2010-11-27 00:33 <ss547> i had problm with my pc
2010-11-27 02:50 <wpwrak> heh, this time i found the piranha ratio - 3 rounds of etching in just 20 minutes. watch this, iron(III) chloride ! :)
2010-11-27 02:56 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-11-27 04:27 <viric> wpwrak: I'd like to learn to make my own PCBs by chemicals... can you recommend any book about that, covering different techniques?
2010-11-27 06:57 <wpwrak> viric: not sure if there are books ...
2010-11-27 07:00 <wpwrak> viric: this document has some of the process i used a few years ago: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/led-toy/ledtoy-building-0pre9.pdf
2010-11-27 07:03 <viric> thank you!
2010-11-27 07:03 <viric> I'll read it.
2010-11-27 07:04 <wpwrak> viric: what has changed since: i usually cut pcbs with a CNC mill, i use a different acid, i usually use a laminator for toner transfer instead of an iron, i now use lead-free and better flux (different temperatures, different cleaning process, etc.), i use smaller components (different process)
2010-11-27 07:05 <wpwrak> (smaller comp) well, different soldering technique. depends a bit on on the type of component. back then, i thought SSOP and 0603  were the smallest i could handle :)
2010-11-27 07:07 <viric> :)
2010-11-27 07:08 <wpwrak> viric: ah yes, and the dual-sided process has a variant now that's more accurate but also slower :)
2010-11-27 07:08 <viric> and you learnt from where?
2010-11-27 07:08 <wpwrak> the internet and experimenting :)
2010-11-27 07:08 <viric> aha, ok
2010-11-27 07:08 <viric> I have some friends who master some of those techniques
2010-11-27 07:08 <viric> I'll also ask them
2010-11-27 07:09 <wpwrak> the toner transfer method is explained in great detail on the net. the reference is in the document
2010-11-27 07:10 <wpwrak> ah, another process variant: instead of acetone, which can be difficult to get, i now use paint thinner most of the time
2010-11-27 07:13 <viric> ah ok
2010-11-27 07:13 <viric> acetone is difficult to get nowadays?
2010-11-27 07:13 <viric> I did not know
2010-11-27 07:26 <viric> Does anybody know of a voip phone with open hardware?
2010-11-27 07:27 <viric> not a mobile phone
2010-11-27 08:13 <kristianpaul> viric: close i know in mesh potatoe, not sure how open hardware is, but seems is a bit
2010-11-27 09:11 <viric> kristianpaul: 'in mesh potatoe'?
2010-11-27 09:12 <viric> la malla patata?
2010-11-27 09:12 <viric> ah I found about it.
2010-11-27 09:21 <viric> the mesh potato looks great. thank you!
2010-11-27 09:46 <viric> wpwrak: I like a lot your ledtoy-building :) thank you very much!
2010-11-27 09:48 <wpwrak> you're welcome :)
2010-11-27 11:46 <kristianpaul> Is this a fifo http://paste.debian.net/100897/ ?
2010-11-27 11:46 <kristianpaul> how horrible is C++ sintax :(
2010-11-27 11:47 <kristianpaul> well not so, but this ok keep in mind object oriented thing is something i'm not used to
2010-11-27 11:55 <kristianpaul> ok.. a struct made of other struct.. http://paste.debian.net/100900/
2010-11-27 11:58 <wpwrak> eh ?
2010-11-27 11:59 <kristianpaul> he i may be wrong, just gettting used to C++ codying style ,-)
2010-11-27 11:59 <larsc> thats C ;)
2010-11-27 11:59 <kristianpaul> ah?
2010-11-27 11:59 <wpwrak> looks pretty c-ish so far. you haven't touched the hells of C++ yet :)
2010-11-27 12:00 <kristianpaul> ohh
2010-11-27 12:00 <kristianpaul> is not .cpp C++ related?
2010-11-27 12:01 <kristianpaul> what is the purpose of a struct in C, i tought i wast just used in OO programing
2010-11-27 12:01 <viric> the purpose of a struct in C? :)
2010-11-27 12:02 <wpwrak> a struct provides structure :)
2010-11-27 12:02 <wpwrak> "oo" is a sound programmers make when experiencing pain
2010-11-27 12:02 <viric> hehe
2010-11-27 12:03 <viric> kristianpaul: programming science developed some abstractions over linear memory, since some time ago
2010-11-27 12:03 <kristianpaul> yeah :), but.. is like like create a new type of variable?
2010-11-27 12:04 <kristianpaul> reads wikipedia
2010-11-27 12:05 <viric> there are even more abstractions beyond 'int'
2010-11-27 12:07 <wpwrak> bah, void * and __asm__ is all you need :)
2010-11-27 12:07 <viric> if talking about 'needs', yes :)
2010-11-27 12:07 <kristianpaul> oh thre is a fftw implementation in asm? ;)
2010-11-27 12:08 <kristianpaul> s/thre/there
2010-11-27 12:08 <viric> part of the humanity (although little) have the chance to go beyond 'needs' tohugh
2010-11-27 12:15 <kristianpaul> damn i'm ignorant in C :/
2010-11-27 12:15 <viric> That is a good start, for learning! :)
2010-11-27 12:17 <viric> Does the nanonote 'reboot' well?
2010-11-27 12:18 <viric> I mean... I got "halp -pf" finally powering off
2010-11-27 12:18 <kristianpaul> halp?
2010-11-27 12:18 <viric> halt
2010-11-27 12:18 <viric> :)
2010-11-27 12:18 <viric> halt -p does not power off though
2010-11-27 12:18 <kristianpaul> oh i was scare for a while
2010-11-27 12:18 <kristianpaul> what about init?
2010-11-27 12:19 <viric> sysvinit
2010-11-27 12:19 <viric> # runlevel
2010-11-27 12:19 <viric> 3 6
2010-11-27 12:20 <viric> started at 3, now at 6.
2010-11-27 12:20 <viric> (notice dropbear still has my shell open)
2010-11-27 12:23 <kristianpaul> oh is a collection
2010-11-27 12:23 <kristianpaul> better ilustrated in a cartesian plot
2010-11-27 12:33 <viric> :D
2010-11-27 12:34 <viric> it only shows the 'start' and the current
2010-11-27 15:34 <kristianpaul> aahh int16t is prefered because MMS/SSE use it
2010-11-27 15:35 <kristianpaul> ben simd uses same?..
2010-11-27 15:47 <kristianpaul> hmm what happen if for now i just ignore Imaginary part..
2010-11-27 16:14 <wpwrak_> your bandwidth drops by 50% ?
2010-11-27 16:52 <wpwrak_> kristianpaul: but why do you want to optimize now ? have you already decoded some samples ?
2010-11-27 17:25 <kristianpaul> wpwrak_: no, i'm impplementing verilog module to be loaded ina memory buffer then dumped to the nand,
2010-11-27 17:25 <kristianpaul> ok not optimize now :)
2010-11-27 17:27 <kristianpaul> wpwrak_: actually bandwich is same, i still usign an int8_t or int16_t
2010-11-27 17:27 <kristianpaul> just less bits filled
2010-11-27 17:33 <wpwrak_> (bw) what I mean is that, if you drop the imaginary part, this is equivalent to sampling at half the rate
2010-11-27 17:33 <wpwrak_> well, more or less equivalent, i guess :)
2010-11-27 17:34 <wpwrak_> do you already have suitable algorithms for processing Q/I data ? or do you have to design them yourself ?
2010-11-27 17:42 <kristianpaul> gps-sdr is my first guide
2010-11-27 17:42 <kristianpaul> i just documenting my self to make data wasy to be intepreted ny this software
2010-11-27 17:43 <kristianpaul> whoa ! i have a mail from then, since monday, (about some questions i made) lets see
2010-11-27 17:44 <kristianpaul> other similar projects (with closed hardware stuff) use it
2010-11-27 17:44 <kristianpaul> so i decide follow since at least the prove it that can be forked
2010-11-27 17:45 <kristianpaul> jsut for this step in wich i just plan use SIE as front end to the SiGE EVB
2010-11-27 17:45 <wpwrak_> so the algorithms they have look usable to you ? i.e., they have the right data format and so on ? (or if they don't, you know how to convert between the format you have and theirs ?)
2010-11-27 17:48 <kristianpaul> (if they don't,) i find out how to format the data
2010-11-27 17:48 <kristianpaul> i'm findig*
2010-11-27 17:48 <kristianpaul> whoa looks this project, thats stuuf that google dint tell in the first page ;) http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/namuru/
2010-11-27 17:50 <wpwrak_> big board with big antennas :)
2010-11-27 17:51 <wpwrak_> ah o, they're shields. better ;)
2010-11-27 17:55 <kristianpaul> well it was a link froma reply from one sdr-gps developer wich is aware i'm using fpga stuff
2010-11-27 18:02 <kristianpaul> ah tricky why use 2 bits sign/magn if from the posible  4 results 2 have no sense (+0, -0) so the other SiGE chip just used 1 bit for phase and qautrautre !
2010-11-27 18:02 <kristianpaul> s/qautrautre/quadrature
2010-11-27 18:03 <wpwrak_> 0 does seem to convey information. +/- seems wasteful, though
2010-11-27 18:04 <kristianpaul> yeah but i ditn get that the week before, and was strugling because it
2010-11-27 18:05 <wpwrak_> so you basically have three deltas encoded in two bits: -quantum, no change, +qantum, right ?
2010-11-27 18:05 <kristianpaul> yes
2010-11-27 18:06 <wpwrak_> kewl, i understood something :)
2010-11-27 18:06 <kristianpaul> ?
2010-11-27 18:06 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-11-27 18:07 <kristianpaul> no change is tricky (i dint get how will help me)
2010-11-27 18:07 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-11-27 18:12 <wpwrak_> do you feed the data directly into the FFT or do you integrate first ?
2010-11-27 18:14 <kristianpaul> good question :)
2010-11-27 18:14 <kristianpaul> that a BIG doubt i have
2010-11-27 18:14 <kristianpaul> FFT can handle of course real and imaginary data
2010-11-27 18:15 <kristianpaul> at least a book i have said that, but i'm not aware of how gps-sdr handle it
2010-11-27 18:15 <kristianpaul> i'll ask that to the developer :)
2010-11-27 18:16 <wpwrak_> maybe try to find some example of anything that uses a sign/magnitude stream and see what they do with it ?
2010-11-27 18:17 <wpwrak_> could be that there's also some other kind of filtering or stuff you can do first. just integrating seems a bit wasteful. e.g., there may be useful phase information in the high-rate bitstream.
2010-11-27 18:18 <wpwrak_> there's also something called decimation. that's also a rate reduction. the USRP uses it quite heavily. (as in "you must decimate or it won't work") i haven't investigated that yet, though :)
2010-11-27 18:24 <kristianpaul> ha i need calculate or get from somwhere a itnermediate frequency
2010-11-27 18:25 <kristianpaul> but i just have filter centre freq and bandwich..
2010-11-27 18:25 <kristianpaul> ok, there is a radio eng aroudn?
2010-11-27 18:25 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-11-27 18:25 <wpwrak_> would be kinda useful for me, too :)
2010-11-27 18:26 <wpwrak_> eventually, i figure out everything i need by myself, but a quick answer sometimes beats weeks of trial and error :)
2010-11-27 18:26 <kristianpaul> hope wolfgang read this log :)
2010-11-27 18:27 <kristianpaul> wpwrak_: (weeks of trial and error) totally agree
2010-11-27 18:33 <kristianpaul> well i my case read read and confuse then re-read to getter the idea and read again,
2010-11-27 18:33 <kristianpaul> but i'm close to start trail and error
2010-11-27 18:40 <wpwrak_> the read-confuse-read-... cycle is also a good one ;-)
2010-11-27 18:50 <kristianpaul> s/trail/trial
2010-11-27 19:02 <kristianpaul> http://www.dynamics.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=9  This fully functional GPS receiver design can provide 12 or more channels of parallel tracking hardware and software.
2010-11-27 19:03 <kristianpaul> wpwrak_: ^ well if the antenna is big looks good anyway :)
2010-11-27 19:03 <kristianpaul> 12 channels is heacy my current closed source gps cant handle more than 8, with the test i made
2010-11-27 19:05 <kristianpaul> ha Zarlink is SiGE competitor
2010-11-27 19:06 <kristianpaul> i'll enjoy GPS reading this week :)
2010-11-27 19:06 <kristianpaul> http://www.zarlink.com/zarlink/hs/82_GP2015.htm <-  Application Notes :O
2010-11-27 19:08 <wpwrak_> monster circuits :)
2010-11-27 19:09 <kristianpaul> mosnter in wich sense?
2010-11-27 19:12 <wpwrak_> (zarlink) also sign/mag. but simpler protocol - no SYNC
2010-11-27 19:12 <wpwrak_> (monster) lot of stuff on these boards
2010-11-27 19:12 <kristianpaul> yeah i noticed no SYNC :/
2010-11-27 19:12 <kristianpaul> lots stuff indeed :)
2010-11-27 19:13 <kristianpaul> ha they sell a "GPS Receiver Baseband Processor"
2010-11-27 19:13 <kristianpaul> i wonder why still usign to separate chips
2010-11-27 19:18 <kristianpaul> ah got my answer here http://gps.psas.pdx.edu/
2010-11-27 19:19 <kristianpaul> may be that the GP4020 chipset isn't going to be available for a long time
2010-11-27 19:19 <kristianpaul> quuoting^
2010-11-27 19:20 <wpwrak_> yeah. there may simply be no sufficient economical incentive to integrate everything into once chip. depends on their customers and technical capabilities.
2010-11-27 19:31 <kristianpaul> http://oscar.dcarr.org/ssrp/index.php
2010-11-27 19:40 <kristianpaul> Namuru V2 GPS receiver without IMU $4,620.00 USD !!
2010-11-27 19:40 <kristianpaul> WHAT?
2010-11-27 19:40 <kristianpaul> then you get the sources
2010-11-27 19:40 <kristianpaul> ha
2010-11-27 19:45 <kristianpaul> well if is GPL/BSD anyw ay is okay they are not pushed to make stuuf public
2010-11-27 19:45 <kristianpaul> stuff*
2010-11-27 20:05 <kristianpaul> "--prefix=/usr" <. que peligro
2010-11-27 20:05 <kristianpaul> para eso iventaron /opt ..
2010-11-27 20:05 <kristianpaul> en fin
2010-11-27 20:07 <kristianpaul> oops
2010-11-27 20:31 <kristianpaul> (decimation) not for me i dont want deal with more downsampling processes..
2010-11-27 20:32 <kristianpaul> [the USRP uses it quite heavily. (as in "you must decimate or it won't work")] wow, i wonder why and in wich step is used
2010-11-27 20:33 <kristianpaul> may be i wont work on some not so FAST computers?
2010-11-27 20:33 <kristianpaul> missing 8 cores and 8Gb in ram? :)
2010-11-27 20:35 <kristianpaul> ah wait
2010-11-27 20:35 <kristianpaul> "D set = decimate (1 bit instead of 2)"
2010-11-27 20:35 <wpwrak_> naw, the ADC produces 100 MSa/s, but you can only transfer about 25 MSa/s to the PC. that's why you need to decimate by at least 4.
2010-11-27 20:35 <kristianpaul> is what i commented before about 2bits are not needed
2010-11-27 20:36 <wpwrak_> 1 Sample = 2 * 16 bits, so 25 MSa/s = 800 Mbps
2010-11-27 20:36 <kristianpaul> yes make sense
2010-11-27 20:36 <wpwrak_> decimation works on the complex value and still gives complex as a result. there's no escape ;-)
2010-11-27 20:39 <kristianpaul> tell me more if you found something more about it, looks intersting
2010-11-27 20:50 <kristianpaul> oh you meant hacked in the good sense?
2010-11-27 20:50 <kristianpaul> oops
2010-11-27 20:50 <kristianpaul> damn irssi windows
2010-11-27 20:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: vialtray: make a tray for vials containing 0402/0603 components (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1d72af7
2010-11-27 20:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libbb: library for bit-banging the Ben's uSD port (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/458702c
2010-11-27 20:55 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: vialtray: ready for first test run (on-going) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/649e00b
2010-11-27 23:30 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: vialtray: more parameter adjustments http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1d24b2e