2010-10-14 00:30 <wpwrak> hmm .. i google for "qi-hardware irc log" and get this: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IRC_Logs
2010-10-14 00:30 <wpwrak> correct but oh so misleading ...
2010-10-14 10:12 <qi-bot> [commit] Bas Wijnen: use proper place for 2 GB ecc http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/7e8cc1d
2010-10-14 13:25 <qwebirc51684> hello?
2010-10-14 13:27 <qwebirc51684> is anyone here?
2010-10-14 13:30 <qwebirc51684> hello?
2010-10-14 13:32 <qbject> I am.
2010-10-14 13:33 <qbject> qwebirc51684: What's up?
2010-10-14 13:34 <qwebirc51684> I just recieved my nanonote yesterday
2010-10-14 13:35 <qwebirc51684> trying to explore some possibilities
2010-10-14 13:36 <qbject> There are many! :) Anything specific?
2010-10-14 13:41 <qwebirc51684> one minor one is changing keymap to colemak
2010-10-14 13:41 <qwebirc51684> do you have one?
2010-10-14 13:48 <qwebirc51684> Hello Kris, this is Jane from Jlime boards
2010-10-14 13:48 <qwebirc51684> I got my nanonote yesterday
2010-10-14 13:59 <qbject> I have a nanonote but I haven't tried to change the keymap, I'm afraid.
2010-10-14 14:01 <qwebirc51684> does anyone know if the outer layer is the screen or is it under a protector?
2010-10-14 14:02 <qbject> I believe there are some assembly images on qi-hw.com which show the screen as separate from the glass in front of it.
2010-10-14 14:03 <qbject> Here we go: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Cleaning_the_PC_Sheet.jpg
2010-10-14 14:15 <wpwrak> wonders if this picture shows cleaning or glueing :)
2010-10-14 14:20 <qwebirc51684> nice picture
2010-10-14 14:21 <qwebirc51684> is it really glass?
2010-10-14 14:23 <qwebirc51684> Ok, have to go now
2010-10-14 14:28 <wpwrak> the sheet is plastic
2010-10-14 14:29 <wpwrak> (cleaning) same tool as for cleaning the screen. i'll eat my words then :)
2010-10-14 14:47 <qbject> wpwrak: in another forum, someone was asking if there are any barriers to user-disassembly.
2010-10-14 14:48 <qbject> I haven't torn into mine yet, as I would miss it if I broke it, but I was curious, too.
2010-10-14 14:48 <qbject> I assume the screen sheet is mounted with adhesive, but is there anything else which can't be taken apart and reassembled?
2010-10-14 14:49 <zear> hey there qbject, have you tried nethack-newt yet? ;)
2010-10-14 14:50 <qbject> Nope. Was busier last night than I'd expected. And we're having a pub night for a departing coworker tonight, so I might not get to it until tomorrow.
2010-10-14 14:50 <zear> ;P
2010-10-14 14:50 <qbject> But I'll make sure it's installed today so I can at least try it on the train in the morning.
2010-10-14 14:56 <qbject> I don't know how, but I think I broke tar.
2010-10-14 14:56 <qbject> No matter how small a file is, tar -x just sits there and does nothing.
2010-10-14 14:56 <zear> well.. i don't know if dingux toolchain has a libtar, but maybe you simply overwritten it with the dingux one?
2010-10-14 14:57 <qbject> I'll check, but I doubt it. I moved specific libs when programs missed them. I didn't replace anything that was already there.
2010-10-14 14:58 <zear> i see, then it shouldn't be the case
2010-10-14 14:58 <qbject> Mm.
2010-10-14 14:58 <qbject> shrugs
2010-10-14 14:59 <wpwrak> qbject: (disassembly) yes, several parts:
2010-10-14 14:59 <wpwrak> qbject: the hinge
2010-10-14 15:00 <wpwrak> qbject: the LCM's pcb also looks dangerous to separate from the lcm (i.e., i haven't tried it)
2010-10-14 15:01 <wpwrak> qbject: the white metal part on the top cover will probably bend when removed (and be nearly impossible to straighten afterwards)
2010-10-14 15:01 <qbject> wpwrak: It's bent already without attempting removal. :P
2010-10-14 15:02 <wpwrak> qbject: perhaps the little metal grill on top of the speaker as well
2010-10-14 15:03 <wpwrak> qbject: not sure about the top cover per se. i think it's glued too.
2010-10-14 15:03 <qbject> Are there any retaining snaps/clips between the glossy and matte plastic?
2010-10-14 15:04 <wpwrak> qbject: i thnk they're only between the bottom shell and the frame that goes on and around the keyboard
2010-10-14 15:04 <wpwrak> qbject: as far as i recall, nothing on top
2010-10-14 15:04 <qbject> Hm.
2010-10-14 15:05 <qbject> I'll probably have to get a second and sacrifice one.
2010-10-14 15:05 <wpwrak> but then you have the hinges. i think they're not removable without causing damage
2010-10-14 15:05 <wpwrak> wolfgang will like that :)
2010-10-14 15:06 <qbject> The stuff you're doing with 3D scans is very (VERY) cool, but as a machinist I'd really love to put together a case design which doesn't require injection molding.
2010-10-14 15:10 <wpwrak> i'd love to have that, too :-) after all, my 3D scanner can also mill, if given the chance :)
2010-10-14 15:11 <qbject> I was curious about that. What variety of mill is it?
2010-10-14 15:11 <wpwrak> the 3D scans are more thought as a reference. even if someone wanted to make a close replica, there are a few things you probably would want to avoid. i.e., anything that snaps
2010-10-14 15:11 <wpwrak> it's a roland "Modela" MDX-15. small desktop mill
2010-10-14 15:11 <qbject> Gotcha. I've heard of those.
2010-10-14 15:12 <qbject> I had a MaxNC for a bit, but couldn't do as much as I'd have liked after learning on a big Matsuura. =D
2010-10-14 15:12 <wpwrak> this one: http://www.rolanddga.com/products/scanners/mdx15/
2010-10-14 15:13 <wpwrak> maxnc already looks quite professional
2010-10-14 15:14 <qbject> Somewhat, but it's all aluminum. I'd rather have one of Sherline's CNC conversions if I'm going to have a dovetail mill.
2010-10-14 15:15 <qbject> And compared with this: http://www.fox-prints.com/images/matsuura_small.jpg
2010-10-14 15:15 <wpwrak> okay, that's another kind of beast :)
2010-10-14 15:16 <wpwrak> my roland can barely mill aluminium. if i go shallow and slow, it works. but takes forever.
2010-10-14 15:16 <qbject> Have you tried brass? It's a ton more forgiving.
2010-10-14 15:16 <wpwrak> what's nice is that it's quiet enough that, when in a closed box, it can run 24/7 without keeping the neighbours awake :)
2010-10-14 15:17 <wpwrak> no, haven't tried brass yes. i would have thought it would be even harder ?
2010-10-14 15:17 <wpwrak> s/yes/yet/
2010-10-14 15:17 <qbject> The matsuura was a great experience. Held almost .01mm all day on the Z axis after it had warmed up.
2010-10-14 15:17 <wpwrak> (0.01 mm) sigh :)
2010-10-14 15:18 <qbject> It is harder and heavier, but it also cuts cleaner and doesn't build up in the flutes. You can use carbide endmills and wind them up to about 4x the spindle speed of HSS.
2010-10-14 15:19 <qbject> I've had endmills that were about to snap off in aluminum keep cutting nicely in brass for several parts.
2010-10-14 15:20 <qbject> Made the brass parts of this after the aluminum ones: http://kahrl.net/portfolio/wand.jpg
2010-10-14 15:20 <qbject> (That was on the MaxNC, which did NOT like the aluminum.)
2010-10-14 15:21 <wpwrak> the mdx-15 has a constant 6500 rpm. i wonder where there's a good place to get inexpensive endmills. pmtnow are nice but a bit pricy.
2010-10-14 15:22 <wpwrak> (brass) looks pretty clean
2010-10-14 15:23 <wpwrak> how does brass behave without lubrication ?
2010-10-14 15:23 <qbject> Yep. We call that "360" brass in the US. Screw machine grade. Leaded, Freecutting. There is nothing more fun to machine.
2010-10-14 15:25 <qbject> That leaded stuff is basically self-lubricating and we only used coolant for deep-hole drilling. The rest of the time we just put the compressed air to it.
2010-10-14 15:25 <wpwrak> nice :) i'll have to ask my metal shop about this.
2010-10-14 15:26 <wpwrak> alas, i don't have any cooling infrastructure. would probably be too noisy anyway. (apartment building)
2010-10-14 15:26 <wpwrak> but then, i guess just going slow will do the trick, too
2010-10-14 15:27 <qbject> Actually, I would suggest keeping a small depth-of-cut and going faster. That'll help avoid chatter, which is the noisy part.
2010-10-14 15:28 <wpwrak> ah, i see.
2010-10-14 15:29 <wpwrak> my reaction to problems was always shallower and slower. perhaps i just made them worse then.
2010-10-14 15:29 <wpwrak> how's burr with the brass ?
2010-10-14 15:30 <qbject> Present, but thin, work-hardened, and ready to break off.
2010-10-14 15:31 <qbject> A small fine mill file is usually enough to remove it.
2010-10-14 15:31 <qbject> Or one of those funny hook-shaped deburring tools.
2010-10-14 15:33 <wpwrak> okay, not too bad then. for flat things (pcbs and the like), i just use a chisel.
2010-10-14 15:33 <wpwrak> lately, my mill gets to do little but pcbs and scanning :)
2010-10-14 15:34 <qbject> I know what you mean about trying to go shallower/slower. And shallower is important with a low-powered tool. But chatter is best handled by feeding faster. You want each tooth taking a slightly bigger bite because the chatter is being caused by the end mill vibrating in the cut.
2010-10-14 15:35 <wpwrak> okay. i'll try that. now i really need to get new endmills :)
2010-10-14 15:35 <qbject> It's true.
2010-10-14 15:37 <qbject> In the US a lot of small operators find that Enco has competitive prices for small quantities. http://www.use-enco.com
2010-10-14 15:37 <qbject> But you're in South America, right?
2010-10-14 15:39 <wpwrak> yup, in argentina
2010-10-14 15:39 <wpwrak> so i need one that ships internationally
2010-10-14 15:40 <wpwrak> enco apparently do. good. let's compare prices ...
2010-10-14 15:41 <qbject> You might want to shoot an email to this guy: http://www.calocustomknives.com/docs/contact.htm
2010-10-14 15:43 <qbject> Before I started thinking about custom portable computers, I wanted to be a custom cutler. Met a lot of extremely helpful guys on BladeForums.com, including him.
2010-10-14 15:44 <qbject> Dunno if he posts there much any more, but it's a possible lead.
2010-10-14 15:45 <wpwrak> (ruben calco) he's got a nice workshop :)
2010-10-14 15:47 <qbject> Knifemakers are an interesting bunch. In the US they tend to be quite conservative, quite capitalist, but that group is also extremely suspicious of trade secrets. They figure that if you won't tell people how you did it, you probably don't actually know that much.
2010-10-14 15:48 <wpwrak> hehe ;-)
2010-10-14 15:49 <wpwrak> btw, nice laptop bag on your site
2010-10-14 15:49 <qbject> Thanks! I take it everywhere.
2010-10-14 15:59 <qbject> zear: Hrm. Tried installing nethack-newt and got :Packages ... found, but incompatible with the architectures configured.
2010-10-14 16:07 <methril_> someone read this? http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
2010-10-14 16:12 <wpwrak> (enco) nice prices indeed. at least for standard sizes. for small stuff, they either don't have it or it's more expensive than at pmtnow :-(
2010-10-14 16:22 <wpwrak> hmm, how does a larger number of flutes change the mill's behaviour ? i.e., it it safe to go from 2 to 4 ? (so far, i've always used 2, but i see that for one of the sizes i want, 4 seems to be more common)
2010-10-14 16:26 <qbject> Consider what I said earlier about the depth-of-cut per tooth and chatter. Twice as many teeth/flutes means that you can (or must) feed twice as fast at the same spindle speed.
2010-10-14 16:29 <qbject> However, doing so does increase the load on the mill's servo or steppers
2010-10-14 16:30 <wpwrak> hmm, i was afraid of that conclusion
2010-10-14 16:30 <wpwrak> also, my spindle motor is quite weak somethine like 10 W if i recall correctly
2010-10-14 16:31 <qbject> My personal opinion is the 2 flutes are great for prototypes and 1-offs. Adding flutes is more beneficial when you start getting into production efficiency.
2010-10-14 16:36 <qbject> It's good to prove that the program won't break cutters before you switch to more-expensive multi-flute endmills
2010-10-14 16:37 <wpwrak> ironically, the 4-flute is cheaper than the 2-flute in this case
2010-10-14 16:37 <qbject> Huh. Interesting.
2010-10-14 16:40 <wpwrak> standard end mill, 1/32" size, 1/8" shank, 3/32" length (to have some tolerance when cutting through standard pcbs)
2010-10-14 16:41 <wpwrak> hmm, they call the #325-2462 a "stub" yet the length is supposed to be 3/32". how does that compute ?
2010-10-14 16:45 <qbject> A depth-of-cut 3x the diameter still isn't that much...
2010-10-14 16:55 <wpwrak> isn't the relation quadratic ? pressure = x*diameter^2  (for constant depth/diameter ratio, same feed rate, etc.)
2010-10-14 16:56 <wpwrak> while break-off-pressure may only increase linearly. actually, i'm not sure about this.
2010-10-14 17:02 <qbject> Hm. Now you're getting into things I've forgotten.
2010-10-14 17:13 <qbject> wpwrak: Some day we'll run EMC with a NanoNote and use it to make cases for other NanoNotes!
2010-10-14 17:13 <wpwrak> now there's an idea ! :)
2010-10-14 17:14 <wpwrak> are you planning to design a NN case ?
2010-10-14 17:15 <qbject> Incremetally, yes.
2010-10-14 17:15 <qbject> I'd like to start by just replacing the glossy bits with canvas garolite
2010-10-14 17:17 <qbject> And go from there.
2010-10-14 17:18 <qbject> It's too bad there aren't more AVT2s.
2010-10-14 17:20 <wpwrak> garolite ... hmm, isn't it quite brittle ?
2010-10-14 17:21 <qbject> That depends. They use the canvas and linen composites for things like pulleys on sailboat masts.
2010-10-14 17:21 <wpwrak> ah, canvas reinforced ... "good mechanical and impact strength"
2010-10-14 17:21 <qbject> Bingo.
2010-10-14 17:22 <qbject> And a design proved out in CE or LE garolite can then be transferred directly to Grade 10/FR4, which is nearly bulletproof, or Grade 30, which actually IS bulletproof.
2010-10-14 17:23 <wpwrak> taking your ben to bad neighbourhoods ? ;-)
2010-10-14 17:23 <qbject> My pocket seems to be a bad neighborhood.
2010-10-14 17:23 <qbject> Take from that what you will. :P
2010-10-14 17:24 <wpwrak> so your ben is already in need of a new case ? :)
2010-10-14 17:25 <qbject> Like I said, the metal trim is already bent.
2010-10-14 17:25 <qbject> There's some flex that I don't care for when it's closed.
2010-10-14 17:25 <qbject> Etc.
2010-10-14 17:25 <qbject> My plan is:
2010-10-14 17:26 <qbject> 1. augment the existing case
2010-10-14 17:26 <qbject> 2. use lessons learned from that to design a new case with a massive hinge
2010-10-14 17:27 <qbject> 3. design a new case with full-sized keyboard.
2010-10-14 17:27 <wpwrak> ah, radical changes
2010-10-14 17:28 <kristianpaul> hello, (changes) radical indeed
2010-10-14 17:28 <qbject> I know it's not free, but I was thinking that QTouch applied to a nice heavy piece of G-10/FR4 would make a nice, tough, easily replicated keyboard.
2010-10-14 17:28 <urandom__> full-sized keyboard?
2010-10-14 17:29 <kristianpaul> lets wait touch screen get cheaper
2010-10-14 17:29 <wpwrak> i'm thinking of making a replacement keyboard layout. same size, though
2010-10-14 17:29 <kristianpaul> full screen no more :)
2010-10-14 17:29 <kristianpaul> easy case too
2010-10-14 17:29 <urandom__> nah is dont want any touch screen for nanonote
2010-10-14 17:30 <wpwrak> like this: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/layout.pdf
2010-10-14 17:30 <wpwrak> get rid of arrow, function keys, etc.
2010-10-14 17:31 <wpwrak> ah, and CAPS LOCK, king of the useless :)
2010-10-14 17:31 <urandom__> how is that an improvemet to the current? (exept having no caps lock)
2010-10-14 17:31 <qbject> kristianpaul: I agree with urandom__. I'm disappointed with the touchscreen performance on my Android phone with a lot more cycles/second than my nn. I'm very happy to keep it gui-less. I just want to make it last forever, and be comfortable to use if it will last forever.
2010-10-14 17:32 <wpwrak> urandom__: wide space, wide enter, no arrow
2010-10-14 17:32 <urandom__> so better suited for non-asian hands, i see
2010-10-14 17:32 <wpwrak> urandom__: also, simpler shape, with the fn row integrated into the 5x10 matrix. also reduces the number of keys and thus may free some i/os
2010-10-14 17:33 <wpwrak> urandom__: (less asian) yeah ;-)
2010-10-14 17:33 <qbject> I had a thought about sticking two nn mobos in one case, one set up as a server, the other as a terminal and text-renderer. I wondered if I could drive a larger screen with that arrangement.
2010-10-14 17:33 <urandom__> we just need some kind of pointing device/trackpoint for the nanonote, much better than any touch screen
2010-10-14 17:34 <wpwrak> i think a touch screen would be nice. you just can't treat it like a mouse
2010-10-14 17:35 <wpwrak> qbject: (ben-for-display) i'd try just driving the big screen with a single ben. maybe memory bandwidth is sufficient. well, depends on how big you go.
2010-10-14 17:36 <wpwrak> qbject: alas, display-heavy applications tend to do little else, so there may not be such a big speedup when having two bens
2010-10-14 17:36 <wpwrak> urandom__: (pointint device) trackpoint ?
2010-10-14 17:38 <urandom__> wpwrak pointing stick like some good notebooks have it http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Mouse_pointing_stick.jpeg/800px-Mouse_pointing_stick.jpeg
2010-10-14 17:38 <wpwrak> what's nice about a touch screen is that it doesn't eat extra space and that you can shape the gui elements underneath. what's bad is that it's low resolution and that it gets the screen dirty.
2010-10-14 17:38 <wpwrak> yeah, that's the track point. i love those.
2010-10-14 17:39 <qbject> wpwrak: I wasn't thinking about display-heavy apps as much as making an extremely pleasant text interface with nice font rendering.
2010-10-14 17:45 <qbject> A handcrafted open machine designed for long-term relationships with the written word.
2010-10-14 18:00 <wpwrak> heh :)
2010-10-14 18:03 <viric> Hallo
2010-10-14 18:04 <qbject> greets viric
2010-10-14 18:04 <viric> I managed to get some system as a 'distributed feeds reader'
2010-10-14 18:04 <viric> and I can read offline all the rss feeds in the nanonote
2010-10-14 18:04 <viric> This changed the nanonote to something much more useful for me :)
2010-10-14 18:11 <wpwrak> qbject: implementing your suggestion of going fast. now my mill is ripping through fr4 at 0.5 mm/s instead of 0.1 mm/s :)
2010-10-14 18:12 <wpwrak> maybe i should even go faster. i've seen it jam into the piece at 10 mm/s by accident and nothing untoward happened. at some point, the adhesive tape holding the small pcb may come off, though.
2010-10-14 18:15 <qbject> Indeed. Tape shear strength is a consideration. :) Not sure how things change with a glass laminate like FR4, but a lot of exotic metals have to be cut aggressively, even when they're really hard to work (like titanium and high-alloy tool steel.) You have to keep cutting ahead of the work-hardening or it eats your tool.
2010-10-14 18:17 <qbject> But glass is very wear-resistant, and it takes it out on the cutter. So one would think you get more work out of each tooth if it has to cut through the workpiece fewer times.
2010-10-14 18:18 <qbject> How's that tape holding up? (I really hate it when workpieces come loose. It's almost as scary as crashing the head into the table.)
2010-10-14 18:19 <qbject> wpwrak: (which I did on that big red matsuura once. :O )
2010-10-14 18:21 <wpwrak> with the small mills i use, a workpiece coming loose tends to have the same result as the head hitting something that won't yield ...
2010-10-14 18:22 <wpwrak> (big mill crash) did the folks around you applaud ? ;-)
2010-10-14 18:23 <wpwrak> i went to 1 mm/s now. burr has increased but tolerable. the tape is doing fine so far
2010-10-14 18:25 <qbject> Hehe. They did cheer, actually.
2010-10-14 18:26 <qbject> It was a lot funnier than the time that someone left a half-meter of ~1cm rod sticking out of the chuck of a lathe and spun it up to 6000rpm. It went off-center and bent almost instantly, becoming the world's larges and most dangerous eggbeater.
2010-10-14 18:28 <wpwrak> workpiece shifted a little. but at a place where it doesn't matter.
2010-10-14 18:28 <qbject> nods
2010-10-14 18:28 <qbject> Are you shaping the FR4 or cutting away copper cladding?
2010-10-14 18:28 <wpwrak> (eggbeater) nice ! a good thing to know if someone you don't like is near the machine. oh so tragic accident :)
2010-10-14 18:29 <wpwrak> shaping the pcb. i haven't had much success with cutting just the copper so far.
2010-10-14 18:29 <qbject> And what are you doing to keep from filling your apartment with silicosis-inducing dust?
2010-10-14 18:30 <wpwrak> lemme see if i can find the picture that shows how i prevent this ...
2010-10-14 18:34 <wpwrak> ah no, you can's really see the box ... http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Roland_MDX-15_scanning_nanonote.jpg
2010-10-14 18:35 <wpwrak> i made a box for the mill. so most of the dust just stays in there (and noise as well)
2010-10-14 18:44 <qbject> Gotcha. Certainly better than nothing. :)
2010-10-14 18:48 <wpwrak> yup. besides, it's not as if i'd be cutting pcbs all the time
2010-10-14 18:49 <qbject> No indeed. You need time to test/break them in between!
2010-10-14 18:49 <wpwrak> yup. paticularly when it's break before test :)
2010-10-14 21:55 <kristianpaul> looks this http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
2010-10-14 21:56 <kristianpaul> "they say the hardware must run free software on every layer that is user upgradeable" tricky ;)
2010-10-14 21:57 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-10-14 21:57 <wolfspraul> if apple would remove iOS upgrades the iPhone would qualify as well
2010-10-14 21:57 <wolfspraul> to be honest, it's idiotic :-)
2010-10-14 21:58 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-10-14 21:58 <wolfspraul> we need to chart our own course into new territory, the fsf won't help. well, she helps us keep some confused people away from our project which is good so we waste less time in useless discussions.
2010-10-14 21:59 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: I'm serious. If a 'hardware maker' makes some functionality non-upgradeable, the fsf will endorse the product!
2010-10-14 21:59 <wolfspraul> the fsf actually promotes the locking down of proprietary software
2010-10-14 21:59 <kristianpaul> i know :(
2010-10-14 21:59 <wolfspraul> but it must be locked down so that the fsf can endorse it
2010-10-14 22:01 <kristianpaul> whut?? : The following arrangements can all be discussed:
2010-10-14 22:01 <kristianpaul> Use of the FSF name in your press releases and advertising, including quotes from FSF executives
2010-10-14 22:01 <kristianpaul> WTF is that thing?
2010-10-14 22:02 <kristianpaul> sigh
2010-10-14 22:02 <kristianpaul> you are right wolfspraul :)
2010-10-14 22:02 <wolfspraul> that's normal. in a press release you want quotes.
2010-10-14 22:02 <kristianpaul> ok..
2010-10-14 22:02 <wolfspraul> let's say you have a product, and on the launch date you want to have a quote from rms in your press release
2010-10-14 22:03 <wolfspraul> so basically they say when your product is endorsed, we will help you with a quote
2010-10-14 22:03 <kristianpaul> hmm
2010-10-14 22:04 <wolfspraul> that's just a technicality of press releases, but journalists will want to see it...
2010-10-14 22:04 <kristianpaul> sounds fair, but i dont this FSF is the best entity to qoute for hardware related things
2010-10-14 22:04 <wolfspraul> he
2010-10-14 22:04 <wolfspraul> correct!
2010-10-14 22:04 <kristianpaul> is confusing
2010-10-14 22:04 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-14 22:04 <kristianpaul> :D
2010-10-14 22:04 <wolfspraul> unfortunately in hardware, the fsf is a bit confused (or rather 'defocused') to distinguish between open and free
2010-10-14 22:05 <wolfspraul> although the difference between open and free is their speciality in software
2010-10-14 22:05 <kristianpaul> indeed
2010-10-14 22:05 <wolfspraul> so in software they promote free software, in hardware they promote open hardware (i.e. proprietary hardware with open APIs)
2010-10-14 22:05 <kristianpaul> I wonder wht thet came up with this endorsement criteria..
2010-10-14 22:06 <kristianpaul> s/wht/why
2010-10-14 22:06 <wolfspraul> they want to focus on free software and the gpl
2010-10-14 22:06 <wolfspraul> so they need a clear line where hardware starts
2010-10-14 22:06 <wolfspraul> even if that line is an illusion, they will just draw it and start evangelizing
2010-10-14 22:06 <kristianpaul> fair point for they
2010-10-14 22:06 <kristianpaul> (just draw it and start evangelizing) i hate that
2010-10-14 22:07 <wolfspraul> I think after a strong copyleft hardware movement and maybe organization is established, let's say in 10 years, the fsf would also be able to give up this nonsense and endorse real copyleft hardware, and only that
2010-10-14 22:07 <wolfspraul> but for now they endorse open hardware, fine...
2010-10-14 22:07 <wolfspraul> like I said, the tendency to lock down more and more software will help them, in a weird way, to find more products they can endorse :-)
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> the hardware makers just need to make it impossible to upgrade proprietary software
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> then the fsf can call it 'hardware'
2010-10-14 22:08 <kristianpaul> lockware
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> he :-)
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> YEAH!
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> good word
2010-10-14 22:08 <wolfspraul> fsf endorses lockware
2010-10-14 22:08 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-10-14 22:09 <wolfspraul> new: proprietary software is locked down, so you can feel good using it
2010-10-14 22:09 <wolfspraul> I think we should not annoy the fsf with this, it hurts our common cause.
2010-10-14 22:09 <kristianpaul> sure :)
2010-10-14 22:09 <wolfspraul> the fsf is doing very important work in software and the gpl
2010-10-14 22:09 <wolfspraul> we are trying in hardware, let's see how far we get...
2010-10-14 22:10 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-10-14 22:25 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: 'lockware' is really great, I'll start to use it... thanks!
2010-10-14 22:27 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: we can help each other out with quotes ;-)
2010-10-14 22:34 <kristianpaul> :-)
2010-10-14 22:34 <kristianpaul> gn9
2010-10-14 22:34 <kristianpaul> 8
2010-10-14 22:35 <wolfspraul> n8