2010-11-22 02:21 viric: hia! are you there? 2010-11-22 02:45 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add wget, nfs-utils, netcat http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/de462b9 2010-11-22 03:00 kyak: yes 2010-11-22 03:04 viric: since you are the only known qemu expert to me, let me ask you some questions :) 2010-11-22 03:05 first of all, i decided to start with a regular ext2 image as a rootfs.. i did dd, mke2fs, mounted image, copied rootfs files there - this stage had no problem i think 2010-11-22 03:06 then i append root=/dev/hda, but qemu outputs some weird messages about "pgrep: No matching criteria specified" 2010-11-22 03:07 and then thereis kernel panic 2010-11-22 03:07 my roots is mounted fine as i see above from kernel output 2010-11-22 03:08 what do you think it could be? 2010-11-22 03:08 can you paste the log? 2010-11-22 03:09 sure, one sec 2010-11-22 03:12 http://pastebin.mandriva.com/21304 2010-11-22 03:12 (i terminate qemu manually at the end) 2010-11-22 03:21 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [new package] ctronome, programmable console metronome software http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/663b894 2010-11-22 03:29 kyak: what rootfs you using ? 2010-11-22 03:29 kyak: maybe the kernel is not calling 'init' properly 2010-11-22 03:29 kyak: you may need to pass init= to the cmdline 2010-11-22 03:29 it looks like calling pgrep instead of init. How, I don't know :) 2010-11-22 03:30 xiangfu: i use staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/root-xburst/* 2010-11-22 03:30 viric: ok, lemme check 2010-11-22 03:30 what troubles me though is that there's staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/root-xburst/init and staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/root-xburst/sbin/init 2010-11-22 03:31 two different files 2010-11-22 03:31 viric: btw, i tryed to remove the pgrep from rootfs - didn't help :) 2010-11-22 03:31 kyak: by default openwrt kernel will only try "/etc/preinit" 2010-11-22 03:31 i even tryed to remove init 2010-11-22 03:31 nothing had changed 2010-11-22 03:31 xiangfu: it's malta kernel 2010-11-22 03:32 kyak: ok. 2010-11-22 03:32 set init=/etc/preinit 2010-11-22 03:32 the one qemu has support for 2010-11-22 03:32 if it's what openwrt meant to be as init 2010-11-22 03:33 init=/etc/preinit made the pgrep error go away 2010-11-22 03:33 now i have just "Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init!" 2010-11-22 03:41 What is that 'init'? busybox init? 2010-11-22 03:41 Do you have /dev/console in the filesystem? 2010-11-22 03:42 init is a link to busybox 2010-11-22 03:42 thereis not /dev/console. isn't it created automatically? 2010-11-22 03:42 no 2010-11-22 03:42 You need to become root and 'mknod' the files into the filesystem, or use a 'device table' :) 2010-11-22 03:43 at the time of making the filesystem 2010-11-22 03:43 strange.. i thought  all files in /dev are created automatically 2010-11-22 03:43 during boot 2010-11-22 03:43 kyak: well, you need a minimum of them 2010-11-22 03:43 kyak: /dev/console *only*, in fact. 2010-11-22 03:43 or init will die. 2010-11-22 03:43 ok, will create it now 2010-11-22 03:43 mkfs.ext2 does not allow for a device table though. You'll have to become root, mount the fs and mknod it 2010-11-22 03:46 cd dev; mknod console c 5 1 2010-11-22 03:47 didn't help -\ 2010-11-22 03:49 i wonder why it dies silently... almost impossible to debug 2010-11-22 03:54 maybe /dev/console is not enough 2010-11-22 03:54 let me check... 2010-11-22 03:58 I can't find my notes about that 2010-11-22 03:58 I recall only /dev/console 2010-11-22 04:00 i wonder how does openwrt boot if it doesn't have those 2010-11-22 04:06 kyak: it should have those. you may have done something wrong in the ext2 2010-11-22 04:06 :) 2010-11-22 04:07 i'll try unpacking the rootfs.tar.gz now instead of copying those files from root-xburst 2010-11-22 04:07 use 'p' on unpacking 2010-11-22 04:07 and '-a' if you copy 2010-11-22 04:07 mkey 2010-11-22 04:07 i unpack as root anyway 2010-11-22 04:08 http://svn.dslinux.in-berlin.de/viewvc/dslinux/trunk/user/mtd-utils/device_table.txt?view=markup&sortby=file 2010-11-22 04:08 kyak: sure, as root, but use those. 2010-11-22 04:08 will do 2010-11-22 04:08 that device_table.txt says what I have in /dev 2010-11-22 04:08 Maybe you need /dev/null to? 2010-11-22 04:08 too 2010-11-22 04:09 i'll create all of those if they are not in tar.gz 2010-11-22 04:09 kyak: check "root-xburst/lib/preinit/*" which exec by /etc/preinit of openwrt. 2010-11-22 04:09 now I think console and null are the needed. :) 2010-11-22 04:10 s/exec/execute 2010-11-22 04:11 xiangfu: hm.. an amount of scripts there.. i assume some of them fails? 2010-11-22 04:11 ok, the /dev in tar.gz is empty,  too 2010-11-22 04:11 make console and null 2010-11-22 04:13 hey-hey-hey!! 2010-11-22 04:13 it worked! 2010-11-22 04:13 Linux BenNanoNote 2.6.36-20850-gace61dc #1 SMP Mon Nov 22 09:43:21 MSK 2010 mips GNU/Linux 2010-11-22 04:14 Ha! :) 2010-11-22 04:14 viric: thanks :) 2010-11-22 04:14 All this is full of non trivialities I had once to defeat :) 2010-11-22 04:14 now that you know all I know, go and spread it! 2010-11-22 04:14 viric: oh, i created the /dev/null in case you didn't understand :) 2010-11-22 04:15 I know I know 2010-11-22 04:15 i think some of those preinit script create these files 2010-11-22 04:15 I was almost sure 'null' had to be there 2010-11-22 04:15 but maybe they fail 2010-11-22 04:15 I think that without /dev/console, the kernel cannot run the init 2010-11-22 04:16 maybe it needs null too. 2010-11-22 04:16 yes please, write it up on some wiki page... 2010-11-22 04:16 now, the thing i wanted to do for a long time 2010-11-22 04:16 I mean that maybe it's not up to 'init', but up to the kernel 2010-11-22 04:18 compare gcc speed on real Ben and on emulated Ben :) 2010-11-22 04:18 though that malta board is slower than Ben 2010-11-22 04:38 kyak: I don't think qemu is emulating the 'slowness' haha 2010-11-22 04:38 kyak: how much ram you use there? 2010-11-22 04:49 xiangfu: having jtag access to the xburst cpu is only a matter of wiring on the board? 2010-11-22 04:53 viric: the JTAG signals should all be accessible on test points 2010-11-22 04:53 viric: not sure what the software support side looks like, though 2010-11-22 04:54 viric: what would you use it for ? i've been looking for a strong reason to support jtag in idbg, but haven't found one so far 2010-11-22 04:54 viric: I think so. 2010-11-22 04:58 wpwrak: I think openocd has files for it 2010-11-22 04:58 for xburst... 2010-11-22 04:58 wpwrak: not one? attaching a gdb to the kernel is nice. :) 2010-11-22 04:58 wpwrak: I used that to debug a kernel failing to boot on the sheevaplug 2010-11-22 04:59 with such a developed kernel, maybe now is not needed. 2010-11-22 05:00 I think that the nanonote community now has few people having even their own build kernels 2010-11-22 05:00 so few deal with kernel related trouble (like kyak felt some minutes ago in qemu) 2010-11-22 05:02 viric: (only few people) yeah, that's true 2010-11-22 05:03 viric: i remember from the OM days that the main use of JTAG there was to do the initial NAND load of the system. but we don't need JTAG for this on the ben 2010-11-22 05:03 wpwrak: ah, I was supposing the processor jtag would allow for breakpoints and things like that 2010-11-22 05:04 viric: in OM, i hardly ever used JTAG to debug kernel problems. maybe 2-3 times. the tricky ones were often in the suspend/resume path anyway, which conflicted with JTAG 2010-11-22 05:04 oh 2010-11-22 05:04 viric: yes, breakpoints and all that should be there 2010-11-22 05:06 viric: (OM) another problem was of course that, in addition to the general fragility of openocd, our debug board had reliability of its own. so many times, trying to jtag meant to spend half the day just fighting reticent infrastructure. 2010-11-22 05:06 ah 2010-11-22 05:08 viric: on the ben, we could at least overcome the hardware side of the unreliability. at least i don't see wolfgang or adam add a cute little fpc with external debug board anytime soon ;-) 2010-11-22 05:09 fpc? 2010-11-22 05:10 flat plastic cable / flexible printed circuit 2010-11-22 05:10 or, in this case, more accurately, "fragile piece of crap" :) 2010-11-22 05:11 wpwrak: you've asked about boom timing the other day 2010-11-22 05:11 Adam is making good progress on Milkymist One RC2, so maybe in 3 weeks or so that project could wrap up 2010-11-22 05:11 there are still details like power adapter, jtag-serial board, case 2010-11-22 05:11 so maybe add a week or two 2010-11-22 05:11 but right after that I will start with Xue, and I think first of all that means the boomification 2010-11-22 05:12 viric: it really had everything: excessive manufacturing tolerances, material fatigue on the connectors at both ends, easily triggered fatal failure modes (breakage) on both ends, hairline cracks in the cable itself, ... 2010-11-22 05:12 wolfspraul: (boom timing) excellent ! that'll work very well 2010-11-22 05:12 another item on my todo list is to add some more command lines to KiCad, similar to your --plot, but for layout generation, and bom .lst file generation, etc. 2010-11-22 05:12 I should also get to that in December hopefully 2010-11-22 05:13 wolfspraul: ah, ready to face the C++ dragon ? :) 2010-11-22 05:13 no worries 2010-11-22 05:13 yes, ready 2010-11-22 05:13 remember my past as a paid coder 2010-11-22 05:14 once upon a time I had the passion, energy, enthousiasm to read entire Stroutroup books cover to cover, trying to understand every detail of that language 2010-11-22 05:14 that bastard stole my youth :-) 2010-11-22 05:14 ;-))) 2010-11-22 05:14 seriously 2010-11-22 05:14 now we know where old bitter coders come from :) 2010-11-22 05:14 determined, not bitter 2010-11-22 05:15 FOCUS 2010-11-22 05:15 that's what you learn from C++ 2010-11-22 05:15 :-) 2010-11-22 05:15 so yes, no worries I'm sure I get those command lines in there. it has to be, no complaining. 2010-11-22 05:16 great. a bit more scriptability will go a long way. 2010-11-22 05:16 btw, I'm happy to report that Milkymist One software is really getting somewhere 2010-11-22 05:16 Adam is diving in, able to reflash, run test software, etc. 2010-11-22 05:17 that's a great sign both for the state of software, and also for Adam's ability to survive in the sometimes harsh FOSS world 2010-11-22 05:17 "hey, no attachments!" 2010-11-22 05:17 and so on... 2010-11-22 05:17 :-) 2010-11-22 05:17 very good ! does the hardware look sane so far ? 2010-11-22 05:17 sane? 2010-11-22 05:17 we have made PCBs 2010-11-22 05:17 i mean, no surprise bugs 2010-11-22 05:17 if it's not sane now we are insane 2010-11-22 05:17 well who knows 2010-11-22 05:17 no risk no fun 2010-11-22 05:17 ;-) 2010-11-22 05:17 I sure hope so, it's my money that is on the line. 2010-11-22 05:18 pcbs are made, and back in the warehouse 2010-11-22 05:18 all components are in the warehouse 2010-11-22 05:18 ah, no smt yet. good. 2010-11-22 05:18 now we are preparing the files for the SMT place, and schedule an appointment there 2010-11-22 05:18 you just had a small number of samples smt'ed, right ? 2010-11-22 05:18 in parallel Adam is exercising his testing muscles 2010-11-22 05:18 maybe SMT next week? depends on the SMT house (Minbo again) 2010-11-22 05:19 we are a small customer, that has pros and cons. At least we are a repeat customer (4th time now). 2010-11-22 05:19 because we are small, they can squeeze us in somewehre to fill idle times between or within larger jobs 2010-11-22 05:19 then we do x-ray, lots of testing, jtag-serial, power adapters, etc. etc. 2010-11-22 05:19 still lots of work 2010-11-22 05:19 viric: (ram on malta) more than necessary :) 128 Mb.. you are right, comparing speed is useless, it can't "slow down" 2010-11-22 05:19 (smt) ah, none yet. i misunderstood adam't mail then. that's just the boards. i had already wondered why there was no mention of whether the board(s) worked at all and such :) 2010-11-22 05:20 (repeat customer) you're already family ;-) 2010-11-22 05:20 no SMT yet, like I described 2010-11-22 05:20 we will mail them the files to ask for an appointment in a day or two 2010-11-22 05:20 how many units will you make in this run ? 2010-11-22 05:21 then we need to get a date, unrealistically late this week, more realistically sometime next week, if they are very busy even later 2010-11-22 05:21 our goal is 35 functioning units 2010-11-22 05:21 we made 52 pcbs 2010-11-22 05:21 so don't know, maybe smt 40? 2010-11-22 05:21 you can react on the line, to a degree 2010-11-22 05:22 depends on how quick everybody is, and how quick good decisions can be made :-) 2010-11-22 05:23 (react) good. i remember from OM that is was basically one board at a time until the beasties would come up at all 2010-11-22 05:23 so "the rest of the batch" may start the morning after, with people finishing at 3 am or so :) 2010-11-22 05:23 no no 2010-11-22 05:24 we are a bit quicker than that :-) that's chaos mode and Adam wouldn't want to work like this. 2010-11-22 05:24 that's why I said it's great that software is really improving nicely 2010-11-22 05:24 that helps a lot on the line 2010-11-22 05:24 hmm. sounds like a reasonable mode of operation to me. of course, you have to come prepared ... 2010-11-22 05:25 I need to take a closer look at the invoice. 2010-11-22 05:25 I think basically you are renting the line per hour. 2010-11-22 05:25 (including the people at the line) 2010-11-22 05:25 then extras depending on what happens or what is needed 2010-11-22 05:26 ah ! so the preparation better be good :) 2010-11-22 05:26 so there is no problem in 'slowing' down, say you make 1 board and want to test is a bit. the line can wait, 30 minutes, longer, no problem. 2010-11-22 05:26 they don't care since you pay by the hour. 2010-11-22 05:26 so like I said you need to be able to quickly make good decisions. 2010-11-22 05:26 yup. no problem until you run out of cash :) 2010-11-22 05:26 of course if you have to carry everything home, big discussions, etc. etc. then it gets complicated, slow and expensive. 2010-11-22 05:27 you basically need a test plan a few steps deep. also with plan B, C, and D for each item. 2010-11-22 05:27 ideally, with pre-made go/no go decisions. 2010-11-22 05:27 well maybe not C, D, but yes, in general that's the way to go 2010-11-22 05:28 good test software, good understanding of the board/system, ability to react (test software needs to have some flexibility) 2010-11-22 05:28 most important decision is whether something is reworkable by hand later, and at what cost (cash and time) 2010-11-22 05:29 yup 2010-11-22 05:29 because if it is, it may not be worth to slow down the pick&place/reflow/aoi line 2010-11-22 05:29 but yeah, needs preparation... 2010-11-22 05:29 so we see 2010-11-22 05:29 do you use any kind of test hardness (hardware) ? 2010-11-22 05:29 I don't think so 2010-11-22 05:29 harness 2010-11-22 05:30 just jtag cable 2010-11-22 05:30 ok. good old scope and jtag then :) 2010-11-22 05:30 also keep in mind it's only the second run, and only 35 units 2010-11-22 05:30 last time (the first 6 board) were made entirely 'blind' (on Adam's side) 2010-11-22 05:30 every > 10 is scary for manual testing :) 2010-11-22 05:31 everyTHING 2010-11-22 05:31 he could only do very basic current checks 2010-11-22 05:31 compared to that we have a whole SUITE of software now that can run and test all sorts of things... 2010-11-22 05:32 needless to say it's 100% gpl 2010-11-22 05:32 kewl 2010-11-22 05:32 (for the records, who knows when this is googled :-)) 2010-11-22 05:33 to make the suite, you need *something* that works. so i guess it's normal for the very first ones to be made "blindly" 2010-11-22 05:33 sometimes they try to pull all people/brains in for that 2010-11-22 05:33 maybe you remember Harald traveled to Taipei for some OLPC first/early run, etc. 2010-11-22 05:34 wpwrak: I have a question, maybe you can share some knowledge :-) 2010-11-22 05:34 when we make PCBs, we get those microsection pictures 2010-11-22 05:34 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1_rc2_microsection_NH06-004047_K231-6002.png 2010-11-22 05:34 I cannot imagine which part of the PCB that is 2010-11-22 05:35 the white area is the copper? 2010-11-22 05:35 the 'hole' (?) on the right side is a via? 2010-11-22 05:35 I don't get it... 2010-11-22 05:35 and what is checked/verified with this picture? 2010-11-22 05:35 it seems they look at the thickness of the white strips, whatever they are... 2010-11-22 05:35 hmm, cryptic indeed 2010-11-22 05:36 where do you see that hole ? 2010-11-22 05:36 well on the right side 2010-11-22 05:36 the white strip first goes right, then turns down 2010-11-22 05:36 what is to the right of it? 2010-11-22 05:36 is that a hole? 2010-11-22 05:37 overall I guess we are only looking at something like 30x40mil or so 2010-11-22 05:37 they typically send only one such picture with the delivery, so this must contain the key information 2010-11-22 05:37 you mean the blue/yellow space outside the white border ? that looks like background to me 2010-11-22 05:38 background of what? if the pcb is cut through, the picture is taken from the side maybe? 2010-11-22 05:38 seems you also don't know :-) 2010-11-22 05:38 (side) ah, lemme check ... 2010-11-22 05:39 hmm, but those scratch lines are visible everywhere 2010-11-22 05:40 maybe they are from cutting 2010-11-22 05:41 53 pixels for 3.823 mil, 447 pixels from top to bottom of image, that would be ... 2010-11-22 05:41 32.24 mil or 1.2 mm 2010-11-22 05:42 could be a vertical cut 2010-11-22 05:42 however, i'd expect to see the layering in a vertical cut 2010-11-22 05:43 err ...32.24 mil = 0.82 mm 2010-11-22 05:43 do we have more images ? maybe the area of the corner can be identified somewhere else 2010-11-22 05:44 no they only include this one image 2010-11-22 05:44 I will find out more, no worries... 2010-11-22 05:44 ah, http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_PCB_Specification 2010-11-22 05:45 and it's from manufacturing, not reverse engineering. okay, then the paramters should be in the spec :) 2010-11-22 05:48 hmm no, can't figure it out, sorry 2010-11-22 05:49 no problem, I'll dig up more information at the next opportunity. 2010-11-22 05:49 PCB manufacturing is one of my weakest spots. 2010-11-22 05:50 when will you take the first kicad-made design to the pcb fab ? 2010-11-22 05:51 hmm 2010-11-22 05:52 for the jtag-serial boards Yanjun Luo made, he already used KiCad 2010-11-22 05:52 of course they are very simple, 2 layer I think 2010-11-22 05:52 we need to make more of them 2010-11-22 05:52 not sure whether that counts :-) 2010-11-22 05:52 at a 'bigger' level the next one will be Xue, with all boomification, schematics review etc. still outstanding I'd say actually sending those GERBERs to a PCB maker is at least 2 months out 2010-11-22 05:53 also i don't want to rush it actually because we need to 'open' the process, it's one part of the exercise... 2010-11-22 05:54 jtag-serial had boards made at a pcb house ? that's already a good start then 2010-11-22 05:54 yes sure 2010-11-22 05:54 xue will be more complex/intersting, of course :) 2010-11-22 05:54 jtag-serial was hand-soldered, right ? 2010-11-22 05:54 yes 2010-11-22 05:54 have to think how we do the next 40 2010-11-22 05:55 could be a good test for kicad-to-smt 2010-11-22 05:55 if anything goes wrong, the damage is limited :) 2010-11-22 05:55 yes sure but documenting is slow, of course we try to add a little bit more every time 2010-11-22 05:56 you can see in the wiki in many areas it's already quite nice now 2010-11-22 05:56 but from where I think this can be, maybe we only have really opened up 20% or so of the total process, in a good way 2010-11-22 05:56 ok maybe 50% :-) 2010-11-22 05:57 50% would be quite a lot :) 2010-11-22 05:57 from KiCad to producable gerbers is missing, from KiCad to outsourceable SMT is missing 2010-11-22 05:57 well yeah, let's say 20 then 2010-11-22 05:57 boomification is missing, except for some very early beginnings in ben-wpan and mmone-jtag-serial 2010-11-22 05:57 you still need kicad-to-smt, automated production testing, etc. 2010-11-22 05:57 yup. the big boom hole, too 2010-11-22 05:57 for Milkymist and Xue there will be no problem on the testing side 2010-11-22 05:57 since those things are developed out in the open from day 1 2010-11-22 05:58 also a schematics "style guide" 2010-11-22 05:58 for Ben, we still need to retrofit some GPL testing codes, but the infrastructure gets better so this gets closer and closer 2010-11-22 05:58 sure that 'style guide' is included in my boomification 2010-11-22 05:59 (testing) do you have automated tests ? and the corresponding interface hardware ? 2010-11-22 05:59 then the whole mechanical thing, of course roh's laser-cutting with QCad and DXF is a great first step, and your scanning on the other side 2010-11-22 05:59 we get there :-) 2010-11-22 05:59 automated tests - yes, software + documentation 2010-11-22 05:59 but it's heavily 'work in progress' so don't ask me for URLs now 2010-11-22 05:59 (mech) yeah, roh is making the first real case :) that's pretty cool 2010-11-22 05:59 but 100% is out in the open from day 1 2010-11-22 06:00 lekernel has really done a remarkably good job on the testing side so far 2010-11-22 06:00 no 'test harness' yet (if you mean a hardware fixture), really the volumes are too low and any sort of real manufacturing problems are not yet understood well enough (because the volumes are too low), for that to be economical 2010-11-22 06:01 but of course, if volumes ever go up and test fixtures become economical, you bet that will all be in the same KiCad/boom/whatnot process as well, of course 2010-11-22 06:02 (fixture) i'm thinking of cooking something up for ben-wpan. particularly atusb won't be trivial (e.g., needs the firmware upload), and a quick RF check would be nice to have, too 2010-11-22 06:02 (fixture) nothing overly sophisticated, of course. probably a PCB plus a piece of wood. 2010-11-22 06:03 is it a fixture to help you developing the design, or to help with manufacturing road bumps/tolerances/etc? 2010-11-22 06:03 mainly to get rid of the "solder connector to board, flash, then remove connector" step 2010-11-22 06:03 for the latter you need to see differences in components and how they behave during production first, I think 2010-11-22 06:03 of course that can also be a 'home production line' 2010-11-22 06:04 it would be to flash/test in "production" (also including test after manual soldering, of course) 2010-11-22 06:04 you would only want to test something that is worth testing 2010-11-22 06:04 sure there needs to be some way to bootstrap :-) 2010-11-22 06:04 it would be more along the line of "see if it performs at all" 2010-11-22 06:05 e.g., if the signal is off by 10 dB, then something is clearly wrong. or if the supply voltage suffers drops. 2010-11-22 06:05 wpwrak: did you see Andrey's latest post on correcting image sensor pictures based on the individual lense characteristics? 2010-11-22 06:05 and then there's the flashing 2010-11-22 06:05 pretty amazing stuff 2010-11-22 06:06 http://blogs.elphel.com/2010/11/zoom-in-now-enhance/ 2010-11-22 06:06 andrey ... ah, elphel :) checking ... 2010-11-22 06:06 makes total sense to me given that each individual lense will always have differences 2010-11-22 06:06 (as he writes there) 2010-11-22 06:07 so the best is to 'calibrate' the system after sensor + lense are installed 2010-11-22 06:07 not sure whether something like this is necessary somewhere in RF land 2010-11-22 06:08 at OM we always had calibrating this and that, but many things were driven so largely out of incompetence, I rather throw away those experiences and try to find out where exactly this is actually necessary and benefitial... 2010-11-22 06:08 (lens calibration) very nice indeed 2010-11-22 06:09 for rf, the only thing i can calibrate is the oscillator. and that only on atusb, not atusd (the latter used the ben's clock, so it better be good :) 2010-11-22 06:10 so (for the lense) basically you are holding your test pattern at a certain distance and in certain light conditions, run your calibration software, and boom, performance can be much better 2010-11-22 06:10 (rf) ben-wpan i mean. other rf stuff can of course have other parameters 2010-11-22 06:10 (lens) yup. hubble reloaded :) 2010-11-22 06:10 and in Andrey's case all software is 100% gpl as well 2010-11-22 06:11 (the hardware too, of course, though he struggles with the same kind of proprietary tool problems we are struggling with) 2010-11-22 06:11 so xue will have auto-calibrating lenses as well ? :) 2010-11-22 06:11 luckily this is not production related 2010-11-22 06:11 (tools) once you've made xue, you can "sell" him kicad :) 2010-11-22 06:11 I'm happy if the first boards boot :-) 2010-11-22 06:11 *grin* 2010-11-22 06:12 btw, what's happening with the xue review ? on hold until you have time for boomification ? 2010-11-22 06:12 he 2010-11-22 06:12 I guess so, on my side 2010-11-22 06:13 I tried to contact some people, zero results so far as you can see :-) 2010-11-22 06:13 the best feedback was your mail 2010-11-22 06:13 Andres started with a BOOKSHELF now 2010-11-22 06:13 it'll be slow, but we get there... 2010-11-22 06:13 all i saw in terms of a reaction was a tentative attempt at making a BOOKSHELF file (i don't think it's expected to work, though) 2010-11-22 06:13 yep 2010-11-22 06:14 (contact people) it would be good to get the basic cleanup out of the way first 2010-11-22 06:15 once you have the attention of reviewers, you want to put it to good use. if they have to skip over 80% of the design because of incomplete information, you're wasting the opportunity 2010-11-22 06:15 (waste) first, because they may not have time/interest to do it again, but even if they do, they may not spot things they've already mentally checked off 2010-11-22 06:17 of course, sometimes simple mistakes are an indicator that the designer was tired/distracted, and there's more to find in the vicinity :) 2010-11-22 06:17 all agreed, it will take some time though, I think 2010-11-22 06:18 (works great for code. when you see, say, harald commit coding style violations, then there's a fair chance that there's a logic bug there, too :) 2010-11-22 06:23 (take time) it seems that the beads/inductors/filters may be a bit tricky. at least that's how i interpret the complete absence of any sort of characteristics. 2010-11-22 06:24 (no charcateristics) some of that can be expected, because they may depend on difficult design parameters, such a total current of a subsystem, but it's a bit unusual that none of the them have anything 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: improve "qpkg ... list" http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b0c29c4 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: sort package version list such that highest comes first http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c05e6d5 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: regression test for version preference http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b181db5 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: adding handling of conflicts (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/be31904 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: detect conflicts with installed packages http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c44510a 2010-11-22 06:24 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: also consider conflicts introduced by package about to be added http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b89bcdf 2010-11-22 06:40 pretty awesome :) 2010-11-22 06:40 running irssi in openwrt in qemu 2010-11-22 06:41 maybe we should set up a virtual Ben machine and allow people login and play with it remotely :) 2010-11-22 06:43 killall: qemu-system-mipsel: no process killed 2010-11-22 06:43 wops 2010-11-22 07:10 wpwrak: you mean the inductors, beads and filters in Xue have no values at all? 2010-11-22 07:12 well, some do. the inductors in the PSU, for example 2010-11-22 07:12 but FB1 or FB2 on DBG_PRG.sch don't have any hint 2010-11-22 07:13 at least the .cmp file reveals that they have a 0402 footprint 2010-11-22 07:14 oh, and on the PSU, R44 and R45 have no resistance. haven't spotted that one before ;-) 2010-11-22 07:15 likewise for R77, R78, R35, R36, R34, .. 2010-11-22 07:16 FB3 on sensor_psu.sch is also unspecified 2010-11-22 07:16 and there are more unknown resistors on taht sheet as well 2010-11-22 07:17 the mysteries continue with L4, L5 on USB.sch 2010-11-22 07:17 and so on 2010-11-22 07:17 i.e., you'll have fun ;-) 2010-11-22 07:23 hmm 2010-11-22 07:26 i suspect some of the mystery Rs are 0 Ohm or NC. but that's really something the designers should specify. it's a little silly if you have to do all the guesswork. well, it may be interesting as a learning experience :) 2010-11-22 07:28 sort of a cloze text ("lueckentext") ;-) 2010-11-22 08:12 building kernel on Ben running in qemu 2010-11-22 08:13 kyak: enjoying, eh? :) 2010-11-22 08:13 just more convenient than directly on Ben ;) i wonder if it would really succeed 2010-11-22 08:13 viric: yeah, so much fun 2010-11-22 08:30 kyak: do you use -nogrpahic, or you have framebuffer? 2010-11-22 08:31 so far i'm using -nographic, but i already enabled frambeffur in malta (only will be able to test at home) 2010-11-22 08:32 I don't know what controller malta has. Maybe its' a vga on its pci bus 2010-11-22 08:33 kyak: you know about ctrl-a in -nographic, right? :) 2010-11-22 08:33 yup 2010-11-22 08:33 yeah, if the framebuffer works, this would be great 2010-11-22 08:34 it will not be the same resolution as the ben though 2010-11-22 08:34 right.. 2010-11-22 08:36 how many openwrt commands are from busybox? or.. how much of busybox is used in openwrt? 2010-11-22 08:37 wpwrak: you will like this 2010-11-22 08:37 I'm just chatting with Andres about the missing values 2010-11-22 08:37 he says those values are not critical, and in the past they just used what they had in stock :-) 2010-11-22 08:38 not that I suggest we introduce such rules into boom, something like the 'garbage collector' value 2010-11-22 08:38 'put any excess item with the correct footprint here' 2010-11-22 08:40 viric: http://pastebin.mandriva.com/21309 2010-11-22 08:41 those are from busybox? 2010-11-22 08:41 then 'ifconfig' is not 2010-11-22 08:41 (did you check sbin?) 2010-11-22 08:41 heh 2010-11-22 08:41 no :) 2010-11-22 08:41 wait 2010-11-22 08:41 :q 2010-11-22 08:41 oops 2010-11-22 08:42 http://pastebin.mandriva.com/21310 2010-11-22 08:42 here 2010-11-22 08:42 opkg files busybox | grep "bin/" 2010-11-22 08:42 there may be more or less files 2010-11-22 08:42 depending on how you configure busybox 2010-11-22 08:43 I know I know 2010-11-22 08:44 I just wondered how would openwrt do 2010-11-22 08:44 oh, this is not an output from default openwrt build.. i have enabled busybox "desktop" option 2010-11-22 08:45 ah 2010-11-22 08:49 wolfspraul: yeah, some default may be good, though. there are already some. and of course, anything unspecified gives you the cheapest part, whatever it is :-) 2010-11-22 08:51 wolfspraul: and while a "whatever" bead makes some sense, there's no such thing for resistors. zero, infinity, and things in the middle, are all rather popular values ;-) 2010-11-22 08:53 wolfspraul: (defaults) there's one things i'm not quite sure about. that's "minimum standards". e.g., there are capacitors with incredibly wide tolerance ranges. so if you don't specify the capacitor type, boom may pick one of these (they're cheap, too) 2010-11-22 08:54 sure we'll get to it 2010-11-22 08:54 we only need to be careful to not wear out people over worthless discussions 2010-11-22 08:54 I noticed it slightly with the /250V rating issue on that one resistor on the jtag-serial board 2010-11-22 08:54 wolfspraul: on the other hand, for many caps, you just want "something reasonable". this tends to translate to X5R, X7R, NP0, and a few others. which one depends in manufacturer (e.g., some have a lot of X7R and not so much X5R anymore, while others only have X5R) and capacitance (for low values, everything becomes NP0) 2010-11-22 08:55 wolfspraul: (caps) alas, boom doesn't have lists of possible values so far 2010-11-22 08:56 wolfspraul: (250V) bah, they've probably just been too lazy to think this through ;-) 2010-11-22 08:58 it's good to have priorities 2010-11-22 08:58 so anyway, let's do one by one 2010-11-22 08:58 I mentioned the ones you listed earlier to Andres 2010-11-22 08:59 he understands in an open project you may want to be a bit more clear :-) 2010-11-22 08:59 hehe, good :) 2010-11-22 09:00 it'll also help with sourcing for smt :) 2010-11-22 09:54 mirko_: hi! i was wondering, if you were going to rebuild all packages for the latest image? the ones here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/packages/openwrt/xburst/latest/ are from 25-Apr-2010... 2010-11-22 10:11 kyak: yeah, i think we should trigger a build and fix issues (which will occur for sure :)) 2010-11-22 10:33 wpwrak: ping 2010-11-22 10:34 sleep 300; pong  # when done with lunch 2010-11-22 10:35 wpwrak: can you check if your account on varaha still ok? 2010-11-22 10:35 seems it lost my authorized_key 2010-11-22 10:37 ooh, and wiki.om.org id borked 2010-11-22 10:38 s/id/is 2010-11-22 10:40 now ... 2010-11-22 10:41 ssh werner@varaha.om.orgx 2010-11-22 10:41 i can't get in either. but i think that's a problem with the sshd. it seems to reject connections before even attempting authentication 2010-11-22 10:41 or simply varaha-rsync ;-) 2010-11-22 10:41 i guess the VM needs a reset 2010-11-22 10:41 looks like 2010-11-22 10:41 (Can't contact the database server: Can't create UNIX socket (12) (localhost)) 2010-11-22 10:42 so whole bhavani is dead? 2010-11-22 10:43 something weird going on there 2010-11-22 10:43 the VMs sometimes have their hickups ... such things have happened before 2010-11-22 10:44 but several VMs at once? 2010-11-22 10:44 wiki is davi, not varaha 2010-11-22 10:44 both are VM on bhavani 2010-11-22 10:44 mail is on bhavani as well :-S 2010-11-22 10:46 let's see about mail ... at least sita is working 2010-11-22 10:46 mail is ok though 2010-11-22 10:47 yup. mail is good. 2010-11-22 10:47 btw: 2010-11-22 10:47 debug1: Connecting to varaha.openmoko.org [88.198.93.220] port 22. 2010-11-22 10:47 debug1: Connection established. 2010-11-22 10:48 then 2010-11-22 10:48 debug1: identity file /home/jr/.ssh/id_dsa type 2 2010-11-22 10:48 ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host 2010-11-22 10:49 smells.... 2010-11-22 10:50 you have to ask roh. he'll know what to do 2010-11-22 10:50 pinged him, of course 2010-11-22 10:52 wpwrak: thanks for having a look 2010-11-22 10:57 no problem :) 2010-11-22 10:57 250V for R X-P 2010-11-22 10:58 somebody argued we need lower rating? 2010-11-22 10:58 well, the cap next to it is specifically rated at 250 V :) 2010-11-22 10:58 WTF! 2010-11-22 10:59 choke-less PSU or what? 2010-11-22 10:59 sync input from mains power? 2010-11-22 11:00 worse 2010-11-22 11:00 usb shield :) 2010-11-22 11:00 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/pdf_head/usb_jtag.pdf 2010-11-22 11:00 ahh 2010-11-22 11:00 R16 vs. C31 2010-11-22 11:00 fair enough 2010-11-22 11:04 well, kinda subcritical 2010-11-22 11:06 quite nice of designer to bother about gnd loops. But honestly if it exceeds 250V you're in severe trouble somewhere else 2010-11-22 11:06 i wonder. intel recommend to simply ground it directly and be done with it. this RC circuit seems to originate from audio designs and similar low-frequency stuff. 2010-11-22 11:06 yeah, GND at 250 V -> ough ! :) 2010-11-22 11:08 this RC is to keep gnd loop parasitary DC and 50Hz from flowing thru shielding 2010-11-22 11:09 imagine you got 2 devices with metal case, and both are mounted on remote points of a car. You don't want starter current to flow thru your USB cable shielding 2010-11-22 11:11 heh :) so how do you do RF interconnects in such an environment ? 2010-11-22 11:11 that's more from network engineering rather than audio. Like where to connect gnd of a switch/hup star topoligy 2010-11-22 11:12 wpwrak: balun (RF) 2010-11-22 11:12 hm.. i hope my Ben didn't take it personally that i've been playing with qemu... cause it won't turn off -\ 2010-11-22 11:13 it's just a simple coincidence 2010-11-22 11:13 DocScrutinizer: so you float the shield on one side ? 2010-11-22 11:13 yep 2010-11-22 11:13 kyak: coincidence ... "make it look like an accident" :) 2010-11-22 11:14 DocScrutinizer: hmm, scary 2010-11-22 11:14 why? 2010-11-22 11:15 DocScrutinizer: you may end up floating it on both sides, if the exact role of the device isn't fixed 2010-11-22 11:15 ;-D 2010-11-22 11:15 that's why you need experts to properly design such stuff 2010-11-22 11:16 and expert users :) 2010-11-22 11:16 wpwrak: really... it scares me 2010-11-22 11:17 for a ethernet star topology (central hub) you usually require matching patch cables to connect 'peripherals'. Depending on whether the case has PE or not, you need a patch cable without or with shield contacts on both sides 2010-11-22 11:18 thee's different types of RJ45 jacks for that 2010-11-22 11:20 probably easier to let whatever happens happen to shield and run the signal on a differential pair;-) 2010-11-22 11:20 a design like the one with that RC circuit is good for all usecases 2010-11-22 11:20 (and hope there are no starter currents that find the shield a convenient path :) 2010-11-22 11:22 and yes, if there's lightning nearby, those RC circuits usually emit blue magic smoke, no matter if rated 250 or 1kV 2010-11-22 11:22 hmm, if you mix it with a shield = sgnal gnd design, won't you then risk getting those things on the signal gnd line ? 2010-11-22 11:22 you shouldn't mix 2010-11-22 11:24 (mix) but you're likely to, considering that signal gnd = shield gnd is what's recommended for USB. 2010-11-22 11:24 on the design like above, you can't eliminate the signal gnd line and abuse shielding for that. Except if you short signal gnd and shielding in both plugs of the cable. This won't fly though, as you have no differential design anymore 2010-11-22 11:27 cables that do botch on this detail are the ones that regularly fail with some devices while working ok with others 2010-11-22 11:27 http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/apps/msp/intrface/usb/emitest.pdf 2010-11-22 11:28 well, direct ground or bead. they have both. 2010-11-22 11:29 ah no, that's for signal ground. so just direct 2010-11-22 11:29 (it's clear in figure 12) 2010-11-22 11:35 yes, as usually you don't see PE on GND of USB devices 2010-11-22 11:36 the whole purpose is to avoid gnd loops 2010-11-22 11:36 PE = protective earth ? 2010-11-22 11:37 in the case of a pc, it's certainly there, though 2010-11-22 11:37 in a design like fig12, if you had a metal housing with PE, you need to connect the metal housing to gnd plane via some RC circuit like in JTAG design 2010-11-22 11:37 and there's nothing preventing a pc from being connected to another device that's on mains (printer, etc.) 2010-11-22 11:39 ...and avoud conductive connection from housing to USB recepatcles 2010-11-22 11:39 then you need to isolate the connectors from the chassis. sounds weird. 2010-11-22 11:39 yup, exactly 2010-11-22 11:39 nobody does that ;-) 2010-11-22 11:39 not many do this 2010-11-22 11:39 quite to the contrary. they usually try to close all the gaps, for EMI 2010-11-22 11:39 I've seen it in a few proper designs 2010-11-22 11:41 so the choice is to either do it properly, and run into problems if you connect to the many improper devices, or to do it improperly, and to occasionally run into problems, too. nice :) 2010-11-22 11:41 yes, basically 2010-11-22 11:42 sigh 2010-11-22 11:42 or have a design that simply doesn't offer attack vectors for any problems. E.G. plastic case, no PE 2010-11-22 11:43 galvanic separation of all usb signals ;-) 2010-11-22 11:43 hmm, should. Yes 2010-11-22 11:43 or just go wireless - solved ;-) 2010-11-22 11:43 though USB isn't designed for large topologies 2010-11-22 11:44 yet there we are ... 2010-11-22 11:44 so even if you create a gnd loop by connecting 3 devices to each other with 3 cables, the loop still is of small geometric size 2010-11-22 11:45 so you're saying the RC circuit is good, even considering that it lives in a world that connects signal ground to shield and shield to chassis ? 2010-11-22 11:45 yes 2010-11-22 11:46 (loop) you could have things like PC to hifi, both fed from mains 2010-11-22 11:46 hifi may be usb host and device 2010-11-22 11:46 worst thing that can happen is it's short circuited and has no effect 2010-11-22 11:46 (rc good) okay, thanks 2010-11-22 11:47 yw 2010-11-22 11:47 now, how do devices like scopes do it ? where does their probe ground go ? 2010-11-22 11:48 a good question 2010-11-22 11:49 you should check carefully on your particular scope 2010-11-22 11:49 usually probe GND is either floating or connected to case with a RC 2010-11-22 11:50 on some scopes you even can switch 2010-11-22 11:52 nota bene probe tips are unipolar, means shielding ends there and is not mandatory to get connected to DUT GND at this very spot 2010-11-22 11:53 hmm, but the grould loop acts on the signal 2010-11-22 11:54 in a general case? or specifically with scopes and USB? 2010-11-22 11:54 even if you just use the clip vs. the spring, you get degradation. if you close the loop via mains, it ought the be even more fun 2010-11-22 11:54 in general 2010-11-22 11:55 usb gets more complex ;) then it's scope -> usb -> pc -> usb -> device, or the same with mains :) 2010-11-22 11:55 in general you have several unipolar probes (chan1,2, trigger) plus *one* dedicated connection of scope GND to DUT GND 2010-11-22 11:56 scope test GND is not supposed to connect to PE or anything else, so scope becomes part of your DUT GND domain 2010-11-22 11:57 hmm, what i read is that it should be close to the signal ground where the signal originates 2010-11-22 11:57 for a rule of thumb, and simple one channel/probe cases, that's correct 2010-11-22 11:58 that's why probes have an option to connect a GND clip to the probe head 2010-11-22 11:59 yup. also produces noticeable cleaner signals 2010-11-22 12:00 o/ 2010-11-22 12:08 ok, restored my ben 2010-11-22 12:09 lucky you :) 2010-11-22 12:09 i wonder why i had to find the "Unbrick" page in wiki via google 2010-11-22 12:09 perhaps wiki search is broken 2010-11-22 12:09 btw, last thing i remember i was trying to ubiattach my datafs in jlime (booted from SD) 2010-11-22 12:10 i also attached the uboot partition, but i'd like to believe this is not related, or i might have made mistake somewhere 2010-11-22 12:10 hmm 2010-11-22 12:11 'nix' noticed as if the commit 3244d5e on openwrt-xburst had different contents than it had some time ago 2010-11-22 12:12 Did someone rebase there? 2010-11-22 14:18 discovers linux-libre and laughs 2010-11-22 14:19 :) 2010-11-22 14:20 what? 2010-11-22 14:21 I seriously have trouble understanding people who argue that no driver is better than a driver with a blob 2010-11-22 14:22 what do they want? the manufacturers to put their blobs into flash memory? why increase hardware cost and complexity this way? 2010-11-22 14:22 i'm a bit puzzled about it myself. are they just removing drivers ? or are they modifying them ? the latter could make sense 2010-11-22 14:22 it seems they're just removing them 2010-11-22 14:22 the former seems to be a .config-editing task 2010-11-22 14:23 hey, yes, but don't advertise non-free software :) 2010-11-22 14:23 duh 2010-11-22 14:23 if someone buys a computer with hardware that requires the tiniest bit of non-free software, it must be hard for them to get it to work 2010-11-22 14:23 the funny thing is blobs are ok if they are in a rom 2010-11-22 14:24 besides, GCC and GNU/Autocrap also seem pretty obfuscated to me :) 2010-11-22 14:24 larsc: yeah, that's a totally stupid FSF idea 2010-11-22 14:25 i wonder if a computer with a winxp burned into a flash chip would be ok for them ;) 2010-11-22 14:25 yes, it is 2010-11-22 14:25 it would be fun to make one, if you have spare time 2010-11-22 14:25 there are already winxp live cds, which could be a nice base to start from 2010-11-22 14:27 and to run additional (closed) software you have to insert cardriges 2010-11-22 14:27 what 'blobs' are there for the nanonote? 2010-11-22 14:27 larsc: only if they cut the Write Enable line :) 2010-11-22 14:27 just curiosity 2010-11-22 14:27 none 2010-11-22 14:27 larsc: btw, is upstream 2.6.36 totally ready for the nanonote? 2010-11-22 14:27 viric: well it boots 2010-11-22 14:27 but some parts are missing 2010-11-22 14:27 ah 2010-11-22 14:28 so the qi-hardware 2.6.35 is still 'better' than upstream 2.6.36? 2010-11-22 14:28 there is a qi-hw 2.6.36 2010-11-22 14:29 I imagine 2010-11-22 14:29 I don't have it at hand :) 2010-11-22 14:29 can all there go upstream soon? or it needs rework? 2010-11-22 14:29 so why don't you just get it? :) 2010-11-22 14:29 viric: i'm working on it 2010-11-22 14:29 larsc: hmm, given that the ben can do TCP/IP, are you sure there's no network-attached whatever that could conceivably load some blob ? 2010-11-22 14:29 thank you very much 2010-11-22 14:29 kyak: uaaa laziness. 2010-11-22 14:30 larsc: remember, for the obsessively politically correct, there's no soup without at least a few atoms that can be attributed to a hair :) 2010-11-22 14:31 Why xiangfu recommends using linux to erase the rootfs partitions? Can that work? (the linux running in that rootfs...) 2010-11-22 14:32 well, it will work more or less. you should remove power as soon as it is done eraseing the partition 2010-11-22 14:32 :) 2010-11-22 14:33 larsc: and make sure no "dirty" buffers are pending for writing back while the erase is in progress :) 2010-11-22 14:33 it looks optimistic to me :) 2010-11-22 14:33 it is 2010-11-22 14:34 viric: it looks like something where your choice is between it not working and it working, but not the way you intended it to ;-) 2010-11-22 14:34 :) 2010-11-22 14:35 I hope he will fix that problem 2010-11-22 14:35 I just built uboot and the kernel to revive the thing 2010-11-22 14:35 hm I need aluminum paper 2010-11-22 14:37 viric: CIA spy satellites putting ideas into your brain when you sleep ? 2010-11-22 14:37 crossing the 'usbboot' on the nanonote back :) 2010-11-22 14:37 ah, *that* kind of Al paper :) 2010-11-22 14:38 hm. We name it here 'silver paper' or 'aluminum paper' 2010-11-22 14:38 (literally translating) 2010-11-22 14:39 viric: yeah,i understood what you means. in english, they also use "tin foil". my joke was about "tin foil hats" 2010-11-22 14:39 I don't get it 2010-11-22 14:40 ah 2010-11-22 14:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat 2010-11-22 14:40 "One may wear the hat in the belief that it acts to shield the brain from such influences as electromagnetic fields, or against mind control and/or mind reading; or attempt to limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain." 2010-11-22 14:41 ah, it may help those unluckily having demodulators in their brains 2010-11-22 14:43 When I have to flash with "-n" (nprog) and when not? 2010-11-22 14:46 does anybody have some kind of datasheet for the LCD? I'd like to see its peculiarity 2010-11-22 14:47 larsc: there is no way to scroll-up the 2.6.35 qi-hardware kernel, if it panics before mounting the rootfs, right? 2010-11-22 14:47 I remember something like you planned all the keymap to be set in userland 2010-11-22 14:49 btw, this looks potentially interesting: he manages to cram a bit more than 80 characters in a single line of text (nominally 320 pixels, but the image is only 302x220): http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/11/designing_the_smallest_legible_scre.html 2010-11-22 14:50 (so the original is probably a bit more readable. the guy uses some weird java junk, though, so i can't display it) 2010-11-22 14:52 it displays fine here 2010-11-22 14:52 I can make a png for you 2010-11-22 14:52 oh, that would be great, thanks ! 2010-11-22 14:54 http://imagebin.ca/view/LAWq_Fg8.html 2010-11-22 14:56 I wonder if my screen has rgb like he thinks 2010-11-22 14:57 Itake the microscope 2010-11-22 14:57 nice, thanks ! pretty readable indeed. just the "a" looks a bit too much like an "o" 2010-11-22 14:58 hell. mine is BGR BGR BGR 2010-11-22 14:58 the opposite of what he thinks 2010-11-22 14:59 my other screen is also BGR BGR BGR 2010-11-22 15:00 lall 2010-11-22 15:00 oops. 2010-11-22 15:03 i belgium, they have a new driving exam: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/08/font_designed_with_a_car.html 2010-11-22 15:04 stupid me 2010-11-22 15:04 the microscope inverts the picture. I have RGB. 2010-11-22 15:05 lekernel__: and here's something you may like: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/10/interactive_fonts_for_when_bold_isn.html 2010-11-22 15:07 viric: heh.. managed to start the malta in qemu with fb support (i.e. i see gmenu2x interface). I just blindly enabled several FB devices 2010-11-22 15:07 buttons don't seem to work though 2010-11-22 15:08 perhaps need to enable some input devices 2010-11-22 15:09 great 2010-11-22 15:19 heh 2010-11-22 15:20 we should distribute a qemu image for users 2010-11-22 15:20 to evaluate Ben :) 2010-11-22 15:22 you could make that openwrt build for i686 or x86_64 2010-11-22 15:22 it would run much faster :) 2010-11-22 15:23 ..and then i'll end up installing it to my desktop - no, thanks :) 2010-11-22 15:23 for qemu I mean 2010-11-22 15:24 larsc: how could I read the kernel log, if it fails to mount rootfs? 2010-11-22 15:24 serial 2010-11-22 15:24 uf. 2010-11-22 15:25 after kernel panic, it totally blocks? 2010-11-22 15:25 Couldn't I scroll up if I overwrote the keymap in the kernel? 2010-11-22 15:26 and how can I make the kernel put the traces to the serial? 2010-11-22 15:26 (I have a ftdi 3v3 cable around) 2010-11-22 15:26 it does it by default 2010-11-22 15:28 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/QEMU.png -) 2010-11-22 15:28 I'll try 2010-11-22 15:29 kyak: nice. I'm still using terminal menus 2010-11-22 15:29 the terminal menus remembers me the DOS times; many had a menu shown on autoexec.bat 2010-11-22 15:30 larsc: 9600bps? 2010-11-22 15:36 57600 2010-11-22 15:36 maybe it's me, but I don't see anything at 57600... 2010-11-22 15:37 ah it works. 2010-11-22 15:37 great 2010-11-22 15:38 [    7.590000] UBIFS error (pid 1): validate_sb: LEB size mismatch: 524288 in superblock, 516096 real 2010-11-22 15:38 (thank you, open hardware!) 2010-11-22 15:40 what does it have to do with open hardware? 2010-11-22 15:41 in open hardware I can come to irc, ask "how to debug bla bla", and I get answers :) 2010-11-22 15:41 all NAND flashes suffer from this kind of problem... 2010-11-22 15:41 ah :) 2010-11-22 15:41 ok, sorry 2010-11-22 15:41 lekernel was about to get agressive :) 2010-11-22 15:41 hehehe 2010-11-22 15:41 night 2010-11-22 16:37 hmm what did the xburst qi-hardware kernel call as init? /sbin/preinit? 2010-11-22 16:40 ah found. it's the last patch... /etc/preinit 2010-11-22 17:01 larsc: is /dev/console the serial line, or the screen? 2010-11-22 17:05 hm... the serial line says:  /bin/sh can't access tty; job control turned off 2010-11-22 17:05 while nothing appears on the screen 2010-11-22 17:06 viric: isn't /dev/console current tty? 2010-11-22 17:06 no 2010-11-22 17:06 /dev/tty is the current tty 2010-11-22 17:08 /dev/console is where the kernel is said to throw messages (the console=...) 2010-11-22 17:16 humm I see very tricky things in the openwrt patches for the kernel 2010-11-22 18:48 viric: (minicom) nice ... so is that four or only three times obsolete ? 1) move from almighty root to more fine-grained permissions. 2) Linux capabilities that give non-root users special powers. 3) SELinux that restricts what root can do. 4) VMs where you often don't really care anyway. I guess someone, somewhere is still struggling with the future shock that came with the invention of the cave ... :) 2010-11-22 20:33 evil is here http://www.youtube.com/google#p/a/u/1/bq-hXD33vXs 2010-11-22 20:33 Now i realize why we need  a evoluted OSM 2010-11-22 20:34 OSm + Wikipedia + ... 2010-11-22 20:35 yeah camera is important and geolocation 2010-11-22 20:38 hey all 2010-11-22 20:38 hello jad 2010-11-22 20:38 i want to buy a external hard drive and i want to know wich one u advice me to buy ? 2010-11-22 20:38 lg 2010-11-22 20:38 WD 2010-11-22 20:38 seagate 2010-11-22 20:38 .... 2010-11-22 20:38 wich brand is the best ? 2010-11-22 20:39 well.. 2010-11-22 20:39 anybody can help me to choose plz ?! 2010-11-22 20:39 i found many articles on google but not all are the same 2010-11-22 20:39 some say maxtor is the best some say wd 2010-11-22 20:40 try on #electronics 2010-11-22 20:41 i joined and it says  cannot send to channel 2010-11-22 20:41 :( 2010-11-22 20:41 i dont know why 2010-11-22 20:41 bad boy ! :) 2010-11-22 20:41 lol 2010-11-22 20:41 afk 2010-11-22 20:59 hmm. i wonder if something like  Provides: erlang-erts=5.7 ...  is really valid. (found it in the OpenWRT Packages). neither Jlime nor Ubuntu use = in "Provides" 2010-11-22 20:59 not that it would make sense in some way ... 2010-11-22 20:59 s/would/wouldn't/ 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: test for the QPKG_ADDING leakage bug http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/8d453d7 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: move "struct pkg" and its allocation from gobble.c and qpkg.h to pkg.[hc] http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bbf9c42 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: added parsing and recording of Provides data http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/9d208dd 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg/TODO: some open policy questions (cyclic dependencies and use of Provides) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c95d064 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: light cleanup of prereq.c:resolve and change forgotten in last commit http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/068264e 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg/test/bug-adding: found another manifestation of the same problem http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ab5df0a 2010-11-22 21:00 [commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: added some field names and relational operators from Ubuntu http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6a3e471 2010-11-22 21:31 good 20ns is the min i needed 2010-11-22 21:36 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x update, use the open.png as the default wallpaper http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/728bd4d 2010-11-22 21:36 nah not sdl for now i just need show 1 and 0, ascii can do that. lest wait what is workign on wpwrak with sdl glx :D 2010-11-22 21:37 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: triggersad: update the download URL. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d0c6f14 2010-11-22 21:37 ah yes gnuplot will help here 2010-11-22 21:39 s/here/there 2010-11-22 21:45 xiangfu: I'm looking at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image 2010-11-22 21:46 then under 'Downloading sources' 2010-11-22 21:46 I think the scripts/feeds update -a && scripts/feeds install -a should be before the yes ""|make oldconfig in the earlier paragraph 2010-11-22 21:47 maybe I restructure this a bit 2010-11-22 21:47 plus the instructions under 'Downloading sources' are not just about downloading, they do everything including building the entire image 2010-11-22 21:47 i put  the make old, i felt was missing, sorry i dint look on the order 2010-11-22 21:48 or we remove some of those commands since they are listed in the sections below again 2010-11-22 21:48 I'll just try to edit a bit, see whether it gets better... 2010-11-22 21:48 please :) 2010-11-22 21:49 what's the difference between aptitude and apt-get? 2010-11-22 21:49 I never use aptitude... 2010-11-22 21:49 aptitude is smart ! 2010-11-22 21:49 scaring smarting i could say ;-) 2010-11-22 21:49 s/smarting/smart 2010-11-22 21:51 what's the advantage over apt-get? 2010-11-22 21:51 "yes sr i will isntall foo package and in the mean time i think package a,b,c d and are not needed any more, so dont care i will make this srity work for you" 2010-11-22 21:51 hey it's a wiki, I'm editing so I will change to what I think is the 'better' command, apt-get :-) 2010-11-22 21:51 is a ncruses or whatever dpkg fronted 2010-11-22 21:52 eye candy on console is handy some times 2010-11-22 21:52 s/srity/dirty 2010-11-22 21:53 when using 'aptitude' remove package. it will also remove depends . apt-get don't 2010-11-22 21:54 agreed 2010-11-22 21:54 so I think apt-get is safer 2010-11-22 21:54 :D 2010-11-22 21:55 if someone wants to build OpenWrt images on his system, why do we have to direct him to a command that will also 'cleanup' unnecessary packages on his system? 2010-11-22 21:55 looks like asking for trouble to me 2010-11-22 21:55 I moved some of the commands to the later sections 2010-11-22 21:55 I think there is a bit too much text between the commands, need to cut that shorter still. 2010-11-22 22:03 fixed some typo in "make package/***"