w-5-0402-smd-erj-2gej123x.html 2010-12-20 05:34 one reel with 10000, ntd 732 2010-12-20 05:35 but actually i am under digi-key member page, it shows 200 pcs for standard package 2010-12-20 05:37 if order 100pcs(crazy) with ntd48 only. 2010-12-20 05:37 I don't understand your point 2010-12-20 05:37 you have 2 options? 2010-12-20 05:37 100 pc for ntd 732 2010-12-20 05:37 10,000 pc for ntd 732 2010-12-20 05:37 sorry I meant 100pc for ntd 48 2010-12-20 05:38 100pcs for ntd 732 2010-12-20 05:38 right 2010-12-20 05:38 wait wait...i typed wrong 2010-12-20 05:38 you said 10,000pc=ntd732 2010-12-20 05:38 right 2010-12-20 05:38 100 pc=ntd48 2010-12-20 05:38 100 pcs = ntd 48 2010-12-20 05:38 correct 2010-12-20 05:38 (for the record, 1 USD = 30 ntd roughly) 2010-12-20 05:38 but the problem is what? 2010-12-20 05:39 that the 100pc come in a strip, and is hard to insert into smt machine? 2010-12-20 05:39 wherease the 10,000pc is a full reel, easy to insert into smt machine? 2010-12-20 05:39 hard and waste time in they will need connect a reel tape manually to tape that 100pcs 2010-12-20 05:40 sure 2010-12-20 05:40 with 10000 (one reel) of course, they can directly pull the tape out on the feeder of smt machine. 2010-12-20 05:40 how many parts are acceptable to not be a full reel? 2010-12-20 05:41 I guess it's a price question 2010-12-20 05:41 maybe if the reel is less than 50 usd, always choose the reel? 2010-12-20 05:41 or even if the reel is less than 100 usd, always choose the reel? 2010-12-20 05:41 it should be possible to tell boom the price point under which to always prefer a reel 2010-12-20 05:41 right now it's 0 (zero) :-) 2010-12-20 05:41 adamw_: would that help you? 2010-12-20 05:42 so it's like make clean show KITS=35 CHOOSE_REEL_IF_LESS_THAN=50 2010-12-20 05:42 then it will pick a reel whenever the reel is less than 50 USD 2010-12-20 05:42 so this quite a price question, we just need werner, yes 2010-12-20 05:42 digi-key also offer to do the reeling for you. so if you have an expensive enough component and no cheaper local alternative, that may make sense 2010-12-20 05:43 that's probably not what Adam needs 2010-12-20 05:43 boom doesn't know about reels :) 2010-12-20 05:43 like some more parameter/arg to make more sense. 2010-12-20 05:43 I think it's just about reducing the manual reeling to fewer cases where it's really valuable 2010-12-20 05:43 adamw_: do I understand your need correctly? 2010-12-20 05:44 you got my idea totally 2010-12-20 05:44 you are ok if a few key components are not in a reel, then the smt company can make a reel themselves 2010-12-20 05:44 but you don't want that for penny capacitors, it would be embarassing 2010-12-20 05:44 so I think you need one new parameter, like I said CHOOSE_REEL_IF_LESS_THAN=xxx 2010-12-20 05:44 sure..if you do this all the time..really reaaly bad 2010-12-20 05:45 how many parts are acceptable to not come in a reel form? 2010-12-20 05:45 wpwrak: yes but then we may need to teach boom about reels 2010-12-20 05:45 can't follow you 2010-12-20 05:46 hmm, tricky. we're now moving out of the "make a shopping list for device X" domain to warehouse supply management 2010-12-20 05:46 adamw_: ok, step by step 2010-12-20 05:46 let's say we have a run, 30 parts 2010-12-20 05:46 ideally for all 30 parts we have a reel 2010-12-20 05:46 so 30 reels 2010-12-20 05:46 right? 2010-12-20 05:46 that's the easiest for the SMT company 2010-12-20 05:46 ideally but no need all 2010-12-20 05:46 yes 2010-12-20 05:47 e.g. if you need twenty 100 nF caps for something, you'll probably get a reel no matter what, becasue you're sure you'll use them soonish anyway 2010-12-20 05:47 so some reels may be expensive 2010-12-20 05:47 wpwrak, of course 2010-12-20 05:47 hi! 2010-12-20 05:47 so if we have 30 parts, what would still be acceptable for the SMT place to _not_ be a reel? 2010-12-20 05:47 25 reels, and 5 stripes? 2010-12-20 05:47 20 reels and 10 stripes? 2010-12-20 05:47 so things like projected frequency of use also enter the equation 2010-12-20 05:47 15 reels and 15 stripes? 2010-12-20 05:47 no, no... 2010-12-20 05:48 wpwrak: yes but right now you have to make that decision manually 2010-12-20 05:48 for examples, if the chip package is sot-235 with high expensive 2010-12-20 05:48 i think ll this is over-engineering. don't make boom do it. let the user do it manually, but give boom a means to check that the boom "order" and the real order are compatible 2010-12-20 05:48 so the shopping list does all the calculation, but the calculation is worthless because the (cheap) reel price trumps it all 2010-12-20 05:48 i still can ask smt vendor manually pick & place it 2010-12-20 05:49 i think it ultimately has to be a manual decision. there are too many parameters. and you don't want to have to tell boom your whole produce and market development roadmap :) 2010-12-20 05:49 adamw_: which possibly is more expensive than a whole reel 2010-12-20 05:49 sometimes sot-235 chips on board are few....but for resistors / capacitors are too smaller said 0402... 2010-12-20 05:49 we talk about reels, packaging type, not development roadmap 2010-12-20 05:50 e.g., what if you're planning to switch to a different 100 nF cap (e.g., company going from X5R to X7R soon). then you'd have to override the "just get a lot" rule. 2010-12-20 05:50 sure we can define this to be outside of scope for boom 2010-12-20 05:50 but "development roadmap" sounds a little dismissive :-) 2010-12-20 05:50 wpwrak: no, then you have to buy the 'better' component in reel qty from beginning 2010-12-20 05:51 well, the roadmap determines what will be a part you need in large quantity :) 2010-12-20 05:51 this is a practical problem here, especially for small runs 2010-12-20 05:51 DocScrutinizer: what if it isn't available yet ? 2010-12-20 05:51 not about forecasting until eternity 2010-12-20 05:51 wpwrak: then that's odd 2010-12-20 05:51 and actually it's easy. if the reel is < 100 USD, buy the reel. 2010-12-20 05:51 DocScrutinizer: sometimes, companies do announce their changes ;-)) 2010-12-20 05:51 just that boom cannot be told that, so it needs to be done manually. 2010-12-20 05:51 DocScrutinizer, sorry i don't understand your question. could you explain more? 2010-12-20 05:52 adamw_: I put no question 2010-12-20 05:52 does digikey have the same part number for all package types? 2010-12-20 05:52 wolfspraul: USD 100 is just an arbitrary limit. if it's a more expensive part but you still expect to need a lot, you'd need to override this rule again 2010-12-20 05:52 wolfspraul: naw, part numbers connect messily 2010-12-20 05:53 the best is probably to do what boom currently does - give you a "shopping list" for precisely what you asked for. that gives you the information you need for general price evaluation 2010-12-20 05:53 not 'override again' 2010-12-20 05:54 the logic is inherently different for articles < 1 cent and > 1 USD. and that will never change. 2010-12-20 05:54 then, as a further step, find a reel for all the parts, and price that 2010-12-20 05:54 if boom is about sourcing then such 'real world' (price related) stuff is at least something to consider. 2010-12-20 05:54 I mean it is doing it already, with factoring in volume discounts. 2010-12-20 05:55 reel or not reel seems like a practical concern 2010-12-20 05:55 i don't think it will ever pick reels right now, because they're always a bit more expensive than just a cut tape 2010-12-20 05:55 so if you would tell boom "choose a reel if the reel is < xxx usd", then maybe the part numbers it would come up with would be entirely different 2010-12-20 05:55 otherwise this work simply has to be done manually, although I think it could easily be automated 2010-12-20 05:56 i would do it manually, with boom assisting 2010-12-20 05:56 in that case boom doesn't need to do a lot of math around 'volume discounts' either 2010-12-20 05:56 so, step 1: make the current list 2010-12-20 05:56 component sourcing is hard to automate 2010-12-20 05:56 if this will be dismissed totally first of all, to consider the reel question 2010-12-20 05:57 you'll always need a last human instance 2010-12-20 05:57 step 2: combine any set of orders and get reel pricing. then pick what you like. 2010-12-20 05:57 DocScrutinizer: exactly ! 2010-12-20 05:57 nobody doubts that. delete boom? 2010-12-20 05:57 :-) 2010-12-20 05:58 we are trying to find out what makes sense automating 2010-12-20 05:58 shopping list makes sense 2010-12-20 05:58 how do you get reel pricing? 2010-12-20 05:58 boom picks a part number 2010-12-20 05:58 the shopping has to be done by a human 2010-12-20 05:58 wpwrak, at the beginning I surely agreed that in the end before entering web system to order...it indeeds 'manually' on 'shopping'. 2010-12-20 05:59 but if you would consider reels, you may be better off with an entirely different manufacturer, because you can get a reel from them, or under that (other) part number? 2010-12-20 05:59 digi-key usually have a "different packaging" list. you could also look for a match in vendor part number. 2010-12-20 05:59 then consider shipping cost for example. how to handle that? 2010-12-20 05:59 so the question will be what's the goal for boom now? without reel determined? 2010-12-20 06:00 (different manufacturer) yes, that would be a problem case where you'd need to integrate 2010-12-20 06:00 ok I look at a specific example 2010-12-20 06:00 adamw_: it tells you what parts fit and have good prices :) 2010-12-20 06:00 ordering several type of components at one retailer might be more economic even when the particular pricetag is a bit higer 2010-12-20 06:00 make KITS=35 in mmone-jtag-serial tells me to buy 40 of 311-1028-1-ND 2010-12-20 06:01 wpwrak, yeah.. 2010-12-20 06:01 it indeeds does now, but if trying to think we're producing 200pcs, 500pcs and etc.. 2010-12-20 06:02 I go to digikey, see the 'alternate package' box 2010-12-20 06:02 automatic ordering can be done only if you got a good deal with a retailer who guarantees you get the best price always when ordering all your stuff at them 2010-12-20 06:02 it tells me the part-number for the (10,000pc) reel is 311-1028-2-ND 2010-12-20 06:03 DocScrutinizer: have you looked at boom? 2010-12-20 06:03 nah. not at all 2010-12-20 06:03 yeah :-) 2010-12-20 06:03 your comments make sense, but we are trying to optimize boom... 2010-12-20 06:03 optimize could mean let it do more or less 2010-12-20 06:03 DocScrutinizer: how could they do this ? if you order 100 cheap parts, how can they tell that, by the end of next year, you'll have needed a reel ? 2010-12-20 06:03 but boom had to understand pidgin fineprint to make anything like that possible 2010-12-20 06:04 let's focus pragmatically 2010-12-20 06:04 some tedious work steps can be automated, so they should 2010-12-20 06:04 wolfspraul:Â Â if all you need are 40 such caps on a reel, the digi-reel would be your cheapest option 2010-12-20 06:04 some work steps require too much review/thinking 2010-12-20 06:04 some work steps are so quick and difficult to automate that it's also not worth it 2010-12-20 06:04 those things are all clear, but we already have boom and try to move it forward 2010-12-20 06:05 wpwrak: ok so back to that example, I look at 311-1028-2-ND and it's 18.54 USD 2010-12-20 06:05 the thing is, how does boom know that a part will be popular for you ? where is the database with your production forcast ? 2010-12-20 06:05 the digi-reel option is 311-1028-6-ND 2010-12-20 06:05 popular? 2010-12-20 06:05 I talk about ordering for 1 small run 2010-12-20 06:05 the one and only ever 2010-12-20 06:05 for 40 caps, the digi-reel is USD 7.44 2010-12-20 06:05 after that the project will die immediately 2010-12-20 06:06 digi-reel then 2010-12-20 06:06 adam's feedback makes sense to me 2010-12-20 06:06 or maybe your smt fab does the reeling at a lower cost than digi-key 2010-12-20 06:06 come to the smt place with 40 cut pieces with penny caps and resistors, and they will hate you, or make you pay more right there 2010-12-20 06:06 because they will look at you and think "how can you be so stupid" 2010-12-20 06:06 add a fix amount punishment to price of low qty (i.e. *no* reel), for handling at fab etc 2010-12-20 06:06 of course they'll make you pay for it :) 2010-12-20 06:07 digi-reel is also a reel, I would think 2010-12-20 06:07 not stupid, skimpy ;-) 2010-12-20 06:07 so there is no need (in this discussion/context) to distinguish between digi-reel and manufacturer reel 2010-12-20 06:07 yes, it's digi-key taking the cut tape, adding a bit of empty tape at begining and end, and winding it on a reel 2010-12-20 06:08 sure exactly what the smt shop would do 2010-12-20 06:08 digi key may have perfected this system, who knows, so they might well be competitive even with a chinese smt place 2010-12-20 06:08 dont' know 2010-12-20 06:08 i think the cost of making a digi-reel is 7 USD flat (to this, add the component cost) 2010-12-20 06:08 so it's (nn * $/unit)+punishment vs price-of-reel_whatever 2010-12-20 06:08 well still comes back to my variable then 2010-12-20 06:09 DocScrutinizer: yes, that may work 2010-12-20 06:09 however, this still doesn't catch the "order a lot of popular parts even if you need only a few now" 2010-12-20 06:09 but boom would need to know what is a reel or not a reel 2010-12-20 06:09 right, i know digi-key's digi-reel package is that what wverner said 2010-12-20 06:09 that's a separate case 2010-12-20 06:10 this is good, but not for long term solution in boom? 2010-12-20 06:10 we can say that both cases are outside of scope for boom, or one, or none 2010-12-20 06:10 I even have such reels from OM here :-D (the junk pile in front of office) 2010-12-20 06:10 I haven't look deep enough into boom to see how hard it would be for it to know what is a reel and what not a reel 2010-12-20 06:11 that knowledge could then be factored in (economically as specified by the user, or just with reasonable defaults) 2010-12-20 06:11 one problem with digi-reels is that they don't have a catalog price. so you have to go to digi-key and ask "how much would this be for N components" 2010-12-20 06:11 do you know how they calculate them? 2010-12-20 06:12 always + 7 USD? 2010-12-20 06:12 I'd offer a table of alternatives to user, incl price/unit, price-total (with and without any punishment) and a URL 2010-12-20 06:12 the you go thru the list 2010-12-20 06:12 for each component 2010-12-20 06:12 no other way 2010-12-20 06:12 also they may not have the digi-reel option for every component, I would think 2010-12-20 06:12 let's say we have a more complex board like m1. 550 components. 2010-12-20 06:12 what i remember seeing so far was alwaya USD 7 2010-12-20 06:13 yes, not having digi-reel would be another issue 2010-12-20 06:13 so with boom right now, it will give let's say 100-200 part numbers that all need to be manually adjusted because you cannot tell boom to prioritize reels. 2010-12-20 06:13 wolfspraul: reduce that figure of 550 by a factor of maybe 0.25, for many components are same type 2010-12-20 06:13 e.g 100nF, 1kR 2010-12-20 06:14 I think it comes down to reel vs. non-reel. because that is an economic issue once you have a pick&place machine. 2010-12-20 06:14 550 different component ?!? are you guys mad ? ;-) 2010-12-20 06:14 not different 2010-12-20 06:14 ah, good :) 2010-12-20 06:14 but I'm sure if we would run it through boom, we would have a lot of part numbers that would need manual adjustment only for the lack of considering the reel thing. 2010-12-20 06:14 and it won't get better for a run of 100, 200, 500. 2010-12-20 06:15 right now, it'll never pick a reel, because they're always more expensive 2010-12-20 06:15 the shopping list boom creates would be a lot more valuable in such a run, if boom would consider reel priority 2010-12-20 06:16 so the first thing to do with a boom shopping list would be to take out everything < 100 usd, and manually go through to fix the reel issue 2010-12-20 06:16 or let's say everything < 50 usd 2010-12-20 06:16 what i can get from digi-key is the the reel price. there are some other things like tray and "box and reel" (?) 2010-12-20 06:16 what i can't easily get is the digi-reel price 2010-12-20 06:17 tray is mostly for expensive parts, I think 2010-12-20 06:17 like the spartan-6 2010-12-20 06:17 big parts 2010-12-20 06:17 yup 2010-12-20 06:17 and trays (the plastic) are cheap 2010-12-20 06:17 so even if you order 5 pc, they may send you a tray with the other slots empty 2010-12-20 06:17 or maybe they cut it out somehow 2010-12-20 06:18 nope 2010-12-20 06:18 either way I think this is not an issue on the smt side (adam can correct me) 2010-12-20 06:18 or make it a moq ;-) 2010-12-20 06:18 so tray should be fine for now, I wouldn't know what boom should do with the knowledge of trays 2010-12-20 06:18 maybe I find out later :-) 2010-12-20 06:19 bulk is nasty too 2010-12-20 06:19 i got few parts from mouser they are empty even used broken tray! 2010-12-20 06:19 lovely :) 2010-12-20 06:19 adamw_: are such broken trays a problem for the SMT shop? 2010-12-20 06:19 wolfspraul: bulk is where cheap chinese manual labour shines (-:C 2010-12-20 06:19 or other 'partial' trays? 2010-12-20 06:20 but on smt side, smt technician will definitely put those pulk chips on their standard tray! 2010-12-20 06:20 maybe it's enough if boom knows about the package type, and then when creating the shopping list you can tell it a) pick all reels b) no bulk 2010-12-20 06:20 sure...they will change.. 2010-12-20 06:20 then you can run it multiple times, and then start thinking or combining yourself 2010-12-20 06:21 pls be realistically, they are economical business. 2010-12-20 06:21 about what? 2010-12-20 06:21 realistic about what? 2010-12-20 06:21 wpwrak: what is 'box and reel'? 2010-12-20 06:22 on put bulk chips on their standard tray, they have a lot of different trays. 2010-12-20 06:22 but if parts come with MOQ tray, they don't need to do 'change' work. 2010-12-20 06:22 ah, it's tape & box 2010-12-20 06:23 same story on all packages on smt vendors 2010-12-20 06:24 adamw_: when will they keep using the tray we provide, and when switch to their own trays? 2010-12-20 06:24 wpwrak: so can/should we teach boom about reel, or bulk? 2010-12-20 06:25 the minimum is probably only that it knows yes/no (when known) for each item, then it could exclude some if requested 2010-12-20 06:25 broken tray..or/and their platform is not enough to collect lot of chips inside of machine. 2010-12-20 06:26 (tape and box) ah, here's an example http://www.vishay.com/doc?28325 2010-12-20 06:26 page 2, "taped in box (ammopack)" 2010-12-20 06:26 for cases when a reel gets inconvenient, i guess 2010-12-20 06:27 big components 2010-12-20 06:27 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:YamahaYV88X_IPCMotherBoard2.ogv 2010-12-20 06:27 all space inside of smt platform, they will use it as possible. 2010-12-20 06:28 (tray) there may also be recommended quantities 2010-12-20 06:28 the milkymist one bom lists 92 different part numbers btw, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/bom/rc2/milkymist_one_bom_rc2.ods 2010-12-20 06:28 (only for reference to earlier discussion) 2010-12-20 06:28 if all I ordered parts in all broken 'tray'...means mounting time is wasting! 2010-12-20 06:29 okay, 92 sounds reasonable :) 2010-12-20 06:29 i ordered all for reels on resistors/capacitors...some sot-235 is also reel too 2010-12-20 06:30 adamw_: so, in general, how do you make sure you don't get broken trays ? with digi-key, there are hints in the catalog (minimum order or "standard size"). but do all suppliers give you this information ? 2010-12-20 06:30 but yes , if 100pcs, 200pcs run...later project died! 2010-12-20 06:30 I guess the work to optimize this is so much overengineering it, the ROI break even will be on >30 huge designs, if ever 2010-12-20 06:30 I'll always ask MOQ! 2010-12-20 06:31 MOQ tray won't be broken one. 2010-12-20 06:31 adamw_: what if they don't have a MOQ but break the tray if you go below "X" ? 2010-12-20 06:31 DocScrutinizer: you could have made that point way before we started boom. so far it's shaping up nicely, you should check it out :-) 2010-12-20 06:31 (e.g., what you said happened with mouser) 2010-12-20 06:31 "X"?...can't follow..sorry 2010-12-20 06:32 of course a tool needs to be economic, but that's the point of the discussion here, to find out what the potential value of the automation would be, and how hard it is to automate... 2010-12-20 06:32 X would be the quantity in a tray 2010-12-20 06:32 wolfspraul: I'm not saying bom isn't worth it. I just think arificial intelligence isn't anything that will fly there 2010-12-20 06:32 we are far away from that, and all agree 2010-12-20 06:33 hard to determine...but I would rather not less than 70~80% qty 2010-12-20 06:33 if less than 50% with empty, they finally hate you if eveytime run like this! 2010-12-20 06:34 one day Sharism will be kicked out from their customer. 2010-12-20 06:34 DocScrutinizer: http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/boom/README 2010-12-20 06:35 it's a nice intro, you can glance over it... 2010-12-20 06:36 adamw_: yes, my question is how you can find out what quantity you need to order to avoid this. what do you do if their MOQ is 1 ? do all suppliers indicate in the catalog when it is a tray ? and do they all indicate the tray size ? 2010-12-20 06:36 (or is it okay to just ignore those suppliers that don't provide this information in their catalog ?) 2010-12-20 06:37 all incredibly hard to automate 2010-12-20 06:37 ok I see the 'taped in box (ammopack)' in the datasheet. but if we all don't know what it is or when one would prefer that, I guess that means no need to consider now? :-) first need to understand what it is... 2010-12-20 06:37 wolfspraul: i think i can get "reel yes/no" for full reels reliably out of digi-key. with others, i don't know yet how well their databases are structured. 2010-12-20 06:37 wpwrak, I always ask their MOQ, so I know what tray size they will definitely use. but this info sometimes is hard to get. 2010-12-20 06:37 wolfspraul: (ammobox) but you understand the concept ? 2010-12-20 06:37 most of this I 'asked' them. 2010-12-20 06:38 DocScrutinizer: it's already working. we are finetuning :-) 2010-12-20 06:38 adamw_: ah, i was afraid of that :-( 2010-12-20 06:38 wpwrak: no I don't understand ammobox 2010-12-20 06:38 wolfspraul: tape in a box is just that I guess. They have a paper box with the tape folded in, so you pull out of box like you'd pull off a reel 2010-12-20 06:38 adamw_: do you know what 'taped in box (ammopack)' means, and especially - when one would want/prefer that? 2010-12-20 06:38 wolfspraul: adamw_: yes, my question is how you can find out what quantity you need to order to avoid this. what do you do if their MOQ is 1 ? do all suppliers indicate in the catalog when it is a tray ? and do they all indicate the tray size ? 2010-12-20 06:38 wpwrak, yeah..i know you want boom at least can point to somewhere or info can show MOQ, right? 2010-12-20 06:39 wolfspraul: okay, it's a tape/belt in a box in a zigzag pattern. like the ammunition belt for a machine gun 2010-12-20 06:39 he 2010-12-20 06:39 that analogy doesn't help me either :-) 2010-12-20 06:39 let me google a bit 2010-12-20 06:39 wolfspraul: doesn't sound like finetuning. And the fineprint read to find out about such details isn't automatable 2010-12-20 06:39 "ammunition belt for machine gun" should find some pics... 2010-12-20 06:39 wolfspraul: not sure how important it is to have the box in this case, since it seems to be a less optimized process than tape & reel 2010-12-20 06:40 so I'm wondering who would want this 2010-12-20 06:40 wolfspraul, don't understand ammbox. 2010-12-20 06:40 i think it's for components that are too fat for tape & reel 2010-12-20 06:40 but it sounds like an exotic problem compared to the much simpler 'reel or not' (which seems like will always pop up), or the already slighly more complicated tray sizing stuff 2010-12-20 06:41 I think we don't need to think about ammobox now, at least I don't feel the urge :-) 2010-12-20 06:41 things like this: http://www.vishay.com/doc?28325 2010-12-20 06:41 you'd need a very big (wide) reel for them 2010-12-20 06:41 wolfspraul: I think there are SMT machines that can take more boxes than reels 2010-12-20 06:41 the reels probably have maximum widths 2010-12-20 06:41 maybe even coming from the pick & place machine 2010-12-20 06:42 it vaguely sounds like something that only may make sense for very large runs? 2010-12-20 06:42 or maybe if the reel is too wide and some SMT machines cannot handle it as a reel? 2010-12-20 06:43 yes 2010-12-20 06:43 so if boom would know reel yes/no I think that would be a start 2010-12-20 06:43 you need to ask your SMT provider 2010-12-20 06:43 if that is easy to add 2010-12-20 06:43 no need this problem is 100% hypothetical now 2010-12-20 06:44 werner just tried to make a point that there are even more packaging options out there :-) 2010-12-20 06:44 and what are the pkgng options your SMT will accept happily, and which they frown at or simply reject or charge you a fortune? 2010-12-20 06:45 for trays my understanding is that it's already a bit more difficult, maybe I look at a specific example too 2010-12-20 06:45 here's a good picture: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XWrZEi64C7w/R09wXN4DYcI/AAAAAAAAASo/EubX0l3twr8/s1600-R/negev_3.jpg 2010-12-20 06:45 adamw_: do we have something in jtag-serial that is on a tray? 2010-12-20 06:45 maybe even better: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XWrZEi64C7w/R09wW94DYaI/AAAAAAAAASY/HpZYGXcf3ow/s1600-R/negev_2.jpg 2010-12-20 06:46 hell, tape in box is supposed to be exactly specified, just like diameter etc of a reel. to the 0.1mm 2010-12-20 06:47 DocScrutinizer: (boxes) when you have a box-fed machine, will it be difficult to feed it just with a bit of tape ? (like it is for tape & reel) 2010-12-20 06:47 no tray this time. 2010-12-20 06:47 even 64-QFN will be tape reel. 2010-12-20 06:47 m1 rc2 had have! 2010-12-20 06:48 DocScrutinizer: (exact spec) hehe ;-) 2010-12-20 06:48 wpwrak: are we reaching consensus that boom should know about reel yes/no? 2010-12-20 06:48 wpwrak: I think you need a lead-in on every tape. and you need a way to stash away the whole supply. If you got a stip of tape with leadin and just one component at end, you'll for sure not need any box 2010-12-20 06:48 no question about that 2010-12-20 06:48 the issue is how :) 2010-12-20 06:49 DocScrutinizer: okay, still the lead-in issue then. hmm. 2010-12-20 06:49 other than that it's mostly irrelevant if reel or box or short stip 2010-12-20 06:49 srtipe 2010-12-20 06:49 wolfspraul: i didn't think of fractioned trays either. interesting issue :) 2010-12-20 06:49 meh 2010-12-20 06:49 well let's start with reels 2010-12-20 06:49 since that pops up as a labor intensive issue even on the first little jtag-serial test run 2010-12-20 06:50 I'm sure if we get to bigger boards the reel issue will get bigger too 2010-12-20 06:50 there's a reason digikey has digi-reel :-) 2010-12-20 06:50 digi-key have the "standard package". maybe that's a good to use as a "soft moq" 2010-12-20 06:50 WUT, you finally got proper JTAG over the whole zoo? 2010-12-20 06:50 of course, is many cases it seems just some random number.... 2010-12-20 06:51 I think the tray cases are rare 2010-12-20 06:51 adamw_: do you remember how many parts in m1 rc2 were on a tray? 2010-12-20 06:51 the bom has 92 different parts 2010-12-20 06:53 maybe 10 connectors, all manual dip soldering 2010-12-20 06:53 I would think not more than 5 on tray? 2010-12-20 06:53 flash/video decoder/ethernet chip/spartan-6/audo codec/vga encoder >>Â Â 6 2010-12-20 06:55 very close guess :) 2010-12-20 06:55 some part for mechanicals are also tray...well...those are through process. 2010-12-20 06:55 through hole 2010-12-20 06:56 ok so let's say ca. 70 on reels 2010-12-20 06:56 maybe 60 2010-12-20 06:56 so .. potential workflow: 0) assume boom knows what is reel and what not. 1) run the thing requiring reels. 2) from this list, select what you like. 3) run again, skipping the reels you already selected. 2010-12-20 06:57 and either we buy a reel, or the smt place makes a reel, digi-reel style, which costs time & money that someone has to pay 2010-12-20 06:58 at 2), the reels you select could be put into an inventory of sunken cost (just for this run), so they'd show up as USD 0 for the 2nd stage and thus always get preferred over ordering new stuff 2010-12-20 06:59 so far, so good. now, what information do you (human) need to "select what you like" ? 2010-12-20 07:00 between 1st and 2nd stage, you could also manually add digi-reels. or make a 3rd/Nth stage, whatever. 2010-12-20 07:03 how do you know which one to skip? 2010-12-20 07:04 right now prettyprint only leaves the description, which may differ 2010-12-20 07:04 oh, you'd have to recombine the stages for pretty-printing 2010-12-20 07:04 (we already said elsewhere prettyprint should also list the schematics references) 2010-12-20 07:04 ah OK 2010-12-20 07:05 so you are before prettyprint? 2010-12-20 07:05 all the output stuff is very as-hocish 2010-12-20 07:05 I mostly looked at prettyprint output so far 2010-12-20 07:05 hmm 2010-12-20 07:05 good idea with the reels going into inventory 2010-12-20 07:07 you would basically need two catalogs: one with reels, one without. then run the query on the one with reels. get a lot of complains about stuff that can't be found, plus a list of reels. reject the ones you don't like. then take the list and add those things to your "things we already know we're ordering" inventory 2010-12-20 07:07 then run again on the non-reel catalog 2010-12-20 07:09 the manually find out what to do with those cut tapes. get the digi-reel price ? ask the smt fab ? bring them to the ACME (A Chinese Makes Everything) shop at the corner who'll reel them for a third the money ? 2010-12-20 07:09 rather complex workflow 2010-12-20 07:10 I don't think you need to consider the ACME, it's not a real option 2010-12-20 07:10 another issue is that it, in this form, is strictly a pipeline. if you change something at the top, things further down may no longer make sense 2010-12-20 07:10 if digikey adds 7 usd I doubt any place, even in china, can do it for less 2010-12-20 07:11 that's a big misconception that quality people cost nothing, the people that think like that routinely fail in China/Taiwan 2010-12-20 07:11 e.g., if you get resistors from stackpole insead of rohm, you'll have to remember that there's a rohm entry in your "sunken inventory" and delete it 2010-12-20 07:11 so the smt place may 'eat' that cost, if it's just a few reels 2010-12-20 07:11 but it's going to be at least aroudn 10 USD for them as well, with their people, overhead, etc. 2010-12-20 07:11 maybe even this same 7 USD 2010-12-20 07:12 say the m1 rc2 run we pay the smt maybe 1,500 USD, for everything 2010-12-20 07:12 they are willing to do maybe 5 reels? maybe 10 at most? 2010-12-20 07:12 5*7 = 35 usd, 5*10=70 2010-12-20 07:12 dunno how digi-key calculate that price. they may also want to make it a bit more expensive than strictly necessary to make you order more reels 2010-12-20 07:12 so they won't add it to your bill 2010-12-20 07:13 I doubt it, it's a service, I'm sure it has a good margin for them, it creates value to their customers, etc. etc. 2010-12-20 07:13 let me think about your proposed workflow a bit more 2010-12-20 07:13 maybe ask your smt fab folks once. "what if i sent you a lot of tapes - would you kill me ? how much would you charge ? is it always a pain or only if i surprise you ?" 2010-12-20 07:13 (btw, we are too fast for Adam, so he will just lean back. I told him we are trying to process his feedback :-)) 2010-12-20 07:13 wpwrak: I can tell you that already. 2010-12-20 07:14 for larger runs, it's not an issue since everything will be on a reel anyway. 2010-12-20 07:14 for smaller runs, mostly they do the business with you because they hope for future larger runs. 2010-12-20 07:14 so they are 'subsidizing' those small runs already 2010-12-20 07:14 ah, that again :) 2010-12-20 07:14