2010-11-17 00:57 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add dosfslabel, resize2fs, sysfsutils, tune2fs http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5b3819d 2010-11-17 01:08 damn. 2010-11-17 01:08 mirko marked ncurses as broken 2010-11-17 01:09 without actually interesting WHY it got in openwrt-packages 2010-11-17 01:09 -\ 2010-11-17 01:10 :) 2010-11-17 01:10 kyak: I am reflash the 2010-11-15 build to nanonote now. 2010-11-17 01:11 xiangfu: no sense without ncursesw. 2010-11-17 01:11 then I will add more apps entry in gmenu2x. so if you think which application should add in gmen2x. just let me know. 2010-11-17 01:11 vim, abook, nightsky :) 2010-11-17 01:12 also i was thinking about gmenu2x 2010-11-17 01:12 and i realized that it makes me sick 2010-11-17 01:12 kyak: the problem came from mirko's testing branch in openwrt-xburst 2010-11-17 01:12 but there was no testing branch in openwrt-packages, and openwrt has no 'pinning' feature to pin feeds at a certain revision... 2010-11-17 01:12 so we'll sort this out... 2010-11-17 01:13 kyak: I thought he marked it as broken only in the new openwrt-packages testing branch? or also in master? 2010-11-17 01:13 wolfspraul: do you know what was the problem? 2010-11-17 01:13 he said something in alsa 2010-11-17 01:13 which I think is also because he is on the testing branch :-) 2010-11-17 01:13 wolfspraul: no, it's marked as broken in master 2010-11-17 01:14 not possible 2010-11-17 01:14 there is the same ncurses version on testing branch 2010-11-17 01:14 in fact, i just took it from testing 2010-11-17 01:14 ok let's see 2010-11-17 01:14 one by one 2010-11-17 01:14 nto changing anything 2010-11-17 01:14 let me explain 2010-11-17 01:15 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [nethack] [new package] single player dungeon exploration game http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/182a82a 2010-11-17 01:15 'ncurses' is a part of base openwrt system 2010-11-17 01:16 it is located in packages/ncurses 2010-11-17 01:16 it is not a part of openwrt feeds 2010-11-17 01:16 we used to have ncursesw (ncurses wide version, which does support UTF-8) when we were tracking openwrt trunk 2010-11-17 01:17 but there was no ncursesw in backfire. 2010-11-17 01:17 it was just not backported there 2010-11-17 01:17 but since we went back to tracking backfire, we lost ncursesw 2010-11-17 01:17 ok, following 2010-11-17 01:17 therefore i added it to openwrt-packages.. thus effectively overwriteing ncurses from packages/ncurses of backfire base system 2010-11-17 01:18 in fact, ncurses Makefile and pacthes in openwrt-packages is just a copy of ncurses from latest openwrt 2010-11-17 01:18 now, we have support for UTF-8 in ncurses 2010-11-17 01:19 we had, before mirko marked it as broken 2010-11-17 01:19 and UTF-8 works i nfact.. tested with a bunch of apps like lynx, abook.. 2010-11-17 01:19 yes sure 2010-11-17 01:19 but we will just enable it again :-) 2010-11-17 01:20 mirko just wants his peace on the testing branch, and as long as openwrt-packages had no matching testing branch, this created a conflict for him, for whatever reason 2010-11-17 01:20 but now there is a testing branch in openwrt-packages as well 2010-11-17 01:20 i'll just ask mirko to read my explanation above.. maybe he will even backport ncursesw to backfire 2010-11-17 01:20 this would be the best solution 2010-11-17 01:20 I don't understand why he marked ncurses as broken on the opwenwrt-packages master branch though 2010-11-17 01:20 so maybe I'm missing something 2010-11-17 01:21 kyak: see this mail http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-November/006141.html 2010-11-17 01:22 I think we can re-enable ncurses in the openwrt-packages master branch 2010-11-17 01:22 hm wait a second 2010-11-17 01:23 i thought openwrt-packages IS a testing repo 2010-11-17 01:23 eh, that's a separate discussion/definition 2010-11-17 01:23 from what i understood now, we need to merge commits from master to testing 2010-11-17 01:23 no 'need', if you think it's critical for the next upcoming release, then yes 2010-11-17 01:23 i think all commit should go there, why not? 2010-11-17 01:24 commits go to master first 2010-11-17 01:24 what is broken, is marked as broken 2010-11-17 01:24 what is working, is working 2010-11-17 01:24 sure 2010-11-17 01:24 but I think ncurses was working before, just depends for whom :-) 2010-11-17 01:24 because the openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages branches are not in sync 2010-11-17 01:25 I have a related question: is it a good idea in general to have 2 packages with the same name in 2 different locations? 2010-11-17 01:25 not the best idea. but it works 2010-11-17 01:25 what if the ncurses in openwrt-packages would be ncurses-utf8 or so, just to give it a distinctive name 2010-11-17 01:25 what would be the consequence? dependency problems? 2010-11-17 01:26 yes, a lot of packages depend on libncurses 2010-11-17 01:26 it's not possible just to use another name 2010-11-17 01:26 as i said, the best would be to backport it to backfire 2010-11-17 01:26 in fact, it wil not cause any problems because it is tested.. 2010-11-17 01:27 maybe you rememeber, i asked larsc to backport some commits to backfire to make ncursesw build 2010-11-17 01:28 yes, remember 2010-11-17 01:29 they don't like the idea of backporting ncursesw? 2010-11-17 01:29 I think the solution with ncurses in openwrt-packages is just fine 2010-11-17 01:29 mirko's problem comes from him being on the testing branch and running into a conflict 2010-11-17 01:29 my understanding is that we can re-enable it on the master branch anyway, but I will confirm with him 2010-11-17 01:30 i didn't ask to backport ncursesw, i thought we could do  "locally" (i.e. in openwrt-packages) without disturbing anyone :) 2010-11-17 01:31 in fact, i remember that we had local ncurses once 2010-11-17 01:31 and then it went upstream 2010-11-17 01:31 and we removed it from openwrt-packages 2010-11-17 01:31 it was some work between larsc and... bartbes? 2010-11-17 01:31 i would like to know about mirko's problem 2010-11-17 01:32 and conflicts he had on testing branch 2010-11-17 01:34 he said "it broke also so I marked it as broken" 2010-11-17 01:34 alsa 2010-11-17 01:34 not also 2010-11-17 01:34 "it broke alsa so I marked it as broken" 2010-11-17 01:34 don't follow the connection.. 2010-11-17 01:35 mirko said "ncurses in openwrt-packages broke alsa so I marked it as broken" 2010-11-17 01:35 what he said in git log: 2010-11-17 01:35 [ncurses] mark ncurses as broken, since it interferes with openwrt/package/ncurses 2010-11-17 01:36 ok let's see what he says later 2010-11-17 01:37 my understanding is about the branches, and since there is a testing branch in openwrt-packages now, ncurses can be enabled again in openwrt-packages/master, as long as it works for master 2010-11-17 01:37 in general overriding the same package name is probably not very clean, but if it works I guess it's OK as a workaround 2010-11-17 01:40 ok... 2010-11-17 01:46 kyak:  have you test the if "libncursesw" compile fine after mirko mark the "libncurses" as BROKEN ? 2010-11-17 01:47 kyak: I guest it's will still compile fine (ont tested) 2010-11-17 01:47 s/ont/not/ 2010-11-17 01:47 s/guest/guess 2010-11-17 01:47 xiangfu: uh, no... wait a second. 2010-11-17 01:47 . 2010-11-17 01:47 actually you may be right 2010-11-17 01:49 you guys lost me now? 2010-11-17 01:49 Mirko mark the another "libncurses" as broken, not "libncursesw" 2010-11-17 01:49 the package name is 'ncurses' 2010-11-17 01:50 theoretically, it would take libncurses from openwrt-xburst and libncursesw from openwrt-pacakges 2010-11-17 01:50 ah no, the folder is 'ncurses' but the package is 'libncurses' and 'libncursesw' 2010-11-17 01:50 mirko indeed marked 'libncurses' VARIANT is broken 2010-11-17 01:50 package name is 'ncurses'  in oepnwrt-package include two package: libncursesw and libncurses 2010-11-17 01:57 if the 'libncurses' package in openwrt-packages comes out exactly as the upstream one, then why don't we just have the libncursesw package in openwrt-packages? 2010-11-17 01:58 and if that gets backported to backfire one day, we remove it. or if we update to the next release, we remove it as well. 2010-11-17 02:06 if it works now as xiangfu suggested, this might be exactly what we have now. just libncursesw package in openwrt-packages 2010-11-17 02:07 yes 2010-11-17 02:07 but then we still need to decide whether we want to remove the BROKEN marked parts (libncurses package), or leave it just as is (maybe will confuse someone later) 2010-11-17 02:09 actually you are right, we could remove the libncurses completely from Makefile.. marking at as BROKEN could be just easir :) 2010-11-17 02:13 i wonder why there's still two libncurses in menuconfig.. 2010-11-17 02:16 i also see that utilities depending on ncurses get deselected 2010-11-17 02:18 it looks like it got even worse now 2010-11-17 02:18 marking libncurses as broken in openwrt-packages somehow affects libncurses from openwrt-xburst 2010-11-17 02:18 and all other paps depending on it 2010-11-17 02:18 *apps 2010-11-17 02:20 kyak: yes. those two libncurses all marked BROKEN in menuconfig. 2010-11-17 02:21 i think im going to fix it as wolfspraul suggested.. leave only libncursesw in openwrt-packages 2010-11-17 02:21 kyak: sound good. 2010-11-17 02:22 xiangfu: btw, yesterday i was able to type russian in Qt app! 2010-11-17 02:22 and I think by committing to 'master', in both openwrt-xburst or openwrt-packages, we will not intefere with mirko's testing branches and activities 2010-11-17 02:22 all thanks to kmap2qmap, which convert linux console keymaps to Qt keymaps 2010-11-17 02:23 it also means that all special keys of Ben are working in Qt 2010-11-17 02:23 kyak: good job. :) 2010-11-17 02:24 also mirko fixed that annoying bug when Qt app couldn't exit correctly 2010-11-17 02:25 kyak: well, not in NanoMap yet, it seems 2010-11-17 02:25 wolfspraul: in NanoMap, too! 2010-11-17 02:25 really? 2010-11-17 02:25 you tried it? 2010-11-17 02:25 maybe he strted NanoMap from gmenu2x 2010-11-17 02:25 I thought mirko said earlier in this chat that nanomap still doesnt' exist 2010-11-17 02:25 then it won't exit corerctly because export QWS_DISPLAY=linuxfb is not set 2010-11-17 02:26 yes, probably from gmenu2x 2010-11-17 02:26 this is another problem 2010-11-17 02:26 so where to we have to export the variable to gmenu2x has it too? 2010-11-17 02:26 gmenu2x won't read /etc/profile on startup, and doesn't know about those env 2010-11-17 02:26 where do we have to... 2010-11-17 02:26 we need to export those before starting NanoMap 2010-11-17 02:27 somewhere in gmenu2x menu item 2010-11-17 02:27 maybe a wrapper 2010-11-17 02:28 xiangfu: btw, maybe it's better to start gmenu2x in another way through inittab 2010-11-17 02:29 calling it via ash --login 2010-11-17 02:29 so it would know about env vars 2010-11-17 02:30 kyak: for now it's "tty1::respawn:/usr/bin/gmenu2x" 2010-11-17 02:30 maybe "tty1::respawn:/bin/ash --login -c /usr/bin/gmenu2x" 2010-11-17 02:30 kyak: since the "usr/bin/gmen2x" is already a wrapper. how about add one line read /etc/profile 2010-11-17 02:31 kyak: ok. let me try. 2010-11-17 02:31 xiangfu: good idea, too 2010-11-17 02:32 testing tty1::respawn:/bin/ash --login -c /usr/bin/gmenu2x 2010-11-17 02:46 kyak: everytime I exit the 'NanoMap', I must input "ctrl +c " for total exit. 2010-11-17 02:47 what do you mean? 2010-11-17 02:47 it has has characters left in console? 2010-11-17 02:47 1.  run the "NanoMap -qws" in terminal.  2. exit NanoMap by "ESC". 2010-11-17 02:48 then the command line not return until I send "Ctrl + C" 2010-11-17 02:49 yep. same here 2010-11-17 02:49 moreover, if yuo press some buttons in NanoMap, you then wil see those characters on concolse after you exit 2010-11-17 02:51 xiangfu: is that really important? you are returning back to gmenu2x after you exit NanoMap.. if you run it in console, Ctrl+C is the most frequent key combination anyway :) 2010-11-17 02:52 btw, running build now.. had to rename ncursesdirectory to ncursesw and cleaned up things related to ncurses from Makefile 2010-11-17 02:53 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add more apps entry in gmenu2x, abook, bc, nightsky, sc, vim http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/08534bd 2010-11-17 02:54 well it should exit without ctrl-c, I think 2010-11-17 02:54 xiangfu: you can test Qt with other apps from qt4-demos 2010-11-17 02:55 wolfspraul: it exits, but some crap is left in terminal 2010-11-17 02:55 so you have to ctrl+c to clean up your command line 2010-11-17 02:56 maybe not highest priority, but in general I'd say cleanliness is important :-) 2010-11-17 02:56 there's a lot of strange left-over texts and blinking in general when flipping around apps on the NanoNote 2010-11-17 02:57 but it's not top priority right now I'd say, compared to many lower hanging fruits we can go after 2010-11-17 02:59 xiangfu: try /usr/share/Qt4/demos/textedit/textedit -qws to see how incredibly slow it is :) 2010-11-17 03:00 in fact, X11+gtk1 is faster than Qt 2010-11-17 03:07 kyak: add "/bin/ash --login -c " to inittab or add "source /etc/profile" to  gmenu2x both make NanoMap works. which one do you think is better :) 2010-11-17 03:08 source /etc/profile i think is better.. to avoid creating of parent process of gmenu2x (overhead) 2010-11-17 03:11 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: read the /etc/profile before run gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/6e5fa8c 2010-11-17 03:12 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [gmenu2x] update, read /etc/profile before run gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/dca4939 2010-11-17 03:26 kyak: we are not select qt4-demos by default. I need compile them for test. 2010-11-17 03:27 xiangfu: i have it compiled, can put to somewhere on fidelio 2010-11-17 03:28 oh no i haven't :) 2010-11-17 03:28 cleaned it 2010-11-17 03:29 does it make sense to include them? to quickly make people see what is possible and what is not possible? 2010-11-17 03:29 we continue to have gtkperf in the image, and I think it's nice for that purpose 2010-11-17 03:29 i agree 2010-11-17 03:30 wolfspraul: gtkperf, we can start it but we can not exit normal, must start another shell "kill" it. that why gtkperf not in gmenu2x 2010-11-17 03:30 kyak: what is the different about qt4-demo, and qt4-example ? 2010-11-17 03:32 xiangfu: in my understanding, "demos" are applications, which are ready to use.. "examples" are just samples of different UI elements and Qt technoquies 2010-11-17 03:32 xiangfu: no need to add it as an icon, that's a bit too much 2010-11-17 03:32 I think it's nice for someone who thinks about developing to quickly get an idea of the potential of the platform, or where it stands 2010-11-17 03:33 but that potential developer may very well go to the command line first and start it from there 2010-11-17 03:35 xiangfu: btw, in my somewhat minimal build gtkperf can be started fine, but stardict fails to start.. i'm still trying to figure out what does stardict lack for, since it works in full_system 2010-11-17 03:36 kyak: should we change the "ben-cyrillic" to "y" now? 2010-11-17 03:41 xiangfu: i'm not sure. It makes changes in /etc/profile adding LC_ALL=ru_RU.UTF-8 env, and it also enables keymap switching via "Qi" key.. i don't think everyone needs it.. Somebody can even get confused - like "oh, and what's.. 2010-11-17 03:41 ..that nice key with some Chinese symbol? Oh, no, i'm typing some weird language!".. Let users enable it via opkg install ben-cyrillic 2010-11-17 03:41 kyak: ok. 2010-11-17 03:46 kyak: from the source code. the after display the "loading... ", the stardict try to access network 2010-11-17 03:47 is connected to my laptop at this moment, the network is up and running... from strace, one of the thrteads is segfaulted 2010-11-17 03:48 i think i need to build gdb, because strace is not showing any more info 2010-11-17 03:49 kyak: can you send me the ".config" you using . I will try to test here. 2010-11-17 03:50 kyak: also I found the "Terminal" section not show up in gmenu2x. :( 2010-11-17 03:50 xiangfu: yeah, i know... 2010-11-17 03:51 xiangfu: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/.config_stage15 2010-11-17 03:51 you need to run menuconfig and enable stardict 2010-11-17 03:51 kyak: it would be nice to have cyrillic working by default, same as others like chinese, japanese, korean, hebrew, arab, etc. _BUT_ you are right, we cannot just set LC_ALL to ru_RU 2010-11-17 03:52 so there would need to be some way to switch/cycle through 2010-11-17 03:52 (btw, I also think we should have an easy way to cycle through console fonts, with some hotkey) 2010-11-17 03:52 wolfspraul: i was thinking about some first-time configuration wizard.. let people choose time zone, language etc 2010-11-17 03:53 sure, and it could be re-run from an icon in gmenu2x 2010-11-17 03:54 right 2010-11-17 03:54 but I do think more languages should be preinstalled in the image first, we do have space for some fonts and keymappings and stuff 2010-11-17 03:54 cyrillic definitely 2010-11-17 03:54 maybe it could be done in Qt, since we have it running :) 2010-11-17 03:54 another thing . we should add "poweroff" in gmenu2x , right? :) 2010-11-17 03:54 then we also have lots of customers in Japan 2010-11-17 03:54 so better out-of-the-box Japanese would be cool 2010-11-17 03:55 well let's start with cyrillic, since we have you :-) 2010-11-17 03:55 run fbterm, get Japanese display support :) 2010-11-17 03:55 get that working very well... 2010-11-17 03:55 yes sure 2010-11-17 03:55 but we also need to have the fonts installed, needs to be thought through a little 2010-11-17 03:55 we get there 2010-11-17 03:57 xiangfu: we have a real button for power off :) 2010-11-17 03:57 maybe for "reboot" 2010-11-17 03:57 ? 2010-11-17 04:05 kyak: maybe. reboot, suspend, poweroff, .. :) 2010-11-17 04:07 why not? i wonder if there is a way to ask user to confirm his action in gmenu2x 2010-11-17 04:07 or maybe just to have a simple Qt wrapper for all those reboot, suspend, poweroff 2010-11-17 04:08 reboot is just off & on, no? 2010-11-17 04:09 suspend - ideally the nano could do that himself on inactivity, until then or to expedite it there may be a key... 2010-11-17 04:09 wolfspraul: while the NanoNote reboot. we can press "U", it's a easy way to goto usbboot mode. 2010-11-17 04:10 he 2010-11-17 04:10 yes :-) 2010-11-17 04:11 I was wondering whether we need 2 different actions - off & reboot. Or just 'off'. 2010-11-17 04:11 reboot = off + on, no need for a special action, imo 2010-11-17 04:11 wolfspraul: i use "reboot" pretty oftern.. it's faster than turning off, the holding the button to turn it on... 2010-11-17 04:11 ok then :-) 2010-11-17 04:12 xiangfu: regarding the suspend, i noticed that the screen won't go blank when gmenu2x is started 2010-11-17 04:12 kyak: when we press POWER buttion. there is a hardware delay. that's why it's slow. :( 2010-11-17 04:13 xiangfu: btw, is it necessary to delay those 3 seconds before start? is it done to prevent turning on by accident? 2010-11-17 04:14 xiangfu: oh, another idea - have the brightness control in gmenu2x :) since you implemented it. 2010-11-17 04:14 maybe two buttons - increase 5 % and decrease 5% 2010-11-17 04:17 kyak: in gmenu2x there is one setting option. "LcdBacklight" 0 ~ 100. 2010-11-17 04:17 kyak: we just need change the gmen2x code to implement it 2010-11-17 04:17 does it work? 2010-11-17 04:17 so i thought :) 2010-11-17 04:19 kyak: seems we just need change one line :fopen("/sys/class/backlight/pwm-backlight/brightness", "w+");  gmenu2x.cpp:151: 2010-11-17 04:20 xiangfu: is there some hotkey to change the brightnes? or how it is done? 2010-11-17 04:20 or it only changes when you start some application? 2010-11-17 04:21 gmenu2x source - would be great if it realyl was that easy :) 2010-11-17 04:22 kyak: if we have "cmdpad" or "triggerhappy hotkeydaemon" then it's easy create hotkey. 2010-11-17 04:26 xiangfu: what happened to triggerhappy upstream? 2010-11-17 04:26 if they don't add it, let's just add it in openwrt-packages then it doesn't matter how slow upstream is :-) 2010-11-17 04:27 wolfspraul: Florian have reply the email says, it's ok. but nobody have commit it to upstream. 2010-11-17 04:27 kyak: about the turn on/off speed, I doubt it's that much of a hardware issue, although individual units may differ in the speed. but I can tell you for sure that the proprietary software we are replacing is much snappier and faster in both turn on and turn off. 2010-11-17 04:27 for the proprietary software, you see a reaction (boot screen) after < 1 second for sure when turning on. 2010-11-17 04:28 basically you press the button down, and before you lift your finger back up you see a reaction 2010-11-17 04:28 it boots to a fully working system in ca. 4 seconds 2010-11-17 04:28 turn off < 1 second for sure as well, maybe even < .5 seconds 2010-11-17 04:29 so that's the gold standard :-) 2010-11-17 04:29 xiangfu: I saw that mail, well if nobody applies it then I suggest we just move forward in openwrt-packages 2010-11-17 04:29 wolfspraul: ok. 2010-11-17 04:29 it doesn't cost us much time to add it there (10 minutes or so), and if upstream adds it fine, it takes another 10 min to remove. 2010-11-17 04:30 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the brightness file path to NanoNote http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/be9c6b9 2010-11-17 04:30 and it becomes more accessible to people, even others can add the openwrt-packages feed if they like 2010-11-17 04:32 [commit] Stefan Tomanek: add triggerhappy hotkey daemon http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4dcfd38 2010-11-17 04:46 kyak: the brightness setting in gmen2x works pretty good 2010-11-17 04:50 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: set default backlight to 25% http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/a4b8aa4 2010-11-17 04:57 wolfspraul: understood about turn on/off 2010-11-17 04:58 xiangfu: good! will check it.. 2010-11-17 05:00 [commit] kyak: removed ncurses completely; have ncursesw build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/057dd6a 2010-11-17 05:00 [commit] kyak: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/dc9a534 2010-11-17 05:01 xiangfu: wolfspraul ncursesw should build fine now, no conflicts with package/ncurses 2010-11-17 05:01 great 2010-11-17 05:01 let's see whether mirko is still happy as well 2010-11-17 05:01 of course 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: add layer that displays  points of interest from a .osm file http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/2d6e62a 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: add monav plugins from http://code.google.com/p/monav/ and use them to calculate routes http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/e18428c 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: draw start and end markers only when they are set http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/fd81fcf 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: emit a signal if the gps device got a fix http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/0dd2f33 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: draw different symbol if gps device got no fix http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/889c3fb 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: use monav plugin to do address look ups http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/a8c6360 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: move route marker only if routing information is available for that point http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/6c6fabb 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: do not crash if plugins could not be loaded http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/8a33464 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: do not crash if no city is selected http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/223efe7 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: a little start at getting routing directions http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/5e06ce0 2010-11-17 05:35 [commit] Niels: draw icons of the points of interest loaded from a .osm file http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/bdecafa 2010-11-17 05:37 wow that's so cool 2010-11-17 05:38 I want to make a list of cities where our customers live, and include maps of those cities :-) 2010-11-17 05:50 wolfspraul: maps are in png, and they occupy rather much space :) for example, it took around 1 Gb to download Frankfurt and suburbs to the maximum zoom level 2010-11-17 05:51 kyak: well let's see. we start, learn, improve, etc. 2010-11-17 05:51 I'm a huge believe in OpenStreetMap 2010-11-17 05:51 believer 2010-11-17 05:51 nice commit to NanoMap above, need to update it in pacakges,too 2010-11-17 05:51 OpenStreetMap is reat 2010-11-17 05:51 *great 2010-11-17 05:51 just the beginning 2010-11-17 05:51 I think it will be bigger and more meaningful than Wikipedia, say in 10 years 2010-11-17 05:51 we live in our environment after all :-) 2010-11-17 05:52 kristianpaul: (video on milkymist, and others) http://milkymist.uservoice.com (or better, send a patch :p) 2010-11-17 05:55 i wonder how and where Niels is using NanoMap 2010-11-17 05:55 he added a lot of GPS support 2010-11-17 05:56 looks like NanoMap is tending to a desktop application :) 2010-11-17 05:57 latest git version won't compile -\ 2010-11-17 05:57 error: QObject: No such file or directory 2010-11-17 06:01 kyak: hmm :-) 2010-11-17 06:01 it's still called NanoMap, so let's hope for the best... 2010-11-17 06:12 i think Niels was not testing with Ben -\ 2010-11-17 06:12 it's broken at least from Oct-30 2010-11-17 06:15 ok let's hope the memory requirements don't go through the roof 2010-11-17 06:15 and general speed etc. 2010-11-17 06:15 we see 2010-11-17 06:27 [commit] kyak: added qt4-demos and qt4-examples to full_system http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/dc0a850 2010-11-17 06:41 [commit] kyak: updated gmenu2x to latest git. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/15da1f0 2010-11-17 06:41 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [gmenu2x] update http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c68f12b 2010-11-17 06:41 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [gmenu2x] update to 20101115 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/812dd90 2010-11-17 06:41 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [gmenu2x] update, read /etc/profile before run gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1ba8cb6 2010-11-17 06:43 wolfspraul: do you know why http://downloads.qi-hw.com/ is not working? :) 2010-11-17 06:43 kyak: not setup 2010-11-17 06:44 qi-hw.com was only meant to work for selected URLs, as a shortener 2010-11-17 06:44 same as fidelio.qi-hw.com 2010-11-17 06:44 same 2010-11-17 06:44 ah ok 2010-11-17 06:44 I mean if you like short urls, can can add those 2010-11-17 06:44 but then we can even do qi-hw.com/f for fidelio :-) 2010-11-17 06:44 but it adds maintenance overhead, so I do the short URLs one by one 2010-11-17 06:45 also I don't want multiple urls pointing to the same place, it always causes headaches later 2010-11-17 06:45 this makes sense 2010-11-17 06:45 I setup qi-hw.com only for the commitlog 2010-11-17 06:46 so the lines coming out here in IRC are short, make sense, but are valid/active urls people can click on 2010-11-17 06:46 yeah.. i remember that 2010-11-17 06:47 don't bother, i was just wondering if this is ok 2010-11-17 07:16 B_Lizzard: hi! how's your OE-based distro going? 2010-11-17 07:16 Fine, fine 2010-11-17 07:16 Made some optimizations here and there 2010-11-17 07:17 I'll need to start working on some applications 2010-11-17 07:17 PIM and the like 2010-11-17 07:17 oh, great.. is PIM an input method daemon? 2010-11-17 07:21 B_Lizzard: i remember you had a nice shutdown dialog. Is it Qt? Did you release the source code? i think it would be nice having this in openwrt... 2010-11-17 07:21 kyak, Personal Information Manager 2010-11-17 07:21 Contacts, Calendar etc 2010-11-17 07:22 kyak that's just a shell script 2010-11-17 07:22 ah, yes, it's defintiely a worthy application.. could be tricky to fit it to 320x240 though 2010-11-17 07:22 B_Lizzard: a shell script? what does it use as a graphics? 2010-11-17 07:22 [commit] Mirko Vogt: remove since it went upstream http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/18ed9b5 2010-11-17 07:23 xdialog 2010-11-17 07:23 i see.. some X11 thingy, obviously 2010-11-17 07:24 uh huh 2010-11-17 07:30 B_Lizzard: let me know when you have something new and interesting, i'm willing to test. Always many new ideas from jlime guys :) 2010-11-17 07:31 :) 2010-11-17 07:31 thanks, I sure will 2010-11-17 07:58 kyak: btw, when installing packages, does openwrt use opkg, like jlime does ? i.e., do you also have the "opkg needs swap to even run" problem ? 2010-11-17 07:58 openwrt uses opkg 2010-11-17 07:59 openwrt runs fine without swap 2010-11-17 07:59 :) 2010-11-17 07:59 hmm. maybe that's just because there are fewer packages :) 2010-11-17 08:01 but you're using the same. that's already good. thanks. 2010-11-17 08:14 [commit] Niels: first try to fix building with OpenWRT toolchain that does not include QtCore and QtGui in the include path http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/da88ec2 2010-11-17 08:22 [commit] Niels: second try http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/88239a2 2010-11-17 08:24 wpwrak: what are you using yourself with your Ben? 2010-11-17 08:24 wpwrak: i've noticed your increased interest to jlime toolchain recently :L) 2010-11-17 08:26 kyak: for now, my bens still have openwrt in NAND. one of them now has a uSD with jlime. (the other is glued to a board, waiting for the cnc mill to become available and the pcb scan to proceed) 2010-11-17 08:27 what's cnc mill? 2010-11-17 08:27 my plan is to migrate to jlime, mainly because of the much larger choice of packages 2010-11-17 08:27 how long does it take for one scan? 2010-11-17 08:27 what are the packages that you need and they are not in openwrt? 2010-11-17 08:27 many questions :) 2010-11-17 08:28 kyak: this kind of device: http://www.rolanddga.com/products/scanners/mdx15/ 2010-11-17 08:29 you don't have this at home, do you? :) 2010-11-17 08:29 kyak: (packages) nothing specific, because i haven;t done much with the ben yet. it's just very likely that i'll eventually run into things that jlime/OE has that openwrt doesn't. 2010-11-17 08:29 kyak: sure i do :) 2010-11-17 08:30 it's not as monstrous as you may think. a bit larger than a printer. 2010-11-17 08:30 wpwrak: my opinion: openwrt has around ten times less pacakges than OE, but it doesn't matter since openwrt is used by people and their needs are similar. howvere, with OE you have high changes to run into application that.. 2010-11-17 08:30 ..might not work at all because it's untested 2010-11-17 08:31 kyak: it lives is a box with thick sound-proof walls. so i can even do some light work a night, without getting death threats from the neighbours :) 2010-11-17 08:31 wpwrak: show us a pic sometime :) 2010-11-17 08:33 wolfgang took one when he was visiting earlier this year: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Roland_MDX-15_scanning_nanonote.jpg 2010-11-17 08:33 my point is - out of 2678 packages of openwrt, you should find all what you need 2010-11-17 08:33 if you don't then you'll port  :) 2010-11-17 08:34 the picture shows the device scanning a ben. here's the result of some of the milling it did (mold for counterweights): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/cw/cw-mold.jpg 2010-11-17 08:34 wpwrak: indeed not a big machine at all! 2010-11-17 08:34 wpwrak: oh! it "prints" in wood? 2010-11-17 08:34 i though it was plastic 2010-11-17 08:35 oh, i got it wrong... it's a scanner, not a printer 2010-11-17 08:35 it mills :-) it's a subtractive process, no additive. kristianpaul's machine "prints". mine has a "drill" that removes material 2010-11-17 08:36 it's scanner and mill. it has two different heads. when i install the scan head, it's a scanner. when i remove the scan head and install the milling head, it's a mill. 2010-11-17 08:36 does it create 3D models while it mills? or it uses 3D models to mill? 2010-11-17 08:36 it moves the head along a so-called toolpath. the result depends on what that toolpath looks like. 2010-11-17 08:36 cool.. what was your aim when you bought it? 2010-11-17 08:37 e.g., the mold was made by removing wood in a sequence of layers. i also cut pcbs with it, etc. 2010-11-17 08:38 (pcb) e.g., these pcbs were cut with the mill: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/f32x/c2ben-run1.jpg 2010-11-17 08:38 or this one http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusd/tethered.jpg 2010-11-17 08:38 etc. 2010-11-17 08:39 (aim) mainly to learn about cnc an to be able to make things like cases 2010-11-17 08:39 what about the stripes on PCBs? 2010-11-17 08:40 how the "got inside"? 2010-11-17 08:40 *they 2010-11-17 08:40 you mean the traces ? (the copper, covered with tin) 2010-11-17 08:40 yeah, those 2010-11-17 08:40 they're not inside. they're on top of the board. 2010-11-17 08:40 you just glued it? 2010-11-17 08:41 the boards come covered with copper. then i "print" the layout on the copper and etch away the copper i don't needs. 2010-11-17 08:41 ah! 2010-11-17 08:41 very intestering.. can you that with knife? :) 2010-11-17 08:42 "print" = i print the layout on a special paper with a laser printer, then transfer it with heat+pressure (e.g., with a clothes iron) to the PCB 2010-11-17 08:42 etching is a chemical process :) i use a mixture of peroxide and muriatic acid 2010-11-17 08:43 so you actually burn those traces out 2010-11-17 08:43 it's not as scary as it may sound :) 2010-11-17 08:43 not cutting them 2010-11-17 08:43 not burning. etching. 2010-11-17 08:43 ok, etching :) 2010-11-17 08:43 the transfer of the layout is just hot enough to transfer the toner, not to affect board or copper 2010-11-17 08:43 it's the acid that does the work :) 2010-11-17 08:44 so you're actually to produce your home-made PCBs... 2010-11-17 08:44 *able to produce 2010-11-17 08:44 this is awesome 2010-11-17 08:44 yup 2010-11-17 08:44 it's a nice capability to have :) 2010-11-17 08:44 how much does it cost? 2010-11-17 08:44 one PCB 2010-11-17 08:45 duh. hard to calculate. 2010-11-17 08:45 do you include machine use ? tool use ? (tool = the "drill") work ? 2010-11-17 08:45 but much less than if you have ordered in on factory? 2010-11-17 08:46 no idea ;-) probably. and it's fast. i can go from layout on the pc to having the board ready for soldering within about an hour. 2010-11-17 08:46 built emacs... what should be do?.. I just learnt C-x C-c :) 2010-11-17 08:46 include the PCB cost and chemical costs (so only expendables) 2010-11-17 08:46 or consumables 2010-11-17 08:46 however it's called :) 2010-11-17 08:47 rafa: take care not to get RSI :) 2010-11-17 08:48 use vim for your own good 2010-11-17 08:48 the chemicals are very cheap. the boards ... about USD 6 for a 10x15 cm board. how many circuits i can make from that one depends on the size of the circuit. 2010-11-17 08:48 something between 2 and 12 :) 2010-11-17 08:49 wpwrak: do i understand correct that you don't need the millling machine to do etching? 2010-11-17 08:49 rafa: i was about to give you a nice example, but then i noticed that i don't have an emacs on any of my machines ;-) 2010-11-17 08:49 rafa: i think Esc X doctor  should do something nice 2010-11-17 08:50 kyak: the mill is just for cutting the board. i could also do this with a dremel if i wanted to. of course, with the mill it's much more precise. 2010-11-17 08:50 kyak: and boards with a compex shape are no fun with a dremel 2010-11-17 08:51 do you use some kind of press to put that laser printing on PCB? 2010-11-17 08:51 kyak: there is no way Werner can beat costs, probably not even on 1 PCB. but the 2 main advantages are gaining knowledge, and turnaround speed 2010-11-17 08:51 kyak: e.g., in this case: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/board-100813.jpg 2010-11-17 08:51 kyak: ;-)) 2010-11-17 08:52 wolfspraul: are you saying that one factory made PCB is cheaper than 6 USD? (not mass production)? 2010-11-17 08:52 keep in mind what Werner can do there :-) 2-layer etc 2010-11-17 08:52 wpwrak: I ran.. it is saying me : "I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice." 2010-11-17 08:52 check out batchpcb.com, for example 2010-11-17 08:53 wolfspraul: actually, having small quantities of boards made isn't that cheap. after all, they need to recover their setup cost 2010-11-17 08:53 wpwrak: woww! :D 2010-11-17 08:53 wpwrak: and it has colors :) 2010-11-17 08:53 wpwrak: very nice.. 2010-11-17 08:53 wolfspraul: and the ultra-cheap places are a fedex away ... 2010-11-17 08:53 yes true, fedex = 30+ USD 2010-11-17 08:53 or it's terribly slow again 2010-11-17 08:53 is there a way to do 2-layer PCBs at home? :) 2010-11-17 08:54 your process has some unbeatable advantages, like I said the 2 that stand out for me are knowledge and turnaround speed 2010-11-17 08:54 glue together two 1-layers PCBs :) 2010-11-17 08:54 for example for developing a PCB antenna :-) 2010-11-17 08:54 wolfspraul: yup. they're the key advantages, particularly turnaround. 2010-11-17 08:54 for something like batchpcb.com you will need x weeks, who knows how many 2010-11-17 08:55 it's super rapid indeed 2010-11-17 08:55 they bundle boards together 2010-11-17 08:55 kyak: 2 layers is not a problem. you can buy boards that have copper on both sides. then you apply the same process on both sides. either at the same time or sequentially. 2010-11-17 08:55 wpwrak: what about 4? 2010-11-17 08:55 kyak: both at the same time is faster, sequentially is more precise. so you can choose :) 2010-11-17 08:55 kyak: > 2 is a very very different story .... 2010-11-17 08:55 wpwrak: what I meant is at 4 layer, or more, HDI and what not, it's obvious that home-DIY is not an option. not today, not tomorrow. who knows when, if ever... 2010-11-17 08:56 but that's not the point, the point is to focus on where it excels, and it does for many very specific problems 2010-11-17 08:56 wolfspraul: yup. 4 layers, small vias, etc., all that's not an option, unfortunately 2010-11-17 08:57 wolfspraul: there's some gruesome process for doing via "properly" but it's with quite a lot of chemistry. metal-acid solutions and such. 2010-11-17 08:57 wpwrak: do you call the connection between PCBs a "via"? 2010-11-17 08:58 batchpcb.com has a 10 USD setup fee, 2.50 USD / square inch for 2 layer, plus shipping 2010-11-17 08:58 i always called it a "hole" 2010-11-17 08:58 or whatever :) 2010-11-17 08:58 between l[3~;ayers 2010-11-17 08:58 and you can even do 4-layer at batchpcb at 8 USD / square inch 2010-11-17 08:58 terminal glitch 2010-11-17 08:59 in the US it's probably a really cheap option, since they can ship with US Postal mail 2010-11-17 08:59 and multilayer needs more chemistry, high pressure, and so on. you can probably do it at home if you're really determined. powerful presses aren't so expensive. but it turns what would be a relatively straightforward and easily automated process into a lot more manual work. and one problem of the manual bits is their error rate. 2010-11-17 08:59 kyak: via = hole with copper that connects both sides 2010-11-17 09:00 wpwrak: thanks ;) i ahve to translate sometimes things to English and i called that "interconnection hole" 2010-11-17 09:00 but i was understood :) 2010-11-17 09:00 kyak: yeah, it's just understandable :) 2010-11-17 09:01 rafa: and, did it help ? ;-)) 2010-11-17 09:01 can anyone assist me with an asus motherboard purchase? 2010-11-17 09:02 wpwrak: i assume you want rafa to run into one of your tricks, don't you? :) 2010-11-17 09:02 kyak: naw, i just showed him something where emacs is better than vi :) 2010-11-17 09:03 that's a hotkey in emacs to clean swipe your hard disk and call a doctor automatically :) 2010-11-17 09:03 wpwrak: I need to re read the whole chat with the doctor... the nn screen is small.. but naving emacs text is not hard it seems. He is mainly saying me that I am the problem!!.. Is there some way to change the psychotherapist there? :) 2010-11-17 09:05 rafa: we should invite silvina to write an update for doctor.el ;-) 2010-11-17 09:07 rafa: oh, i heard a story that there's some guy who did the following experiment: he got two psychiatrists and told each the other was delusional, thinking he was a psychiatrist. then he set them loose on each other ;-) alas, i don't know how this turned out 2010-11-17 09:07 in turned out in some butt kicked 2010-11-17 09:08 and double bill :) 2010-11-17 09:08 kyak: i'm not sure this is an approved treatment method. they do have electroshocks, though ... 2010-11-17 09:08 wpwrak: silvina would do better questions for sure :) 2010-11-17 09:10 hmm i just noticed there are three simultaneous builds on build host :) 2010-11-17 09:10 i stopped mine for good 2010-11-17 09:11 kyak: why? too slow? 2010-11-17 09:11 pretty slow yes 2010-11-17 09:11 hmm 2010-11-17 09:12 load average: 2.47, 2.85, 2.99 2010-11-17 09:13 good, at least we are not wasting money 2010-11-17 09:13 not a bit of it! :) 2010-11-17 09:14 well let's see 2010-11-17 09:14 the buildhost will probably get more work over time 2010-11-17 09:14 say for example if we do the planned layout history brdhist 2010-11-17 09:14 or other server-side scripted stuff 2010-11-17 09:15 so maybe if we are all still happily building there, it's time for a more powerful machine :-) 2010-11-17 09:15 kyak: but right now I'd say if you just wait a day or so, it should slow down. mirko is trying to get his release out, and xiangfu is constantly building something because he plays with the config files so much. 2010-11-17 09:16 we'll eventually manage to bog it down ;-) 2010-11-17 09:16 when I play/test the config files, I also like to just let the buildhost crunch on them... slow or not... so I can focus on more low-latency stuff on my notebook 2010-11-17 09:16 wolfspraul: not a problem.. i'm building on my host, and buildhost is interesting to me because it's 64bit. But i don't really have anything to test right now 2010-11-17 09:16 sure sure, but I want you to be happy about the buildhost, not turn away in disgust :-) 2010-11-17 09:16 so please keep the feedback coming 2010-11-17 09:16 I was a bit stingy with the 29 EUR buildhost, because I first wanted to see how much use we can squeeze out of the machine 2010-11-17 09:17 but now we already use it for 2 really nice use cases: schhist, and people building openwrt images 2010-11-17 09:17 wolfspraul: btw, you mentioned that you're planning to do more things with boom sometime soon. about when, and what ? i'd like to make sure to set aside a bit of time for that. 2010-11-17 09:17 ah 2010-11-17 09:17 my todo juggling 2010-11-17 09:17 yes I'd love to start 2010-11-17 09:18 your Xue TODO list is awesome! 2010-11-17 09:18 thanks :) i notice that it silenced them ... 2010-11-17 09:18 I would most likely start there. 2010-11-17 09:18 Andres already gave me commit permission, he he 2010-11-17 09:18 big mistake! :-) 2010-11-17 09:18 *grin* 2010-11-17 09:19 I will apply my super-superficial jtag-serial skills on that much bigger project now :-) 2010-11-17 09:19 good luck with the beads/inductors/filters ! ;-) 2010-11-17 09:19 i notice that they're a recurrent problem :) 2010-11-17 09:19 sure 2010-11-17 09:19 many things to learn 2010-11-17 09:19 but it's OK 2010-11-17 09:19 those are valuable missing pieces in our copyleft hardware story 2010-11-17 09:19 so I'm up for it 2010-11-17 09:20 about timing, don't know 2010-11-17 09:20 no need to reserve time for my stupid questions 2010-11-17 09:20 I come from the manufacturing side 2010-11-17 09:20 first priority is still milkymist one rc2 2010-11-17 09:20 many things moving there, like roh's cases, jtag-serial daughterboards, power adapters (local regulations), etc. etc. 2010-11-17 09:20 wolfspraul: what xue todo list? 2010-11-17 09:21 after that is Xue, but I will probably start to get my hands dirty before Adam jumps into Xue 2010-11-17 09:21 (timing) it's about having time to enhance boom where it's needed and such. e.g., by adding groups of components and such. i basically work these things on an on demand basis. 2010-11-17 09:21 that is, if i don't need anything new, very little happens. 2010-11-17 09:22 (power adapter) oh dear. you let yourself get caught in this quagmire ... 2010-11-17 09:22 lekernel: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-November/006097.html 2010-11-17 09:22 wpwrak: don't worry I understand that 2010-11-17 09:22 we cannot all point fingers at Werner 2010-11-17 09:22 I think I get the architecture of boom, it has a strong and extendable design 2010-11-17 09:23 ah, yes 2010-11-17 09:23 wolfspraul: (boom) i also want to rewrite the whole boom core in C. it's already getting quite slow and we're not nearly at a comprehensive set of components. 2010-11-17 09:23 true, it's slow, but then again, we are still in the < 30 seconds range 2010-11-17 09:23 bearable 2010-11-17 09:24 wolfspraul: (boom) and then, add some goodies like a part database browser. right now, it's too hard to find things there. 2010-11-17 09:24 I got a whole 'book' full of beads/filters, if you have any use for that :-P 2010-11-17 09:25 DocScrutinizer: hey Joerg! 2010-11-17 09:25 we need you! :-) 2010-11-17 09:26 are you going to 27c3 btw? 2010-11-17 09:26 nope, no money 2010-11-17 09:26 is Dieter going? 2010-11-17 09:26 don't know 2010-11-17 09:26 then, the workflow also has some issues. e.g., right now, i let it proceed past errors, so that one can ignore problems at one stage the work on bringing the things that almost work to completion. this is nice to far. but it has the disadvantage that it's easy to overlook problems. example: if a component can't be matched, it will not be fed to the inventory lookup. so you get a BOM simply without that component, with only a warning in 2010-11-17 09:26 an early stage but no further complaint. 2010-11-17 09:28 so lots of little issues that need addressing at some point in time. just let me know when you'll embark on that journey and i can do a bit of trailblazing. easier for you if things get cleaned up before you hit the problems than encountering them and being uncertain whether they're part of the design or just bug :) 2010-11-17 09:28 DocScrutinizer: ok let me email a friend of mine in Berlin see whether I can find a cheap place to crash 2010-11-17 09:28 I start to like the underground life :-) 2010-11-17 09:29 I would love to hookup and get an update on things, maybe we find a way... 2010-11-17 09:30 wolfspraul: don't bother about a place to stay. I probably could find such place. But tickets were sold 11.11. and travel, diner etc aren't for free 2010-11-17 09:31 I'm not planning to stand in line for those tickets anyway :-) 2010-11-17 09:31 what's 27c3? 2010-11-17 09:31 let me see what I can do, also find out whether Dieter is going 2010-11-17 09:31 wolfspraul: how do you plan to sneak in ? 2010-11-17 09:31 I haven't started any serious 27c3 planning yet 2010-11-17 09:32 no sneak in, I just stay out 2010-11-17 09:32 :) 2010-11-17 09:32 I don't like how they are managing access anyway. I like public space. 2010-11-17 09:32 should be held in a public space I think. 2010-11-17 09:32 kyak: world's largest hacker meeting 2010-11-17 09:33 wolfspraul:  nano could do that himself on inactivity <- power button press 1s suspend, more  poweroff 2010-11-17 09:33 DocScrutinizer: it's soo cool google doesn't know it ;) 2010-11-17 09:33 wolfspraul: propietary sofware for ben have suspend support? 2010-11-17 09:33 or maybe at least the most honored one 2010-11-17 09:33 good question don't know 2010-11-17 09:33 probably not, it's so fast on power on/off 2010-11-17 09:33 kyak: nanomap  <- hope it sill fast and seems to be right now 2010-11-17 09:34 http://events.ccc.de/ 2010-11-17 09:34 wolfspraul: yeah current OE?Jlime image wich have suspend support thanks to larsc dies after some hours 2010-11-17 09:34 http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/wiki/Main_Page 2010-11-17 09:34 may be power arranage was not tought for suspends stabillity.. 2010-11-17 09:34 arrange* 2010-11-17 09:35 wprak jlime, ohh i tought you had bad time in openmoko mostly because bitbake bloatness ?... 2010-11-17 09:35 wpwrak: but indeed lots of packages are always good :) 2010-11-17 09:35 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add wallpapers from community contributions http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/7d1a699 2010-11-17 09:36 lekernel: feature request page for milkymist looks empty, are u blogging or telling the world about it? :-) 2010-11-17 09:37 kristianpaul: i had a horrible time at OM with OE until i stopped trying to use it as a build environment :) 2010-11-17 09:37 kyak: 27c3 nice event i discovert it last year, seems germany is a good place for geeks or related people :) 2010-11-17 09:37 kristianpaul: once others provided the packages and i could just ask them for anything i needed and tell them where i kept my code and they would package it for me, things went very smoothly 2010-11-17 09:38 kristianpaul: so the key to OE success is outsourcing ;-) 2010-11-17 09:38 wpwrak: sure relay in others is good :) 2010-11-17 09:38 thanks rafa B_Lizzard !! :) 2010-11-17 09:39 wpwrak: ah you made deals with rafa just because both live near ;-) 2010-11-17 09:39 kristianpaul: yeah, looks interesting! though geeks are usually antisocial and only gather together to drink beer ;) 2010-11-17 09:39 wolfspraul: indeed why bother when device is really fast powering up 2010-11-17 09:39 kyak: you'd be surprised 2010-11-17 09:40 wolfspraul: about this propietary sofware, it is a OS or a standalone app? i'm just curios what they find better to run on the ben 2010-11-17 09:40 not sure, probably some microkernel plus apps 2010-11-17 09:40 I don't know much about it, never cared 2010-11-17 09:40 microkernel :D 2010-11-17 09:40 sure 2010-11-17 09:40 I could ask and all, but why... 2010-11-17 09:41 yeah time wasted 2010-11-17 09:41 it works well though, and still beats us on several key metrics 2010-11-17 09:41 like screen stability (there is still more flickering with Linux than with the proprietary sw), boot time, shutdown time 2010-11-17 09:41 kristianpaul: naw, it's coincidence that rafa is doing just what i like :) 2010-11-17 09:41 when you are talking about "proprietary software" for Ben, you mean it's original electronic disctionary instance? 2010-11-17 09:42 but we got A LOT closer over the course of last year, and I am optimistic about the future 2010-11-17 09:42 wolfspraul: at least have a better idea of its featires in order to know in wich it still beating 2010-11-17 09:42 yes, it's a whole suite of software 2010-11-17 09:42 including makeup tips for girls and what not 2010-11-17 09:42 it's nice, definitely a nice package 2010-11-17 09:42 all sorts of useful little things 2010-11-17 09:43 kristianpaul: those 3 stand out, after that we should be OK: screen stability (flicker), boot time, shutdown time 2010-11-17 09:43 :) 2010-11-17 09:44 have fun with screen flicker! 2010-11-17 09:44 a bitch 2010-11-17 09:44 DocScrutinizer: it got much better over time. What we have today on OpenWrt, and probably also Jlime/Debian is definitely usable 2010-11-17 09:44 1st you need to make sure if it's LCD or backlight 2010-11-17 09:45 Debian? :O 2010-11-17 09:45 ah *probably* 2010-11-17 09:45 seen BL flicker on several devices 2010-11-17 09:45 just when comparing say the latest openWrt image and proprietary software side-by-side, it's still evident that ours has more flickering 2010-11-17 09:46 this does differ slightly from one device to another, but even if you look at 10 of them, we need to admit that for some reason their software produces a more stable image 2010-11-17 09:46 but again, it got A LOT better over the last months 2010-11-17 09:46 it wouldn't even be high on my priority list anymore with where we have it now 2010-11-17 09:46 has it been improved from the software side? 2010-11-17 09:46 I just answered where the proprietary software still beats us, and this is one of them. 2010-11-17 09:46 so it's LCD driver and settings? 2010-11-17 09:46 oh sure, a lot 2010-11-17 09:46 yes 2010-11-17 09:46 drive IC settings, timings, clocks, etc. 2010-11-17 09:47 larsc knows the whole story 2010-11-17 09:47 and scheduler, IRQ handlers... whatnot 2010-11-17 09:47 it's good now, usable! 2010-11-17 09:47 can't we just copy those? ask the original manufacturer about those settings 2010-11-17 09:47 the proprietary sw is still a tad better, that's all 2010-11-17 09:47 it's not so easy, we spent a lot of time on it already 2010-11-17 09:47 screen flicker is good now 2010-11-17 09:47 :-) 2010-11-17 09:48 yeah, a buzz-class problem 2010-11-17 09:48 we have lower hanging fruits to go after 2010-11-17 09:48 kyak: not a bad idea. provided contamination issues aren't a problem 2010-11-17 09:48 though this is fixable by sw it seems 2010-11-17 09:49 settings as in register values aren't (c) anyway 2010-11-17 09:49 read out and copy 2010-11-17 09:49 kyak: printer <- afaik i cant scan ,but i dont really care for that 2010-11-17 09:50 for timing issues caused by IRQ response latency that's a completely different game 2010-11-17 09:51 you might have to do awful things like sync scheduler timedisk to VSYNC 2010-11-17 09:52 ...completely rework IRQ handler structure, process table handling, etc 2010-11-17 09:52 plus investigation/debugging is a nightmare 2010-11-17 09:53 DocScrutinizer: why would IRQ matter ? i think it's flicker of static content, not necessarily flicker caused by updates unsynchronized with vertical blanking 2010-11-17 09:54 No idea about how you manage your framebuffer 2010-11-17 09:54 videobuffer 2010-11-17 09:54 DocScrutinizer: (reg values) the issue with looking at the sources is that they won't just contain the register settings. so someone could claim that you've copied some of the other stuff 2010-11-17 09:54 what is locking what in hw, etc 2010-11-17 09:55 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add nanoterm http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a89e81 2010-11-17 09:56 wpwrak: (flicker) even such nice effects like VDD noise caused by different CPU loads might cause timing jitter on an oscillator... 2010-11-17 09:57 DocScrutinizer: okay, that's evil ;-) but if the original sw doesn't have a problem there, chances are we shouldn't either 2010-11-17 09:57 there's zillions of possible contamination pathes for things like LCD jitter 2010-11-17 09:57 DocScrutinizer: besides, there's an *army* of caps in the LCM ;-) 2010-11-17 09:58 nr1: stop *all* processes, see if flicker changes 2010-11-17 09:58 to rule out it's an actual sw load and operation induced issue 2010-11-17 09:58 agreed 2010-11-17 09:59 i wonder if it's possible to properly quantify the damn thing. that way, one could compare different register settings and such. 2010-11-17 09:59 then go insert NOP into driver loops etc 2010-11-17 10:00 (quantify) that'S another problem that quite resembles buzz issue 2010-11-17 10:01 IOW: sounds like fun 2010-11-17 10:03 to quantify you first need to *understand* the nature of flicker. Do proper video recording - then analyze frame by frame, and exactly spot the differences that cause the flicker 2010-11-17 10:04 will teach you a lot about possible root causes 2010-11-17 10:04 video recording may be tricky. any changes with a photo transistor or such ? 2010-11-17 10:04 chanCes 2010-11-17 10:05 nope, not as long as you don't even know if it's a weird form of interlace flicker aka hsync freq interference, or a moving black/bright bar, or whatever 2010-11-17 10:06 sporadic noise causing a dither of pixels that are off the correct value 2010-11-17 10:07 in either case, you should be able to detect a variation of brightness within a sufficiently small area. granted, with just one "pixel", you won't be able to tell how this relates to adjacent areas 2010-11-17 10:07 or maybe just a VSYNC jitter that makes the img jump up and down 2010-11-17 10:07 okay, perhapt the first step would be to find patterns where it does/doesn't happen 2010-11-17 10:07 yes 2010-11-17 10:08 that ought to tell something about the nature of the flicker 2010-11-17 10:08 and proper video recording and A/B or differential analysis 2010-11-17 10:09 start with a plain white screen and see if it still is flickering 2010-11-17 10:09 do same with a gray screen 2010-11-17 10:09 then go to different checkboard patterns 2010-11-17 10:09 then hline/vline pattern, etc. 2010-11-17 10:10 yup 2010-11-17 10:10 or maybe primary colors first 2010-11-17 10:10 still a crappy video that can be viewed frame by frame is a powerful tool 2010-11-17 10:11 should be done with same freq as VSYNC, or a multiple 2010-11-17 10:12 some few cameras can do slomo 2010-11-17 10:12 may be difficult to find such a camera. i mean without spending money :) 2010-11-17 10:12 even if you can't get slomo/sync, it's still worth a try 2010-11-17 10:13 you may 'test' camaras in shop 2010-11-17 10:14 or visit you nearby peoples' media center 2010-11-17 10:14 you even might strob the BL :-P 2010-11-17 10:14 Hey i have my Canon camera running chdk i cat take shots up to 1/100k aperture speed ! 2010-11-17 10:14 if that may help 2010-11-17 10:15 s/i/it 2010-11-17 10:15 sounds good 2010-11-17 10:15 s/cat/can 2010-11-17 10:15 now if you could sync it to VSYNC... 2010-11-17 10:15 DocScrutinizer: what aperture speed should i try? 2010-11-17 10:16 or flash an LED during VSYNC strobe, and just take enough pictures to get a few that were taken same relative point in time in relation to VSYNC 2010-11-17 10:18 I'd suggest both a aperture time of = one frame of LCD aka VSYNC period, and ultrashort, as short as possible, and hope you catch some unambiguous takes where you can understand what's going on 2010-11-17 10:19 doing this with the patterns mentioned above may be a tedious way to get same results like with a proper slomo cam 2010-11-17 10:20 also scoping LCD bus VSYNC, HSYNC, pixel clock, and data should tell you something 2010-11-17 10:20 will remove the fn-handle project in projects.qi-hardware.com since we have triggerhappy or cmdpad in openwrt which is much better. 2010-11-17 10:20 actually should tell a lot 2010-11-17 10:21 do this for both sw stacks, the flickering and the non-flickering one 2010-11-17 10:22 pst the scope screenshots or data files 2010-11-17 10:22 post* 2010-11-17 10:22 so nerds like me can drool over them 2010-11-17 10:23 that's probably a job for wpwrak 2010-11-17 10:23 as he excels on such tasks 2010-11-17 10:24 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove fn-handle and cmdpad, add triggerhappy http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/63e598b 2010-11-17 10:24 he's currently busy in a completely different war ... 2010-11-17 10:24 wpwrak: btw how's RF noise in your new flat? 2010-11-17 10:25 hmm, about 2 dB ambient, i think. most of the noise seems to be homemade 2010-11-17 10:25 cool 2010-11-17 10:25 much better for scoping, than when living in a giant microwave oven :-P 2010-11-17 10:26 i now filter my antenna signals with: 1) the USRP's tuner, 2) decimation, 3) limit the frequencies in the FFT, 4) throw away too small amplitudes, 5) reject total power that's more than 2 dB from the average, 6) do all this over 100 runs. 2010-11-17 10:27 hah, still that antenna design? 2010-11-17 10:27 (that's for measuring the antenna's frequency-dependent sensitivity) 2010-11-17 10:27 yeah. messy business without the right tools ... 2010-11-17 10:27 toldya, didn't I 2010-11-17 10:28 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove fn-handle http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1cf24a1 2010-11-17 10:28 with the right equipment, it would be connect, press a button, and there it is 2010-11-17 10:28 yep 2010-11-17 10:28 (microwave oven) my scope is quite happy with the new surroundings :) 2010-11-17 10:29 then send some meaningless diagrams to customer, which are puzzled by one diagram not matching the other :-P 2010-11-17 10:29 i'm working on the meaningless diagrams ... 2010-11-17 10:29 ... just did a first full run. now the 2nd is in progress. 2010-11-17 10:29 then i'll see how much the same configuration differs from itself ;-) 2010-11-17 10:29 and add some nonsensical tech speack, and make customer move speaker and eventually abort project 2010-11-17 10:31 hell, if time had bothered to send a "commercial" antenna from arbitrary garmin et al devices to that antenna design house, back when 2010-11-17 10:31 i think i'll just add filters until i get some result. worst case, i reverse the amplitude filter, reject the signal and just average over the noise. that should be nice and even ;-) 2010-11-17 10:31 the GPS ant for gta03 2010-11-17 10:31 s/time/Tim/ 2010-11-17 10:32 you're saying they did their measurements wrong ? 2010-11-17 10:32 sure 2010-11-17 10:32 we spotted that, and clearly told, but nobody cared 2010-11-17 10:32 i remember there were some oddities 2010-11-17 10:32 like the same point in one plane looking quite different in the other plane 2010-11-17 10:33 the value for 0° was differing in X and Y plane 2010-11-17 10:33 yep, exactly 2010-11-17 10:33 but then, i don't know to what extent such things can be expected to happen. e.g., if there's an implied change of polarization 2010-11-17 10:34 well, anyway a "this diagram doesn't 'look' nice enough" isn't a valid rating for a GPS antenna 2010-11-17 10:35 esp if there's quite a lot of other oddities in same test series, that aren't explained at all 2010-11-17 10:35 they shipped some crap as they knew we never can check if it's proper or not 2010-11-17 10:35 you mean OM already had earned a reputation ? ;-) 2010-11-17 10:36 sure 2010-11-17 10:36 that antenna house for sure knew what we possibly can do and what we definitely can't 2010-11-17 10:37 then they knew a lot :) 2010-11-17 10:37 that's not difficult to know 2010-11-17 10:38 i mean the sheer quantity of data. particularly in the latter category :) 2010-11-17 10:38 a) OM was rather open. b) rather noobish in some respects c) we asked for lowest price and probably hadn't any quality requirements 2010-11-17 10:38 yeah, that's true as well :-P 2010-11-17 10:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add poweroff.conf for triggerhappy http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5d74e23 2010-11-17 11:10 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add Berlin as the NanoMap example maps http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d5c1bde 2010-11-17 11:13 nice. reproducible results :) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/refant.png 2010-11-17 11:24 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add nightsky icon png file http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/7b42d08 2010-11-17 11:35 wpwrak: there are two different lines :)  don't understand the hardware :) 2010-11-17 11:37 xiangfu: it's a measurement of the strength of a signal sent from one device to another, at various frequencies. the objective is to found out if there are any frequencies that don't work well. e.g., 2410 doesn't look too good in this example. 2010-11-17 11:38 xiangfu: the two graphs differ only a little, so i think (hope :) that's good enough 2010-11-17 11:38 s/found/find/ 2010-11-17 11:40 -30db looks for a few meters... 2010-11-17 11:40 wpwrak: thanks . 2010-11-17 11:40 how is that in mili Wats ? 2010-11-17 11:41 kristianpaul: decibel of whatever ;-) 2010-11-17 11:41 kristianpaul: the distance is about 3.5 m 2010-11-17 11:43 i don't have any calibrated equipment, so i can't tell what the energy really is. nor can i compensate for frequency-dependent sensitivity of the receiver or the "fixed" antenna 2010-11-17 11:48 kristianpaul: to make it more interesting, the sender is "imperfect", namely an atusb board. so absolute values mean nothing. the only thing that matters are differences at the same frequency. 2010-11-17 11:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/: new tools to run, evaluate, and plot a full frequency scan http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3684c07 2010-11-17 11:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/README: clarified distance between antennas and fixed typos in examples http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b7ad7f2 2010-11-17 11:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/fscan: fail if the directory name begins with a dash http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e31144f 2010-11-17 11:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/plscan: instead of `echo ... sed ...`, just use ${n%%.*} http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/45d5946 2010-11-17 11:52 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/README: described how to perform and evaluate a measurement run http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/66f6ad6 2010-11-17 11:52 good. wolfgang's scripts resist meta-characters :) 2010-11-17 11:53 jajaj 2010-11-17 11:53 wpwrak: you're afraid to accidentally attack qi servers ? ;-) 2010-11-17 11:54 "afraid" may be the wrong word. more like "curious" :) 2010-11-17 11:55 now the same experiment, at 2.1 dB less ... 2010-11-17 11:55 wpwrak: yes sorry, you dont read like a afraid person :) NO way 2010-11-17 11:56 s/a/an 2010-11-17 11:57 ye who enters RF, abandon all fear :) 2010-11-17 12:08 <:) 2010-11-17 12:08 freedom not fear :-) 2010-11-17 12:13 hm, triggerhappy won't build 2010-11-17 12:13 evtable_KEY.h:244: error: 'KEY_RFKILL' undeclared here (not in a function) 2010-11-17 12:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/plscan: truncate title at the last dot, not the first http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/59beaba 2010-11-17 12:15 kyak: i thought you guys were a bit trigger-happy with kicking out all the old stuff so quickly :) 2010-11-17 12:16 triggerhappy makes me sad :) 2010-11-17 12:17 kyak: because it doesn't build ? or because of the work you put in the other stuff ? 2010-11-17 12:51 hmm, i guess i should have squared the values after all. ah well, it's just a scale variation ... 2010-11-17 12:52 (refant is +2.6 dBm, ref-0.5dBm is +0.5 dBm, ref-2.2dBm is -2.2 dBm.) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/refant-txpwr.png 2010-11-17 12:53 now, let's try a PCB antenna :) 2010-11-17 13:08 wpwrak: i didn't put anything into fn-handle, it was xiangfu 2010-11-17 13:23 kyak: so he undid his own work. better for you :) 2010-11-17 13:24 heh yeah 2010-11-17 14:04 ha 2010-11-17 14:04 :/ 2010-11-17 14:05 sige used to have just real output.. 2010-11-17 14:06 so the examples i got for se4110 are slight outdate for se4162 until i get it real data again, or decide to work with complex 2010-11-17 14:07 ah is tricky 2010-11-17 14:07 the decrease some clocks rate to the half 2010-11-17 14:08 hmm good point :) 2010-11-17 14:10 hmm is a code reused from USRP.. 2010-11-17 14:12 got the firmware for the gn3s GPS SiGE dongle 2010-11-17 14:13 [commit] kyak: build abook against ncursesw http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ed2d09c 2010-11-17 14:16 GPIF... ?? 2010-11-17 14:18 [commit] kyak: use more sane 'linux' TERM http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/70c8ce3 2010-11-17 14:18 [commit] kyak: updated Qt keymap http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5818297 2010-11-17 14:18 [commit] kyak: call setfont2 before starting abook http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/21f6b06 2010-11-17 14:18 kyak: had you tried nanomap recently? 2010-11-17 14:19 i did 2010-11-17 14:19 kyak: btw i have new clean system. let me know when the repo is ready to test 2010-11-17 14:19 kyak: how fasts feel? 2010-11-17 14:19 NanoMap is working very good 2010-11-17 14:19 is it last commit or same as some moths ago/ 2010-11-17 14:19 great ! 2010-11-17 14:19 i want try its gpsd support 2010-11-17 14:20 the NanoMap if from September git i think 2010-11-17 14:20 and las time i tried it was outdate 2010-11-17 14:20 heh 2010-11-17 14:20 so it is 2010-11-17 14:20 and i tried copmile upstream version and boom 2010-11-17 14:20 lots of erros and not clear support from Niels 2010-11-17 14:20 i think all is lists.. 2010-11-17 14:20 i think he did something today 2010-11-17 14:20 to make it build in openwrt 2010-11-17 14:20 good ! 2010-11-17 14:21 finally :) 2010-11-17 14:21 kyak: are you using xianfu scripts to compile openwrt? 2010-11-17 14:21 so you can try.. just update the git commit in NanoMap/Makefile 2010-11-17 14:21 no, actually i'm not.. 2010-11-17 14:21 i was thinking get it all over again 2010-11-17 14:21 ok 2010-11-17 14:21 kristianpaul: regarding the repo, it's always ready to test :) 2010-11-17 14:22 hehe 2010-11-17 14:22 i was wating qt issue get solve 2010-11-17 14:22 :) 2010-11-17 14:23 the image right now looks very good 2010-11-17 14:23 some of the most annoying bugs are fixed 2010-11-17 14:24 though i wonder who made that wall paper 2010-11-17 14:24 with Socrate 2010-11-17 14:25 the icons are unreadable! 2010-11-17 14:25 hmm 2010-11-17 14:25 just awfull wallpaper 2010-11-17 14:27 well it looks good in wikicommons 2010-11-17 14:27 but indeed i like the one before it 2010-11-17 14:27 it looks good when you see it on PC screen 2010-11-17 14:28 yeah 2010-11-17 14:28 imaging small icons all around it :) 2010-11-17 14:28 i'll try to make a screenshot ] 2010-11-17 14:28 hehe yeah is fun 2010-11-17 14:39 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/screen.png 2010-11-17 14:39 kristianpaul: judge by yourself, if "alsamixer" text is readable 2010-11-17 14:39 believe me, it looks much worse on the screen 2010-11-17 14:41 :) ...he.. there is an icon for bc ? ;-))) 2010-11-17 14:41 heh 2010-11-17 14:41 rafa: of course :) 2010-11-17 14:41 now.. there is a "ls" missing icon yet 2010-11-17 14:41 the head of the guy si a icon !! 2010-11-17 14:41 [patch] new icon launcher : pwd 2010-11-17 14:41 :D 2010-11-17 14:42 rafa: you're misjudging.. bc is an interactive application 2010-11-17 14:42 who cares if it's console or not 2010-11-17 14:42 so not put wallpaper with heads on it 2010-11-17 14:42 kyak: I use bc every day.. but it is just a command.. still if it has a interactive mode.. :) 2010-11-17 14:43 lynx?? 2010-11-17 14:43 I just would add a shell icon.. and user know what to do 2010-11-17 14:43 ahh 2010-11-17 14:43 rafa: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/master/data/qi_lb60/files/usr/share/gmenu2x/sections 2010-11-17 14:43 what other icons are there :) 2010-11-17 14:43 kyak: if user does not know what bc exists to be ran then he will not know what to do when he runs it 2010-11-17 14:43 now it looks like dingux screen but more blacky ;) 2010-11-17 14:44 try avoid so much console base apps icons 2010-11-17 14:44 *please* 2010-11-17 14:44 rafa: so you are saying that the user can't type 1+2 in the window that will open? 2010-11-17 14:44 at least you made a nice guy like the sound recorder rafa did 2010-11-17 14:44 wich btw is already ported? 2010-11-17 14:45 kristianpaul: i'm not inot the gui thing anyway.. also not interested in drawing icons :) 2010-11-17 14:46 kristianpaul: what's ported you say? 2010-11-17 14:46 kyak: no, the user will not write "1+2" if he runs calc and he does not know what is calc 2010-11-17 14:46 rafa: do you have upstreamed code for the soundrecorder you made in last jlime beta? 2010-11-17 14:47 kyak: sorry.. no calc.. bc.. which is worst 2010-11-17 14:47 the name does not say anything 2010-11-17 14:47 so what? he will discover 2010-11-17 14:47 kristianpaul: it is already there on front your eyes :D.. sound recorder is just a simple script of 20 or 30 lines ;) 2010-11-17 14:48 kristianpaul: let me find the file 2010-11-17 14:48 "GMU" doesn't say anything as well 2010-11-17 14:48 kyak: yes.. sure.. bc is too intuitive :D 2010-11-17 14:48 or lynx 2010-11-17 14:48 what the hell is lynk? 2010-11-17 14:48 *lynx 2010-11-17 14:48 text based browwer 2010-11-17 14:49 browser* 2010-11-17 14:49 kristianpaul: that was irony :) 2010-11-17 14:49 kyak: the user sees the icon.. it says "bc".. cool.. maybe it is a game.. he runs it.. the main bc screen says : 2010-11-17 14:49 bc 1.06.94 2010-11-17 14:49 Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2004, 2006 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 2010-11-17 14:49 This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY. 2010-11-17 14:49 kyak: intuitive 2010-11-17 14:49 For details type `warranty'. 2010-11-17 14:49 kyak: he will start to write " 2+5"  3*4"?  :) 2010-11-17 14:50 kyak: and now the fun part.. the user needs to know how to exit ... 2010-11-17 14:50 kyak: it is 2010-11-17 14:51 bc: ctrl+C nothing.. "exit+ENTER" nothing 2010-11-17 14:51 help+ENTER nothing 2010-11-17 14:51 rafa: ok, i have very small idea about user-friendliness.. 2010-11-17 14:51 ctrl+c will exit btw 2010-11-17 14:52 ^C 2010-11-17 14:52 (interrupt) Exiting bc. 2010-11-17 14:52 take off the baterry always works ;-) 2010-11-17 14:52 kyak: CTRL+C 2010-11-17 14:52 you sure? 2010-11-17 14:52 kristianpaul: battery : yeah ;)) 2010-11-17 14:53 kyak: so it is intuitive if ctrl+c works and he never realized that bc is a calculator? 2010-11-17 14:53 rafa: you are right that "bc" might mean nothing to a regular user. i'm not sure though that there is 1 % of users among 1000 buyers that don't know what bc is 2010-11-17 14:53 and there is certainly noone who doesn't aware about ctrl+c 2010-11-17 14:53 just let the icons with colors kyak 2010-11-17 14:54 kristianpaul: i don't argue, just do those icons :) 2010-11-17 14:54 well i have commit permisions too just wait i got this source code again 2010-11-17 14:54 i meant remove the console based apps 2010-11-17 14:55 kristianpaul: can you check /usr/bin/recorder.sh ? 2010-11-17 14:55 kristianpaul: that file is a simple script which does the recorder application :) 2010-11-17 14:55 kristianpaul: you might want to discuss it with someone else.. i wasn't the one who added them, and i'm good with them 2010-11-17 14:56 in fact, i don't have gmenu2x started by default, so... 2010-11-17 14:56 rafa: damn no i let my ben at home :( 2010-11-17 14:56 rafa: ok 2010-11-17 14:56 kyak: i will 2010-11-17 14:56 writing mail 2010-11-17 14:56 kyak: I have seen users asking how to install applications.. so I am sure that a big % of nn users do not know bc 2010-11-17 14:57 kristianpaul: I can upload the file.. that is okey.. it is just a text file 2010-11-17 14:57 installign applications is a specific thing to every distro 2010-11-17 14:57 kristianpaul: if you want to check now 2010-11-17 14:57 rafa: later :) 2010-11-17 14:57 bc is a common knowledge :) 2010-11-17 14:57 kyak: yes sure :) 2010-11-17 14:59 "Debian is slow, as far as applications... well, I can run emacs. This                                                        " 2010-11-17 14:59 is a huge win. But it is damn slow to power on 2010-11-17 14:59 what? 2010-11-17 14:59 .. 2010-11-17 15:00 long boot time 2010-11-17 15:00 mm nighsky need icon 2010-11-17 15:01 alsamixer.. well it need a better gui 2010-11-17 15:01 indeed 2010-11-17 15:01 hmm 2010-11-17 15:01 abook?? 2010-11-17 15:01 gui for alsamixer is too mcuh :) 2010-11-17 15:02 you should see jlime :D 2010-11-17 15:02 i think i didn't? 2010-11-17 15:02 *you think 2010-11-17 15:04 kristianpaul: qi openwrt can not run X app 2010-11-17 15:04 s 2010-11-17 15:05 ahh 2010-11-17 15:05 kyak: B_Lizzard version in OE 2010-11-17 15:06 i know 2010-11-17 15:07 rafa: is jlime also upstream? 2010-11-17 15:09 telnet, ftp, python, perl, gdb, ed are all interactive.. should have icons= 2010-11-17 15:09 ? 2010-11-17 15:11 kyak: yes and no.. current beta 4 has a lot of ideas already on upstream. Blizzard is doing that work.. if he thinks that some ideas from betas are okey for upstream he sends patches to kriss and kriss push that on OE.. There are other ideas from B_Lizzard which goes to upstream as well. SO well, that is all stuff from jlime.. so yes.. jlime is on upstream 2010-11-17 15:12 rafa: do you know only "hot" and "cold" and never heard about "warm"? A calculator, even console-based, should be available in one button click. It is also reasonable to add some other usefull console apps which a frequently.. 2010-11-17 15:12 kyak: btw, you said that maybe some applications on jlime repo might no work .. can you tell us which ones? (I am talking about repi on qi servers built from OE) 2010-11-17 15:12 ..used. This should be adequate and nobody is trying to add all interactive console apps in gmenu2x. 2010-11-17 15:13 repi=repo 2010-11-17 15:13 rafa: haven't tryed the image from qi repo 2010-11-17 15:13 last time, opkg worked strange 2010-11-17 15:14 also i couldn't mount my datafs with mtd-utils 2010-11-17 15:14 i didn't have a closer look 2010-11-17 15:14 kyak: what do all of that have to do with jlime repo ?mount problems and opkg strange) 2010-11-17 15:15 jlime is mostly interesting with it's applications.. many ideas like nupdf, fbida, whatelse came from jlime 2010-11-17 15:16 kyak: please.. add just a Packages file text on your qi openwrt system with an index of 15000+ packages and your opkg on your qi openwrt will not work. Also.. mount problems to mount datafs is because the kernels in jlime and openwrt has different nand partitions 2010-11-17 15:16 rafa: i installed mtd-utils with opkg from OE. it doesn't work 2010-11-17 15:16 rafa: (bc) if you have only 2000 packages, you can't be picky ;-) 2010-11-17 15:16 this answers your questions "what apps might not work" >) 2010-11-17 15:16 kyak: it is not a problem of mtd-utils.. the problem to mount is because kernels have hardcoded the nand partitions 2010-11-17 15:16 are you sure? 2010-11-17 15:16 kyak: yes 2010-11-17 15:17 i'm not :) 2010-11-17 15:17 it's just ubiattach 2010-11-17 15:17 why would it care? 2010-11-17 15:17 kyak: you can not ubiattach if kernel thinks that partitions are different 2010-11-17 15:17 rafa: correction. you very much hope you can't ... ;-) 2010-11-17 15:18 rafa: i'm not sure i understand you 2010-11-17 15:18 kyak: and that does not answers "what apps mights not work".. because you are wanting to mount a data partitions which kernel does not know 2010-11-17 15:18 this is just your explanation about why this very application doesn't work 2010-11-17 15:19 kyak: mmmh?.. are you a troll? 2010-11-17 15:19 kyak: qi openwrt kernel has a different partition table inside than jlime kernel.. you can not mount your qi partitions on jlime because kernel think different 2010-11-17 15:20 not understandable.. 2010-11-17 15:20 kyak: how exactly do the mtd-utils fail ? maybe you and rafa are talking about different things 2010-11-17 15:20 i can use it as i use "mount" 2010-11-17 15:21 wpwrak: uh.. i don't remember now how exactly it failed 2010-11-17 15:21 ha.. funny 2010-11-17 15:21 kyak: well, which of the mtd utilities did you try to run ? 2010-11-17 15:21 wpwrak: really, don't bother about it.. 2010-11-17 15:22 i guess package cross-use isn't much a priority then ... 2010-11-17 15:23 sleep(); 2010-11-17 15:27 (reading about debian on the list) quite scary ... 2010-11-17 15:28 (regarding the wallpaper) the high-contrast background does indeed look awful 2010-11-17 15:32 wpwrak: saw the mail about NAND speed compared to uSD ? 2010-11-17 15:32 :) 2010-11-17 15:34 kristianpaul: yeah. dunno. someone should benchmark them. 2010-11-17 15:34 wpwrak: the socrates wallpaper looks a bit suspicious as well.. the image looks like a modified version of a socrates picture.. is that CC? 2010-11-17 15:34 kristianpaul: raw (device) and through file system. 2010-11-17 15:34 rafa: apparently yes. wolfgang checked it. 2010-11-17 15:35 wpwrak: good painter then 2010-11-17 15:35 ;) 2010-11-17 15:35 rafa: wee, not CC. i think it's public domain. because its copyright has already expired. 2010-11-17 15:35 s/wee/err/ 2010-11-17 15:36 rafa: is public domain 2010-11-17 15:42 kristianpaul: okey.. in Argentina if you use a public domain stuff for commercial you need to pay somethin to the art national organization.. no idea the exact name in english. in spanish it is "fondo nacional de las arter" 2010-11-17 15:42 artes* 2010-11-17 15:43 hmm 2010-11-17 15:44 wow. they killed public domain ? brilliant concept :) 2010-11-17 15:44 kristianpaul: but I guess that it should be some public domain stuff from argentina 2010-11-17 15:45 kristianpaul: well, it is not clear.. maybe they just want people to pay 2010-11-17 15:46 :P 2010-11-17 15:46 rafa: like with any other taxes ;-) 2010-11-17 15:53 wpwrak: yeah.. better for them if it is not clear 2010-11-17 15:54 so they can get money for anything 2010-11-17 16:25 wpwrak: re. debian speed, I still have to measure boot time and whatnot, but I don't have the feeling it's slow. maybe because I didn't try openwrt/jlime.. 2010-11-17 16:26 but in general quite happy with its responsiveness, specially since I disabled console-setup and stayed with in-kernel fonts 2010-11-17 16:27 matchbox is a bit slow to load, but once there it behaves pretty well (using fbreder on X from time to time) 2010-11-17 16:41 kyak: http://paste.debian.net/100080/ 2010-11-17 16:41 hope u still awake.. 2010-11-17 16:52 calamarz: the swap requirements are a bit scary. and swap usually means slowness ... but well, as long as it doesn't feel slow, nobody cares how much slower it is than it could theoretically be :) 2010-11-17 17:21 [commit] Andres Calderon: BOOKSHELF has been added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/91c1a69 2010-11-17 17:38 hmmm. cable assembly with antenna and cable assembly without antenna (just ending in open U.FL connector) = almost the same signal strength. i don't like that. 2010-11-17 17:42 wpwrak: X-D 2010-11-17 17:45 wpwrak: btw you noticed we ( paul fertser, me) "finished" on N900 hostmode? 2010-11-17 17:46 teaching Nokia what's possible with their hw :-P They always claimed it's not feasible 2010-11-17 17:47 mentorgfx musb-core a bitch, so everything is a bit clumsy still. But basically it 'just works' 2010-11-17 17:48 o/ 2010-11-17 17:52 DocScrutinizer: oh, sounds cool. why did they claim it wasn't possible ? 2010-11-17 17:54 they messed up everything you could 2010-11-17 17:56 hmm, now that sounds vaguely familiar ;-) 2010-11-17 17:56 musb-core has a statemachine. this SM changes to hostmode/A_device on a msg from PHY via ULPI. This msg is sent by PHY when it detects ID pin is gnd. Alas our PHY isn't connected to ID pin 2010-11-17 17:58 they also didn't bother to connect the PHY chip pin ID_IN to a GPIO or sth, they hardwired it to ID state B 2010-11-17 17:58 so you had to override the state machine ? 2010-11-17 17:58 they missed a capacitor for USB VBUS chargepump in PMU 2010-11-17 17:59 yep 2010-11-17 17:59 ;-)) 2010-11-17 17:59 so you added a cap ? 2010-11-17 17:59 nope, I found the charger chip has a boost mode :-D 2010-11-17 17:59 charging reversed :-P 2010-11-17 18:00 oh :) 2010-11-17 18:02 you 'just' need to understand how to play your game with that chip, while fouling the Nokia closed blob BME battery management entity that likes to keep full control over the charger 2010-11-17 18:02 nice platform :) 2010-11-17 18:03 and in the next version, if nokia is still around to make one, it will all be different :) 2010-11-17 18:03 sure 2010-11-17 18:03 it will be friggin meego then 2010-11-17 18:04 though I heard they keep bme for meego :-P 2010-11-17 18:04 *cough* 2010-11-17 18:04 "if everyone hates it, it must be good" :) 2010-11-17 18:05 most secret magic IP about how to charge a LiIon CC/CV X-P 2010-11-17 18:05 i'm sure they greatly advanced the state of the art ;-) 2010-11-17 18:05 while not getting the fact it's actually bq24150 charger chip that does all that 2010-11-17 18:09 the mean part about that is they don't even publish API/ABI specs, so NFC how to manage e.g 911 calls mustn't shut down on bat low, or may proceed even on overtemp. Also no idea how to tell it does proper shutdown, overtemp throttling, and whatnot in a normal situation 2010-11-17 18:09 sure we can go brute force, and shutdown hard on OT / UV 2010-11-17 18:10 but we don't even receive a single word about where OT starts, from Nokia 2010-11-17 18:12 if they would tell us, they might get sued when we manage to kill ourselves in a LiIon explosion  X-P 2010-11-17 18:12 lawyers - MEH 2010-11-17 18:12 well, cya 2010-11-17 18:18 hmm, seems that one of my antennas doesn't work. the other just looks weird. good that i made a pair of them. let's see how this continues ... 2010-11-17 18:19 DocScrutinizer: (lawyers) ah yes, the dark side of liability ... cya 2010-11-17 18:23 (liability) if there was a device that would eliminate all car accidents caused by the driver but would fail in a way that causes an accident at 1% of the current accident rate, that device would not get deployed because the company making the device would be liable for those accidents, which would be particularly disastrous in countries aligned with US laws. better to have 100x the number of fatalities etc. but someone else who has to 2010-11-17 18:23 pay. 2010-11-17 18:26 (for those interested in bad antennas) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/ant120.png 2010-11-17 18:26 wpwrak: the flip side of that is when someone invents a safety device and then mfgs get sued for not deploying it. 2010-11-17 18:26 which is particularly egregious when that device is patented & bears royalties 2010-11-17 18:26 see this: http://www.sawstop.com/ 2010-11-17 18:26 emeb: yeah, that variant exists as well 2010-11-17 18:28 (antennas) refant is one of the usual 2.45 GHz WiFi antennas. ant-120B and ant-120B are the atusb/atusd antenna but 20% larger, in slightly different positions. ant-none is the same setup, with the antenna disconnected. ant-120A is another 120% antenna (identical design). still some way to go ... 2010-11-17 18:30 emeb: solution: just outsource sawing to a place where fingers are cheap ;-) 2010-11-17 18:30 and safety laws non-existent... 2010-11-17 18:31 that usually goes hand in hand :) 2010-11-17 18:31 not an issue for big business, but kind of a show-stopper for small guys & hobbyists. 2010-11-17 18:31 but then we're all better off just sitting on the sofa watching TV - that's safer than having a hobby. :) 2010-11-17 18:31 well, as a hobbyist you can use whatever unsafe saw you choose :) 2010-11-17 18:32 wpwrak: not if the mfg can only sell 'safe' saws at a substantially increased price. 2010-11-17 18:32 ebay :) 2010-11-17 18:32 junkyards! 2010-11-17 18:33 synonyms ! :) 2010-11-17 18:33 lol 2010-11-17 18:33 I'll just play with computers. 2010-11-17 18:33 gets back OT 2010-11-17 19:55 wow... I got to have netsurf running on nn on framebuffer... awesome indeed X-D 2010-11-17 19:56 taking shot as soon as I come to terms with fbgrab :p 2010-11-17 19:57 calamarz: I am try to create the openwrt package of netsurf. 2010-11-17 19:57 calamarz: did you create the openwrt package already? 2010-11-17 19:57 xiangfu: no, I compiled it on debian 2010-11-17 19:58 a hell bunch of libs btw 2010-11-17 19:58 calamarz: ok 2010-11-17 19:58 calamarz: I am working on the openwrt side :) 2010-11-17 19:58 well, my hobbies I mustn't even tell about 2010-11-17 19:59 xiangfu: I had to turn -Werror off on a couple of places btw 2010-11-17 20:04 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Netsurf_on_nn.png 2010-11-17 20:04 calamarz: thanks for the info. I got the first error:)  Unable to find library for: BMP 2010-11-17 20:05 http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/libnsbmp/ 2010-11-17 20:07 xiangfu: you'll have to package most of the libs on the top of that page too... can also disable some options on Makefile.config 2010-11-17 20:09 man this thing is awesome: html5, svg... and even js on a couple of releases :) how could we miss that for so long? 2010-11-17 20:57 calamarz: sorry I stole the news of your file upload before your post :-) 2010-11-17 20:58 I didn't realize you had _just_ uploaded the file... 2010-11-17 21:12 hehe... wolfspraul: I was also thinking about wiki reader 2010-11-17 21:14 I only have to find a 12 or 16 Gb microsd... full english wikipedia dump is 6.4Gb, plus +3Gb of xapian indexes... I have to find my way thru the bisonparser for wiki markup... 2010-11-17 21:16 calamarz: it's a long story :-) 2010-11-17 21:16 things to consider are tables, images, special characters (unicode) including math symbols 2010-11-17 21:17 Wikimedia Foundation provides nice XML dump files, and being able to reuse them is a big win because we are talking about gigabyes and gigabytes of constantly changing data 2010-11-17 21:17 then there is zim, which first renders the xml (mediawiki markup) into html 2010-11-17 21:17 but last time I checked, wmf support for zim was still mostly lip service 2010-11-17 21:17 ugh... yep, I was leaving them apart for now.. I was following this simple approach here: http://users.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html 2010-11-17 21:17 that is there are very few zim files around, maybe it got better now 2010-11-17 21:18 and even then the problem is a nice zim reader that runs snappy on 32mb ram etc. 2010-11-17 21:18 finally, some practical problems like how to deal with links, and how to have a really great search engine, full index of all words maybe? 2010-11-17 21:18 also, I am thinking more and more that a small subset might make more sense, I'm thinking about 'math' 2010-11-17 21:19 so one could imagine a script that is given some category names, and then fetches all articles in those categories 2010-11-17 21:19 full index will take too much space, I'm afraid.. 2010-11-17 21:19 yep, that "sets" is promising... I think you can do it in the export features in mediawiki, right? 2010-11-17 21:19 the amount of data would be much less, so making a reader that is good (fast) on all these things like images, index, etc. is easier 2010-11-17 21:19 ah yes, good idea 2010-11-17 21:20 or you can just crawl through the pages 2010-11-17 21:20 well it's all just ideas, lots of work and I hesitate to start a development effort that will collapse under its weight 2010-11-17 21:20 abandonware 2010-11-17 21:20 :-) 2010-11-17 21:20 must be something super maintainable that reuses as much as possible of other free efforts 2010-11-17 21:20 what I didn't like about the zim project was the reader of their own 2010-11-17 21:21 for embedded images, there is another problem with the licenses 2010-11-17 21:21 that's why wmf does not offer images included 2010-11-17 21:21 the standardization of licenses in images is too weak, so there are many exceptions for this and that picture or use case 2010-11-17 21:21 so embedding pictures only works with a lot of manual work (fetching yourself), and at your own risk too because you may accidentally trample over some of the restrictions that are listed in the metadata 2010-11-17 21:22 so that's about everything I know we need to consider :-) 2010-11-17 21:22 I think something more unix-like could be much more powerful... I was thinking about doing some simple experiment with a modified micro_httpd and text only mode... 2010-11-17 21:22 yes of course, sounds good! 2010-11-17 21:22 I'm also for simple bottom-up approach 2010-11-17 21:23 so images looks hard... but having only text + latex rendering would be great 2010-11-17 21:23 as for zim, well sure there are things one might like or not like. but if it's an active project and they get things to work, more power to them. 2010-11-17 21:23 I haven't checked in a while though, like I said last time I felt a little unfortunate that I think the WMF was not really honest with them. 2010-11-17 21:24 the reality is that the WMF does not support offline efforts because offline also means they (the wmf) is disconnected from potential donors 2010-11-17 21:24 and they don't like that :-) 2010-11-17 21:24 they have quite a few hungry mouths to feed nowadays :-) 2010-11-17 21:25 so zim is in this state of great lip-service support, little action (from the wmf) 2010-11-17 21:25 yep... this morning I was thinking wikipedia has grown too much to be manageable grassroots-like... 2010-11-17 21:25 but then I did see some zim files recently, maybe they have managed to start some server processes to crunch data 2010-11-17 21:26 that would be very helpful 2010-11-17 21:26 at these sizes of data, we need to consider even the data itself as a given, and valuable 2010-11-17 21:26 because once you start dealing with/downloading/formatting millions of articles and dozens of languages, it becomes an effort not very dissimilar from say the Linux kernel or so :-) 2010-11-17 21:27 so when I see a nice large file like a dump or a zim file, and I know there are people maintaining and updating these files, I think about a way to reuse those files as is, without touching the innards of the files 2010-11-17 21:28 so yeah, if we can do a unix text-only approach that is still fast, why not 2010-11-17 21:28 maybe you take a wmf xml dump file, and you generate some kind of index into it 2010-11-17 21:28 then have a console app that allows you to lookup and extract articles from it 2010-11-17 21:28 that was does the guy in the tutorial I pasted 2010-11-17 21:29 calamarz: you think that project stands out? 2010-11-17 21:29 he indexes with xapian inside of the bzip files 2010-11-17 21:29 I know there are some efforts like that, but everytime we looked closer, we found some big showstoppers. 2010-11-17 21:29 sure 2010-11-17 21:29 like huge memory use, very slow, etc. 2010-11-17 21:30 yeah, I did not try yet on the nn, but the parser in the example is using php... we should find a way of reusing some c/c++ parser to turn the xml chunks into html 2010-11-17 21:33 was thinking about doing some quick and dirty trick like getting the article from the local url, extract xml from the bzip file, process and redirect to the parser output... 2010-11-17 21:34 well any insights, experiments, progress you can make along these lines would be very appreciated 2010-11-17 21:34 one of the limitations is this indexing takes only titles (that's the +3Gb for the full dump) 2010-11-17 21:34 I'm just reading the page now, I am sure someone looked into this earlier but then gave up for some reason 2010-11-17 21:35 but now that the overall image, system, software etc is getting better and better maybe we are ready to look back at this :-) 2010-11-17 21:35 I should get a bigger microsd in a few days... and then will spend a weekend tinkering, will share my outputs for sure :) 2010-11-17 21:37 speaking about big microsds, I think nobody tried 32gb cards yet 2010-11-17 21:37 they exist now, but quite expensive so last time I decided to not buy one and wait a little instead... 2010-11-17 21:37 something like 80 USD in China, I think 2010-11-17 21:40 http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/parsers/flexbisonparse/ <- this is the parser I wanted to look at... 2010-11-17 22:26 rafa: the socrate picture is 'free' as in the wikimedia foundation definition 2010-11-17 22:26 in fact it's from their servers 2010-11-17 22:26 as far as I'm concerned, I am following the wmf on those matters 2010-11-17 22:26 no -nd, no -nc, no fair use 2010-11-17 22:27 but everything else: yes, is 'free' 2010-11-17 22:28 there are huge amounts of free content, especially old stuff like literature, music (recording needs to be free as well), paintings etc. 2010-11-17 22:28 entire photograph libraries being donated to Wikimedia Commons 2010-11-17 22:29 I fully intend to use this stuff on copyleft hardware, either with good viewing software, or make it downloadable, or bundle it right away, even to only fill the storage space the device comes with anyway 2010-11-17 22:30 now, if some countries restrict the concept of 'public domain', or any other restriction or taxation of 'free', then still first of all I will follow what the WMF does 2010-11-17 22:30 it's a good baseline to follow I think, a baseline upon which to build exceptions 2010-11-17 22:30 OpenWrt proper boots into a home screen that greets you with a recipe for an alcoholic drink 2010-11-17 22:31 I am sure if you read the law well enough, that you would have problem with this kind of thing in Saudi Arabia, UAE, and who knows where else 2010-11-17 22:31 i rather like that bit :) 2010-11-17 22:31 let's not even get into the extremely differing definitions of 'pornography' 2010-11-17 22:32 the WMF has had their share of heat already over that... 2010-11-17 22:32 so if you are telling me that Argentina has special rules if money is made with 'public domain artworks', well, fine 2010-11-17 22:32 I wait until the case becomes real, for now I just follow wmf freedom baseline :-) 2010-11-17 22:34 and I cannot imagine that such law would apply to the NanoNote, it's similar to the patents I think where if you go around and read read read, worry worry worry, you will always find a reason to see a threat 2010-11-17 22:34 but in reality these things are written, meant and applied to very specific cases 2010-11-17 22:34 where someone thinks money can easily be made :-)