2010-11-16 03:19 what is jlime using as a GUI text editor? 2010-11-16 03:48 [commit] kyak: asign a working dir for ash-rus http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7265f7c 2010-11-16 05:47 live from the annual championship of efficient screen space usage. the winner is ... the yacas tutorial ! go to http://yacas.sourceforge.net/homepage.html then click on the "Tutorial" tab. (they've hidden the real URL somewhere in a style sheet or such. pretty good camouflage, too.) 2010-11-16 05:58 hi 2010-11-16 05:58 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/ID_USB <= what's this? 2010-11-16 05:59 and http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Afinador_Digital_de_Instrumento 2010-11-16 05:59 a strange little project ? :) 2010-11-16 06:00 student projects in columbia 2010-11-16 06:03 lekernel: we all don't know what this is :-) 2010-11-16 06:04 my qualification wouldn't be very, let's say, 'motivational', so I leave it up to the academic pros to do that :-) 2010-11-16 06:04 some day we'll have a fine mess with all those probably short-lived projects in the qi-hw wiki. well, it just goes to confirm my theory that wiki as a distributed documentation tool is inherently flawed ;-) 2010-11-16 06:04 wpwrak: no no, don't worry. 2010-11-16 06:04 Carlos and I already have a perfect strategy for that. 2010-11-16 06:04 mediawiki has nice mass and batch deletion extensions... 2010-11-16 06:04 ;-)) 2010-11-16 06:05 and they are already installed 2010-11-16 06:05 but let's give the students a fair chance 2010-11-16 06:05 wouldn't it be better to set up a wiki at the university ? label the projects properly with their time slot, etc. 2010-11-16 06:05 I gladly donate some server storage and bandwidth for their projects :-) 2010-11-16 06:05 that way, they can even stay after they're finished. that should be nicer for the students. 2010-11-16 06:07 well, now we get into the 'qualification' stage. Do they care? my view is this: they hobble up some fantastic plans, great on promises lousy on implementation. they need to somehow serve this past some superficial reviews to get their degrees, and the day they get their degree they care about these projects even less than I do :-) 2010-11-16 06:07 the non-hierarchical nature of the wiki doesn't make mixing things very convenient. well, not without something like google to figure out what's actually relevant. 2010-11-16 06:07 Carlos will try to squeeze some long-term benefits out of it, but Carlos and I are pretty close in our judgment. 2010-11-16 06:08 sure, the projects may die right after they're done. but you can still keep them where it doesn't cause trouble. 2010-11-16 06:08 of course if they are not in anybody's way 2010-11-16 06:08 mediawiki has strong category features 2010-11-16 06:08 it's also nicer for students if they know their work isn't destined for destruction no matter what 2010-11-16 06:09 wpwrak: like I said. I'm willing to increase my respect for these works at least :-) to the level that the authors respect their own works... 2010-11-16 06:09 so no worries. nothing will be deleted just for fun. they are student projects. I hope they are in nobody's way. 2010-11-16 06:09 I think 99% of it is junk. 2010-11-16 06:10 but I guess in academia you need an unstoppable believe in 'talents' (ahem) 2010-11-16 06:10 it's less about respecting the work or the authors but about putting things where they logically belong :) 2010-11-16 06:10 so I provide server resources, Carlos does the magic. 2010-11-16 06:10 well some of it may belong into the trash bin 2010-11-16 06:10 but not now, after they got their degrees 2010-11-16 06:11 we'll see 2010-11-16 06:11 who knows maybe something good comes out of it 2010-11-16 06:11 we should be optimistic, shouldn't we? 2010-11-16 06:11 wolfspraul: it is 2010-11-16 06:11 (99% talking) 2010-11-16 06:12 "some of it may belong into the trash bin, but not now, after they got their degrees" 2010-11-16 06:12 nice quote :) 2010-11-16 06:12 lols 2010-11-16 06:12 yeah well 2010-11-16 06:12 they themselves wouldn't even disagree :-) 2010-11-16 06:12 he he 2010-11-16 06:13 students tend to know the limited lifespan of their efforts :) 2010-11-16 06:14 some things have a real use, though. e.g., one of my students did some bug hunting in one of the little protocols in the ATM stack. found something in my implementation and also some things in the "competing" commercial implementation. that was useful. 2010-11-16 06:16 then some others did things that didn't have a direct practical use but helped me to get a better understanding of the issue. 2010-11-16 06:17 then of course, there was that one guy in finland who implemented a whole link-layer emulation stack. (LAN Emulation) wasn't my student but certainly did a heck of a work for his MSc thesis. that stuff is probably still round today. 2010-11-16 06:23 so i wouldn't simply dismiss these projects but i'd also keep them separate from "official documentation". 2010-11-16 06:34 wolfspraul: the glitch problem definitely is a DNS issue. seems that there's a cache somethere that forwards the query but immediately responds "not found". once the real response arrives, it's fine. 2010-11-16 06:35 wpwrak: hmm 2010-11-16 06:36 maybe outside of reach for any improvement then 2010-11-16 06:36 wolfspraul: here's a doddle i made recently. (not everything there is correct, e.g., the SIE dates are purely my invention) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/timeline.pdf 2010-11-16 06:36 wolfspraul: dunno. since it seems to affect others too, it's probably close to the source. 2010-11-16 06:37 s/doddle/doodle/ 2010-11-16 07:01 wpwrak: he that is fun and crazy :-) 2010-11-16 07:01 ;-) 2010-11-16 07:01 should we put it on the qi homepage for a while? 2010-11-16 07:02 hmm, maybe with better data ? 2010-11-16 07:02 also, the compressed x scale makes things look a bit weird 2010-11-16 07:02 let's see, maybe an mtk project will join at some point 2010-11-16 07:02 yeah, haven't quite figured out how to merge the telephony side 2010-11-16 07:03 of course, the overall goal is to provide you with material to show to prospective investors/sponsors ;-) 2010-11-16 07:03 "look, we even have a roadmap !" ;-) 2010-11-16 07:06 it's in fact rjeffries' question about xue that made me think of this. because it's indeed sometimes hard to see how the various little projects interconnect. 2010-11-16 07:06 (even if you know what each of them is doing ;-) 2010-11-16 07:22 phew. after five layers of python, one finally gets to the C code of gnuradio. at least there's fftw at the bottom of this well, something known 2010-11-16 07:28 wpwrak: do you think python is slow? 2010-11-16 07:28 (i'm polling everyone's opinion about that :)) 2010-11-16 07:29 lekernel: slower than C for sure. whether that it "too slow" or "fast enough" depends ... 2010-11-16 07:30 wpwrak: I was thinking about a 'hardware block diagram', like those software block diagrams 2010-11-16 07:30 only that at the top, it starts/ends with the kernel, say Linux/RTEMS/Iris, then below that are blocks for IC design, KiCad/boom, RF stuff, mechanical process and tools, etc. 2010-11-16 07:31 lekernel: i used it for some fair amount of data processing in my TMC package and i'd rather do all this in C. it's expect a speedup of about 10x, considering that most of the operations are quite simple. (such as walking a large array, doing floating-point comparisons on the values, and generating another array with the result) 2010-11-16 07:31 but your left-to-right diagram is also nice 2010-11-16 07:32 ah, a stack. a stack implies order. do we have that ? ;) 2010-11-16 07:33 wpwrak: fyi milkymist spells with just one capital M at the beginning, and started in aug 2007 (without qi-hardware at that time) 2010-11-16 07:36 lekernel: python is slow, but often that doesn't matter if you do the complex control part in python and the heavy lifting in C modules 2010-11-16 07:36 lekernel: ah, thanks ! i was indeed wondering about its origin date :) 2010-11-16 07:37 for processing numbers it really helps to use numpy 2010-11-16 07:37 failing to be popular since 2007, yay! 2010-11-16 07:37 big R&D is frustrating, really 2010-11-16 07:37 lekernel: ;-))) 2010-11-16 07:38 lekernel: well, that's about to change, isn't it ? how are things going with the CCC preparation ? 2010-11-16 07:39 heh, I hope so 2010-11-16 07:40 CCC preparation is a small task :) 2010-11-16 07:40 it's rather about getting the boards produced and flashed with good stuff 2010-11-16 07:40 btw we got a prototype case lately (thanks roh) 2010-11-16 07:41 http://www.milkymist.org/mmone.html 2010-11-16 07:41 lekernel: (boards) yeah, that's what i meant ;-) 2010-11-16 07:41 (case) wow ! that was really quick ! 2010-11-16 07:41 one afternoon basically :) 2010-11-16 07:41 there are still a few rough edges but that's really good work for a start 2010-11-16 07:42 (big r&d) i actually wondered about the timeline. normally, an MSc thesis doesn't take nearly that long. how did you manage that ? 2010-11-16 07:43 well, I just started before, and since this had never been published in academia and looked better than a crappy thesis, I managed to get it accepted 2010-11-16 07:43 nice case. laser cutters rock. 2010-11-16 07:43 plus there are some improvements and studies that I did for the thesis itself 2010-11-16 07:44 aah ! good move. yup, certainly beats the usual thesis stuff by a pretty wide margin. 2010-11-16 07:45 (case) how did they do the groove in the top/bottom plates ? 2010-11-16 07:45 mh, that was the messier part 2010-11-16 07:46 make two shallow cuts with the laser, then scrape the wood away with a screwdriver 2010-11-16 07:46 that was slow and messy 2010-11-16 07:46 good ;-) i was already worried that laser cutters were getting way too powerful :) 2010-11-16 07:46 later we'll use a cnc 2010-11-16 07:46 i was just about to mention that :) 2010-11-16 07:47 with the mill it'll be easy. and they have a nice big one. 2010-11-16 07:48 my mill only does pieces of 15 x 10 cm. so i'm no fan of "make the ben bigger" proposals :) 2010-11-16 07:49 the sidewalls fit very nicely. you don't even seem to need a filler for the corners. 2010-11-16 07:50 roh: congratulations to you, too ! very nice job ! 2010-11-16 08:06 wpwrak: will you post your PDF in response to Ron's mail? 2010-11-16 08:09 wolfspraul: not in its present state. maybe i'll make a program that generates such a diagram from raw data. that way, i'll be easier to rearrange things. i also need to verify a number of dates, etc. 2010-11-16 08:11 wolfspraul: in any case, the answer for ron is probably more along the lines of a link to the projects list :) 2010-11-16 08:11 ah sure, I don't think you should get bogged down over such bureaucracy anyway 2010-11-16 08:11 Ron likes to lean back and ask wise guy questions... 2010-11-16 08:12 I appreciate the mental challenge to stay calm and friendly. That is indeed helpful. :-) 2010-11-16 08:12 kristianpaul: some nice pictures: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/discuss-gnuradio/2010-11/msg00308.html 2010-11-16 08:12 reminds me of what I learn in China every day, so also goes along well with that... 2010-11-16 08:13 he's asking the right questions though, of course our stuff is not easy to understand etc. 2010-11-16 08:13 wolfspraul: (bureaucracy) yeah, it's low priority :) first the antennas. then i might hack a faster version of rafa's jlime-pkg. then we'll see :) 2010-11-16 08:15 yup, he asks good questions. i wish he'd also take on a redactorial/editorial role. i think that's what you need to make wiki-based documentation work. someone who keeps the big picture, steers thing in the right direction, and makes sure things connect. 2010-11-16 08:18 if you can activate him in that direction, we will hand you the 'ron award', the highest possible award in community contribution activation... 2010-11-16 08:18 from the description, i take it that it is usually awarded posthumously ? :) 2010-11-16 08:27 Ornotermes: kristianpaul found some SDR receiver for satellite and such 2010-11-16 08:27 oh? 2010-11-16 08:27 Ornotermes: relatively inexpensive, estimated ~usd 150 i think. form factor: usb dongle. 2010-11-16 08:29 is there a link? 2010-11-16 08:30 GRRR. if i let gnuplot do the math, it get signals of about -30 dB. if i do it in my C program, i get ~-5 dB. (the latter is actually roughly what i expect to get) 2010-11-16 08:30 hates non-deterministic math 2010-11-16 08:31 ah, where's kristianpaul when we need him ... 2010-11-16 08:32 08:30 in bogota. he should be up by now. 2010-11-16 08:33 (math) ah, my fault. forgot to scale it ... 2010-11-16 08:36 wpwrak: maybe he just arrived from a night life 2010-11-16 08:37 he has a day job, maybe commuting to that right now? 2010-11-16 08:38 hmm. results are still very different from what gnuradio's fft gives me. but at least they're no longer freakishly sensitive to parameter variations. that's something :) 2010-11-16 08:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add fsck http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9b66248 2010-11-16 08:39 wolfspraul: yes, surely. He often has the chance to be here still if he is working.. but sometimes there are really busy days as well 2010-11-16 08:42 wolfspraul: I had a vague idea about dual booting to think between all.. there are a lot of pro and cons.. but well, it was an idea to put together other ideas before to define more technical details. Did you read the log about having just one kernel, just one rootfs partition and /data partition on nand for two or more distributions? 2010-11-16 08:42 I saw some discussions. 2010-11-16 08:42 not sure which one works best etc. 2010-11-16 08:43 ah, t-shirt idea v2: front: "Eloi", with the o apple-shaped. below, "Morlock", with the k ben-symbol-shaped. back: "dinner is served". 2010-11-16 08:43 but it's good that we start thinking about it 2010-11-16 08:43 wolfspraul: no.. I have not idea either 2010-11-16 08:43 and if 'many partitions' is totally outdated and old fashioned, well then, bring in the new stuff! chroot and what not, all fine by me. let's just think about the consequences first :-) 2010-11-16 08:43 t-shirt #2 (for wolfgang :): front: "THE FLOW". back: "don't go with it" 2010-11-16 08:44 wolfspraul: yes.. maybe we could put these ideas on some wiki.. so we can read from time to time to improve those 2010-11-16 08:44 wolfspraul: chat forgets a bit 2010-11-16 08:44 wolfspraul: many partitions = many more opportunities for noticing that something doesn't fit and needs resizing :) 2010-11-16 08:45 rafa: (chat forgetting) while wiki preserves the obsolete concepts and explanations forever ;-) 2010-11-16 08:45 rafa: what's the name of gui text editor in jlime? 2010-11-16 08:46 wpwrak: that is true.. but at least wiki could remembers us a bit those ideas during the process to think those 2010-11-16 08:46 rafa: if you get up one day, and you meet Werner, and he tells you all these things about how he loves u-boot, how he loves wikis, NAND, partitions, and many other beautiful things, you know something is wrong. Maybe you are in a dream? Maybe a new world? all is possible... 2010-11-16 08:46 kyak: it gtkedit or gtkeditor.. no remember exactly. Let me find the original link. 2010-11-16 08:46 kyak: btw.. all the gtk applications on jlime are gtk1 applications 2010-11-16 08:47 rafa: okay.. 2010-11-16 08:47 kyak: because those were 3 or 4 times faster than gtk2.. of course.. gtk2 is modern and full of features 2010-11-16 08:47 kyak: which we do not use on a 320x240 screen 2010-11-16 08:47 oh ok! 2010-11-16 08:47 i'm lookng for a simalicitic QT editor 2010-11-16 08:48 *simplistic 2010-11-16 08:48 wolfspraul: when this happens, i'd be very careful to avoid any physical contact with that "werner", for he'll certainly consist of antimatter :) 2010-11-16 08:48 for some reason i believe qt is faster than gtk.. and more modern too 2010-11-16 08:48 but i'm not sure 2010-11-16 08:49 kyak: easy: ln -s `which vi` /usr/local/bin/myqtedit; xterm -e myqtedit 2010-11-16 08:49 wpwrak: thanks! 2010-11-16 08:50 (-:C 2010-11-16 08:50 so it's qt 2010-11-16 08:50 mmm 2010-11-16 08:50 kyak: http://gtkedit1.sourceforge.net/ 2010-11-16 08:50 no links in google 2010-11-16 08:50 for myqtedit 2010-11-16 08:51 oh damn 2010-11-16 08:51 wpwrak: you tricked me :) 2010-11-16 08:51 rafa: nice, thanks! 2010-11-16 08:52 wpwrak: let me know when you have xterm running in openwrt :) 2010-11-16 08:52 wolfspraul: yeah.. no sure if I know him or he is part of this Alice in WonderlandÂ Â :D 2010-11-16 08:53 kyak: we had a long list of nice gtk1 applications a couple of years ago.. Unfortunately.. with the lot of changes on web server and stuff... I have not found that :( 2010-11-16 08:53 kyak: but those were fast as the hell 2010-11-16 08:53 kyak: I remember.. at my old jornada 660x (166mhz, 16mb of ram).. running them and immediately those appeared on screen 2010-11-16 08:53 sorry, 66mhz 2010-11-16 08:54 rafa: that's great.. unfortunately, those are usually unmaintaned 2010-11-16 08:54 only few people need such apps 2010-11-16 08:54 kyak: well.. they did just a simple and very know and used task.. like editor, calculator, browser 2010-11-16 08:54 kyak: so you do not need maintainers 2010-11-16 08:55 kyak: also.. they were so small to do easy modifications if you want 2010-11-16 08:55 kyak: like I did with the dictionary (which is gtk1 as well) 2010-11-16 08:55 well yes, you are right 2010-11-16 08:55 (kyak) heh, i thought the "thanks" was ironic :) 2010-11-16 08:55 grr. s/(kyak)/kyak: (tricked)/ 2010-11-16 08:56 should not multitask 2010-11-16 08:56 wpwrak: it could have been ironic if i wasn't multitask :) 2010-11-16 09:12 wpwrak: hello 2010-11-16 09:13 sorry i travel to work every day 2010-11-16 09:13 btw i live in Buga, not bogota but yes is same timezone :) 2010-11-16 09:13 Ornotermes: hey 2010-11-16 09:13 does Ron do anything except not using Google and asking questions that slow down everyone else? 2010-11-16 09:13 hangon reading baclog just now 2010-11-16 09:16 kristianpaul: bg*a - matches :) 2010-11-16 09:16 kristianpaul: and i was indeed thinking of the same time zone :) 2010-11-16 09:17 lekernel: do we really want to know ? ;-) 2010-11-16 09:23 Hi. Can someone point me to actual version of NanoNote schematic & PCB? I found at least three versions of different boards on wiki, but without comments about actuality. 2010-11-16 09:25 jekhor:Â Â i use always these schematics: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/9/9c/Lb60_schematic.pdf http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Ben-lcd-drive-sch.pdf 2010-11-16 09:25 not sure about the layout - haven't looked at it yet 2010-11-16 09:29 kristianpaul: hi 2010-11-16 09:58 Ornotermes: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/GPS_Open_Stack 2010-11-16 09:58 Ornotermes: all info i had found is ther moetly links to read and lots of books, but very helfull 2010-11-16 09:58 yes is posible 2010-11-16 09:59 how posible on nanonote we will see 2010-11-16 09:59 may be fpga acelaration will help 2010-11-16 09:59 even with a usrp is sexy and posible :D 2010-11-16 09:59 wpwrak: nice timeline ! 2010-11-16 10:00 lekernel: python not good for thread handling, is my pain every time client askme why apps so slow :( 2010-11-16 10:00 wpwrak: you founded ben layout in pdf??? 2010-11-16 10:01 remenber to take the pics 2010-11-16 10:03 Ornotermes: are related with GNSS world? 2010-11-16 10:03 are you* 2010-11-16 10:04 hmm usrp code seems usefull, i may take a look 2010-11-16 10:04 or emulate gn3s protocol then create some dumps and feed gps-sdr sofware 2010-11-16 10:07 s/moetly/mostly 2010-11-16 10:07 kristianpaul: no, not at all 2010-11-16 10:09 wpwrak: (FFTsend peak) looks interesting, what is doing the fft, sorry i'm not aware of gnuradio apps 2010-11-16 10:09 i just like the idea of having a portable reciever that can be programmed to decode various digital data 2010-11-16 10:09 but incredible they do cool things may be the basic i need 2010-11-16 10:10 Ornotermes: what you mean with digital data? 2010-11-16 10:10 various* 2010-11-16 10:10 ahh an USRP portable?? 2010-11-16 10:10 yes something like that :) 2010-11-16 10:14 i think ettus have one 2010-11-16 10:16 but not public yet, i read some comments before, it uses som gumstick with arm LOCKWARE 2010-11-16 10:17 wpwrak: i meant i know what fft dowes, but what sofware is behinf it, FFTW ? yacas :O 2010-11-16 10:21 python? 2010-11-16 10:22 :-) 2010-11-16 10:33 kristianpaul: sadly i can't spare the money even to buy any USRP on the market now :/ 2010-11-16 10:35 kristianpaul: (ben layout) nope. but i didn't search for it either :) 2010-11-16 10:36 kristianpaul: (fft) gnuradio uses fftw 2010-11-16 10:43 wpwrak: when you mean gnuradio is GRC part of it? 2010-11-16 10:44 kristianpaul: yes. gnuradio-3.3.0/grc/ ;-) 2010-11-16 10:44 ah :) 2010-11-16 10:47 indeed nice pictures :) 2010-11-16 11:06 lekernel: you should like this talk at 27c3: "A new circuit board printer will liberate you from the Arduino-Industrial Complex" :) http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/events/4099.en.html 2010-11-16 11:08 yeah, saw it before 2010-11-16 11:08 made me laugh :) 2010-11-16 12:08 [commit] kyak: /etc/banner: fixed noeol; /etc/VERSION was missing http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/646fb82 2010-11-16 13:07 lekernel: btw, i don't see your presentation on the schedule ? or will it be "the concert" ? ;-) 2010-11-16 13:25 wpwrak: it's a workshop... they didn't put them on the schedule :( 2010-11-16 13:26 actually the workshop organization is a lot messier than I thought 2010-11-16 13:27 lekernel: ah, what are the messy bits ? 2010-11-16 13:30 well, first they let you put an entry in the pentabarf, then you get no answer from them, and finally you discover that the workshops are on a "first come first serve edit the wiki schedule yourself" mode 2010-11-16 13:30 and, as you noticed, they aren't on the schedule 2010-11-16 13:31 [commit] kyak: added keymap for Qt apps http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/abf3fa4 2010-11-16 13:31 ah, they changed it again! 2010-11-16 13:31 http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/wiki/index.php?title=Workshops&action=history 2010-11-16 13:31 nice 2010-11-16 13:31 lekernel: hmm, that doesn't sound very nice. particularly not for firsttimers. did you still get a good slot ? 2010-11-16 13:32 ;-))) 2010-11-16 13:32 seems I didn't get any slot so far... 2010-11-16 13:34 the wednesday slot would be good 2010-11-16 13:34 if people don't have to prepare anything for it, then tue, too 2010-11-16 13:34 combined with the pre-sale ticket mess, that pretty much sucks 2010-11-16 13:36 well, there is "chaos" in the name :) 2010-11-16 13:37 yeah, grr 2010-11-16 13:37 next year => lecture :) 2010-11-16 13:37 I'm also losing a lot of visibility by not being on the schedule 2010-11-16 13:38 grmbl. now .. my antenna sensitivity tests ... i do 100 test runs. each time exactly the same setup. what i'd expect are 100 results, bounding around roughly randomly within a certain range. what i get instead looks more like a -log curve with a bit of noise on top :-( 2010-11-16 13:38 lekernel: yeah :-( well, maybe they'll put the workshops in a similarly visible place later. 2010-11-16 13:40 workshops tend to be more for the in-crowd while lectures tend to draw more people who are just curious, though. so the workshop will be more of a challenge. 2010-11-16 13:44 hmm. and then there are those freak runs where the power suddenly jumps by 8 dB. i wonder what got into the system with these ... 2010-11-16 13:45 it looks a bit too consistent to be just an RF side problem. maybe there's a problem with the communication. well, i can debug this separately. 2010-11-16 13:58 interesting. now i did the test with the 802.15.4 transmitter constantly running. (before i was turning it on and off between tests.) and i still get those surprise peaks. this suggests the usrp is to blame for them. grrr ... 2010-11-16 14:02 kewl.. typing russian in Qt! 2010-11-16 14:02 (have to hold the "Qi" button for now, Qt for some reason doesn't know how to proceed *_Lock from keymap) 2010-11-16 14:07 god i'm so glad this is even feasible 2010-11-16 15:12 Qt seems to be able to Lock only Caps, Num and Scroll 2010-11-16 15:13 to be able to Lock CtrlR, for example, would require to modify Qt LinuxInput driver 2010-11-16 15:13 hm-hm 2010-11-16 15:14 and what is ctrlr? 2010-11-16 15:15 it's one of the keyboard modifiers, usually right control... could be anything.. 2010-11-16 15:16 ah 2010-11-16 15:16 forÂ Â Ben i've assigned it to "Qi" key 2010-11-16 15:16 so it is possible to switch to alternative keymap 2010-11-16 15:17 in xorg? 2010-11-16 15:17 or the fb? 2010-11-16 15:17 it works in console; and Qt has a kmap2qmap to convert it to Qt keymap (to use in linuxfb) 2010-11-16 15:18 if there was X11 in openwrt, wouldn't be a problem at all 2010-11-16 15:18 there isn't even the tiny server? 2010-11-16 15:20 there is something.. but i'm not sure 2010-11-16 16:32 hey 2010-11-16 16:32 kyak: ping 2010-11-16 16:36 wolfgang told me anybody wrote a hello-world qt4 GUI program and it hangs/crashes as well when it is supposed to quit - however i forgot _who_ did so 2010-11-16 16:37 mirko: had you tried with nanomap? 2010-11-16 16:38 yes 2010-11-16 16:38 what happended? 2010-11-16 16:38 however it's far too complex for debugging qt4-issues on the device itself 2010-11-16 16:39 the issue is the same though... 2010-11-16 16:39 hangs and segfaults while syscalling rt_sissuspend 2010-11-16 16:39 http://pastebin.com/6gq1tH76 2010-11-16 16:40 *rt_sigsuspend([]) 2010-11-16 16:44 mirko: yuo 2010-11-16 16:45 mirko: i did so.. however, when you changed it to use linuxfb, it quits fine now 2010-11-16 16:46 now = last openwrt commit? 2010-11-16 16:47 last one, too, but since this commit to be exact 2010-11-16 16:47 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/commit/3c816c4c124461463aa499d72c163b8c433b82ab/ 2010-11-16 16:48 export QWS_DISPLAY=linuxfb does the trick 2010-11-16 17:04 mirko: do you know why it was decided to go without X11? i understand it adds an overhead, but is it that noticable? 2010-11-16 17:05 as i can see, openwrt supports X11 pretty well 2010-11-16 17:17 kyak: it's overhead for features which aren't used on the NN 2010-11-16 17:17 sb has handy a url for the mxu_as awk script? 2010-11-16 17:17 kyak: name one advantage of X11 on embedded devices 2010-11-16 17:17 kyak: well - the hello-world app quits fine now with linuxfb? 2010-11-16 17:17 NanoMap still does not 2010-11-16 17:17 kyak: show me the hellow-world app code please 2010-11-16 17:18 quak 2010-11-16 17:18 lekernel: remote X graphical terminal () 2010-11-16 17:18 rafa: i think jlime can start preparing the welcoming ceremony for kyak ;-) 2010-11-16 17:19 over what? SLIP/PPP? hahahahaha 2010-11-16 17:19 well sure not on those 2010-11-16 17:19 but on ethernet, well :) 2010-11-16 17:20 sure, you could use VNC or better RDP on those 2010-11-16 17:20 kristianpaul: not so fast. they run PPP over high-speed links ;-) 2010-11-16 17:20 even the much-touted network supposed-transparency doesn't work with X 2010-11-16 17:20 don't get it.. had the discussion sooo many times.. 2010-11-16 17:20 it's just slow as hell 2010-11-16 17:20 x11 is dead 2010-11-16 17:20 wpwrak: ah true :) 2010-11-16 17:20 [/provoking] 2010-11-16 17:20 ;) 2010-11-16 17:21 wayland is the way(land) 2010-11-16 17:21 xcb is promising as well 2010-11-16 17:21 mirko: it died for the first time some 20+ years ago -and lived on as a zombie happily ever after ;-) 2010-11-16 17:21 rise hand who is not using X right now :) 2010-11-16 17:22 everyone on windows? :P 2010-11-16 17:22 kristianpaul: X != x11 != graphical user interface 2010-11-16 17:22 I seriously wish I weren't - if only someone cared to kick that crap out instead of developing a patchwork of incompatible toolkits all depending on X 2010-11-16 17:22 unfortunately I'm stuck with an awful (and bloated) mess of Qt, GTK and even Motif apps 2010-11-16 17:23 Qt and GTK have ports to wayland, right? 2010-11-16 17:23 mirko: agreed 2010-11-16 17:23 mirko: as jlime uses xfdev relly well :) 2010-11-16 17:23 I believe the Qt port was quite advanced 2010-11-16 17:23 load three different widgets toolkit. absolutely brilliant! 2010-11-16 17:23 mirko: let's see how Wayward looks once it has caught up on the basic feature set :) e.g., decent network support, runs well on common hardware - old and new, compatibility with the major widget sets, multi-head support, ... 2010-11-16 17:23 make it all run on cairo 2010-11-16 17:23 lekernel: DirectFB support(ed) all of them... 2010-11-16 17:23 and profit? 2010-11-16 17:23 :P 2010-11-16 17:24 and add some extra layers on top of that (gtkmm, wxwidgets, ...) for extra-bloatedness 2010-11-16 17:24 and I want a ppa 2010-11-16 17:24 lekernel: Motif ! pfui ! ;-) 2010-11-16 17:24 because my ubuntu install can be torn to pieces 2010-11-16 17:24 (preferably not, but it is already broken) 2010-11-16 17:25 lekernel: and how is all that the fault of X ? you'll get the same quickly enough on any popular infrastructure 2010-11-16 17:26 not that much on Mac, except for ports of X applications 2010-11-16 17:27 which most Mac users hate btw 2010-11-16 17:28 (which btw is not only because cocoa/aqua is so much better, but as well since x11 on macosx is so much PIA :)) 2010-11-16 17:28 imo it's time to drop network pseudo-transparency and legacy crap like ICCCM and do like apple does - since apparently no one does it better 2010-11-16 17:28 lekernel: well, mac is a bit of a special environment anyway. nice and tidy, but still much of a prison camp. 2010-11-16 17:29 *popcorn* 2010-11-16 17:32 what surprises me a bit is that people who want to replace X tend to want to replace X as their first step, before actually getting the alternative to work. e.g., the current wayward hype is all about rendering in the client and pushing bitmaps. you don't need to get rid of X to do this. 2010-11-16 17:32 why don't they put the widget set in the server? at least, this will force anyone to use the same widgets and get rid of the qt/gtk/motif/whatever mess 2010-11-16 17:33 perhaps because people like to have a choice of widgets ? 2010-11-16 17:34 nice choice, that. it led to the complete fuckup the Linux GUI is 2010-11-16 17:36 dunno. there is convergence on style. most of the basics look quite similar nowadays. similar enough that it's no big effort to use the common things in new applications. it used to be much worse in the old days. 2010-11-16 17:36 even ms-windows does that with some success 2010-11-16 17:36 of course, many applications still need learning, but that's for stuff that's specific to them 2010-11-16 17:36 there are plenty of end user applications for all sorts of purposes, nearly all using the same widget set 2010-11-16 17:37 it's only on *nix that you have this mess around the GUI 2010-11-16 17:38 you can probably just stay in one of those worlds and be happy. i'm sure gnome and kde each have the same set of basic utilities. 2010-11-16 17:38 and i'm sorry to say, but the x11-based GUIs are slower than the windows xp GUI 2010-11-16 17:39 (despite what the "recycle your old PC with Linux" people say) 2010-11-16 17:39 i use my desktop to do work, not to run benchmarks, so i don't really know how slow it is ;-) 2010-11-16 17:41 (and yes, i can watch movies in good quality on it too :) 2010-11-16 17:42 awesome ! 2010-11-16 17:42 hides 2010-11-16 17:42 lekernel: one advantage of xfbdev on little devices is that it works out of the box. We have around 10 different WM to use and control applications running at the same time.. Then there are many applications written during 15 years to test and use. Check this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKAa_JbEokk .. WE did this env without to write a just one line of source code. 2010-11-16 17:42 lekernel: there a lot of problems and cons.. i know.. but in comparison.. i see that qi-openwrt uses gmenu2x.. a crapy thing 2010-11-16 17:43 which has improved a lot writting/modifying it 2010-11-16 17:43 if they want to change gmenu2x there is not choice 2010-11-16 17:43 and they spending months and months improving that 2010-11-16 17:43 well. with xfbdev there we have around 10+, 20 perhaps differents goods GUI menus to use as launcher or similar.. 2010-11-16 17:44 lekernel: but again.. I know that there are a lot of cons with X.. but we used it because we do not need to write any line of source code... it just works.. 2010-11-16 17:44 that's what I said: everyone focuses on the X11 crap 2010-11-16 17:44 and we have a lot of applications there to use and we like it 2010-11-16 17:45 so in the end you have plenty of apps 2010-11-16 17:45 major bugs are fixed 2010-11-16 17:45 etc. 2010-11-16 17:45 but that doesn't make X good per se 2010-11-16 17:45 it just makes it a necessary evil 2010-11-16 17:46 lekernel: yes.. of course. I understand you.. 2010-11-16 17:46 lekernel: and we use it at jlime because we are not a lot of people and we are not good developing new stuff.. we are goddÂ Â using and setting the current stuff 2010-11-16 17:48 okay i hope i can play videos on milkymist that will be awesome :D 2010-11-16 19:19 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/fft: one more analysis tool for antenna measurements http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/489acc4 2010-11-16 19:19 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/range: obtain avg/min/max from a series of values and eliminate outliers http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c4d906b 2010-11-16 19:19 [commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/README: description of the preparation for antenna measurements. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cc5090b 2010-11-16 19:46 [commit] Mirko Vogt: [ncurses] mark ncurses as broken, since it interferes with http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/336e098 2010-11-16 20:08 wolfspraul: good morning :) 2010-11-16 20:13 mirko: hi good morning! :-) 2010-11-16 20:13 I saw the backlog that kyak said his Qt bug went away with the framebuf ENV variable. that's good :-) 2010-11-16 20:13 wolfspraul: just sent a mail to the list regarding the qi-repo "openwrt-packages" 2010-11-16 20:13 wolfspraul: unfortunately i still have this behaviour with nanomap 2010-11-16 20:14 yes, read that too 2010-11-16 20:14