2010-12-15 00:00 I'm not sure about  the mechanical coupling between boards 2010-12-15 00:00 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Battery_controllers.jpg 2010-12-15 00:01 You can see that each board has a different connector? 2010-12-15 00:01 non a common block connector 2010-12-15 00:02 yes but they all seem mostly to be a random variation of P+ P- C D T 2010-12-15 00:02 andres-calderon: if you still have these battery controllers, could you please take a high-resolution photo of each and upload it somewhere ? (qi-hardware.com wiki or such) 2010-12-15 00:02 andres-calderon: that way, more people can try to find out how these thingies work 2010-12-15 00:03 wpwrak ok, I'll upload them. 2010-12-15 00:03 thanks ! 2010-12-15 00:03 unfortunately there is quite a bit of glue on some of them 2010-12-15 00:03 andres-calderon: given how the industry works, there is very little real innovation actually 2010-12-15 00:03 let's hope for the best then :) 2010-12-15 00:03 so even though every company wants to have their own connector to sell batteries at a huge margin, electrically it's all the same 2010-12-15 00:04 just for small variations in the mechanical alignment and shape of the connector (maybe patented :-)) 2010-12-15 00:04 I would say that's true for anybody but Apple, maybe Sony. 2010-12-15 00:04 the rest is all the same, no worries :-) 2010-12-15 00:04 once you understand the circuit, that is 2010-12-15 00:04 jeje... I like the idea of using some of them. 2010-12-15 00:05 But as I said, I worry about the mechanical coupling. 2010-12-15 00:05 andres-calderon: what is actually the plan so far for the power supply of xue ? i haven't found any power connector. 2010-12-15 00:06 wpwrak design from scratch,  again.. 2010-12-15 00:07 wpwrak: maybe you saw above, I asked about Sensor PSU and Andres said "copied from Aptina reference design unchecked" 2010-12-15 00:07 he likes the idea of moving the sensor (and sensor psu) to a daughterboard 2010-12-15 00:07 I chose wrong ... none of the AiT component is available. 2010-12-15 00:07 andres-calderon: hm. okay, there's one (non-technical) oddity: wolfgang mentioned that carlos told him xue was ready for production and carlos was complaining that wolfgang didn't move forward. 2010-12-15 00:08 andres-calderon: i think that, from this, wolfgang got the idea that also you would consider xue to be "finished". and he was disappointed to find out that the reality is very different. 2010-12-15 00:08 xue was NOT ready for production 2010-12-15 00:08 andres-calderon: so .. what happened ? :-) 2010-12-15 00:09 andres-calderon: (NOT ready) good that we agree on this ;-) 2010-12-15 00:09 wpwrak Carlos is very enthusiastic. 2010-12-15 00:09 has been a misunderstanding 2010-12-15 00:09 wolfspraul: (2nd psu) yes, that's a different story. (having everything sensor-related on the same board makes perfect sense, of course) 2010-12-15 00:11 andres-calderon: okay. is there any external pressure on the schedule ? e.g., have you or has carlos committed any schedule in the near future to any presentations, customers, or such ? 2010-12-15 00:12 wpwrak We have no external pressure. 2010-12-15 00:12 andres-calderon: because if he or you feels in a rush for some reason, that's probably also something wolfgang should know. if only to correct unrealistic expectations :-) but sometimes, things can also be helped in other ways 2010-12-15 00:12 okay, great. just a communication glitch then. 2010-12-15 00:13 Yes, an stupid glitch :) 2010-12-15 00:13 just noise in the channel 2010-12-15 00:13 heh ;-) 2010-12-15 00:15 andres-calderon: now .. now that it seems quite a few things will change, are there any other items in the current xue design that you'd rather change ? 2010-12-15 00:15 I feel lost with the design of the PSU. We not have experience with chinese and TW manufactures... 2010-12-15 00:15 andres-calderon: going forward, let's try to use only public communication to discuss the state and progress and plan for Xue 2010-12-15 00:15 andres-calderon: you mean the AiT parts ? where does this design came from ? 2010-12-15 00:16 Yes, AiT parts... 2010-12-15 00:16 for example this channel is logged, so it helps avoid misunderstandings 2010-12-15 00:16 http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/ 2010-12-15 00:16 ok, bookmarked. 2010-12-15 00:17 andres-calderon: how do you want to proceed now? where do you want to start? 2010-12-15 00:17 I can try to cleanup the schematics names today. 2010-12-15 00:17 and maybe add pdfs to BOOKSHELF little by little 2010-12-15 00:18 andres-calderon: you can consider parts we use in Milkymist One, see http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM 2010-12-15 00:18 We need to change of vision, design the product, not just a board. 2010-12-15 00:18 or parts used in the Ben 2010-12-15 00:19 andres-calderon: what are the specific use cases you had in mind ? you mentioned automotive 2010-12-15 00:19 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/qi_avt2/v1.0/bom/avt2_RC1_bom.ods 2010-12-15 00:19 and finally, here is stuff I have in inventory: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory 2010-12-15 00:20 nice componente, but very expensive : http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?genericPartNumber=pth04000w&fileType=pdf 2010-12-15 00:20 I can explain my vision :-) 2010-12-15 00:20 we all see something, don't we :-) 2010-12-15 00:20 so first it's about another application of the Milkymist SoC 2010-12-15 00:20 then it's about the KiCad process, including fped, boom 2010-12-15 00:21 then it's mobile, battery powered should be possible 2010-12-15 00:21 for sourcing, one rule i found quite useful is that anything that digi-key don't stock is a potential problem :) 2010-12-15 00:21 that's not always a good rule, but of course if digikey has something in 'real' quantities, that's a good indicator 2010-12-15 00:22 I like the idea of making the expansion header more central in the design, thus also moving the Aptina sensor there 2010-12-15 00:22 wpwrak:  I will use the digikey  heuristic 2010-12-15 00:22 so basically the Xue board provides basic digital interfaces, the fpga, usb, ethernet, microsd, nand, etc. 2010-12-15 00:22 ok 2010-12-15 00:23 whereas the expansion boards provide analog/sensor stuff, image sensors, rf front-end boards, whatever 2010-12-15 00:23 my vision: http://www.matrox.com/imaging/en/products/smart_cameras/iris_gt/ 2010-12-15 00:23 but the first application would just be the camera as discussed 2010-12-15 00:23 an artificial vision platform 2010-12-15 00:23 we chose the APtina sensor already, and I have it in stock (bad decision, too early!) 2010-12-15 00:23 :-) 2010-12-15 00:24 so that's roughly my vision 2010-12-15 00:24 on the current Xue, I would remove the AVR 2010-12-15 00:24 I would move the Aptina to a daugtherboard (just move the expansion header in a little) 2010-12-15 00:25 I would remove the ft2232d and provide the same headers as on milkymist one, for use with the jtag-serial daughterboards I am already making 2010-12-15 00:25 I would investigate the notebook battery controllers see whether that's a quick and dirty solution to hookup batteries to Xue 2010-12-15 00:25 remove AVR -> probably remove the four FAN4010 too 2010-12-15 00:26 HDR is a nice feature. We will gain attention  for this feature. 2010-12-15 00:26 I would leave the spi-nand as is, a switch to nor flash would destroy too much value in Xue and I guess the technical challenge of spi-nand is under control 2010-12-15 00:26 sure remove the FAN 2010-12-15 00:26 oh my vision is also to keep the costs down 2010-12-15 00:26 that's one reason why I like spi-nand 2010-12-15 00:27 and why I like to remove the ft2232, because later less and less people will need it, so daughterboard is better, especially since we have it already due to m1 2010-12-15 00:27 I do not like the  jtag daugtherboard connector...  is enormous 2010-12-15 00:27 maybe we can bring the cost of the xue base board under 100 USD 2010-12-15 00:27 that would be cool 2010-12-15 00:27 it's smaller than all the chips you put on the board now 2010-12-15 00:27 wolfspraul: sharing the ft2232 with MM1 also reduces the design risk 2010-12-15 00:28 if one design idea of xue is the expansion header, that means the board will gain height anyway 2010-12-15 00:28 so another (small) daughterboard somewhere will not make it more bulky overall 2010-12-15 00:29 just fill space that would otherwise be air 2010-12-15 00:29 in fact, are 2 connectors...  but with the space released by the CIS boards.. may be will be a good choice 2010-12-15 00:29 the Ethernet connector for example is really big, I doubt the jtag-serial daughterboard on xue would even be higher than that connector 2010-12-15 00:30 (jtag) hmm, 2mm spacing, 14 pins of which ~9 are used 2010-12-15 00:30 here's a picture of the little thing 2010-12-15 00:30 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Jtag-serial-board-on-m1.jpg 2010-12-15 00:30 this is the connector: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.z_homepage_link=hp_go_button&KeyWords=87832-1420&x=0&y=0&=go 2010-12-15 00:31 (according to the MM1 schematics) 2010-12-15 00:31 I have the jtag-serial board already 2010-12-15 00:31 16.65 x 6.3 mm 2010-12-15 00:31 so using the same board multiple times is good for me 2010-12-15 00:31 ok, I think that  can work 2010-12-15 00:32 have mercy with the poor manufacturer :-) 2010-12-15 00:32 i like the idea of sharing jtag 2010-12-15 00:32 wpwrak: it's 2 connectors, Sebastien's idea :-) 2010-12-15 00:32 fewer boards to make 2010-12-15 00:32 wolfspraul I forgot!!, today arrived the M12 holders 2010-12-15 00:32 nice idea, creates a lot of problems 2010-12-15 00:33 2 ? 2010-12-15 00:33 but now we did it, so what 2010-12-15 00:33 yes, he had a NICE IDEA 2010-12-15 00:33 J6 and ... 2010-12-15 00:33 don't we like nice ideas in hardware and mechanical? 2010-12-15 00:33 he had the idea to put the jtag and serial connectors next to each other, at a certain distance 2010-12-15 00:33 and then have the board connect to both of them at once 2010-12-15 00:33 cool, eh/ 2010-12-15 00:33 ? 2010-12-15 00:34 unfortunately we forgot how difficult it would be to find 2 matching pairs of connectors that come out at exactly the same height 2010-12-15 00:34 why would that be difficult ? pick from the same series 2010-12-15 00:34 there are 2 connectors 2010-12-15 00:34 you still have positioning tolerances and all that 2010-12-15 00:35 one is the 7*2 you pointed out 2010-12-15 00:35 sure, but same series = same nominal dimensions 2010-12-15 00:35 the other one is a 4 pin serial connector 2010-12-15 00:35 different pitch? 2010-12-15 00:35 J5 then 2010-12-15 00:35 I am gladly sourcing them from you. 2010-12-15 00:35 matching pairs please :-) 2010-12-15 00:35 the problem is not the pitch, but the height 2010-12-15 00:35 you have 2 boards, top and bottom 2010-12-15 00:35 but they are connected to each other with 2 connectors 2010-12-15 00:35 so the 2 connectors (male and female) both need to have the same height 2010-12-15 00:36 (same series) e.g., for 100 mil headers, you get all sorts of shapes, 1xN and 2xN with the same general shape within the same series 2010-12-15 00:36 They share the same pitch? 2010-12-15 00:36 here's the tool that helps us out right now :-) 2010-12-15 00:36 http://www.vskrems-lerchenfeld.ac.at/arbeitsmaterialien/anlautbilder/zange.jpg 2010-12-15 00:36 MM1 schematics just say "Header 4" for J5. grrr. 2010-12-15 00:36 ;-)) 2010-12-15 00:37 the issue is HEIGHT 2010-12-15 00:37 we are talking about 4 connectors in total, right? 2010-12-15 00:37 2 on the top, 2 on the bottom 2010-12-15 00:37 and they need to meet in the middle at the same height 2010-12-15 00:37 wolfspraul: no problem so far :) 2010-12-15 00:37 wolfspraul: no. only each pair has to have the same height. 2010-12-15 00:38 we've made a few of these boards already, and every time it was a hassle with the height, well, unless for the help of the tool I just pointed to :-) 2010-12-15 00:38 but anyway 2010-12-15 00:38 wolfspraul: so take two board-to-board connectors, M and F. put M:1x4 and F:2x7 on one board and F:1x4 and M:2x7 on the other 2010-12-15 00:38 how we have those jtag-serial boards already 2010-12-15 00:38 (or make one all-male and the other all-female) 2010-12-15 00:39 yes and then most likely the two will not match 2010-12-15 00:39 you probably mixed series. that's when the problems start ;-) 2010-12-15 00:39 but anyway, for Xue this is no issue 2010-12-15 00:39 just use the same connectors as on m1, done 2010-12-15 00:40 pick from the m1 bom 2010-12-15 00:40 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM 2010-12-15 00:40 as long as you stay within the same series, the only differences you get are component tolerances and positioning errors. can't avoid these. but they're usually not overly bad. 2010-12-15 00:40 do we have a picture of MM1 jtag ? 2010-12-15 00:40 the serial connector may get in the way 2010-12-15 00:41 wpwrak http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Jtag-serial-board-on-m1.jpg 2010-12-15 00:42 wpwrak: serial connector in the way? 2010-12-15 00:42 maybe we misunderstand 2010-12-15 00:42 thanks ! do we also have the other side ? 2010-12-15 00:42 they are _BOTH_ between the main pcb and the jtag-serial board 2010-12-15 00:42 wolfspraul: i think xue only has jtag, no serial 2010-12-15 00:42 maybe it should have serial as well? 2010-12-15 00:42 wolfspraul: yes. so there has to be room for where serial goes. or that, yes 2010-12-15 00:43 we have the jtag-serial board, and will get this supported out of the box in upstream tools 2010-12-15 00:43 something worthwhile reusing, I think 2010-12-15 00:43 http://www.stm.com.tw/test/pdf-1/c24184.pdf 2010-12-15 00:43 http://www.molex.com/pdm_docs/sd/878321420_sd.pdf 2010-12-15 00:43 those are the 2 connectors from m1, if xue uses the same, all perfect for me 2010-12-15 00:44 they need to be in the same distance to each other too, as on m1 2010-12-15 00:44 I have not Altium. I need these measures. 2010-12-15 00:44 it's not in Altium 2010-12-15 00:45 100% kicad 2010-12-15 00:45 of course! jeje 2010-12-15 00:45 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/source/tree/master/ 2010-12-15 00:45 that's the jtag-serial side, but it should exactly match the other side 2010-12-15 00:46 i know.. I'm almost asleep, sorry 2010-12-15 00:46 then sleep a bit, we learnt a lot already :-) 2010-12-15 00:46 thanks for sharing your views! 2010-12-15 00:47 btw, I'm currently making 100 of these critters, I think that's the first 'real' KiCad run in a while 2010-12-15 00:47 unfortunately no fped, didn't find the time to fpedize it 2010-12-15 00:48 we need to seriously review the issue of the PSU. I listen carefully any idea. 2010-12-15 00:48 but we use the KiCad generated gerbers for pcb, stencil, etc. 2010-12-15 00:48 andres-calderon: is the PSU on Ben NanoNote any good? 2010-12-15 00:49 I only have extremely high-level thoughts on the psu. 2010-12-15 00:49 I can  use the charger BEN 2010-12-15 00:49 probably not very helpful 2010-12-15 00:49 well the Ben has a battery 2010-12-15 00:49 and it's very robust 2010-12-15 00:49 you can plug in or out the battery 2010-12-15 00:49 it will start charging 2010-12-15 00:49 it all seems to work 2010-12-15 00:49 and it's all done in a simple and cheap circuit, afaik 2010-12-15 00:50 Xue has different, I understand higher, power requirements? So I'm not sure whether the Ben circuit applies. 2010-12-15 00:50 ben charger isn't too horrible. you can probably get rid of the FETs with a different chip, though, without picking anything overly exotic 2010-12-15 00:50 andres-calderon: did yousee the link to the Ben BOM? 2010-12-15 00:51 yes 2010-12-15 00:51 the parts should be in there, let me check (it's already a while ago...) 2010-12-15 00:51 wolfspraul: are all the ben parts considered easily available ? 2010-12-15 00:51 that's a bit too broad 2010-12-15 00:51 hehe ;-) 2010-12-15 00:51 but definitely not a more bold statement than saying 'check digikey' 2010-12-15 00:52 wolfspraul: the BEN battery  charger can be enough 2010-12-15 00:52 so if 'check digikey' works, then 'ben parts can generally be considered widely available' also works 2010-12-15 00:52 *grin* 2010-12-15 00:52 well, same as in digikey, there can be exceptions/surprises on individual chips 2010-12-15 00:52 but for the most part, yes, sure, can be assumed to be widely available 2010-12-15 00:54 simple but not quite correct rules are good. with them, you can impress people, because those simple rules show the clarity of how you see simplicity in the complexity. and you can impress people again when the rules don't work, because you wisely deviate from the beaten path where appropriate. you can't lose ;-) 2010-12-15 00:54 hmm, that ben .ods bom is not so great 2010-12-15 00:54 no links to datasheets 2010-12-15 00:54 we have improved since then :-) 2010-12-15 00:55 you need to cross-reference it with the schematics 2010-12-15 00:55 i like the inventory 2010-12-15 00:55 but other than that it works 2010-12-15 00:55 oh, I want to get the inventory into boom standard :-) 2010-12-15 00:55 but one by one 2010-12-15 00:55 I go to sleep. Bye 2010-12-15 00:55 'night 2010-12-15 00:55 andres-calderon: cya ! 2010-12-15 00:56 wpwrak: buenas noches 2010-12-15 00:56 with each digi-key parcel i get, i feel guilty for not tracking them in a boom-friendly format 2010-12-15 01:01 boom united 2010-12-15 01:02 amateurs of the world connect to form the largest inventory of strange stuff 2010-12-15 01:02 heh. larger than digi-key's database ;-) 2010-12-15 01:18 well, i'd say the xue situation looks a lot friendlier than it did just two days ago. alas, also with a schedule that extends deeper into 2011. 2010-12-15 01:19 I enjoy walking my mind through it. 2010-12-15 01:20 it's scary to read how many things are supposedly based on my suggestions or decisions though 2010-12-15 01:20 very scary 2010-12-15 01:20 good :) 2010-12-15 01:20 but oh well 2010-12-15 01:20 yes, indeed ;-) 2010-12-15 01:20 we found the implicit answer to the ownership question 2010-12-15 01:23 yes but if that's all, it means the board is doomed 2010-12-15 01:23 good thing I think this is not all 2010-12-15 01:27 yeah, that ownership needs to move again. you don't need it :-) 2010-12-15 01:27 let's hope andres has enough time to do all the things that need doing 2010-12-15 01:32 yes ! the fped fix fixed the weird build problem on sh4 ! :) 2010-12-15 01:46 wpwrak: sh4, that's where fped will take off 2010-12-15 01:46 guaranteed 2010-12-15 01:50 definitely ;-) 2010-12-15 01:51 debian on sh4 appears to have some odd shell. either a different kind of shell, or something much older or newer than the rest. 2010-12-15 01:51 that shell prints the "Aborted" when a program aborts not to that program's stderr but to the shell's stderr. this threw off my regression tests. 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: migrated Excellon reader from drl2gp http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/848eb2a 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: adding support for dril/mill substitutions (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b1652fc 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: completed support for dril/mill conversions http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/7a64e42 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: added command "append", improved file output error checking http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b8f6545 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: "array" did not affect subsequently loaded files http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b76d17f 2010-12-15 04:38 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: apply translation after loading a file only to the new file http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/7cb25c5 2010-12-15 04:41 hmm ... "cannot boot after fast power cycling" looks like quite the understatement. wasn't that "cannot boot ever after" yesterday ? ;-) 2010-12-15 04:43 the production/smt note must be from sebastien ;-) 2010-12-15 04:43 wpwrak, umm...i need write later 2010-12-15 04:44 ha...no...i did in honest. :) 2010-12-15 04:44 i wrote what i thought they are not good enough.. 2010-12-15 04:44 we're not OM, pls..:) 2010-12-15 04:45 adamwang: then his language rubs off ;-) 2010-12-15 04:46 :) 2010-12-15 04:46 i can see my parts here some of them had already pins lifted up 2010-12-15 04:47 wpwrak: no no :-) 2010-12-15 04:47 the bootup issues are difficult, and probably multiple bugs masking each other 2010-12-15 04:47 but if we ship out a board, it means we feel it's usable 2010-12-15 04:47 bulk parts are sort of management with One 'adam'...hehe .:) 2010-12-15 04:47 it's called 'early developer kit' 2010-12-15 04:47 the power cycles we did were pretty drastic 2010-12-15 04:47 hundreds of cycles 200ms 100ms etc. 2010-12-15 04:48 maybe the test was stupid 2010-12-15 04:48 if you use a hammer and smash down on the board you will also see a problem :-) 2010-12-15 04:48 wolfspraul: still, that shouldn't kill the board 2010-12-15 04:48 it 'shouldn't' I agree, but even the setup is already special with a lab supply and a fast on-off switch 2010-12-15 04:48 you cannot even try this with the supplied power supply 2010-12-15 04:49 wolfspraul: poorly inserted connector ? :) 2010-12-15 04:49 mechanically you cannot be that fast, maybe if you have a switch further down somewhere 2010-12-15 04:49 we can't resolve it here so let's see what further tests show 2010-12-15 04:49 even if this test was stupid at all, it's still existed. 2010-12-15 04:49 maybe Sebastien can find some root causes of flash corruption 2010-12-15 04:49 maybe the Xilinx FAE can find some root causes in the fpga power-up sequence 2010-12-15 04:49 slowly we will understand it better 2010-12-15 04:50 all Xilinx boards show this too, btw 2010-12-15 04:50 Sebastien is aware of this bug forever, he even thinks it might be a 'silicon bug' although I think we should not jump to such conclusions and just dig in step by step 2010-12-15 04:50 he has seen this bug on the ml-401 xilinx board, etc. 2010-12-15 04:51 all under control :-) 2010-12-15 04:52 but flash corruption != the power cycle thing, right ? 2010-12-15 04:52 the latter is terminal, the former not 2010-12-15 04:53 then there are 2 stages of 'terminal' 2010-12-15 04:53 flash corruption can be remedied with reflashing 2010-12-15 04:53 okay, ICU :) 2010-12-15 04:53 this bug is rare, so tracking it down is hard. there may be multiple bugs masking each other. 2010-12-15 04:53 if you are talking about something you have seen once, reading too much into it doesn't help. 2010-12-15 04:54 this whole thing is unfortunate, without a doubt 2010-12-15 04:54 we won't rest until it is fully understood and more robust 2010-12-15 04:54 we had it on rc1 as well, btw, only that there were so few boards that it almost never showed up 2010-12-15 04:55 Adam has a pretty good attack plan. 2010-12-15 04:55 and I'm sure if Sebastien can reproduce it, every time he can he will try to peel off another layer from the onion, no? :-) 2010-12-15 04:56 also I don't want to get completely side-tracked by this bug. that's the advantage of working with 40 boards first-hand for 2 weeks. I have a pretty good feeling on the severity of issues. 2010-12-15 04:56 this one, even though it sounds scary, is not at the top 2010-12-15 04:56 the flash corruption doesn't sound so nasty. inconvenient for sure, and if it happens frequenty and under any operating condition, may disqualify the device for the intended use. but that's probably still a bit out. 2010-12-15 04:56 I highly doubt that. 2010-12-15 04:57 there is a lot of alpha-level code in the stack 2010-12-15 04:57 keep in mind how 'early' all this is 2010-12-15 04:57 yes, that's why i say it still takes a while before this becomes the #1 blocker 2010-12-15 04:57 at those low levels hardware and software need to get really cozy with each other to become 'robust' to the higher levels 2010-12-15 04:57 of course, for a VJ it would be rather embarrassing if the box all of a sudden doesn't boot ;-) 2010-12-15 04:58 maybe the flash writing or reading routines need to become more forgiving 2010-12-15 04:58 it's hard to say 2010-12-15 04:58 also I doubt sebastien will stop everything else and only hunt down this thing, it's too rare 2010-12-15 04:58 it's not the right priority 2010-12-15 04:59 put in some way to log/see what's going on, slowly make the codes more robust 2010-12-15 04:59 that's the way to go 2010-12-15 04:59 but the fpga killer could be trouble even now. particularly if you don't know what exactly triggers it. could be that your test that needs hundreds of cycles is not the most "efficient" or common way to make it happen. 2010-12-15 04:59 meanwhile Adam will go to the Xilinx FAE and that should be very nice too 2010-12-15 04:59 yup 2010-12-15 04:59 yeah we treated those 2 boards pretty badly, he he 2010-12-15 05:00 it's close to the hammer 2010-12-15 05:00 but once I go into testing mode, well, I do 2010-12-15 05:00 adamwang: did I personally 'terminate' those 2, or you 1 and me 1? I forgot... 2010-12-15 05:00 :-) 2010-12-15 05:00 they will haunt you in your dreams 2010-12-15 05:01 well I took it sportive. I said 'let's see what's really going on in this power cycling thing' "let's stress test it a bit" 2010-12-15 05:01 that was not a brilliant idea in hindsight 2010-12-15 05:01 0x2c you & me did, 0x07 you did. your hands were lucky.! :) 2010-12-15 05:01 so now I handed back to cooler heads 2010-12-15 05:02 I seriously forgot that it doesn't make sense to run a test that is totally removed from normal use patterns. 2010-12-15 05:02 wolfspraul: get the process patented. then, when any other device fails in a remotely similar way, sue them ;-) 2010-12-15 05:02 at some point anything can be 'unforeseen' and damage the board. 2010-12-15 05:02 run it in a sauna? 2010-12-15 05:02 etc. 2010-12-15 05:02 it's also a bit stupid 2010-12-15 05:03 maybe a VJ wants to perform in a Turkish steam bath? 2010-12-15 05:03 we should test that 2010-12-15 05:03 hey, don't say in stupid way 2010-12-15 05:03 humidity so high that there will be drops of water everywhere immediately 2010-12-15 05:03 water-proofing the box wouldn't be the worst possible idea 2010-12-15 05:03 adamwang: well I think it was a bit not-thought-through. so you were right :-) 2010-12-15 05:04 any software test plan you guys are also pretty sure they are perfect? That's the same story on h/w 2010-12-15 05:04 you suggested to first study some more, then test. but I thought test first, collect data :-) 2010-12-15 05:04 now we have data 2010-12-15 05:04 adamwang: yes but software tests normally don't leave destroyed stuff behind. 2010-12-15 05:04 right. 2010-12-15 05:04 that's probably where my obsession comes from. 2010-12-15 05:04 not only do clubs sometimes get humid, but there can also be spilled drinks if the VJ perimeter security isn't attentive enough 2010-12-15 05:04 so anyway 2010-12-15 05:04 I hold back a little. 2010-12-15 05:04 we will improve this boot-bug thing. 2010-12-15 05:05 but not out of proportion, no need to pass the stupid Wolfgang test. We should focus on really valuable use cases. 2010-12-15 05:06 adamwang: do you know roughly when you plan to go to the Xilinx FAE? 2010-12-15 05:07 today just work on wiki and others 2010-12-15 05:08 before I go  to there, I'd like to measure/scope all falling pulse after power down. 2010-12-15 05:08 adamwang: can you reproduce the .56A problem? 2010-12-15 05:08 i'd prefer i plot all power sequence and some control signals done before I go 2010-12-15 05:09 I think it's hard when you try to power-off for >2 seconds 2010-12-15 05:09 but when you cycle too fast, maybe it's a separate issue then? 2010-12-15 05:09 right, i think i can reproduce easily, then scope all supplies (falling edges).. 2010-12-15 05:10 reproduce with fast power cycles, or with slow power cycles? 2010-12-15 05:10 then compared to rising edges recorded first... 2010-12-15 05:10 no 2010-12-15 05:10 i want to reproduce it by slow power cycles (say > 2s) 2010-12-15 05:11 ok good 2010-12-15 05:11 this step first to capture falling edges pulse then read it 2010-12-15 05:12 there're 4 assembly: 2010-12-15 05:12 power up (0.44A) rising edges 2010-12-15 05:12 power down (0.44A) falling edges 2010-12-15 05:12 power up (0.55A) rising edges 2010-12-15 05:13 power down(0.55A) falling edges 2010-12-15 05:13 god! 2010-12-15 05:13 got it 2010-12-15 05:13 publish it all in a wiki page later, could be valuable for others too 2010-12-15 05:13 sebastien thinks he has seen power-up problems on every spartan-6 board, if I remember correctly 2010-12-15 05:15 sure, just to see boards itself behaviour first. I think we will all haunt in this. :) 2010-12-15 05:16 well...so before that, i don't want to do more guess. 2010-12-15 05:17 agreed 2010-12-15 05:17 :-) 2010-12-15 05:17 I learnt my lesson 2010-12-15 05:17 some peaceful study first 2010-12-15 05:17 meanwhile development and use of Milkymist One can go in parallel 2010-12-15 05:46 wolfspraul: can you bring one of the "terminated" boards with you to Berlin? 2010-12-15 05:47 no, they are in Taipei 2010-12-15 05:47 I want to give Adam some time now 2010-12-15 05:47 ah, I thought you still were in Taipei... 2010-12-15 05:47 when he 'releases' them we can send one to you 2010-12-15 05:48 but I really think we are better off slowing this down a little and not all jumping onto this one bug 2010-12-15 05:48 maybe they can even be helpful with the Xilinx FAE, who knows 2010-12-15 05:48 give them some time... 2010-12-15 06:15 hey guys, is there openssl port for the nanonote yet? 2010-12-15 06:16 is there not? I would hope so... 2010-12-15 06:17 no idea 2010-12-15 06:17 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/packages/NanoNote/Ben/latest/ 2010-12-15 06:17 but one guy contacted me asking about the nanonote 2010-12-15 06:17 the packages are outdated, but there are a number of openssl packages there 2010-12-15 06:17 I don't know whether it's included in the latest image 2010-12-15 06:17 he wants to know if nanonote can work as a password key 2010-12-15 06:18 yes definitely, it can 2010-12-15 06:18 so you plug it into a pc and it works as a usb disk mode 2010-12-15 06:18 out of the box maybe not though, more software work needed 2010-12-15 06:18 and, as an unrelated feature it has openssl for encrypting data 2010-12-15 06:19 wolfspraul, are you guys willing to help him if he has any problems with realizing his goals? 2010-12-15 06:20 i don't want to recommend some guy a 100EUR device if he wants to buy it only for one thing and this thing cannot be done with it 2010-12-15 06:20 so he can later blame me for wasting his money ;) 2010-12-15 06:21 he, of course we are willing to help 2010-12-15 06:21 we need use cases and demanding users 2010-12-15 06:21 on the other hand, he does need to be somewhat forgiving, realistically 2010-12-15 06:22 but yeah, please. send him here or email or anything, and we work on it. 2010-12-15 06:23 hmm.. he seems to have no skills to realize his idea himself 2010-12-15 06:23 he was hoping for a device that already has software for his needs 2010-12-15 06:23 why use a complete computer for this? 2010-12-15 06:24 lekernel_, do you know any non-full computer devices that can change HIDs and are programmable? 2010-12-15 06:24 and are cheaper than a nanonote? 2010-12-15 06:24 *usb hids 2010-12-15 06:26 there's the at90 usb key, but with no software skills it's going to be hard to get to work 2010-12-15 06:26 same for nanonote anyway 2010-12-15 06:26 he seems to have some skills 2010-12-15 06:26 you know, the generic linux ones 2010-12-15 06:27 but nothing to implement usb hid emulation 2010-12-15 06:27 he says he needs an opensource platform, so usb keys are useless 2010-12-15 06:28 I said at90 ... http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools_card.asp?tool_id=3879 2010-12-15 06:28 he also says he needs at least 4 buttons and LCD 2010-12-15 06:28 so nanonote looks perfect for his needs 2010-12-15 06:55 Hi 2010-12-15 06:58 I'm thinking of using the design of nano charger http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/9/9c/Lb60_schematic.pdf 2010-12-15 06:59 hi good morning! 2010-12-15 07:03 the Nano charger need one ADC input (+VBAT signal), 2010-12-15 07:05 I worry a little with the  charger operation when the fpga is not programmed to control the charger. 2010-12-15 07:08 the Jz4720 ADC is connected to that line? (not sure what you mean) if the jz4720 can control it, why shouldn't the fpga be able to control it? 2010-12-15 07:09 well, I have no overview over the circuit :-) 2010-12-15 07:10 PBAT/ADIN0 pin 92 2010-12-15 07:10 from de 7z47xx IC 2010-12-15 07:14 I'm going to study better the design of the NN charger. Maybe I'm asking too early. 2010-12-15 07:15 your concern is that the fpga cannot control that wire? I know too little to give meaningful feedback. 2010-12-15 07:15 of course I can study too and start learning :-) 2010-12-15 07:23 andres-calderon: ahh, you mentioned that you received the M12 lense holders? 2010-12-15 07:23 what do you think? 2010-12-15 07:23 next time I will start to buy some M12 lenses 2010-12-15 07:24 fine out which lenses exist, different types (IR filter, no IR filter, telecentric, wide-angle, etc) 2010-12-15 07:25 wolfspraul the holders seem enough for the project. 2010-12-15 07:25 did I only send you the plastic type, or also metal? 2010-12-15 07:25 next time I send you metal as well 2010-12-15 07:25 plastic type costs 3 US cents 2010-12-15 07:25 :-) 2010-12-15 07:25 metal ca. 15 US cents 2010-12-15 07:26 one thing we have to find out is how to make the bottom side sit tight on the pcb 2010-12-15 07:26 so that no light gets in from the bottom 2010-12-15 07:26 not sure, I know nothing about these things... 2010-12-15 07:32 I received 3 plastic type holders. 2010-12-15 07:33 seem designed to be fixed with screws. 2010-12-15 07:35 like in the surveyor camera: http://www.surveyor.com/images/camera_hand.jpg 2010-12-15 07:36 yes screws 2010-12-15 07:36 but the gap between the lense holder and the pcb - how can it be guaranteed to be completely shut? 2010-12-15 07:36 let's say you are standing in super bright sunlight outside... 2010-12-15 07:37 is the force from the screws pressing the thin (0.5mm?) plastic wall against the pcb silkscreen enough? 2010-12-15 07:37 I somehow doubt that 2010-12-15 07:37 I have seen some pictures where it seemed that a little black rubber piece was between the lense holder and PCB 2010-12-15 07:37 Adam has a friend who worked on cameras before, so maybe we get some advice from there. we try everywhere :-) 2010-12-15 07:40 andres-calderon: see here http://peauproductions.com/store/images/item_pictures/IMG_1760.JPG 2010-12-15 07:40 it's sitting on something 2010-12-15 07:40 since that makes the connector higher, I would think it also affects the optics of the lense, maybe only slightly? don't know... 2010-12-15 07:41 we don't have that little thing (rubber?) it sits on yet, sometimes those small details can be harder to get than expected... 2010-12-15 07:41 wpwrak: http://www.milkymist.org/flickernoise.html "Software stack": you'll be surprised how many components I have re-used :) 2010-12-15 07:42 GNU/Linux/X11 isn't the only alternative 2010-12-15 07:42 (and not even the best in many cases, I'd even say) 2010-12-15 07:47 wolfspraul: I hope not need rubber between holder and PCB.  Maybe the fact of the sensor is higher will be enough. 2010-12-15 07:48 andres-calderon: I doubt that. why no rubber? 2010-12-15 07:49 best is to talk to someone who has already made cameras before... 2010-12-15 07:49 we need to understand the pros and cons of it. same for metal vs. plastic holder. 2010-12-15 07:50 wolfspraul: for avoid a bit more complicated production process. 2010-12-15 07:50 ah 2010-12-15 07:51 that's the wrong order, first we need to understand the pros and cons for camera quality. 2010-12-15 07:51 in parallel I will already start sourcing this, just in case because it will only cost pennies anyway 2010-12-15 07:52 adding that little spacer is no concern for 'production process' when only making a handful of boards 2010-12-15 07:52 even when making hundreds or thousands 2010-12-15 07:52 for now we should mostly worry about quality and functionality 2010-12-15 07:53 for example - the spacer means that the lense sits higher. To which degree does that affect lense 'performance'? 2010-12-15 07:53 maybe it's negligible, maybe not. don't know. 2010-12-15 07:53 unlike Andrey I think none of use can do some math to calculate the effect :-) 2010-12-15 07:57 wolfspraul: another design constrain to evaluate...   how to connect the sensor board: 1. block connector (like in the Surveyor) or 2. flat flexible cable (like in the elphel cam) 2010-12-15 07:58 I would make it a daughterboard using the expansion header we already have on Xue 2010-12-15 07:59 probably that daughterboard sitting flat on top of Xue, back towards where the fpga is (basically where the current sensor is just a little higher) 2010-12-15 07:59 then point the lense upwards as right now 2010-12-15 07:59 those things are easily changed I guess. I would just start with the current expansion header. 2010-12-15 08:09 andres-calderon: can the fpc end directly into the expansion header? 2010-12-15 08:10 it's quite a bulky connector, for a high density fpc I'm not sure how easy it is. normally they go into those flat connectors. 2010-12-15 08:10 wolfspraul: i guess.. 2010-12-15 08:13 we can use the Ben flat connectors. 2010-12-15 08:13 have enough lines 2010-12-15 08:14 there is no need to use the Ben connectors only because I may have a few of them in stock 2010-12-15 08:14 we can focus on the connectors that are best for Xue 2010-12-15 08:22 good news (congrats!)  http://lekernel.net/blog/?p=1314 2010-12-15 08:23 yes :-) 2010-12-15 08:23 excellent work from Sebastien (really) 2010-12-15 08:23 we just screwed it together... 2010-12-15 08:34 :) thanks 2010-12-15 09:42 lekernel: congrants lekernel btw can you also advice Tuxbrain will have some too ? :P 2010-12-15 09:43 sure, when you have them i'll put a link to tuxbrain 2010-12-15 09:43 thanks :) 2010-12-15 09:44 andres-calderon: (PBAT/ADIN0) i don't think this is part of the control loop 2010-12-15 09:53 lekernel: nice demos ! too bad there's no sound. 2010-12-15 09:55 andres-calderon: (connector) another thing to consider is how the boards connect mechanically. e.g., you may want a hole for a spacer in each corner of the sensor board, and matching holes on the main pcb. 2010-12-15 09:55 well those video suck, and don't even reflect the current state of the software 2010-12-15 09:56 I lack time and motivation to re-shoot some 2010-12-15 09:56 but it's encouraging you find them nice already :) 2010-12-15 09:57 wpwrak: i agree, but its a nice feature can stimate  the battery level. 2010-12-15 09:57 lekernel: hehe ;) for sound, dunno if you also make music. there's a cute litte device made my Koss called the Kaossilater that's quite handy for producing nice-sounding loops, even for the musically challenged (like me ;-) 2010-12-15 09:57 oh, well 2010-12-15 09:58 lekernel: of course, i feel rather embarrased when a friend who does make music gets to play with it and produces something that sounds great in just a few minutes 2010-12-15 09:58 mid January I should have a milkymist workshop + party in a Berlin kind-of club/artist space 2010-12-15 09:58 I should have proper music there, and a nice setting 2010-12-15 09:58 lekernel: some "quick hacks" on the music side would help to have stuff you can publish without copyright issues 2010-12-15 09:59 ah yes, that ought to be great 2010-12-15 10:01 I should also pull of the video input there 2010-12-15 10:01 andres-calderon: adc are somewhat unreliable for Li batteries, because of their discharge profile. but yes, it's better than nothing. 2010-12-15 10:01 I got myself a decent camera, and many of the visikord effects you've seen on youtube work on milkymist now 2010-12-15 10:02 excellent ! now all you need is a few pretty girls ;-) 2010-12-15 11:14 wpwrak: What do you think about this chip? http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq24030.pdf 2010-12-15 11:14 wpwrak: one LiPo cell, dual input, thermal regulation, may be too expensive. 2010-12-15 11:20 wpwrak: this is the NANO charger: http://www.seawardinc.com.cn/Products_list.asp?id=198&action=new&language=zh-cn 2010-12-15 11:22 (bq2403x) let's see ... 2010-12-15 11:26 looks quite good. the chip takes care of a lot of little issues. pity that the LDO is extremely weak, only 20 mA 2010-12-15 11:29 (bq) and it also passes the digi-key test ;-) 2010-12-15 11:34 (bq price) not too bad. it doesn't need external FETs, takes care of USB current limiting, and even separates battery from output. do you need adapter and USB power ? 2010-12-15 11:35 hmm 2010-12-15 11:35 Is not that SIE current missing feature? 2010-12-15 11:35 (do you need adapter and USB power ?) 2010-12-15 11:36 maybe, carlos' description wasn't quite clear 2010-12-15 11:37 I wonder why SIE dint use same power schema from nanonote, i guess power/current limits may be? 2010-12-15 11:39 no idea. also the nanonote's charger isn't too great. doens't separate the current paths. 2010-12-15 11:39 ah i see 2010-12-15 11:39 andres-calderon: (NANO charger) oh, now i saw that you wrote NANO, not NAND ! i was already wondering ;-)) 2010-12-15 11:45 wpwrak: Eso me pasa por escribir como Toro Sentado :) 2010-12-15 11:46 ;-))) 2010-12-15 11:47 if you want a cheaper chip, mcirochip MCP73837/8 may be an option. doesn't separate battery and system current, but also handled USB. 2010-12-15 11:47 http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/22071a.pdf 2010-12-15 11:49 wpwrak: MCP73837/8 may be a better choice than the exotic chinise Nano Ben charger IC. 2010-12-15 11:50 oh, definitely. the one in the nano is overly simplistic. 2010-12-15 11:50 you can tell by the external FETs ;-) 2010-12-15 11:51 ah, what's the projected current consumption of Xue ? 2010-12-15 11:53 here's another one, similar to the MCP73837. this time from National Semi, not microchip: 2010-12-15 11:53 http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM3658.pdf 2010-12-15 11:55 wpwrak: Difficult question when it related to FPGAs (between  5 and 10 Watts) 2010-12-15 11:56 WOW ! 1-2 A at 5 V. crazy. 2010-12-15 11:56 okay, let's look for the high-current chips then ... 2010-12-15 11:57 http://focus.ti.com/analog/docs/refdesignovw.tsp?familyId=64&contentType=2&genContentId=65339 2010-12-15 11:57 (5 and 10 Watts) why so much? 2010-12-15 11:59 kristianpaul: please see the TI power range for the XC6SLX45 FPGA 2010-12-15 11:59 ok 2010-12-15 11:59 sorry i'm not aware of that values, but i agree with wpwrak it is kind of crazy 2010-12-15 12:00 wpwrak: i like the LM3658 option. 2010-12-15 12:00 LM3658 only supplies 1 A :-( 2010-12-15 12:01 Power Requirements  this is one of the dark sides of FPGAs 2010-12-15 12:02 is current consumption also so high in real life ? or are these just extreme value, e.g., if all cells are switching at the maximum clock speed ? 2010-12-15 12:03 I have no real numbers ... estimate the consumption of the FPGA is a very difficult task 2010-12-15 12:04 Sébastien should have this clear.. 2010-12-15 12:05 please see: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM 2010-12-15 12:06 3-A, 3.3/5-V Input Adjustable Switching Regulator with Auto-Track Sequencing 2010-12-15 12:06 3A 2010-12-15 12:06 !! 2010-12-15 12:07 quietly buries usb power 2010-12-15 12:07 FPGA is not the only thing on 2.5V 2010-12-15 12:09 lekernel: what real power consumptions have you measured on MM1 ? assuming no overly drainy peripherals 2010-12-15 12:09 andres-calderon: there's that USB host. that could also suck 0.5 A if you let it 2010-12-15 12:10 with current bitstream/software the complete board draws less than 5W 2010-12-15 12:12 okay .. 1 A@5 V then ... 2010-12-15 12:13 lekernel: does it ever drop below, say, 2 W, while doing something useful (e.g., vi ;-) ? e.g., would it even make sense to consider a scenario with only USB power ? (for operation. may still make sense for charging and duty cycle < 100%) 2010-12-15 12:14 I don't know 2010-12-15 12:14 I haven't tried to optimize power at all, power doesn't matter for this design 2010-12-15 12:14 We can forget  operation based on single USB port (dual port neither) 2010-12-15 12:22 wpwrak: For these power optimization of FPGA cores is that I had to put the AVR in the current design (seemed like a good idea  use the power metering  at different level). 2010-12-15 12:25 lekernel: sure, MM1 has other things to do :) 2010-12-15 15:46 andres-calderon: thinking about the battery ... what characteristics do you have in mind ? e.g., how long should xue be aboe to run continuously on battery alone ? 2010-12-15 15:58 <[Jc]> Hi , i try to reflash the nanote whith the reflash_ben.sh but i have nothing after "try fetching .ubi.bz2 rootfs.... 2010-12-15 15:58 <[Jc]> can you help me ? 2010-12-15 16:06 <[Jc]> strange, the flash is ok but very slow 2010-12-15 16:31 [Jc]: are you flahing now? 2010-12-15 16:32 Well that take some time, yes flash is kinf slow 2010-12-15 16:32 kind* 2010-12-15 16:59 I may think is faster if is done from uSD-like memories 2010-12-15 17:10 damn taxes (wikireader) 2010-12-15 18:46 [commit] David Kühling: tune Emacs' RAM usage (down to approx 10MB now).  Hide menu bar, http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ccd5818 2010-12-15 18:49 [commit] David Kühling: updated Emacs loadup.el http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5c645d1 2010-12-15 20:43 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/gerber.c (gerber_read): store coordinates as floats after conversion http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/9959224 2010-12-15 20:43 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cngt: tool change utility for MDX15/20 (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/154be2b 2010-12-15 20:43 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cngt: some small fixes http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/62152e2 2010-12-15 20:58 hey just a reminder... 2010-12-15 20:59 we need to purge 'SD' (as in Secure Digital) everywhere 2010-12-15 20:59 I see 'microSD' popping up all over the place 2010-12-15 20:59 bad 2010-12-15 20:59 what shall we call it ? 2010-12-15 21:00 flash memory card? 2010-12-15 21:00 we should also stay away from 'SDIO' 2010-12-15 21:00 FMC - too general 2010-12-15 21:00 afaik the most we can go is microSD-like 2010-12-15 21:01 maybe micro5D ? ;-) 2010-12-15 21:01 although that is suspicious lawyer-speak :-) 2010-12-15 21:01 hah 2010-12-15 21:01 I like micro5D 2010-12-15 21:01 you are almost Chinese now, Werner... 2010-12-15 21:01 haha ;-) 2010-12-15 21:01 but seriously, the SD needs to go 2010-12-15 21:01 for our own good, and the good of copyleft hardware and people who want to manufacture and sell devices 2010-12-15 21:01 it's a trademark, we have no rights to it 2010-12-15 21:01 we need to name the thing somehow. so, what shall it be ? 2010-12-15 21:02 MicroFlash ? :) 2010-12-15 21:02 uSD = SmallMicroFlash (SMF), with apologies to "Prince" :) 2010-12-15 21:03 hmm 2010-12-15 21:03 as usual there are patents, copyright, trademark law 2010-12-15 21:03 SDIO -> MFIO 2010-12-15 21:03 copyright we should be OK, because we use the Linux kernel and if there is any problem then others have dealt with it before 2010-12-15 21:03 I think there was legal action over this years ago 2010-12-15 21:04 patents are always nasty, but I doubt the SD-3C would directly use them, or whether we would actually infringe on any patent 2010-12-15 21:04 that leaves the trademark 2010-12-15 21:05 i wonder what the status of the SD-card physical shape is 2010-12-15 21:05 so, how to avoid the trademark ? 5D ? invent some name ? explain each time with a long sentence ? 2010-12-15 21:05 MFIO? 2010-12-15 21:06 well we need to start, I feel we don't pay attention to this and it will get nasty later 2010-12-15 21:06 uSD-like is ok? 2010-12-15 21:06 (me included) 2010-12-15 21:06 the -like thing is a legal safeguard, afaik 2010-12-15 21:07 phew 2010-12-15 21:07 I would prefer to only use it on the side though, to explain what the 'flash memory card' is 2010-12-15 21:07 like flash memory card (*) 2010-12-15 21:07 and then (*) micro-SD like flash card 2010-12-15 21:07 somewhere far away :-) 2010-12-15 21:08 how do we reference it contexts that are not "official documents" ? irc, mailing list, etc. 2010-12-15 21:08 s/it/it in/ 2010-12-15 21:08 as i understand micro is okay but not the "ese de", right? 2010-12-15 21:08 the channel could use an editbot :) 2010-12-15 21:08 hehe 2010-12-15 21:08 the SD is the core trademark, I think 2010-12-15 21:08 Secure Digital 2010-12-15 21:08 *SD and SD* 2010-12-15 21:08 uEseDe ;-) 2010-12-15 21:08 jeje 2010-12-15 21:08 LibreDigital ;-) 2010-12-15 21:09 well, my first concern is that the hardware we are making is clean 2010-12-15 21:09 because it should be the basis for 'copylefting' by others, right? 2010-12-15 21:09 I mean I can pay 4000 USD 2010-12-15 21:09 you should :) 2010-12-15 21:09 should not*** 2010-12-15 21:09 or we write it like we spell it. ED ;-) 2010-12-15 21:09 but I just create a 4000 USD copy barrier, at least for people who want to be legal 2010-12-15 21:09 uED, EDIO, etc. 2010-12-15 21:09 plus 1000-2000 / year I think 2010-12-15 21:09 i like that 2010-12-15 21:10 or the same with LD. uLD, LDIO, etc. 2010-12-15 21:10 bot will be funny 2010-12-15 21:10 so I want to increase the copyleftedness by making hardware that is as least likely to step onto the SD trademarks, copyrights, patents, as possible 2010-12-15 21:10 s/n/N pops every where 2010-12-15 21:10 I mean right now we have 'microSD' right in the tooling of the Ben :-) 2010-12-15 21:10 can't get any worse 2010-12-15 21:11 that all needs to go 2010-12-15 21:11 Libre Small Digital, LSD :) 2010-12-15 21:11 libre flash? 2010-12-15 21:11 hehe 2010-12-15 21:11 dont abouse libre word i think, flash is not libre at all (copyleft hw way) 2010-12-15 21:11 also for Milkymist One microSD is popping up everywhere 2010-12-15 21:11 ok fair enough 2010-12-15 21:11 hmm true 2010-12-15 21:11 Sebastien proposed flash memory card 2010-12-15 21:11 let them try to argue that LSD is likely to be mistaken for SD in court ;-) 2010-12-15 21:12 I like it 2010-12-15 21:12 I would write it out each time. 2010-12-15 21:12 no FMC 2010-12-15 21:12 we can write flash memory card (*) 2010-12-15 21:12 i prefer flash memory card, not resumed 2010-12-15 21:12 and then (*) microSD-like flash memory card 2010-12-15 21:12 hell ;) 2010-12-15 21:12 wolfspraul: you're ignoring day to day communication. nobody will write a long name all the time 2010-12-15 21:13 or leave out the (*) alltogether 2010-12-15 21:13 actually I don't think it's that important 2010-12-15 21:13 there are way too many of these cards 2010-12-15 21:13 (for regular people) 2010-12-15 21:14 rs-mmc, miniSD, microSD, full size, etc. 2010-12-15 21:14 anyway, I just wanted to post a reminder 2010-12-15 21:14 'SD' is a trademark, using it devalues our copyleft stuff 2010-12-15 21:14 QIC - Qi Card :) 2010-12-15 21:14 it creates problems 2010-12-15 21:14 sooner or later 2010-12-15 21:15 the SD people will not release their trademark into the public domain, etc. 2010-12-15 21:15 wolfspraul: yes, you've repeated that SD is a problem about 50 times by now. i still get it ;-) 2010-12-15 21:15 we cannot assume those things to happen 2010-12-15 21:15 this will go on... SD to the moon! :-) 2010-12-15 21:15 wpwrak: for the archives :-) 2010-12-15 21:15 wolfspraul: but you're dodging the question of a practical alternative :) 2010-12-15 21:15 flash memory card 2010-12-15 21:15 which you already said you don't like... 2010-12-15 21:16 external memory 2010-12-15 21:16 memory 2010-12-15 21:16 sure, in marketing material and such, you can write Flash Memory Card (*) Mycro-SD-alike 2010-12-15 21:16 the first step is raising awareness that SD is a trademark we haven't licensed and shouldn't use 2010-12-15 21:16 that alone is not enough 2010-12-15 21:16 we still need to call it something 2010-12-15 21:16 and we don't want people to fall back to "Flash" or "Card" 2010-12-15 21:17 well there are several use cases. microSD cards (as in the mechanical size), SDIO protocol, others? 2010-12-15 21:17 which is what will happen if you offer only an unwieldy name 2010-12-15 21:17 so 1) SD is bad. avoid it. agreed. 2010-12-15 21:17 I do something practical, I start ripping out *SD* when I see it :-) 2010-12-15 21:18 2) official documents, press statements, case engraving, whatever, can use something nice and complicated. your choice. fine with that. 2010-12-15 21:18 3) what do we use for other communication ? 2010-12-15 21:18 so, remove the hardware ? 2010-12-15 21:19 then we don't need to name it :) 2010-12-15 21:19 /nick Salomon 2010-12-15 21:20 Small Removable Card ? SRC ? 2010-12-15 21:20 are you trying to find a name for the microSD mechanical shape? 2010-12-15 21:21 the connector/height? (to the outside we are going pretty wild anyway... :-)) 2010-12-15 21:21 for shape, the item itself, the connectors, etc. 2010-12-15 21:21 protocol, too. 2010-12-15 21:21 if your new names are not clear in meaning, people will fall back to the old ones similar to how you think they will do it with my 'flash memory card' 2010-12-15 21:22 well, we can probably talk about the SDIO protocol and so on and implicitly refer to out slot 2010-12-15 21:24 u5D then ;-) it's not our fault that people mistype the acronym of ultrasmall 5 dimensions all the time :)  (5D: 1) mechanical, 2) industry standard memory, 3) industry standard I/O, 4) GPIOs, 5) power) 2010-12-15 21:24 wow 2010-12-15 21:24 or scrap mechanical and make it 1) clock 2010-12-15 21:25 hmm 2010-12-15 21:25 if I compare with the headset connectors, we use 2.5mm, 3.5mm 2010-12-15 21:26 maybe we say 2-pin, 3-pin, TRS, TRRS 2010-12-15 21:26 5D FAQ: Q: Is u5D the same as uSD. A: No. u5D is a device and interface format specified [...bla...]. The SD Association has until date not sought certification of their product as u5D compatible. 2010-12-15 21:26 yes but if we do this the u5D thing will be seriously confusing 2010-12-15 21:27 8card :) 2010-12-15 21:28 SPI Card 2010-12-15 21:28 nah 2010-12-15 21:29 8x8 flash memory card? 2010-12-15 21:29 ED - External Device. uED, EDIO, ... :) 2010-12-15 21:29 what 2010-12-15 21:29 8 pin, 8 mm (not exactly, but for the sake of 8x8) 2010-12-15 21:29 ah :) 2010-12-15 21:29 11 x 15 mm :) 2010-12-15 21:29 I am comparing with some other connectors 2010-12-15 21:29 normally people 'describe' them 2010-12-15 21:30 card165 2010-12-15 21:30 like the 2.5mm headset thing 2010-12-15 21:30 (11*15 = 165) 2010-12-15 21:30 then of course often there is a trademark involved 2010-12-15 21:30 MIDI, DMX 2010-12-15 21:30 those too? 2010-12-15 21:30 MIDI too ? shit 2010-12-15 21:30 don't know 2010-12-15 21:30 relax guys 2010-12-15 21:30 :-) 2010-12-15 21:30 hey Werner, let's make a fped view of the connector 2010-12-15 21:31 then the fped text is the name of the connector 2010-12-15 21:31 fped-xxxxxx 2010-12-15 21:31 (the xxx is the necessary source) 2010-12-15 21:32 maybe I try 8x8 fmc for a while 2010-12-15 21:32 it's not more confusing the u5D 2010-12-15 21:33 than 2010-12-15 21:33 (fped) http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/modules/usd-card.fpd 2010-12-15 21:34 that's the card/contact area shape 2010-12-15 21:34 of course it says 'SD' in there :-) 2010-12-15 21:34 you trademark infringer! 2010-12-15 21:34 of course :) 2010-12-15 21:34 run ! 2010-12-15 21:34 steal other peoples work 2010-12-15 21:35 well, i've heard guns are cheap around here. so let the trademark/patent holder come ;-) 2010-12-15 21:35 I'm looking at a full-size SD card right now and I notice that the right-most pin (looking from the bottom) seems to be split into 2? 2010-12-15 21:35 so that makes it 9 pins 2010-12-15 21:36 it looks like this is some backward-compatibility thing, because the split is done in such a way that it would also fit a connector that had only 8 pins on the other side 2010-12-15 21:37 i think it's for card insertion detection 2010-12-15 21:37 maybe we should move towards mechanical measurements in general? 2010-12-15 21:37 as an idea... (don't poke holes into it right away, Werner...) 2010-12-15 21:37 mechanical and math are patent and trademark free 2010-12-15 21:38 we are still free to count 2010-12-15 21:38 and measure 2010-12-15 21:38 or just number them ? card #1 :) 2010-12-15 21:38 (math) hmm. mp3 algorithm ? :) 2010-12-15 21:39 for example the trs trrs are called like that as 'tip ring sleeve' 2010-12-15 21:39 I like that 2010-12-15 21:39 no way this will ever be claimed by anybody 2010-12-15 21:39 trrs = tip ring ring sleeve 2010-12-15 21:39 just describe the looks/shape of the connector 2010-12-15 21:40 wpwrak: no not the algorithm is patented, but the implementation :-) still a difference... 2010-12-15 21:40 guys until I hear protests, I will try 8x8 fmc 2010-12-15 21:40 maybe someone can find something nice and descriptive along the lines of trs? 2010-12-15 21:41 just use plain language, plain words, measurements/counts, etc. 2010-12-15 21:41 8x8 does not reflect real dimensions 2010-12-15 21:41 8 pins, 8 millimeters 2010-12-15 21:41 165 ? for the 165 square-millimeters a rectangular bounding box would cover ? 2010-12-15 21:41 where are the 8 millimeters ? 2010-12-15 21:42 roughly :-) 2010-12-15 21:42 because 8x8 is easy to remember 2010-12-15 21:42 the card is 11x15 mm 2010-12-15 21:42 the connector at the top is narrower 2010-12-15 21:42 sure. but then it's no longer a physical measurement 2010-12-15 21:42 the pins are pretty much exactly 8mm wide 2010-12-15 21:43 although the pitch is not exactly 1mm 2010-12-15 21:43 9.6 mm 2010-12-15 21:43 pitch is 1.1 mm 2010-12-15 21:43 just look at the fped file. it's all in there :) 2010-12-15 21:43 that's for the whole front, including left and right margin 2010-12-15 21:43 (with fped - so you can see the dimensions) 2010-12-15 21:44 I'm not saying 8x8 fmc is perfect 2010-12-15 21:44 I'm also fine with 8x10, it's equally wrong/confusing I think 2010-12-15 21:44 but my idea was something measured, or described 2010-12-15 21:44 like trs 2010-12-15 21:44 not a play like u5D 2010-12-15 21:44 irony or humor doesn't work in such cases 2010-12-15 21:45 someone else will have the last laugh 2010-12-15 21:45 8x10 is much better. 9.6 rounded :) 2010-12-15 21:45 8x10 fmc 2010-12-15 21:45 just "card" ? 2010-12-15 21:45 well the 'x' makes it look like a 2D measurement 2010-12-15 21:45 but one is number of pins, the other is mm 2010-12-15 21:45 8p10mm, argh 2010-12-15 21:45 maybe 8/10 or 8:10 2010-12-15 21:46 I like the : better 2010-12-15 21:46 8:10 flash card 2010-12-15 21:46 card 2010-12-15 21:46 doesn't have to be flash 2010-12-15 21:46 hmm 2010-12-15 21:46 true 2010-12-15 21:46 4bit card 2010-12-15 21:46 is Flash trademarked ? :) 2010-12-15 21:46 hege 2010-12-15 21:46 I don't think so 2010-12-15 21:46 he* 2010-12-15 21:46 F-card :) 2010-12-15 21:46 that's suspicious 2010-12-15 21:46 especially when it doens't work :) 2010-12-15 21:47 8:10 card 2010-12-15 21:47 maybe 8:10 card holder 2010-12-15 21:47 yes I think that's nice 2010-12-15 21:47 I can live with that 2010-12-15 21:47 now, the protocol ? we have SD and SDIO to rename. 2010-12-15 21:48 8:10 is pretty cool, maybe we can find something better even so it still works when the next nanoSD is introduced... 2010-12-15 21:48 it would then be 8:6 or such 2010-12-15 21:48 but number of pins is quite specific, and rounded mm at the front too 2010-12-15 21:48 unless they introduce a round one 2010-12-15 21:48 specific is good in this case 2010-12-15 21:49 after all, this should be an alias for uSD 2010-12-15 21:49 full-siz SD would be 9:24 2010-12-15 21:49 ok 2010-12-15 21:49 man I hope Sebastien doesn't kill us over this 2010-12-15 21:49 SD and SDIO 2010-12-15 21:49 when do we use this? 2010-12-15 21:50 miniSD something like 11:19 2010-12-15 21:50 I'm not using it, I think 2010-12-15 21:50 are the Linux kernel sourcing talking about SDIO actually? 2010-12-15 21:50 sources 2010-12-15 21:50 when talking about the protocol 2010-12-15 21:50 of course they do 2010-12-15 21:51 perhaps we can use SD/SDIO when talking about the protocol. after all, we're not identifying the card per se 2010-12-15 21:51 trade mark ! 2010-12-15 21:51 no matter card is there i guess 2010-12-15 21:51 also I don't think this will show up anywhere in or on the product, or marketing 2010-12-15 21:51 ah ok 2010-12-15 21:52 it should appear on some occasions in official documentation, to clarify that the interface is IO-capable 2010-12-15 21:53 but maybe it's possible to treat this separate from technical discussion 2010-12-15 21:54 when I think about Milkymist One, I cannot imagine SD or SDIO to show up anywhere 2010-12-15 21:54 why should it? 2010-12-15 21:54 if the specs list the connector as '8:10 card holder' then that's it 2010-12-15 21:54 of course nobody will know what a 8:10 card holder is 2010-12-15 21:55 so we may need a (*) microSD-like somewhere 2010-12-15 21:55 maybe even (*) 8 pins : 10 mm connector, microSD-like 2010-12-15 21:55 :-) 2010-12-15 21:56 MM1: dunno. depends on the intended role for the 8:10 card 2010-12-15 21:56 but think of a general-purpose device like the ben. there you want to know whether it can talk to SDIO peripherals 2010-12-15 21:56 on m1, it cannot find nice cards like ben-wpan, because it's in the middle of the board and no space, and lying flat on the pcb as well 2010-12-15 21:57 of course, you can write something like "for memory and I/O cards" 2010-12-15 21:57 yes 2010-12-15 21:57 for this to have any practical effect, you would have to list the tested and supported cards anyway 2010-12-15 21:57 one by one, with brand, model, etc. 2010-12-15 21:57 sure. it's a first overview. what you print on the box. 2010-12-15 21:58 (I'm talking about 'practical effect' for a normal end user) 2010-12-15 21:58 maybe you already know whether card X is linux-friendly or not 2010-12-15 21:58 is MMC trademarktoo? 2010-12-15 21:58 there is no way someone will buy 2 products because both say 'SDIO' and he thinks they should work together 2010-12-15 21:58 i wouldn't be so sure ;-) 2010-12-15 21:58 no way 2010-12-15 21:58 maybe if the sales rep says they will work 2010-12-15 21:59 but definitely not based on seeing the same trademark 2010-12-15 21:59 kristianpaul: I think mmc, if even a trademark, is not owned/managed by the SD-3C 2010-12-15 22:00 sometimes you have to rely on guesses. you go to the shop with a list of possible devices. they have none of these but something else. do you want to return home and do more research or buy the damn thing for USD 10 and hope for the best ? 2010-12-15 22:01 just looking at uspto.gov 2010-12-15 22:01 so many mmc 2010-12-15 22:01 one is a 'foldable pet ramp' 2010-12-15 22:01 there's also quite a lot of people who simply don't know how to find out beforehand about such problems. to them, it may just be technology that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. at some point in time, you may also reach this part of the market ;-) 2010-12-15 22:02 mmc mobile... 2010-12-15 22:02 i mean, even technically competent people would, for example, have a hard time buying a home theatre where all the elements work properly for HD with all the copy-protection and such :) 2010-12-15 22:02 registered by the multimedia card association, but now owned by jedec solid state technology association 2010-12-15 22:07 got disconnected, did it get through? 2010-12-15 22:07 mmc -> jedec, aye 2010-12-15 22:08 ok I just added that we also need to look at trademarks case by case 2010-12-15 22:08 if one is licensed in terms that are acceptable, then using it may be better for everybody 2010-12-15 22:08 like Linux 2010-12-15 22:08 so I don't know about MMC 2010-12-15 22:08 but I am pretty sure about *SD* 2010-12-15 22:08 that one needs to go, or sooner or later everybody who manufactures 'SD host devices' will have to stay away from large markets like the US, or pay 4000 USD + 2000 USD/yr 2010-12-15 22:09 I don't know about MIDI, DMX, and many others 2010-12-15 22:09 case by case, our resources are limited and opportunity costs are high... 2010-12-15 22:09 so we got a solution for now? 2010-12-15 22:09 the card is: 8:10 card 2010-12-15 22:09 the protocol is: memory and I/O 2010-12-15 22:10 considering how profitable the drug business is, perhaps making the device illegal in the US wouldn't be such a bad idea ;-) 2010-12-15 22:11 don't you think that 8:10 flash card is better? 2010-12-15 22:11 hmm, maybe not 2010-12-15 22:11 it's just a desperate attempt to ring a bell :-) 2010-12-15 22:12 (protocol) i'd rename only in "marketing" communication. for descriptive use in technical communication, we ought to be safe. 2010-12-15 22:13 e.g., "implement the SDIO protocol". or "the SDIO protocol [says this or that]" 2010-12-15 22:13 should be OK, and this shouldn't make it through to the product or marketing material anyway 2010-12-15 22:14 yup 2010-12-15 22:14 phew 2010-12-15 22:14 done 2010-12-15 22:14 thanks!!! 2010-12-15 22:15 hmm ......... they also use the x:y format for bible references ... googling it, there's a nice one: http://bible.cc/luke/8-10.htm 2010-12-15 22:16 alludes to the obscurity we're after ;-) 2010-12-15 22:16 kristianpaul: for trademarks, you can normally use a quick search at uspto.gov 2010-12-15 22:16 in technology, the US is basically the gold standard, or at least it is what we are talking about here 2010-12-15 22:16 wolfspra1l: looking now, good to know :) 2010-12-15 22:17 if someone registers a trademark in Kazachstan, and rips off some importers, ok that's a separate issue 2010-12-15 22:17 it's a big world 2010-12-15 22:17 ("gold" standard) high time for china to take over :) 2010-12-15 22:17 well yeah that will be a big mess 2010-12-15 22:17 it's probably already happening 2010-12-15 22:17 kristianpaul: also, for a trademark to be enforced, it doesn't necessarily need to be registered 2010-12-15 22:17 (take over) dont do it already? 2010-12-15 22:17 sometimes you see this (tm) and (r) 2010-12-15 22:18 yes 2010-12-15 22:18 (tm) is a unregistered trademark 2010-12-15 22:18 now all we need is to make patent production and trafficking a capital offense and the world will be a much better place :) 2010-12-15 22:18 in the end any company can bring forward a trademark infringement claim, at any time, and for any reason 2010-12-15 22:18 the question is whether it can stand in court 2010-12-15 22:18 so it's not as easy as looking in uspto.gov and then you know what's going on 2010-12-15 22:19 and some big corps are known to trample over this system anyway 2010-12-15 22:19 they just don't care 2010-12-15 22:19 so even if you have a trademark registered for x years, if you are in the way they will attack you 2010-12-15 22:19 and you better give in to their demands, whatever it is :-) 2010-12-15 22:19 so fair ;^) 2010-12-15 22:20 so similar to patents, I approach this in a case by case style 2010-12-15 22:20 watch out for aggressive people, stay away from them 2010-12-15 22:20 don't pay a ransom, because then others will have to pay too in the future 2010-12-15 22:21 I will probably stop registering trademarks, and use unregistered instead 2010-12-15 22:21 just (tm) 2010-12-15 22:21 like NanoNote, Milkymist 2010-12-15 22:22 the registration has questionable value anyway, in my practical experience 2010-12-15 22:22 you are just feeding lawyers, parasites 2010-12-15 22:22 in the end they come trample over you anyway, so you better hold fire and still have a few bucks when they come attack :-) 2010-12-15 22:27 wpwrak: hey wanna hear a China story? 2010-12-15 22:28 always :) 2010-12-15 22:28 no rumors, all first hand 2010-12-15 22:28 I walked around many offices of IC design firms in China, and always wondered why I never saw IC design software running on any computer screen... 2010-12-15 22:29 (I'm quite observing looking at what is running on screens when I walk around new offices) 2010-12-15 22:29 finally I found the answer :-) 2010-12-15 22:29 they don't have licenses ? 2010-12-15 22:29 the Chinese government has setup special small companies to buy 1 license of expensive US software, install it all properly etc. 2010-12-15 22:29 oh no 2010-12-15 22:29 much smarter 2010-12-15 22:29 and only run the stuff when there are no visitors 2010-12-15 22:29 and then they use whatever they can to 'share' this 2010-12-15 22:29 ;-) 2010-12-15 22:29 people can go 'visit' there 2010-12-15 22:29 vpn 2010-12-15 22:29 vnc 2010-12-15 22:29 everything 2010-12-15 22:30 *grin* 2010-12-15 22:30 finally a government that truly helps its people, no? 2010-12-15 22:30 sharing  is good ! :) 2010-12-15 22:30 they call this 'IC center' etc. 2010-12-15 22:30 a center it is, indeed :-) 2010-12-15 22:30 ;-)) 2010-12-15 22:30 bus is it time shared? 2010-12-15 22:30 who knows, whatever works 2010-12-15 22:31 then there must also be a lot of leakage between companies - someone forgetting files, etc. ;-) 2010-12-15 22:31 all very good, of course. more sharing :) 2010-12-15 22:31 probably, but it's a lot of copy/paste anyway 2010-12-15 22:31 but this is a true story, organized by the Chinese government 2010-12-15 22:31 .cn - copy nation :) 2010-12-15 22:31 nice service 2010-12-15 22:31 indeed 2010-12-15 22:31 excellent service :) 2010-12-15 22:32 of course, not so good from the perspective of furthering freedom. they should give the money they save to people who develop free alternatives :) 2010-12-15 22:33 watch out they have their own definition of freedom 2010-12-15 22:33 I always want to ask that, how is "free alternives" fit to china rules? 2010-12-15 22:33 ah that explain better ( own definition of freedom) 2010-12-15 22:33 sure not at all 2010-12-15 22:33 if anything 'free' means under 100% CHinese govt control 2010-12-15 22:34 if only 99% control, then not entirely free yet 2010-12-15 22:34 but yes, I'm sure they work on those 'free alternatives' elsewhere 2010-12-15 22:34 Are you aware of Lemote company and chinese gov? 2010-12-15 22:35 what do you mean with aware? 2010-12-15 22:35 I've heard of Lemote 2010-12-15 22:35 s/aware/what do you know 2010-12-15 22:35 nothing 2010-12-15 22:37 Is Ingenic some how linked/parner with china gov? 2010-12-15 22:37 well i dont know if parner is a right word there 2010-12-15 22:39 China is a dictatorship. every chinese company, everything located on chinese soil is under 100% control of the Chinese government. 2010-12-15 22:39 one phone call is enough :-) 2010-12-15 22:39 i see 2010-12-15 22:39 the CEO of any Chinese company can be called to show up for a 'government conference' within hours 2010-12-15 22:40 and all of them will go 2010-12-15 22:40 That includes Sharism? :) 2010-12-15 22:40 I'm not making this up, this is how it is. 2010-12-15 22:40 I would never ever register a company in mainland China. 2010-12-15 22:40 Tw? 2010-12-15 22:40 Sharism Ltd. is registered in Hong Kong, which still benefits from British traditions. 2010-12-15 22:40 ah ok 2010-12-15 22:40 for the next 20-30 years we should be safe there 2010-12-15 22:41 good :) 2010-12-15 22:41 although they are slowly trying to undermine it 2010-12-15 22:41 I made the mistake of registering some .cn domains, I am giving them up now 2010-12-15 22:41 oh btw, I think it's crazy that Mozilla and others install SSl root certificates controlled by the Chinese government 2010-12-15 22:42 oh 2010-12-15 22:42 that gives them a chance to run nice man-in-the-middle attacks without you ever noticing 2010-12-15 22:42 and you bet they already work on this, have the capability, and use it when appropriate 2010-12-15 22:42 next year will be the year to dont trust SSL root ceriticates 2010-12-15 22:42 100% guaranteed 2010-12-15 22:43 eff.org/observatory 2010-12-15 22:43 seriously, this is serious stuff 2010-12-15 22:43 those root certificates need to be removed asap 2010-12-15 22:43 That root-trust is scary 2010-12-15 22:44 the whole concept is broken 2010-12-15 22:44 wpwrak: yeah but come on. a root certificate from the chinese government, preinstalled in the whole western world. hello??? 2010-12-15 22:44 one phone call 2010-12-15 22:45 when they call, the caller ID is 00000000 2010-12-15 22:45 no name, just when and where to go 2010-12-15 22:46 (0000000) like telemarketing :) 2010-12-15 22:47 kristianpaul: .tw is cool, of course. 2010-12-15 22:50 argg what i was thinking my data bus is just 8 bits :/ 2010-12-15 22:57 kristianpaul: simpler :) 2010-12-15 23:01 kristianpaul: where are you actually stuck ? a good while ago, it looked as if you had pretty much everything in place 2010-12-15 23:01 wpwrak: i'm implementing what we talked yday 2010-12-15 23:01 kristianpaul: are you cooking up some fancy handshake protocol ? 2010-12-15 23:01 not fancy 2010-12-15 23:01 nah 2010-12-15 23:01 as simple as i can make it 2010-12-15 23:01 kristianpaul: should be quite straightforward. particularly if you just make an 8 bit shifter 2010-12-15 23:02 for now just a 8 bit shifter, plus a 4 bit counter in order tow adress a sram arragement (buffer) 2010-12-15 23:02 kristianpaul: 1) extend the old 4 bit to 8 bit. 2) divide SYNC by two and output it 2010-12-15 23:02 kristianpaul: ah, you're adding a buffer. i see. 2010-12-15 23:03 i MUST, is no somethin i wish 2010-12-15 23:03 but SIE desing push me to do it that way 2010-12-15 23:03 how come ? 2010-12-15 23:03 was something i dint realize until i crasshed CPU, (shared bus with other memories) 2010-12-15 23:04 JZ4725 processor has a peripheral in charge of controlling extern memories, this controller allows to handle static, NOR, NAND and SDRAM memories. SIE uses the CS2 signal which belongs to the second pool of static memory and is activated (low active) whenever an address in between 0x1400|0000 to 0x17FF|FFFF is accessed. Next picture shows reading and writing cycles for this processor. 2010-12-15 23:04 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xburst-FPGA_Interface ^ 2010-12-15 23:04 hmm. are you saying that you don't have 9-10 dedicated I/Os between FGPA and CPU ? 2010-12-15 23:05 sadly no :'( 2010-12-15 23:05 really i tought i had 2010-12-15 23:05 i just (as always) ignore some documetation and discover it by trial/error 2010-12-15 23:05 interesting. do you have DMA handshake signals ? 2010-12-15 23:06 i'm not really aware of DMA handshake now, i must read first a bit more of this topic 2010-12-15 23:06 s/of/off 2010-12-15 23:06 may be easier to go directly to DMA if you don't have a nice and simple interface 2010-12-15 23:07 you need a request line. maybe also the acknowledgement line. documentation seems a bit spotty. 2010-12-15 23:07 If i see this get messy (i donk think, just in case) i 'll end wiring the spi-to-parallel module to the SDIO of my ben 2010-12-15 23:07 if the FPGA appears like a memory device, you'd implement your 8 bit register just there and then request one DMA cycle. if this is handled quickly enough, you win :) 2010-12-15 23:08 ;-)) 2010-12-15 23:08 ah 2010-12-15 23:08 well i already have that 2010-12-15 23:08 in any case, DMA is what you want. anything else is still some sort of polling and probably will be messy 2010-12-15 23:08 so i'mm missing DMA 2010-12-15 23:08 let's see what they write about dma ... 2010-12-15 23:09 hmm seems is worth read more about DMA 2010-12-15 23:09 gz4725_ds .. 3.9.3. ah, that helps .. NOT :) 2010-12-15 23:09 in SIE fpga have only I/O to real world afaik :/ 2010-12-15 23:11 maybe you can loop something back :) 2010-12-15 23:11 loop? 2010-12-15 23:12 hey 2010-12-15 23:13 Hi 2010-12-15 23:13 i have a simple but kinda tricky question 2010-12-15 23:14 Drop it :) 2010-12-15 23:16 my old computer had a folder with over 3000 picture i took, its stuck in an endless cycle when trying to boot. i was able to install my old computers internal HD in another one, the problem is that the folder i had made was no longer in the desktop. yet it kept my other backed up cell phone pics in the My Pictures area (i had put that folder there.. is there any way to retrieve the folder i had created on the desktop? 2010-12-15 23:20 *hmm* there's no external DMA ?!? 2010-12-15 23:21 DMA? 2010-12-15 23:22 amazing. seems they really left it out. 2010-12-15 23:23 GWEARI: on the XBurst JZ4740/20 and similar 2010-12-15 23:23 poll poll poll 2010-12-15 23:23 :-) 2010-12-15 23:23 suck suck suck :-( 2010-12-15 23:24 well, you could send stuff over the UART ;-) that's about the only interface that's slave-capable. okay, and USB. 2010-12-15 23:25 i was thinking ignore xburst-shared-bus and wire to SDIO 2010-12-15 23:25 wich is actually IO 2010-12-15 23:25 ahh 2010-12-15 23:25 plan B: maybe the bus is multi-master-capable, so the FPGA could become bus master 2010-12-15 23:26 argg thats is just 2bit, i touch that before 2010-12-15 23:26 tought* 2010-12-15 23:26 bus i dont know, i need dig more on it 2010-12-15 23:26 sdio is 4 bits 2010-12-15 23:27 not in SIE ;-) 2010-12-15 23:27 let me confirm (kicad) 2010-12-15 23:27 ah yes 2010-12-15 23:27 you right 2010-12-15 23:28 hmm i'm confused but Carlos send a patch for a 2 bit thing on SIE, maybe i'm wrong 2010-12-15 23:28 phew :) 2010-12-15 23:28 ah zoom tricky me 2010-12-15 23:29 bus probably isn't master-capable. sdio would be a possibility. but the protocol is a little tricky 2010-12-15 23:30 r u still referring to my question or something else 2010-12-15 23:31 wpwrak: http://kristianpaul.org/~paul/tmp/SIESDIO.png 2010-12-15 23:31 GWEARI: we're trying to figure out a reasonable way to shovel data from an FPGA into the CPU (be it on SIE or ben) 2010-12-15 23:31 GWEARI: something else, actually your question is not too much related to copyleft hardware btw :) 2010-12-15 23:32 kewl. one bit :-( 2010-12-15 23:32 ah thats it 2010-12-15 23:32 hehe 2010-12-15 23:32 why efficient if you can make it horribly slow ? :) 2010-12-15 23:33 i think that EMC bus sharing in SIE is there because a reason 2010-12-15 23:33 i wonder what the reason for this is. ran out of GPIOs ? 2010-12-15 23:33 (i hope) 2010-12-15 23:33 wpwrak: yes 2010-12-15 23:33 it better be ;-) 2010-12-15 23:33 u don't know nething on the subject then? 2010-12-15 23:33 :/ 2010-12-15 23:34 i tought it was same cpu as ben  (hoping re-use kerboard pins) but this differ 2010-12-15 23:34 not sure if you can do SDIO with that configuration 2010-12-15 23:34 isn't it the 4740 ? 2010-12-15 23:34 or maybe i'm confused :) 2010-12-15 23:34 4725 2010-12-15 23:34 i was too 2010-12-15 23:34 aah, 4725. right. 2010-12-15 23:36 hehe. that cpu indeed has only one pin there. wow. that takes courage ;-) 2010-12-15 23:39 where would you recomend i go with this question? 2010-12-15 23:40 GWEARI: #electronics may guide you better i think 2010-12-15 23:46 wpwrak: you think implement sync/2 in a register bit then data in the next address, and read from there is too much pain ? 2010-12-15 23:47 any way, i'll try it that way 2010-12-15 23:47 i'm off bed now, read you soon 2010-12-15 23:49 (too much pain) dunno. but seems the next logical step