2010-10-11 01:41 wolfspraul: hey 2010-10-11 01:41 hi 2010-10-11 01:42 I have read you message about someone bulid 10.20 SIE 2010-10-11 01:42 he 2010-10-11 01:42 you mean if someone wants to? 2010-10-11 01:43 where is that someone? 2010-10-11 01:43 maybe me 2010-10-11 01:43 I can ask for price to two local companies (well one on Italy) 2010-10-11 01:44 of course, go ahead 2010-10-11 01:44 you have a lot of data 2010-10-11 01:44 gerbers, ai files, bom, etc. 2010-10-11 01:44 all there 2010-10-11 01:44 you can make a list of parts that are hard to get for you, and you can buy them from me, at cost 2010-10-11 01:44 i.e. price I paid + shipping 2010-10-11 01:45 I would need to know the list of the parts you already hava and cost to evaluate 2010-10-11 01:45 we can also do pcb on our end, so you focus on smt 2010-10-11 01:45 up to you 2010-10-11 01:45 but the less I have to do the better :-) 2010-10-11 01:46 our entire Inventory is in the wiki :-) 2010-10-11 01:46 one sec 2010-10-11 01:46 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Inventory 2010-10-11 01:46 let me rename the page to Sharism_inventory 2010-10-11 01:47 yes I remember somthing like that, there can I take the stimated price for valid? 2010-10-11 01:48 I don't know 2010-10-11 01:48 sourcing is very messy 2010-10-11 01:48 normally I would not want to start selling out of my inventory, I'm not trying to become a components dealer. 2010-10-11 01:49 but in your case, if there are some parts that are hard to get, or have a high MOQ, of course I help you and just 'move them' to you at whatever cost I paid + shipping. 2010-10-11 01:49 but if you have a run, at the end you will have some excess parts anyway 2010-10-11 01:49 maybe you start Tuxbrain_inventory :-) 2010-10-11 01:50 and btw, Carlos is already making a number of changes, towards V3 I think 2010-10-11 01:51 so you might want to at least think about whether you want to make more V2, or the newer V3/in-progress-V3 right away 2010-10-11 01:51 I am actually thinking about the components/ordering process 2010-10-11 01:52 (that's unrelated to your proposed run) 2010-10-11 01:52 when wpwrak is back from his barbecue sleep, I'll see what he thinks 2010-10-11 01:53 we should work on that process a bit, starting from the components in kicad, then generate some kind of list, then automatically query distributors/stock levels/moq/lead time from octopart.com or so, then automatically generate shopping lists for mouser/digi-key/arrow/etc. 2010-10-11 01:54 Yanjun Luo (the milkymist jtag-serial guy) was complaining about components/bom handling in kicad, and I remember werner working on some scripts in that area as well 2010-10-11 01:55 tuxbrain: btw, check this http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Jtag-serial-board-on-m1.jpg 2010-10-11 01:55 nice picture of the jtag-serial daughterboard sitting on Milkymist One 2010-10-11 01:55 :-) 2010-10-11 01:56 thank for the info, I don't think I can progress on this any ealier than next week 2010-10-11 01:56 but now I know where to start :) 2010-10-11 01:56 nice pic! 2010-10-11 01:57 it's hard work 2010-10-11 01:58 hardware is called like that because it's hard :-) (stealing a quote from Harald) 2010-10-11 01:58 so don't underestimate 2010-10-11 01:58 but in the long run it can be good for you, for sure 2010-10-11 01:58 I'm remodelating web site removing some crap like OM, Netwalker, GP2x.... and include SIE, Milkimist as comming next 2010-10-11 01:58 we can work together, you make some things, I make some things 2010-10-11 01:58 no really I don't understimate at all 2010-10-11 01:59 also adding some linux service we where also done to some costumers , 2010-10-11 02:00 that work has priority to anything els 2010-10-11 02:00 else 2010-10-11 02:00 sure make some money! 2010-10-11 02:03 in paralel we have to do a course, a presentation for Hackmeeting in two weeks, host an Arduino Meeting at end of November, introduce my self in the fedora community, learn how FEL works, work on spi SDIO interface for ben, and time to time some sleep , 2010-10-11 02:05 also dayli common taks, as now, gonna prepare to ship some orders, c u, and thanks for the info. 2010-10-11 03:02 wolfspraul: out of interest, what is the warranty period for Ben? 2010-10-11 03:03 he, I don't know the official policy from our HK store 2010-10-11 03:03 so it depends on where i bought it? 2010-10-11 03:03 it depends, for example Tuxbrain in the EU has to offer at least whatever minimum the EU requires 2010-10-11 03:03 sure 2010-10-11 03:03 i see 2010-10-11 03:03 do you have a problem with yours? 2010-10-11 03:03 no-no, just asking :) 2010-10-11 03:03 so far there hasn't been a single warranty case that we would not have resolved 2010-10-11 03:04 keep in mind how small our community still is 2010-10-11 03:04 so there are few people that are trying to take advantage etc. 2010-10-11 03:04 so a defect rate is very small, that good 2010-10-11 03:04 ohs ure 2010-10-11 03:04 out of the first 1000 we sold, we had to replace maybe 6-8, worldwide 2010-10-11 03:04 mostly screen issues (fpc) 2010-10-11 03:05 most of those were 'refurbished', for example by replacing the fpc section 2010-10-11 03:05 some of the refurbished ones were sold at 50% off, some were donated for specific hacking projects 2010-10-11 03:05 how do you repair? is there a repairing workshop? 2010-10-11 03:06 I wish. 2010-10-11 03:06 not really 2010-10-11 03:06 although of course little by little we are accumulating pictures and what not in the wiki. or werner's case scans. 2010-10-11 03:06 but definitely we are going in that direction 2010-10-11 03:07 I will stick with this form factor. 2010-10-11 03:07 (there may be other form factors later but this one is nice for a pocket computer) 2010-10-11 03:07 in terms of warranty, my actual goal is to make electronics that last 20 years 2010-10-11 03:07 that is definitely not the case with the Ben 2010-10-11 03:07 oh lol :) 2010-10-11 03:07 the hinge will become loose 2010-10-11 03:08 are you sure that the planet will still be there in 20 years? :) 2010-10-11 03:08 some mechanical parts are really bad, such as the microSD connector and battery connector 2010-10-11 03:08 kyak: oh it's no problem 2010-10-11 03:08 you just asked about warranty so explain how I see it 2010-10-11 03:08 can i offer 20yr warranty for the ben - probably not 2010-10-11 03:08 totally sure 2010-10-11 03:08 so back to electronics, I think devices built for longevity (mostly mechanical longevity) go together with free software best 2010-10-11 03:09 free software needs time to mature, like good cheese or wine :-) 2010-10-11 03:09 of course technology advances, more mhz, more memory, higher resolution screens 2010-10-11 03:09 that is fine 2010-10-11 03:09 but when we sell a device, yes, I think it should work for 20 years 2010-10-11 03:09 not the Ben though, but with the Ben we are learning why that is not the case 2010-10-11 03:10 :-) 2010-10-11 03:10 i'd like to believe you, and i generally admire your ideas.. Though i think they are mostly far from real life 2010-10-11 03:10 so the Ya will be better 2010-10-11 03:10 he 2010-10-11 03:10 :-) 2010-10-11 03:11 kyak: how long do you think a computer should last? 2010-10-11 03:12 hm... i think it _could_ last for a long time, but what's the point? the hardware will become outdated in several years anyway 2010-10-11 03:14 kyak define outdated , wolfgang has interesting thoutghs about it, that I start to understand :) 2010-10-11 03:15 "outdated" means that that you can buy twice more powerfull device in two years for the same money 2010-10-11 03:15 so what's the point of keeping the old one for years? 2010-10-11 03:15 btw about patent and not allowed material in qi, I find that page very inspiring, and fedora has some lawyers to assess them so I think it will basically fine 2010-10-11 03:15 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems 2010-10-11 03:15 how old is your mobile phone? 2010-10-11 03:15 (asking both tuxbrain and wolfspraul) 2010-10-11 03:16 about 3-4 years I don't remember 2010-10-11 03:16 i suppose it is not 12 years old huge brick 2010-10-11 03:16 I think more on hardware like a car, 2010-10-11 03:16 3-5 years is a general warranty period for devices with no mechanical parts 2010-10-11 03:17 allways there are new carss, more bautifull , more faster, more confotable 2010-10-11 03:17 but meanwhile your car woks and is useful and doesn't estar to waste money in repairs you hold it until this moment arrives 2010-10-11 03:18 at least on computers I work the same way 2010-10-11 03:18 meanwhile I can do my job on them, they stay, if not I try to upgrade the bottleneck part if not then is time to change 2010-10-11 03:19 you are right, but computer is a bit different.. a new computer doesn't mean better ecology, safety etc 2010-10-11 03:19 kyak: I think you are lumping a lot of features into 'hardware' 2010-10-11 03:20 so of course many companies try to sell you something that they can declare outdated asap 2010-10-11 03:20 that's their business model 2010-10-11 03:20 when you become their customer, don't complain (only about your own stupidity maybe) 2010-10-11 03:20 if you make something bigger, it's easier to declare it outdated faster 2010-10-11 03:21 I'm looking at all this from a free software perspective. 2010-10-11 03:21 my mail client is mutt, and I don't think for email I will ever change, in my life 2010-10-11 03:21 that's my feeling 2010-10-11 03:21 there are not many more innovations in email. you tell me what happened in the last 10 years. spam filters? 2010-10-11 03:21 there is a time period for deprecation that makes sense. Of course i won't buy new computers every year, but i also won't stick with any device for 20 years :) 2010-10-11 03:22 oh you probably shouldn't 2010-10-11 03:22 ok let me ask you this way then 2010-10-11 03:22 the microSD connector on Ben 2010-10-11 03:22 let's say it costs 15 US cents 2010-10-11 03:22 average life expectancy 2 years 2010-10-11 03:22 then there is another one, costs 80 US cents 2010-10-11 03:22 average life exepctancy 10 years 2010-10-11 03:22 which one should the manufacturer you like to buy computers from use? 2010-10-11 03:23 then there is a third one, let's say 1.20 USD, which will last 20 years, on average 2010-10-11 03:23 you pick... 2010-10-11 03:24 well, in this case you should declare a life time warranty, most users will pick that 2010-10-11 03:25 don't understand 2010-10-11 03:25 which connector would you want your computer manufacturer to use? 2010-10-11 03:25 80 cents / 2 years 2010-10-11 03:25 sorry 2010-10-11 03:25 15 cents / 2 years 2010-10-11 03:25 of course the most reliable one 2010-10-11 03:25 80 cents / 10 years 2010-10-11 03:25 1.20 USD / 20 years 2010-10-11 03:25 ahhh :-) 2010-10-11 03:25 he he 2010-10-11 03:25 maybe we mean the same thing all along 2010-10-11 03:26 I am not telling you you have to use 20 year old computers for some bizarre reason. 2010-10-11 03:26 ah ok, i see your point 2010-10-11 03:26 I love high-tech. 2010-10-11 03:26 so I look at this from the manufacturer's perspective 2010-10-11 03:26 and I have issues with the Ben 2010-10-11 03:26 20 years warranty doesn't mean that you will be actually using it in 20 years 2010-10-11 03:26 1. microSD connector 2010-10-11 03:26 2. battery connector 2010-10-11 03:26 3. hinge 2010-10-11 03:26 I want a hinge that after it becomes loose, can be tightened again. 2010-10-11 03:26 the ben's hinge cannot, it's a throw-away design. 2010-10-11 03:27 you want that? 2010-10-11 03:27 probably not... 2010-10-11 03:27 that's a separate question, first as a manufacturer I try to make devices that will have very few failures over as long a timespan as reasonably possible. 2010-10-11 03:27 I think that goes along best with free software. 2010-10-11 03:27 other manufacturers have other goals, that go along better with their software :-) 2010-10-11 03:28 so for example on Milkymist One, we spend a lot of time to identify the 'right' connectors 2010-10-11 03:28 DMX from Neutrik, USB and Ethernet from Molex, etc. 2010-10-11 03:29 we actually even did connector comparisons, and surprisingly the more expensive ones really turned out to be the better ones. 2010-10-11 03:29 but frankly speaking, don't you want that a user who already has Ben to buy Ya? 2010-10-11 03:29 I think the happier he is with Ben, the more likely he will buy a Ya. 2010-10-11 03:29 why would he buy it, if he's satisfied with Ben and it is working for years? 2010-10-11 03:29 and the Ya has to have something new/exciting anyway. 2010-10-11 03:29 no I am not worried about that 2010-10-11 03:30 I don't think the Ben has to be crappy and fail to increase my chances to sell a Ya. 2010-10-11 03:30 yes, maybe that's a bad comparison because Ya has some obvious advatanges 2010-10-11 03:30 if there is nothing he needs in Ya, he can continue with the Ben, and maybe comes back in the future when we add something he actually needs. 2010-10-11 03:30 like I said, I am building a manufacturer that goes along best with free software 2010-10-11 03:31 and I am not worried about free software not supporting old devices anymore 2010-10-11 03:31 many other companies don't even have that option, because supporting old devices is terribly costly for them 2010-10-11 03:31 not on the mechanical side, but on the software side 2010-10-11 03:31 yeah, they usually just stop suppoting it 2010-10-11 03:31 now, we say, OF COURSE, because they came out with crazy hacked-together vendor ports that are totally unmaintainable 2010-10-11 03:31 well they cannot, they maneuvered themselves into a dead-end road, primarily on the software side 2010-10-11 03:32 this is a way to make people buy more 2010-10-11 03:32 if you can endlessly update my devices sw, it will always satisfy y needs 2010-10-11 03:32 *my needs 2010-10-11 03:33 you mean I should use artificial software obsolescence to sell new hardware? 2010-10-11 03:34 well that strategy won't work too well with free software either, because whatever trick I use to make my new software not work on the old hardware, people will just take it out, or run 100% free software on the old device in the first place 2010-10-11 03:34 no, cause you are a good guy :) but this is what others do, and this is how they survive 2010-10-11 03:34 ah no 2010-10-11 03:34 I don't see myself as the 'good guy'. 2010-10-11 03:34 I just try to explain the business model, the one of Sharism, and other manufacturers. 2010-10-11 03:35 you need to understand that many other manufacturers just do not possess (!) the software skills needed to execute a strategy such as the one I hope will eventually work for Sharism. 2010-10-11 03:35 so the fact that they have unmaintainable vendor ports is something they don't know how to avoid 2010-10-11 03:35 look at the mess that is already clearly visible in the Android scene now 2010-10-11 03:35 do we believe this is still fixable? 2010-10-11 03:35 maybe it's already too late 2010-10-11 03:36 the manufacturers are again too fast, they let software companies talk them into quickly throwing this or that device on the market, even though software will be unmaintainable later 2010-10-11 03:37 but to me, 'hardware' is just a bit of mechanical, silicon, metal, etc. around free software 2010-10-11 03:37 so we try to dig into those various things that are 'hardware', and then build them in such a way that they perfectly fit the needs, of today and tomorrow, of free software 2010-10-11 03:37 makes sense? 2010-10-11 03:37 I don't have these ideas in very polished sentences, sorry... 2010-10-11 03:37 hope I get it across 2010-10-11 03:38 i understand what you are talking about 2010-10-11 03:38 but a simple example: i own a linksys router 2010-10-11 03:38 so in that view, I also say 'hardware' should last 20 years.why not? are electrons wearing out the wires they are running through? I doubt it. 2010-10-11 03:39 the problems in longevity come from cheap mechanical, you wouldn't believe how rusty (!) many cheap Chinese connectors are even after 6 months 2010-10-11 03:39 and they have not been in a humidity/temperature test chamber, no no 2010-10-11 03:40 the first thing i did is throw away the manufcaturer firmware and put openwrt inside.. so now i'm greatly satisfied, and the device is working fine for years.. i don't need to buy another router 2010-10-11 03:40 great! 2010-10-11 03:40 but if they prevented me from updating the custome software, I would just go and buy another router when i need some feature not supported by this router 2010-10-11 03:41 so by giving such great freedom to their users, they reduce their sales :) 2010-10-11 03:41 you are trying to convince me with a hypothetical story that you aren't even following yourself? 2010-10-11 03:41 maybe if software would be un-updatable, you would not have bought their device in the first place 2010-10-11 03:42 good point 2010-10-11 06:57 Anyone know if there is a keymap file for the Nanonote? 2010-10-11 07:14 ezdagor: there was lots of keymap talk on the mailing list a while back 2010-10-11 07:15 are you using OpenWrt/Jlime/Debian? 2010-10-11 07:17 Debian. 2010-10-11 07:24 ezdagor: found this http://gitorious.org/mzcode/nanonotes/blobs/public/keymaps/us_bnn.kmap 2010-10-11 07:24 I'm just looking in the discussion mailing list archives, I don't know myself never ran Debian on my NN 2010-10-11 07:25 Awesome. Thanks, man. 2010-10-11 07:25 it's from the thread here http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-August/thread.html#4809 2010-10-11 07:25 Ok. 2010-10-11 07:25 if nobody else comes forward in irc, definitely also try emailing discussion@lists.en.qi-hardware.com 2010-10-11 07:26 Nod. 2010-10-11 07:27 best if you subscribe first, I need to moderate non-subscriber mails and sometimes it takes time, or you don't see the answer unless people remember hitting reply-all etc. 2010-10-11 07:27 you can subscribe at http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/mailman/listinfo/discussion 2010-10-11 07:30 Bleh. I am unable to save it any other way than HTML. 2010-10-11 07:40 hmm, too late http://gitorious.org/mzcode/nanonotes/blobs/raw/public/keymaps/us_bnn.kmap 2010-10-11 07:53 wolfspraul: (automatic component list) well, ben-wpan/atusd has that already :) (adapted from the process we used in gta02) 2010-10-11 08:01 wolfspraul: (bad usd connector) ah, you had bad experiences as well ? (i have one where my experiments dislocated one of the mechanical parts, so it doesn't "click" anymore. still works electrically, though) 2010-10-11 08:10 wpwrak: not only do I have bad experiences, but as I described to kyak earlier, I do believe that high quality mechanical and free software go together well, an ideal pair 2010-10-11 08:10 so I spend quite some time to dig into this, understand what is a good connector, what a bad connector 2010-10-11 08:10 what brands are actually good, which are just playing patent games and try to lock you in 2010-10-11 08:10 etc. 2010-10-11 08:11 we probably have to define some edurance tests at some point, kinda a like a 'free software mechanical quality' standard :-) 2010-10-11 08:11 below that is just crap... 2010-10-11 08:11 wpwrak: [component lists] ok, I start looking in ben-wpan/atusd then 2010-10-11 08:12 there are many things to improve, but that one seems like a reasonable next target 2010-10-11 08:12 what do you think? 2010-10-11 08:52 [commit] Niels: let the user select a subdirectory to mass download tiles into. Use this for tiles you want to delete after usage. Just delete the subdirectory in $HOME/Maps. http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/c4d718f 2010-10-11 08:52 [commit] Niels: show download progress only during the download http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/4c4a960 2010-10-11 08:52 [commit] Niels: fix layout of download widget http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/1d81db0 2010-10-11 09:26 wolfspraul: (bad quality) yes, agreed. i was just curious whether you had run into problems specifically with the uSD connector in the ben. this would become important when we start encouraging people to stick little pcbs in the uSD slot. 2010-10-11 09:26 (bom) it's a relatively low-hanging fruit since much of the work is already done, yes 2010-10-11 09:27 my bom processor isn't perfect but it does get the job done with a moderate amount of pain 2010-10-11 09:28 morning 2010-10-11 09:30 the tricky bits are the substitution scripts and of course the component equivalences (e.g., digi-key 123-456-nd == murata xyz789) 2010-10-11 09:31 also, one decision the bom system, doesn't take for/force on you is whether you want to introduce a qi-hw-specific layer of part numbers, and use these to pick parts. 2010-10-11 09:44 just sent another Sisvel mail to Chris 2010-10-11 09:45 he will shoot back I would think :-) 2010-10-11 09:46 he keeps saying that 'all devices' infringe, which is very unfortunate because he adds more FUD to the discussion 2010-10-11 09:46 oh well :-) 2010-10-11 09:46 he got burnt anyway, so he has the right to be angry... 2010-10-11 09:47 wpwrak: I don't want to introduce qi-hw specific anything, if possible 2010-10-11 09:47 I'll just look at what you have there first. 2010-10-11 09:47 is the bom coming out of the kicad files? 2010-10-11 09:56 yeah, i don't believe that interpretation either 2010-10-11 09:56 (bom) just a sec ... 2010-10-11 09:57 here's the big picture: the stuff lives in ben-wpan/bom/ 2010-10-11 09:57 Pulster could do a great service, he could publish the entire documentation he has about his lawsuit. 2010-10-11 09:57 but he will not, claiming all sorts of threads, confidentiality agreements, etc. etc. 2010-10-11 09:57 the scripts come from svn.openmoko.org/trunk/eda/boom/. there's a path to it in ben-wpan/bom/Makefile 2010-10-11 09:58 it's a pity, he could really help others coming full circle on this 2010-10-11 09:58 oh well 2010-10-11 10:08 wpwrak: oh I see you want to continue the good tradition of KiCad to be the application with the most extensions? 2010-10-11 10:09 in the ben-wpan/bom directory I see .inv .gen .equ .sub .chr .inc 2010-10-11 10:09 almost every file has its own extension :-) 2010-10-11 10:09 I just run 'make' and see what happens :-) 2010-10-11 10:10 boom not found, but it did quite a few things 2010-10-11 10:10 have you heard of octopart.com ? do you think they are any good? 2010-10-11 10:12 oh nice! boom/README! 2010-10-11 10:13 :) 2010-10-11 10:15 hmm, as usual this is seriously good work. I will take some time to read through it first. 2010-10-11 10:17 (octoparts) hmm, more or less. i use them when i can't find a part at the regular places. but often, they don't find stuff that is easy to find and they produce hits that are difficult to use. (e.g., manufacturer or "call for more information" brokers) 2010-10-11 10:23 two questions: are there standardized 'query APIs', and are there standardized 'shopping list' formats? 2010-10-11 10:24 I wouldn't want a digi-key only thing, we should be able to include farnell, mouser, arrow, and others if easily possible 2010-10-11 10:24 also if octopart has too many sources, but a good API (?), maybe we can include some? 2010-10-11 10:24 sorry I mean exclude some 2010-10-11 10:24 if possible, it would be great if things like MOQ and lead-time could be factored in as well 2010-10-11 10:25 well and stock-level 2010-10-11 10:25 stock-level, moq, lead-time 2010-10-11 10:33 wpwrak: some of the boom stuff seems to be around FIC-specific issues, that will probably never again appear in this way. true? 2010-10-11 10:33 for the rest, you start with the .lst file that comes out of KiCad. 2010-10-11 10:33 i don't think there are any standard APIs. but the script that talks to the API isn't all that complex. 2010-10-11 10:33 do you see any overlap in what you do outside/after KiCad and what KiCad should or might do inside of KiCad one day? 2010-10-11 10:34 just trying to understand where the lines between tools/packages could be 2010-10-11 10:34 hmm, not even sure there's anything FIC-specific in boom itself. 2010-10-11 10:34 is 'boom' a separate tool in and of itself, like fped 2010-10-11 10:34 ah OK, I look at the workflow in xfig 2010-10-11 10:35 the inventory (.inv) does include MOQ and stock. it doesn't have lead time, though. 2010-10-11 10:36 (boom vs. kicad) there was a bit of discussion about this. the general understanding is that BOM/inventory processing is very site-specific and kicad shouldn't try to get too deep into it 2010-10-11 10:38 boom is separate, yes 2010-10-11 10:44 sure there is always a line 2010-10-11 10:45 if both sides (KiCad & boom) know about each other and define the line clearly, and communicate with each other, that would be perfect 2010-10-11 10:47 wpwrak: so you see boom similar to fped? 2010-10-11 10:47 in terms of packaging/independence I mean 2010-10-11 10:54 (boom like fped) yes. fped is a bit more mature, though. boom is still somewhat experimental. also, the pattern matching syntax may been some simplification 2010-10-11 10:54 (line) i just track whatever kicad does :) 2010-10-11 10:54 yes but it sounds like they are aware of boom 2010-10-11 10:54 that's encouraging 2010-10-11 10:54 same as with schhist, I am very interested in getting this to work on the projects server, automatically and server-side run 2010-10-11 10:55 doesn't need to be tomorrow, I think the problem boom tries to solve is a bit more messy than schhist, for example 2010-10-11 10:55 the discussion was mainly about how to handle things in kicad and what the general requirements are. 2010-10-11 10:55 but you seem to be dancing around the right problems in boom, after a quick look 2010-10-11 10:55 I think I will play with it a bit locally first. 2010-10-11 10:56 lead-time is important, but we can look at missing features later. first I will try to understand what we have already, then how I can get it to run on the server 2010-10-11 10:56 in this case, bom stuff, I don't believe in the 'perfect' solution 2010-10-11 10:56 sourcing is always a bit messy, full of surprises 2010-10-11 10:57 so the system just needs to be flexible and robust and allow for easy modifications 2010-10-11 10:57 yes, boom needs much more context. you need to define which parameters describe a part, you need to define how you represent this in the schematics, you need parts lists for manufacturers, you need translation tables for distributors, and you need scripts that poll the distributor's database 2010-10-11 10:57 but it seems to be like that already... 2010-10-11 10:57 and you also need some system to manage your own inventory 2010-10-11 10:57 hmm 2010-10-11 10:57 ok one use case I am thinking about is this: 2010-10-11 10:57 I commit something into git 2010-10-11 10:58 an electrical design 2010-10-11 10:58 now I want to do a run of xx units, let's say 20 2010-10-11 10:58 (lead time) yes. for now i simply use zero lead time = inventory. boom doesn't use parts that aren't in stock. 2010-10-11 10:58 ideally the server can present me with some data / price list, so I can quickly send out an order to digi-key for some parts, to farnell for others, to arrow for yet others. 2010-10-11 10:58 and maybe source some key parts totally elsewhere 2010-10-11 10:59 for me it's about making the life of someone who wants to execute a run easier 2010-10-11 10:59 how can he efficiently generate and upload and order a shopping list 2010-10-11 10:59 for that query, you would (now) do this:Â Â make KITS=20 again show-atusd 2010-10-11 10:59 not click around websites forever 2010-10-11 11:00 yes, definitely 2010-10-11 11:00 also prices, availability and lead-times are constantly in flux 2010-10-11 11:00 so it needs to be able to draw data from multiple vendors 2010-10-11 11:00 you think boom fits the purpose I am describing (now or in the future, just want to make sure I am looking at the right tool) 2010-10-11 11:01 you'd also need vendor preferences. e.g., for me, electrocomponents.com.ar would be quite convenient. for you, not that much :) 2010-10-11 11:01 sure 2010-10-11 11:01 the process will be full of exceptions/customizations 2010-10-11 11:01 you can control this in boom by what vendor lists you feed to the system 2010-10-11 11:01 sometimes you have some parts in stock from an earlier run 2010-10-11 11:02 or the price drops significantly if you order 50 instead of 20, so significantly that you are better off ordering the 50 today 2010-10-11 11:02 and so on 2010-10-11 11:02 but once a vendor is included, it will be treated as equal to all others. so that's not very realistic. 2010-10-11 11:02 boom does that kind of calculation 2010-10-11 11:02 well it cannot know about planned future runs :-) 2010-10-11 11:02 and the size of them 2010-10-11 11:02 unless you tell it somehow, of course 2010-10-11 11:02 but like I said I am not looking for the perfect system 2010-10-11 11:03 just a starting point, then we can refine it slowly for real runs, real shopping activity 2010-10-11 11:03 no, that not :) but if 40 x MOQ 1 price > 1 x MOQ 50 price, it will get 50 2010-10-11 11:03 sure but if your run is 20, but at 50 the price drops a lot, and you have another run of 80 planned later, you may want to order 50 now already 2010-10-11 11:04 or even 100 right away, especially if there is another price drop there 2010-10-11 11:04 yes, i understand. that's something it doesn't know :) 2010-10-11 11:04 i think it would be useful for have some tool for interactively exploring the information/database. there are other areas as well, where the batch approach doesn't work so well, e.g., all the rewriting rules 2010-10-11 11:05 but i think it's safe to get started with it as it is now. you can always convert data and add features later 2010-10-11 11:05 totally it needs to be able to easily make manual overrides, not everywhere but at some key places 2010-10-11 11:06 (overrides) yes. there are some overrides you can do via equivalences. e.g., atrf.equ 2010-10-11 11:07 there i'm substituting the expensive wuerth balun with the less expensive johanson part 2010-10-11 11:08 does it currently assumes the inventory is always there together with the parts data? 2010-10-11 11:08 for me they are different 2010-10-11 11:08 the server doesnt' know about inventory 2010-10-11 11:09 the inventory is local to whoever wants to do a run 2010-10-11 11:09 it needs the inventory to decide what to pick 2010-10-11 11:09 so you upload your inventory, then the scripts can tell you what is missing 2010-10-11 11:09 otherwise you get things like atusd.par, with a list of all possible choices. pretty much useless for humans. 2010-10-11 11:10 or the scripts will always run based on an inventory assumption of 0, then you need to deduct what you have already at the end, either manually or with a separate script that is run on the 'client' (i.e. the machine of the person doing the run) 2010-10-11 11:10 (right now, the list is still manageable. but that's just because i didn't add a lot of sources) 2010-10-11 11:10 sure but I think about running this on the projects server now 2010-10-11 11:10 what 'inventory' does the projects server have? 2010-10-11 11:10 inventory assumption 0 means that it will not produce any output 2010-10-11 11:11 well let me look at the whole thing first 2010-10-11 11:11 i think what the project server can do for you is to give you a "reasonable" shopping list 2010-10-11 11:11 you have thought about it much more than me, you need to give me some time to catch up... 2010-10-11 11:11 if you want to customize, the you need to run it locally 2010-10-11 11:13 it would be possible to generate a list of alternative sources from the existing data. but that needs a different representation. e.g., with html output and when you click on a position, it shows you all the possible sources. 2010-10-11 11:14 even that wouldn't be perfect, though, as there may be equivalent parts. and sometimes, parts for distinct components get lumped together. 2010-10-11 11:15 e.g., if you need a 100 kOhm 1% resistor and some 100 kOhm 5% resistors, then it may be cheaper to buy everything 1% than splitting 2010-10-11 11:15 ok but that example would only matter in higher volumes 2010-10-11 11:15 so you get one entry in the shopping list. but if you change the suppliers, that may change as well, so the number of positions in the shopping list is variable as well. 2010-10-11 11:16 naw, particularly for small volumes :) 2010-10-11 11:16 whether a resistor has 1% or 5% accuracy? 2010-10-11 11:16 if MOQ for a resistor is 1 at one place and 10 at the other, that may already make a difference. of course, it's cents. 2010-10-11 11:16 he, that's what I mean 2010-10-11 11:16 fractions of cents 2010-10-11 11:17 ok anyway, boom should try to deal with those cases, even to document them is good 2010-10-11 11:17 it's not infinite after all 2010-10-11 11:17 that's why I like boom, it tries to bring order into this mess 2010-10-11 11:17 there a bit the problem of computational complexity. also, perl isn't the most efficient language for such things. 2010-10-11 11:18 k great I think I got it somewhat 2010-10-11 11:18 but so far, it's holding up well, also for a larger project like gta02-core. 2010-10-11 11:18 let me read through the scripts and think a bit 2010-10-11 11:18 have fun ! :) 2010-10-11 11:18 I want to get this up and running on the qi projects server, for sure 2010-10-11 11:18 one-click shopping list 2010-10-11 11:18 :-) 2010-10-11 11:18 maybe you also need to tell it your income level 2010-10-11 11:19 if you are rich, just order everything from digi-key, done 2010-10-11 11:19 sounds good. also, people often wonder what the material cost of some project is. that would provide a quick answer. 2010-10-11 11:19 maybe you need to give it your self-declared hourly salary 2010-10-11 11:19 ah yes 2010-10-11 11:19 digi-key aren't that expensive ... 2010-10-11 11:19 but frankly, if I get that type of 'bom' question I already know it's not going anywhere 2010-10-11 11:19 the people that are asking these questions have a strange mindset 2010-10-11 11:19 many things there are quite okay. 2010-10-11 11:19