2010-11-08 01:13 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add gcc-mips, fixed in openwrt package: 8dbf61c, tested in build hosts http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1c3892a 2010-11-08 02:01 xiangfu: just for info, gcc-mips still build fine on x86 (in case you couldn't test it) 2010-11-08 02:01 kyak: thanks. 2010-11-08 02:02 no, thank you! :) 2010-11-08 02:34 kyak: Hi I am thinking set the mac address and mtd partitions in kernel cmdline. 2010-11-08 03:31 xiangfu: does it mean that mac address will be the same for all Bens? This doesn't sound very good.. Is there a way to make it unique for every Ben, but persistent for every device? (right now it changes after every reflash) 2010-11-08 03:32 xiangfu: for mtd partitions in kernel cmdline - would do you mean exactly? 2010-11-08 03:33 kyak: http://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/MTD_CMDLINE_PARTS.html 2010-11-08 03:35 xiangfu: how does it help to specify the mtd partitions at kernel cmdline? 2010-11-08 03:36 kyak: there are some people may don't want use root(512), data(1.5G). they want keep the old partition. 2010-11-08 03:36 or someone want 2G for the whole rootfs. 2010-11-08 03:36 so the partitions won't be hardcoded? 2010-11-08 03:37 this is a very good idea.. just to make sure that reflash_ben.sh won't spoil data partition with rootfs data.. 2010-11-08 03:38 kyak: oh.. yes. correct. 2010-11-08 03:39 maybe reflash_ben.sh can read the partition data from som file, which could be generated during build process 2010-11-08 03:40 kyak: I think we just keep the reflash_ben.sh like that. but change name to reflash_openwrt.sh, 2010-11-08 03:40 then people know this scripts file is just for reflash_openwrt. not for Debian or jlime. 2010-11-08 03:41 current reflash_ben.sh (on the web site) will flash 256 Mb roots 2010-11-08 03:41 but the one in git is modified for 512 Mb 2010-11-08 03:42 how we can handle that? 2010-11-08 03:42 kyak: oh. sorry. I forget to update, reflash_ben.sh in website is a link to [history] branch. 2010-11-08 03:43 that's why the reflash_ben.sh is still 256Mb. 2010-11-08 03:43 yes, and this is OK, because we don't have an image with 512 Mb rootfs yet 2010-11-08 03:46 we just need to be consistent somehow with reflash_ben.sh... make sure that the correct version of reflash_ben.sh is used with 512Mb images (newer ones) and another one with 256 Mb 2010-11-08 03:48 xiangfu: is there a way to modify kernel cmdline without booting into the system? 2010-11-08 03:48 i think those who want 256 Mb or 2Gb rootfs will have to rebuild image anyway 2010-11-08 03:49 so maybe giving mtd partitions via kernel cmdline is not needed after all? 2010-11-08 03:49 kyak: no. they can use fw_setenv to set the kernel command line 2010-11-08 03:49 but they have to boot into system for that? 2010-11-08 03:50 and this booting may or may not be sucessfull depending on rootfs size 2010-11-08 03:55 yes. 256Mb or 2Gb rootfs must rebuild the .ubi file 2010-11-08 03:55 yes. they have to boot into system for modify kernel command line. 2010-11-08 03:56 kyak: if he want change the u-boot or kernel partition, things got even worse . 2010-11-08 03:56 kyak: thanks. for now just keep the partition hardcoded in kernel. 2010-11-08 03:57 xiangfu: yup.. would be better to leave it like this 2010-11-08 03:57 btw, i myself chechout the previous version of board-qi_lb60.c with 256 Mb :) 2010-11-08 03:58 i wonder how much the boot time will increase with 512 Mb.. have you tried it? 2010-11-08 04:02 kyak: not yet. 2010-11-08 04:03 xiangfu: what about the mac address? is it hardcoded somewhere or what? 2010-11-08 04:04 kyak: no. it's generate by kernel. I am not understand the kernel policy about the dynamical mac address. 2010-11-08 04:05 kyak: someone have report a bug: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-nanonote/issues/7/ 2010-11-08 04:17 xiangfu, kyak: you're about to enter the next level of complexity with NAND partitions :) if you choose to create the equivalent of a partition table, all your flash procedures then have to treat this as "sacred" data. 2010-11-08 04:18 before you even think of a technical solution for this, perhaps it's best to first consider how you handle cases where things go wrong. e.g., when a ben has lost its partition table, how do you recover ? 2010-11-08 04:19 there are two issues: a) there may still be good data on the Ben you want to make recover by recovering the partition table. b) even if you decide to start from scratch, your usage (e.g., what stuff you install) may require a certain partition setup or you'll run into problems later. 2010-11-08 04:21 of course, one possibility would be to consider partition sizes to be now fixed for all times, and adapt to this accordingly (e.g., if the rootfs overflows again in may 2011, you'd introduce /home/opt/ or whatever) 2010-11-08 04:22 other "sacred" data would be the MAC address. again, let's first consider how you can recover it. e.g., is there any non-eraseable information, machine-readable or not, on the ben you can use to identify it ? 2010-11-08 04:23 i would think about such place in USB chip 2010-11-08 04:24 which USB chip ? 2010-11-08 04:24 (like in NIC cards) 2010-11-08 04:24 the one that provides USB connectivity on Ben.. dont' know what is it 2010-11-08 04:25 but as xiangfu mentioned, the mac adress is set by ethernet_gadget driver 2010-11-08 04:26 maybe this driver can identify the USB chip in unique way and generate a mac address for it 2010-11-08 04:26 there's no extra chip for this :) the USB device functionality is a block in the Jz4720 2010-11-08 04:27 kyak: see page 2 of http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/9/9c/Lb60_schematic.pdf 2010-11-08 04:28 all the USB-related external components are passive. some beads/chokes, capacitors, that's it. all the rest happens in the CPU. 2010-11-08 04:29 there doesn't seem to be any sort of chip on the device - other than the NAND itself - that can hold persistent data 2010-11-08 04:29 one problem with the NAND is that most of the flashing procedures assume that it's okay to just erase everything 2010-11-08 04:30 so if you want "sacred" data, you basically have three choices: 1) change all the instructions to avoid erasing that data. 2) change the tools such that they won't erase it. 3) find a mechanism that doesn't depend on the NAND content. 2010-11-08 04:32 wpwrak: oh... thanks Werner, I will try to focus on other bugs. :). just leave the nand partitions and mac address as it is :) 2010-11-08 04:33 wpwrak: very good explanation, thanks :) 2010-11-08 04:34 leave for awhile, back later. 2010-11-08 04:35 wpwrak: do you know if maybe Jz4720 has some unique ID that can be read from it? 2010-11-08 04:37 because if it does... or if there is another way to identify each Ben in unique way, then it might be possible to have a fixed mac address at th end 2010-11-08 04:39 kyak: unfortunately, i don't know of any unique id. (but maybe someone else knows something ?) 2010-11-08 04:40 kyak: as far as I know, there's no human-readable ID either. sticker with serial number, or such. 2010-11-08 04:40 oh, maybe the serial number can be read from it with software? 2010-11-08 04:41 one possibility for a key would perhaps be the order number or such. but i'm not sure that's convenient to retrieve. also, people with more than one ben may find this confusing :) 2010-11-08 04:43 wolfspraul: btw, rafa is looking for you. (he needs a location to host the "safe" jlime packages.) he should be up within a couple of hours or so 2010-11-08 04:44 sure 2010-11-08 04:45 I'm back online now, no worries 2010-11-08 04:45 where do those mp3 packages come from? 2010-11-08 04:45 kyak: some MCUs have a serial number that's stored at some safe place inside. but as far as i know, the ingenic cpu's don't have such a thing. 2010-11-08 04:45 wolfspraul: dunno. maybe a standard openwrt build. 2010-11-08 04:46 wolfspraul: that stuff is also quite old. are these packages even still considered valid yet ? 2010-11-08 04:46 hmm.. does the safe distro share the repository with the unsafe one, or not? 2010-11-08 04:46 wpwrak: yes they are old, maybe overlooked. anyway thanks for the headsup, I just deleted those for now. 2010-11-08 04:46 maybe we need to delete/rebuild all of them... 2010-11-08 04:46 zear: for jlime ? i think it would be best to have a completely separate mirror of the "safe" distro, on *.qi-hardware.com 2010-11-08 04:47 yeah, the thing is, a lot of my game ports will have mp3 music support 2010-11-08 04:47 zear: can't you convert the music ? 2010-11-08 04:47 if you're willing to rewrite the music engine for each of them ;) 2010-11-08 04:48 zear: oh. each has their own MP3 decoder ? 2010-11-08 04:48 no, but i'm not a programmer, i don't know how to replace mp3 music with ogg tremor one 2010-11-08 04:48 additionally, a lot of them are engine reimplementations 2010-11-08 04:49 i don't know if you can fill a lawsuit if someone has an engine reimplementation of your game in his repo 2010-11-08 04:49 wolfspraul: downloads is a little chaotic anyway. perhaps this will be an opportunity to rearrange it a bit. e.g., with more than one distro, perhaps more specific names could be used. 2010-11-08 04:50 zear: aren't the games already modified to some extent ? 2010-11-08 04:50 a couple of them are fine, because their base on gpl'ed engines, like duke 3d, quake or doom, but some other, like HOMM2, or Commander Keen are rewritten from scratch because the original engines were never released 2010-11-08 04:50 zear: and if you're talking about MP3/other codec patent owners: yes, even if the code is someone else's, they can still get you if you distribute it 2010-11-08 04:51 no, i'm talking about making games that reuse someone's datafiles and game logic 2010-11-08 04:51 despite being coded from scratch 2010-11-08 04:51 but being coded in order to imitate the original engine 2010-11-08 04:52 some of them even base on recompiled and studied original binaries of the games ;) 2010-11-08 04:52 zear: i somehow think that changing from MP3 to something else would be the least of the worries there ;-) 2010-11-08 04:53 as the rest is up to the game makers, and in most cases they are already nonexistent, or the ownership rights are in hands of someone else? :D 2010-11-08 04:53 zear: reverse-engineered engines may have their own set of legal problems. even worse if you need some pirated level files/artwork/etc. in order to actually use them. 2010-11-08 04:54 anyway, if they read this chat, they could sure sue qi-hardware if they had that games in their repo :D 2010-11-08 04:54 zear: i may be wrong, but i have the impression that jlime has some things that aren't quite clean in this regard 2010-11-08 04:54 wpwrak, the problem is, you cannot tell which ones were reverse-engineered and which were not 2010-11-08 04:54 some authors are nice enough to admit they decompiled the original binary 2010-11-08 04:55 but some of them don't mention anything, so you can't be sure if they just written it from scratch, or based it on decompiled enginre 2010-11-08 04:55 zear: maybe ignore the engine for now and consider the levels/artwork. if that one is openly distributed by the original maker, you're probably safe 2010-11-08 04:55 *engine 2010-11-08 04:55 hah, that's a bigger problem then 2010-11-08 04:55 no, even the gpled engines, like duke3d or doom, still require original game data from you 2010-11-08 04:55 zear: if there's an engine but you're supposed to obtain these things from somewhere else, you're deep in the grey zone ... 2010-11-08 04:56 i know of no games that got their engine released on gpl along with their datafiles 2010-11-08 04:56 maybe some smaller fishes, but not the big titles 2010-11-08 04:56 zear: original game data per se is okay, as long as the company that owns it has released it under terms that permit this kind of use and redistribution. or at least if they have issues a statement to that extent. some have done this. 2010-11-08 04:56 this should be fine as long as you don't include that datafiles in the ipk, am i right? 2010-11-08 04:57 well, none of the engine reimplementations that were made without the original authors releasing their code, will suffer from this kind of issue 2010-11-08 04:57 i mean, all of them :D 2010-11-08 04:58 zear: it's something i would consider at least potentially dangerous. particularly if it's unlikely that you could have the artwork without pirating it. e.g., if the original game device has some sort of copy protection, all "cd images" would basically have to be pirated (there are exceptions, but they're often on uncertain legal ground) 2010-11-08 04:59 zear: again, let's look at the artwork first. i think artwork is more dangerous than the engine itself. 2010-11-08 04:59 well, all the engine reimplementation authors are kind enough to keep/reimplement the original copy protections mechanisms 2010-11-08 04:59 ;-))) 2010-11-08 04:59 like, they will still ask you for the words on page X of the manual :D 2010-11-08 05:00 "and here is floppy_laser_hole() ..." ;-) 2010-11-08 05:00 although you could simply comment out such a line :D 2010-11-08 05:01 well, to be honest i don't care of the "safe" flavour of jlime 2010-11-08 05:01 won't use it 2010-11-08 05:01 i will release all my games for the free as in freedom flavour 2010-11-08 05:01 and it will be up to safe maintainters to select only the safe games 2010-11-08 05:01 though i just wanted to raise the problem 2010-11-08 05:02 zear: you don't have to use it :) but it's still bad if there's material that can get others in trouble. also, it's not so nice if jlime or qi-hardware gets the image of being strongly associated with warez 2010-11-08 05:02 zear: that may scare away many customers 2010-11-08 05:03 don't worry, i'll never include any illegal files in my game ports 2010-11-08 05:03 and if they require some 3rd party datafiles, it's all up to the user to get the original floppy/cd 2010-11-08 05:03 also, if there are non-free games, you're not actually propagating freedom by distributing them despite that being illegal. 2010-11-08 05:03 well, the engine reimplementation is gpl 2010-11-08 05:03 and i'm redistributing them without the datafiles 2010-11-08 05:03 it would be much better if you'd instead make something similar but better - and free, of course 2010-11-08 05:04 so yes, it's still freedom, despite being unplayable without the datafiles :D 2010-11-08 05:05 yeah, i think the data files are the key. if you can get them "cleanly", then i don't think there's a problem 2010-11-08 05:05 i understand the problem qi-hardware has, but i find it to be exaggerated, and i still find that engine reimplementations on gpl == freedom :P 2010-11-08 05:05 you can get them cleanly on ebay 2010-11-08 05:06 unless second hand legal datafiles are counted as piracy 2010-11-08 05:07 ah, that's an interesting issue :) i think there are court decisions that go either way. but if you can get them cleanly on ebay, that would imply that there's no copy protection on them. 2010-11-08 05:07 this would make them relatively safe 2010-11-08 05:08 another thing is, nobody has floppy drives anymore 2010-11-08 05:08 so if you buy a legal floppy copy, are you allowed to use the datafiles from a different source? 2010-11-08 05:09 duh. that's a tricky one. 2010-11-08 05:09 maybe check if the company still exists. with things on floppies, there's a good chance that nobody is around anymore to trouble you ;-) 2010-11-08 05:10 true :D 2010-11-08 05:11 yet another thing is, that people are unaware of the GPL license terms, i have seen a lawsuit where someone after a police raid was accused of using illegal software with the damage to "GPL" company 2010-11-08 05:12 hmm. that sounds interesting :-) 2010-11-08 05:12 did they sentence him to be drawn and quartered by wild gnus ? 2010-11-08 05:12 hehe, no idea, i have only seen the paper 2010-11-08 05:13 here: http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6245/profesjonalizm4bp.jpg 2010-11-08 05:13 now, how do i decrypt this ? ;-) 2010-11-08 05:13 you can depend on me ;) 2010-11-08 05:15 it simply says that person used two programs which caused the undetermined damage for the GNU General Public License Free Software Foundation company 2010-11-08 05:15 i like how using programs causes damage for the license, not the original authors ;) 2010-11-08 05:15 zear: someone got something very wrong there ;) 2010-11-08 05:16 the guy definitely lost the case as in whole, there are a lot of other illegal programs he used in this lawsuit 2010-11-08 05:28 zear: perhaps it would help to classify those games/engines into three categories: 1) engine and artwork are free or with explicit permission to use. 2010-11-08 05:29 2) artwork comes from some copy-protected media or is otherwise known to be used without permission. 3) all others. 2010-11-08 05:30 1) should be perfectly safe. they're good to promote the capabilities of the device, without incurring any risks, or exposing others to risks. 2010-11-08 05:30 i'd add a 4) where it is known the game was created by reverse engineering the original 2010-11-08 05:32 2) are things qi-hardware probably shouldn't touch. doing otherwise would be reckless (exposing qi-hardware) and irresponsible (exposing others who trust qi-hardware to provide them with "safe" material) 2010-11-08 05:33 3 and 4) these are a grey area. i think it would help to better understand what do to here if we could have such a classification, perhaps with additional details. (e.g., what is the most common way for getting artwork, what is the status of the engine, etc.) 2010-11-08 05:34 wpwrak, for example, Commander Genius (Commander Keen remake) uses only level maps and sounds from the original 2010-11-08 05:34 as far as i know, most of the modern engines are indeed open. e.g., the doom and quake engine, no ? 2010-11-08 05:35 though the gfx and music are all remade (athough the gfx still looks like the original, just refreshed, so it still isn't legal i think) 2010-11-08 05:35 doom still requires original datafiles 2010-11-08 05:35 though there is the "freedoom" version of game 2010-11-08 05:35 which is fully gpl 2010-11-08 05:35 as for quake, they were nice enough to release maps on gpl 2010-11-08 05:35 so all you need to do is to remake the textures and models 2010-11-08 05:35 to have a fully opensource game 2010-11-08 05:36 for 3 and 4), one could also try to find the current owners of the material, and ask them 2010-11-08 05:36 chances are that you'll get a friendly response for at least some of the old material 2010-11-08 05:37 or a cease and desist letter ;P 2010-11-08 05:37 most of the "only engine was GPL-ed" games have a shareware version though 2010-11-08 05:37 you can use the data files from that 2010-11-08 05:37 mth: ah yes, shareware is good, too 2010-11-08 05:37 mth, to some extent 2010-11-08 05:38 some of them might forbid you from preinstalling it on commercial devices 2010-11-08 05:38 zear: (cease and desist) well, better get it before you've done something that could cost you or others money :) 2010-11-08 05:53 xiangfu: btw, is the rootfs size change in the kernel or does it come via u-boot ? (with mtdparts) 2010-11-08 05:57 rafa: by the way, regarding the rootfs size change, i would suggest that all distros make that change, but that the partition layout is then frozen. there are still only relatively few bens around, and most of them aren't exactly "mission-critical", so this still isn't a horrible time to make such a change. 2010-11-08 05:57 rafa: but the more time passes, the worse the effect of such a change. so this should probably be the last time, too. (for the ben) 2010-11-08 06:24 hmm i noticed that Ingenic has optimized MPlayer here http://www.ingenic.cn/eng/productServ/kfyd/Linux/pfCustomPage.aspx 2010-11-08 06:26 i downloaded it and there are separate changes for jz4740 and jz4750 (very different) 2010-11-08 06:26 i wonder if this is helpfull for jz4720 2010-11-08 06:26 wpwrak: yes, but is the idea nice?.. WEll, suppose that we change to reflect that change.. But why just 256MB for rootfs? 2010-11-08 06:28 wpwrak: I would not agree, We have 2GB of repo of software .. which umcompresed who know.. so there is a nice amount of software to test/install whatever.. 256MB for me, when nand is 2GB is no the best idea. 2010-11-08 06:28 i haven't noticed any issues with MPlayer other than this squeky noise when rewinding 2010-11-08 06:29 xiangfu: hey 2010-11-08 06:34 rafa: if i understand this correctly, the change is to go from 256 MB to 512 MB. 2010-11-08 06:35 xiangfu: experiencing issues as well 2010-11-08 06:35 wpwrak: zear : we are talking of different things I think. 2010-11-08 06:36 kyak: maybe put a bit of oil in the tape drive ? ;-) 2010-11-08 06:36 was there a note about that change (256 -> 512) except in the commit log? 2010-11-08 06:36 wpwrak: zear: the safe jlime distro just will use the safe repo, no unsafe 2010-11-08 06:36 mirko: there was a brief mail by xiangfu, informing of the change 2010-11-08 06:36 oh, so i missed it 2010-11-08 06:36 wpwrak: zear : zear, your games ported were not packaged yet, so nobody can install them from opkg or package manager. 2010-11-08 06:37 wpwrak: zear : zear, just fheroes 2010-11-08 06:37 mirko: if xiangfu was the sneaky kind, then you'd think that would have been his intention ;-)) 2010-11-08 06:37 wpwrak: zear : and no.. the odd games with mp3 inside or strange data files will not go to the safe repo. 2010-11-08 06:37 rafa: excellent, thanks ! 2010-11-08 06:38 was already having nightmares of tons of warez piling up in jlime :) 2010-11-08 06:38 wpwrak: (about 256MB->512MB).. bah!.. every day there are new news about :D 2010-11-08 06:38 wpwrak: hmm? 2010-11-08 06:39 wpwrak: what do you mean exactly? :) 2010-11-08 06:39 mirko: well, such partition changes are usually a big deal. so someone who anticipates that may try to create facts before anyone else has time to complain. 2010-11-08 06:40 wpwrak: yes, i totally agree 2010-11-08 06:40 that's why i'm a bit unhapy with the situation right now 2010-11-08 06:40 *unhappy 2010-11-08 06:40 mirko: now, i don't see xiangfu doing this sort of thing, but the evil half of my brain finds the implementation pleasing anyway ;-) 2010-11-08 06:41 we were discussing this change 2010-11-08 06:41 mirko: please, keep just one layout for ever :) 2010-11-08 06:41 well, i'd love to... 2010-11-08 06:41 *sigh* 2010-11-08 06:41 mirko: yup. i saw the discussion. the implementation was just a bit ... sudden. 2010-11-08 06:42 indeed 2010-11-08 06:42 rafa, mirko: for a stable layout, the question would be: what do you do if you overflow rootfs the next time ? do the distros have a means to install things in different locations ? e.g., /opt/openoffice instead of /usr/*/openoffice ? 2010-11-08 06:43 sorry, libreoffice, of course 2010-11-08 06:46 a stable layout would avoid a lot of complexity, namely the introduction of some sort of partition table, and making all the processes and tools compatible with it. partition tables aren't a big deal on non-NAND media, because the rules are old and everyone, including all the tools, know them. with NAND, there's no standard, so you get plenty of chaos ... 2010-11-08 06:47 we can't seriously talk about stability right now, when Ben is being developed so actively 2010-11-08 06:48 we are changing uClibc version here and there 2010-11-08 06:48 wpwrak: for Ben I do not like to have rootfs/data.. 2GB for one partition and we will not talk about this again ;) 2010-11-08 06:48 the git layout is being changed too (i hope it won't anymore) 2010-11-08 06:49 right now there are Bens overthere that are not binarry compatible between each other 2010-11-08 06:50 rafa: the boot time will increase dramaticlly 2010-11-08 06:51 also, there will bo no safe place between reflashes 2010-11-08 06:51 yup. these are the problems. 2010-11-08 06:51 otherwise, i'd like the one big FS as well :) 2010-11-08 06:51 kyak: how dramatically? With jlime running X+WM+Desktop on nand it is 15sec I would say. And we have not done anything to improve the time yet. 2010-11-08 06:52 kristianpaul: for safe place between reflased.. yes.. that is something to check. 2010-11-08 06:52 kyak: for safe place between reflased.. yes.. that is something to check. 2010-11-08 06:52 kristianpaul: sorry :) 2010-11-08 06:53 rafa: dunnoo.. it takes i think around 10 seconds to mount that 1.7 Gb partition 2010-11-08 06:56 ubi needs to scan for it's end-of-fs-marker 2010-11-08 06:56 like most nand-filesystems 2010-11-08 06:57 kyak: it took around 6-7 seconds to mount.. yes I just checked (we use the whole partition). But anyway.. a few seconds more and boot is done.. I would not change that layout just to get a few seconds more.. I mean.. We (jlime) would not be happy to change that from time to time. And you could say "hey, nobody tells you that you should change your layout".. but then we would not working to do a dual-booting feature.. because if jlime can not mount the open 2010-11-08 06:58 we would not working=we would not be working 2010-11-08 07:05 a hard-coded layout only works if it doesn't change often, that's for sure. so you have three choices: 1) don't hard-code it but invents some sort of partition table (with the "sacred" data it brings, etc.), 2) decide on one layout and keep it "forever", 3) avoid partitioning and deal with the consequences 2010-11-08 07:06 now, the door to which hell shall it be ? (-:C 2010-11-08 07:09 rafa: btw, wolfgang should be here. you can ask him about the mirror location 2010-11-08 07:09 i just talked to him... he is out for dinner and will be back soon 2010-11-08 07:10 mirko: thanks 2010-11-08 07:23 rafa: what can I help with? 2010-11-08 07:24 wolfspraul: 1TB of space 2010-11-08 07:24 no, just kidding :D 2010-11-08 07:25 wolfspraul: we would like to host a jlime repo without packages with patented technologies. For the safe jlime 2010-11-08 07:25 version for qi / resellers. 2010-11-08 07:25 wolfspraul: The requirements are: 2010-11-08 07:25 - the repo is around 1.8GB of size so far. And without packages with patented 2010-11-08 07:25 Â Â technologies it would be a bit smaller. 2010-11-08 07:25 - opkg uses http access, so we should be able to get packages with wget and the 2010-11-08 07:26 Â Â repo would be ready to use I think. 2010-11-08 07:26 - you should copy the repo either with a script (we will give you it) which use 2010-11-08 07:26 Â Â a list of packages with patented technologies, or you do the mirror and 2010-11-08 07:26 Â Â remove the problematic packages of it. 2010-11-08 07:26 maybe put it on downloads.qi-hardware.com ? 2010-11-08 07:26 rafa: maybe easier if wolfgang just gives you an account on whatever machine will host these things, so you can put the scrips there yourself ? 2010-11-08 07:26 of course :-) 2010-11-08 07:27 rafa: email me your pubkey and I give you root access, then you can do whatever you want 2010-11-08 07:27 wolfspraul: okey, I will 2010-11-08 07:27 what should the location be like ? 2010-11-08 07:27 I hope just removing will work, some packages may need different configuration options to be patent-free 2010-11-08 07:28 wolfspraul: btw thanks a lot to support the idea 2010-11-08 07:30 hmm, does http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/certification/FCC_Test_Report_20090901.pdf 2010-11-08 07:30 say that the ben does not pass fcc limits ? :) 2010-11-08 07:30 wolfspraul: well, so far the best idea is just to remove those problematic packages. If many packages have the chance to be built to be patent-free is a hard work to do so far 2010-11-08 07:32 of course, the later report in 2009_12_09_sharism_ben/ says it does. maybe some file needs moving ? 2010-11-08 07:33 rafa: your removal method also removes them from the index, right ? 2010-11-08 07:33 wpwrak: yes 2010-11-08 07:33 wpwrak: we had several go-arounds on the FCC cert 2010-11-08 07:35 wolfspraul: so it seems :) the organization in certification/ is a bit confusing. FCC_Test_Report_20090901.pdf in the top-level suggests that it is the most relevant file, yet it doesn't seem to be 2010-11-08 07:35 wolfspraul: also, 2009_09_30_final/ apparently isn't final 2010-11-08 07:35 wpwrak: but no removes the packages which need the problematic packages. For example, suppose that A is a safe package, A needs of B installed. B is unsafe package. My method removes B. A will be there, but we can not install/use it, because B is removed. 2010-11-08 07:36 rafa: okay, looks like a feature for version 2.0 :-) 2010-11-08 07:36 rafa: it would also be better for the user experience if you don't offer packages they can't install 2010-11-08 07:37 wpwrak: yes, of course. Feature for 2.0 :) 2010-11-08 07:38 wolfspraul: now, software/ ... should jlime live there as software/jlime/ ? if yes, would it be confusing to have software/images/ and software/packages/ that are not compatible with jlime, yet use a name that suggests they are somehow general ? 2010-11-08 07:41 wolfspraul: oh, that's nice: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/mechanical/ben/2009_09_13/P1010401.JPG 2010-11-08 07:42 wolfspraul: no more confusion about false screen protectors ;-) 2010-11-08 07:46 wpwrak: I have no problem with renaming but we need to communicate it properly. 2010-11-08 07:47 we just had this case with the 256->512MB rootfs change that wasn't communicated well 2010-11-08 07:47 wpwrak: [picture] yeah, I like that! that is clear! :-) 2010-11-08 07:48 wolfspraul: (communicate) sure. if there's a rename, maybe even have a transition period with a link 2010-11-08 08:13 hi all ! 2010-11-08 08:14 much more populated than #gta02-core ! 2010-11-08 08:15 drizzt: hi :-) 2010-11-08 08:21 drizzt: indeed :) 2010-11-08 08:21 hi wpwrak :) 2010-11-08 08:22 drizzt: joining the ranks of the happy owners of tiny linux devices with a keyboard ? :) 2010-11-08 08:23 nano notes ? 2010-11-08 08:23 aye 2010-11-08 08:24 not yet, got too much to do, not even got time to play with my freerunner anymore 2010-11-08 08:29 drizzt: what? not a NanoNote owner? 2010-11-08 08:29 hmm 2010-11-08 08:29 our bot should take care of that... 2010-11-08 08:30 ok, email sent 2010-11-08 08:31 feel free to ask for information 2010-11-08 08:37 according to Ingenic's site, WinCE is also ported to jz47 2010-11-08 08:38 this is interesting 2010-11-08 08:49 kyak, well, since you can't get ahold of wince source code, trying to run such a port on the nn would be pointless 2010-11-08 08:50 while it would boot, there would be problems with keyboard, lcd and all the other drivers, imo 2010-11-08 08:50 zear: ingenic provides something for this.. i'm not sure exactly what 2010-11-08 08:52 some documentation at least :) 2010-11-08 09:05 wolfspraul: 2010-11-08 09:05 wpwrak: 2010-11-08 09:06 for the quotation request, could you give a first estimation (global) for tomorow ? 2010-11-08 09:06 we have a meeting with an "incubator" and he asked us for estimations 2010-11-08 09:07 what I have from other projects is between 30.000 and 60.000 euros 2010-11-08 09:08 (global estimations, for the development part only, from phytec) 2010-11-08 09:08 drizzt: for 30-60K EUR, you can expect us at least (!) to fly you to Mars and back 2010-11-08 09:09 lol 2010-11-08 09:09 Werner's new outer-space engine will make it possible... his current estimate is that it should be ready in 2 weeks. right wpwrak ? 2010-11-08 09:09 drizzt: what would be the deliverables and the timeline ? 2010-11-08 09:09 wpwrak: he sent us a mail I think 2010-11-08 09:09 but I still need to log off now, long day... 2010-11-08 09:10 drizzt: don't worry you have an answer tomorrow 2010-11-08 09:10 wolfspraul: actually, that's -2 weeks. with tachyons, you have to reverse the time vector. 2010-11-08 09:10 deliverables depend on what you do, but something like BOM, schematics and layout 2010-11-08 09:11 drizzt: no prototypes, software, ... ? 2010-11-08 09:11 prototypes yes 2010-11-08 09:11 software it's my job 2010-11-08 09:11 drizzt: you mention certification. i think you also need software for that. 2010-11-08 09:12 yep, I'm doing it for another project right now 2010-11-08 09:13 working on a TI davinci :) 2010-11-08 09:13 drizzt: also, what would be the openness requirements ? 2010-11-08 09:14 for the timeline, 3 to six months would be great for first operationnal prototypes 2010-11-08 09:15 openness, if it depended on me alone, it would be copyleft 2010-11-08 09:16 drizzt: okay, a) openness of input (components used, etc.), b) openness of output (design, etc.) 2010-11-08 09:16 (prototypes) how many ? 2010-11-08 09:16 but I have two "partners", one working with free software already, but the other comming from the medical market, and it hard to make him remove the word"patents" from his vocabulary 2010-11-08 09:17 a) openness of input : preferably with no NDA for documentation 2010-11-08 09:17 drizzt: do it like they do on tv - make a little device that emits a loud been when the foul word is uttered :) 2010-11-08 09:17 beeP 2010-11-08 09:18 b) openness of output : actually a licence like CC-by-sa-nc 2010-11-08 09:19 wolfspraul: i'm not familiar with any of the three socs. you ? 2010-11-08 09:19 prototypes ... at least three I think, maybe more depending on what tests we need to perform 2010-11-08 09:20 one more for each destructive test requiered, though I do not see any, but on the project I'm working for, they used some prototypes for destructive tests 2010-11-08 09:20 drizzt: I won't do anything -nc 2010-11-08 09:22 yup, -nc is bad 2010-11-08 09:22 I'd like not to do -nc, but the problem is that we cannot spend 100 to 150Keuro on the project and see the device copied before we manage to sell it 2010-11-08 09:23 it's intended to a quite concurential market 2010-11-08 09:24 wonders what is the mysterious device these guys are talking about 2010-11-08 09:24 but if you know of a way to keep the openness and prevent the bad case I just mentionned, I'll much more than happy :) 2010-11-08 09:24 I'll be much more than happy :) 2010-11-08 09:24 it's usually surprisingly hard to get people to steal from you ;-) 2010-11-08 09:24 this alone would bring me to mars and back :) 2010-11-08 09:26 besides, if someone is really after stealing, the -nc won't stop them 2010-11-08 09:27 kyak: let's say we'd like to do what openmoko did for the cellphone market, but on a much less mature market 2010-11-08 09:27 thus giving the project much more opportunities 2010-11-08 09:27 what is this market? 2010-11-08 09:28 domotics 2010-11-08 09:28 win 17 2010-11-08 09:28 lol 2010-11-08 09:28 oops 2010-11-08 09:28 sounds interesting 2010-11-08 09:29 domotics and tablet PC in fact 2010-11-08 09:29 kyak: something like the arduino, but programmed in COBOL, for its close resemblance to natural language :) 2010-11-08 09:29 what we see in films, but actually costs an arm and an eye 2010-11-08 09:29 kyak: 6-bit characters, of course. 0 is signed. 2010-11-08 09:30 this market isn't free, but it definitely lacks some open-source solutions 2010-11-08 09:30 yes 2010-11-08 09:31 that's what brought our project up 2010-11-08 09:31 wpwrak: you can make jokes and teach me something new at the same time, you know? :) 2010-11-08 09:31 ;-)) 2010-11-08 09:32 so 2010-11-08 09:32 wpwrak: 2010-11-08 09:32 wolfspraul: 2010-11-08 09:32 let me know for the quotation, along with the conditions :) 2010-11-08 09:32 drizzt: yes 2010-11-08 09:32 thanks a lot for bringing it up! 2010-11-08 09:33 none are "out of order", I'll just have to work harder to make my partners see the interest 2010-11-08 09:33 yup, pondering it ... 2010-11-08 09:34 drizzt: for domotics, the system seem rather feature-rich. have you considered and rejected the idea of a simple controller (with appropriately high availability) combined with a pc for the more demanding stuff ? 2010-11-08 09:35 yes 2010-11-08 09:35 considered and rejected, it's already available 2010-11-08 09:36 (modules using USB to interface to a computer) 2010-11-08 09:36 that alone would not speak against it :) 2010-11-08 09:37 wouldn't have to be just a usb comm dongle. could be an independent controller with some sort of wireless 2010-11-08 09:37 the independent controller would be the executive that's available all the time and allows basic interaction. anything fancier would go to the pc. 2010-11-08 09:38 yes, but the goal is to create something new and open, to drive the prices down and provide possibilities to people like who would like to have a cool device for domotics 2010-11-08 09:38 but not limited to domotics 2010-11-08 09:39 but this would exactly drive prices down :-) one can assume the pc to exist already. so by simplifying the special-purpose box, you make the whole system cheaper 2010-11-08 09:39 (should be used for much more applications, let alone a tablet with real conectivity) 2010-11-08 09:39 btw, do you also envision a line of power line modules and such, or would it interface with some existing (presumably proprietary) standard/architecture 2010-11-08 09:41 yes, but you do not want to have to turn on your computer to lower the shutters or change the temperature of one room 2010-11-08 09:42 for this sort of operation, you'd probably want very low-cost local modules. 2010-11-08 09:42 it will be based on existing standards 2010-11-08 09:43 there's a few open ones, and some you can access just by buying the microcontroller to interface with 2010-11-08 09:43 (i should mention that i've been contemplating a domotics solution for my apartment for a while. that's basically the architecture i have in my mind.) 2010-11-08 09:43 and I personnally don't care for the few others, should they become obsolete 2010-11-08 09:43 most of the modules are quite expensive :-( well, X-10 is cheap, but then it's X-10 ... 2010-11-08 09:44 use of existing modules saves you from all the certification trouble, which is a clear advantage 2010-11-08 09:44 yes, modules are expensive, that's part of why we'd like to build this device 2010-11-08 09:45 ah, but even with this device, you still need the modules :) but yes, controllers are really expensive, too 2010-11-08 09:46 the modules will be integrated (that's the 3 to 5 microcontrollers), thus making the solution cheaper than each module sold separately 2010-11-08 09:47 hmm, perhaps we're talking about different kinds of modules. what i mean are the things that go into the sockets, lamps, appliances, etc. 2010-11-08 09:48 and much cheaper than existing "partial" solutions wich are only one or two busses in a tablet, at something like 2 ou 3000 euros 2010-11-08 09:48 ho 2010-11-08 09:48 yes 2010-11-08 09:48