2010-12-13 01:32 <xiangfu> larsc: it that kernel dim the screen where there is no input in keyboard?
2010-12-13 01:57 <kyak> xiangfu: thinking about dimming in gmenu2x? :)
2010-12-13 02:04 <xiangfu> kyak: yes.
2010-12-13 02:04 <xiangfu> kyak: seems there is no dimming in gmenu2x. but it's ok. I just want document why the screen don't dim in gmenu2x :)
2010-12-13 02:06 <xiangfu> kyak: btw. me and yi testing this image: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/image-full_system-12122010-1400/
2010-12-13 02:06 <xiangfu> kyak: I want use this one as the next openwrt release.
2010-12-13 02:06 <kyak> if this gets documented, maybe it's half of problem solving
2010-12-13 02:07 <kyak> xiangfu: i'm always on the latest image :) though it's not full
2010-12-13 02:11 <xiangfu> kyak: since the GMU/bash can dim the screen, but gmenu2x. so I think there is something wrong with the gmenu2x.
2010-12-13 02:11 <xiangfu> nothing about kernel.
2010-12-13 02:13 <kyak> i think there is a code inside GMU that's responsible for screen dimming
2010-12-13 02:14 <kyak> because it happens faster than when just idling in ash
2010-12-13 02:14 <xiangfu> kyak: yes. I just found that.
2010-12-13 02:14 <xiangfu> gmu. write /sys/class/lcd/gpm940b0-lcd/lcd_power
2010-12-13 02:15 <kyak> heh
2010-12-13 02:15 <kyak> easy
2010-12-13 02:16 <xiangfu> kyak: then I will just document that 'gmenu2x' don't support dim screen. :)
2010-12-13 02:19 <kyak> maybe we could use a daemon, like triggerhappy to monitor /dev/event* and then dim the screen, if necessary
2010-12-13 02:19 <kyak> independent on the application
2010-12-13 02:20 <kyak> maybe triggerhappy is already capable of that?
2010-12-13 02:30 <xiangfu> kyak: I don't think so.
2010-12-13 02:43 <xiangfu> kyak: do you use the ""--utf8-output"" in sdcv ?
2010-12-13 02:44 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: sdcv: add --utf8-output paramer http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/397ad4e
2010-12-13 02:50 <kyak> xiangfu: both --utf8-output and --utf8-input
2010-12-13 07:23 <andres-calderon> wolfspraul: Hi
2010-12-13 07:25 <andres-calderon> wolfspraul: The current BOOKSHELF  include all chips (except the CIS)
2010-12-13 07:26 <andres-calderon> wolfspraul:  Missing all pasives ... (this work is very boring).
2010-12-13 07:28 <andres-calderon> I think that  in the future we can connect the BOOKSHELF file to the wiki
2010-12-13 07:34 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: hi
2010-12-13 08:19 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add emacs http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1790d45
2010-12-13 08:47 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: you there?
2010-12-13 09:04 <wpwrak> good morning :)
2010-12-13 09:04 <kristianpaul> morning
2010-12-13 09:06 <wpwrak> andres-calderon: ah, don't worry about the standard passives. they're highly replacable anyway.
2010-12-13 09:06 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I just saw Adam's mail on the list
2010-12-13 09:06 <wolfspraul> I did a little boom & dsv session with Adam last week, but I think we need to give a little more guidance and feedback otherwise it may go off in strange directions.
2010-12-13 09:06 <wpwrak> andres-calderon: only hif you have something particularly odd. ah, diodes are often interesting, too, e.g., for their reverse current
2010-12-13 09:06 <wolfspraul> but I think Adam is onto that task now, good! :-)
2010-12-13 09:07 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (session) great !
2010-12-13 09:07 <wpwrak> checking the list ..
2010-12-13 09:10 <wpwrak> ah, i think i understand what he means
2010-12-13 09:12 <wpwrak> putting the component reference as an alias is a band-aid for sure. but since we don't have the proper connection through boom yet, i think it's a nice idea. only takes a moment to remove when the "real thing" is there.
2010-12-13 09:15 <wpwrak> it shouldn't interfere with the workflow either ... you'd look up the data sheet with dsv while reading the schematics. so you ought to know what part you need. the data sheet just explains how the part(s) work(s).
2010-12-13 09:15 <wpwrak> (guidance) yes, agreed
2010-12-13 09:17 <wpwrak> we also need a bit more real life experience with the whole thing :)
2010-12-13 09:28 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: Ornotermes was chatting to me about his Arduino-like Linux board
2010-12-13 09:29 <wolfspraul> I think Xue may be the closest :-)
2010-12-13 09:29 <wolfspraul> after testing Milkymist One boards for 2 weeks I am more than ever convinced that this is the right path
2010-12-13 09:30 <wolfspraul> the run was a big success by the way, speaking as the manufacturer for now (boards haven't reached customers yet)
2010-12-13 09:30 <wolfspraul> we learnt a lot, and produced 35 fully working boards (run of 40)
2010-12-13 09:31 <wpwrak> how big was the yield ?
2010-12-13 09:31 <wolfspraul> will send a detailed report asap, hopefully tomorrow
2010-12-13 09:31 <wpwrak> whee !
2010-12-13 09:31 <wpwrak> very good !
2010-12-13 09:31 <wolfspraul> well it was very messy of course
2010-12-13 09:31 <wpwrak> as one would expect for a fist run :)
2010-12-13 09:31 <wolfspraul> a slight euphemism, well you know me, when I say "we learnt a lot" :-)
2010-12-13 09:31 <wolfspraul> he he
2010-12-13 09:31 <wpwrak> (right path) what ? xue as arduino-like ?
2010-12-13 09:32 <wolfspraul> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/doc/production/m1_rc2_test_report.ods
2010-12-13 09:32 <Ornotermes> could one change the fpga configuration at runtime?
2010-12-13 09:32 <wolfspraul> no, Ornotermes wants to have an Arduino-like board, but with more power and running Linux
2010-12-13 09:32 <wolfspraul> he doesn't like SIE because it has an fpga
2010-12-13 09:33 <wolfspraul> of course one could make an arduino-like board with just Ingenic, but the beauty of Arduino is in the shields, tools, documentation, etc.
2010-12-13 09:33 <wolfspraul> copying all that is nonsense, I think Arduino makes sense exactly as it is today
2010-12-13 09:34 <wolfspraul> but from our perspective, I'd say that 'Arduino-like board with more power' is Xue
2010-12-13 09:34 <wpwrak> ah, bearstech are getting into this ? good :)
2010-12-13 09:34 <wolfspraul> just minus the cmos image sensor
2010-12-13 09:34 <Ornotermes> will, it's not really that it has an fpga, its that it seems like overkill if there is a cpu with a lot of I/O already
2010-12-13 09:34 <Ornotermes> well*
2010-12-13 09:35 <wolfspraul> the key results are that 35 boards pass 100%
2010-12-13 09:35 <wolfspraul> all rc1 fixes were successful, no regressions
2010-12-13 09:36 <wolfspraul> now we continue full power on the 100 loose ends everywhere
2010-12-13 09:36 <wpwrak> (xue as arduin-like) how would you position SIE ?
2010-12-13 09:36 <wolfspraul> me?
2010-12-13 09:36 <wpwrak> yup
2010-12-13 09:36 <wolfspraul> don't know
2010-12-13 09:36 <wpwrak> (no regression, only 100 loose ends) sounds great :)
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> most important now is the case
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> roh is on it...
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> jtag-serial board, in the making
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> ce/fcc - after case
2010-12-13 09:37 <wpwrak> (case) i saw that you have some scary mechanics. badly fitting connectors. ah well, a bigger hole solves that :)
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> proper box, get accessories under control
2010-12-13 09:37 <wolfspraul> which connector?
2010-12-13 09:38 <wolfspraul> you mean what I wrote here?
2010-12-13 09:38 <wpwrak> DC
2010-12-13 09:38 <wpwrak> yes
2010-12-13 09:38 <wolfspraul> ah yes
2010-12-13 09:38 <wpwrak> some days ago
2010-12-13 09:38 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-12-13 09:38 <wolfspraul> well let's see
2010-12-13 09:38 <wolfspraul> bigger holes for now, yes
2010-12-13 09:39 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: xue/BOOKSHELF has some loose ends too :-)
2010-12-13 09:39 <wolfspraul> or example it has a D: line pointing to a .htm url - http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/spartan-6.htm
2010-12-13 09:39 <wolfspraul> what do you think?
2010-12-13 09:39 <wolfspraul> one option is to launch a browser instead of xpdf
2010-12-13 09:39 <wolfspraul> this page lists a lot of pdf docs
2010-12-13 09:40 <wolfspraul> so another option would be to include them directly in BOOKSHELF, maybe one by one as they are actually needed in the project
2010-12-13 09:40 <wolfspraul> what do you think?
2010-12-13 09:41 <wolfspraul> another idea - can you make 'xpdf' configurable, say if there is an environment variable DSV_PDFVIEWER or so it will take that, otherwise xpdf?
2010-12-13 09:41 <wolfspraul> there could even be some more logic, for example if someone has evince installed but not xpdf, dsv could detect that
2010-12-13 09:42 <wpwrak> launching a browser is problematic. first of all, which do you launch, and second, what will it do then ? e.g., firefox with its "one session only" dogma is a very bad fit
2010-12-13 09:43 <wpwrak> konqueror would work better. it spits out lots of junk on stderr (maybe stdout as well), though. plus, few people have/know it.
2010-12-13 09:44 <wpwrak> (pdfviewer) the variable sounds like a good idea
2010-12-13 09:44 <wolfspraul> how standardized is this /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser stuff?
2010-12-13 09:44 <wolfspraul> is that in LSB or somewhere?
2010-12-13 09:44 <wpwrak> i think (but not sure) it's a debianism
2010-12-13 09:45 <wolfspraul> what do you think about that particular .htm case?
2010-12-13 09:46 <wolfspraul> should we include some pdfs from inside it into the BOOKSHELF?
2010-12-13 09:46 <wolfspraul> I like the offline-ness
2010-12-13 09:46 <wolfspraul> that's whether dsv supports .htm or not
2010-12-13 09:47 <wolfspraul> another small detail - if you run 'dsv setup' without a filename, can't it assume 'BOOKSHELF' by default
2010-12-13 09:47 <wolfspraul> we want to write some more 'hardware style guide' anyway, and the BOOKSHELF file looks like a nice default
2010-12-13 09:47 <wpwrak> (pdfs inside) you can always manually put them. that's what i do.
2010-12-13 09:48 <wolfspraul> but then 'dsv setup' shouldn't just do nothing when it's called, it could print an error 'missing filename', or use BOOKSHELF as the default
2010-12-13 09:48 <wolfspraul> I would prefer the BOOKSHELF default
2010-12-13 09:48 <wolfspraul> have you looked at that url :-)
2010-12-13 09:48 <wolfspraul> there's like 20-50 pdfs there
2010-12-13 09:48 <wpwrak> and indeed, you lose the offline-ness if you just fire up a browser. taht is, unless you start mirroring. but let's not get there ;-)
2010-12-13 09:48 <wpwrak> you probably don't need all of them ;-)
2010-12-13 09:48 <wolfspraul> I will probably just add them one by one as needed. even if there is a duplication with the .html url, this is all about caching/offline and convenienc, so a bit of redundancy is not bad imho
2010-12-13 09:49 <wpwrak> (BOOKSHELF default) dunno. the fewer "magic names", the better :)
2010-12-13 09:49 <wolfspraul> ah, speaking about that
2010-12-13 09:50 <wolfspraul> how about adding a 'clean:' target in addition to the 'spotless:' magic name? :-)
2010-12-13 09:51 <wolfspraul> a BOOKSHELF file in the root folder looks like a good entry in the style guideline we plan to build over time
2010-12-13 09:51 <wpwrak> (clean target) err, where ?
2010-12-13 09:51 <wolfspraul> then at least 'dsv setup' could do more than nothing, for example it could say 'missing filename, try dsv setup BOOKSHELF'
2010-12-13 09:51 <wolfspraul> in boom
2010-12-13 09:51 <wolfspraul> just came to mind since you condemned magic names
2010-12-13 09:52 <wolfspraul> but with no 'clean' and only 'spotless' present, I'd say that qualifies too...
2010-12-13 09:52 <wolfspraul> if you want I can try some of those dsv improvements, can send you a patch or commit right away, whatever you prefer. just want to make sure it's in line with your thinking.
2010-12-13 09:52 <wolfspraul> the current dsv will just download .htm files, then call xpdf with it -> fail
2010-12-13 09:54 <wpwrak> (clean/spotless) yeah, i usually try to have both. not 100% consistent, though.
2010-12-13 09:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv: added DSV_PDFVIEWER as a means to set a PDF viewer different from xpdf http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/fb1c75c
2010-12-13 09:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv: print usage on "dsv setup" without file name http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/ff29948
2010-12-13 09:55 <wpwrak> done already :) not sure about the html
2010-12-13 09:55 <wpwrak> supporting it may create the wrong incentive :)
2010-12-13 09:56 <wolfspraul> all fine by me, pdf seems to be the gold standard anyway
2010-12-13 09:57 <wolfspraul> the html pages I looked at so far (from the xue bookshelf), point to lists of pdf files
2010-12-13 09:57 <wpwrak> (pdf) yup. andres also found one .png  :)
2010-12-13 09:58 <wpwrak> extracting pdf URLs can sometimes be tricky. e.g., with silabs, it's all done in javascript, so if your browser doesn't let you access the download url, you have to dig into the page source :-(
2010-12-13 09:59 <wolfspraul> I'm wondering who uses those 'STEP-DOWN CONVERTER' names
2010-12-13 09:59 <wpwrak> (download urls) but i guess we can come up with some "best practice" for that
2010-12-13 09:59 <wpwrak> bogus, imho
2010-12-13 09:59 <wolfspraul> not to mention that it appears twice for two separate files.
2010-12-13 09:59 <wolfspraul> what happens if the same nick appears twice?
2010-12-13 09:59 <wolfspraul> probably it will just take the first, or last?
2010-12-13 09:59 <wpwrak> andres hasn't changed anything since i commented on the various problems with the names
2010-12-13 10:00 <wolfspraul> do you work with hardlinks?
2010-12-13 10:00 <wpwrak> hmm, the last :)
2010-12-13 10:00 <wolfspraul> well it's very easy
2010-12-13 10:00 <wpwrak> they're all regular files
2010-12-13 10:00 <wolfspraul> I will only manufacture after we have REAL innovation on the freedom, process and KiCad side
2010-12-13 10:01 <wolfspraul> and since I doubt there will be other daredevil manufacturers jumping into this, we will speed up the cleanup or delay the production :-)
2010-12-13 10:01 <wpwrak> you mean xue ?
2010-12-13 10:02 <wpwrak> (real innovation) with what we have already, most would probably consider us way beyond edge of the visible universe ;-)
2010-12-13 10:02 <qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed STEP-DOWN-CONVERTER alias http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/94d892a
2010-12-13 10:02 <wolfspraul> so, tested commit, works :-)
2010-12-13 10:03 <wolfspraul> you mean the feedback you gave on the list?
2010-12-13 10:03 <wpwrak> yes
2010-12-13 10:03 <wolfspraul> I will pull up the mail and make it my todo list for tomorrow :-)
2010-12-13 10:04 <wpwrak> about the special characters, commas in aliases, etc.
2010-12-13 10:04 <wpwrak> (special = non-ascii)
2010-12-13 10:04 <wpwrak> some of them are nasty. they hang tools.
2010-12-13 10:04 <wolfspraul> sure
2010-12-13 10:06 <wpwrak> andres found a few interesting cases, though. e.g., "/" is indeed something you see from time to time
2010-12-13 10:06 <wolfspraul> do you understand Adam's feedback?
2010-12-13 10:07 <wolfspraul> I tried to explain to him that dsv is separate from boom, but he always keeps mentioning them together. he probably has a point somewhere, but I don't get it yet.
2010-12-13 10:08 <wpwrak> he found a real problem, namely that things in the schematics are under-specified. but then he confuses things by connecting them with dsv.
2010-12-13 10:18 <wolfspraul> ok we sort it out
2010-12-13 10:18 <wolfspraul> I do agree with adam that we will work on bookshelf and the bom in parallel
2010-12-13 10:19 <wolfspraul> in the end we should have a link to a pdf for almost everything on the board, why not
2010-12-13 10:35 <lekernel> http://identi.ca/freetard
2010-12-13 10:36 <kristianpaul> huh?
2010-12-13 10:36 <kristianpaul> hahah
2010-12-13 10:36 <kristianpaul> hehe
2010-12-13 10:36 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-12-13 10:45 <lekernel> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/12/the_ultimate_open_source_hardware_g.html
2010-12-13 10:49 <wpwrak> (freetard) nice ;-)
2010-12-13 10:51 <wpwrak> (gifts) yeah, you made it ! congratulations ! :)
2010-12-13 10:51 <wpwrak> kewl. and the ben is there, too
2010-12-13 10:51 <lekernel> yup
2010-12-13 10:55 <wpwrak> lekernel: btw, i think it would be good if you could post on the qi-hw list when you'll have your workshop. it currently seems a bit under-reported.
2010-12-13 10:56 <lekernel> what workshop? 27C3?
2010-12-13 10:56 <lekernel> yeah
2010-12-13 10:56 <wpwrak> yup
2010-12-13 10:56 <lekernel> it's totally under-reported
2010-12-13 10:56 <lekernel> it's not even on the congress website, nor fully confirmed yet... :/
2010-12-13 10:56 <wpwrak> it's a bit unfortunate that wolfgang didn't mention it in the last monthly news
2010-12-13 10:56 <lekernel> maybe i'll wait a bit for the boards to arrive to Beartech, then I can also announce price etc.
2010-12-13 10:57 <wpwrak> (not fully confirmed) you mean the event or the date ?
2010-12-13 10:57 <lekernel> I still haven't got a confirmation of the CCC organizers that i'll have the room
2010-12-13 10:57 <wpwrak> hmm, maybe ping them
2010-12-13 10:57 <wpwrak> would be bad if it got dropped on the floor somehow
2010-12-13 10:57 <lekernel> oh, they're aware of it
2010-12-13 10:58 <wpwrak> after all, "chaos" is part of the concept ;-)
2010-12-13 10:58 <lekernel> they wrote me last week
2010-12-13 10:58 <wpwrak> so if there's a problem with that room, what would be the plan B ?
2010-12-13 10:59 <lekernel> no workshop
2010-12-13 10:59 <wpwrak> urgh :-(
2010-12-13 10:59 <wpwrak> something else instead ? talk or such ?
2010-12-13 11:00 <lekernel> I don't know
2010-12-13 11:00 <wpwrak> (which may actually be an improvement, in terms of reaching the masses :)
2010-12-13 11:00 <lekernel> in all cases we'll sell boards and put posters all over the place
2010-12-13 11:00 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2010-12-13 11:01 <wpwrak> if you think a talk may be better than a workshop and it seems there may be a problem with getting the workshop, perhaps you could also suggest a change
2010-12-13 11:02 <wpwrak> if they have talk slots open (people dropping out and such), that may be a welcome relief for them
2010-12-13 11:03 <wpwrak> of course, it's rather ugly that they don't have such things confirmed by now. i guess you should have told them you'd travel there from australia :)
2010-12-13 11:04 <lekernel> they also have a soundsystem it seems, no?
2010-12-13 11:04 <lekernel> phonoelit or something like that
2010-12-13 11:04 <lekernel> in one of the rooms
2010-12-13 11:04 <wpwrak> no idea
2010-12-13 11:05 <lekernel> ah, yes, phonoelit
2010-12-13 11:06 <lekernel> though they moved the party to cassiopeia...
2010-12-13 11:06 <lekernel> from my experience cassiopeia is more a place for young and drunken people
2010-12-13 11:07 <lekernel> it's also rather far from the bcc
2010-12-13 11:09 <wpwrak> young and drunken should work well. geeks are the sort who grow up slowly if at all, and for many, surroundings with other geeks are the only opportunities to socialize - which invites excesses :-)
2010-12-13 11:09 <kristianpaul> damn i want a mm1 but i also want save more money for  a USRP v1
2010-12-13 11:09 <kristianpaul> :?
2010-12-13 11:10 <lekernel> kristianpaul: send software patches & bugfixes and you get discounts :)
2010-12-13 11:10 <kristianpaul> hmm
2010-12-13 11:10 <wpwrak> chicken and egg ;-)
2010-12-13 11:10 <lekernel> no, there's QEMU
2010-12-13 11:11 <wpwrak> good point
2010-12-13 11:11 <kristianpaul> well i have tow MM soc running on fpga, but i miss some ram :(
2010-12-13 11:11 <kristianpaul> well i have tim
2010-12-13 11:11 <kristianpaul> e
2010-12-13 14:01 <kristianpaul> ha wikireaders are shipped from taipei
2010-12-13 14:05 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: that's where om are at home
2010-12-13 14:31 <kristianpaul> oh
2010-12-13 14:32 <kristianpaul> worfgang neighbours :)
2010-12-13 14:32 <kristianpaul> s/r/l
2010-12-13 15:53 <lekernel_> what license would be better for a FPGA synthesis tool? BSD? GPL?
2010-12-13 15:58 <viric> Do you want to force the users to publish their modifications?
2010-12-13 15:58 <viric> When they publish some variant of it on binary form
2010-12-13 15:58 <lekernel_> yes, that's the question
2010-12-13 15:58 <viric> I'd go GPL unless someone asks for a BSD license
2010-12-13 15:58 <wpwrak> lekernel_: depends a bit on your objectives. if you want to see the code used as much as possible, bsd. if you want to see it prosper in an open environment, gpl.
2010-12-13 15:59 <viric> wpwrak: his code may be used, but he may not see it being used :)
2010-12-13 15:59 <wpwrak> viric: yes, that's the catch :)
2010-12-13 15:59 <lekernel_> I want to enable potential contributing companies as much as possible
2010-12-13 15:59 <lekernel_> otoh I'd still like them to release their modifications
2010-12-13 15:59 <wpwrak> lekernel_: in any case, don't count on them being "reasonable". if they see a way not to contribute back, they will almost certainly choose that path.
2010-12-13 16:00 <viric> for a company, it is usually a much heavier work to fulfill the GPL than the BSD *minimums*, so...
2010-12-13 16:01 <lekernel_> maybe something like LGPL or GPL with linking exception could be nice
2010-12-13 16:01 <wpwrak> lekernel_: you can also consider the option of dual licensing up to the point where you're no longer the only copyright holder. depending on how you see the process go, this may or may not be feasible.
2010-12-13 16:02 <viric> lekernel_: LGPL only requires that *your part* be always replaceable.
2010-12-13 16:02 <viric> lekernel_: and still requires modifications to be published as in GPL
2010-12-13 16:02 <wpwrak> in this scenario, you'd pick the most restrictive license, and wait for a "good enough reason" to come along. if none happens, nothing changes :)
2010-12-13 16:02 <lekernel_> wpwrak: yeah, that's a plan
2010-12-13 16:03 <viric> Yes, I'd do that way. If someone asks another kind of license, you may later decide what to do.
2010-12-13 16:03 <viric> but you have to care on where your contributions come from
2010-12-13 16:03 <viric> If more than one person holds the copyright... you all have to agree on licensing changes
2010-12-13 16:03 <lekernel_> yeah, sure
2010-12-13 16:04 <wpwrak> the good thing about the gpl is that it balances things quite well. it doesn't try to make everyone happy, but nobody has to be too unhappy either
2010-12-13 16:04 <lekernel_> aren't there companies which contribute to BSD-licensed projects?
2010-12-13 16:04 <lekernel_> it's hard to guess who would contribute to such a project...
2010-12-13 16:05 <lekernel_> hobbyists, probably not
2010-12-13 16:05 <lekernel_> mentor graphics, synopsys, etc. definitely not
2010-12-13 16:05 <wpwrak> there ought to be. but you also get those who just take the code and run.
2010-12-13 16:05 <lekernel_> fpga startups? maybe...
2010-12-13 16:05 <viric> it's hard to compete with the free synthesizers from the big companies
2010-12-13 16:05 <wpwrak> why not hobbyists ? they may not add "core functionality", but things like ports and such
2010-12-13 16:06 <wpwrak> viric: everything is hard before you've done it the first time :)
2010-12-13 16:06 <lekernel_> viric: what free synthesizers?
2010-12-13 16:06 <viric> free to use
2010-12-13 16:06 <lekernel_> Xst? Quartus? no :)
2010-12-13 16:06 <viric> yes
2010-12-13 16:06 <lekernel_> or, well, a synthesizer is hard to write
2010-12-13 16:06 <lekernel_> but Xst and Quartus are the easiest to compete with, relatively
2010-12-13 16:07 <viric> are they?
2010-12-13 16:07 <lekernel_> yeah, they're buggy bloated crap
2010-12-13 16:07 <viric> that, sure.
2010-12-13 16:07 <viric> but they are free, and they work for many cases.
2010-12-13 16:08 <lekernel_> wpwrak: why not hobbyists? look at what hobbyists contribute to opencores.org :)
2010-12-13 16:09 <viric> lekernel_: who do you work for?
2010-12-13 16:09 <lekernel_> people who can't design a CPU probably can't contribute much to a synthesizer...
2010-12-13 16:10 <wpwrak> well, there's a lot of stuff at opencores. seems to work for some people. their requirements may be different from yours, so things that you'd consider horribly inefficient are acceptable for them.
2010-12-13 16:11 <wpwrak> and haven't you used some of the material/concepts from there ? wishbone and such ?
2010-12-13 16:11 <lekernel> no
2010-12-13 16:11 <wpwrak> also, the big entry of programmable hardware into the DIY market is still to happen :)
2010-12-13 16:11 <lekernel> every time I used something from there, this resulted in a failed debug session, a complete rewrite and lots of time wasted
2010-12-13 16:12 <wpwrak> (wishbone) ah, i thought you once mentioned it
2010-12-13 16:12 <viric> lekernel: are you suffering the "I should do all myself" syndrome? :)
2010-12-13 16:12 <wpwrak> ;-))
2010-12-13 16:12 <lekernel> yeah, I still have a few things which use wishbone, but it's not much, really
2010-12-13 16:12 <wpwrak> viric: in fact, it was recently renamed to "lekernel's syndrome" ;-)
2010-12-13 16:13 <lekernel> viric: no, I use good tools when they exist
2010-12-13 16:13 <lekernel> I didn't rewrite git for example, which is the only thing that never broke during milkymist development
2010-12-13 16:14 <lekernel> by contrast, svn was routelinely crashing and sometimes even corrupting my repository... I wonder how I have supported it for so long :)
2010-12-13 16:15 <lekernel> the problem is simply that most software is crappy
2010-12-13 16:15 <lekernel> and Verilog cores, even worse
2010-12-13 16:15 <viric> lekernel: it's for cvs users to feel comfortable
2010-12-13 16:15 <wpwrak> funny. never had such trouble with svn. svn is pretty much "nice and simple". alas, also grossly inefficient at some things.
2010-12-13 16:15 <viric> I've had troubles with both svn and git :)
2010-12-13 16:15 <lekernel> wpwrak: download the linux source, svn add *, svn ci
2010-12-13 16:16 <lekernel> this will crash it for sure
2010-12-13 16:16 <lekernel> git handles that perfectly
2010-12-13 16:16 <viric> svn is quite outdated software based on outdated ideas
2010-12-13 16:16 <viric> no fair comparision
2010-12-13 16:33 <lekernel> wpwrak: can you give a single example of something I should have re-used instead of replaced?
2010-12-13 16:42 <wpwrak> lekernel: of course not :)
2010-12-13 20:57 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: are you planning to sell M1 as sharism or just this shop in germany?
2010-12-13 20:57 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: btw what's that about the fedora server?.. (is related to milkymist and FEL?)
2010-12-13 21:09 <wolfspraul> I sell m1 to anybody who pays me.
2010-12-13 21:09 <wolfspraul> fedora, no this was just a private comment. After many years I am trying my first non-Debian system now, setting up a small Fedora server.
2010-12-13 21:10 <wolfspraul> this may become bigger if Fedora continues to support Milkymist as much as they seem to do.
2010-12-13 21:10 <wolfspraul> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-electronic-lab/wiki/Milkymist
2010-12-13 21:11 <wolfspraul> I think this is impressive.
2010-12-13 21:11 <wolfspraul> so we see
2010-12-13 21:13 <kristianpaul> it is
2010-12-13 21:14 <wolfspraul> I was a RedHat user back in the 6.x days
2010-12-13 21:14 <wolfspraul> then a long journey through pretty much all other major distros, Debian the last few years
2010-12-13 21:15 <wolfspraul> maybe it's time to consider Fedora a bit more again :-)
2010-12-13 21:19 <kristianpaul> fedora and mm1 yes, if just dont have it working  my mm development env on debian now, i'll swich to fedore for sure
2010-12-13 21:21 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-12-13 21:21 <wolfspraul> interesting
2010-12-13 21:21 <wolfspraul> well OK, if things go that way then maybe we see more Fedora use, don't know
2010-12-13 21:21 <wolfspraul> Sebastien has given up trying to get his stuff into Debian, and I don't blame him for his focus.
2010-12-13 21:21 <wolfspraul> (he has great focus)
2010-12-13 21:22 <wolfspraul> meanwhile the Fedora people come forward and jump into this enthousiastically, create a project page, track progress, pull pull pull
2010-12-13 21:22 <wolfspraul> admirable
2010-12-13 21:28 <wpwrak> the best approach with distros: write good stuff, then wait for them to find it and pick it up :)
2010-12-13 21:30 <wpwrak> the whole idea of "developing into a distro" is bogus. you can do that maybe for one, but even there, you're probably not at the edge for long (that is, unless you're an active maintainer of several packages)
2010-12-13 21:32 <wpwrak> but FEL is indeed quite impressive. lots of cool stuff there.
2010-12-13 21:32 <kristianpaul> yup
2010-12-13 21:37 <wolfspraul> what do you mean with 'developing into a distro'?
2010-12-13 21:37 <kristianpaul> From workshop in ccc you could better feedback on FEL, i think setup time will be clue on for that day
2010-12-13 21:37 <wolfspraul> someone has to be maintainer, it's not so much about pushing anything down anybody's throat, but offering help and sharing the workload
2010-12-13 21:37 <wolfspraul> say what we did with fped in Debian :-)
2010-12-13 21:38 <wolfspraul> you could have waited for 10 years and it would not have been 'picked up'
2010-12-13 21:38 <kristianpaul> other sofware "in the wild"? :)
2010-12-13 21:39 <kristianpaul> It was in fedora already may i wrong?
2010-12-13 21:41 <wolfspraul> fped you mean?
2010-12-13 21:41 <wpwrak> (developing into a distro) basically distro-centric development. instead of just maintaining a "standard" build environment and letting someone whose day to day business is putting things into the distro take care of the integration
2010-12-13 21:41 <wolfspraul> yeah it was 'picked up' very very early
2010-12-13 21:41 <kristianpaul> fped: yes
2010-12-13 21:41 <wolfspraul> the fedora guys are amazingly proactive
2010-12-13 21:41 <kristianpaul> yup
2010-12-13 21:42 <kristianpaul> thats the word, proactive
2010-12-13 21:42 <wolfspraul> ah yes I agree, of course distro-specific dependencies are bad
2010-12-13 21:47 <wpwrak> (debian/fped) oh, that was nice and it definitely accelerated things (and probably made the integration cleaner). but in the long run, xiangfu will probably run out of time for maintaining that link, because debian is probably only a very peripheral interest for him. then the package will age and eventually break. then someone else who is closer to debian will pick it up.
2010-12-13 21:48 <wpwrak> it all works magically. i never put much effort into aligning stuff with distros. when it gets used, they'll keep it in stock :)
2010-12-13 21:50 <kristianpaul> maintaing software is hard task for long run, sadly most of distro dont follow upstream work as openwrt i think it does
2010-12-13 21:51 <kristianpaul> that i think saves times
2010-12-13 21:51 <kristianpaul> not sure how really help or eventually may drop out some headaches (upstream fault?..)
2010-12-13 21:55 <wpwrak> depends a bit. some popular packages are in good shape. the more exotic ones with deep dependencies are the ones that tend to fall behind.
2010-12-13 21:56 <wpwrak> so i guess it's something like uptodateness = O(popularity/build_complexity)
2010-12-13 21:57 <wpwrak> e.g., kicad used to have troubles with this. basically all the distros only had ancient versions. but then, the build requisites are also quite hellish.
2010-12-13 21:59 <kristianpaul> wait may be git/svn/mercurial/bazaar will envolute/mutate some day in also a package management system
2010-12-13 21:59 <kristianpaul> that will really be helpfull for cases like kicad
2010-12-13 21:59 <kristianpaul> i think
2010-12-13 21:59 <kristianpaul> what a mess sofware is anyway :)
2010-12-13 22:00 <wpwrak> oh dear :-) not sure. there are a lot of dependencies those revision control systems don't know about. not that there wouldn't also be other used for having them understand such things a little, but oh the complexity ...
2010-12-13 22:01 <kristianpaul> yes i forgot that
2010-12-13 22:02 <wpwrak> (e.g. our schematics diffs would benefit from having proper inter-project dependencies. some day, it'll be necessary to add some hits to this system, so that it can at least loosely synchronize related projects.)
2010-12-13 22:50 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I copied your naming components mail to this wiki page http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_Style_Guide
2010-12-13 22:50 <wolfspraul> I will start to collect bits and pieces there, slowly cleanup over time.
2010-12-13 22:52 <wpwrak> great, thanks
2010-12-13 22:52 <wpwrak> let's hope the mail wasn't too confusing :)
2010-12-13 22:54 <wolfspraul> no it's good
2010-12-13 22:54 <wolfspraul> we can only improve the system case by case
2010-12-13 22:54 <wolfspraul> then those cases set the precedent for the future, we see whether it still fits, or needs further specialization
2010-12-13 22:55 <wpwrak> yeah. component naming is nasty business. it's full of inconsistencies, implicit rules, and surprises.
2010-12-13 22:55 <wolfspraul> from all my experience in anything electrical and manufacturing, I'd say this is the way to go :-)
2010-12-13 22:55 <wpwrak> yeah. i don't know nearly enough for anything but the incremental approach :)
2010-12-13 22:58 <adamwang> wpwrak, agreed on full of inconsistencies, implicit rules, and surprises.
2010-12-13 22:59 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2010-12-13 22:59 <adamwang> i made wrong parts missed even swapped on Mlikymist One RC1/RC2 BoM.
2010-12-13 23:00 <wpwrak> i'm a little afraid that the high degree of automation in boom can cause trouble with bad specifications (e.g., incomplete names, overly specific names, and so on)
2010-12-13 23:00 <wpwrak> perhaps it'll be necessary to also keep boom output in repositories. that way, one can track what changes.
2010-12-13 23:01 <wolfspraul> let's work from top to bottom, starting in the schematics
2010-12-13 23:01 <adamwang> from latest status of boom. we know that this whole system can cover and overcome stupid mistakes made.
2010-12-13 23:02 <wpwrak> or maybe have some form of acceptance list. copy parts from the output to the list. then automatically compare new output with the list. if something changed too much, complain.
2010-12-13 23:02 <wpwrak> yes, it can work around lots of things. but it can also easily get mislaid. that's per se not so bad, because you ought to catch such things during review.
2010-12-13 23:03 <adamwang> um..i hope hackers work during developing sche, to do more precisely as possible even boom has not been became maturely.
2010-12-13 23:03 <wpwrak> (well, as long as you don't believe boom will just magically solve all your problems ;-)
2010-12-13 23:03 <adamwang> haha..:)
2010-12-13 23:04 <wpwrak> the missing bit is then simply to make sure any changes also get reviewed. since boom can change "spontaneously" (e.g., when prices or distributor stock change), we need some mechanism to record what has already been "seen".
2010-12-13 23:04 <adamwang> 'review' is also unnecessary in the end! it takes time & cost.
2010-12-13 23:04 <wpwrak> not super-urgent for now, but something to keep in mind
2010-12-13 23:04 <wpwrak> yeah, right ;-)))
2010-12-13 23:05 <adamwang> yeah....so far now still need reviews.
2010-12-13 23:05 <wolfspraul> U4 is named as K8001
2010-12-13 23:05 <wpwrak> (no reviews) let's not waste a day reviewing if we can spend a month doing another run after having turned the previous one into a major bloodbath ;-)
2010-12-13 23:06 <wolfspraul> is that the same as KSZ8001L on Milkymist One?
2010-12-13 23:07 <adamwang> you probably know that it always can be changeable during pcb layout (e.g. : change footprint etc.), but forgot to update schematic in parallel.
2010-12-13 23:07 <wpwrak> hehe ;-) http://www.micrel.com/images/pdf.png
2010-12-13 23:07 <wpwrak> yet another bug in BOOKSHELF
2010-12-13 23:08 <wolfspraul> no problem we have lots of good links already http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM
2010-12-13 23:08 <wpwrak> one can tell andres wasn't too happy about making that BOOKSHELF file :)
2010-12-13 23:08 <wolfspraul> just sloppy as usual, honestly
2010-12-13 23:08 <wolfspraul> we'll sort it out
2010-12-13 23:08 <adamwang> wolfspraul, i haven't jump into checking all parts in Xue. It may probably messy there.
2010-12-13 23:09 <wpwrak> (k8001) another nice one: part number is KS8001 for leaded and KSZ8001 for lead-free
2010-12-13 23:09 <wolfspraul> yes but we want to specify lead-free
2010-12-13 23:10 <wpwrak> where do you guys find all those crazy ones ? ;-)
2010-12-13 23:10 <adamwang> I'd like any related part related similar to Milkymist One brd, we recommend Andres to use the same part.
2010-12-13 23:10 <wolfspraul> adamwang: oh it will be the biggest mess you have seen in a long time
2010-12-13 23:10 <wolfspraul> maybe we can clean it up, maybe not
2010-12-13 23:10 <wolfspraul> if I feel uncomfortable wasting my money in a failed run, then the run will not happen
2010-12-13 23:11 <wolfspraul> (with my money, but from my experience I'd say there are few people that can match me in craziness, so I doubt someone else will show up)
2010-12-13 23:11 <wolfspraul> having said that, let's start the cleanup :-)
2010-12-13 23:11 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: we find them because we have to find them to make a controlled run with actually successful boards
2010-12-13 23:11 <wolfspraul> big surprise :-)
2010-12-13 23:11 <wolfspraul> only in my testing the last 2 weeks I realized what a difficult board m1 is
2010-12-13 23:12 <wolfspraul> fantastic work by Sebastien and Adam
2010-12-13 23:12 <adamwang> that's what I see hackers on naming part in schematic..too short naming...more dangerous, too long on naming...waiting time on thinking from hackers
2010-12-13 23:14 <adamwang> how this big challenge on growing up boom system...is a long way to go and promote to list.
2010-12-13 23:14 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (crazy parts) naw, it's pretty uncommon to have lead-free and such so early in the name. they usually put such things at the end. but we've now seen two in just a day.
2010-12-13 23:15 <wpwrak> (fantastic work) i agree. it's pretty impressive to get such a complex board right with so few runs
2010-12-13 23:15 <wolfspraul> yes but if we have to make a choice, let's specify lead-free and move on
2010-12-13 23:15 <wolfspraul> lots of work, spending the limited resources in the right places is very important
2010-12-13 23:16 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes but we have more complex boards to come, no? and ic tape-outs, which are entirely driven by testability, not features. that will be fun.
2010-12-13 23:16 <wpwrak> adamwang: (boom) the hard part are the interruptions it causes. you want to add something "simple" and then you realize that you should really add the whole class of parts. now, will you do it properly or not ? :) so the more short-tempered developers will need some cleaning after
2010-12-13 23:17 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (lead-free) sure. the leaded one is probably a collector's item by now anyway :)
2010-12-13 23:17 <adamwang> ha:) of course agreed
2010-12-13 23:18 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (driven by testability) what are you referring to ?
2010-12-13 23:18 <wolfspraul> the little I learnt about tape-outs so far is that the key driver in that process is whether you can test the results
2010-12-13 23:18 <wolfspraul> not the features
2010-12-13 23:19 <wolfspraul> that's because failure becomes exponentially more expensive as the process technology goes up
2010-12-13 23:19 <wpwrak> ah, i see. so that's the asics in ten years :)
2010-12-13 23:20 <wolfspraul> so the higher the process technology is, the more expensive failure gets, and in consequence (let's say for business that don't want to go bankrupt), the amount of time that goes into review, testing, preparing for testing, goes up exponentially as well
2010-12-13 23:20 <wolfspraul> it's quite simple actually, but some people seem to prefer bumping their head into the wall over and over and over again :-)
2010-12-13 23:21 <wpwrak> probably O(n^3) even
2010-12-13 23:22 <wolfspraul> adamwang: I want to show you something, not sure you have seen it before
2010-12-13 23:22 <wpwrak> one for the yield, one for increased cost of the process (assuming that per se is linear), and one for the higher probability of failure of a complex part
2010-12-13 23:22 <wolfspraul> when you push a commit into the repository, a 1-line commitlog will show up here
2010-12-13 23:22 <wolfspraul> for example...
2010-12-13 23:23 <qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: better U4 link http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/12b020f
2010-12-13 23:23 <adamwang> whole class of parts yes we need to classify it.
2010-12-13 23:23 <wolfspraul> I just pushed a small fix in BOOKSHELF
2010-12-13 23:23 <adamwang> ha ...ok
2010-12-13 23:23 <wolfspraul> these links here help to communicate that people are working on
2010-12-13 23:24 <wolfspraul> so once you have committed something locally, it's a good idea to push early
2010-12-13 23:24 <wolfspraul> oh, I haven't added you to the xue members yet
2010-12-13 23:24 <adamwang> pls add, thanks.
2010-12-13 23:25 <wpwrak> wow, that's a heck of a URL. let's see if dsv survives it
2010-12-13 23:25 <wpwrak> yup, works :)
2010-12-13 23:25 <wolfspraul> done
2010-12-13 23:26 <adamwang> tks
2010-12-13 23:26 <wolfspraul> adamwang: you need to git clone xue again, this time with git@projects.qi-hardware.com:xue.git
2010-12-13 23:26 <adamwang> yeah...ok
2010-12-13 23:26 <wolfspraul> just delete the whole folder, then type "git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:xue.git"
2010-12-13 23:26 <wolfspraul> should we rename this to KSZ8001?
2010-12-13 23:27 <wolfspraul> K8001 seems bad, you cannot google it at all and even searching k8001 on the micrel.com site finds nothing
2010-12-13 23:27 <wolfspraul> no wonder the link went to a meaningless png :-)
2010-12-13 23:28 <wolfspraul> dsv names are case sensitive, should we just accept that and say that schematics references should be written capitalized?
2010-12-13 23:28 <wolfspraul> or should we add both capitalized and lower case nicks?
2010-12-13 23:28 <wpwrak> K8001 doens't exist. KS8001 or, better, KZS8001. the data sheet starts with "The KSZ8001 [...]" :)
2010-12-13 23:29 <wpwrak> naw, i'd just pick one style.
2010-12-13 23:29 <wolfspraul> agreed, I change the alias to KSZ8001 in BOOKSHELF
2010-12-13 23:29 <wolfspraul> I think case-sensitive and saying that the refs should be capitalized is OK
2010-12-13 23:29 <adamwang> i would like the system can recognize/realize either capitalized or lower case.
2010-12-13 23:29 <wpwrak> e.g., in bwn-wpan, all the names i expect to type are lower-case. some things have an upper-case "official name" and a lower-case alias
2010-12-13 23:30 <wpwrak> e.g., "AN032" with alias "regulations"
2010-12-13 23:30 <wolfspraul> how about schematics references?
2010-12-13 23:31 <adamwang> but design during developing sch stage, it probably good to keep the same work sync to the 'word' of datasheet.
2010-12-13 23:31 <wolfspraul> adamwang: I agree with Werner that it is better to have only one system, as long as we clearly communicate it.
2010-12-13 23:31 <wpwrak> dunno. they capital letter there doesn't add much of a burden and may help to keep things apart
2010-12-13 23:31 <wpwrak> the annoying ones are long all-caps names or names with many letters
2010-12-13 23:32 <adamwang> wow...
2010-12-13 23:32 <wolfspraul> sure we will lower case those
2010-12-13 23:32 <wolfspraul> how about schematics references?
2010-12-13 23:32 <wolfspraul> the reason I am leaning towards capitalization is that they always seem to be capitalized
2010-12-13 23:32 <wolfspraul> for example in the .lst bom file eeschema produces
2010-12-13 23:33 <wolfspraul> it's always C13, U1
2010-12-13 23:33 <wolfspraul> not c13, u1
2010-12-13 23:33 <wolfspraul> I think
2010-12-13 23:33 <wpwrak> i think capitalizing them is fine
2010-12-13 23:33 <wolfspraul> adamwang: you just have been out-voted 2:1
2010-12-13 23:33 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-12-13 23:34 <wpwrak> i'd tend to lower-case most things i expect to input (for convenience), but capitalized component references don't look overly inconvenient
2010-12-13 23:34 <adamwang> :)...in schematic sheet  or BOOKSHELF...i agreed.
2010-12-13 23:34 <wolfspraul> oh great
2010-12-13 23:34 <wolfspraul> 3:0
2010-12-13 23:34 <wolfspraul> even better
2010-12-13 23:34 <wolfspraul> done
2010-12-13 23:34 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2010-12-13 23:35 <adamwang> i was saying that hopefully the system can realized them..well...
2010-12-13 23:35 <wpwrak> also, i think we really ought to view the dsv names as quite local. dsv is most useful if you can do things like "dsv fpga" or "dsv antenna"
2010-12-13 23:36 <wpwrak> it's a tool that's should give the engineer quick access to information. every second counts ;-)
2010-12-13 23:36 <wolfspraul> agree
2010-12-13 23:36 <wolfspraul> adamwang: let me explain some background
2010-12-13 23:36 <adamwang> simply work on s/w work....then let hackers more works on 'right' keying process. :)
2010-12-13 23:37 <wpwrak> of course, this also means that there be no more excuses for not looking up things in the data sheet ;-))
2010-12-13 23:37 <wolfspraul> what you are asking for is 'case insensitive' matching, either by listing both U1 and u1 manually, or by having the matching done 'case-insensitive'
2010-12-13 23:37 <wolfspraul> when you say anything 'case insensitive', you may not create many new friends in the free software world
2010-12-13 23:37 <wolfspraul> they have a long history of saying that 'case insensitive' is bad :-)
2010-12-13 23:37 <wpwrak> case-insensitive as a rule isn't too bad an idea. but it's not the unix way, which makes me a bit reluctant.
2010-12-13 23:38 <adamwang> right...no matter U1 , u1...KSZ8001 , ksz8001....hehe
2010-12-13 23:38 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I just simplify for Adam and try to explain the culture as clearly as possible.
2010-12-13 23:38 <wolfspraul> otherwise nobody ever says it, that's even worse
2010-12-13 23:38 <wpwrak> yup. we converge :)
2010-12-13 23:38 <wolfspraul> adamwang: Windows (of course :-)) is case insensitive
2010-12-13 23:38 <wolfspraul> but real men don't use such systems
2010-12-13 23:40 <adamwang> hmm..ok
2010-12-13 23:42 <wolfspraul> I'll lower case a few nicks
2010-12-13 23:42 <wolfspraul> fpga
2010-12-13 23:42 <wolfspraul> usb-phy
2010-12-13 23:42 <wolfspraul> spi-flash
2010-12-13 23:43 <wolfspraul> I think '-' is better than space
2010-12-13 23:43 <wolfspraul> ?
2010-12-13 23:43 <wolfspraul> or _? what should we use?
2010-12-13 23:44 <adamwang> agreed, i like. but you want to do now?
2010-12-13 23:44 <wolfspraul> sure, done is done
2010-12-13 23:44 <wolfspraul> we can always learn, reverse, change
2010-12-13 23:44 <wpwrak> space is bad
2010-12-13 23:45 <wpwrak> anything that's a shell meta-character is bad
2010-12-13 23:45 <wpwrak> well, some are embeddable. they're acceptable. e.g., # and { but not ( or &
2010-12-13 23:46 <wolfspraul> do you prefer - or _ instead of space?
2010-12-13 23:46 <wolfspraul> say for usb-phy
2010-12-13 23:46 <wolfspraul> or spi-flash
2010-12-13 23:46 <adamwang> '-'
2010-12-13 23:47 <wpwrak> difficult. i'd lean slightly towards "-"
2010-12-13 23:47 <wpwrak> in ben-wpan/BOOKSHELF, you can see that i'm quite torn between the two :)
2010-12-13 23:48 <wpwrak> ah, and the issue of reporting an error if no BOOKSHELF file is given is best avoided by writing a Makefile :)
2010-12-13 23:49 <wolfspraul> I just notice xue uses a different flash chip from m1
2010-12-13 23:49 <wolfspraul> wondering why and what the differences are
2010-12-13 23:50 <wpwrak> urls ? :)
2010-12-13 23:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: cleaned dsv nicks http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/1d56cbb
2010-12-13 23:50 <wolfspraul> m1: http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/319942_J3-65nm_256-Mbit_MLC%20DS.pdf
2010-12-13 23:51 <wolfspraul> xue: http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/M25P32.pdf
2010-12-13 23:51 <wolfspraul> my #1 worry for Xue is that we basically have a 'random assortment' of chips, but no manpower to get the software to work
2010-12-13 23:51 <wpwrak> a broad mix is also bad for the inventory
2010-12-13 23:51 <adamwang> hmm..
2010-12-13 23:52 <wpwrak> the one in xue is smaller (32 Mbit vs. 256 Mbit)
2010-12-13 23:52 <wolfspraul> so I will be going after every smallest difference to m1, try to understand it, and if I have the feeling nobody will support the software for that difference, we either switch to using the same part as on m1, or I will not produce the board
2010-12-13 23:52 <wolfspraul> want to be very frank from the beginning. I am not interested in producing a board and 2 years later still struggle to boot it.
2010-12-13 23:52 <adamwang> will get pain on my site
2010-12-13 23:53 <wolfspraul> but I'm all positive about this, for differences that have a reason and we have software under control it's OK
2010-12-13 23:53 <wolfspraul> adamwang: you mean the xue flash chip?
2010-12-13 23:53 <wolfspraul> most likely I would think that the way it's addressed and programmed from the fpga is also different
2010-12-13 23:54 <adamwang> umm...we need to ask Andres and listen to him first
2010-12-13 23:54 <wpwrak> xue is also SPI while the other uses a cpu bus
2010-12-13 23:54 <wpwrak> quite different the two
2010-12-13 23:54 <wolfspraul> not surprised to hear that :-)
2010-12-13 23:55 <wolfspraul> like I said - random assortment of chips, worst case
2010-12-13 23:55 <wpwrak> does xue use the jtag adapter of m1 ?
2010-12-13 23:55 <wolfspraul> we need to clear that up
2010-12-13 23:55 <wolfspraul> no, it had to be different
2010-12-13 23:56 <wpwrak> ah, pity
2010-12-13 23:56 <adamwang> if the fpga on Xue  can be reconfigured as m1, and won't have too many changes, we should ask to change.
2010-12-13 23:56 <wolfspraul> no pity, just a bit more work :-)
2010-12-13 23:57 <wolfspraul> I think xue has a ft2232c, whereas m1 uses a ft2232h
2010-12-13 23:58 <wolfspraul> I vaguely remember 'h' = high-speed, but need to check
2010-12-13 23:58 <wpwrak> hmm, xue has two nands. one is spi the other has a NAND bus
2010-12-13 23:58 <wpwrak> the one in MM1 is a NOR
2010-12-13 23:59 <wpwrak> U5 also needs a better "value". "NAND" leaves quite a lot open to interpretation :)