2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: silence error when package has no patches directory. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d340b5b
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: check in package lojban-wordlists http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7253552
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: jbofihe: The Lojban Parser http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8834e02
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: Add package description for makfa. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8c2ff78
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: Move makfa from education to Languages/Lojban. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9ef3793
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: Record myself as the maintainer of makfa. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a3c7562
2010-10-09 00:18 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: makfa package python cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0847b73
2010-10-09 00:18 <aisa> yay!
2010-10-09 00:25 <wolfspraul> wow
2010-10-09 00:26 <aisa> It is adding two packages and cleaning up the original package I ported, now that I know more about OpenWrt.
2010-10-09 00:26 <wolfspraul> good
2010-10-09 00:26 <wolfspraul> that first patch into openwrt-xburst, let me see
2010-10-09 00:26 <aisa> but as is my habit, I split each change in the cleanup into its own patch.
2010-10-09 00:26 <aisa> I'll bet that one is upstream in trunk.
2010-10-09 00:26 <aisa> I didn't check,
2010-10-09 00:27 <aisa> but it is a very obvious bugfix.
2010-10-09 00:27 <wolfspraul> in general we try to avoid any diff between openwrt-xburst and upstream openwrt that is not absolutely necessary
2010-10-09 00:27 <wolfspraul> yes great, then maybe submit it as a patch upstream too
2010-10-09 00:27 <aisa> I could post it to OpenWrt devel.
2010-10-09 00:27 <aisa> I was just about to ask ;-)
2010-10-09 00:27 <wolfspraul> probably a good idea, although I am also not 100% sure what upstreaming workflow the openwrt guys prefer
2010-10-09 00:28 <aisa> I'll ask as part of my bug report, those guys have been great to me so far.
2010-10-09 00:28 <wolfspraul> just try out see what happens...
2010-10-09 00:28 <wolfspraul> ok sounds good
2010-10-09 00:28 <wolfspraul> in openwrt-packages, in general we are much more free
2010-10-09 00:28 <wolfspraul> because even from the perspective of upstream, that can be seen like an additional 'feed' (=package repository)
2010-10-09 00:28 <wolfspraul> so it's a complement to upstream
2010-10-09 00:29 <wolfspraul> if one of the packages in openwrt-packages would show up in another feed, we could remove it in openwrt-packages
2010-10-09 00:29 <wolfspraul> but since many of them are console tools or NanoNote specific, or at least assume a screen/keyboard etc. I think it might be that openwrt-packages becomes another stable long-term feed for OpenWrt
2010-10-09 00:29 <wolfspraul> but in openwrt-xburst, we are trying to manage (i.e. keep small) the diff to upstream at any time
2010-10-09 00:30 <aisa> Indeed.  My previous change I'll be shortly reverting and placing somewhere else, so it won't show up as a diff vs upstream.
2010-10-09 00:30 <aisa> but I want to first test this permission problem I thought I saw.
2010-10-09 00:30 <wolfspraul> sure sure. don't feel kicked around. I am just explaining the current school of thought.
2010-10-09 00:30 <wolfspraul> all of this can change too.
2010-10-09 00:30 <wolfspraul> mirko made some good suggestions to me recently in a phone call
2010-10-09 00:31 <aisa> I've tried to "behave as if" and act as if you were 100% right,
2010-10-09 00:31 <wolfspraul> he proposed to delete the 'tracking_trunk' branch in openwrt-xburst, because nobody is active there
2010-10-09 00:31 <aisa> taking your advice that I should get to know how Qi works first.
2010-10-09 00:31 <aisa> So far it has been a good experience.
2010-10-09 00:31 <wolfspraul> people interested in that could take the upstream trunk as a starting point instead, tracking_trunk is just a trap
2010-10-09 00:31 <wolfspraul> I agree
2010-10-09 00:31 <aisa> I'm not sure about tracking_trunk, yeah.
2010-10-09 00:31 <wolfspraul> then he suggested the name 'tracking_backfire' is not ideal, he proposed that 'tracking_backfire' should do just that, i.e. track backfire
2010-10-09 00:31 <aisa> it isn't like we'd even use it for the next stable branch.
2010-10-09 00:31 <wolfspraul> and there should be a second branch named 'backfire_qi' or so
2010-10-09 00:32 <wolfspraul> but then we said we wait with another rename until more pain has built up :-)
2010-10-09 00:32 <aisa> :-)
2010-10-09 00:32 <wolfspraul> also we need to keep in mind that Milkymist is coming
2010-10-09 00:32 <wolfspraul> which I hope over the next year or so we see support for in OpenWrt as well
2010-10-09 00:32 <wolfspraul> then the name of the whole project would be wrong 'openwrt-xburst'
2010-10-09 00:33 <wolfspraul> but instead of renaming like crazy now disturbing many people, let's wait until there is more need for it
2010-10-09 00:33 <aisa> Do you remember the mailing list message about LibreWrt?  And their desire to get FSF sanction as a free distribution?
2010-10-09 00:33 <wolfspraul> tracking_trunk can be deleted I think, if there are no objections I think it will just be done soon
2010-10-09 00:33 <aisa> I've been wondering if as part of that, or even just for testing,
2010-10-09 00:33 <aisa> we might need an x86 branch at some point.
2010-10-09 00:33 <wolfspraul> ah that's a long story
2010-10-09 00:34 <wolfspraul> the main LibreWrt guy is on this channel, djbclark
2010-10-09 00:34 <aisa> I'm ok deleting tracking_trunk, personally.
2010-10-09 00:34 <aisa> djbclark: I'd like to brainstorm with you a bit, if you see this.  I'm User:Alanpost on the wiki.
2010-10-09 00:34 <aisa> that takes care of that ;-)
2010-10-09 00:35 <wolfspraul> if you read between the lines of his last mail or post somewhere (I think it was him), it read some people might not see the need or usefulness of FSF endorsement in the first place
2010-10-09 00:35 <wolfspraul> he he
2010-10-09 00:35 <wolfspraul> well, between the lines, some of those people are me
2010-10-09 00:35 <aisa> heh.
2010-10-09 00:35 <wolfspraul> the FSF has great merits in free software, copyright, and the GPL
2010-10-09 00:36 <wolfspraul> but in copyleft hardware they have proven to be useless
2010-10-09 00:36 <wolfspraul> in fact, counter-productive
2010-10-09 00:36 <aisa> dang.  It certainly isn't their primary focus.
2010-10-09 00:36 <wolfspraul> they will endorse a product with hidden proprietary software over the same product where the same (!) proprietary software is exposed
2010-10-09 00:37 <wolfspraul> since we need to extend the freedoms into the hardware world, that's really bad to us
2010-10-09 00:37 <wolfspraul> because the FSF will rather have the things we are trying to free be locked away
2010-10-09 00:37 <wolfspraul> but we need it the other way round
2010-10-09 00:37 <wolfspraul> we need to expose any proprietary stuff, and write free replacements
2010-10-09 00:37 <wolfspraul> OpenWrt is a tool in that process
2010-10-09 00:38 <wolfspraul> thank you OpenWrt
2010-10-09 00:38 <wolfspraul> no thanks, I don't need you FSF
2010-10-09 00:38 <aisa> The bugfix I made to OpenWrt isn't in trunk either.
2010-10-09 00:38 <aisa> w00t, I fixed a bug in OpenWrt :-)
2010-10-09 00:38 <wolfspraul> having said that, I hope djbclark can become an active distributor of copyleft hardware in the US :-) (www.freedomincluded.com is his site)
2010-10-09 00:39 <wolfspraul> so I hope they can finish LibreWrt and start shipping, or maybe now that they realized 'Wrt' is too much of an advertisement for the wrong thing, they rename it first. don't know. ask them.
2010-10-09 00:39 <wolfspraul> they are advertising the sale of hidden proprietary software all the time
2010-10-09 00:39 <wolfspraul> but since it's hidden they can claim it doesn't exist, even though they know better
2010-10-09 00:39 <wolfspraul> pretty amazing
2010-10-09 00:39 <wolfspraul> a bit Chinese actually :-)
2010-10-09 00:40 <wolfspraul> aisa: bottom line: I focus on OpenWrt, OpenWrt is great. LibreWrt solves a strange problem from my perspective, although the result will still be free software, and run on the NanoNote, so fine.
2010-10-09 00:41 <wolfspraul> is anyone HURD?
2010-10-09 00:41 <aisa> Having worked with OpenWrt now, I really understand why you like it.
2010-10-09 00:41 <aisa> It is amazing.
2010-10-09 00:46 <aisa> I sent the patch to openwrt-devel.
2010-10-09 00:46 <wolfspraul> congratulations!
2010-10-09 00:46 <wolfspraul> if you are already at the level that you can provide actual fixes to them that would be awesome
2010-10-09 00:46 <wolfspraul> let's see...
2010-10-09 00:54 <wolfspraul> aisa: hmm, looking at the patch, you are removing the redirection of stderr to /dev/null ?
2010-10-09 00:54 <wolfspraul> and that makes it ignore the missing directory?
2010-10-09 00:55 <wolfspraul> -       @if [ -d "$(2)" -a "$$$$(ls $(2) 2>/dev/null | wc -l)" -gt 0 ]; then \
2010-10-09 00:55 <wolfspraul> +       @if [ -d "$(2)" -a "$$$$(ls $(2) | wc -l)" -gt 0 ]; then \
2010-10-09 00:55 <wolfspraul> (for reference)
2010-10-09 00:55 <aisa> it sends the error, which happens on stderr, to /dev/null.
2010-10-09 00:55 <aisa> so, I'm adding it.
2010-10-09 00:55 <aisa> did I get the patch backwards?
2010-10-09 00:55 <aisa> dur.
2010-10-09 00:55 <wolfspraul> ah :-)
2010-10-09 00:55 <wolfspraul> that explains it :-)
2010-10-09 00:56 <wolfspraul> redirecting stderr to /dev/null also isn't the nicest thing to do. why not add a separate check whether the directory exists?
2010-10-09 00:56 <aisa> I think that is the better plan,
2010-10-09 00:56 <wolfspraul> well, let's see what feedback they give...
2010-10-09 00:56 <aisa> indeed.
2010-10-09 00:57 <aisa> ok, corrected patch sent.
2010-10-09 00:57 <aisa> thank you for catching that!
2010-10-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> if you still redirect I wouldn't be surprised if they don't like it
2010-10-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> I wouldn't
2010-10-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> I'm always amazed how well this stderr and stdout stuff works
2010-10-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> sometimes I run a high-level command on a server, and it fails
2010-10-09 00:58 <wolfspraul> then I think "oh my god, how long will it take until I figured out where in the system the error comes from"
2010-10-09 00:59 <wolfspraul> but there it is... from deep inside the scripting and utilities magic... reported all the way through to me
2010-10-09 00:59 <wolfspraul> (sometimes, I admit, but when it works it's really nice)
2010-10-09 00:59 <wolfspraul> but that only works if people have some discipline in not silencing stdout/stderr, but keeping them untouched so the entire stack can benefit
2010-10-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> if I assume I'm the topmost script/caller I admit I also often just silence it, to get my job done
2010-10-09 01:00 <wolfspraul> anyway
2010-10-09 01:00 <aisa> Indeed.  If I understood better the syntax being used right there, I'd do if [ -f $(1) ]; ls $(1)
2010-10-09 01:00 <aisa> or something like it.
2010-10-09 01:01 <aisa> I think it is good to start with a solution that can be clearly improved on, it gives someone an opportunity to teach :-)
2010-10-09 01:01 <aisa> Also, I copied that strategy from elsewhere in the code.
2010-10-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> he, yeah
2010-10-09 01:01 <wolfspraul> I also don't know right away how to get the check inserted
2010-10-09 01:02 <aisa> oh, hey: question
2010-10-09 01:02 <aisa> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/lojban-wordlists/Makefile
2010-10-09 01:02 <wolfspraul> isn't the -d at the beginning checking whether the directory exists?
2010-10-09 01:02 <aisa> oh, hmmm.  Well, it isn't working :-)
2010-10-09 01:02 <aisa> Will you look at the header at the top of that url?
2010-10-09 01:03 <aisa> I have no idea what I should put for copyright and/or boilerplate.
2010-10-09 01:03 <aisa> at the top of my package Makefiles.
2010-10-09 01:03 <wolfspraul> if you are the author, copyright is yours
2010-10-09 01:03 <wolfspraul> as for license preference, mine is GPL v3 or higher
2010-10-09 01:03 <aisa> you're right, something deeper is going on there.
2010-10-09 01:04 <aisa> excellent.  I'll clean them up next time I come around.
2010-10-09 01:04 <aisa> I think that -d line is broken,
2010-10-09 01:04 <wolfspraul> he, OK I see your header
2010-10-09 01:04 <aisa> no...
2010-10-09 01:04 <wolfspraul> the license really is your choice
2010-10-09 01:04 <aisa> I can't figure it out yet.
2010-10-09 01:04 <wolfspraul> but you currently have 'v2 only' (not even 'or higher')
2010-10-09 01:05 <aisa> gah.
2010-10-09 01:05 <aisa> I copied that from somewhere,
2010-10-09 01:05 <wolfspraul> my choice would be 'v3 or higher'
2010-10-09 01:05 <aisa> it is going to say that elsewhere too.
2010-10-09 01:05 <aisa> yeah, no reason to use v2 any longer.
2010-10-09 01:05 <wolfspraul> also don't forget the 'or higher', unless you specifically don't want that
2010-10-09 01:05 <aisa> right, that is very important.
2010-10-09 01:05 <wolfspraul> for copyright, it's probably better if you keep yourself in there
2010-10-09 01:06 <wolfspraul> we have no system of copyright transfers or handovers at qi-hardware.com and nobody is planning on setting one up
2010-10-09 01:06 <wolfspraul> and I don't like to hoarde copyrights unless there is real management/representation along with it
2010-10-09 01:07 <wolfspraul> we are giving a stronger picture if we put the copyright on more shoulders, on the real authors
2010-10-09 01:07 <wolfspraul> that's again just my opinion, but since you ask I answer
2010-10-09 01:10 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: Fix license statement to conform to gplv3 and properly credit author. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/db7d691
2010-10-09 01:11 <wolfspraul> he, perfect :-)
2010-10-09 01:12 <wolfspraul> I'm not sure what the latest guidelines are about author reachability, email addresses etc.
2010-10-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> in some (rare but important) cases the ability to reach many authors of whatever project quickly and effectively can be very helpful
2010-10-09 01:13 <aisa> ah, indeed.
2010-10-09 01:13 <aisa> I though that having my name there would be tied to my commit access.
2010-10-09 01:13 <aisa> and of course, if my e-mail address changes, I can update in one place.
2010-10-09 01:13 <wolfspraul> sure it may be
2010-10-09 01:13 <aisa> however, this is only true so long as the code is stored at this repository.
2010-10-09 01:14 <aisa> and being free software,
2010-10-09 01:14 <aisa> it may well get copied around.
2010-10-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> but like I said "quickly and effectively"
2010-10-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> correct
2010-10-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> I don't know what the latest state-of-the-art there is.
2010-10-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> but just "Alan Post" is probably not ideal
2010-10-09 01:14 <aisa> right.
2010-10-09 01:14 <aisa> let me think the night on this one.
2010-10-09 01:14 <wolfspraul> I always check with the Linux kernel, they tend to have the most verbose and thought through policies.
2010-10-09 01:14 <aisa> It could be best to have an AUTHORS file,
2010-10-09 01:15 <aisa> with many ways of contacting.
2010-10-09 01:15 <aisa> or it could be better to add an e-mail to every header.
2010-10-09 01:15 <aisa> ah, indeed.
2010-10-09 01:15 <aisa> wonderful idea.
2010-10-09 01:17 <wolfspraul> about why -d doesn't work..
2010-10-09 01:17 <wolfspraul> do you know why there are 4 $$$$ ?
2010-10-09 01:17 <wolfspraul> it isn't immediately obvious to me
2010-10-09 01:17 <aisa> I don't know, other than two escapes.
2010-10-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> maybe there need to be 4 $$$$ in the -d also ? :-)
2010-10-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> just guessing around...
2010-10-09 01:18 <aisa> ha!  right.
2010-10-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> well not sure
2010-10-09 01:18 <aisa> Hey, it is late here for me, and now that I've made these commits, I have accomplished my goal for the evening.
2010-10-09 01:18 <aisa> I'm going to go to sleep.
2010-10-09 01:18 <wolfspraul> after -d is a test after -a (stands for 'and', right) is an expression
2010-10-09 01:19 <aisa> I believe that is all true.
2010-10-09 01:19 <wolfspraul> ok 'night
2010-10-09 01:19 <aisa> co'o
2010-10-09 01:27 <wpwrak> i think that should be ` ... ` instead of $(...)
2010-10-09 01:27 <wpwrak> or wait, no, i'm confusing this with $(shell )
2010-10-09 01:28 <wpwrak> strange then
2010-10-09 01:32 <wpwrak> ah no. makes sense. use [ X ] && [ Y ] instead of [ X -a Y ] :)
2010-10-09 01:35 <wolfspraul> oh the -a will not abort after the left part failed?
2010-10-09 01:35 <wolfspraul> I didn't know that...
2010-10-09 01:35 <wolfspraul> I would have thought every language does that
2010-10-09 01:36 <wpwrak> the -a can't. you're invoking "test" with the arguments already expanded. the error happens in the expansion.
2010-10-09 01:37 <wpwrak> on the other hand, with &&, the shell sees that the left-hand side is false and doesn't expand the right-hand side
2010-10-09 01:40 <wolfspraul> so the fixed line is? @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ "$$$$(ls $(2) 2>/dev/null | wc -l)" -gt 0 ]; then \
2010-10-09 01:40 <wolfspraul> (too lazy to try this out)
2010-10-09 01:40 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: can I delete s.try on fidelio:/home/schhist ?
2010-10-09 01:41 <wpwrak> me too ;-)  looks good excelt that you don't need the 2>/dev/null
2010-10-09 01:41 <wolfspraul> ah sure
2010-10-09 01:42 <wolfspraul> aisa: try this one @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ "$$$$(ls $(2) | wc -l)" -gt 0 ]; then \
2010-10-09 01:43 <wpwrak> or, much simpler [ ! -z `ls $(2)` ]
2010-10-09 01:43 <wolfspraul> (hope this won't wake you up, but I cannot imagine anyone configuring their irc client to connect nick mentioning to an alarm bell or such :-))
2010-10-09 01:43 <wpwrak> (for the 2nd expression. still need the first)
2010-10-09 01:44 <wolfspraul> @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ ! -z `ls $(2)` ]; then \
2010-10-09 01:47 <wpwrak> or, still better
2010-10-09 01:47 <wpwrak> @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ `ls $(2)` ]; then \
2010-10-09 01:49 <wpwrak> ah no, that's too efficient :)
2010-10-09 01:49 <wpwrak> @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ "`ls $(2)`" ]; then \
2010-10-09 01:49 <wolfspraul> about schhist, we leave the SCHHIST_ADDLIBS=device on for every project?
2010-10-09 01:50 <wolfspraul> can I delete s.try?
2010-10-09 01:50 <wpwrak> the ls $(2) is also potential trouble, though. if $(2) has a space, this will fail
2010-10-09 01:50 <wpwrak> (s.try) ah yes, please
2010-10-09 01:51 <wpwrak> (devices) not sure how common the problem is. i would hope it isn't, but i didn't examine the other projects.
2010-10-09 01:51 <wolfspraul> ok but in a server/buildhost environment, is there any advantage of not setting it?
2010-10-09 01:51 <wolfspraul> because if not, I will just always set it
2010-10-09 01:52 <wpwrak> in case you have your own set of replacements with the same name, "devices" could get in the way
2010-10-09 01:53 <wpwrak> we,, i'm not sure entirely about that. since it gets added at the end, maybe it's searched last, so it wouldn't matter
2010-10-09 01:53 <wolfspraul> I leave it in for all right now
2010-10-09 01:53 <wpwrak> that's fine for now
2010-10-09 02:47 <kyak> kristianpaul: in fact, everything was already there.. had to port mpfr and gcc, now fighting with uClibc (had to copy some dev files manually)
2010-10-09 02:54 <wolfspraul> kyak: what are you porting?
2010-10-09 02:55 <kyak> it's gcc
2010-10-09 02:58 <wolfspraul> kyak: you mean into OpenWrt?
2010-10-09 02:59 <kyak> yes
2010-10-09 02:59 <wolfspraul> oh wow
2010-10-09 03:00 <kyak> actually, this is working already.. but  not clean - had to copy some files manually, and links only statically
2010-10-09 03:39 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: gcc: initial port http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/285555c
2010-10-09 03:39 <qi-bot> [commit] kyak: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/568ac7b
2010-10-09 03:40 <kyak> i've commited it for now, but it still requires some polishing (it builds only with "-static")
2010-10-09 03:41 <kyak> also the package size is ~11 Mb, i think some files can be thrown away
2010-10-09 03:43 <kyak> but it's good to test
2010-10-09 03:51 <wolfspraul> nice, congratulations!
2010-10-09 03:53 <kyak> thanks, but as i said, it was already there :)
2010-10-09 03:54 <wolfspraul> sorry can't follow now
2010-10-09 03:54 <wolfspraul> it was there? where?
2010-10-09 03:57 <kyak> binutils, gmp were already ported; mpfr is a part of toolchain, i only packaged it; uClibc is in toolchain; gcc was also ported for x86, i just had to modify it
2010-10-09 03:58 <wolfspraul> ah OK, now I got it :-)
2010-10-09 03:58 <wolfspraul> sorry..., lack of overview
2010-10-09 04:31 <kyak> it is amazingly slow, btw.. during usual ./configure at takes ~1-2 seconds for each test line to appear
2010-10-09 04:32 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-10-09 04:32 <wolfspraul> interesting
2010-10-09 04:52 <kyak> for example: the 'patch' utility takes 0m 06.24s for configure, 0m 02.78s for make on my host.. and on Ben configure takes 3m 10.02s and make is 5m 49.95s
2010-10-09 04:53 <kyak> i guess i have to throw away the idea of building kernel and rootfs on Ben :)
2010-10-09 04:54 <wolfspraul> that's a pretty radical idea anyway
2010-10-09 04:54 <wolfspraul> I think gcc is nice to have, in a number of cases
2010-10-09 04:54 <wolfspraul> and also patch, make, etc.
2010-10-09 04:54 <wolfspraul> but to build the rootfs? not sure...
2010-10-09 04:55 <wolfspraul> but hey, who knows. maybe performance can be improved? don't know.
2010-10-09 04:55 <kyak> now, it's just for fun
2010-10-09 04:56 <wolfspraul> I'm wondering how this was when we had Pentium-90 machines
2010-10-09 04:56 <kyak> besides, would be cool to state to someone that Ben is self-sufficient and can be used to build a firmware for itself
2010-10-09 04:56 <wolfspraul> I think I remember having had 16 and 33 mhz 386 computers.
2010-10-09 04:56 <wolfspraul> yes agree
2010-10-09 04:57 <kyak> i rememeber i built linux kernel on AMD K6-2 (450 Mhz)
2010-10-09 04:57 <kyak> it took couple of days.. i wonder if that COU is fast than that of Ben
2010-10-09 05:00 <kyak> would be good to hae an understanding what is the analogue of our JZ4740 CPU in x86 world
2010-10-09 05:00 <kyak> like, it is PEntium-I? or II?
2010-10-09 05:08 <wolfspraul> hmm, not sure
2010-10-09 05:08 <wolfspraul> there are many differences, in instruction set, pipeline/caching architecture, bus speed and width
2010-10-09 05:09 <wolfspraul> best is probably to just run the same load and then compare, like building patch :-)
2010-10-09 05:10 <kyak> yep.. now to find such old trash :)
2010-10-09 05:14 <kyak> i wonder if this can be emulated in virtual machine
2010-10-09 05:34 <tuxbrain> kyak: time ago there was a benchmark test with pentium openmoko nanonote and pentiumII search the archives
2010-10-09 05:36 <tuxbrain> kiak my mistake it was other procesors but a benchmark any way it was called "A few benchmarks for the Nanonote" from Delbert Franz at May 4th
2010-10-09 05:47 <kyak> tuxbrain: thanks for the hint
2010-10-09 05:50 <kyak> yes, nice post from Delbert Franz
2010-10-09 05:51 <kyak> as i see, Ben is 2 to 10 times slower than a PC of Pentium II class
2010-10-09 08:06 <B_Lizzard> I just fixed me a nice gtk-1.2 theme
2010-10-09 08:06 <B_Lizzard> Next up, implementing applications
2010-10-09 09:12 <wpwrak> kyak: maybe try to use uSD instead of NAND or vice versa. also, adding swap may help. it allows the kernel to get rid of idle pages, so it can do better caching.
2010-10-09 09:13 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: on those older systems, we also had leaner tools. e.g., gcc 1.something ;-)
2010-10-09 09:14 <wpwrak> well, on the 386. on the pentium, it was already gcc 2 or such. i remember that going from gcc 1 to 2 was quite a bit of pain, because it was so slow.
2010-10-09 09:15 <wolfspraul> the first version I used was 2.95
2010-10-09 09:15 <wolfspraul> before that only Microsoft compilers
2010-10-09 09:15 <wolfspraul> or Borland before that :-)
2010-10-09 09:17 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: did you get my reply about the patent policy?
2010-10-09 09:17 <wolfspraul> I think we should just upload the text to that page, then we can go from there
2010-10-09 09:17 <wolfspraul> it's a wiki :-)
2010-10-09 09:18 <kristianpaul> xiangfu: i'm confused, i tough there was a target system for SIE in xburst openwrt?..
2010-10-09 09:18 <wolfspraul> he
2010-10-09 09:18 <wolfspraul> the hunt for the nonexisting SIE target maintainer has started
2010-10-09 09:18 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-10-09 09:19 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: maybe you can say some magic words in Spanish to Carlos, and he will switch from massive extremely hacky patches that are sent around as attachments in private mails to something a bit more collaboration friendly :-)
2010-10-09 09:20 <wolfspraul> we have patches flying aroud that brutally just comment out stuff in the Ben sources, and replace it with SIE stuff. If we would 'apply' those, the Ben build would, small side-effect, completely break right away
2010-10-09 09:20 <wolfspraul> so big surprise - the patches cannot be applied :-)
2010-10-09 09:20 <wolfspraul> first step would be to stop patching (breaking) Ben sources, and instead have a few dedicated SIE source files where it's necessary
2010-10-09 09:20 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (policy) i saw that i have mail. will read it over breakfast :)
2010-10-09 09:20 <wolfspraul> oh sure take your time
2010-10-09 09:21 <wolfspraul> your text is the best that was written down on that subject since Qi was started
2010-10-09 09:21 <wolfspraul> we don't seem to have the people (me included) that have enough motivation to try to tame that mess with a good text
2010-10-09 09:21 <wolfspraul> look at the patent-free page :-)
2010-10-09 09:21 <wolfspraul> that's as much as we could squeeze out from our results-oriented minds...
2010-10-09 09:21 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: so the image my SIE board have came up from a Carlos private mail?.. :/
2010-10-09 09:21 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Patent-free
2010-10-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (magic words) kristianpaul said that he doesn't know carlos. so he may not date to use "boludo", which is i think the word you're looking for ;-) (well, i'm not sure they have it in colombia)
2010-10-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> they know each other a bit, I mean we all hung out at the Campus Party together
2010-10-09 09:22 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: we dont but there are some similars tought
2010-10-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: I don't know
2010-10-09 09:22 <wolfspraul> the sources are all there
2010-10-09 09:22 <wpwrak> *grin*
2010-10-09 09:23 <wolfspraul> there is not that much missing - BUT, the big force of gravity that would clean this up and make it easily accessible to others does not exist
2010-10-09 09:23 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (patent-free) okay, stiff competition :)
2010-10-09 09:23 <wolfspraul> the 'SIE target maintainer'
2010-10-09 09:23 <wolfspraul> does not exist
2010-10-09 09:23 <kristianpaul> ok..
2010-10-09 09:23 <wolfspraul> this is also not helped by very few people having the board
2010-10-09 09:23 <wolfspraul> 95% of which are in Colombia
2010-10-09 09:24 <kristianpaul> .D
2010-10-09 09:24 <wolfspraul> it's definitely not the commit rights into openwrt-xburst that stops it
2010-10-09 09:24 <kristianpaul> i have a word for that is "mess"
2010-10-09 09:24 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yeah that page is great, isn't it?
2010-10-09 09:24 <wolfspraul> I think Jon wrote it after some lengthy discussions with me.
2010-10-09 09:25 <kristianpaul> patent-free great :)
2010-10-09 09:25 <wolfspraul> we were both exhausted. in my case that translated to 'sleep', in his case I guess he managed to squeeze this out of his fingers before getting drunk or so.
2010-10-09 09:25 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:25 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: it's very to the point on the motivation. alas, a bit light on the practical implications
2010-10-09 09:25 <wolfspraul> yeah come on. time is limited. I'm no lawyer, cannot charge anybody for my words.
2010-10-09 09:25 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> anyway it's the best/most Qi has managed to write up on the subject so far
2010-10-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> maybe you can leave it as an intro
2010-10-09 09:26 <wolfspraul> I still like it.
2010-10-09 09:28 <wpwrak> hmm, its scope is broader than the policy. the policy is only about avoiding trouble with other people's patents.
2010-10-09 09:28 <wpwrak> "patent-free" is mainly about the use of patents on the qi-hw side
2010-10-09 09:29 <wolfspraul> does this mean the policy will get even longer before it says what the current text already says?
2010-10-09 09:29 <wolfspraul> (just joking)
2010-10-09 09:29 <wolfspraul> you asked for my feedback. my feedback is the text is great, add it to that page, and if you ask me - leave the current 2 lines on that page as an intro or somehow merged into your text somewhere.
2010-10-09 09:30 <wpwrak> it woud have to get longer to cover that stuff at the same level of detail as well :-(
2010-10-09 09:30 <wolfspraul> let's just upload it now, merge with the existing 2 lines in a smart way, and done
2010-10-09 09:30 <wolfspraul> we can polish / extend this over time
2010-10-09 09:31 <wolfspraul> the important thing is to clearly communicate to newcomers or interested people what we collectively believe in
2010-10-09 09:31 <wpwrak> but i think it's two completely different audiences anyway. one is for those who wonder if they/we should patent something. the other is something anyone placing public content on qi-hw should be aware of
2010-10-09 09:31 <wolfspraul> could be even more motivations to read this
2010-10-09 09:32 <wolfspraul> "virtual warfare over an artificial problem"
2010-10-09 09:32 <wolfspraul> he :-)
2010-10-09 09:33 <wpwrak> it's more like patent philosophy vs. appropriate use of the public qi-hw infrastructure
2010-10-09 09:33 <kristianpaul> arggg carlos !!
2010-10-09 09:34 <kristianpaul> (chatting privatelly)
2010-10-09 09:34 <wpwrak> so i wouldn't mix the two. too distant. the patent-free text is for the legislative, the policy for the executive. don't make the cops read works contemplating the human condition. at least not on the job ;-)
2010-10-09 09:35 <wpwrak> (virtual warfare) that's a nice one :)
2010-10-09 09:36 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: well ok let's translate to reality. the policy needs to go into the wiki. if you want a separate page just create one.
2010-10-09 09:36 <wolfspraul> let's just get this text online then it can start its life.
2010-10-09 09:36 <wolfspraul> no?
2010-10-09 09:37 <wpwrak> alright. i can put a link to patent-free. something in the sense of "we don't like patents [link] but we have to play by the rules."
2010-10-09 09:37 <wolfspraul> basically you say one text is about what we are trying to achieve (around patents). the other one is about how we are going to achieve it.
2010-10-09 09:38 <wolfspraul> what we are trying to achieve is to have the strongest, highest performing, most innovative, yet 100% patent-free hardware
2010-10-09 09:38 <wolfspraul> and how we are going to achieve it is documented in the patent policy
2010-10-09 09:38 <wolfspraul> correct?
2010-10-09 09:38 <wpwrak> even less. patent-free is a little about what we're trying to achieve and more about what part we plan to play in the patent system.
2010-10-09 09:39 <wolfspraul> yeah
2010-10-09 09:39 <wolfspraul> none
2010-10-09 09:39 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:39 <wpwrak> the policy is about what rules apply for content on qi-hw.
2010-10-09 09:39 <wolfspraul> just let us know what we need to take out, and for how long
2010-10-09 09:39 <wolfspraul> we focus on innovations elsewhere
2010-10-09 09:40 <wpwrak> the patent policy doesn't cover areas like whether we should apply for patent, how we should disseminate our prior art, how we should respond to patents covering out prior art, how else we can help fight patents, and so on.
2010-10-09 09:41 <wolfspraul> fair enough
2010-10-09 09:41 <wpwrak> on the other hand, the policy could be extended to cover other areas of IP. it's basically the guideslines for how a contributor to qi-hw should behave to avoid getting others (qi-hw, distributors) in trouble.
2010-10-09 09:41 <wolfspraul> we would need community members that are passionate about these things and start acting on those issues
2010-10-09 09:42 <wolfspraul> afaik we don't have them right now
2010-10-09 09:42 <wolfspraul> well I think any text needs to be reasonably specific otherwise we are wasting everybodys time
2010-10-09 09:42 <wolfspraul> so it should be about 'patents', and about 'mp3/h.264/mpeg4', just as you did
2010-10-09 09:42 <wolfspraul> your text is great
2010-10-09 09:43 <wolfspraul> why don't you just upload it then we have a base...
2010-10-09 09:43 <wpwrak> one is clearly for activists. those who choose to simply ignore patents as much as possible don't need to read "patent-free" and any proactive recommendations that may get added to it.
2010-10-09 09:44 <wpwrak> the other is for everyone. road rules. spitting on the street allowed in our village, but please use a toilet for the rest.
2010-10-09 09:45 <wpwrak> (my text) there are a few questions in there, in square brackets. any comments on these ?
2010-10-09 09:45 <wolfspraul> oh
2010-10-09 09:45 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:45 <wolfspraul> I need some valium or so to actually read every word.
2010-10-09 09:46 <wpwrak> particularly, the one on "planet"
2010-10-09 09:46 <wpwrak> the others are more editorial
2010-10-09 09:46 <wolfspraul> planet?
2010-10-09 09:46 <wolfspraul> one sec
2010-10-09 09:46 <wpwrak> yeah, writing that stuff does get you angry, doesn't it :) i just HAD to write that last section to let off steam :)
2010-10-09 09:47 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: i giveup with carlos, sorry :)
2010-10-09 09:47 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: let us know the words you used :)
2010-10-09 09:47 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: (pues bueno..)
2010-10-09 09:48 <kristianpaul> chao !
2010-10-09 09:48 <kristianpaul> thats it ;)
2010-10-09 09:49 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: what does that mean?
2010-10-09 09:49 <wpwrak> i think "shrug. bye then"
2010-10-09 09:50 <kristianpaul> ;)
2010-10-09 09:51 <wolfspraul> the planet...
2010-10-09 09:51 <wolfspraul> well since the policy is for people to guide them on actions, ok, maybe it's similar to irc
2010-10-09 09:52 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Microsoft-ruestet-sich-gegen-Smartphone-Patentklagen-1104882.html
2010-10-09 09:52 <wolfspraul> if you are hosting a blog that is syndicated in the planet, and you are posting instructions that infringe, the qi-hardware web admins need to censor your post from the archives
2010-10-09 09:53 <wolfspraul> if you do it frequently/all the time, the qi web admins may remove your blog from the planet
2010-10-09 09:53 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (planet) the thing is, planet re-publishes content of others who may not even know that we're using their stuff.
2010-10-09 09:53 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: okay, so edit after the fact
2010-10-09 09:53 <wpwrak> that works
2010-10-09 09:53 <wolfspraul> btw, the planet html page itself has no archive, but entries are visible for 1-2 months or so
2010-10-09 09:53 <wolfspraul> but then we have 2 mailing lists (rss2email), which also have archives
2010-10-09 09:53 <wolfspraul> but anyway
2010-10-09 09:54 <wolfspraul> that is all the problem of the qi admins
2010-10-09 09:54 <wolfspraul> because we want to say to manufacturers or distributors that we are keeping our technology in such a state that if those guys manufacture or sell the resulting devices, the chances of someone claiming infringement of their patents are very low
2010-10-09 09:55 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: of course, same on the list or irc
2010-10-09 09:55 <wolfspraul> we still have the concept of freedom of speech
2010-10-09 09:55 <wolfspraul> that's a 'passing' conversation
2010-10-09 09:55 <wolfspraul> the difference is if someone archives that, and keeps it available for others to reuse
2010-10-09 09:56 <wolfspraul> that someone cannot just claim 'freedom of speech' anything, in fact it wasn't even that someone who spoke
2010-10-09 09:56 <wolfspraul> so why keep the archives?
2010-10-09 09:56 <wolfspraul> TO INFRINGE!
2010-10-09 09:56 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-10-09 09:57 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: well I tried to understand what you asked for, and why the conversation ended.
2010-10-09 09:57 <wpwrak> so you'd say also the mailing list should be treated as being as ephemeral as IRC ?
2010-10-09 09:57 <wolfspraul> and how can we now help you?
2010-10-09 09:57 <wpwrak> or a little less ?
2010-10-09 09:57 <wolfspraul> ephemeral? wait I need to look this up...
2010-10-09 09:57 <wpwrak> volatile, not lasting
2010-10-09 09:57 <wpwrak> "vergaenglich" :)
2010-10-09 09:57 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-10-09 09:58 <wolfspraul> from the perspective of a patent owner there is no difference between an irc log and a mailing list archive
2010-10-09 09:58 <wolfspraul> it's text, hosted on a server, server is run/paid for by abc
2010-10-09 09:58 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: iwas a talk about, why you this thet should do it and not you..
2010-10-09 09:58 <kristianpaul> s/this/think
2010-10-09 09:58 <kristianpaul> s/thet/they
2010-10-09 09:59 <wpwrak> good that the irc logs are being archived. that can serve as proof for due diligence ;-)
2010-10-09 09:59 <wolfspraul> if someone posts a mail to the mailing list, with instructions/links, then the qi admins have to remove this mail, or parts of it, from the archives
2010-10-09 09:59 <wolfspraul> that's our service to the copyleft hardware community, to keep the copyleft hardware manufacturable and sellable with small risk of successful patent infringement claims
2010-10-09 09:59 <wolfspraul> I wouldn't think that makes the mailing list 'ephemeral'
2010-10-09 09:59 <wolfspraul> the issue is about WHAT you post
2010-10-09 09:59 <wolfspraul> I mean we would also remove spam
2010-10-09 10:00 <wolfspraul> and we also remove stuff that will make it possible for patent holders to launch a successful patent infringement claim
2010-10-09 10:00 <wpwrak> mailing lists get replicated more than irc goes. e.g., each subscriber implicitly gets a copy, gmane may have qi-hw, etc.
2010-10-09 10:00 <wolfspraul> no problem
2010-10-09 10:00 <wolfspraul> gmane is someone else anyway
2010-10-09 10:00 <wolfspraul> the issue is only about what is hosted on qi-hardware.com servers
2010-10-09 10:01 <wolfspraul> the copies that are sent to people don't matter either
2010-10-09 10:01 <wolfspraul> it is an undue burden that the qi admins would have to review every mail before it is being sent to the list
2010-10-09 10:02 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: ok but what is your problem, and how will you solve it now?
2010-10-09 10:02 <wpwrak> that's one thing. violation of usage policy. but can the usage policy itself allow such things then ?
2010-10-09 10:02 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-10-09 10:02 <wolfspraul> puh
2010-10-09 10:02 <wpwrak> :)
2010-10-09 10:02 <wolfspraul> you have to drill into every last corner
2010-10-09 10:02 <wolfspraul> I don't know.
2010-10-09 10:03 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: was pity, (missing password) so i think i know what do to to reflash the SIE and make some changes i need to the FPGA
2010-10-09 10:03 <wolfspraul> I don't think we need to, or even would have the authority to, restrict someones rights to speak freely.
2010-10-09 10:03 <wpwrak>  /n the_sadist (-:C
2010-10-09 10:03 <wolfspraul> they will just do it.
2010-10-09 10:03 <wolfspraul> the policy doesn't need to pickup this fight
2010-10-09 10:03 <wolfspraul> it can jsut say "not tolerated and will be removed from archives"
2010-10-09 10:05 <wolfspraul> the policy neither needs to encourage people to use the list to distribute infringement stuff, nor does it need to install any sort of gag order, which couldn't be enforced anyway (we already say we remove such stuff from the archives)
2010-10-09 10:05 <wpwrak> hmm. i can see how to put the cya angle. but it would then fall short of giving people specific guidelines for what they should and shouldn't do.
2010-10-09 10:05 <wpwrak> hmm
2010-10-09 10:05 <wolfspraul> ok let's talk about friendliness then
2010-10-09 10:06 <wolfspraul> if you want to be friendly to the project, do not use project resources to spread information about how to get mp3 to play, mpeg4, h.264
2010-10-09 10:06 <wolfspraul> it doesn't help us
2010-10-09 10:06 <wpwrak> alright. that's good.
2010-10-09 10:06 <wolfspraul> because we cannot include such functionality anyway, and in fact we need to constantly cleanup behind out chatty community members :-)
2010-10-09 10:07 <wolfspraul> behind our
2010-10-09 10:08 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: do you think you are able to create the full image you have on your SIE from source?
2010-10-09 10:08 <wolfspraul> or is it entirely undocumented/messy?
2010-10-09 10:08 <kristianpaul> well not so messy atl all
2010-10-09 10:09 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yes sure, the source actually is same Ben image :)
2010-10-09 10:09 <kristianpaul> replace root_fs and thats it
2010-10-09 10:09 <kristianpaul> and uboot too, but i dont need reflash uboot
2010-10-09 10:09 <wolfspraul> the kernel is not the same
2010-10-09 10:09 <kristianpaul> i think is, or carlos said that
2010-10-09 10:10 <wolfspraul> ok I'm a software guy, when I say 'same' I mean md5sum(ben_uImage) == md5sum(sie_uImage)
2010-10-09 10:10 <kristianpaul> hehe
2010-10-09 10:10 <wolfspraul> I have massive doubts that that is the case.
2010-10-09 10:10 <wolfspraul> massive as in 99.99999%
2010-10-09 10:11 <wolfspraul> the only .000001% only to save Carlos face :-)
2010-10-09 10:11 <wolfspraul> but seriously, no, there must be changes
2010-10-09 10:11 <wolfspraul> so if you reflash, be careful
2010-10-09 10:11 <wolfspraul> you may end up with a system that won't work anymore, and then getting it back to work may be hard
2010-10-09 10:11 <kristianpaul> well any way if carlos desided to move to something more colabortive will be SIE as a fork from Ben as in sofware and hardware (wich is right now)
2010-10-09 10:12 <wolfspraul> I think the SIE target maintainer (in OpenWrt) needs to come from outside of Bogota
2010-10-09 10:12 <wpwrak> wouldn't having all the SIE stuff nicely out in the open be a prerequisite for selling it to others than carlos' group ? :)
2010-10-09 10:12 <kristianpaul> we are chatting again about create a project in indefero
2010-10-09 10:12 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: it is all there, just messy (imo)
2010-10-09 10:12 <wolfspraul> it's not about lack of motivation to do so, it's lack of skills
2010-10-09 10:13 <kristianpaul> idependent from uboot,linux,root fs  frm the current one
2010-10-09 10:13 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: (skills) agred
2010-10-09 10:13 <wpwrak> ah, that's harder. but it also seems to be in part poor practice - you mentioned patches sent by private mail and such.
2010-10-09 10:13 <kristianpaul> carlos students are so vage mostly so nobody  besides carlos to support sofware side.
2010-10-09 10:13 <wolfspraul> sure
2010-10-09 10:13 <kristianpaul> thast why i ends in privatelly mails to qi people ;)
2010-10-09 10:13 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes that too.
2010-10-09 10:14 <kristianpaul> s/i/he
2010-10-09 10:14 <wolfspraul> the pieces are all there
2010-10-09 10:14 <wolfspraul> but not in one place, not clean
2010-10-09 10:14 <wolfspraul> also there are too few boards now
2010-10-09 10:14 <wolfspraul> my hope was that David would get 5 or so, and me another 5 or so
2010-10-09 10:14 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: sure not in Bogota for sure
2010-10-09 10:14 <kristianpaul> see what i dont live there ;)
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> there are plenty of people that are interested and able to cleanup the software (which is not that much work since the Ben SW is in great shape, I think)
2010-10-09 10:15 <wpwrak> student work is generally volatile :) PhD students have a long-term interest but all the rest is hard to integrate into such projects. occasionally, someone has good enough skills to get started quickly and it thorough enough to make something stick, but it's not very common
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> but now I have 0 boards, and David has 1
2010-10-09 10:15 <kristianpaul> all the hacks are in the curret nn-usb-fpga
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> because the V2 yields were a little lower than hoped, and Carlos students had priority (and paid)
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> so I cannot help with the maintainer thing either
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> with 0 boards :-)
2010-10-09 10:15 <wolfspraul> and David has 1
2010-10-09 10:16 <wolfspraul> that won't change until a V3 run which may be months out
2010-10-09 10:16 <kristianpaul> but more features for SIE will come, so it shows definelly that SIE need a new project :)
2010-10-09 10:16 <kristianpaul> software porject*
2010-10-09 10:16 <wpwrak> adam has given up on fixing the remaining boards ?
2010-10-09 10:17 <kristianpaul> larsc: xiangfu openwrt tarjets can habdle different uboots and linux images isnt?
2010-10-09 10:17 <kristianpaul> targets*
2010-10-09 10:17 <wolfspraul> to put my words into perspective a bit, I may be too hash
2010-10-09 10:17 <wolfspraul> harsh
2010-10-09 10:18 <wolfspraul> Carlos has done a great job, all software exists, and, it is based on the Ben software which imo is in excellent shape
2010-10-09 10:18 <wolfspraul> my estimate is it would take a really skilled sw guy maybe 2 weeks to clean it all up in OpenWrt, especially if that person had some prior knowledge of OpenWrt
2010-10-09 10:18 <kristianpaul> ahap
2010-10-09 10:19 <kristianpaul> indeed
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> but for that this person would need the board, and all patches/hacks/scripts/whatnot
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> then 2 weeks, then all is perfect
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> but this step will, again imo, not happen in Bogota
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> and me and David have too few boards
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> so we are a little stuck on this
2010-10-09 10:19 <wolfspraul> eventually we find a way out :-)
2010-10-09 10:20 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes Adam has stopped, because I asked him to. it's about cost. right after the run 19 boards had problems.
2010-10-09 10:20 <larsc> best would be to get the SIE platform patch into upstream linux
2010-10-09 10:20 <wolfspraul> he fixed 9 of them, it got slower and slower.
2010-10-09 10:20 <kristianpaul> the issues i see, is openwrt able to build system that can handle different kernel confifuration even for uboot, and no afect current ben target?
2010-10-09 10:20 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: worst case you can have a uboot-sie package
2010-10-09 10:21 <kristianpaul> larsc: not posible yet, well or think so,  as more features are coming
2010-10-09 10:21 <wolfspraul> maybe even as a diff on top of the uboot-xburst? :-) don't know how flexible OpenWrt is
2010-10-09 10:21 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: so if Adam would continue fixing those 10 boards, those days would eat into Milkymist One RC2
2010-10-09 10:21 <kristianpaul> larsc: i think i wroing in the last, coming features dont care isnt?
2010-10-09 10:21 <wolfspraul> and we have 27C3 coming up
2010-10-09 10:22 <wolfspraul> I cannot take the risk. Adam already spent 5 days or so fixing the first 9 boards, and was quite exhausted at the end. The last 2 days only 1 or 2 came out of the fixing.
2010-10-09 10:22 <larsc> kristianpaul: well those could be added in later patches
2010-10-09 10:22 <wolfspraul> the remaining 10 would need serious root cause searching, to prepare for the next run. So I'm sitting on them for that purpose.
2010-10-09 10:22 <larsc> code is not frozen once upstream
2010-10-09 10:24 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (adam) okay, so he's already saturated with more important stuff. makes sense then.
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes. it's just risky with 27c3 coming.
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> I cannot let down Sebastien on this.
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> and there will always be surprises.
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> it's already tight
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> I need to move everything out of the way for that now.
2010-10-09 10:26 <wolfspraul> once the RC2 boards are made maybe Adam can go back a few days and try to fix a few more SIE
2010-10-09 10:27 <wolfspraul> maybe late November even? don't know
2010-10-09 10:27 <wolfspraul> I need to get RC2 done first
2010-10-09 10:27 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: when RC2 should be done?
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> calculate backwards from 27C3
2010-10-09 10:28 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: and the boards will be sell in 27C3?
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> 27C3 starts Dec 27
2010-10-09 10:28 <kristianpaul> or pre-oder?
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> Bearstech offered their booth
2010-10-09 10:28 <kristianpaul> i'm just curios
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> you don't want to try shipping stuff to europe on Dec 21 or so
2010-10-09 10:28 <kristianpaul> hehe
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> so they need to leave Asia no later than first week of December
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> and they need to be tested
2010-10-09 10:28 <wolfspraul> (going backwards)
2010-10-09 10:29 <wolfspraul> and we need the jtag/serial cables
2010-10-09 10:29 <wolfspraul> and power adapters
2010-10-09 10:29 <wolfspraul> and boxes
2010-10-09 10:29 <wpwrak> you have 2-3 weeks to finish the design and order the production run :)
2010-10-09 10:29 <wolfspraul> we need to be careful about customs (first shipment of anything is always risky)
2010-10-09 10:29 <wolfspraul> the SMT date needs to be scheduled
2010-10-09 10:30 <wpwrak> pcb have to be made
2010-10-09 10:30 <wolfspraul> the PCBs need to be ordered, made, received, tested
2010-10-09 10:30 <wpwrak> parts need to be ordered
2010-10-09 10:30 <wolfspraul> before that the layout house needs to go back work their way through our change list
2010-10-09 10:30 <wolfspraul> it's October 9 now
2010-10-09 10:30 <wolfspraul> does Adam have time to fix a few more SIE right now?
2010-10-09 10:30 <wolfspraul> no!
2010-10-09 10:31 <wpwrak> maybe if he can work negative hours on them :)
2010-10-09 10:31 <wolfspraul> Adam may also get sick, or, big surprise, need a few days off somewhere
2010-10-09 10:31 <wolfspraul> sometimes vendors make mistakes
2010-10-09 10:31 <wolfspraul> ship the wrong thing
2010-10-09 10:31 <wolfspraul> or apply the wrong production process, which leads to unusable pcbs
2010-10-09 10:31 <wolfspraul> or or or
2010-10-09 10:32 <wpwrak> let's hope there be no bad shipments. your schedule doesn't supprt that error or margin.
2010-10-09 10:32 <wpwrak> err, margin of error :)
2010-10-09 10:32 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I think it's still OK
2010-10-09 10:32 <wolfspraul> it's the second run
2010-10-09 10:32 <wolfspraul> number of changes is manageable
2010-10-09 10:33 <wolfspraul> many parts still in stock
2010-10-09 10:33 <wpwrak> okay if you order next week. are you that close ?
2010-10-09 10:33 <wolfspraul> but I agree this is tight and I explain it all to explain why I really cannot risk loosing days right now over SIE fixes
2010-10-09 10:33 <wpwrak> also, how about the case ?
2010-10-09 10:33 <wolfspraul> no case, gave up on that for 27C3
2010-10-09 10:33 <wolfspraul> cannot make it
2010-10-09 10:33 <wpwrak> sure sure. "adam is busy elsewhere" explains enough ;-)
2010-10-09 10:34 <wolfspraul> well I like to explain the whole picture
2010-10-09 10:34 <wolfspraul> maybe someone else wants to manufacture 10 or 20 SIE?
2010-10-09 10:34 <wpwrak> (case) maybe find some off-the shelf case that's not too horrible
2010-10-09 10:34 <wolfspraul> I could probably supply such a run with a lot of helpful material, components, etc.
2010-10-09 10:35 <wpwrak> (sie) golden delicious ? :)
2010-10-09 10:35 <wolfspraul> I will try to sneak in a few days of SIE fixing (out of those 10), when I feel those days are not on the Milkymist critical path
2010-10-09 10:35 <wolfspraul> the moment I have such days I will try to 'make' another 2-3 fully functional SIE from the 10
2010-10-09 10:36 <wolfspraul> but right now I feel the Milkymist critical path everywhere :-)
2010-10-09 10:36 <wolfspraul> logging out, n8
2010-10-09 10:37 <kristianpaul> n8
2010-10-09 12:42 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: separate conditions rather than ignoring error,  thx @werner http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b48d96a
2010-10-09 12:49 <qi-bot> [commit] Alan Post: Add my e-mail address to the copyright header. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4877e69
2010-10-09 12:50 <tuxbrain> mmm, I can ask about the cost of doing 20 Sie boards here..., maybe I need help on the right files to send to the manufacturer, what components would you sendme wolfgang and what I have to source locally
2010-10-09 12:53 <wpwrak> aisa: btw, i think the  ls $(2)  is still inconsistent with the  -d "$(2)" . if $(2) needs quoting at all, then it would need quoting also in the ls. but then, i don't know if it actually needs this or not
2010-10-09 12:54 <kristianpaul> tuxbrain: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/sakc/gerber/v2/GERBERs_SIE_V2_20100811.tar.gz < manfacture PCB first
2010-10-09 12:54 <aisa> oh!  you're right.
2010-10-09 12:54 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: while you're here, any comments on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Patent_Policy_Public_Face before i announce it on the list ?
2010-10-09 12:54 <aisa> I think that just means \"$(2)\"
2010-10-09 12:54 <wpwrak> (as request for comments for now. everybody can play policy maker here :)
2010-10-09 12:55 <aisa> testing now, but I may have to leave before I can finish.
2010-10-09 12:56 <wpwrak> aisa: not sure what degree of escaping you need, with make adding one layer of indirection. you'll have to try and (maybe) err :)
2010-10-09 12:56 <kristianpaul> tuxbrain: but as you said just wolfgang know what he will send you :)
2010-10-09 12:56 <aisa> right, #1 didn't work.
2010-10-09 12:57 <tuxbrain> ok I will ask when he reconnects
2010-10-09 12:57 <aisa> trying: '$(2)'
2010-10-09 12:57 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: reading page
2010-10-09 12:57 <aisa> that seems to have worked.
2010-10-09 12:58 <aisa> I suppose I should really test with "patches with space"
2010-10-09 12:59 <wpwrak> yes :)
2010-10-09 13:00 <aisa> because thinking about it, '$(2)' shouldn't work.
2010-10-09 13:00 <aisa> man, I thought I knew sh and makefile better than I do...
2010-10-09 13:01 <aisa> actually, it should.  $(2) is expanded by make.
2010-10-09 13:01 <aisa> and that can be single-quoted in sh.
2010-10-09 13:01 <aisa> not that it works...
2010-10-09 13:04 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: I think also worth to mention about pictures in wiki not totally free, any picture with non-comercial clause, must be avoided too
2010-10-09 13:04 <wpwrak> the $$$$ hints at there being yet another level. at least i don't normally see that sort of thing.
2010-10-09 13:05 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: so that would be the extension into copyrighted material.
2010-10-09 13:05 <tuxbrain> yeah but as you put the emepetres examples I think this example also need to be mentioned
2010-10-09 13:05 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: not sure if we should cram everything into one document (that would then be on IP, not just patents), or treat this separately
2010-10-09 13:05 <tuxbrain> ok
2010-10-09 13:06 <tuxbrain> underetand your poing
2010-10-09 13:06 <tuxbrain> point
2010-10-09 13:06 <tuxbrain> understand
2010-10-09 13:06 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: i would lean towards combining things too, but i'm not sure if i understand the matter well enough to not overlook some subtle differences :)
2010-10-09 13:06 <tuxbrain> wow that nap and your text is a bad combination for my finguers
2010-10-09 13:06 <aisa> wpwrak: I've got to go for today, but I'm testing now and will figure it out.
2010-10-09 13:06 <aisa> thank you for reminding me.
2010-10-09 13:07 <wpwrak> let's do it like this: for now, i'll just cover patents. i'll mention that general IP (copyright, trademarks, etc.) is similar and that it may or may not make sense to include it, too.
2010-10-09 13:07 <wpwrak> aisa: always happy to heckle ;-)
2010-10-09 13:08 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: i'm also a little afraid that, if i make it too long, nobody will read it ;-)
2010-10-09 13:09 <tuxbrain> also why instead of a link to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Patent-free just c&p this as intro
2010-10-09 13:11 <tuxbrain> a more agressive summary should be we piss of on pattent stuff, we want this fucking crap as far away from us as posible.
2010-10-09 13:11 <wpwrak> two reasons: a) patent-free has a different focus. it describes what we do with OUR original ideas, while the patent policy describes what we do with idea others have removed from the public domain.
2010-10-09 13:12 <wpwrak> b) the patent-free page may get extended, which would make the thing unwieldy.
2010-10-09 13:12 <tuxbrain> ok I think my sentence include both cases :)
2010-10-09 13:13 <tuxbrain> ok again understand your point
2010-10-09 13:13 <wpwrak> after all, the goal is to have guidelines people will actually follow. not a scholarly work on theory and practice of intellectual property legalese, to be read by lawyers only.
2010-10-09 13:15 <wpwrak> (aggressive summary) yeah. i'm thinking of finding a way to put "we prefer lawyers to be starved and too weak to fight, not bursting with confidence and eager to make the world quiver before their powers" somewhere.
2010-10-09 13:15 <wpwrak> (piss of on) it's just "piss on" :)
2010-10-09 13:16 <wpwrak> alas, that's not an option. well, if YOU decide not to worry about patents anymore, i'm sure you can be accommodated ;-)
2010-10-09 13:16 <tuxbrain> I hope one day we can have a lawyer in the community that can take care of this stuff, until now your guide is the best think I read about , so go for it
2010-10-09 13:16 <wpwrak> it may just be a somewhat hazardous decision
2010-10-09 13:17 <tuxbrain> I don't say I dont take care, I want them far away from me so it implies I take care of they doesn't being close :P
2010-10-09 13:18 <tuxbrain> time to time I still had nighmares of nanos stopped at customs, brrrrr, terrifing
2010-10-09 13:20 <wpwrak> ah, "piss on" usually means to disregard. see definition 2 on http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=piss%20on
2010-10-09 13:20 <wpwrak> yeah, if patent holders are the nazis, customs are their gestapo
2010-10-09 13:26 <wpwrak> tuxbrain: to sing along with, "we don't want no confiscation. we don't want no patent trolls. hey, sisvel, leave our bens alone !"
2010-10-09 13:27 <wpwrak> well, s/sisvel/lawyers/ and we could use it fairly universally. naturally, violating pink floyd's copyright :)
2010-10-09 13:27 <rafa> wpwrak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Patent_Policy_Public_Face  :( .. it is going deeper and deeper ..
2010-10-09 13:29 <rafa> wpwrak: I really do not like the whole thing. I need a while to read and read to understand well.. and still.. it is going deeper and deeper because just in few places around the world could have problems with that, and then the rest of us needs to follow some guidelines, ways, or whatever.
2010-10-09 13:31 <wpwrak> rafa: alas, the places where you have trouble are those where they project can get money. if the main market was south america, you'd see the same thing happen here. IP laws are fairly global :-(
2010-10-09 13:31 <rafa> wpwrak: from time to time that all sucks for me and I feel that it is really a annoying thing which is not directly related with the rest of users/people. it is just one thing useful for qi and resellers.. which does both worlds hard to live together. I mean, I think that patents sucks of course, and if mp4/mp3.. whatever does
2010-10-09 13:32 <wpwrak> rafa: without qi-hw and resellers, there are no bens and no users. so it pretty much does affect them ...
2010-10-09 13:32 <rafa> problems to nice projects like qi and family then I really would try to help.. but it is going so deep to me understand why I should follow some things to collaborate
2010-10-09 13:33 <rafa> wpwrak: without qi and resellers there are no bens: I understand that.. but still, it is not my fault and that will not affect users at all surely :(
2010-10-09 13:33 <wpwrak> rafa: well, what can i say. these threats are not imagined. this sort of confiscation at customs has happened to openmoko.
2010-10-09 13:34 <wpwrak> rafa: (well, to one of their resellers - because openmoko had codecs on the device)
2010-10-09 13:36 <wpwrak> rafa: you could also view this as an opportunity - each time you avoid using a patent, you shrink the market for them :)
2010-10-09 13:37 <wpwrak> rafa: particularly if avoiding the patent means that you coe up with an alternative that achieves the same result. e.g., think of GIF. that patent was completely devalued by the avoidance of GIF files and the development of alternative and better file formats.
2010-10-09 13:38 <rafa> wpwrak: :( yeah.. but I just do easy tasks just for fun.. and nobody is going to convert all his/her mp3 files to ogg.. still if here in this channel there 1 to 5 guys who did that.. the rest will not do that, just to give a bad example
2010-10-09 13:38 <rafa> there 1 to 5 = there are maybe 1 to 5
2010-10-09 13:38 <tuxbrain> has all his mp3 converted to ogg
2010-10-09 13:38 <rafa> 1 guy so far :)
2010-10-09 13:39 <rafa> well, maybe more, just 1 who already confirmed it :)
2010-10-09 13:39 <tuxbrain> as easy as one order of a shell
2010-10-09 13:40 <rafa> tuxbrain: yes of course, becuase all of the mp3 users have come surely from internet they will need to put that order into crontab or something similar
2010-10-09 13:40 <rafa> because they will get more mp3 from time to time
2010-10-09 13:45 <tuxbrain> wpwrak: it's not copyright infringiment is a tribute :) I think I will record this one day heheeheh or at least my nightmares now will have a new backgroud music  "we don't want no confiscations... papara papapa papara we"
2010-10-09 13:49 <tuxbrain> c u later, guys, rafa, I see you a little low today, common!!! it is mostly a game, some of us has bet money others bet time, we are just finding strategies to win, all toguether, we are a team, users, developers, resellers and manufacturers don't give up in the boring part of the game, we will take care of it , just play the part you like also you are not tied to play if you don't find it fun, but be sure I will miss you :), btw send me the ogv pl
2010-10-09 13:49 <tuxbrain> ayer before you leave :P
2010-10-09 13:50 <kyak> wpwrak: thanks for the hints; of course i have swap enabled on uSD, and i also doubt that it's drive performance that is a bottle neck
2010-10-09 13:51 <kyak> though you are right, the speed of NAND could've been better
2010-10-09 13:57 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: rafa had to go to the desert and he'll miss the nice barbecue we'll have at my place tomorrow. no surprise he's unhappy :)
2010-10-09 13:57 <wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: (tribute) yeah ! ;-)
2010-10-09 15:23 <tuxbrain_away> uff seems that finally we have found a good config of get rid of spam at drupal.... spammers (here are a lot of bad and ugly words that my daughter must not hear)
2010-10-09 15:30 <wpwrak> wolfgang: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2010/whos-suing-whom-in-the-telecoms-trade/
2010-10-09 15:32 <wpwrak> kyak: i'm not quite sure whether NAND or uSD is faster. by the bus width and bus type, NAND should win (8 vs. 4 bit, local bus vs. external bus). but then i've heard that uSD was faster. not sure how much overhead UBIFS adds.
2010-10-09 15:34 <wpwrak> rafa: (mp3/ogg recoding) how about a script that runs on the pc that uploads mp3s to the ben and recodes on the fly ?
2010-10-09 16:00 <kyak> aisa: there are a lot of packages not requiring patches, and during make only a notification is generated
2010-10-09 16:00 <kyak> i don't know why you decided so necessarily to get rid of it
2010-10-09 16:04 <aisa> kyak: the principle I was using was to remove noise to make revelvant lines easier to see.
2010-10-09 16:04 <aisa> this turned out to be a two or three bugs.
2010-10-09 16:05 <aisa> one was an error/warning for a condition that is normal.
2010-10-09 16:05 <aisa> two was the code being executed when it was not intended.
2010-10-09 16:05 <aisa> three is still not fixed, which is that the macro expansion is not protected from being expanded again by the shell.
2010-10-09 16:06 <kyak> not following you here..
2010-10-09 16:06 <kyak> bugs where?
2010-10-09 16:06 <aisa> I'm not sure what you were asking about either.
2010-10-09 16:06 <aisa> what does this: 'aisa: there are a lot of packages not requiring patches, and'
2010-10-09 16:06 <aisa> refer to?
2010-10-09 16:07 <kyak> are you Alan Post?
2010-10-09 16:07 <aisa> I am.
2010-10-09 16:08 <kyak> then i was referring to your "no warning when there is no patches directory" patch
2010-10-09 16:08 <aisa> ah, the "warning" in this case is an error message from 'ls'
2010-10-09 16:08 <aisa> not a warning that was intentional.
2010-10-09 16:08 <aisa> in fact, the code tried to not have the error be there.
2010-10-09 16:09 <aisa> but it was written in such a way that the feature did not work.
2010-10-09 16:09 <kyak> can you specify under which conditions you've seen such error message?
2010-10-09 16:09 <aisa> My choice of wording re: warning was to state that the code still worked.
2010-10-09 16:09 <aisa> make package/lojban-wordlists/clean package/lojban-wordlists/compile V=99
2010-10-09 16:10 <aisa> Namely, when a package has no ./patches directory.
2010-10-09 16:10 <kyak> then again
2010-10-09 16:10 <kyak> as i said above
2010-10-09 16:10 <kyak> there are a lot packages without patches directory
2010-10-09 16:10 <kyak> and i never seen an error message
2010-10-09 16:10 <kyak> why?
2010-10-09 16:11 <aisa> I can't speculate, you can look at the code and tell me ;-)
2010-10-09 16:11 <aisa> I'm not sure what you're driving at.  What are you intending for this conversation?
2010-10-09 16:11 <aisa> Can you tell me what you want?
2010-10-09 16:12 <kyak> just trying to understand
2010-10-09 16:12 <kyak> why you removed that warning
2010-10-09 16:13 <aisa> Have you looked at the patch?
2010-10-09 16:13 <wpwrak> kyak: the code is quite clearly inconsistent in itself. whether it's actually necessary to worry about the directory being absent is a different question :)
2010-10-09 16:13 <aisa> the original code did not work.
2010-10-09 16:13 <aisa> it wanted to test for the existence of the directory,
2010-10-09 16:13 <kyak> always worked for me
2010-10-09 16:13 <aisa> and then if it existed, run ls ./patches | wc -l
2010-10-09 16:13 <aisa> but,
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> no matter the first condition,
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> the ls was always run.
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> so the patch corrects this,
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> such that ls in only run if the first condition is true.
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> I promise this change works for you too.
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> and it works for me.
2010-10-09 16:14 <wpwrak> aisa: perhaps if there's a package that exhibits this, kyak can see for himself
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> I mentioned one earlier.
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> lojban-wordlists
2010-10-09 16:14 <aisa> the command:
2010-10-09 16:15 <kyak> if there is patches directory, with the patches inside, it applies them. If there is no such directory, there is a warning.. That's how it worked
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> make package/lojban-wordlists/clean package/lojban-wordlists/compile V=99
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> will demonstrate the error,
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> if you revert or don't update tracking_backfire
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> if you want the warning,
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> we should add it on purpose.
2010-10-09 16:15 <aisa> the warning was a side effect of bad code.
2010-10-09 16:16 <kyak> but it didn't throw an error or stop your build process?
2010-10-09 16:17 <kyak> because you said there was some error rather then warning
2010-10-09 16:17 <aisa> ok: ls had an error.
2010-10-09 16:17 <wpwrak> kyak: if you look at the code, you'll see that it explicitly tests for the directory. this would only serve a purpose if the objective was to avoid the error/warning. otherwise, just run ls and it'll produce empty output as well
2010-10-09 16:17 <aisa> the makefile neither cares, checks for, nor detects that ls had an error.
2010-10-09 16:17 <aisa> so the process continues.
2010-10-09 16:18 <aisa> kyak: I think this would all be much clearer if you looked at the code and we spoke about it.
2010-10-09 16:18 <kyak> ok, i got your point
2010-10-09 16:18 <aisa> rather than abstractly talking about what it may or may not be doing.
2010-10-09 16:18 <kyak> aisa: i see the code
2010-10-09 16:19 <kyak> it's ok :)
2010-10-09 16:19 <aisa> What about the code don't you understand?
2010-10-09 16:19 <wpwrak> aisa: that's a nasty question for this kind of rather subtle code ;-)
2010-10-09 16:20 <aisa> heh.  Indeed, I'm still working on one of the bugs, because there is a piece I don't understand.
2010-10-09 16:20 <aisa> What I'm really driving at, however,
2010-10-09 16:20 <aisa> is if we all understand the code,
2010-10-09 16:20 <aisa> I need to know what the code isn't doing that we would like it to.
2010-10-09 16:23 <wpwrak> aisa: i think your interpretation (that leads to the fix of avoiding the error) is plausible. another possibility would be that someone wanted the error (as a warning) but didn't trust the ls ... wc -l to yield zero in this case. occam's razor favours the former interpretation :)
2010-10-09 16:25 <aisa> ha!  Indeed, I'd much rather see a warning generated by make.  Though I'd rather see no warning at all because the condition is normal.
2010-10-09 16:26 <wpwrak> aisa: yes. don't warn if it's a quiet, normal day. no need for a Homeland Security Advisory System that's always at yellow :)
2010-10-09 16:27 <wpwrak> like someone wrote, "yellow is the new green" :)
2010-10-09 16:44 <aisa> kyak: I'm sorry I'm so grumpy, I am working on too many things at once today :-(
2010-10-09 16:50 <kyak> aisa: no problem, i just misunderstood you
2010-10-09 16:51 <aisa> Next time I'm confusing I'll endeavor to not be impatient about it, too.
2010-10-09 16:52 <kyak> and next time i'm drunk i'll not show up on IRC (i always say that) :)
2010-10-09 16:54 <aisa> LOL
2010-10-09 16:54 <aisa> what is your name?  Either your wiki username or commit name?
2010-10-09 16:55 <kyak> it's kyak
2010-10-09 16:56 <aisa> oh looksie, it only took me needing to look at the list.
2010-10-09 16:57 <kyak> yeah, the same name in the list
2010-10-09 16:57 <aisa> is it pronounced ki-yahk, kuyook, or exactly like it is spelled?
2010-10-09 16:58 <kyak> ehm, it used to be a random and unique combination of letters, no intended for reading out load :) but i guess it's the same as kayak, the boat
2010-10-09 17:11 <qi-bot> [commit] Juan64Bits: Connecting some FPGA's free GPIO http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/874a01d
2010-10-09 18:52 <qi-bot> [commit] carlos: Removing battery circuit http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/9da569a
2010-10-09 20:22 <wolfspraul> aisa: that patch looks like your first patch, no?
2010-10-09 20:22 <wolfspraul> did you see Werner's final version here in irc?
2010-10-09 20:23 <wolfspraul> aisa: ah sorry, wrong! it is the new version, just not with the last ideas werner had around -z or so
2010-10-09 20:23 <wolfspraul> one sec let me find it in the logs
2010-10-09 20:23 <aisa> ah, correct.  I haven't incorporated that yet.
2010-10-09 20:23 <aisa> I got stuck on the idea of getting the quoting right,
2010-10-09 20:23 <aisa> and I have been doing non-computer work most of the day.
2010-10-09 20:24 <wolfspraul> aisa: @if [ -d "$(2)" ] && [ "`ls $(2)`" ]; then \
2010-10-09 20:24 <aisa> (I'm walking away again for a bit, I'll be around variably.
2010-10-09 20:24 <aisa> I think that is the current version, missing the wc -l.
2010-10-09 20:24 <wolfspraul> I think that was Werner's last idea
2010-10-09 20:25 <wolfspraul> it's all fine now, we don't need to waste time over every last quote :-)
2010-10-09 20:36 <wpwrak> my last idea is a use i also only spotted today. shell programming is full of surprises ;-)
2010-10-09 23:05 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, two quick PR ideas: 1) next 1000 units, with the new stuff that's getting bundled. it's low-profile, but someone may pick it up.
2010-10-09 23:06 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: 2) when jlime is ready for inclusion, plus dual-boot is there as well, then you can start shipping bens with both options. (well, after passing a zen moment of reflashing :) that'll also be a newsworthy moment.
2010-10-09 23:07 <wpwrak> (that is, ben shipping with jlime dual-boot. not necessarily your reflash session ;-)
2010-10-09 23:10 <wolfspraul> yes I agree but this is all a lot of work
2010-10-09 23:10 <wolfspraul> I think I will focus on the Milkymist launch at 27C3 next
2010-10-09 23:10 <wpwrak> worthwhile work, i'd hope :)
2010-10-09 23:11 <wpwrak> why not try to make something out of the 2nd 1kunits ? see how it goes
2010-10-09 23:11 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Upcoming_news
2010-10-09 23:11 <wpwrak> you may find things that help with the mm launch as well
2010-10-09 23:11 <wolfspraul> I've started to write down random thoughts on the milkymist release
2010-10-09 23:12 <wolfspraul> haven't even talked with Sebastien yet, nothing can go in there that he doesn't agree with
2010-10-09 23:12 <wolfspraul> it takes time to craft a strong message
2010-10-09 23:12 <wolfspraul> I have started to contact Lattice about a quote, I think that would be nice
2010-10-09 23:12 <wolfspraul> but I need to ask 5-10 people for a quote, it always depends on whom you talk to, whether they 'get it', see mutual benefit, etc. etc.
2010-10-09 23:13 <wpwrak> well, you still have a bit of time for that. so that;s probably safe
2010-10-09 23:13 <wolfspraul> 2 months
2010-10-09 23:13 <wolfspraul> not much
2010-10-09 23:13 <wolfspraul> getting a quote is hard work :-)
2010-10-09 23:13 <wolfspraul> there is a PR department on the other side
2010-10-09 23:13 <wolfspraul> I remember one time it took 6 months, of constant back and forth, to get a quote from Sony-Ericsson for a press release
2010-10-09 23:13 <wpwrak> they'll also want to find out who you are. they wouldn't want to support the local taliban-nazi-pedophile club, for example ;-)
2010-10-09 23:14 <wolfspraul> so we see
2010-10-09 23:14 <wolfspraul> but I appreciate your comment
2010-10-09 23:14 <wolfspraul> yes, if we had a better/more efficient news machine, a press release about the first 1k being sold, and the second 1k being manufactured is not bad
2010-10-09 23:14 <wolfspraul> there is bigger crap that gets broadcast
2010-10-09 23:15 <wolfspraul> and another one about Jlime/OpenWrt dual-booting is also not bad
2010-10-09 23:15 <wpwrak> not sure if you even want to define a "target market"
2010-10-09 23:15 <wolfspraul> well it's full of question marks
2010-10-09 23:15 <wolfspraul> I haven't even sent my 1k manufacturing report email yet
2010-10-09 23:15 <wolfspraul> yet alone a fully crafted press release
2010-10-09 23:15 <wolfspraul> let alone
2010-10-09 23:15 <wpwrak> i'd say, if you think you can do one about the 2nd k without sacrificing anything more important, then do it
2010-10-09 23:16 <wpwrak> see, so it's still news ;-)
2010-10-09 23:16 <wpwrak> sometimes, procrastination works in your favour :)
2010-10-09 23:16 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: hey there, good to see you here! :-)
2010-10-09 23:16 <wpwrak> anyway, i'll be afk for a bit
2010-10-09 23:17 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: check this http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xue/layout
2010-10-09 23:17 <wolfspraul> they are working...
2010-10-09 23:25 <andres-calderon> Hola wpwrak
2010-10-09 23:40 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: he just went out a bit :-)
2010-10-09 23:48 <andres-calderon>   I think I will use this type of connector : http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=S9044-ND
2010-10-09 23:49 <andres-calderon> 50 pins, pitch 2mm
2010-10-09 23:49 <andres-calderon> They seem appropriate?
2010-10-09 23:50 <wolfspraul> I heard 100mil (2.54mm) is more common than 2mm
2010-10-09 23:50 <wolfspraul> this connector is for what? expansion header?
2010-10-09 23:50 <andres-calderon> yes, GPIOs
2010-10-09 23:51 <wolfspraul> oh I see, 2 rows of 25
2010-10-09 23:51 <andres-calderon> 2.54mm x 25 pos = 63.5mm
2010-10-09 23:51 <wolfspraul> maybe we should then include a cable that has that connector on one side, and individual wires coming out on the other side
2010-10-09 23:51 <wolfspraul> sure, I agree
2010-10-09 23:52 <wolfspraul> smaller = better, imo
2010-10-09 23:52 <wolfspraul> there are 1.25mm pitch connectors too, I think
2010-10-09 23:52 <wolfspraul> I don't know much about the pros or cons for the intended use case later, though
2010-10-09 23:53 <wolfspraul> my feeling is whether we have a 2mm or other connector, we should include a cable so that people can easily solder individual wires to whatever target they have
2010-10-09 23:53 <andres-calderon> We also use two 2.54mm connectors (instead of one of 2mm)
2010-10-09 23:53 <wolfspraul> and in that case (if we include a cable anyway), I would think it doesn't matter so much whether the connector on the board is easy to get, or not so easy to get
2010-10-09 23:53 <wolfspraul> as long as at least going forward the connector we chose is not becoming obsolete
2010-10-09 23:53 <wolfspraul> that would be bad
2010-10-09 23:54 <wolfspraul> too bad that wpwrak is out right now...
2010-10-09 23:54 <wolfspraul> andres-calderon: if you are out later, I am sure wpwrak will have some feedback on this, you can check the irclogs at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
2010-10-09 23:54 <andres-calderon> ok