2010-10-29 02:08 wolfspraul: what happened: /home of my workstation died. a bit too quickly to recover any data :-( now i'm restoring things ... from repositories, memory, ancient backups, ... 2010-10-29 02:09 oh 2010-10-29 02:10 not much I can do to help I guess 2010-10-29 02:11 wolfspraul: i'll have a few more days of fun... ;) 2010-10-29 02:12 yeah, sorry to hear that. 2010-10-29 02:12 I have two questions for you still :-) 2010-10-29 02:12 first is about the resistor on the jtag-serial board, Yanjun Luo did change it to a 250V rating now 2010-10-29 02:12 1M/250V 2010-10-29 02:13 wolfspraul: what threw me off was that - for some mysterious reason - the pc didn't mount root when a first looked at the problem. that's why i thought it was the other disk. otherwise, i may have had a bit more time to recover things while the failing disk still had some life in it. 2010-10-29 02:13 my problem is in digikey I cannot find 'voltage rating' as a parameter for resistors 2010-10-29 02:13 wolfspraul: (resistor) heh ;-) 2010-10-29 02:13 it has Power (Watts) 2010-10-29 02:13 wolfspraul: BOOM to the rescue ;-) 2010-10-29 02:13 is that the right value and do I need to do some math? 2010-10-29 02:13 well yes true, but then I would need to encode the fields correctly for boom 2010-10-29 02:14 will 1M/250V work? (as the value field) 2010-10-29 02:14 1206 in the footprint 2010-10-29 02:14 I could just try, but I am worried it will pick the wrong part. 2010-10-29 02:14 power is an indirect indicator. voltage and power both depend on the package size (and a bit on the type of resistor) 2010-10-29 02:15 1M/250V will work if you teach the .sub file how to handle it :) 2010-10-29 02:15 can I copy it from somewhere? 2010-10-29 02:15 there's a new tool that can help you with this ... lemme fetch eda-tools ... 2010-10-29 02:17 ah no, it's in the openmoko svn ... testsub 2010-10-29 02:17 where/ever/boom testsub file.sub R123 1M/250V 1206 ... 2010-10-29 02:18 I don't want to distract you from your recovery job, I'll look around myself no worries... 2010-10-29 02:18 will tell you what file.sub does with it 2010-10-29 02:18 ok I look 2010-10-29 02:18 second thing I had - we got our OUI! 2010-10-29 02:18 yipee ! it is a "nice' number ? 2010-10-29 02:19 he, you tell me 2010-10-29 02:19 10-E2-D5 2010-10-29 02:19 http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=File:IEEE_OUI_10-E2-D5_assignment.pdf&page=1 2010-10-29 02:19 and how much are those critters nowadays ? i once bought one for USD 1k. i think openmoko's was 2k. 2010-10-29 02:19 1650 USD 2010-10-29 02:20 this is for Qi Hardware now, so I plan a similar system with a wiki page and all Qi projects can use those numbers 2010-10-29 02:20 in fact that's what I wanted to discuss 2010-10-29 02:20 very moderate inflation then :) 2010-10-29 02:20 the IEEE really is keen on making sure that all numbers are used 2010-10-29 02:20 not very wasteful 'blocks' 2010-10-29 02:20 so how do we do that? 2010-10-29 02:21 should we just start with 00-00-01 to 00-00-06 for the 6 Milkymist One RC1 boards? 2010-10-29 02:21 yeah, at least they say that they're very rigid on this 2010-10-29 02:21 well I want to play by the book 2010-10-29 02:21 not sure how bad they really are 2010-10-29 02:21 sure but why waste... 2010-10-29 02:21 so we could have a wiki page 2010-10-29 02:21 and whenever people need some, even for small runs, they just increment 2010-10-29 02:21 that's one way 2010-10-29 02:22 or we do have 'blocks' 2010-10-29 02:22 but then first of all some blocks may stay very empty, and we need to 'fill' those blocks later, or a block may get full and another one is needed 2010-10-29 02:22 you could make small blocks 2010-10-29 02:22 I almost feel a sequential model is best, with the wiki it should be possible to administer it 2010-10-29 02:23 I don't expect thousands of runs, and even if there are hundreds after some years, fine there can be a table with some x hundred rows 2010-10-29 02:23 well, before I start I thought I discuss with you 2010-10-29 02:23 take your time... 2010-10-29 02:23 my vote is probably for a simple sequential model 2010-10-29 02:23 if you make 1000 devices in one go, you can just allocate 1000 sequential numbers :) 2010-10-29 02:23 all products mixed, just increment as many as you need for the run right in front of you 2010-10-29 02:23 ah yes, sure 2010-10-29 02:24 I would allocate the first 6 (in retrospect) for the first 6 Milkymist One devices 2010-10-29 02:24 the RC1 run 2010-10-29 02:24 and another 35 for the RC2 run 2010-10-29 02:24 if you need some for ben-wpan you just add to the table, even down to 1 if you like 2010-10-29 02:24 at least it's an official table and we can really make sure those numbers are 'officially' and globally unique 2010-10-29 02:24 sounds good to me, at least for now 2010-10-29 02:25 ok great 2010-10-29 02:26 there's a tiny privacy/security concern with having MACs that are traceable to eactly production dates, but that's probably nothing really worth worrying about 2010-10-29 02:26 hmm 2010-10-29 02:26 we discussed this subject (unique/serial number) in general before you joined 2010-10-29 02:27 oh, and WPAN uses some new IEEE MAC addresses with 64 bits. i haven't studied them yet, but they probably just added some 16 more bits. so no risk to run out of these anytime soon :) 2010-10-29 02:27 back then the consensus was that we are not against unique/serial numbers, because they can have many positive benefits 2010-10-29 02:27 but we have two requirements with each such number: 2010-10-29 02:27 1) easily/conveniently removable 2010-10-29 02:27 2) documented 2010-10-29 02:28 unique is a requirement anyway. what i meant was that you could cross-link it to some other data, e.g., build date, hardware revision, etc. 2010-10-29 02:28 yes 2010-10-29 02:28 removable is good, yes 2010-10-29 02:28 like I said 2010-10-29 02:28 that is possible, and there are many positive things that you can do with the cross-linking 2010-10-29 02:29 so we are not saying 'copyleft hardware = anonymous hardware' 2010-10-29 02:29 as in - never any unique/serial numbers 2010-10-29 02:29 no tin foil hat :) 2010-10-29 02:29 the consensus was: a) removable b) documented 2010-10-29 02:29 but with those 2 requirements, bring them on, no problem 2010-10-29 02:29 sounds good to me 2010-10-29 02:29 maybe I mention this policy/idea at the top of the page 2010-10-29 02:30 the IEEE doesn't like 'MAC-48', they want to say 'EUI-48' 2010-10-29 02:30 I will just make multiple tables then, if ben-wpan only needs EUI-64 2010-10-29 02:31 if it's indeed EUI-64 only, you can go into a range 'outside' of the EUI-48 range, thereby not using up any EUI-48 numbers 2010-10-29 02:31 up to you 2010-10-29 02:31 let's just start the wiki page, to track/coordinate who is using what 2010-10-29 02:33 (eui-48/64) hmm, i wonder if they form completely separate namespaces. good question ... 2010-10-29 02:33 well we can see later 2010-10-29 02:33 if someone needs a EUI-64 number only, it should be chosen outside of the EUI-48 range, to conserve those numbers 2010-10-29 02:33 if you need a EUI-64 number that can 'fallback' to EUI-48, then of course you just take real EUI-48 numbers and encode them as EUI-64 2010-10-29 02:34 that's a requirement of the product, the wiki page is just to track who took what 2010-10-29 02:34 seems that they defined it the other way around: there's a 0xffff codepoint in eui-64 that allows you to encapsulate eui-48 :) 2010-10-29 02:34 yes 2010-10-29 02:35 so like I said, whoever needs/wants a EUI-64 needs to know whether there is any reason to take a 0xFFFF encodede EUI-48, or one outside of that 2010-10-29 02:35 I will start 2 tables then, to track EUI-48/MAC-48 and (real) EUI-64 assignments 2010-10-29 02:36 with 'real' I mean non-0xFFFF EUI-64 2010-10-29 02:36 those can show up in the EUI-48 table 2010-10-29 02:37 alright. maybe reserve some small range for "local use experiments". e.g., 00-00-xx[-xx-xx] or such 2010-10-29 02:39 ah, interesting. EUI-48 != MAC-48 2010-10-29 02:40 http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/tutorials/EUI64.html 2010-10-29 02:42 wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address) is slightly too dismissive about that difference. after all, it was IEEE worth one extra codepoint (0xfffe) to make this distinction 2010-10-29 02:44 ah, but they mention the encapsulation as well 2010-10-29 02:44 the encapsulation in EUI-64 is different? 2010-10-29 02:45 I was just thinking about making just one table for both MAC-48 and EUI-48 2010-10-29 02:45 good. now i know that thingy too. i had seen it before and couldn't quite make sense of it back then (lacking context) 2010-10-29 02:45 if the EUI-48 is in fact another namespace then I make the table only for MAC-48 :-) 2010-10-29 02:45 for Milkymist One, we need MAC-48 numbers, no? 2010-10-29 02:46 it seems that the EUI-48 and MAC-48 aren't quite different but not quite the same either :) 2010-10-29 02:46 for MM1, tht would be ethernet ? that should be MAC-48 2010-10-29 02:47 the wikipedia article says that MAC-48 and EUI-48 are from the same address pool 2010-10-29 02:48 the distinction looks like a case of a bit of overengineering 2010-10-29 02:48 ok I start with a MAC-48 only table, assign 6 + 35 for Milkymist One RC1 and RC2 2010-10-29 02:49 after that, if ben-wpan comes along and needs something, I'm sure you/we have figured out what the best number is 2010-10-29 02:50 maybe it's a case of corporate/authority envy, there are so many articles about what a MAC-48 is, but they were not written by the IEEE 2010-10-29 02:50 so they had to do something about that, and said "bah", it's EUI-48 now :-) 2010-10-29 02:50 and _WE_ will say what that is :-) 2010-10-29 02:50 trademark it too, for good measure :) 2010-10-29 02:52 I am wondering whether we should also assign proper MAC addresses to NanoNotes, for USB-ethernet networking? 2010-10-29 02:52 it wasn't needed for now at least, well we can do it when someone understands the need and implements it too 2010-10-29 02:53 dunno what the implications are. as far as i recall, usb-ether by default just borrows from some company's MAC address space. 2010-10-29 02:54 why does Openmoko have one then? 2010-10-29 02:56 you can distinguish devices that way. if you have more than one, things seem to get funny with certain host operating systems. mac and such. 2010-10-29 02:57 were the Openmoko numbers ever used? I never heard about it... 2010-10-29 02:58 i think they were. at least qi (the boot loader) passed them to the kernel. not sure about u-boot. 2010-10-29 03:00 but about the only context where i remember having heard about it mattering was with macs. 2010-10-29 03:08 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IEEE_OUI_assignments 2010-10-29 03:09 what do you think? good start? 2010-10-29 03:09 looks good. maybe link to the IEEE document, considering that you've already uploaded it ? 2010-10-29 03:10 the assignment letter 2010-10-29 03:10 sure 2010-10-29 03:10 I was trying to dig up the USB letter, but couldn't find it anymore. Too bad. 2010-10-29 03:13 qi-hw inc, san francisco. so that's why people sometimes refer to qi-hw as a US company :) 2010-10-29 03:15 yes the inc still exists 2010-10-29 03:15 it's all legit :-) 2010-10-29 03:16 maybe one day we can reactivate it again, I don't know, it's not my focus since mainly I believe in the gpl etc. to protect our works 2010-10-29 03:17 so the Qi Hardware Inc. is a very nice shell/umbrella for all community 'transactions' as you say... 2010-10-29 03:25 oh so that is where all tax evading is done? :P 2010-10-29 03:33 wpwrak: I added a note about our idea that serial and unique numbers should be documented and removable... 2010-10-29 03:34 without extending this to an epic text/philosophy now, I think it's clear for now and we can write a longer text later 2010-10-29 03:51 wpwrak: he OK. boom testsub doesn't help me with my 1M/250V resistor 2010-10-29 03:51 because my problem is not to see how the string is parsed or not, but to understand what kind of parsing result I should expect 2010-10-29 03:52 there seems to be no voltage rating in resistors, only power (watts) 2010-10-29 03:53 I google a bit :-) 2010-10-29 03:56 aha http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_7.html 2010-10-29 03:56 P = (V*V)/R 2010-10-29 04:11 wpwrak: hmm. when I do this calculation my result is P = 250*250/1000000 = 0.0625 2010-10-29 04:12 but when I look up 1M 1206 resistors, there is not one below 0.125, most are 0.25W, some higher 2010-10-29 04:13 so maybe that's why Yanjun Luo first said the "/250V" rating would not be needed, in his experience (he said in 10+ years and lots of products he never needed it) 2010-10-29 04:13 because a 1M 1206 resistor will implicitly be able to hold up to 250V and higher anyway? 2010-10-29 04:13 well, something may be wrong with my math of course. Let me know. 2010-10-29 04:14 NN kernel is not stable 2010-10-29 04:15 getting lot many problems while using it 2010-10-29 05:19 nitin_gupta: which kind of problems? 2010-10-29 06:48 hi, is this a channel where i can get help with making a pcie card for my computer? 2010-10-29 07:13 wolfspraul: resistors should have a V=... field in the characteristics 2010-10-29 07:14 wolfspraul: you can't calculate P and V from each other. P depends on how quickly the heat can get out of the package. the smaller, the slower. V depends on how far the terminals are from each other, arcing and such. 2010-10-29 07:15 wolfspraul: 1206 is probably big enough ... lemme check ... 2010-10-29 07:17 hmm, tricky. panasonic and stackpole only go up to 200 V. 2010-10-29 07:17 but that's continuous voltage, not peak. i didn't record peak. maybe i should ... 2010-10-29 07:19 hmm 2010-10-29 07:19 the higher-voltage resistors have their voltage encoded separately, so just the package doesn't tell the value. you could grep the .chr files for it, though 2010-10-29 07:19 Yanjun Luo said this is totally unnecessary anyway :-) 2010-10-29 07:19 ;-)) 2010-10-29 07:20 so what changed his mind to put a voltage there in the first place ? 2010-10-29 07:22 your comment in the TODO file 2010-10-29 07:22 the whole circuit is admittedly a little mysterious to me. what exactly is supposed to happen when there's a discharge into the shield ? 2010-10-29 07:23 after I repeatedly pointed your comment out to him he basically said "if you want to change it go ahead, I don't care. It's not necessary anyway" :-) 2010-10-29 07:23 the .chr files indeed show a V= value for the resistors 2010-10-29 07:23 why is my math so wrong? 2010-10-29 07:23 ah :) well, i was just commenting on the inconsistency. if it matters for the cap, it ought to matter for the R. unless you actually expect to arc over the R, which may or may not be the case. 2010-10-29 07:24 maybe I just change it back, and done 2010-10-29 07:24 because the math is about a different physical phenomenon 2010-10-29 07:24 we have already made fully working boards, so this whole thing seems like a time-sink operation 2010-10-29 07:25 I just leave the 1206 footprint, and remove the /250V indicator 2010-10-29 07:25 i would like to understand how this circuit is supposed to behave. as opposed to, say, just connecting shield to the ground plane. 2010-10-29 07:25 let it match to the cheapest 1206 1M R resistor 2010-10-29 07:25 ;-) 2010-10-29 07:25 it would have been such a nice way to exercise your .sub skills ;-) 2010-10-29 07:26 I will get to it, but the motivation must come from more valuable targets... (xue) 2010-10-29 07:26 it's not *that* difficult :) 2010-10-29 07:26 not from a jtag-serial board that we already know works, even with a 0402 resistor that is most likely even weaker 2010-10-29 07:27 well, it's ESD protection. did you ESD-test the board ? 2010-10-29 07:27 it's not difficult to parse and match fields, but I don't trust the meaning of the fields I am matching 2010-10-29 07:27 and as long as that's the case I hesitate to put some automatic matching in place that I will never question again in the future 2010-10-29 07:27 you are not even sure about 'continuous' or 'peak' etc. 2010-10-29 07:28 in digikey there is no 'voltage' at all, only power (watts) 2010-10-29 07:28 all the values in the .chr at the moment are continuous. 2010-10-29 07:28 don't know what that means. maybe digikey is missing a field, maybe I don't understand what I'm dealing with :-) 2010-10-29 07:28 like I said, I will just leave 1206, because I think he changed the layout as well, and remove the /250V 2010-10-29 07:28 done :-) 2010-10-29 07:28 digi-key don't put everything into their tables. i think you also don't have temperature coefficients. 2010-10-29 07:28 they are there 2010-10-29 07:29 the list is quite long for resistors, but no 'voltage' 2010-10-29 07:29 ah, okay 2010-10-29 07:29 suspicious to me, given my large degree of cluelessness around this 2010-10-29 07:29 anyway, if you look at the vendor data sheets, voltages are always there. 2010-10-29 07:29 maybe digi-key are afraid people will get confused and think they can just pick a sufficient voltage without looking at power. 2010-10-29 07:30 most of the time, power is what limits you, not voltage. 2010-10-29 07:30 if digikey doesn't even have it in their tables, for something as common as a 'resistor', then there must be more to it 2010-10-29 07:30 yeah, something like that :-) 2010-10-29 07:30 so I am not the right person to do the matching, let alone automatic matching 2010-10-29 07:30 well, you don't have to understand the deeper meaning to do the matching. neither does BOOM itself :) 2010-10-29 07:33 in all 1392 different 1206 resistors I have in my boom .chr, there is not one with V != 200V 2010-10-29 07:33 I will keep my fingers off the matching until I know what I'm doing, or until I can copy/paste from a known/proven/verified design. 2010-10-29 07:34 but i;m still curious why you need that circuit at all. in most designs i've seen, shield is just connected to ground. maybe incorrectly so. however, in some cases, you don't even have a choice. e.g., all common coax cables don't have a separate shield, so signal ground is protective ground. and it's certainly easy enough to touch the shield. 2010-10-29 07:34 footprint size is a very good indicator for voltage (also for power) 2010-10-29 07:35 sure, that's why I will leave the change from 0402 to 1206 that Yanjun made 2010-10-29 07:35 so it's less about "making it work" but more about documenting it properly. if you specify the voltage, then it's clear what you're after. 2010-10-29 07:35 but I remove the /250V indicator which creates this whole matching uncertainty, for unknown return value 2010-10-29 07:36 your logic doesn't quite add up, but i agree that the result will work :) 2010-10-29 07:37 hmm, i shall refer to my holy book on circuit design for an answer to that riddle ... 2010-10-29 07:39 [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed R16 /250V indicator until we are more clear http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/42f1909 2010-10-29 07:50 hmmm, the holy book agrees with not connecting directly in the case of non-RF, but suggests a choke or resistor instead of a capacitor. kinda the opposite. let's see if there's more in the in-depth chapters ... 2010-10-29 08:36 wolfspraul: my holy book is more concerned with ground loops than with ESD effects on the shield. if making a connection at all, it suggests a bead. USB standard just mumbles something about consistency with accepted practices and regulatory standards, without offering any specific suggestions. 2010-10-29 08:41 wolfspraul: intel suggest to simply tie the shell to the ground plane. http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/apps/msp/intrface/usb/emitest.pdf 2010-10-29 08:42 I have no opinion on any of this :-) 2010-10-29 08:43 also I think there is no issue, I think we are just going in circles 2010-10-29 08:43 all fine 2010-10-29 08:43 board works, designer is happy 2010-10-29 08:43 forget the 250V thing 2010-10-29 08:43 wolfspraul:  so i do wonder where this RC circuit comes from. i've seen that the Ben has the same sort of setup. 2010-10-29 08:45 Yanjun is super busy, I will hold my limited fire until I have something really pressing I need from him 2010-10-29 08:46 he thinks this is good, we have made working boards - done 2010-10-29 08:46 did he also design the USB connection of the Ben ? 2010-10-29 08:46 no 2010-10-29 09:01 so there's a meme in the EE community, or at least in our corner of it. wonder where it comes from ... at least intel's docs have nothing that suggests this sort of setup 2010-10-29 09:08 the ben's is even a bit worse, because it has no bleed resistor. so i think that you could build up some high voltage differential between shield and the rest of the circuit. e.g., when the other end of the cable isn't connected to anything or if the shield is broken 2010-10-29 10:59 hi, i've just copied nupdf to nanonote and when i tried to open the pdf file, it says cannot find config file, quitting... any suggestion? thanks 2010-10-29 11:03 sujan: Let me think. I know I had that problem too at first.... 2010-10-29 11:04 ok thanks 2010-10-29 11:04 following the readme.. i just copied over but there is that issue 2010-10-29 11:05 Try using cd to get into the folder with nupdf in it, then select the PDF you want to read with an absolute path. 2010-10-29 11:05 so, in my case, 2010-10-29 11:06 cd /usr/share/nupdf 2010-10-29 11:06 ./nupdf /data/doc/thing_i_want_to_read.pdf 2010-10-29 11:08 sujan: any luck? 2010-10-29 11:08 i did that before and screen went blank 2010-10-29 11:09 haven't tried again 2010-10-29 11:11 Hm. How long did it stay blank? 2010-10-29 11:11 few minutes 2010-10-29 11:11 and i restarted 2010-10-29 12:18 hola a todos!! 2010-10-29 12:21 Entera de todos en este chat!! 2010-10-29 12:21 Entre dos Aguas 2010-10-29 12:23 untranslatable 2010-10-29 12:24 It's a Paco de Lucia song 2010-10-29 12:26 Hola, heberth. Hablo solo ingles pero estoy feliz esta aqui. 2010-10-29 12:27 qbject:  i don't spoke ingles 2010-10-29 12:27 jejeje 2010-10-29 12:30 heberth: hehe. Seremos amigos silencios 2010-10-29 12:31 kristianpaul:  sera nuestro traductor 2010-10-29 12:31 qbject: ^ 2010-10-29 14:07 Anybody like William Gibson? 2010-10-29 15:29 SiENcE: I'm confused. Is nLove for BNN up to the same status as the Caanoo version? 2010-10-29 15:32 qbject, please ask bartbes, i think he is doing the nlove version for bnn 2010-10-29 15:33 i also compiled a dingux one...so you might try this? 2010-10-29 15:33 Gotcha. THanks! 2010-10-29 15:33 but i dont know if dingux apps work on bnn 2010-10-29 15:34 SiENcE: Some do, and I've stolen some Dingux libs to make even more run. 2010-10-29 15:35 qbject: no, I haven't updated the makefile 2010-10-29 15:38 bartbes: Well I appreciate the time you and SiENcE have spent. Where would you announce if you did do that? 2010-10-29 15:41 i have an strange issue with my toolchain. sometimes make doesn't find a code file. next i start make it finds the file. mh 2010-10-29 15:56 where did wolfgang get the money for the ben nanonote production runs? 2010-10-29 15:57 kanzure: I'm curious about that, too. 2010-10-29 15:58 He's usually in here on the opposite side of the clock. Might just ask him directly. 2010-10-29 15:59 Maybe wpwrak knows. 2010-10-29 15:59 anyone here have tested the wikireader plugin? 2010-10-29 16:22 qbject: will do. 2010-10-29 17:01 qbject: added it to my todo 2010-10-29 17:03 bartbes: eeeexcellent. thanks very much. 2010-10-29 17:08 kanzure: (money) as far as i know, personal savings 2010-10-29 17:10 hm 2010-10-29 17:10 wpwrak: I assumed that he had prior electronics-manufacturing experience, given the smoothness that the Ben release has had, hardware-wise. Is that correct? 2010-10-29 17:10 i was thinking ben nanonote might have been leftover stuff from a previous gig? 2010-10-29 17:11 qbject: oh yes. remember openmoko ? that's where he was before qihw. 2010-10-29 17:13 kanzure: nope, it's based on a dictionary design that was commercialized by some chinese (?) company. wolfgang licensed it, made some changes, and had the company/companies that had made the dictionary produce it. 2010-10-29 17:13 kanzure: that way, the usually quite high cost of just getting started (case design, prototypes, etc.) was saved. 2010-10-29 17:14 how did he convince them to use a copyleft license? 2010-10-29 17:14 also, please keep prepending kanzure: plz (i might miss messages otherwise) 2010-10-29 17:16 wpwrak: you were on openmoko too, right? 2010-10-29 17:16 qbject: yup 2010-10-29 17:17 kanzure: not everything of the ben is under an open license. e.g., we don't have the cad files. for the electronics, dunno. i also don't know how much of that was redone. 2010-10-29 17:17 ah i see 2010-10-29 17:17 wpwrak: but it seems like he does have permission to reverse-engineer and modify. 2010-10-29 17:18 qbject: yup. besides, i don't think people in china care about such things a lot :) 2010-10-29 17:20 wpwrak: Oh, that's a good point. I forget about Loongson. Nice that there is a society so confident of their own future success who still believe, essentially, in sharing. 2010-10-29 17:23 qbject: maybe they just haven't had sufficient excess wealth for long enough to grow a large number of parasitic lawyers and lobbyists :) 2010-10-29 17:24 wpwrak: makes me wish I knew more about their pre-revolutionary society. 2010-10-29 17:25 ;-) 2010-10-29 17:41 (catching up with the irc backlog from the last days ...) 2010-10-29 17:41 kristianpaul: for presentations, why not use latex ? 2010-10-29 17:54 (sharism in spanish) why not some spanglish ? "sharismo" ;) 2010-10-29 18:10 wpwrak: Well _I_ like it. 2010-10-29 18:12 wpwrak: reminds me of "charisma" 2010-10-29 18:20 wpwrak: and "fortissimo" 2010-10-29 18:20 charisma is a good association 2010-10-29 18:21 I agree. 2010-10-29 18:22 (To be honest, "sharism" always seemed a bit...truncated to me.) 2010-10-29 22:40 wpwrak: latex right is nice i need learn it or get a friendly editor... 2010-10-29 23:00 kristianpaul: for standar texts like articles, papers, letters you just need to edit templates ;) 2010-10-29 23:02 kristianpaul: if you did some html doc before it is something similar : if you knoe

tit

tit2

then in latex you can have something like \section{tit} \subsection{tit2} 2010-10-29 23:03 if you knoe=if you know 2010-10-29 23:03 rafa: html yes i know 2010-10-29 23:03 interesting 2010-10-29 23:03 (need get some templates) 2010-10-29 23:04 kristianpaul: check some examples.. I used pdflatex mydoc.tex to convert from latex to pdf directly 2010-10-29 23:04 kristianpaul: what do you need to write? 2010-10-29 23:04 rafa: as wpwrak pointed, presentation slides 2010-10-29 23:05 convert=pdf output from tex 2010-10-29 23:05 kristianpaul: ah.. there are a lot of examples or templates for that :) 2010-10-29 23:06 looking now 2010-10-29 23:07 kristianpaul: if you want I can give you an example :) 2010-10-29 23:08 rafa: well, :) yes 2010-10-29 23:08 hahah i saw this before http://www.pctex.com/kb/64.html 2010-10-29 23:08 kristianpaul: do you have pdflatex installed? 2010-10-29 23:09 kristianpaul: ah.. nice you found one 2010-10-29 23:10 (trying to find the pdflates in debian) 2010-10-29 23:10 pdflatex* 2010-10-29 23:11 kristianpaul: if you have Debian you will find pdflatex installing the texlive-latex-base package 2010-10-29 23:12 ah is already installed :) 2010-10-29 23:19 kristianpaul: already installed: faster than to install :) 2010-10-29 23:20 rafa: yes 2010-10-29 23:32 off bed tommorrow going to the lab 2010-10-29 23:32 bye