2010-12-17 00:09 <qwebirc58347> were can i get the wifi chip at for the nanonote
2010-12-17 00:22 <kristianpaul> rxvt: hi
2010-12-17 00:22 <kristianpaul> check this http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote_Wi-Fi
2010-12-17 00:22 <rxvt> kristianpaul: i couldnt find anything on there about buying one of the chips
2010-12-17 00:23 <kristianpaul> hmm
2010-12-17 00:24 <adamwang> wolfspraul, wpwrak : you there?
2010-12-17 00:26 <adamwang> 4.65mm - 3.6 mm = 1.05 mm, 7.6 mm + 1.05 mm = 8.65 mm
2010-12-17 00:27 <adamwang> now P1 (Digi -Key) S7002-ND the height is 8.5mm
2010-12-17 00:30 <adamwang> J5 (2.6mm + 6mm = 8.6mm), but actually only 6mm, so i need to find a P1 with 6.05 mm (8.65mm - 2.6mm = 6.05mm)
2010-12-17 00:30 <adamwang> hope I don't calculate in wrong
2010-12-17 00:34 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-12-17 00:34 <wolfspraul> hope we can find this
2010-12-17 00:34 <wolfspraul> now we have already shipped out m1, so if anything we need to make the adjustment on the jtag-serial side
2010-12-17 00:34 <adamwang> yes, i am finding..:)
2010-12-17 00:34 <wolfspraul> maybe clip off the 4-pin serial header on jtag-serial? that's what yanjun luo ended up doing
2010-12-17 00:35 <wolfspraul> but it's a bit hard to clip it off, because it's a female version so it has metal, plastic, all together
2010-12-17 00:35 <adamwang> yeah...it's a female type
2010-12-17 00:36 <adamwang> will ugly with poor quality if crop it on jtag/serial brd.
2010-12-17 00:36 <adamwang> well..let find digi-key parts first :)
2010-12-17 01:28 <adamwang> wolfspraul, http://www.mouser.com/Interconnects/Rectangular-Connectors/Headers-Wire-Housings/_/N-7aunt?P=1z0wxp7Z1z0z63xZ1z0wxp6Z1z0wxp8Z1yzv7x1
2010-12-17 01:28 <adamwang> go to the lowest two links(datasheet)
2010-12-17 01:29 <adamwang> sorry, the last second and third one
2010-12-17 01:31 <wolfspraul> ok go on
2010-12-17 01:33 <adamwang> or this (low profile from 3M)http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/3M-Electronic-Solutions-Division/929984-01-04/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtsLRyDR9nM19IUZhCvwtX27JEp18A0Hio%3d
2010-12-17 01:34 <wolfspraul> actually I don't know how boom can generate a shopping list for multiple distributors
2010-12-17 01:34 <wolfspraul> right now it only displays one list, and the p/n are digikey numbers
2010-12-17 01:34 <adamwang> the P1 I calculated is 6.05mm AT MOST. So we should can use 3M low profle
2010-12-17 01:35 <wolfspraul> so you will get this from mouser?
2010-12-17 01:35 <adamwang> i know, this P2 temporarily we may pick from other distributer
2010-12-17 01:35 <wolfspraul> how about the jtag (7*2) connector?
2010-12-17 01:35 <wolfspraul> also mouser, or that one digikey?
2010-12-17 01:35 <adamwang> can use that one in Digi-Key (79109-1006)
2010-12-17 01:36 <adamwang> of course if later we found omst of shipping list can buy from mouser, then we buy from mouser.
2010-12-17 01:37 <adamwang> right now , i don't know. i just tried to find the parts I am worrying first.
2010-12-17 01:38 <wolfspraul> yes sure
2010-12-17 01:38 <adamwang> other electronic parts should be ok.
2010-12-17 01:38 <adamwang> how do you think?
2010-12-17 01:38 <wolfspraul> I can discuss with wpwrak how we can extend boom to multiple distributors (it's already possible, just needs a bit of work at the surface)
2010-12-17 01:38 <wolfspraul> yes sure, all good
2010-12-17 01:38 <wolfspraul> only keep us posted for any differences from the shopping list boom generates right now
2010-12-17 01:38 <adamwang> let me first review all parts done in shopping list and memo the new links I found first.
2010-12-17 01:39 <wolfspraul> so for everything on that list that you actually don't buy, or buy in another quantity, or from another source, I would like to update boom
2010-12-17 01:39 <wolfspraul> but you should definitely move ahead and just get these things produced
2010-12-17 01:39 <wolfspraul> boom has to be able to handle reality :-)
2010-12-17 01:39 <wolfspraul> so no waiting
2010-12-17 01:40 <adamwang> yes..i just recorded on my BOOKSHELF first then we determine later...
2010-12-17 01:40 <wolfspraul> those connectors will always need to be matched manually anyway, I'm sure. that's not worth trying to automate in boom.
2010-12-17 01:40 <wolfspraul> good, yes
2010-12-17 01:40 <adamwang> cu
2010-12-17 01:40 <wolfspraul> [bookshelf]
2010-12-17 02:53 <adamwang> wpwrak, wolfspraul when i use 'dsv' to review bookshelf, the bookshelf itself only shows few components(or just classify simply already).
2010-12-17 02:54 <adamwang> from bookshelf it seems that I can not sure for example resistors or capacitors will be missed? is it possible?
2010-12-17 02:56 <adamwang> because i can see the final 'make show' parts list with every part without doubting.
2010-12-17 02:58 <wolfspraul> that was too fast for me
2010-12-17 02:58 <wolfspraul> dsv and boom are two totally separate tools
2010-12-17 02:58 <wolfspraul> which one do you want to talk about - dsv or boom?
2010-12-17 03:01 <wolfspraul> adamwang: got disconnected...
2010-12-17 03:02 <wolfspraul> dsv and boom are 2 totally separate tools
2010-12-17 03:02 <wolfspraul> dsv works with BOOKSHELF, that's all
2010-12-17 03:03 <wolfspraul> adamwang: is your question about dsv or boom?
2010-12-17 03:04 <adamwang> i'm trying to understanding the system more. when I review footprint of 1206/0603/0402 package
2010-12-17 03:05 <adamwang> i have many ways can review: one from layout/or gerber file, one from shopping list (digi-key)backward to check if the part link is correct.
2010-12-17 03:07 <adamwang> so i am now from the shopping list backward to review actually footprints used in PCBnew.
2010-12-17 03:07 <wolfspraul> we should pull all links to PDF files into BOOKSHELF
2010-12-17 03:08 <adamwang> wow..damn it. current bookshelf itself doesn't have resistors and capacitors' pdf link.
2010-12-17 03:08 <adamwang> so you're saying i need to do this now?
2010-12-17 03:09 <wolfspraul> let's do one together
2010-12-17 03:09 <wolfspraul> which one are you looking at?
2010-12-17 03:10 <wolfspraul> it's not that bad :-) BOOKSHELF has 12 entries right now
2010-12-17 03:11 <wolfspraul> let's add one...
2010-12-17 03:11 <wolfspraul> for example the 33pF capacitor
2010-12-17 03:11 <wolfspraul> digikey p/n is 311-1020-1-ND, as shown by boom
2010-12-17 03:12 <adamwang> yes, go on
2010-12-17 03:13 <wolfspraul> digikey says the datasheet is http://www.yageo.com/documents/recent/UPY-GP_NP0_16V-to-50V_4.pdf
2010-12-17 03:13 <adamwang> ok...now you don't need to do this
2010-12-17 03:13 <adamwang> i do this on my site
2010-12-17 03:13 <wolfspraul> wait a sec
2010-12-17 03:17 <qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added 33pF 0402 capacitor to BOOKSHELF http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/34eaee8
2010-12-17 03:17 <wolfspraul> adamwang: hmm
2010-12-17 03:17 <wolfspraul> it worked
2010-12-17 03:17 <wolfspraul> so I added a new entry to BOOKSHELF, also with the aliases C1 and C3
2010-12-17 03:17 <wolfspraul> then I ran "dsv setup BOOKSHELF" to download the new file
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> now I can do "dsv C1"
2010-12-17 03:18 <adamwang> yes, i know your way.
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> the I dit git commit -a and git push.
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> so right now, dsv and boom are totally separate.
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> that means boom can choose another capacitor, and dsv will not know about it.
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> for example when we add mouser to boom.
2010-12-17 03:18 <wolfspraul> or a new capacitor manufacturer
2010-12-17 03:19 <wolfspraul> dsv is simply a small tool to manage pdf files
2010-12-17 03:19 <wolfspraul> I think this is good right now, we can start like this.
2010-12-17 03:19 <wolfspraul> we cannot design all tools perfect at the beginning, we have to start using them, and then slowly improve.
2010-12-17 03:19 <wolfspraul> so right now, you just add those PDF links manually into BOOKSHELF, even though boom does not know about BOOKSHELF.
2010-12-17 03:20 <wolfspraul> then we can discuss with Werner how to improve the tools. Slowly because we have a long todo list of things we want to improve :-)
2010-12-17 03:20 <wolfspraul> what do you think?
2010-12-17 03:20 <adamwang> yes, agreed.
2010-12-17 03:21 <adamwang> but my gaol today is to determine order all them from Digikey or Mouser.
2010-12-17 03:21 <adamwang> if to do all of them...man.
2010-12-17 03:22 <wolfspraul> not that many missing
2010-12-17 03:22 <wolfspraul> I can add them if you like, including the aliases for schematics references
2010-12-17 03:22 <adamwang> yeah..
2010-12-17 03:22 <wolfspraul> no problem
2010-12-17 03:22 <wolfspraul> should I do that?
2010-12-17 03:22 <adamwang> no
2010-12-17 03:23 <adamwang> 311-1020-1-ND from shopping list it says 10 pcs for one set?
2010-12-17 03:23 <wolfspraul> we need 2 for one jtag-serial, and probably the price for 10 is lower than for 2
2010-12-17 03:23 <adamwang> but from schematic I only see TWO.
2010-12-17 03:23 <adamwang> am i wrong?
2010-12-17 03:23 <wolfspraul> digikey only sells 10
2010-12-17 03:24 <wolfspraul> remember that boom uses a real digikey database
2010-12-17 03:24 <wolfspraul> including volume discounts
2010-12-17 03:24 <wolfspraul> so if we need 6, then maybe buying 10 is cheaper than 6*1
2010-12-17 03:24 <wolfspraul> then boom will buy 10
2010-12-17 03:24 <wolfspraul> (for example)
2010-12-17 03:25 <wolfspraul> the things boom does not consider right now are:
2010-12-17 03:25 <wolfspraul> 1) shipping costs
2010-12-17 03:25 <wolfspraul> 2) lead time (it looks at stock level though)
2010-12-17 03:25 <wolfspraul> 3) minimum USD amount per order
2010-12-17 03:25 <adamwang> wow..ok..that's the boom's 'thought' now
2010-12-17 03:26 <wolfspraul> but it does consider volume discounts
2010-12-17 03:26 <wolfspraul> if you want me to update BOOKSHELF just let me know, I am glad to be able to help you
2010-12-17 03:26 <adamwang> i hope there's one column which can show exactly how many 33pF we used in schematic
2010-12-17 03:27 <wolfspraul> you mean in the shopping list?
2010-12-17 03:27 <adamwang> yes
2010-12-17 03:27 <adamwang> no need? like I made mistakes in rc2
2010-12-17 03:27 <adamwang> i forgot to add some resistors actually.
2010-12-17 03:28 <adamwang> so will 'boom' happen?
2010-12-17 03:28 <wolfspraul> when you are in the bom/ directory, try this command: cat usb_jtag.ord
2010-12-17 03:29 <wolfspraul> it will list the schematics references behind each item, just for a quick look now
2010-12-17 03:29 <wolfspraul> we can ask Werner what he thinks about adding a count, or list of references, to the 'pretty printed' 'make show' shopping list
2010-12-17 03:29 <adamwang> ok, so this .ord file will show exact qty brd used?
2010-12-17 03:29 <wolfspraul> I know you want that for cross-referencing/double-checking.
2010-12-17 03:30 <adamwang> right.
2010-12-17 03:30 <wolfspraul> did you do 'cat usb_jtag.org'?
2010-12-17 03:30 <adamwang> yes
2010-12-17 03:30 <adamwang> i saw it
2010-12-17 03:30 <adamwang> it's good
2010-12-17 03:30 <wolfspraul> there is no count, but the schematics references are listed. you can count yourself :-)
2010-12-17 03:30 <wolfspraul> this can easily be formatted differently, when werner is back we see what he thinks
2010-12-17 03:31 <adamwang> well...that's why I want a quick 'count' data of column then I can see it...
2010-12-17 03:31 <adamwang> the i don't need to see other .org file...agreed?
2010-12-17 03:31 <adamwang> waste time
2010-12-17 03:31 <wolfspraul> the .ord shows you the schematics references
2010-12-17 03:32 <wolfspraul> up to you, the .ord is always there, it's part of the boom processing
2010-12-17 03:32 <wolfspraul> it's generate automatically when you run 'make clean show'
2010-12-17 03:36 <adamwang> pls add me to jtag member, tks.
2010-12-17 03:39 <wolfspraul> adamwang: done
2010-12-17 03:40 <adamwang> tks
2010-12-17 03:50 <adamwang> can i just use "git add BOOKSHELF" only?
2010-12-17 03:51 <adamwang> hm..i saw help, should be no problem.
2010-12-17 03:52 <wolfspraul> most important is git commit, then git push
2010-12-17 04:07 <adamwang> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly<<< when i 'git push'
2010-12-17 04:08 <adamwang> i have long time no use 'git', i should successfully 'git commit -a' with [master 44d1c56] trying to add R15
2010-12-17 04:08 <adamwang>  2 files changed, 21 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)
2010-12-17 04:10 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-12-17 04:10 <wolfspraul> did you do a new git clone after I added you as member?
2010-12-17 04:10 <adamwang> no
2010-12-17 04:10 <wolfspraul> ah
2010-12-17 04:11 <adamwang> ok...clone again
2010-12-17 04:11 <adamwang> tks
2010-12-17 04:11 <wolfspraul> wait one second
2010-12-17 04:11 <wolfspraul> ah yes it should be OK
2010-12-17 04:11 <wolfspraul> remember I copied you my boom parts database, but it's in another folder
2010-12-17 04:11 <wolfspraul> so I think you can safely delete the mmone-jtag-serial folder, and clone it again, with
2010-12-17 04:11 <wolfspraul> git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:mmone-jtag-serial-cable.git
2010-12-17 04:12 <wolfspraul> then you need to create the usb_jtag.lst file by going into eeschema, and clicking on the create bom button at the top
2010-12-17 04:12 <adamwang> um...hope those parts database will still there.
2010-12-17 04:12 <adamwang> umm..yes
2010-12-17 04:12 <wolfspraul> also if you edited the BOOKSHELF, copy it somewhere so you don't need to reenter
2010-12-17 04:12 <adamwang> yeah..thanks reminder
2010-12-17 04:13 <wolfspraul> just rename the whole mmone-jtag-serial-cable folder to mmone-jtag-serial-cable.old or so
2010-12-17 04:20 <adamwang> i still got fatal after 'git push'. Does my current 'password' not same as before you create?
2010-12-17 04:21 <wolfspraul> try: git pull
2010-12-17 04:21 <wolfspraul> that works?
2010-12-17 04:22 <adamwang> git pull works
2010-12-17 04:22 <adamwang> # On branch master
2010-12-17 04:22 <adamwang> # Your branch is ahead of 'origin/master' by 1 commit.
2010-12-17 04:23 <adamwang> i think the BOOKSHELF is being committed just no 'push' successfully.
2010-12-17 04:23 <wolfspraul> ok wait
2010-12-17 04:24 <adamwang> adam@adam-laptop:~/mmone-jtag-serial-cable$ git commit -a
2010-12-17 04:24 <adamwang> [master 1e6288c] trying to add R15 and other P1 parts found
2010-12-17 04:24 <adamwang>  1 files changed, 14 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)
2010-12-17 04:25 <wolfspraul> you did the git clone git@... ?
2010-12-17 04:25 <adamwang> yes
2010-12-17 04:26 <wolfspraul> try: cat .git/config
2010-12-17 04:26 <wolfspraul> there should be a line url = ...
2010-12-17 04:27 <wolfspraul> does it say url = git@...
2010-12-17 04:27 <adamwang> yes, it does
2010-12-17 04:28 <adamwang> [remote "origin"]
2010-12-17 04:28 <adamwang> fetch = +refs/heads/*:refs/remotes/origin/*
2010-12-17 04:28 <adamwang> url = git://projects.qi-hardware.com/mmone-jtag-serial-cable.git
2010-12-17 04:28 <wolfspraul> he :-)
2010-12-17 04:28 <wolfspraul> it does not
2010-12-17 04:28 <wolfspraul> it says git://
2010-12-17 04:28 <wolfspraul> but we need git@
2010-12-17 04:29 <adamwang> oah...what's difference? sorry I don't know.
2010-12-17 04:29 <wolfspraul> no problem, it's a bit confusing
2010-12-17 04:29 <wolfspraul> there are 2 ways for each project
2010-12-17 04:29 <wolfspraul> depending on whether you are read-only (public, anybody in the world), or read-write (only members and admins of the project)
2010-12-17 04:29 <wolfspraul> the read-only looks like this: git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/mmone-jtag-serial-cable.git
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> the read-write looks like this: git glone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:mmone-jtag-serial-cable.git
2010-12-17 04:30 <adamwang> so i did a read-only clone?
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-12-17 04:30 <adamwang> oah..i see
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> there is a way to change it, but I don't know how, and xiangfu is just out
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> so just do the git clone again
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> new tree
2010-12-17 04:30 <adamwang> sorry, delete and try again
2010-12-17 04:30 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-12-17 04:31 <adamwang> :)
2010-12-17 04:37 <qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: add R15 and P1 for other source http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/2380579
2010-12-17 04:39 <wolfspraul> adamwang: congratulations!
2010-12-17 04:39 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-17 04:39 <adamwang> ha...tks!
2010-12-17 04:53 <wolfspraul> lekernel: how do you like this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:AC%28EU%29_to_DC_adapter_Fairway_WN10B-050_with_Milkymist_4_pixels.png
2010-12-17 04:54 <lekernel> not as bad as on the side :)
2010-12-17 04:55 <wolfspraul> ok good
2010-12-17 04:55 <wolfspraul> so we go with that for now
2010-12-17 04:55 <wolfspraul> the dc-10 is slightly better too now, the one for bearstech was still glued :-)
2010-12-17 04:55 <wolfspraul> we have ordered adapters with US connector as well
2010-12-17 04:56 <wolfspraul> lekernel: another thing, I want to remove all usage of microSD, *SD* everywhere. we discussed a bit yesterday here, and our proposal is to call it 8:10 card
2010-12-17 04:56 <wolfspraul> 8 pins, 10 mm (rounded)
2010-12-17 04:57 <wolfspraul> on the side we can say something like (*) microSD-like, but primarily we say 8:10 card first
2010-12-17 04:57 <wolfspraul> what do you think?
2010-12-17 04:58 <lekernel> I say "memory card"
2010-12-17 04:58 <lekernel> I've already removed usage of the "microSD" brand
2010-12-17 04:59 <lekernel> people will immediately understand "memory card", but "8:10 card" means nothing
2010-12-17 04:59 <lekernel> even in the source code it's called "memory card"
2010-12-17 04:59 <wolfspraul> both works for me
2010-12-17 05:00 <wolfspraul> ok good that is great, main point is to stop using the *SD* trademarks
2010-12-17 05:01 <wolfspraul> adamwang: did you see lekernel's feedback on the milkymist sticker?
2010-12-17 05:01 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:AC%28EU%29_to_DC_adapter_Fairway_WN10B-050_with_Milkymist_4_pixels.png
2010-12-17 05:01 <wolfspraul> this is OK for now
2010-12-17 05:02 <lekernel> if we say "memory card reader that works with microSD cards", is that trademark infrigement?
2010-12-17 05:02 <wolfspraul> in such a sentence - probably not
2010-12-17 05:03 <adamwang> wolfspraul, ok with 4 pixels.
2010-12-17 05:03 <wolfspraul> but the risk is that our own people simplify this and write "microSD" everywhere
2010-12-17 05:04 <wolfspraul> that's why a new 'name', even if it is bulky like 8:10 card, helps align the home forces
2010-12-17 05:04 <wolfspraul> when speaking about 'our' side, the Milkymist One, the most we can say is that it is microSD-like
2010-12-17 05:04 <wolfspraul> in your sentence, you are describing that our 8:10 card holder happens to also work with microSD cards
2010-12-17 05:05 <wolfspraul> that shouldn't be a trademark infringement
2010-12-17 05:05 <wolfspraul> there is a line somewhere
2010-12-17 05:05 <wolfspraul> we don't want to dance around with this line too much
2010-12-17 05:05 <wolfspraul> the best is if microSD, or *SD*, just doesn't appear anywhere in our literature, web sites, etc.
2010-12-17 05:06 <wolfspraul> that's also the easiest to enforce and maintain
2010-12-17 05:07 <wolfspraul> he he
2010-12-17 05:08 <wolfspraul> maybe it's even better to say "memory card reader that might work with microSD cards"
2010-12-17 05:08 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-17 05:08 <wolfspraul> we probably must not claim that we can guarantee compatibility
2010-12-17 05:08 <lekernel> sounds a bit too unprofessional
2010-12-17 05:08 <wolfspraul> because without license we have no access to the standard
2010-12-17 05:08 <wolfspraul> and without access to the standard we cannot claim compatibility
2010-12-17 05:09 <lekernel> there's the "simplified" standard available for free
2010-12-17 05:09 <wolfspraul> yes but you ask about my opinion. I'm not a lawyer but from past cases this is the kind of stuff you will hear from a lawyer.
2010-12-17 05:09 <wolfspraul> if you say "that works with microSD cards" - that may be too much already
2010-12-17 05:09 <wolfspraul> because you don't have access to the standard
2010-12-17 05:09 <wolfspraul> so how can you say that?
2010-12-17 05:09 <lekernel> "we tested it"?
2010-12-17 05:10 <lekernel> I don't really want to say "might work" either
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> no I was kidding
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> but I realized the standard and compatibility problem
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> for example 'compatible' is a strong word
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> we cannot use it
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> we will be shut down legally
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> you cannot say microSD compatible
2010-12-17 05:10 <wolfspraul> the most is microSD-like
2010-12-17 05:11 <wolfspraul> so I took that a little further to make it 'maybe' :-)
2010-12-17 05:11 <lekernel> "designed for microSD cards"?
2010-12-17 05:11 <wolfspraul> sounds very dangerous
2010-12-17 05:11 <wolfspraul> that's exactly what you cannot claim
2010-12-17 05:11 <wolfspraul> we can say that we bought a lot of cards, some of which claim to be microSD compatible
2010-12-17 05:11 <wolfspraul> our tests show that all of those cards work
2010-12-17 05:12 <wolfspraul> but you cannot say that you know that you are microSD compatible
2010-12-17 05:12 <wolfspraul> or that you 'support' microSD
2010-12-17 05:12 <wolfspraul> or that you 'have' microSD
2010-12-17 05:12 <wpwrak> good morning :) let's see what's in the backlog today ...
2010-12-17 05:12 <wolfspraul> afaik the maximum is microSD-like
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: sebastien is not very fond of our beautiful 8:10 card
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> he wants to have a microSD card
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-17 05:13 <lekernel> yeah, or maybe not mention "microSD" at all
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> (joking, joking...)
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> of course that's the best
2010-12-17 05:13 <lekernel> and keep "memory card"
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> fine by me, it's not a very central feature of Milkymist One anyway
2010-12-17 05:13 <lekernel> external people will eventually say "microSD" anyway
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> fine
2010-12-17 05:13 <wolfspraul> we just need to keep ourselves clear from trademark infringement
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> lekernel: the defense line goes like this:
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> someone says "you need a SD HALA license"
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> we say "no, we don't support any SD standard or protocol"
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> they say "yes, you support microSD cards"
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> "no, we don't"
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> "but what is that connector there"
2010-12-17 05:17 <wolfspraul> "that's a 8:10 card holder"
2010-12-17 05:18 <wolfspraul> etc.
2010-12-17 05:19 <wolfspraul> it's difficult they have patents, copyrighted stuff, trademarks. but we need to start somewhere and staying clear of the trademarks is relatively easy.
2010-12-17 05:22 <lekernel> patents? besides the connector, there's nothing that's patentable (at least in EU)
2010-12-17 05:24 <wpwrak> (boom & multi-distro) yes, you can have multiple distributors. see gta02-core. you have to modify the output generator to see them, though. (in gta02-core, you have a different makefile target for each, but that's probably not the most elegang way)
2010-12-17 05:30 <wpwrak> (boom: count/ref) good idea. let me add it to my to do list :)
2010-12-17 05:36 <wolfspraul> lekernel: we seem to have a solution for now. We are purging *SD* everywhere. You say 'memory card', I say '8:10 card' when pressed or in tech specs, otherwise also memory card or flash memory card when explaining.
2010-12-17 05:38 <wpwrak> (usd/8:10 - claim compatibility) i don't see why a compatibility claim would be a problem. it's an assurance you make about your product. as long as you don't say it's certified ...
2010-12-17 05:39 <wolfspraul> no, 'compatible' is definitely no good
2010-12-17 05:39 <wolfspraul> that word has been 'taken' by the other side :-)
2010-12-17 05:39 <wolfspraul> we cannot claim compatibility unless sanctioned to do so by the other side
2010-12-17 05:40 <wolfspraul> we absolutely cannot claim microSD compatibility
2010-12-17 05:41 <wpwrak> ("memory card" vs. "8:10") i think "memory card" works fine in MM1 "product documentation", for descriptive purposes, because there's only one card anyway. the 8:10 is more something we need to identify cards if there could be other possibilities.
2010-12-17 05:43 <wpwrak> ("compatibility") ah, language is tricky ;-) i meant the "works with microSD" or maybe "use with", so you give the customer instructions, without making any explicit claims about your product
2010-12-17 05:43 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: if you really want to take this to the end,  then have some "8:10 card" in your shop ;-)
2010-12-17 05:44 <wpwrak> lekernel: (card name) one problem is that any names that "sound familiar" are dangerous. it just sucks, no matter what you do.
2010-12-17 05:47 <wolfspraul> yes all sounds good, I think we are all on the same page
2010-12-17 05:47 <wolfspraul> let's see how it goes
2010-12-17 05:47 <wpwrak> now, the dreaded connectors ... what are the possible actions available ? replace any part with one with a fitting (let's avoid "compatible" :) footprint ? replace only some parts ? re-layout JTAG ? ...
2010-12-17 05:47 <wpwrak> (JTAG) the JTAG board i mean
2010-12-17 05:47 <wolfspraul> "use with microSD" might just be OK still, especially if it is in a larger explanatory text
2010-12-17 05:48 <wolfspraul> we have to stay away from saying that _OUR_ stuff is somehow *SD*, and we have to stay away from 'compatible', because that is understood to be a mutual thing
2010-12-17 05:48 <wolfspraul> for the rest, we do as discussed here, should be OK
2010-12-17 05:49 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: no re-layout now, because we sent the gerbers out already
2010-12-17 05:49 <wolfspraul> the connectors need to be positioned without through-hole, or soldered manually
2010-12-17 05:50 <wpwrak> so which parts can be replaced with different ones ?
2010-12-17 05:50 <wpwrak> different but same-footprinted
2010-12-17 05:50 <wpwrak> (avoiding "compatible" is fun ;-)
2010-12-17 05:51 <wpwrak> "commensurate" is a good word :)
2010-12-17 05:51 <wpwrak> commensurate parts :)
2010-12-17 05:53 <wolfspraul> I think adamwang found solutions for the connectors already.
2010-12-17 05:53 <wolfspraul> I just want to make sure we keep updating the bom and bookshelf so our KiCad files are in great shape :-)
2010-12-17 05:54 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (8:10 card) you should post reason and proposed name on the list, perhaps also mentioning that in a reduced context like MM1 one can also use things like "memory card". then let's wait a few days. once the storm of indignation passes, we can start renaming the few references we already have
2010-12-17 05:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/usd-card.fpd: added measurement of total length http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/c4f0592
2010-12-17 05:55 <lekernel> there are no references to SD in milkymist afaik
2010-12-17 05:55 <lekernel> I used "memory card" everywhere
2010-12-17 05:56 <wolfspraul> what does the leaflet say?
2010-12-17 05:56 <lekernel> and no one said a thing btw :)
2010-12-17 05:56 <lekernel> memory card
2010-12-17 05:56 <wolfspraul> good
2010-12-17 05:57 <wpwrak> lekernel: "memory card" works well in the context of a specific product, because you already know that it has to be congruent with uSD
2010-12-17 05:58 <wpwrak> (hmm, all this avoiding of "compatibility" makes me wonder if some of the strange translations we get in the manuals of asian products may actually be intentional ;-)
2010-12-17 06:00 <wpwrak> lekernel: "memory card" wouldn't work when specifying/discussing a new design, where is may also be full-size SD, CF, memorystick, or maybe a DIMM.
2010-12-17 06:02 <wpwrak> lekernel: that is, unless you want to explain each time that it has to agree with uSD
2010-12-17 06:02 <lekernel> no big deal...
2010-12-17 06:03 <lekernel> see, it's about the first time I hear about this "problem" when there are already 46 milkymist boards out
2010-12-17 06:04 <lekernel> all using the "memory card" terminology
2010-12-17 06:04 <wpwrak> lekernel: the "problem" right now are more those 1000+ bens out there that proudly proclaim "microSD" on the case ;-)
2010-12-17 06:04 <lekernel> mh
2010-12-17 06:05 <lekernel> just rename it to "memory card", I'd say
2010-12-17 06:05 <lekernel> 8:10 card really does mean nothing
2010-12-17 06:06 <wpwrak> it's a name that is descriptive yet hasn't been taken yet. so yes, it doesn't mean anything _yet_
2010-12-17 06:06 <wolfspraul> lekernel: the point of 8:10 card is that it means nothing
2010-12-17 06:07 <wolfspraul> this is not meant to force a re-education upon people
2010-12-17 06:07 <wolfspraul> it's a placeholder for some tech specs that will give us a clean legal shield against claims of trademark infringement
2010-12-17 06:07 <wolfspraul> and it's a good name. 8 pins, 10 mm. we can use it in other places later.
2010-12-17 06:07 <wpwrak> think of it like "the glass". if you're asking someone you're eating with to pass their glass, you won't bother to specify what the glass is like. if you go to a shop and are looking for one that matches your existing collection, you will use something more descriptive.
2010-12-17 06:07 <wolfspraul> of course we are not using 8:10 to explain anything
2010-12-17 06:08 <wolfspraul> so we are all on the same page I think
2010-12-17 06:08 <wolfspraul> memory card is fine, it's great
2010-12-17 06:08 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: eventually, 8:10 will become a meaningful name by itself ;-)
2010-12-17 06:08 <lekernel> yeah, like GNU/Linux and Iceweasel...
2010-12-17 06:10 <wolfspraul> 8:10 card is the fallback for places where we don't want to say memory card. how about that? :-)
2010-12-17 06:10 <wolfspraul> and for Milkymist One, we can probably say memory card almost everywhere, maybe everywhere.
2010-12-17 06:10 <wpwrak> just wait until places like amazon get so many customes asking for "8:10 cards" that they add them as a product category ;-))
2010-12-17 06:10 <wolfspraul> I think we are all on the same page actually.
2010-12-17 06:12 <wpwrak> hah, better example. "meat". at a barbecue, everybody will understand things like "is the meat ready ?". but you'd look rather foolish ordering "meat" at the butcher shop.
2010-12-17 06:12 <wolfspraul> lekernel: wpwrak works on a 8:10 card that has an Atmel RF IC on it. not quite a 'memory card'. but it wouldn't fit into the m1 board anyway... :-)
2010-12-17 06:12 <zear> well, aren't SD cards more or less a dominent card standard on the market?
2010-12-17 06:12 <wolfspraul> now we can test it!
2010-12-17 06:13 <wolfspraul> zear: we don't support SD
2010-12-17 06:13 <zear> you mean you support uSD instead?
2010-12-17 06:13 <wolfspraul> what is uSD? do you mean microSD?
2010-12-17 06:13 <wolfspraul> we don't support microSD either
2010-12-17 06:14 <zear> yes, i mean micro
2010-12-17 06:14 <wolfspraul> (sorry need to warn you, you are in a guinea pig test right now...)
2010-12-17 06:14 <wolfspraul> zear: no, we don't support microSD
2010-12-17 06:14 <wolfspraul> that's a proprietary standard we don't have access to
2010-12-17 06:14 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: at least we're not "compatible". maybe we're "friendly" ? :)
2010-12-17 06:14 <zear> wolfspraul, i just want to say that here all the non-tech people call SD cards simply by "memory card"
2010-12-17 06:14 <wolfspraul> yes we are friendly to microSD, definitely
2010-12-17 06:15 <wolfspraul> great
2010-12-17 06:15 <wolfspraul> we support many memory cards
2010-12-17 06:15 <zear> since nobody used any other format
2010-12-17 06:15 <wpwrak> zear: your digital camera uses uSD ?
2010-12-17 06:15 <wpwrak> zear: like the Ben uses full-sized SD ? :)
2010-12-17 06:15 <lekernel> yeah, exactly, that's why the "memory card" term is good (for M1 at least, where I don't plan any other use of the card connector)
2010-12-17 06:16 <zear> wpwrak, yes, i use uSD for my digital camera
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> argh
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> Werner is raining on my parade
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> I didn't see any of this.
2010-12-17 06:16 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: we're very supportive of memory cards ;-)
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> I have never seen or heard about anything SD
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> ahh
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> good
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> memory cards
2010-12-17 06:16 <wolfspraul> that I know
2010-12-17 06:16 <lekernel> though I'm not shocked of "wireless adapters" that plug into memory card connectors either
2010-12-17 06:17 <lekernel> SD means "secure digital", so it's not a good term anyway
2010-12-17 06:17 <wpwrak> lekernel: "wireless" is a good example for a term that's easily used in an overly generic way. e.g., it would be borderline fraud if you sold the ben-wpan card simply as a "wireless card"
2010-12-17 06:18 <zear> when you say "a floppy disk", nobody thinks about 8 inch ones, am i right?
2010-12-17 06:18 <wpwrak> SD = Synchronous Data ;-)
2010-12-17 06:18 <zear> the same way when you say "memory card" nobody thinks of anything else than SD family
2010-12-17 06:18 <andres-calderon> newcomer...  What is the problem with the uSD connector? legal issue?
2010-12-17 06:19 <wpwrak> zear: i remember the days where you had the choice of 5.25" and 3.5", HD and DD, nicely on the rack next to each other
2010-12-17 06:19 <wpwrak> andres-calderon: yes. the name "microSD" is protected (trademark)
2010-12-17 06:20 <zear> wpwrak, lucky you, i never had a chance to mount a floppy on linux :P
2010-12-17 06:20 <wpwrak> zear: "sd family". perhaps. but you still don't know which member of the family.
2010-12-17 06:20 <andres-calderon> ok, SDIO is protected  too?
2010-12-17 06:20 <zear> wpwrak, yes, but you have adapters
2010-12-17 06:20 <wpwrak> zear: i wrote some code in floppy.c ;-)
2010-12-17 06:20 <zear> wpwrak, nobody buys full SDs anymore, they usually sell microSD + fullSD adapters
2010-12-17 06:21 <wpwrak> zear: (adapters) like for putting that full-sized SD into your phone ? :)
2010-12-17 06:21 <zear> wpwrak, no, the other way out one ;)
2010-12-17 06:21 <zear> although i have such one
2010-12-17 06:21 <wpwrak> zear: you can still buy full-sizes SD pretty much everywhere
2010-12-17 06:21 <zear> wpwrak, they're mostly leftovers
2010-12-17 06:21 <zear> at least here
2010-12-17 06:22 <wpwrak> see what "memory card" you get at a sony shop ;-)
2010-12-17 06:22 <zear> i think they still sell that high speed fullSDHC for cameras, for any other task they sell microSDs
2010-12-17 06:22 <zear> wpwrak, why would you want to shop there? :D
2010-12-17 06:23 <zear> the last time i went there, i returned with the only sony bravia tv that wasn't linux based
2010-12-17 06:23 <zear> quite a disappointment
2010-12-17 06:23 <wpwrak> one criterion for the name is also that it has to be non-interactive. "a memory card" followed by "no, the other kind" is not an option.
2010-12-17 06:24 <zear> wpwrak, then call them "es-dee cards"
2010-12-17 06:24 <wpwrak> (tv without linux) see, that's what happens if you're not specific enough ;-)
2010-12-17 06:24 <wpwrak> i suggested 5D ;-)
2010-12-17 06:25 <zear> 5D sounds great
2010-12-17 06:26 <wpwrak> the enemy lawyers would have feeding frenzy :)
2010-12-17 06:26 <wpwrak> s/have/have a/
2010-12-17 06:27 <wolfspraul> lekernel: exactly, 'secure digital' is a trademark, not a name
2010-12-17 06:27 <zear> why not call them "insecure digital" then
2010-12-17 06:27 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: we call them 8:10 cards now
2010-12-17 06:27 <wolfspraul> 8 pins, 10 mm (rounded)
2010-12-17 06:28 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-17 06:28 <wolfspraul> ah no, not 'them'
2010-12-17 06:28 <wolfspraul> our cards _are_ 8:10 cards
2010-12-17 06:28 <wolfspraul> we don't know whether they are compatible with microSD or not
2010-12-17 06:28 <andres-calderon> where i can found  any  document to read about the uSD issue?
2010-12-17 06:29 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: the issue is that 'Secure Digital' and anything *SD* is trademarked
2010-12-17 06:29 <wolfspraul> in addition they claim to hold patents, and copyrighted whatever
2010-12-17 06:29 <zear> wolfspraul, what about microMMC cards, are they different?
2010-12-17 06:29 <zear> in size/number of pins
2010-12-17 06:29 <wolfspraul> yes I think that's owned by someone else
2010-12-17 06:30 <wolfspraul> ah
2010-12-17 06:30 <wolfspraul> are you asking a legal or technical question?
2010-12-17 06:30 <wolfspraul> technically it's probably 'the same' :-)
2010-12-17 06:30 <zear> though i guess the driver can support them as well if they only can fit the slot
2010-12-17 06:30 <wolfspraul> legally it's not the same
2010-12-17 06:30 <wolfspraul> we are mostly talking about legal stuff here
2010-12-17 06:31 <zear> but 8:10 cards would point to two different things then ;)
2010-12-17 06:31 <wpwrak> microMMC has a different size. not sure about number of contacts/protocol
2010-12-17 06:31 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: this is the issue: http://www.sdcard.org/developers/join/licensing/hala/
2010-12-17 06:31 <wolfspraul> as copyleft hardware, we try to make hardware that is as little dependant on such proprietary technology as possible
2010-12-17 06:32 <wolfspraul> otherwise the licensing requirements, even if Sharism Ltd. would sign the license, would perpetuate upon anybody making use of the copyleftness of our work
2010-12-17 06:32 <wolfspraul> so it would taint the copyleftness of our work
2010-12-17 06:32 <wolfspraul> hence we work on removing such taintedness
2010-12-17 06:32 <zear> btw wolfspraul, i remember you mentioning somewhere once that you guys had 2 or 3 cases of nn warranty replacement due to weird stuff happening on screen, am i right?
2010-12-17 06:33 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-12-17 06:33 <zear> because my nn seems to change the LCD colors when i move with the hinge
2010-12-17 06:33 <wolfspraul> not good :-)
2010-12-17 06:33 <zear> and i'd like to know what can be the problem
2010-12-17 06:33 <zear> mine is the pre-retail unit, so i have no warranty, and the make quality is probably worse as well ;)
2010-12-17 06:33 <wolfspraul> ideally it's just a problem with the fpc going into the mainboard
2010-12-17 06:34 <wolfspraul> then you could open that, reseat the fpc, and it would be stable again
2010-12-17 06:34 <zear> ah, sounds like something an unskilled person could do
2010-12-17 06:34 <wolfspraul> worse, it could be a problem with the soldering of the connector the fpc goes into, or on the other side (the side of the lcm), where the cable is soldered onto the pcb right away
2010-12-17 06:34 <wolfspraul> you have to be careful a little
2010-12-17 06:34 <andres-calderon> SDA sowed terror in the linux kernel community a  time ago.  But after reading the legal terms they found a simple solution: "we have not signed anything"
2010-12-17 06:34 <wolfspraul> have you ever opened your nanonote? taken off the plastic around and above the keyboard?
2010-12-17 06:35 <zear> wolfspraul, nope, never
2010-12-17 06:35 <wolfspraul> how bad is the color problem?
2010-12-17 06:35 <wolfspraul> if it's not very bad, maybe fix it when it gets worse
2010-12-17 06:35 <wolfspraul> we'll fix it, no worries
2010-12-17 06:35 <zear> wolfspraul, the colors are sort of reversed
2010-12-17 06:35 <wolfspraul> always?
2010-12-17 06:35 <zear> they're not mirror reversed, so black -> white
2010-12-17 06:35 <zear> it's more like what happens when you try to run on a different color depth
2010-12-17 06:36 <zear> and only in certain hinge positions
2010-12-17 06:36 <zear> and not always, but there's about 50% chance of this occuring when you open the case and move with the hinge
2010-12-17 06:36 <wolfspraul> first thing would be to try to reseat the fpc cable on the mainboard side
2010-12-17 06:39 <zear> my nanonote is still pristine, i wish i had skills to fiddle with it a bit
2010-12-17 06:39 <zear> like, to install that serial console chip i got from wpwrak via rafa
2010-12-17 06:40 <zear> unfortunatelly certain people forgot to take soldering tools with them for the jlime meeting, so they weren't able to install it into my nn ;P
2010-12-17 06:52 <wpwrak> zear: yeah. real pity that one.
2010-12-17 06:52 <zear> i'd love to play with the serial console, but as long as i don't find someone with hardcore soldering skills, that won't happen :(
2010-12-17 06:53 <wpwrak> zear: here's your chance to become a hardcore soldering man yourself ;-)
2010-12-17 06:54 <zear> nah, i already toasted my pc by resoldering a broken gamepad's cable and plugging it to the usb port
2010-12-17 06:54 <zear> i don't want to experiment with soldering anymore :D
2010-12-17 06:54 <wpwrak> zear: naw, don't worry. it's easy - and wolfgang likes to sell more bens ;-)
2010-12-17 06:55 <zear> ;D
2010-12-17 06:55 <zear> only if he accepts 100 ubuntu 5.04 cds as currency :)
2010-12-17 06:56 <zear> i once ordered 212 of them, but managed to giveaway only 112
2010-12-17 07:00 <wpwrak> ah, the tragedy of the commons :)
2010-12-17 07:01 <zear> this was back in 2006 or something, people weren't used to linux yet
2010-12-17 07:02 <wpwrak> we live in very different timescales, it seems ;-)
2010-12-17 07:02 <wpwrak> if you had written 1996, maybe ...
2010-12-17 07:02 <zear> ;P
2010-12-17 07:03 <zear> well, back then there were no netbooks and linux wasn't popular on mobile phones
2010-12-17 07:04 <zear> now most of the people i talk to heard of linux and are interested in getting free printed cds
2010-12-17 07:09 <lekernel> how does canonical get money, btw?
2010-12-17 07:10 <viric> in the firefox, in ubuntu, they put "client=ubuntu" in the google requests.
2010-12-17 07:10 <zear> shuttleworth is also a multimilionare
2010-12-17 07:11 <lekernel> viric: that's all?
2010-12-17 07:11 <lekernel> zear: yeah, but this won't last undefinitely (except maybe through the magic of "financial instruments")
2010-12-17 07:11 <viric> no idea :)
2010-12-17 07:13 <lekernel> and why did he create canonical as a commercial company, if the objective is to operate at a loss?
2010-12-17 07:13 <zear> lekernel, well, he was the second space tourist, if he's still a millionaire after that, he must have a nice money flow
2010-12-17 07:13 <lekernel> a non-profit organization would have been more appropriate
2010-12-17 07:15 <lekernel> well, afaik he got all of it by selling thawte to verisign
2010-12-17 07:15 <lekernel> that was a huge shot of cash, not really a flow
2010-12-17 07:39 <andres-calderon> Paid developers power the Linux kernel: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-20024219-62.html  (old news)
2010-12-17 07:45 <viric> andres-calderon: like openbsd's paid developers
2010-12-17 07:45 <viric> is it? :)
2010-12-17 07:47 <andres-calderon> viric: I like to get paid for doing what I like.
2010-12-17 07:49 <viric> I refer to the FBI related funds :)
2010-12-17 07:49 <viric> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/22557
2010-12-17 07:53 <wpwrak> viric: maybe andres would like to work for the FBI. well, CIA in his case. i'm sure they're recruiting ;)
2010-12-17 07:53 <andres-calderon> viric: wow
2010-12-17 07:54 <rxvt> ok ive been looking for hours and i can not find a mico sd wifi card anywere, if anyone knows were i could buy one of these and could point me in the write direction it would be nice
2010-12-17 07:56 <andres-calderon> wpwrak: jeje
2010-12-17 07:57 <andres-calderon> That risk will always exist in open source SW model. But, we just can  imagine the nice collection of  backdoors, troyan, etc in the most popular closed OS
2010-12-17 07:59 <andres-calderon> the big brother also write code.
2010-12-17 08:01 <qi-bot> [commit] Adam Wang: Add alias names for some parts http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/d222b3f
2010-12-17 08:03 <wolfspraul> excellent, Adam is committing :-)
2010-12-17 08:03 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: we need to jump into the kicad files too! :-)
2010-12-17 08:04 <zrafa> lekernel: if IIRC canonical offers IT linux services like red hat and others.. so they admin servers, do virtualization solutions, etc.. Nothing special I would say, the same like red hat, suse, ibm, hp.. etc etc.. If you ask them to put a pet shop for you they will do
2010-12-17 08:04 <wolfspraul> I was slowed down by some work on snapshots and server rescue stuff, but it's almost done now, then back to more the stuff at the surface...
2010-12-17 08:04 <lekernel> ah, yeah
2010-12-17 12:51 <kristianpaul> if i want remove or move files, later sync with git, should i do care of soemthing?
2010-12-17 12:52 <kristianpaul> or just git add as usual and he will realize new folder and deleted files?
2010-12-17 12:52 <kristianpaul> s/he/it
2010-12-17 13:12 <wpwrak> git rm  and  git mv   ?
2010-12-17 13:13 <kristianpaul> ahhh ;-)
2010-12-17 13:15 <kristianpaul> i'm a dumb with git :(
2010-12-17 14:24 <qwebirc30669> hi
2010-12-17 14:27 <Textmode> ...30s?
2010-12-17 14:28 <wpwrak> ADHD ;-)
2010-12-17 14:32 <wpwrak> wonders if jlime has as much trouble with their menu system as openwrt has with gmenu2x ...
2010-12-17 14:32 <kristianpaul> i dont think so wpwrak
2010-12-17 14:32 <kristianpaul> well it run on X :)
2010-12-17 14:32 <kristianpaul> Xfdev**
2010-12-17 14:33 <kristianpaul> is at home today :)
2010-12-17 14:34 <kristianpaul> well comparative is not fair
2010-12-17 14:34 <kristianpaul> matchbox is not a menu
2010-12-17 14:35 <kristianpaul> and gmenu2x want to be more that a menu ;)
2010-12-17 14:35 <wpwrak> well, "launcher"
2010-12-17 14:36 <kristianpaul> ah yes
2010-12-17 14:36 <wpwrak> there seem to be a heck of a lot of very basic issues with gmenu2x. well, some may be just the result of an attempt to optimize for the last byte ...
2010-12-17 14:37 <kristianpaul> 6Mb in ram is too much, for just a wallpeper and some icons
2010-12-17 14:38 <kristianpaul> may be i wallpaper fault ;)
2010-12-17 14:38 <kristianpaul> s/i/is
2010-12-17 14:39 <kristianpaul> Oh look what i found http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Launcher
2010-12-17 14:41 <wpwrak> "It features events notification too" ... "It is aimed at FSO framework" ... probably has some nasty dependencies
2010-12-17 14:43 <kristianpaul> :/
2010-12-17 14:49 <kristianpaul> things get simpler when you elminate Xilinx dependent cores :)
2010-12-17 14:49 <kristianpaul> s/core/features
2010-12-17 14:49 <kristianpaul> talking about sram > buffer used on SIE shared bus
2010-12-17 14:50 <wpwrak> portable is good :)
2010-12-17 14:50 <kristianpaul> yeah
2010-12-17 14:50 <kristianpaul> I learn that from milkymist code :)
2010-12-17 14:50 <kristianpaul> learnt*
2010-12-17 14:52 <kristianpaul> whoa it sinthetized at first try :), let see still working
2010-12-17 15:04 <wpwrak> what's that burnt smell ? (-:C
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> please join #qi-hardware
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> oops
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> wait wait not yet ;)
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> wpwrak met Jay7
2010-12-17 15:08 <Jay7> morning ppl :)
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> from kexecboot.org
2010-12-17 15:08 <kristianpaul> devel* right?
2010-12-17 15:09 <Jay7> lead devel ;)
2010-12-17 15:09 <Jay7> and single seems atm :(
2010-12-17 15:09 <kristianpaul> i just think you should met as i read lots of times abot kexec here from wpwrak  :)
2010-12-17 15:09 <Jay7> I've seen something like from qi people :)
2010-12-17 15:09 <wpwrak> hi Jay7 ! ah yes, i love kexec :)
2010-12-17 15:09 <Jay7> but there are a LOT of kexec-based shell loaders :)
2010-12-17 15:09 <kristianpaul> Btw Jay7 are you aware of Ben Nanonote, thats what we need the bootloader
2010-12-17 15:10 <kristianpaul> s/bootloader/lancuher
2010-12-17 15:10 <kristianpaul> sorry
2010-12-17 15:10 <Jay7> kristianpaul: even more
2010-12-17 15:10 <Jay7> I got nanonote from CELF to port kexecboot there :)
2010-12-17 15:10 <kristianpaul> Jay7 also point me this http://labs.o-hand.com/psplash/
2010-12-17 15:10 <Jay7> as part of proposed work
2010-12-17 15:10 <kristianpaul> Jay7: ahh !!
2010-12-17 15:10 <kristianpaul> You already suscribed in the list?
2010-12-17 15:10 <Jay7> still in my todo queue.. I hope this will happens around christmas holidays
2010-12-17 15:11 <Jay7> kristianpaul: qi's one?
2010-12-17 15:11 <kristianpaul> did you tell this before, will be neat if you do
2010-12-17 15:11 <kristianpaul> Jay7: yup
2010-12-17 15:11 <Jay7> no, point me :)
2010-12-17 15:12 <kristianpaul> Jay7: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page <--  Discussion List - developers and users Please fill Signup
2010-12-17 15:12 <Jay7> ok, mom
2010-12-17 15:15 <Jay7> done
2010-12-17 15:16 <kristianpaul> good :)
2010-12-17 15:16 <kristianpaul> Btw do you have screenshots of psplash ?
2010-12-17 15:17 <kristianpaul> Jay7: when i asked for app lanucher how kexecboot fits that question?
2010-12-17 15:17 <Jay7> kristianpaul: hm.. any of angstrom images have psplash running :)
2010-12-17 15:18 <kristianpaul> oh let me see
2010-12-17 15:18 <Jay7> kristianpaul: kexecboot is C program that scans available partitions on available medias, builds FB menu and allows to select one to boot from
2010-12-17 15:18 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: not burned out, but i'm getting some not expected readins, i may missed timing with my implementation of Read-only ram :)
2010-12-17 15:18 <Jay7> then kexec is launched
2010-12-17 15:18 <Jay7> so.. there is all code you need :)
2010-12-17 15:19 <Jay7> fb menu + executing code
2010-12-17 15:19 <Jay7> but fb code is changing.. I'm refactoring it slowly
2010-12-17 15:20 <wpwrak> a screenshot would indeed be nice
2010-12-17 15:20 <Jay7> here is our git: http://git.linuxtogo.org/?p=groups/kexecboot/kexecboot.git;a=summary
2010-12-17 15:20 <Jay7> http://picasaweb.google.com/yuri.bushmelev/Kexecboot?feat=directlink
2010-12-17 15:20 <Jay7> here are some
2010-12-17 15:21 <Jay7> latest is old mockup, now we have other outlook
2010-12-17 15:21 <Jay7> sorry, have no screenshots of new UI
2010-12-17 15:21 <Jay7> I should do some for site
2010-12-17 15:22 <wpwrak> thanks ! looks nice !
2010-12-17 15:22 <kristianpaul> looks good
2010-12-17 15:22 <Jay7> new UI is even better ;)
2010-12-17 15:22 <kristianpaul> And is avalible for nanonote as well? :D
2010-12-17 15:22 <Jay7> it should be
2010-12-17 15:22 <Jay7> I've just not tried
2010-12-17 15:22 <kristianpaul> thanks !!
2010-12-17 15:23 <wpwrak> kewl. i guess it tool some inspirations from the PS3 version ? as far as i remember, they were the first (several years ago)
2010-12-17 15:23 <kristianpaul> You can write to qi list
2010-12-17 15:23 <Jay7> it even was compiled last time iirc
2010-12-17 15:23 <kristianpaul> i'm sure you'll get beta testers (including me)
2010-12-17 15:23 <wpwrak> s/tool/took/
2010-12-17 15:23 <Jay7> wpwrak: thesing (Thomas Kunze iirc) is original developer
2010-12-17 15:24 <Jay7> may be it was inspired by PS3 something :)
2010-12-17 15:24 <Jay7> but kexecboot was written almost from scratch (except FB code was taken from psplash)
2010-12-17 15:25 <Jay7> now I've changed most part of that code to do UI faster
2010-12-17 15:25 <Jay7> but I have at least one bug there :)
2010-12-17 15:26 <Jay7> kristianpaul: I should try to run it on nanonote at least before :)
2010-12-17 15:26 <kristianpaul> Please :)
2010-12-17 15:26 <Jay7> well.. I'll try as soon as possible
2010-12-17 15:27 <Jay7> kristianpaul: what was your original problem about UI?
2010-12-17 15:27 <Jay7> some launcher for what?
2010-12-17 15:27 <kristianpaul> Currently owrt is used on default nanonote image
2010-12-17 15:28 <kristianpaul> inittab lanuch an app called gmenu2x, originally taken from dingox
2010-12-17 15:28 <kristianpaul> other xbusrt based device
2010-12-17 15:28 <kristianpaul> but gmenu2x well have some issues, one i'm afraid as i realized is that uses 6Mb of memory
2010-12-17 15:29 <kristianpaul> wich is a  LOT i think
2010-12-17 15:30 <kristianpaul> As far i know one of the nanonote sofware goals is fast boot
2010-12-17 15:30 <kristianpaul> that cold be achieve
2010-12-17 15:30 <kristianpaul> 1: removing uboot and replace it by kexec
2010-12-17 15:31 <kristianpaul> 2: replace current app launcher for one lighter and faster to run,
2010-12-17 15:31 <kristianpaul> the last one will be nice if support wallpaper and icons for each apps
2010-12-17 15:31 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: before 1, you need some simple first-stage loader
2010-12-17 15:31 <kristianpaul> thats the original problem Jay7
2010-12-17 15:32 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: true
2010-12-17 15:32 <zrafa> kristianpaul: why do you think that 6MB is a lot?.. which applications you want to run which needs those 6MB of ram+free ram?
2010-12-17 15:32 <wpwrak> zrafa: 6 MB is almost 20% of your memory :)
2010-12-17 15:32 <zrafa> wpwrak: yes, I know
2010-12-17 15:33 <zrafa> wpwrak: I want to know which applications people want to run using the ram
2010-12-17 15:33 <wpwrak> OpenOffice, of course ;-)
2010-12-17 15:33 <Jay7> well..
2010-12-17 15:33 <zrafa> I read all the time : it is slow and it eats a lot of ram.. but nobody seems to use the ram
2010-12-17 15:33 <zrafa> which something more than ls, top, moc, vim
2010-12-17 15:34 <zrafa> with something*
2010-12-17 15:34 <wpwrak> i saw someone mention allocation failures. was that with emacs ?
2010-12-17 15:34 <kristianpaul> zrafa: because is ~21% from our 28M ram memory :/
2010-12-17 15:34 <zrafa> kristianpaul: ??
2010-12-17 15:34 <Jay7> I can create some form of laucher from kexecboot
2010-12-17 15:34 <Jay7> it should be easy enough
2010-12-17 15:34 <kristianpaul> zrafa: wpwrak already told that, i dint notice it :)
2010-12-17 15:34 <Jay7> but I can start only from 1-5 Jan
2010-12-17 15:34 <zrafa> kristianpaul: and what wpwrak said does not answer the question
2010-12-17 15:35 <Jay7> so if you need something before - do it yourself ;)
2010-12-17 15:35 <zrafa> the main question is which application users want to run to use the whole ram
2010-12-17 15:35 <kristianpaul> i was afraid for that answer Jay7 ;-)
2010-12-17 15:36 <Jay7> we can use kexecboot as second-stage loader to run kernel from any available media
2010-12-17 15:36 <kristianpaul> Jay7: We thanks your help when you can :)
2010-12-17 15:36 <Jay7> then run some tool based on it to run apps
2010-12-17 15:36 <Jay7> interface will be almost the same :)
2010-12-17 15:37 <Jay7> kristianpaul: if Qi can pay me for that work, I'll do it faster ;)
2010-12-17 15:37 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (first stage) i was thiking a reduced/cuted/hacked uboot code..
2010-12-17 15:37 <zrafa> wpwrak: one answer could be : users want to run 1000 ls at the same time, 50 tops and 100 vim
2010-12-17 15:37 <Jay7> first stage loader should just load kernel from NAND
2010-12-17 15:38 <Jay7> all other thing will be done by kexecboot
2010-12-17 15:38 <kristianpaul> Jay7: (pay) dont know, but as if you can help us later will be nice, all we here are unpaid :)
2010-12-17 15:38 <kristianpaul> from qi
2010-12-17 15:38 <Jay7> kristianpaul: well, np :)
2010-12-17 15:38 <kristianpaul> i meant
2010-12-17 15:38 <Jay7> it was (semi-)joke :)
2010-12-17 15:38 <zrafa> "I will not but that house, the extra room is small".. okey, now tell me: "who will use that extra room?".. mmehhh.. "nobody.. but I will not buy that house, the extra room is small"
2010-12-17 15:39 <zrafa> :P
2010-12-17 15:39 <kristianpaul> zrafa: well i dont care too much for ram, but if i can get my menu faster that now, i will be happy guy  (and others as well i think, endusers??? :))
2010-12-17 15:39 <Jay7> so, I'll add this channel to znc and will hang here
2010-12-17 15:40 <kristianpaul> Wellcome then :)
2010-12-17 15:40 <Jay7> my working timezone is like CET :)
2010-12-17 15:40 <kristianpaul> Jay7: i'm adding #oe too to my irssi
2010-12-17 15:40 <Jay7> so, feel free to contact me :)
2010-12-17 15:41 <wpwrak> zrafa: naw, uselessly wasting memory is always bad. the sooner or later, there will be something that fails because of it. remember "640 kB is enough" ? :)
2010-12-17 15:42 <Jay7> kristianpaul: you can look at boot.cfg sample and try to imagine some config for apps launcher
2010-12-17 15:42 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: (reduced u-boot) naw, u-boot is a mess. don't go there. i think lars already has some small loader.
2010-12-17 15:42 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: ok
2010-12-17 15:42 <Jay7> just to have it before
2010-12-17 15:42 <Jay7> http://git.linuxtogo.org/?p=groups/kexecboot/kexecboot.git;a=blob;f=boot.cfg;h=6ec262f47a9d5d4a98445324debb089fc4ba332c;hb=HEAD
2010-12-17 15:43 <zrafa> wpwrak: yes, I know, but I would not be so worry about those 6mb gmenu uses.. if nobody is going to use those 6MB yet I would try to complain with other kind of stuff :)
2010-12-17 15:43 <Jay7> multiple sections is needed here.. but I'll do the same for multiple kernels
2010-12-17 15:49 <kristianpaul> Jay7: hey looks  simple setup (from what i can read)
2010-12-17 15:49 <Jay7> yes, it is
2010-12-17 15:50 <Jay7> bad thing that current implementation is only for single kernel (single boot.cfg) per partition
2010-12-17 15:50 <Jay7> but multiple kernels per partitions (i.e. multiple sections inside boot.cfg) is also proposed work for CELF
2010-12-17 15:50 <Jay7> so I'll do this anyway..
2010-12-17 17:02 <kristianpaul> hmm the forth oriented CPU (J1), interesting aprouch, when talking about CPU oriented to certain programing language
2010-12-17 17:02 <kristianpaul> now wich program language to choose :) ?
2010-12-17 17:03 <kristianpaul> argg i still getting randon reading, i think i missed a verilog wire
2010-12-17 17:07 <wpwrak> i'd pick a cpu optimized for C ;-)
2010-12-17 17:09 <kristianpaul> FPGA can beat current CPU in that way i think, plus the reconfiguration stuff
2010-12-17 17:09 <wpwrak> you, switch from C to verilog :)
2010-12-17 17:10 <kristianpaul> well is not the same aprocuh (procedural vs cocurrent)
2010-12-17 17:10 <wpwrak> actually, once synthesis is opened. i wonder how long it would take for someone to come up with a C compiler that programs the FPGA
2010-12-17 17:11 <kristianpaul> I was pointing, ie, from you pick, C is the assemlby language
2010-12-17 17:11 <kristianpaul> but is hard, you dint program a FPGA at all
2010-12-17 17:11 <kristianpaul> just load a hardware model
2010-12-17 17:12 <kristianpaul> i still been hardware some how, you still needing the sofware logic glue
2010-12-17 17:12 <kristianpaul> mostly because the *soft* part
2010-12-17 17:13 <wpwrak> think of compilers for vector processors. they also need to split into vectorized and scalar part.
2010-12-17 17:13 <kristianpaul> Nice times are coming  :)
2010-12-17 17:13 <wpwrak> some cpus also have some very low-level run-time core. e.g., look at the propeller.
2010-12-17 17:13 <wpwrak> (or just any microcode)
2010-12-17 17:15 <kristianpaul> (vector processors) yummy :)
2010-12-17 17:18 <kristianpaul> parallax propeller, looks interesting, i dint knew it of it
2010-12-17 17:43 <wpwrak> it's an interesting concept. probably not really worth the trouble for real-life applications, though.
2010-12-17 17:55 <Jay7> kristianpaul: I remember some java-bytecode-compatible processors
2010-12-17 17:55 <Jay7> and I'm sure we can see .net-compatible in the future
2010-12-17 18:00 <wpwrak> are the java cpus any commercial success ?
2010-12-17 18:02 <kristianpaul> is java a sucess?
2010-12-17 18:02 <kristianpaul> no, are not  (cpu)
2010-12-17 18:03 <kristianpaul> commercially talking is hard to define sucess from techincal point of view
2010-12-17 18:04 <Jay7> wpwrak: seems no :)
2010-12-17 18:08 <wpwrak> Jay7: then i wouldn't hold my breath when it comes to .net cpus ;-)
2010-12-17 18:08 <Jay7> well.. there will be microsoft behind ;)
2010-12-17 18:08 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i suspect that, by the time the things are mature enough, regular cpus will have caught up with them :)
2010-12-17 18:09 <wpwrak> Jay7: well, M$ have a long history of "strategic" projects that are epic commercial disasters ;-)
2010-12-17 18:09 <wpwrak> e.g., Windows HPC anyone ? ;-)
2010-12-17 18:09 <Jay7> I hope this will one of that :)
2010-12-17 18:10 <wpwrak> i don't see how it could fail to be ;-)
2010-12-17 18:32 <Madridman> hi folks
2010-12-17 18:33 <Madridman> a question, what's the meaning of "qi" on the room's name?
2010-12-17 18:49 <wpwrak> Madridman: it's about open source/copyleft hardware: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page
2010-12-17 18:50 <wpwrak> wolfgang: small detail - if you go to the wiki, there's no direct way to find out where the "qi" comes from :-)
2010-12-17 18:51 <Madridman> thanks
2010-12-17 18:52 <wpwrak> wolfgang: fun fact: www.sharism.cc -> the latest "community news" are from april 29. i must have hallucinated all the more recent ones ;-)
2010-12-17 19:13 <kristianpaul> Madridman: Qi is Chinese  related, look: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Qi
2010-12-17 19:41 <kristianpaul> he now i read zeros, well better than randon :)
2010-12-17 19:43 <wpwrak> sounds a bit like my misadventures with the latest atusb board :-( the beast was happy enough to begin its first programming, but then failed the checksum and stubbornly refused any further updates
2010-12-17 19:47 <wpwrak> voltages look good. soldering looks good. no shorts i can see. very mysterious.
2010-12-17 19:50 <wpwrak> current consumption is perfect
2010-12-17 19:50 <kristianpaul> mcu issues?..
2010-12-17 19:51 <wpwrak> could be broken, yes. strange, though.
2010-12-17 19:52 <wpwrak> programmer works perfectly with a different kind of board. so it's really this critter that's having issues.
2010-12-17 19:54 <wpwrak> not a good day so far. the first board i made had an irreparable soldering problem (a solder bridge that didn't go away, no matter what i tried)
2010-12-17 19:56 <wpwrak> then i found that the ben had a ubifs corruption that prevented it from booting. so, a little detour with a full reflash.  (reflash_ben.sh works nicely, particularly when used in combination with idbg :)
2010-12-17 19:56 <wpwrak> and now the damn mcu won't flash :-(
2010-12-17 21:03 <kristianpaul> he
2010-12-17 21:03 <kristianpaul> i was reading an int, so make sense now !
2010-12-17 21:03 <kristianpaul> schar*
2010-12-17 21:07 <kristianpaul> good !
2010-12-17 21:07 <kristianpaul> now, time to dump to a file, lets see what option is better
2010-12-17 21:12 <wpwrak> which are the options ?
2010-12-17 21:15 <kristianpaul> as this need to be fast i tought:
2010-12-17 21:15 <kristianpaul> 1: allocate some Mb of memory and dump to it, when finish , write to disk
2010-12-17 21:16 <wpwrak> that's what i'd do
2010-12-17 21:16 <kristianpaul> 2: write to disk, wich is kind slow i think, i tough use memory flash 10:8, but tahts no recommended in SIE
2010-12-17 21:17 <wpwrak> 2: no way :) it also adds stray delays and such, which will probably make you overrun your buffer
2010-12-17 21:17 <kristianpaul> oops :)
2010-12-17 21:17 <wpwrak> do you have an indication for buffer overruns ?
2010-12-17 21:17 <kristianpaul> ah...
2010-12-17 21:17 <kristianpaul> no
2010-12-17 21:18 <wpwrak> maybe add one. otherwise, you'll have no end of trouble with strangely incorrect data
2010-12-17 21:18 <kristianpaul> ok lets see how to do it :),
2010-12-17 21:19 <kristianpaul> btw are you using some indication for buffer overruns in atusd code? :D
2010-12-17 21:19 <wpwrak> worse yet, even if your data is perfectly good but something else is wrong, you'll always suspect the data :)
2010-12-17 21:20 <wpwrak> right now, a new frame would just overwrite the old one
2010-12-17 21:20 <kristianpaul> ah no dump
2010-12-17 21:21 <kristianpaul> you may consider one ! ;-)
2010-12-17 21:21 <wpwrak> there's the possibility of disabling the receiver until the frame has been received, though
2010-12-17 21:21 <wpwrak> dump ?
2010-12-17 21:21 <kristianpaul> data dump?
2010-12-17 21:22 <kristianpaul> ( disabling the receiver) is that a question for me?
2010-12-17 21:22 <wpwrak> hmm ? when the chip has received the frame, it generates an interrupt. then i transfer the frame. if i'm too slow and a new frame is being received, it may overwrite the first one
2010-12-17 21:22 <kristianpaul> ah ok, nv last question :)
2010-12-17 21:22 <wpwrak> no, talking about atusd/atusb
2010-12-17 21:22 <kristianpaul> yes yes
2010-12-17 21:23 <wpwrak> i'll probably let the microcontroller do the first response to interrupts on atusb. otherwise, it'll just sit around lazily and get fat ;-)
2010-12-17 21:24 <wpwrak> on atusd, there's no mcu, do it's the ben who has to react
2010-12-17 21:24 <wpwrak> s/do/so/
2010-12-17 21:30 <kristianpaul> after all i can have a decent 8bit IO in SIE plus 13bits of addresing (multiplexing), just deleting the sram and adding some case staments
2010-12-17 21:33 <kristianpaul> simple :)
2010-12-17 21:38 <wpwrak> whatever you say ;-)
2010-12-17 21:40 <kristianpaul> between SIE and FPGA i mean—*
2010-12-17 21:40 <kristianpaul> s/SIE/Xbusrt
2010-12-17 21:40 <wpwrak> that's the part i understood. the rest sounds mysterious ;-)
2010-12-17 21:40 <kristianpaul> hahah
2010-12-17 21:57 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: how do you like my latest soldering accessory ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/hotplate.jpg
2010-12-17 21:59 <wolfspraul> one day I report all of this to homeland security
2010-12-17 22:00 <wpwrak> ;-))
2010-12-17 22:03 <wpwrak> for completeness, here's today's opponent: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg
2010-12-17 22:05 <kristianpaul> Great !
2010-12-17 22:05 <kristianpaul> adam will want one :-)
2010-12-17 22:06 <kristianpaul> You have nice workspace bte, (white) all here is brown :)
2010-12-17 22:06 <kristianpaul> s/bte/btw
2010-12-17 22:07 <kristianpaul> wow there are really tiny resistors in nemesis
2010-12-17 22:07 <kristianpaul> s/resistors/pasive components
2010-12-17 22:08 <kristianpaul> do you glue it some way before reflow?
2010-12-17 22:08 <kristianpaul> s/do/did
2010-12-17 22:09 <kristianpaul> oh i can see a Ben naked board on the right botton corner :)
2010-12-17 22:09 <wpwrak> (workspace) all DIY :)
2010-12-17 22:10 <wpwrak> (reflow) soldered them manually, no reflow
2010-12-17 22:10 <kristianpaul> so how helped the hotplate?
2010-12-17 22:11 <wpwrak> if i did reflow, i wouldn't need to glue them. they don't move around too easily. but i think i need to make a stencil for proper reflow. just depositing solder paste with a syringe doesn't produce nice results.
2010-12-17 22:11 <kristianpaul> ah ok
2010-12-17 22:12 <kristianpaul> is nemesis the bad-mcu guy?
2010-12-17 22:13 <wpwrak> the hot plate heats the board to about 100 C. so when for melting the solder, i only need to overcome a temperature difference of about 70 K, not 150 K. for simple things, this doesn't make a big difference. but in this case, i have a lot of ground and a gazillion vias connecting both sides. the ground planes suck away the heat. so there are several trouble spots where a 270 C iron is difficult or insufficient.
2010-12-17 22:14 <kristianpaul> why nemesis have that green-like wire, is not enought the pcb atenna?
2010-12-17 22:14 <wpwrak> with the hot plate, these problems disppear :)
2010-12-17 22:14 <wpwrak> (wire) this is for the scope, to monitor the voltage :)
2010-12-17 22:15 <wpwrak> (nemesis) yup, that's the problem board
2010-12-17 22:15 <wpwrak> i'm now making two new boards. i hope they'll end up being better.
2010-12-17 22:17 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i should actually integrate the iron into the table :) and while i'm at it, add also an area with under the table lighting, for aligning transfer sheets and such. ah well, so many ideas, so little time :)
2010-12-17 22:17 <kristianpaul> (270) wow which component needs that ?
2010-12-17 22:18 <kristianpaul> (integrate the iron into the table) good idea
2010-12-17 22:18 <wpwrak> 270 C is my regular setting with lead-free solder. not sure how hot the thing really gets. the tip is quite worn, so it's probably colder.
2010-12-17 22:21 <wolfspraul> why do you use lead-free solder?
2010-12-17 22:22 <kristianpaul> less hot to apply no?
2010-12-17 22:23 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: to give customs no excuse ;-)
2010-12-17 22:23 <kristianpaul> ahh
2010-12-17 22:23 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: no, it's actually very inconvenient to work with. needs more heat and generally doesn't handle as well as leaded solder.
2010-12-17 22:25 <wolfspraul> manual rework is always exempt from RoHS
2010-12-17 22:25 <wolfspraul> just fyi
2010-12-17 22:25 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: mechanical properties after soldering probably aren't so great either. e.g., i think it's more brittle. so things may break off under stress.
2010-12-17 22:25 <wolfspraul> there are many exceptions, but a simple claim of 'manual rework' is already enough
2010-12-17 22:25 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: also without the "re" in "rework" ?
2010-12-17 22:26 <wolfspraul> I'm not aware of any country that would really go after every gram of lead. it's quite political, and the important idea is 'self-enforcement' and to start with the big amounts somewhere, the stuff that is handled by the machines...
2010-12-17 22:26 <wpwrak> interesting exemption. they're nicer than i would have thought.
2010-12-17 22:27 <wolfspraul> well I'm also not aware of anybody who would use that excuse and keep their machines running with leaded solder while claiming the rework thing.
2010-12-17 22:27 <wolfspraul> maybe people are more honest than thought, sometimes
2010-12-17 22:27 <wolfspraul> but for that reason, alsmost all rework people use leaded solder still, because apart from you I have never heard anyone saying lead-free is easier to work with
2010-12-17 22:28 <wpwrak> well, customs have to process the package either way, so if they feel bored, they may cause trouble. also, they don't know if this is really a unique piece or whether there's a million more to come, each shipped individually (like bens :)
2010-12-17 22:28 <wolfspraul> (ah sorry, I misread you)
2010-12-17 22:28 <wolfspraul> you also say it "doesn't handle as well as leaded solder"
2010-12-17 22:28 <wpwrak> yeah. it's a pain.
2010-12-17 22:28 <wolfspraul> no I doubt there is any such check ever
2010-12-17 22:28 <wolfspraul> you think too complicated again :-)
2010-12-17 22:29 <wolfspraul> RoHS is a great success, it was very effective. but that was _because_ the system was setup as a 'self enforcement' system, and with generous exceptions.
2010-12-17 22:29 <wpwrak> well, based on my experience with argentine customs, i expect the very worst
2010-12-17 22:29 <wpwrak> ... and sometimes still get nasty surprises
2010-12-17 22:29 <kristianpaul> oh really?
2010-12-17 22:30 <wolfspraul> I highly doubt they will go after lead, but OK. every rework station in all of Asia uses leaded solder.
2010-12-17 22:30 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: well, i didn't have issues with RoHS so far. but they had me twice with "seguridad electrica"
2010-12-17 22:30 <wolfspraul> that means there is a good chance, < 10 %, that somewhere on every piece of electronic that are a few spots of leaded solder
2010-12-17 22:30 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: and they also hinted once that "PCB" could be a banned chemical
2010-12-17 22:31 <kristianpaul> ahh¡¡ (PCB)
2010-12-17 22:31 <kristianpaul> thats the top
2010-12-17 22:31 <kristianpaul> amazing
2010-12-17 22:32 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: so bottom line, in my experience you can safely use leaded solder for your work, and still be rohs compliant.
2010-12-17 22:32 <wolfspraul> there are also exceptions for machine cleaning and such
2010-12-17 22:32 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: so what would happen is that they'd hold it at customs. then i'd have to go to the airport, spend about half a day before i can hear what the issue is. then i could of course explain that pcb is the board and not the banned chemical. but they can of course simply reject this explanation.
2010-12-17 22:32 <wolfspraul> so when a factory switches between leaded and lead-free runs, they don't have to go crazy over the cleaning thing
2010-12-17 22:33 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (reject this explanation.) reasons? technically talking
2010-12-17 22:33 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: then i could either take a certainly complex and expensive bureaucratic appeal process, or find out how much of a financial incentive they would require for changing their mind
2010-12-17 22:33 <kristianpaul> ha
2010-12-17 22:33 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: no technical reasons. it's a plausible explanation. of course they know there's nothing wrong. but this way, they can improve their personal income.
2010-12-17 22:34 <kristianpaul> i hope i dont have to pass for that in colombia
2010-12-17 22:34 <wolfspraul> in my experience colombian customs is good
2010-12-17 22:34 <kristianpaul> (they can improve their personal income) Wellcome to South America :) !!
2010-12-17 22:35 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (cleaning) nice. all this sounds amazingly reasonable. what happened ? did they exclude the politicians when they made those regulations ? :)
2010-12-17 22:35 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yeah ...
2010-12-17 22:35 <kristianpaul> :/
2010-12-17 22:36 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: argentine customs are probably among the worst
2010-12-17 22:36 <wpwrak> well, i've heard good things said about russians/ex-USSR customs ...
2010-12-17 22:37 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I think they understood they are dealing with mass production.
2010-12-17 22:37 <wolfspraul> so even if you pull one out, of 10,000, and you find something, then what?
2010-12-17 22:38 <wolfspraul> so a top-down, fines, punishments, regulations to the last detail approach simply would not have worked
2010-12-17 22:38 <wpwrak> still, amazingly reasonable :)
2010-12-17 22:38 <wolfspraul> it needs to start on the other side, where the big machines are being operated
2010-12-17 22:38 <wolfspraul> focus on the x tons of solder first, not on reworks or all sorts of other small stuff happening in a real factory
2010-12-17 22:39 <wolfspraul> of course that removes the ability to deduct too much from an individual piece in front of you
2010-12-17 22:39 <wpwrak> oh, a system that has lots of traps is good for political purposes. e.g., you can enforce it mainly against unwanted foreign competitors
2010-12-17 22:39 <wolfspraul> but that was not the point, the point was to move mass-production away from leaded solder
2010-12-17 22:39 <wpwrak> collateral advantages :)
2010-12-17 22:39 <wolfspraul> so even if 1 piece in front of you is full of lead, that doesn't mean much in terms of RoHS, at least at the beginning
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> so anyway
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> you can relax about that in your home station, although the heating plate of course is very cool
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> ah
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> hot
2010-12-17 22:40 <wolfspraul> it also helps with large chips, or when you have to work with hot air
2010-12-17 22:41 <wolfspraul> it helps to avoid cracks in the vias inside pcbs
2010-12-17 22:41 <wpwrak> i probably need it anyway even with lead. the problem there are the vast ground planes.
2010-12-17 22:41 <wolfspraul> sure, it's good
2010-12-17 22:41 <wolfspraul> I was just surprised when you said you use lead-free solder for reworks.
2010-12-17 22:41 <wolfspraul> that sounds like additional trouble/risk for no good
2010-12-17 22:41 <wolfspraul> nobody is doing that, afaik
2010-12-17 22:42 <wpwrak> all my vias are hand-made. so they're a little special :) one advantage of the process is that they won't crack. (it's a solid wire)
2010-12-17 22:43 <wpwrak> kewl
2010-12-17 22:43 <wpwrak> welcomes back the 60/40 eutectic leaded solder :)
2010-12-17 22:43 <wolfspraul> I'll ask around a bit more...
2010-12-17 22:43 <wolfspraul> maybe some factories are proud to move to a 100% lead-free process? never heard of it though
2010-12-17 22:43 <kristianpaul> ah wikireader is awsome my mother really liked it :) (no trouble with classic keyboard)
2010-12-17 22:44 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: of course, the dark side of my environmental footprint would then be all those heavily leaded counterweights ;-)
2010-12-17 22:44 <wpwrak> wonders if tuxbrain did anything with them
2010-12-17 22:45 <kristianpaul> I need one
2010-12-17 22:45 <kristianpaul> my ben fall all the time..
2010-12-17 22:48 <wpwrak> i'm actually surprised that nobody seems to complain about this
2010-12-17 22:49 <kristianpaul> hmm may be they are taking it like a faeture? :)
2010-12-17 22:51 <kristianpaul> that could be an indicador of dailly use of it, on the desk
2010-12-17 22:51 <kristianpaul> wich  as pocket computer is hard to realize
2010-12-17 22:57 <wpwrak> hmm. if you can make people believe this is a feature, then i think we need a nobel price for marketing, and you're the first to get it :)
2010-12-17 23:15 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: just googled a bit and what I said about manual reworks and RoHS may be wrong.
2010-12-17 23:16 <wolfspraul> a good reminder that I need to refresh my RoHS knowledge again, it seems to be constantly evolving (in general tightening)
2010-12-17 23:17 <wpwrak> puts the 60/40 leaded solder back into the drawer :-(
2010-12-17 23:17 <wolfspraul> ha :-) relax...
2010-12-17 23:17 <wolfspraul> there are still many big fat exceptions
2010-12-17 23:18 <wolfspraul> it's a moving target
2010-12-17 23:18 <wolfspraul> of course the point is not to ever get more creative to define oneself into the exceptions
2010-12-17 23:18 <wpwrak> good for customs. so they can spring surprises
2010-12-17 23:18 <wolfspraul> http://www.rohs.gov.uk/content.aspx?id=15
2010-12-17 23:18 <wolfspraul> most people I have seen that deal with rohs take it very seriously and professionally, it's quite nice actually
2010-12-17 23:19 <wolfspraul> on the enforcement side, there is little if any aggression, on the production side, there is little if any cutting corners
2010-12-17 23:19 <wolfspraul> the telecommunications industry seems to have been quite active, see exemption 7b for lead
2010-12-17 23:21 <wolfspraul> "Lead in solders for servers, storage and storage array systems, network infrastructure equipment for switching, signalling, transmission, and network management for telecommunications"
2010-12-17 23:21 <wpwrak> yeah, pretty broad ;-)
2010-12-17 23:21 <wolfspraul> so who knows. I still think your manual reworks are totally safe, even with leaded solder.
2010-12-17 23:21 <wpwrak> amazingly, no exceptions for automotive
2010-12-17 23:21 <wolfspraul> not reworks
2010-12-17 23:21 <wolfspraul> manual 'works'
2010-12-17 23:22 <wolfspraul> but I need to take this more serious again too, will dig next time I visit a manufacturer.
2010-12-17 23:22 <wolfspraul> maybe they are already further than I realize
2010-12-17 23:23 <wolfspraul> on that website (seems UK related), it says about enforcement "We will help those that are aiming to comply and pursue vigorously those that intend to flout compliance."
2010-12-17 23:28 <wpwrak> repair of "new" (> july 2006) devices is also under the directive
2010-12-17 23:28 <wpwrak> http://www.rohs.gov.uk/FAQs.aspx
2010-12-17 23:30 <wpwrak> there's an exception for demonstration purposes, but the interpretation may be quite narrow, perhaps only for trade shows and such, not even general in-house evaluation
2010-12-17 23:35 <wpwrak> well, it's probably okay: "Prototypes for experimentation may be used providing they are not made available on the EU market."
2010-12-17 23:36 <wpwrak> the next paragraph is confusing, though
2010-12-17 23:38 <wpwrak> "Ultimately only the courts can provide a definitive answer on the meaning of the Regulations," yeah :)
2010-12-17 23:38 <wpwrak> we need wikilaws ! then anything with "weasel words" gets deleted ;-)
2010-12-17 23:39 <wolfspraul> from what I hear, rohs is not about customs trying to hunt down individual products
2010-12-17 23:39 <wolfspraul> that would be totally impossible given the complexity of it
2010-12-17 23:40 <wolfspraul> it's about authorities working with the industry
2010-12-17 23:40 <wolfspraul> also I think rohs will be tightened more, it's such a big success
2010-12-17 23:40 <wolfspraul> so more substances, processes, what not can be attached to it :-)
2010-12-17 23:42 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: what do you think about introducing datasheet pdf urls into boom?
2010-12-17 23:45 <wpwrak> i think the feature per se is desirable. semanstics aren't trivial, though.
2010-12-17 23:45 <wpwrak> for best effect, the data sheets would come from multiple sources, including distributors.
2010-12-17 23:46 <wpwrak> si the digi-key database download would also try to access data sheets, and make them available for the respective digi-key part numbers
2010-12-17 23:46 <qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed two generated png files, leaving svg originals http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/fb852f7
2010-12-17 23:46 <wolfspraul> got it, and sounds good. on the todo list then...
2010-12-17 23:47 <wpwrak> yup
2010-12-17 23:48 <wpwrak> there are several access paths. e.g., by component reference, a) for the "current" data, b) for historical data.
2010-12-17 23:48 <wpwrak> (b) could be outside boom, e.g., just archive a snapshot when doing something with the data)
2010-12-17 23:49 <wpwrak> then by item in an order
2010-12-17 23:50 <wpwrak> and finally in a yet-to-be-written component browser that would interact with kicad when adding a component and its characteristics in the schematics (or editing, etc.)
2010-12-17 23:54 <wpwrak> that's the one that would make carlos happy :)