2010-12-09 01:13 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: added parsing of INCH/METRIC in header http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a865854
2010-12-09 01:13 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: detect and report errors when writing to standard output http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b75611a
2010-12-09 01:13 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6f040f6
2010-12-09 01:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6000257
2010-12-09 01:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp: added README and a copy of the GPLv2 http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/c411262
2010-12-09 01:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:cae-tools http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/f6cf2e1
2010-12-09 01:55 <wpwrak_> wolfspraul: hmm, in yesterday's discussion about MM1 you said you plan to slice any dollar you can off the price of MM1. that's very charitable, but isn't this a bit at odds with the idea of finding a sustainable path for making the whole operation self-financing ? :)
2010-12-09 01:56 <kyak> xiangfu: hi! how was your build yesterday?
2010-12-09 01:56 <wolfspraul> wpwrak_: he :-) you become a capitalist? :-)
2010-12-09 01:57 <wolfspraul> I just expressed my general business belief that technology is always on a trajectory to zero. Moore's Law.
2010-12-09 01:58 <wolfspraul> so of course we need to make money, those two things go in parallel I think. bring price down, volumes up.
2010-12-09 02:00 <wpwrak_> (capitalist) heh :) i kinda like the concept of selling new things at as high a price the market will tolerate. i think that's something steve once said. it makes sense. price is probably not the limiting factor at that time anyway, so it's a good moment to recover some of the investment.
2010-12-09 02:01 <wolfspraul> true
2010-12-09 02:01 <wpwrak_> the trajectory for MMn will (hopefully :) be a longish one. also depends a bit on how long this stays in FPGAs.
2010-12-09 02:01 <wolfspraul> that's why M1 will sell for 499 USD plus shipping
2010-12-09 02:01 <wolfspraul> as soon as it's complete, i.e. with a good case
2010-12-09 02:01 <wolfspraul> 499 USD plus shipping is a high price
2010-12-09 02:01 <wolfspraul> but I want to keep it there for 6-12 months
2010-12-09 02:02 <wolfspraul> at that (high) price, unfortunately by the time it reaches someone in Europe, even with a EU distributor, it will be 700 EUR or more
2010-12-09 02:02 <wolfspraul> if we can get things going, after x months the price can (and must) go down, say from 499 to 399
2010-12-09 02:03 <wolfspraul> but that requires a lot of work, more efficient production testing, cheaper case, just streamline the whole process
2010-12-09 02:03 <wpwrak_> alright
2010-12-09 02:03 <xiangfu> kyak: the upstream 'gettext-0.18.1.1' have some error. :(
2010-12-09 02:03 <wpwrak_> efficiency and volume :)
2010-12-09 02:08 <kyak> xiangfu: huh?
2010-12-09 02:08 <kyak> xiangfu: i was wondering, why you removed freedroid from gmenu2x?
2010-12-09 02:10 <xiangfu> kyak: hmm.. it not run correct in my side.
2010-12-09 02:11 <kyak> what do you mean?
2010-12-09 02:11 <xiangfu> kyak: it's always stop at the loading ... screen.
2010-12-09 02:11 <kyak> ah, it's because you don't have swap enabled
2010-12-09 02:12 <kyak> there is a switch to run it without music
2010-12-09 02:12 <kyak> *sound
2010-12-09 02:12 <kyak> then it runs
2010-12-09 02:12 <xiangfu> oh. everytime I 1. add "-q" 2. Ctrl + z, 3 fg. then it's works fine.
2010-12-09 02:13 <xiangfu> since we don't enable the swap by default. so how about remove it form gmenu2x?
2010-12-09 02:13 <kyak> i think it's ok
2010-12-09 02:13 <kyak> too much for Ben :)
2010-12-09 02:19 <kyak> xiangfu: you are right, gettext won't build
2010-12-09 02:26 <xiangfu> kyak: I think we finish move data to openwrt-package.git.  add new packages to config.full_system , add more icons in gmenu2x.
2010-12-09 02:27 <xiangfu> kyak: so I would like start create the new openwrt release.
2010-12-09 02:28 <kyak> xiangfu: i'm still wondering why lynx and fbterm got out of full_system...
2010-12-09 02:29 <xiangfu> me too. we should add them.
2010-12-09 02:29 <xiangfu> I think we should enable package that compile fine in build host (fidelio.qi-hardware.com)
2010-12-09 02:31 <xiangfu> kyak: I will just enable them. then send one email to Mirko. :)
2010-12-09 02:33 <kyak> xiangfu: he will be surprised, i think :)
2010-12-09 02:34 <kyak> xiangfu: is there a bug report already for gettext?
2010-12-09 02:34 <wolfspraul> maybe we can try to find out why it broke for Mirko
2010-12-09 02:35 <wolfspraul> one was missing iconv.h, if I remember correctly
2010-12-09 02:35 <wolfspraul> if it breaks for Mirko, it might also break for others, so the more careful we are the better
2010-12-09 02:35 <wolfspraul> nothing more frustrating that a broken build in a 10+h build process
2010-12-09 02:35 <kyak> wolfspraul: i didn't get any feedback from mirko
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> i think he re-run build and it built fine
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> OH
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> now i remember
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> he built it against 0.9.32
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> and i suggested enabling locale there
2010-12-09 02:36 <xiangfu> yes.  need enable the LOCATE in uclibc.
2010-12-09 02:36 <kyak> but he didn't answer either...
2010-12-09 02:37 <xiangfu> kyak: so far, not bug report in openwrt.
2010-12-09 02:38 <kyak> http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2010-12-02.log.html
2010-12-09 02:38 <kyak> the discussion is almost from the beginning
2010-12-09 02:40 <kyak> xiangfu: http://lists.uclibc.org/pipermail/uclibc/2010-November/044443.html
2010-12-09 02:40 <kyak> looks like our bug
2010-12-09 02:41 <kyak> same line, even
2010-12-09 02:42 <viric> how good is the locale support in openwrt?
2010-12-09 02:42 <kyak> it's zero support in trunk openwrt
2010-12-09 02:42 <kyak> routers, remember?
2010-12-09 02:44 <viric> :)
2010-12-09 02:44 <viric> The GNU locale system, unfortunately, allows locale choosing only at runtime
2010-12-09 02:48 <wolfspraul> kyak: what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
2010-12-09 02:48 <kyak> xiangfu: having a look at that line in gettext, it's strange to me why we even get inside of #  if __GLIBC__ >= 2
2010-12-09 02:49 <kyak> wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
2010-12-09 02:50 <kyak> it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
2010-12-09 02:51 <kyak> routers, remember?
2010-12-09 02:51 <wolfspraul> kyak: sorry, Adobe Flash hung my machine... what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?
2010-12-09 02:52 <kyak> wolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses
2010-12-09 02:52 <kyak> it's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it
2010-12-09 02:53 <viric> I use glibc in nanonixos.
2010-12-09 02:53 <viric> not very optimized to the maximum :)
2010-12-09 02:56 <kyak> Adobe Flash attack -2 :)
2010-12-09 02:56 <wolfspra1l> yeah, crazy
2010-12-09 02:56 <wolfspra1l> should we switch to uclibc 0.9.32 as well?
2010-12-09 02:57 <kyak> heh
2010-12-09 02:57 <kyak> we tried once to switch to uclibc 0.9.32, it didn't work very well
2010-12-09 02:58 <kyak> besides, we are following the backfire branch, not the openwrt trunk
2010-12-09 02:59 <kyak> and it uses 0.9.30.1
2010-12-09 02:59 <viric> why would you want 0.9.32?
2010-12-09 03:00 <kyak> it has that "nptl" support, which breaks things for some applications and fixes for others :)
2010-12-09 03:01 <wolfspraul> ok, following backfire sounds like a strong argument
2010-12-09 03:01 <xiangfu> kyak: I just found there is new branch in openwrt upstream named: uclibc_nptl
2010-12-09 03:01 <kyak> i think mirko just created the remotes/origin/uclibc_nptl, trying to figure out this
2010-12-09 03:01 <kyak> yes :)
2010-12-09 03:02 <kyak> xiangfu: ah, so it came from upstream..
2010-12-09 03:03 <xiangfu> kyak: oh. sorry. not upstream. it's in openwrt-xburst.git
2010-12-09 03:03 <xiangfu> too many remote in local.  :)
2010-12-09 03:03 <kyak> ok :)
2010-12-09 03:07 <xiangfu> kyak: since the code is inside "if __GLIBC__ >= 2",  if we can just disable those code?
2010-12-09 03:08 <kyak> xiangfu: what if it IS build with glibc?
2010-12-09 03:08 <kyak> maybe need to figure out why uclibc pretends to be a glibc :)
2010-12-09 03:09 <kyak> there was no problem with gettext-0.17
2010-12-09 03:09 <xiangfu> kyak: yes. right. that is the root cause.
2010-12-09 03:09 <kyak> maybe need to figure out why this change was introduced..
2010-12-09 03:10 <kyak> i have a feeling that there is not such error when uclibc has locale disabled..
2010-12-09 03:10 <kyak> i doubt someone would commit such crap
2010-12-09 03:11 <xiangfu> kyak: feeds/packages/libs/gettext$ more patches/120-uclibc-nolocale.patch  check this patch
2010-12-09 03:13 <kyak> we have this __UCLIBC_HAS_LOCALE__
2010-12-09 03:14 <kyak> the setlocale function must work
2010-12-09 03:33 <kyak> xiangfu:  i think i found it
2010-12-09 03:33 <kyak> http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-gnulib@gnu.org/msg20551.html
2010-12-09 03:33 <kyak> we should change if __GLIBC__ >= 2 to
2010-12-09 03:33 <kyak> if __GLIBC__ >= 2 && !defined __UCLIBC__
2010-12-09 03:33 <kyak> it's explained why in the link above
2010-12-09 03:34 <kyak> seems like a clean solution to me..
2010-12-09 03:54 <xiangfu> kyak: great.
2010-12-09 03:56 <xiangfu> kyak: testing.
2010-12-09 04:36 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add sdcv icon http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ba2629d
2010-12-09 04:36 <xiangfu> kyak: it compile fine. let's see how the build going. :)
2010-12-09 04:37 <kyak> xiangfu: note the ../libtool: line 46: -c: command not found strange line before it.. i don't know if this might cause problems as well
2010-12-09 04:37 <xiangfu> kyak: there are a lot of them.
2010-12-09 04:37 <kyak> xiangfu: have to go now.. good luck to you :)
2010-12-09 04:40 <xiangfu> kyak: see you.
2010-12-09 04:40 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: Revert "disable fbterm and lynx, since they do not compile... latter one should be easy to fix (missing iconv.h)" http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6862ea4
2010-12-09 04:40 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system add wtime http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a9fb2d
2010-12-09 04:55 <wolfspraul> Ornotermes: you mentioned one area Xue could be good for is 'time lapse'. What do you mean?
2010-12-09 04:56 <Ornotermes> when one take series of pictures over a long time and then play them back as a video
2010-12-09 04:56 <Ornotermes> growing plants is a common example
2010-12-09 04:56 <wolfspraul> oh you mean like a picture every 10 minutes, and then play them at 15 fps or so?
2010-12-09 04:58 <Ornotermes> yes
2010-12-09 04:58 <wolfspraul> ok got it
2010-12-09 04:58 <Ornotermes> but with an xue it could easy me weeks or months
2010-12-09 05:00 <wolfspraul> wait let me add this to the 'use cases' in the wiki...
2010-12-09 05:03 <wolfspraul> Ornotermes: added to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xu%C3%A9#Use_Cases
2010-12-09 05:04 <wolfspraul> (also the hot mirror thing you mentioned to me)
2010-12-09 05:04 <wolfspraul> bbiab
2010-12-09 05:32 <wolfspraul> Ornotermes: back :-) so yeah, thanks for those use cases, if you have more things in mind for Xue, please share with us...
2010-12-09 05:35 <Ornotermes> wolfspraul: it could probably be programmed to take HDR-pictures with a single button klick
2010-12-09 05:42 <Ornotermes> wolfspraul: if there is GPIO left it could be built to use external triggers, like laser triggers
2010-12-09 05:43 <wolfspraul> no worries about that, we have an entire 50-pin header wired up from the fpga
2010-12-09 05:44 <Ornotermes> nice :)
2010-12-09 09:04 <qwebirc57237> Hello. Who can tell me where i can get "Jz4725B Programming Manual". I really need it :(
2010-12-09 09:05 <qwebirc57237> I asked wolfgang, but he still not reply to me...
2010-12-09 09:05 <qwebirc57237> http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2009-September.txt <-
2010-12-09 09:06 <wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: too many mails, sorry I'm a little behind
2010-12-09 09:12 <wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: you there?
2010-12-09 09:13 <qwebirc57237> yep)
2010-12-09 09:13 <wolfspraul> qwebirc57237: email me again at wolfgang@sharism.cc
2010-12-09 09:14 <qwebirc57237> ok, one sec..
2010-12-09 09:17 <qwebirc57237> done
2010-12-09 11:58 <kristianpaul> is  scripts/feeds update -a and scripts/feeds install -a comparable to cp data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf ./  && make package/symlinks ?
2010-12-09 11:58 <kristianpaul> i said because i compiled and got missing some packages using just cp ... and make package/symlinks
2010-12-09 12:07 <kristianpaul> ahh same error http://paste.debian.net/101989/
2010-12-09 12:08 <kristianpaul> Any ne had sucefully compiled last xburst owrt ?
2010-12-09 12:08 <kristianpaul> s/ne/one
2010-12-09 12:23 <kyak> you need data/files & config.full_system
2010-12-09 12:23 <kyak> feeds.conf is just a list of feeds to use
2010-12-09 12:24 <kyak> needed both for feeds update -a && feeds install -a and make package/symlinks that are basically the same
2010-12-09 12:24 <kyak> kristianpaul: btw, these instructions are on wiki
2010-12-09 13:37 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: qstardict: disable mouse, fit Setting dialogue to 320x240 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5d704f5
2010-12-09 14:20 <kristianpaul> kyak: http://paste.debian.net/101989/ did you saw this error before?
2010-12-09 16:21 <Ornotermes> any one know what the parts in ben cost?
2010-12-09 16:22 <wpwrak_> Ornotermes: this list has some prices: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory
2010-12-09 16:23 <Ornotermes> thanks
2010-12-09 16:28 <Ornotermes> the price is for that many as there is in stock right?
2010-12-09 16:29 <wpwrak_> i would guess it's for the quantity that was last bought (into that stock), but i don't really know.
2010-12-09 16:29 <Ornotermes> then it's not of too big use... i think
2010-12-09 16:30 <Ornotermes> i was thinking what a bare ben pcb would cost
2010-12-09 16:30 <wpwrak_> i'm not even sure these prices have anything to do with the actual component cost for the ben. i.e., i don't know if wolfgang buys parts and gives them to the manufacturers or if the manufacturers buy (all or some of) the parts themselves.
2010-12-09 16:30 <Ornotermes> no case or lcm
2010-12-09 16:30 <Ornotermes> ok
2010-12-09 16:31 <wpwrak_> case and lcm may not add a lot to the price, compared to the extra cost of bundling a separate product
2010-12-09 16:32 <wpwrak_> but i guess you'd have to ask wolfgang if he has any spare boards he'd like to sell
2010-12-09 16:32 <Ornotermes> i was thinking what it would cost to make someting lake a linux powered arduino
2010-12-09 16:33 <wpwrak_> hmm, like SIE ? :)
2010-12-09 16:34 <Ornotermes> but in the same shape and size as an arduino mega 2560
2010-12-09 16:35 <Ornotermes> or even a regular arduino
2010-12-09 16:36 <wpwrak_> why the same shape/size ?
2010-12-09 16:38 <Ornotermes> i don't really know what to answer to that :P
2010-12-09 16:39 <Ornotermes> but i think that would be the shat that would be easiest to market
2010-12-09 16:39 <Ornotermes> s/shat/shape
2010-12-09 16:42 <Ornotermes> and there is a lot of different shields to add anyting from leds to network
2010-12-09 16:43 <wpwrak_> dunno. it's a considerably more powerful system ...
2010-12-09 16:43 <wpwrak_> oh, the shields may be difficult. different voltage domains and all that
2010-12-09 16:43 <Ornotermes> good point
2010-12-09 16:44 <Ornotermes> but i would like a small and cheap linux module to build in to different things
2010-12-09 16:49 <wpwrak_> sie shouldn't be too bad for that. if you want simpler, you can use a ben plus breakout board
2010-12-09 16:50 <Ornotermes> sie looks a bit expencive
2010-12-09 16:51 <Ornotermes> i don't know how realistic it is but i was thinking less than 50 USD
2010-12-09 16:51 <wpwrak_> dunno how cheap one can make it. besides the fpga, most things on it are stuff you'd want/need anyway.
2010-12-09 16:51 <wpwrak_> usd 50 definitely without fpga :)
2010-12-09 16:52 <Ornotermes> i have ssen many linux mudules but they usually are to expencive for building in to a single project
2010-12-09 16:54 <wpwrak_> well, you have the ben as s bottom line. there's a lot you can do with that already ...
2010-12-09 16:54 <Ornotermes> thats why i wonder what just pcbs cost
2010-12-09 16:55 <Ornotermes> bot ofcource all that flash is a bit overkill
2010-12-09 16:56 <wpwrak_> just the ben board would look a little odd. keyboard contacts on the top without a keyboard. connectors at seemingly random places. no holes for feet/standoffs. etc.
2010-12-09 16:58 <wpwrak_> your most economical choice might be to just use a ben and make a nice breakout board that connects to your circuit.
2010-12-09 16:58 <Ornotermes> yes, but the price might give a good idea what it would cost to make another board with similar components
2010-12-09 16:58 <wpwrak_> at what quantity ? :)
2010-12-09 16:59 <Ornotermes> i don't know, but i guess one would have to calculate on 1000
2010-12-09 17:00 <wpwrak_> that's very little. your "simplified" board would probably be more expensive than a ben.
2010-12-09 17:00 <wpwrak_> the ben is priced for something like 3000 units.
2010-12-09 17:00 <Ornotermes> oh, ok
2010-12-09 17:01 <wpwrak_> mass production pricing is tricky :)
2010-12-09 17:01 <Ornotermes> indeed
2010-12-09 17:02 <wpwrak_> i think wolfgang is sitting on something like 800+ bens. all tested, boxed, ready to ship. so i think any plan to put these to good use would be welcome :)
2010-12-09 17:03 <wpwrak_> each existing ben sold means money. each potential reduced ben sold means yet another big upfront investment first.
2010-12-09 17:03 <Ornotermes> yeah
2010-12-09 17:05 <Ornotermes> to bad one can't make use och all interesting buses
2010-12-09 17:05 <Ornotermes> use of*
2010-12-09 17:06 <wpwrak_> yes, that's really a pity
2010-12-09 17:47 <lekernel> good. Ron is taking the troll bait on LibreWRT
2010-12-09 17:47 <lekernel> hahaha
2010-12-09 17:49 <wpwrak_> lekernel: they're asking for "feedback". there's your opportunity ;-)
2010-12-09 17:50 <lekernel> ha, no, tonight i'm busy playing with the video input on milkymist
2010-12-09 17:50 <lekernel> which works really great btw :)
2010-12-09 17:51 <lekernel> librewrt discussions (or developments I'd even say hahaha) are fun but don't get anything done
2010-12-09 17:52 <wpwrak_> (video in) sounds nice. what can it do ?
2010-12-09 17:53 <wpwrak_> (librewrt) it does seem a bit redundant, doesn't it ? particularly since openwrt already has that famous PATENT flag
2010-12-09 17:54 <wpwrak_> but i guess for every level of political correctness, there's still another one where people would be quite shocked about your standards ...
2010-12-09 17:54 <wpwrak_> i'm almost tempted to reply to ron :)
2010-12-09 18:05 <lekernel> stuff like http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=visikord
2010-12-09 18:09 <wpwrak_> heh, i like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lrm0QDbRAc&NR=1
2010-12-09 18:14 <lekernel> yeah, we're getting there :)
2010-12-09 18:15 <wpwrak_> of course, this one looks better :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEyqSMlyRY&NR=1
2010-12-09 18:15 <wpwrak_> (also works better by not trying to match the timing)
2010-12-09 18:15 <lekernel> ha, I use that one in talks to keep people focused ;)
2010-12-09 18:16 <wpwrak_> focused on what ? ;-)
2010-12-09 19:07 <kristianpaul> (video in) wow looks awesome
2010-12-09 19:08 <kristianpaul> i dint knewt VJ do that btw
2010-12-09 19:08 <kristianpaul> i always tought about keyboard..
2010-12-09 19:08 <kristianpaul> cool
2010-12-09 19:10 <kristianpaul> lekernel: what kind of video camera arrangement are you using?
2010-12-09 19:26 <kristianpaul> ohh this is new qi-wolfgang
2010-12-09 19:30 <wpwrak_> the other, the submarine captain ;-)