2010-10-06 00:20 kristianpaul: I think the servers should be back now, let me know if anything doesn't work 2010-10-06 00:47 hi kristian 2010-10-06 00:47 thanks alot 2010-10-06 00:47 now I am getting two way serial communication but another small problem has popup 2010-10-06 01:32 qwebirc22159: (2-way) cool ! what was the problem ? 2010-10-06 01:32 kristianpaul: (repo) not sure. it's usually fastest to just draw your own. 2010-10-06 01:36 serial port was locked with ash login 2010-10-06 01:41 qwebirc22159: oh, good to know this one ! thanks ! 2010-10-06 02:39 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Option -D to keep temporary work trees for analysis/debugging. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/f68e5a5 2010-10-06 03:02 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Allow setting of _schhist2web, to allow for parallel runs. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/479fff1 2010-10-06 03:02 wolfspraul: FYI: i'm updating eda-tools on fidelio and i'll do a build run of avt2, with separate directories 2010-10-06 03:02 sure 2010-10-06 03:03 maybe disable the /etc/cron.d/schhist if it's disturbing your work 2010-10-06 03:03 the setup is documented here, as you probably already know http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#KiCad,_fped,_schhist 2010-10-06 03:07 i just added instrumentation to schhist to let it run in parallel :) 2010-10-06 03:07 (documentation) yup, got that one. thanks 2010-10-06 03:09 parallel, scary 2010-10-06 03:09 you had to add that first, before tracking down the ghosts? :-) (just kidding) 2010-10-06 03:09 I was quite happy with the idea that things run sequentially 2010-10-06 03:10 with parallel later the global (kicad-libs) problem may also get bigger 2010-10-06 03:10 you can just turn off the server builds (cron.d) entirely to play around, no worries 2010-10-06 03:11 my script is also quite resilient in resuming, so you can just delete all git and output dirs and it should reconstruct everything once the cronjob is back 2010-10-06 03:12 (parallel) oh, it's just a means to specify separate directories. in one case, i need it anyway, to keep temporary results 2010-10-06 03:12 you can look at the last few commits. they don't change a lot. 2010-10-06 03:27 wpwrak: about NN Nanowar edition , Only 3 selled but we have created some noise out of the techy sphere, a see a little more activity in normal NN after launch not espectacular but people start perciving NN as something more than a portatile console. 2010-10-06 03:28 wpwrak: I forgot to answer your key question yesterday. without news, I sell maybe 3-5 / week from Hong Kong. 2010-10-06 03:28 not including distributors, but the only active and real distributor is ... Tuxbrain! :-) 2010-10-06 03:29 tuxbrain: btw, the small gift package to you is on the way, according to tracking it was released from customs 2010-10-06 03:29 with the microsd cards (late, but anyway...), some pouches, and 10 resistive touch panels to play with SIE 2010-10-06 03:29 yuhuuuu!!!! 2010-10-06 03:30 maybe also some new stickers, 2nd generation so the print quality is much better 2010-10-06 03:31 perfect on November I will go to the Hack Metting on Zaragoza, so is a good place to spread that stickers :) 2010-10-06 03:31 great yes! 2010-10-06 03:31 I'm quite satisfied with the stickers now 2010-10-06 03:31 we need to document the files and process a bit better 2010-10-06 03:31 tuxbrain: (NN in better light) great ! 2010-10-06 03:31 if someone makes better designs, also fine 2010-10-06 03:31 tuxbrain: btw, in your latest shipment (the one still on order), every nanonote will have the new stickers 2010-10-06 03:32 2 * NanoNote, 2 * Sharism, 2 * Milkymist 2010-10-06 03:32 in each box 2010-10-06 03:32 plus I've added a free pouch, very simple one but I think it's nice 2010-10-06 03:32 there are some hardware hakers willing to play with the SPI /SDIO interface , and I have already did nothing yet :) 2010-10-06 03:32 tuxbrain: (3 nanowars) hmm, perhaps it's just too exotic. maybe get an exclusive contract with madonna for the next ben-with-media bundle :) 2010-10-06 03:32 great!!! 2010-10-06 03:32 the free pouches in the new NanoNote run are the same as the 10-20 I sent you for free in the gift package 2010-10-06 03:33 wolfspraul: (3-5/wk) so the bens you have now will last you for 2 years :) 2010-10-06 03:33 I would have _almost_ included a spare battery in the new run, but I had the idea too late and the lead time would have delayed the shipment by 2-3 weeks, so I decided against it. 2010-10-06 03:34 wpwrak: that's without news, without tuxbrain (Europe), who has been selling 40% of all Nanos anyway 2010-10-06 03:34 who knows maybe our US distributor freedomincluded.com comes alive? 2010-10-06 03:34 don't know 2010-10-06 03:34 ok I'm finishing  the deal with pulster, I will place the order end of this week or beguining of next 2010-10-06 03:34 wolfspraul: yes, i already included that 50% that sell elsewhere :) 2010-10-06 03:34 djbclark: still alive? :-) 2010-10-06 03:34 I would love to have an active US distributor 2010-10-06 03:35 maybe freedomincluded will eventually kick into high hear, philosophically it's definitely a fit 2010-10-06 03:35 we'll see 2010-10-06 03:35 wolfspraul: so the bottom line is that news will be needed. hmm. how to generate quick good-looking news ? 2010-10-06 03:36 common it can't be at least Iron Maiden instead of Madonna? 2010-10-06 03:36 first question is which media 2010-10-06 03:36 maybe the tech press already has done what they can do 2010-10-06 03:36 but to go elsewhere, software is not ready yet 2010-10-06 03:37 I have finally finished the blogging/feed improvements I wanted to do for a long time. 2010-10-06 03:37 so the Sharism (company) blog is fed into the planet 2010-10-06 03:37 and the Qi community news are fed into the planet too! 2010-10-06 03:37 and there is a clean RSS/Atom feed for the community news now 2010-10-06 03:38 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/News 2010-10-06 03:38 tuxbrain: hmm, if they're still alive. or, cooler, if they're dead already but you can resurrect them. the NNN, NanoNote Necromancy 2010-10-06 03:38 next step is to start working on some editorials, press releases, interviews 2010-10-06 03:38 and of course resurrect the community news 2010-10-06 03:39 wolfspraul: i don't think "mainstream" will be a good target before the ya and all the improved process ownership that hopefully comes with it 2010-10-06 03:39 wolfspraul: so it would have to be some more milking of the tech press 2010-10-06 03:40 I think there are endless communities/markets in between mainstream and tech 2010-10-06 03:41 perhaps the ben plus breakout board thing could be something. it would have to be nicely packaged, though. kinda like those educational science experiments kits for kids (Kosmos and the like) 2010-10-06 03:41 so, again something with plenty of work before it's ready :-( 2010-10-06 03:41 I am just describing my thinking to you, I'll see whether it works 2010-10-06 03:41 sales & engineering 2010-10-06 03:41 sorry I meant sales != engineering 2010-10-06 03:41 in other words, if I work on sales, even just PR/marketing, then by definition I try to sell whatever I have 2010-10-06 03:41 not do more work :-) 2010-10-06 03:42 of course someone has to buy... 2010-10-06 03:42 sure, that's the ideal case :) 2010-10-06 03:42 the question for engineering is then to see what can be done to improve your odds 2010-10-06 03:44 I think the current hacking projects are just fine. everything from cases, ben-wpan, gps, to sie/touch driver, milkymist, xue (cmos image sensors) 2010-10-06 03:44 those things all make sense and will come together 2010-10-06 03:44 same as the server work 2010-10-06 03:45 David and I have to think how we can sell more of what we have today, irrespective of the great things we work on for tomorrow. 2010-10-06 03:45 hehehe irrespective 2010-10-06 03:45 alright, so how to show the existing stuff in a new light ? 2010-10-06 03:45 pure marqueting yeah 2010-10-06 03:46 ah, new light 2010-10-06 03:46 basically that why my obsesion for jlime, is what Openwrt has to become in terms of user experience 2010-10-06 03:46 reminds me of your ben case renderings 2010-10-06 03:47 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-01 2010-10-06 03:47 trying to remember what happened recently 2010-10-06 03:47 I think we should include a pic of werner's ben rendering 2010-10-06 03:47 then the pic with atusd inserted 2010-10-06 03:47 nanowar was already in the september news I think 2010-10-06 03:48 no not yet 2010-10-06 03:48 so that one too 2010-10-06 03:48 new run 2010-10-06 03:48 wolfspraul: will the nanowar picture the oe of the guy licking the box ? :) 2010-10-06 03:48 tuxbrain: in fact, he should have been licking the machine 2010-10-06 03:50 wolfspraul: community news would be a "cheap" basic source of news for the "official" blog. that would solve the problem of months passing, apparently without anything happening 2010-10-06 03:50 wpwrak: I have just cleaned up the server side tech, I'm on it now 2010-10-06 03:50 no worries 2010-10-06 03:50 also added schhist 2010-10-06 03:50 it's quite droll how many sites are out there with a proud page of "LATEST NEWS" and then it's twenty entries from 2005-2006. 2010-10-06 03:50 the 'official' blog you are talking about is the sharism blog 2010-10-06 03:51 it's same as the tuxbrain blog 2010-10-06 03:51 ah, right 2010-10-06 03:51 some new reviews 2010-10-06 03:52 yes, the sharism blog. it looks nice and professional. so that's where you'd expect the good stuff. 2010-10-06 03:54 sharism blog will have a business & manufacturing perspective 2010-10-06 03:54 it sorts itself out once there is some life... 2010-10-06 03:55 biz and manufacturing is good. sharism is the engine that drives the whole system. 2010-10-06 03:56 yeah, great engine. fuel supplies a little low... :-) 2010-10-06 03:56 we should add some solar panels 2010-10-06 03:56 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-01 2010-10-06 03:56 I added a few things 2010-10-06 03:56 will add more, and write nicer texts, embed pictures etc. 2010-10-06 03:57 ah yes, the 1k run. excellent. no better sign of life than that. 2010-10-06 03:58 this will be published on the first of November, and 'published' means it goes into the Qi feed and into the planet 2010-10-06 03:58 http://en.qi-hardware.com/feed/atom.xml 2010-10-06 03:58 http://en.qi-hardware.com/feed/rss20.xml 2010-10-06 03:58 those are the official (!) Qi feeds now :-) 2010-10-06 03:58 including community news, editorials, interviews, press releases, whatever 2010-10-06 03:59 stuff can be written in the wiki, and published by adding to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/News when it's ready for publication 2010-10-06 03:59 tuxbrain: so you have almost a month to make your serial board, for even more hw news :) 2010-10-06 03:59 then we have the planet 2010-10-06 03:59 http://en.qi-hardware.com/planet/atom.xml 2010-10-06 03:59 http://en.qi-hardware.com/planet/rss20.xml 2010-10-06 03:59 the planet aggregates all sorts of interesting feeds around copyleft hardware 2010-10-06 04:00 tuxbrain: the nice thing would be that it would then look like a "family" of extension boards. not just some one-off hack. 2010-10-06 04:00 including the Qi news, sharism, tuxbrain, and many others 2010-10-06 04:00 so I hope for those that use feed readers, we can point them to either subscribe to the Qi feed, or if they are very interested, to the entire planet 2010-10-06 04:00 which I want to manage to a level of not more than 1-2 posts a day or so 2010-10-06 04:01 thanks for the preasure , dude :) , In next days I will be a really annowing wannabe asking a lot 2010-10-06 04:01 and hopefully solid/interesting posts, quality over quantity 2010-10-06 04:01 wpwrak: tuxbrain does this news/feed regime I described make sense? 2010-10-06 04:01 well as allways 2010-10-06 04:01 I'll be filling it with life myself, no worries 2010-10-06 04:02 of course the more join the better, Mirko started this a while back, over the summer it was a bit quiet, now I upped some things on the server and I am ready to jump back in too... 2010-10-06 04:02 tuxbrain: (pressure) in a previous life, i was the fat guy with the drums in a galley ;-) 2010-10-06 04:02 ah, since kristoffer just joined, the news about the new Jlime betas must go in as well 2010-10-06 04:03 done (links and pics later) 2010-10-06 04:03 wolfspraul: i don't know much about rss and such, but the general concept sounds good 2010-10-06 04:03 yeah, I hope too 2010-10-06 04:04 the entire publishing can now be driven from the wiki, which is nice 2010-10-06 04:04 great I was the one eating grape taking sun baths up stairs, mmm I want to do some watter skiing.... faaat guuuy..... 2010-10-06 04:04 drums faster 2010-10-06 04:04 I will also go over the mailing list and see whether there is more newsworthy stuff there 2010-10-06 04:04 Wiki-Aided-Publishing ;-) 2010-10-06 04:06 what have I missed? 2010-10-06 04:06 wpwrak: by the way, you mentioned that you are missing some individual mechanical pieces recently, like the bezel on the top, metal piece over speaker, etc. 2010-10-06 04:06 and then the slave wake up of his dream and star to push an pull the big bar of wood in front of him faster .... 2010-10-06 04:06 I'm working on collecting them and sending to you. expect in a few weeks maybe. 2010-10-06 04:07 ok titme to do some work 2010-10-06 04:07 see you later 2010-10-06 04:07 kristoffer: if you have some Jlime news, please add to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-01 2010-10-06 04:07 ideally with pics, but you can also just leave a note and we'll fill in the juicy bits later 2010-10-06 04:07 wolfspraul: cool, thanks ! if you have a sponge (the thing under the keyboard), that would be nice, too. ah, and an lcd module without pcb attached. 2010-10-06 04:08 sponge? 2010-10-06 04:08 wolfspraul: well, the rubbery plastic foam. 2010-10-06 04:08 can you take that off from the keyboard? 2010-10-06 04:08 that is one piece coming from 1 vendor, so I didn't even know you can take it apart without destroying it 2010-10-06 04:09 it's attached to the bottom shell 2010-10-06 04:09 of course they do put it together, so there must be a way to take it apart as well 2010-10-06 04:09 bottom shell? 2010-10-06 04:09 hmm 2010-10-06 04:09 yes, i could try to pry it off one of my devices. but if you have one lying around, that's easier :) 2010-10-06 04:10 you know which part i'm talking about ? the same sort of material you use for isolating door frames and such 2010-10-06 04:10 well, similar 2010-10-06 04:10 I think I know, but don't have a disassembled device here right now 2010-10-06 04:10 it's glued into the bottom plastic part? 2010-10-06 04:11 yes 2010-10-06 04:11 ok 2010-10-06 04:11 it's about 48 x 14 mm. 2010-10-06 04:11 dark grey 2010-10-06 04:12 I have don't see this piece you are talking about in the ones I have dissambled .... 2010-10-06 04:12 1-1.8 mm 2010-10-06 04:12 tuxbrain_away: maybe you just didn't notice :) lemme check my picture collection ... 2010-10-06 04:13 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/cw/run1/cw168-installed.jpg 2010-10-06 04:13 right below the "16.8" 2010-10-06 04:13 it's actualy something i may not be able to scan because it's too soft. but i can at least measure it. 2010-10-06 04:14 ops yes there it is :O 2010-10-06 04:21 one of these days i have to find out how to make keycaps. i could make leaded ones, of course. i think keycaps glued into a silicone mat may be sufficient for proof of concept grade experiments 2010-10-06 04:21 oh, and a heavy keyboard could also be an alternative to the counterweight ;-) 2010-10-06 04:26 (kbd) this would be a layout idea: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/layout.pdf 2010-10-06 04:27 only one "fn" modifier (no arrow), no function keys, wide space bar, large enter. ideally, it would work on top of the existing domes. but i'm not sure a wide button straddling two domes works. maybe i need three. or maybe it simply doesn't work with > 1 domes. 2010-10-06 05:13 wolfspraul: parcel arrived, first though... ya must those touch screens !!! 2010-10-06 05:13 must have 2010-10-06 05:15 second though pouches are great!! will protect nn from scratchesn in bags and pockets :) 2010-10-06 05:15 and NN fits like in a glove in them, good finde 2010-10-06 05:15 good find, 2010-10-06 05:17 third though, why don't sell them lets say at 3¬ instead of gift it? this may sound unpopular but also every one knows how our margins are so any extra income will benefit, and also give to NN a starting universe of complement for it 2010-10-06 05:19 fourth though, how can I connect the touch screen to the sdio :P 2010-10-06 05:20 any datasheet on what those four pins return?  I supouse is vin voutx vouty gnd? 2010-10-06 05:21 XR0 XR1 YR0 YR1 ? 2010-10-06 05:21 or are there any electronic components ? 2010-10-06 05:21 you mean as the ends of a resistor? 2010-10-06 05:22 no, no extra electronics in there 2010-10-06 05:22 yup. a resistive touch screen is just two resistors that connect somewhere in the middle (where you touch) 2010-10-06 05:22 (connect) your ATmega has an ADC ;-) 2010-10-06 05:24 yes that was my tough so we sould left 4 extra pins free to the serial uSD dongle to let people connect the touch screen :) 2010-10-06 05:24 too bad the ADC of the Ben's CPU isn't accessible 2010-10-06 05:25 it should be accecibel on Ya 2010-10-06 05:25 wtf ya must have this touch screens :) 2010-10-06 05:26 avt2 has them, though 2010-10-06 05:26 sorry when a parcel arrives with new things I'm allways extra excited 2010-10-06 05:26 even on a connector. very nice. 2010-10-06 05:26 "CON4P1" 2010-10-06 05:27 you want I send one of those to you?, I have 10, one or two for me, one for the University of Granada, so 7 left 2010-10-06 05:27 no idea if you can just plug it in or if the connectors are different 2010-10-06 05:28 i guess wolfgang could put one in the next "gift package" 2010-10-06 05:28 wolfi, the copyleft hardware Santa 2010-10-06 05:29 it bring gift to hackers that are good guys 2010-10-06 05:30 ok one by one 2010-10-06 05:30 wolfspraul: oh .. when rerunning schhist after the cache.lib removal change, did you kill the old output directory ? 2010-10-06 05:30 first I'm glad you got it and like it 2010-10-06 05:30 a gift from China :-) 2010-10-06 05:30 yes I was thinking about selling the pouch extra 2010-10-06 05:30 a lot 2010-10-06 05:31 wolfspraul: because, if not, it'll just reuse the things if had created before the change 2010-10-06 05:31 I know it will be unpopular with distributors to include one, but I figured neither you nor me have any real accessories business right now. 2010-10-06 05:31 I apologize that I didn't ask/talk to you before about it, in those times we were a bit disconnected... 2010-10-06 05:32 so since our volumes are so low right now, I figured we just include the pouch to make the package more valuable, focus just on the device 2010-10-06 05:32 if that's wrong, and you would like me to remove the pouch, and sell it separately, well you are my customer :-) 2010-10-06 05:32 customers, on the other hand, usually like it if there's lots of stuff in the box. 2010-10-06 05:32 the price of each pouch is an unbelievable 15 US cents, by the way 2010-10-06 05:32 end-customers :) 2010-10-06 05:32 and I felt bad making a big fuss (separate product) out of this 15 cents piece of nothing 2010-10-06 05:33 wolfspraul: strike this from the log and sell it for a special price of EUR 10 ;-) 2010-10-06 05:33 tuxbrain_away: but I made the decision single-handedly, and I do listen to you if you want it differently in the future 2010-10-06 05:33 about the touchscreen 2010-10-06 05:33 it's a 4-wire resistive one, very simple 2010-10-06 05:34 the cool thing about it is that larsc has already added a touch-screen driver for the Sungale ID800WT picture frame, which uses a 4740 2010-10-06 05:34 kewl :) all the work is done 2010-10-06 05:34 well, not really 2010-10-06 05:34 at least not today 2010-10-06 05:34 because... 2010-10-06 05:34 where would you want to hook it up right now? 2010-10-06 05:34 avt2 :) 2010-10-06 05:35 on the ben, I am not 100% positive that the 4720 (COB) has the adc (resistive) wires out 2010-10-06 05:35 and we definitely don't have them as test points 2010-10-06 05:35 the ben doesn't 2010-10-06 05:35 correct 2010-10-06 05:35 so I don't think there is a way to hook it up on the Ben 2010-10-06 05:35 no nice and easy way 2010-10-06 05:35 wpwrak: does the 4720 have the touch pin-out? 2010-10-06 05:35 I will not not blame nor moan, we should be consequent so if you don't sell separatly I will do not, is enoght to listen the 99$=99¬ blaming time to time to add in addition hey in sharims the offer the pouch for free! you steeler 2010-10-06 05:35 yes. the avt2 even has a connector for a touch screen 2010-10-06 05:36 for SIE, similar story, the  4725 afaik does not bringout the touch interface 2010-10-06 05:36 so yes, Lars driver is nice 2010-10-06 05:36 and we can hook it up on the few avt2 we have 2010-10-06 05:36 or maybe on future runs 2010-10-06 05:36 but on sie, I believe we cannot hook it up in such a way to use lars driver 2010-10-06 05:36 so on sie, we can either hook it up to the adc (?), or to the fpga (?) 2010-10-06 05:36 I think Carlos planned something along those lines, I sent him 10 touch panels as well but they haven't arrived yet. 2010-10-06 05:37 well sie has his own adc's 2010-10-06 05:37 you are quick 2010-10-06 05:37 on the Ben, yes, maybe it is theoretically possible to use sdio, but actually I doubt it. I'm not sure the speed is high enough. I do think you need an ADC somewhere. 2010-10-06 05:37 jz4725B only has one ADC input, not the four for the touch screen 2010-10-06 05:37 so yes there are ways to start playing with those panels I sent you, but it's not just plug & play 2010-10-06 05:38 it's more about the long run 2010-10-06 05:38 lars has made the first step, we have a functioning driver for the 4740 2010-10-06 05:38 maybe Carlos will do something on SIE, or now you can? don't know 2010-10-06 05:38 whatever, this is work for ya and expand the hackerish on ben 2010-10-06 05:38 but man, ya must have it 2010-10-06 05:38 can some of lars driver be reused on sie? I doubt it, it may be very 4740 specific, but I don't know 2010-10-06 05:38 (sdio) an MCU may be cost-neutral when compared to an ADC, and more flexible 2010-10-06 05:39 tuxbrain_away: so you go figure what to do with them, I don't know 2010-10-06 05:39 there are multiple angles to get started 2010-10-06 05:39 they only cost 50 cents / piece by the way 2010-10-06 05:39 sold like candy on the street 2010-10-06 05:39 I could buy 2 for a dollar :-) 2010-10-06 05:40 arduino apliances for example for start 2010-10-06 05:40 the reason I threw them into your package was just to go along with the SIE, as an 'add-on' of sorts 2010-10-06 05:40 (driver reuse on SIE) would be very unlikely. these drivers generally don't do much beyond talking to the ADC or touch screen subsystem (some implement the whole X/Y measurement process, so there's no need to do this explicitly step by step) 2010-10-06 05:40 at that time I still thought you would have 4 SIE, so I sent you 10 panels 2010-10-06 05:41 wolfspraul: the main question is how easy/hard it is to attach them to the display 2010-10-06 05:41 tuxbrain_away: I think for SIE those panels are a fun project 2010-10-06 05:41 just put on top 2010-10-06 05:41 glue ? 2010-10-06 05:41 why? 2010-10-06 05:41 it's a separate glass 2010-10-06 05:41 what holds them in place ? 2010-10-06 05:41 glass ?!? 2010-10-06 05:41 I don't knowy if you have read my intentions of add an atmel to SDIO so if I succed I will have have a way to use that panel on ben on a hackish way 2010-10-06 05:41 that would be capacitative 2010-10-06 05:42 capacitive? 2010-10-06 05:42 no 2010-10-06 05:42 both resistive and capacitive panels are (currently) still on a separate glass layer 2010-10-06 05:43 there are huge investments being made to bring the touch layer (resistive or capacitive) directly onto the glass under which the crystals are 2010-10-06 05:43 but afaik nobody can manufacture that at acceptable yields right now 2010-10-06 05:43 hmm, resistive and glass ? lemme research this ... 2010-10-06 05:43 maybe sometimes the material can also be plastic or some other funky stuff, but it's always a separate layer, right now 2010-10-06 05:44 wpwrak: it may be plastic 2010-10-06 05:44 yes, plastic is what i would expect 2010-10-06 05:44 ah OK, sorry 2010-10-06 05:44 I'm no so precise on the materials 2010-10-06 05:44 it definitely looks and feels like glass 2010-10-06 05:44 yes, separate layer. that's for sure. but how does it stay in place ? 2010-10-06 05:44 anyway my point is that it is a separately laery 2010-10-06 05:44 layer 2010-10-06 05:44 so you just put it on top of the screen 2010-10-06 05:45 it's held in place by the mechanical around it normally 2010-10-06 05:45 polycarbonate is quite similar to glass. even likes to break almost as easily as glass (making it fun to machine :) 2010-10-06 05:45 I mean - what holds the SIE LCM in place right now? :-) nothing... 2010-10-06 05:45 well, pressure. but if there's no adhesion, the panel will shift. 2010-10-06 05:46 maybe not to the point where you can see that it has moved, but to the point that you need to re-calibrate 2010-10-06 05:50 sure, understand and agreed 2010-10-06 05:50 but like I said, whatever holds the LCM in place also has to hold the touch panel in place 2010-10-06 05:51 and on SIE we have neither right now, the LCM is just hanging loose on the FPC 2010-10-06 05:51 there is a small edge on the side, maybe as a lab measure one could just take the two together 2010-10-06 05:51 tape 2010-10-06 05:51 can it be hacked into a Ben? don't know, that's at least as much a software problem as a hardware problem 2010-10-06 05:52 tuxbrain_away: next SIE run, we can definitely consider to just throwing these panels into the package 2010-10-06 05:52 up to you... 2010-10-06 05:53 if is up to me then yes include them :) 2010-10-06 05:53 wolfspraul: hmm, projects.../schhist runs directly off /home/schhist/output/ ? 2010-10-06 05:54 a smal drops of superglue will not atach them toguether forever? 2010-10-06 05:55 (i'm looking for a way to force a rebuild. i think you may not have done a full rebuild after i added the removal of cache.lib, so the ghosts would now simply come out of schhist's own cache) 2010-10-06 05:55 tuxbrain_away: that's at least what i'd try :) 2010-10-06 05:56 (way to force a rebuild) without being too intrusive :) 2010-10-06 05:58 btw, where I can find connectors to the touch screen to not solder cables directly to the four pins? 2010-10-06 06:12 ah yes, output is "live". hmm. 2010-10-06 06:13 wolfspraul: can i kill the avt2 display on http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/ for a while ? 2010-10-06 06:13 hehe the universty of Granada also want's 30 SIE daughter boards of this one http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/C%C3%A1mara_Digital_con_efectos_de_imagen 2010-10-06 06:14 tuxbrain_away: fear the special wishes :) 2010-10-06 06:15 yes the hehe was a defesive laught of fear 2010-10-06 06:17 I will talk to carlos to know what he thought about and to know what's the status of the project, at first sight the definition of the project at the wiki page seems quite complete but as wolfi will said is just paper 2010-10-06 06:20 the design looks straightforward enough 2010-10-06 06:21 it's the sort of thing you can do quite conveniently at home 2010-10-06 06:21 well, all the through-hole components suck a bit 2010-10-06 06:23 you'd spend an hour just drilling holes 2010-10-06 06:23 mmm I supouse they select them to mount it it selfs confotable, 30 is small number to ask for a smd redesign though, aaarrgh why they don what to bough a thousand , then all doubts will be out 2010-10-06 06:24 themselfs not it self 2010-10-06 06:29 wpwrak: (draw) yeah i noticed this is called module editor :) 2010-10-06 06:30 kristianpaul: for drawing a footprint, you're probably better off with fped 2010-10-06 06:30 kristianpaul: that is, unless you always aspired to lead the diverse and exciting life of a machine 2010-10-06 06:31 wpwrak: fped is in qu repo or in your openmoko svn btw? 2010-10-06 06:31 s/qu/qi 2010-10-06 06:32 wpwrak: okay i'll follow your experience in the field :) 2010-10-06 06:32 kristianpaul: i don't know if the qi repo has any changes. if in doubt, just use the one at openmoko. 2010-10-06 06:33 k 2010-10-06 06:33 there is a quick intro to the interface? 2010-10-06 06:33 btw there is no open menu??.. 2010-10-06 06:34 argh. those kids today. now they even want intros ! 2010-10-06 06:34 ok.. 2010-10-06 06:34 runs away.. :) 2010-10-06 06:34 http://people.openmoko.org/werner/fped/gui.html 2010-10-06 06:34 ah 2010-10-06 06:34 :) 2010-10-06 06:34 (open) you run it with the file name as argument,   fped whatever.fpd 2010-10-06 06:35 yeah i noticed it some secons ago 2010-10-06 06:35 seconds* 2010-10-06 06:35 if yo give it no argument, it'll write to stdout. so nothing is lost, but it may be a bit harder to collect the results of your work :) 2010-10-06 06:36 also, save from time to time. there are still bugs that occasionally crash it, particularly (a while) after deleting things. if you find a way to reproduce a crash, please please let me know :) 2010-10-06 06:37 sure 2010-10-06 06:56 hmm, no reaction. i'll just try to do a "gentle" rebuild of avt2 then ... 2010-10-06 07:02 wpwrak: kill it kill it 2010-10-06 07:02 wolfspraul: i tried to kill just the cache. seems that this worked. now it's rebuilding 2010-10-06 07:03 wolfspraul: any comment on the SIE daughter board? 2010-10-06 07:03 I forgot to kill the cache? 2010-10-06 07:03 where does it live? 2010-10-06 07:03 I'm pretty sure I removed the entire output/avt2 2010-10-06 07:04 what did you mean with "runs in /home/schhist/output"? 2010-10-06 07:05 daughterboard... first thing I see that camera module on coin picture, which I'm sure is not proper copyleft 2010-10-06 07:05 I should just delete it 2010-10-06 07:06 copied from the sparkfun online shop 2010-10-06 07:07 wolfspraul: (runs in) that the output there is directly visible on the web. i did a quick test and this seems to be the case. something to fix later. 2010-10-06 07:07 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Make schhist try harder to do seamless in-place updates. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/9816847 2010-10-06 07:07 here's a band-aid to make it a bit better 2010-10-06 07:08 heheeh ok not good start 2010-10-06 07:09 I couldn't find a policy on sparkfun.com 2010-10-06 07:09 the picture is marked 'public domain - copyright ineligible' which is definitely not the case 2010-10-06 07:09 wpwrak: why would that need to be fixed? 2010-10-06 07:09 yes, I just share that entire directory via nfs back to the Apache server :-) 2010-10-06 07:10 I'm pretty radical on saving me working time unless there is a need to do better. a bit of extra traffic between the 2 servers doesn't matter. 2010-10-06 07:10 especially when it's about syncing 3+ gigabytes of data 2010-10-06 07:10 just leave it where it is, nfs, apache, done 2010-10-06 07:10 I have no comment on the daughterboard 2010-10-06 07:11 from the about us of sparkfun: 2010-10-06 07:11 its' very hard to manufacture something like this cost-effective 2010-10-06 07:11 Photos: Please feel free to use our product photos in your project documentation or reports. If you would like to use a photo for a commercial venture, please contact us first at marketing@sparkfun.com 2010-10-06 07:11 Qi is a commercial venture, they didn't contact them for sure. so we need to delete it. 2010-10-06 07:11 sure 2010-10-06 07:12 tuxbrain_away: the problem with such boards is that whoever wants them wants to pay 10 USD for them 2010-10-06 07:12 I don't have delete permision 2010-10-06 07:12 and buy 20 2010-10-06 07:12 one sec I'll give it to you 2010-10-06 07:12 (thanks for asking) 2010-10-06 07:12 hmm 2010-10-06 07:12 you are admin already 2010-10-06 07:12 are you sure you cannot delete? 2010-10-06 07:13 sorry I don't even try 2010-10-06 07:13 :-) 2010-10-06 07:13 I didn't now I was admin :P 2010-10-06 07:13 wolfspraul: sigh. you're right. you did delete the cache properly back then. the ghosts are still there :-(( 2010-10-06 07:13 bwaahahaha 2010-10-06 07:13 so for the daughterboard, and my extreme need to focus on somewhat profitable endeavors, my minimum order quantity would probably be in the hundreds at least 2010-10-06 07:14 tuxbrain_away: I have a trigger finger when it comes to giving people permissions. 2010-10-06 07:14 wolfspraul: (fixed) because schhist doesn't do an "atomic" update. so if you access the output directory while it's updating, you may get partial files. 2010-10-06 07:14 some people have blasted me for that, but I don't care :-) 2010-10-06 07:14 any permission I have you can have too 2010-10-06 07:14 even in my bank account - there is nothing there to take anyway, he he :-) 2010-10-06 07:15 tuxbrain_away: is that a clear answer on the daughterboard? 2010-10-06 07:15 even SIE is already a stretch for me 2010-10-06 07:15 the smaller and more primitive a board gets the harder it is 2010-10-06 07:15 I need more complex boards, more integrated 2010-10-06 07:15 then higher volume 2010-10-06 07:15 then I still have to spend a lot of time on testing etc. and documenting everything properly, but that's what I want to try as a company 2010-10-06 07:16 so making ca. 50 SIE was extremely tough for me, but at least it's a nice NanoNote derivative, quite complex etc. 2010-10-06 07:16 so we can innovate on the freedom/copyleft side 2010-10-06 07:16 if you want to order 200 or more SIE from me, great, that's starting to become actually sustainable for me 2010-10-06 07:17 understood, sharims not daughter SIE manufaturer for less than 250 units 2010-10-06 07:17 daughterboard: unless someone wants to pay a high price / board, or someone orders 500 or more, it's nearly impossible for me unless you want to speed up my bankruptcy 2010-10-06 07:17 yes fair enough 2010-10-06 07:17 250 is already low 2010-10-06 07:17 understood, sharims not daughter SIE manufaturer for less than 500 units 2010-10-06 07:18 the problem is also people don't want to pay 2010-10-06 07:18 yes! :-) 2010-10-06 07:18 thanks 2010-10-06 07:18 hey, everything in china is cheap ;-) 2010-10-06 07:18 you cannot believe how many mails I get where someone says "we ordered this stuff from China, and IT DOES NOT WORK!!!" 2010-10-06 07:18 then I dig in a bit, and it turns out they got EXACTLY WHAT THEY DESERVE 2010-10-06 07:18 :-) 2010-10-06 07:18 (-:C 2010-10-06 07:18 the Ferraris here in Beijing cost the same as in Europe 2010-10-06 07:18 no difference guys 2010-10-06 07:19 but the Chinese are good at selling you something that doesn't work. they don't care that you are so stupid. it's pre-paid before the shipment goes out anyway. 2010-10-06 07:19 so sorry, in those cases, I also cannot help 2010-10-06 07:19 go buy your 10 USD crap and then send your sensational mails about Chinese crap 2010-10-06 07:20 find out what the Granada guys want to pay for the daughterboard... 2010-10-06 07:20 I had previouly contact of a local board integrator, near my town, I can ask for price, I the unesity will be interested on the price they offer me +20% great if not.. great too 2010-10-06 07:20 definitely ask them 2010-10-06 07:20 for simple boards it may be better to do it locally 2010-10-06 07:20 less shipping around, communication overhead 2010-10-06 07:20 wolfspraul: and what makes it all worse are those people who brag about getting some nice product for something like 15 cents :) 2010-10-06 07:21 I should add my finder's fee. 2010-10-06 07:21 they are teachers wanting to do courses with them, just as carlos, I suppose the camara will help them to make more atractive the course 2010-10-06 07:22 they already have cheap slave labour (students). they really don't need wolfgang. 2010-10-06 07:23 heard this recently... someone wanted to make a beagleboard derivative 2010-10-06 07:24 got a quote from a US company, total USD 30k for the small runs and until they can sell something 2010-10-06 07:24 sounds perfectly fine to me 2010-10-06 07:24 if you wanted to do this in China, it would still be USD 15-20k if you actually want something that runs later 2010-10-06 07:25 below that, the likelihood of the stuff you are getting not working goes up 2010-10-06 07:25 a little bit with every grand that you 'save' from the price 2010-10-06 07:25 below 5k I'd say the chance of the boards not working must be somewhere at 99% :-) 2010-10-06 07:25 but hey... 2010-10-06 07:25 there is always a buyer stupid enough to not understand what they are getting into 2010-10-06 07:25 and: they pre-pay! :-) 2010-10-06 07:26 so let's turn on the machines for them :-) 2010-10-06 07:26 it's perfect. the manager who decides to do this gets a bonus for the cost saving and then they can blame those evil chinese. 2010-10-06 07:27 but since I'm marketing my own products and doing customer service, returns etc. myself I am totally not interested in such business 2010-10-06 07:27 of course,that's exactly how it is 2010-10-06 07:27 but the Chinese don't care, they are pretty good at smiling 2010-10-06 07:27 the transaction was profitable... 2010-10-06 07:27 but like I said, I am doing customer service, returns, warranty etc. myself 2010-10-06 07:27 so sorry I don't want to go there... 2010-10-06 07:28 yeah, you should do china manufacturing consulting 2010-10-06 07:29 for each task, find a lot of really cheap ones and a few expensive but good ones. add a fat margin to the cheap ones (they'll still be cheap). then let the customer pick. advise them that you've only worked with the expensive ones before and that you'd recommend them. 2010-10-06 07:30 of course, they will pick a cheap one. you're covered and you're getting pre-paid too. if you pull it of smoothly, they may even come back ;-)) 2010-10-06 07:33 if one of the cheap orders my some miracle turns out right, slap an even fatter margin on that one (your finder's fee) for the next customers and thus create a middle price segment. you can only win ;-) 2010-10-06 07:33 he 2010-10-06 07:33 maybe I have to go to adjust my glasses lens but I dont find the delete button option any place... 2010-10-06 07:34 there should be a little drop down icon left of the search field 2010-10-06 07:34 assuming you are using the (default) vector skin 2010-10-06 07:35 tuxbrain_away: another question about the stickers in the gift package: do you see the improvement to the prior ones? do you think the new ones are actually usable in the field? 2010-10-06 07:35 if you want more you can get more, no problem. just make sure they go to people who really use them, not just throw in the drawer. 2010-10-06 07:36 oh sure! i forget to commet it also,yes, they look very more profesional ended the the previouse ones 2010-10-06 07:38 maybe I miss urls on them 2010-10-06 07:38 like the milkymist one 2010-10-06 07:40 hmm, OK good point 2010-10-06 07:40 first I want to get the quality under control, then the design 2010-10-06 07:40 I think the quality of the new stickers is pretty good, given all the stickers I have seen in recent months. 2010-10-06 07:41 some really cool ones use nylon or so, but they can only have one color on white. 2010-10-06 07:45 personally the coolers ones are the transparent that you can put in the laptop lid ,  but this is matter of taste 2010-10-06 07:48 latop lid? can you find an example url? 2010-10-06 07:50 tuxbrain_away: did you find the delete now? 2010-10-06 07:51 I said laptop lead due is tipical , (or at least here in spain) 2010-10-06 07:51 but you can put them anyplace :) 2010-10-06 07:51 yes I see it :) 2010-10-06 07:52 picture elimiated 2010-10-06 07:53 tuxbrain_away: can I repost your NanoWar "Dear friends" message as a Qi Press Release? 2010-10-06 07:54 FSFE has one with it's logo, and we also do one with tuxbrain logo 2010-10-06 07:54 sure 2010-10-06 07:54 thx 2010-10-06 07:54 I need to fill some news and stuff into my new news system :-) 2010-10-06 07:55 I have also redacted one of schist in spanish pending on translation to english, and we have ready one of the 3d scans english/spanish ready to publish 2010-10-06 07:55 http://www.tuxbrain.com/content/schhist-ver-la-evoluci%C3%B3n-del-hardware-colaborativo-en-la-web 2010-10-06 07:56 ah OK, great! 2010-10-06 07:59 ah, damn. my cache removal as too gentle. it didn't actually rebuild everything :-( 2010-10-06 07:59 so, a full kill then. see how *that* goes 2010-10-06 08:12 what are you deleting? 2010-10-06 08:12 I see a _gitsch2ps sometimes popping up in the git/ folder? 2010-10-06 08:12 I forgot where it was, but definitely not in a project-specific location 2010-10-06 08:12 all the files under output/board-qi-avt2/ 2010-10-06 08:13 ah OK, that's what I do 2010-10-06 08:13 but the _gitsch2ps comes and goes while the script is running, and it's in a more global location somewhere I think 2010-10-06 08:13 and the ghosts are back :-( 2010-10-06 08:13 yes, that's okay 2010-10-06 08:14 _gitsch2ps is temporary for checking out the repository. after that, schhist2web copes the few interesting files, i.e., the postscript, to its cache and deletes _gitsch2ps 2010-10-06 08:16 oh, interesting. those ghosts also exist in my build. that's good. now .. where did they creep in ... 2010-10-06 08:18 (my build on fidelio) 2010-10-06 08:19 naturally, they don't show up on my local build. that would be too easy. 2010-10-06 08:37 wpwrak: about fped in qi/openmoko - the only thing Xiangfu is doing on the qi side right now is to do everything necessary to make it a clean Debian package and get it into Debian itself. that may include source code modifications but most likely won't. definitely no feature work. 2010-10-06 08:37 whether you then want to move this Debian packaging stuff to om, and we delete the qi location, or vice versa, is entirely up to you 2010-10-06 08:38 unless you totally dislike the Debian packaging work, I would hope we move it to one location though 2010-10-06 08:38 the openmoko svn location is already known as upstream on the Fedora side, so maybe just move the Debian stuff there once it's all done 2010-10-06 08:38 but in that case, Xiangfu should make sure to always list the openmoko svn location as well whereever it makes sense in the Debian files 2010-10-06 08:39 it's not an urgent decision to make yet, given how fast (slow) things move at Debian, but at some point it would be good if you could decide what you want to do with this Debian packaging stuff, and where to move it 2010-10-06 08:39 maybe in a few weeks... 2010-10-06 09:51 rafa: I added 'Jlime dual booting' right on the homepage now! 2010-10-06 09:51 maybe a bit premature since the patent stuff is still not sorted out I think, but whatever 2010-10-06 09:51 it's 'upcoming' right? 2010-10-06 09:51 http://en.qi-hardware.com 2010-10-06 09:52 wolfspraul: great :) that is more than few love, that's compromise 2010-10-06 09:52 I try to beef up the homepage a little 2010-10-06 09:52 the news section is now auto generated from the 'News' category 2010-10-06 09:53 at the bottom I added a nice visitors chart, but it's still using flash I need to fix that, get rid of Flash 2010-10-06 09:53 I need to work on the upcoming section a bit, and pretty much everything else as well :-) 2010-10-06 09:53 wolfspraul: btw http://www.tuxbrain.com/en/content/solidify-gpl-tool-align-3d-scans 2010-10-06 09:53 also there is a link to the Qi RSS feed right smack in the middle of the hp now 2010-10-06 09:54 we've had almost 300,000 visitors to the homepage so far 2010-10-06 09:54 and we didn't do them a very good service... that will change... 2010-10-06 09:54 wow, 300.000 month? 2010-10-06 09:54 no no 2010-10-06 09:55 since beginning 2010-10-06 09:55 ok :) 2010-10-06 09:55 now maybe 500 / day 2010-10-06 09:55 without news 2010-10-06 09:55 I try to count as conservative as possible, I hope Piwik does that 2010-10-06 09:55 so they take out all visits from people with admin accounts, etc. 2010-10-06 09:56 hey, great text! 2010-10-06 09:56 man you are so ahead of me 2010-10-06 09:56 (talking about Solidify) 2010-10-06 09:57 wolfspraul: several months ago there was some news at qi about "soon jlime also will have a version for nn".. and it finally appeared, so jlime will have a version free of patent problems soon ;) .. at least as kristoffer and me agreed, from your talks about patents which were a good thing 2010-10-06 09:58 great 2010-10-06 09:58 :D 2010-10-06 09:59 are you planing build this free of patent version in qi servers, rafa ? 2010-10-06 09:59 just to put more work on the qi-bot :) 2010-10-06 10:00 wolfspraul: btw this new is from victor ;) you know, show a 3d pic to a designer geek and he will come crazy :P 2010-10-06 10:00 werner is innovating so fast and in so many areas that we can't even keep up writing the news for it... 2010-10-06 10:01 indeed 2010-10-06 10:02 kristianpaul: :) no yet, because we are discussing our own way into jlime projetc yet.. but we can do something in the future. At least it will be possible to have some jlime versions on qi or resellers servers. 2010-10-06 10:07 tuxbrain_away: it's not Alsberger, his last name is Almesberger 2010-10-06 10:08 Al for friends, ok fixing it 2010-10-06 10:08 rafa:ok the idea is a least be able to follow your commits and changes :) 2010-10-06 10:09 rafa: and right now there is a build server for openqrt , why not for OE/Jlime 2010-10-06 10:10 fixed 2010-10-06 10:10 wait wait, we don't want to move everything to one single point of failure 2010-10-06 10:11 kristianpaul: if Jlime is able to do their builds now, they should just continue to use that system 2010-10-06 10:11 of course they can have an account anywhere they like, but I am a big believer in need-driven decision making :-) 2010-10-06 10:13 wolfspraul: about point of failure, no my point was at least keep easy track of their work as is now considered in the dual boot combo 2010-10-06 10:14 wolfspraul: agreed if they are okay they dont need such us build platform 2010-10-06 10:15 I'm sure they have RCS and what not, they are doing this for years already. Let's see what they say they need :-) 2010-10-06 10:15 i not sure but i never saw a commint bot in jlime channel, so i never noticed when something chnage in their code.. 2010-10-06 10:15 kristianpaul: there is a build server in jlime, which I do not use much, but I should. Anyway, we always report the changes in every version writting a changelog, and we try to send that news on every tool we use (ml, forums, wiki), so you know what we did. If you would like to know which new packages will appear, etc.. then you would like to follow the OE news which we use. For the rootfs image you can suggest whatever you want using any tool (bugtracker, 2010-10-06 10:16 back from a nap ... catching up ... 2010-10-06 10:16 rafa: yes what about a git or soemthing that allow technically track the code, beyond reading a changelog wich is great but not fully detailed (about what chnage in the code) 2010-10-06 10:17 i _understand_ if you just want keep your code safe in home a never make it public ;) wich i think is not the issue here 2010-10-06 10:18 but my point is just that (trackable jlime code) no more 2010-10-06 10:18 you had been doinng great work in other areas like wiki, news, etc.. 2010-10-06 10:18 support** 2010-10-06 10:19 wpwrak: tuxbrain_away wrote a great article about Solidify! 2010-10-06 10:19 kristianpaul: which code? examples? we are not writting code all the time. From time to time we write some tools o tiny apps, which we upload (sources). 2010-10-06 10:19 already published, aggregated in the qi planet, etc. 2010-10-06 10:20 wolfspraul: (fped) what does the debian packaging work actually need from upstream ? do i actually have to see that at all ? (such things are usually transparent. given that the package building isn't something that i maintain anyway and that may be driven by external constraints/schedules, that's probably more natural anyway) 2010-10-06 10:20 rafa: sure not all the time, just when you write it :) 2010-10-06 10:20 wpwrak: that is up to you 2010-10-06 10:20 of course we can also keep the debian package separate from 'just the tarball' for good 2010-10-06 10:21 that's why I suggested we first wait and see what happens in the Qi (Debian) fped 2010-10-06 10:21 and once that is more clear, it's up to you to decide 2010-10-06 10:21 rafa: you upload in wich way? to a CVS, git or just put the sources in the servr like a tar ball? 2010-10-06 10:21 was just a heads up how I see it... 2010-10-06 10:21 kristianpaul: and we are not going to use qi servers, we will work to do some version useful for qi or whatever nn projects want to host 2010-10-06 10:21 kristianpaul: at least you will find the tar 2010-10-06 10:21 rafa: i'm not say you should, is just an option,but no rush :) 2010-10-06 10:22 i just want make my point point of code easy to track, thats why we have GIT,CVS, Mercurial, Bazzar, etc... 2010-10-06 10:22 no more :) 2010-10-06 10:22 kristianpaul: yes, but no sure why we should use qi servers. Can you explain further why ? 2010-10-06 10:22 just dont get angry with me later ;) 2010-10-06 10:23 kristianpaul: no.. is okey.. but I do not see your points yet 2010-10-06 10:23 :/ 2010-10-06 10:23 is Jlime using a CVS, GIT repo? 2010-10-06 10:23 from i see no, just tarballs all the time 2010-10-06 10:23 rafa: yes, thanks! :-) 2010-10-06 10:24 is not easy to tracka  tarball at all 2010-10-06 10:24 rafa: about qi severs i just pointed because indefero, or build server because i tought you dint have one (wich is not the case after you clarify it) 2010-10-06 10:25 tuxbrain_away, nice article 2010-10-06 10:25 so lets focus this chat in why you dont commint your code (whenever it came up) in some version control system 2010-10-06 10:25 tuxbrain_away, send my congrats to victor 2010-10-06 10:25 :) 2010-10-06 10:26 kristianpaul: every dev collaborating use his/her own svn/git whatever.. we already have a jlime development server but it is for devs so far and we do not use it much. What I do not understand is which things your want to have on git/cvs/whatever.. If you mean for the rootfs imagem which is a simple image made for OE plus extra packages, I do not see what things to track there. 2010-10-06 10:26 I will forward it to him, he will be very happy :) 2010-10-06 10:26 made from OE* 2010-10-06 10:27 rafa: not the root fs, just the small customozation you made to Jlime bahave well in the nanonote 2010-10-06 10:27 or is it in OE upstream? 2010-10-06 10:27 kristianpaul: and B_Lizzard is doing that job internally, which kristoffer (and him perhaps) finally sends/commits into OE 2010-10-06 10:27 i alwasy have the dobut about it 2010-10-06 10:27 ahh :) 2010-10-06 10:27 wolfspraul: (fped) it's not very common to host packaging metadata in the source projects. i've done it a few times, but since i'm not the one pushing those packages anyway, it just means that this data becomes stale and packers just follow their own workflow, which means there's the metadata in their distro's repository, whichever form it takes 2010-10-06 10:28 rafa: so all the especific chnages for the nanotnoet and OE are comitted in OE, Okay? 2010-10-06 10:28 kristianpaul: which doubs?.. you want to see the "mkdir /etc/extras ; cp wallpaper.png /etc/extras/" script tracked? :) .. well that will be into OE we hope 2010-10-06 10:28 kristianpaul: well, no directly. We want to have something stable first 2010-10-06 10:29 (solidify) hah, almost forgot about it :) 2010-10-06 10:29 kristianpaul: is it a work in progress.. ultra hiper beta.. still if you do not see bugs easily :) It is full of workarounds which we report from time to time. 2010-10-06 10:30 rafa: no that like a png, but maybe like adding full support for keyboard, or startup scripts 2010-10-06 10:30 kristianpaul: but nobody takes care because the workaround could hide some problem 2010-10-06 10:31 tuxbrain_away: nice article, thanks !! :) 2010-10-06 10:31 kristianpaul: the current image has the OE startup scripts + just one startx script made by jlime 2010-10-06 10:31 (and i'm glad that you liked my description. all the while when writing it, i felt that this would be incomprehensible and really ought to have a picture :) 2010-10-06 10:31 tuxbrain_away: grat indeed :) 2010-10-06 10:32 great* 2010-10-06 10:32 tuxbrain_away: (thanks ... to victor :) 2010-10-06 10:33 tuxbrain_away: how is victor BTW? ;) is he around on this channel? 2010-10-06 10:34 rafa: (oe) so those receipes and patches that you've made but that haven't been sent to OE yet, where to they live ? 2010-10-06 10:34 rafa: ok 2010-10-06 10:35 wpwrak: machine devs or dev jlime server. kristoffer has commit rights into OE. And no me, other dev (B_Lizzard) is doing his job there. 2010-10-06 10:36 Don't look at me, he did everything. 2010-10-06 10:36 I'm just a bus boy. 2010-10-06 10:36 wpwrak: recipes, I did just one, for the minimal rootfs image. B_Lizzard is doing some more for the tiny tools around 2010-10-06 10:37 rafa: so when you make a jlime test image for, say, the ben, you ask all the other developers to put their stuff onto the dev jlime server and then you run the build ? 2010-10-06 10:37 wpwrak: or do you think that we will do 1.557.876 patches for a rootfs image which is the angstrom recipe image with few adds 2010-10-06 10:38 rafa: naw, but i would think you may have a number of receipes that you're still testing 2010-10-06 10:38 wpwrak: no.. I just build the angstron recipe image with few extra packages (what is: I took the angstrom recipe image and did a new one for muffinman with extra packages from OE) 2010-10-06 10:39 wpwrak: perfectly fine with me [fped] 2010-10-06 10:39 let's wait how this goes first anyway, then we settle, even though you already know how what you want to settle on 2010-10-06 10:39 know now 2010-10-06 10:40 wpwrak: no recipes yet.. it is not something like : I know what I am doing to have the final image. It is just a work in progress.. I needed to write several tools from scratch for that tiny screen. But, tomorrow, I could say.. nahh.. i do not want how it looks, I will start a new one to compare. 2010-10-06 10:40 rafa: just o end our thread/chat, i'll go to OE and digg about the nanonote supprot there, and ask you/ or read your tar balls for the cosmetic work is not commited there. 2010-10-06 10:40 s/o/to 2010-10-06 10:40 wpwrak: so until I feel that we have something useful for the some day stable version we will do prototyes.. new stuff, like tiny tools written from scratch are uploaded (sources and packages). 2010-10-06 10:40 rafa: he is ok, sleepless as I am, and doing web changes, incharge of accounting of tuxbrain, his other job, pursuing me to deliver administrative things on time, and rising me up when I'm down, all with a smile in his face, he let me the inet public relations 2010-10-06 10:41 wpwrak: and we use OE as tool to have the minimal rootfs images with which we play 2010-10-06 10:41 wolfspraul: yes. i think the current structure should pre pretty much the normal case for packaging. i.e., upstream doesn't know/care about who is using it. package maintainers keep track of upstream. otherwise, you get a cyclic dependency graph ;-) 2010-10-06 10:41 wolfspraul: whether svn.openmoko.org is a good long-term home, however, is a different question 2010-10-06 10:43 wpwrak: I mean, we are not using the OE to build the final rootfs image, just for the minimal one which is already into OE. For the tiny tools we will see which ones are the best to include into OE. So you can see that we use, currently, OE to build the feed of packages and the minimal rootfs, no as a tool to develop the minimal rootfs. We would like, but we prefer to wait a bit to understand which is the 2010-10-06 10:44 rafa: okay, that workflow sounds pretty normal. so the small stuff that you're experimenting with, that is kept in per-developer repositories ? 2010-10-06 10:44 best solution to develop. Then.. when we are happy with some idea then we will continue adding recipes and stuff into OE. That means 2010-10-06 10:44 that we are not happy how it is yet (we=all the few guys in jlime) 2010-10-06 10:45 rafa: understood. you only put "mature" things into OE upstream. hence the question what you are using. since some things will live a while in that intermediate state. (or may even get killed if it turns out they're not good) 2010-10-06 10:45 wpwrak: yes.. that is the idea. 2010-10-06 10:46 ah :) 2010-10-06 10:46 wpwrak: being nn a bit different in user experience than hp jornada.. we are learning a bit how is the best way to use the machine ;) 2010-10-06 10:46 yup, exactly. you're still doing a lot of "polishing" work. this all makes perfect sense 2010-10-06 10:49 rafa: what is surprising, and i think that's what kristianpaul meant, is that you don't seem to have a place where you combine the jlime things that are still being tested. 2010-10-06 10:49 tuxbrain_away: how may visitors to tuxbrain.com do you have nowadays? 2010-10-06 10:49 yay !, somebody else got my point :) 2010-10-06 10:51 wpwrak: combine.. if you follow the links in muffinman wiki page you will find all the stuff of it. If you want to know how it is combined.. then you just read one script of 30 lines maybe? which does the modifications to the rootfs image built by OE :) 2010-10-06 10:52 lol 2010-10-06 10:52 .. 2010-10-06 10:52 kristianpaul: hwoever, i think that's something that should live entirely inside the jlime universe. no need to create dependencies at that level between qi-hw and jlime. in fact, such dependencies could become a problem if, say, rafa is testing some MP3 player and thus would have receipes and what not for that one 2010-10-06 10:53 good point (jlime universe) 2010-10-06 10:53 rafa: (combine) i don't mean the making of the rootfs. i mean, how do you bring the meta-data (recepies, patches, whatever) to the place at which you are making the rootfs ? 2010-10-06 10:55 rafa: the "standard" way would be to have a project-wide revision control system into which such things are checked in. so when someone wants to build a rootfs, they just check that out and run the bitbake process. 2010-10-06 10:56 wpwrak: I did not do any patches whatever into OE to build the rootfs. The rootfs is just the angstrom rootfs image recipe that I copied with the muffinman name and added there a bit more of package names. 2010-10-06 10:56 rafa: but you wrote before that there is no central revision control system for jlime and that things are distributed instead. 2010-10-06 10:57 rafa: yes, i understand that you're not changing upstream :) but what if, say, B_Lizzard wants your rootfs plus a package he's working on ? does he have to ask you to mail him your additions ? 2010-10-06 10:57 wpwrak: he does that in his machine at home and show the idea, at least :) 2010-10-06 10:58 rafa: alright, but how does he get your changes. the changes that are not in OE yet. 2010-10-06 10:58 wpwrak: again.. I do not have changes.. it is just a script which takes the image built from OE and add some stuff. NO more :) 2010-10-06 10:59 rafa: but "add some stuff" is a change, no ? 2010-10-06 10:59 wpwrak: and all of that stuff is found if you follow the links 2010-10-06 11:00 ah .. wait. lemme see if i get this. you generate a "generic" rootfs image from OE. then you modify this binary rootfs to add your experimental changes ? 2010-10-06 11:01 yes.. and experimental is just (cp wallpaper, cp this-game, cp something more.. cp few icons, exit) 2010-10-06 11:02 http://jlime.com/wiki/index.php/Jlime_Muffinman -> The requested operation could not be completed. Cyclic Link Detected. 2010-10-06 11:02 and something_more are few tools written .. sources and packages are on the site. and the sources do not change. or at least those are few tinies to change a lot 2010-10-06 11:03 http://www.jlime.com/wiki/documentation/user/nanonote/muffinman 2010-10-06 11:03 wpwrak: i find that link as well if I check muffinman and jlime in google. I do not get the proper link that B_Lizzard pointed 2010-10-06 11:04 B_Lizzard: thanks ! 2010-10-06 11:04 B_Lizzard: no idea why, you? 2010-10-06 11:04 Mail administrator@google.com 2010-10-06 11:04 rafa: (cp) ah, i see. so the extra packages would be the ones from from http://jlime.com/downloads/repository/extra-packages/nanonote/ 2010-10-06 11:04 The idea is getting everything in OE 2010-10-06 11:05 I haven't followed the discussion but that's my idea 2010-10-06 11:05 B_Lizzard: understood. but while you're still testing, things don't get pushed yet, or do they ? 2010-10-06 11:05 wpwrak: yes.. and some of them are there (on extra packages) because we wrote those to test how thoes look or some of them did not built well from OE 2010-10-06 11:05 Things will be pushed in a few days 2010-10-06 11:05 Most of the base system is done 2010-10-06 11:05 What remains for me is to port applications 2010-10-06 11:06 B_Lizzard: like fileselector? or is it there? 2010-10-06 11:06 rafa: (extra) precisely. so everyone who is working on those things that are still not ready for pushing to OE will just upload their work to http://jlime.com/downloads/repository/extra-packages/nanonote/ ? 2010-10-06 11:06 fileselector segaults, I'll fix that 2010-10-06 11:07 I produced a testing userland here 2010-10-06 11:07 http://jlime.com/downloads/releases/muffinman/userlands/muffinman-testing-image.tar.bz2 2010-10-06 11:07 wpwrak: yes, if he wants.. like an anarchy :).. but well, at least it would be useful if he/she asks what to do :) 2010-10-06 11:07 B_Lizzard: yup, i understand that these things are transitional. i'm just curious how you guys manage those things while they're not yet in OE. 2010-10-06 11:07 This is somewhat unrelated to rafa's work, but in time both will merge 2010-10-06 11:08 I implement things rafa has done in OE 2010-10-06 11:08 In the form of recipes 2010-10-06 11:08 For now these things live in my PC 2010-10-06 11:08 okay, so it's basically an ad hoc process. everyone does their thing, and if you want to combine, you need to discuss each case 2010-10-06 11:08 For now. 2010-10-06 11:08 I'm working on implementing the stuff rafa has done into OE 2010-10-06 11:09 I've only had the Nanonote for what, 5 days? 2010-10-06 11:09 So stuff is moving fast. 2010-10-06 11:09 B_Lizzard: nobody is complaining about you're work ;-))) 2010-10-06 11:09 muffinman? Zappa? 2010-10-06 11:10 It comes with a complementary mustache 2010-10-06 11:10 hehe 2010-10-06 11:10 wpwrak: well, because we are few ones we already know what others/we did before, so no much to discuss.. we discuss from time to time to do something and no get bored :P 2010-10-06 11:10 B_Lizzard: i'm just curious about how that workflow is organized. 2010-10-06 11:10 It's not. 2010-10-06 11:10 For now 2010-10-06 11:10 *grin* 2010-10-06 11:10 i knew it ! 2010-10-06 11:10 :D 2010-10-06 11:10 kristianpaul: bingo ! ;-) 2010-10-06 11:10 B_Lizzard: am the owner of jlime IIRC 2010-10-06 11:11 I AM 2010-10-06 11:11 My work is basically flailing around, trying to assemble bits and pieces from /dev/urandom into workable programs 2010-10-06 11:11 BEGONE 2010-10-06 11:12 In any case, the main issues are with software 2010-10-06 11:12 B_Lizzard: so the goodies rafa does, how do you get them ? does he mail you the patches/tools/etc. ? or does he have an svn or such somewhere ? 2010-10-06 11:12 Most of the stuff is upstream work 2010-10-06 11:12 There aren't many custom things which are of use to me 2010-10-06 11:12 for me it is like an anarchy.. but at the same time we have a leader/main developer :) 2010-10-06 11:13 Until we get our own OE branch going along with a git server it will remain so 2010-10-06 11:13 so it is confussing.. he is a dictator surely 2010-10-06 11:13 rafa: if you ask everyone in the team who is the leader, how many answers will you get ? ;-) 2010-10-06 11:13 Stuff will end up in upstream OE in time 2010-10-06 11:14 I'm the only one with op, so anyone who says otherwise is banned fo life 2010-10-06 11:14 B_Lizzard: yes. it was that branch and git that kristianpaul and me were trying to locate on the map :) 2010-10-06 11:14 wpwrak: ;-) .. few days ago some guy said that he is the owner of the Mendoza LUG  and that he has a certificate which says that 2010-10-06 11:14 wpwrak: so I could try something like that 2010-10-06 11:14 wpwrak, I'm working on that too 2010-10-06 11:14 B_Lizzard: (op) not here ;-) 2010-10-06 11:15 :) 2010-10-06 11:15 rafa: i support anarchy as good/open comunication protocols :) 2010-10-06 11:16 ok i just can say be Free guys !! :) 2010-10-06 11:16 kristianpaul: yeah :) .. at least we use the chat channel :P.. you can imagine, no chat, no mails.. just a ftp server 2010-10-06 11:16 :| 2010-10-06 11:16 :P 2010-10-06 11:17 While we're at it, I'd like a Nanonote based on the dual core atom and 2GB of RAM please 2010-10-06 11:17 I heard it's super efficient 2010-10-06 11:17 B_Lizzard: easy.. but what about the screen? 2010-10-06 11:17 Make it a *Retina Display* 2010-10-06 11:17 B_Lizzard: don't forget the full HD 3D dual-head display while you're at it. without making the device larger, naturally 2010-10-06 11:18 I'll contact the suits at Qi about it 2010-10-06 11:18 B_Lizzard:  just pay 10.000 unit in advance and we will do it 2010-10-06 11:18 :) 2010-10-06 11:18 tuxbrain_away: I heard that before 2010-10-06 11:18 china rules? :) 2010-10-06 11:18 no wolfwang rules :) 2010-10-06 11:18 tuxbrain_away: better make that 100 kU. with just 10 kU you don't break even. been there, seen it sink :) 2010-10-06 11:19 a supplementary link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm7uJ74XFI&list=QL&feature=BF :-D 2010-10-06 11:19 tuxbrain_away: of course, if it's pre-paid, then things may be okay. there are many nice countries where B_Lizzard won't find you ;-) 2010-10-06 11:19 for 10kU we do it, for 100kU we do it cheaper 2010-10-06 11:20 Did anyone check the userland out? 2010-10-06 11:21 (hear my whistles in the audience :-D ) 2010-10-06 11:21 if he has enough money to pay 100kU in advance for a such a project there is no so much countries where I can hide... 2010-10-06 11:22 tuxbrain_away: well, you'll be rich, he'll be poor ;-) 2010-10-06 11:23 tuxbrain_away: and even if he's still rich, the'll eventually get robbed while searching all the shady corners of the world for you :) 2010-10-06 11:23 tuxbrain_away: victor: great :) .. so a good partner .. 2010-10-06 11:24 rafa:the best :) 2010-10-06 11:24 wolfspraul: nice C++ [in german] http://www.heise.de/developer/artikel/C-Vor-und-Nachteile-des-d-Zeiger-Idioms-Teil-1-1097781.html 2010-10-06 11:24 DocScrutinizer: wtf is that? ok at least the music has started :) 2010-10-06 11:25 c u later guys 2010-10-06 11:26 bye 2010-10-06 11:27 I quit 2010-10-06 11:32 is this text serious or a joke 2010-10-06 11:32 you never really know with C++ 2010-10-06 11:32 that language is the biggest screw-up and most over-hyped pos ever in programming in the last 30 years at least 2010-10-06 11:33 wolfspraul: it does seem that the guy is serious ;-) 2010-10-06 11:33 well it is that bad 2010-10-06 11:33 actually only scratching the surface of the badness, but still 2010-10-06 11:33 so yeah, maybe it is serious 2010-10-06 11:34 wolfspraul: and it would indeed solve a problem i've noticed as well. the simple (in C) task of splitting a big messy function into parts, without changing the publicly visible header file 2010-10-06 11:34 yes it won't work 2010-10-06 11:35 :-) 2010-10-06 11:35 I have written much cleaner and more object oriented code in C than would even be possible in C++ 2010-10-06 11:35 wolfspraul: it's probably no surprise that KiCad has quite a number of deeply obscure huge functions. simple because what should be a local implementation detail becomes something that looks much bigger 2010-10-06 11:35 unless you only use the C subset of C++, that is :-) 2010-10-06 11:35 heh ;-) 2010-10-06 11:35 back 2010-10-06 11:36 not sure why I announce it, must be some misplaced ego thing 2010-10-06 11:36 in years before we met, I was a full-time coder, mostly C and C++, but also others as needed 2010-10-06 11:37 and I admit, I also had the goal of understanding and using 100% of C++, reading the entire Stroustrup cover to cover etc. 2010-10-06 11:37 painful memories 2010-10-06 11:38 wolfspraul, Im having a hard time deciding between C vs C++. You would say, stick with C? 2010-10-06 11:38 sins of the youth :) i started with BASIC :) 2010-10-06 11:38 kristoffer: oh my god, what a question 2010-10-06 11:38 are you serious? 2010-10-06 11:39 _PLLEEAASSSE_, for the love of god, stick with C 2010-10-06 11:39 yes, unfortunantly. Im doing a programming project on the side :) and been considering rewriting everything to C++, just to get it fancy objectified. I have a fantasy that it will be easier to expand then 2010-10-06 11:40 :D 2010-10-06 11:40 kristianpaul: my advice: stick with C. but it's okay to use C++ while at the toilet. 2010-10-06 11:40 C is the more object oriented language than C++ 2010-10-06 11:40 C++ is a confused piece of nonsense 2010-10-06 11:40 I speak from experience (which of course you are free to ignore) 2010-10-06 11:40 many years experience 2010-10-06 11:41 one problem with C is that it takes a long time to really understand. longer than many other languages. of course, with C++ that goal may be completely unattainable (or self-defeating) 2010-10-06 11:42 some of the beauty and love for detail of C you will only discover when trying to write a compiler (or similar) 2010-10-06 11:43 you can become a master of C in a few years, and then focus on using this tool to solve a problem you have 2010-10-06 11:43 with C++, even after 10 years you will still be discovering new layers of nonsense regularly 2010-10-06 11:44 and your mind will be spinning with all the templates, STL, multiple virtual mega inheritance, and what not crazy idea some other C++ coder might have had that you need to decipher 2010-10-06 11:44 hehe 2010-10-06 11:44 kristoffer: I would suggest this 2010-10-06 11:45 if someone wants to push you towards C++, just tell them that you love object orientation, and C is the more object oriented language 2010-10-06 11:45 if they don't agree, tell them they may have mixed up something 2010-10-06 11:45 leave it there 2010-10-06 11:45 :-) 2010-10-06 11:45 Ive used C for 6-7 years or so now, and I really like it. What Im pondering is if its easier to keep a large code base in C++ rather than C. Or if its better just to spend my time writing more organized 2010-10-06 11:45 :D 2010-10-06 11:46 the latter!!!! 2010-10-06 11:46 who gave you this idea that C++ would help you with that? 2010-10-06 11:47 the opposite is true, the larger the project the better it is manageable with C 2010-10-06 11:47 even a small project can be blown up significantly with C++ 2010-10-06 11:47 kristoffer: would the linux kernel be a sufficiently large codebase to convince you ? :) 2010-10-06 11:48 a large one will totally crack down under loads of nonsense 2010-10-06 11:48 wolfspraul: i thnk that's why they invented refacturing :) 2010-10-06 11:49 you can code in C99 and get some of the more useful features of C++, like "for (int i = 0" 2010-10-06 11:49 the C++ language does have something going for it 2010-10-06 11:50 you only need to remember one thing about it, which is to never use its features 2010-10-06 11:50 and a bool type 2010-10-06 11:50 if you run into a C++ compiler, only use the C subset 2010-10-06 11:50 to be safe, use the -C99 command line options or such to avoid making a grave mistake 2010-10-06 11:50 wolfspraul, wpwrak other coders around me are talking alot about C++ and D so thats why Im having this aquired doubts 2010-10-06 11:50 typical C++ workflow: monday 08:00 to 19:00 fix bugs. 19:00-21:00 write something new. monday 21:00 to sunday 04:00, refactoring. sunday 04:00-05:00 get really drunk. sunday 05:00-12:00 hit your head against table, wall, door, etc. sunday 12:00 pass out. and the cycle repeats. 2010-10-06 11:51 wolfspraul: As long as you never try to accomplish anything with C++, it'll never let you down, eh? ;) 2010-10-06 11:51 kristoffer: they're scared of your efficiency and envy your happiness. so they want to destroy both. 2010-10-06 11:51 kristoffer: D might be an actual step forwards, although I never used it myself 2010-10-06 11:51 osokuro: yes! 2010-10-06 11:51 :D 2010-10-06 11:52 C++ is more like a step sideways imo: it has useful features, but the immense complexity is a huge problem 2010-10-06 11:53 wolfspraul: (C++ as C) that should also help with benighted APIs that are written for C++. you can limit the exposure :) 2010-10-06 11:53 One thing that I have noticed though is the impressive ways a simple program can segfault, since it in C++ doesnt run linear in the same sense as C 2010-10-06 11:53 mth: agreed. the 'immense complexity' means that you always need to be careful to not use 99% of what the language offers 2010-10-06 11:53 that's a hard discipline to hold up 2010-10-06 11:53 depending on what you are writing, Java might also be an option: you get the classes from C++ with only a fraction of the complexity 2010-10-06 11:53 OK i reduce that to 95% 2010-10-06 11:54 What, if you never use C++ it'll only let you down 5% of the time? 2010-10-06 11:55 personally I love Python, but that is a good choice for a very different set of problems than C is 2010-10-06 11:56 wolfgang's IRC client, written in C++, just crashed 2010-10-06 11:57 Are there any limits on the location of the uImage in a partition, with regards to u-boot? 2010-10-06 11:57 wpwrak, lol 2010-10-06 11:58 wpwrak: with all that complexity there's plenty of room for emergent attitude problems. 2010-10-06 12:00 It's not buggy, just mean-spirited. 2010-10-06 12:00 kristoffer: NAND or uSD partition ? 2010-10-06 12:00 uSD 2010-10-06 12:01 kristoffer: you mean physcial location (occupied blocks) or depth in the directory hierarchy ? 2010-10-06 12:01 loading file "/boot/uImage" from mmc device 0:1 (xxa1) \0 ext2fs_devread() read outside partition sector 270008416 \0 ** File not found /boot/uImage 2010-10-06 12:02 Ill try and reinstall it and see what happens. just weird. 2010-10-06 12:03 that sounds like a bug or bad filesystem/partition 2010-10-06 12:03 ah, how big is the uSD ? 2010-10-06 12:04 i thnk there is a bug in u-boot that affects uSDs of 8 or 16 GB (and maybe larger) 2010-10-06 12:08 wpwrak, only 4G so it sounds weird 2010-10-06 12:08 Ill reformat and install 2010-10-06 12:12 wpwrak: thanks, actually  i was reading the other time then an ANSI C book 2010-10-06 12:12 stick to C and ASM for low level things 2010-10-06 12:13 and python just for fun :) 2010-10-06 12:14 now i can trought to the windows a C++ book i have some wherer in the house 2010-10-06 12:14 :D 2010-10-06 12:14 kristianpaul: keep it for a barbecue ? 2010-10-06 12:15 lol 2010-10-06 12:23 waves 2010-10-06 12:23 Arghh... 2010-10-06 12:24 Hiya, FrankieBlues. 2010-10-06 12:49 notes to a left wolfspraul that he is, in fact, still alive, and even close to doing US distribution of Ben Nanonote. 2010-10-06 12:58 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: clean up the Build-Depends.  http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/a6136d0 2010-10-06 12:58 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: use the new version rules. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/22104c3 2010-10-06 12:58 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add the manual page manual/fped.1 http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/9525b6b 2010-10-06 12:58 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add debian/fped.manpages  for install manpage http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/21e7a43 2010-10-06 12:58 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add DESTDIR to Makefile. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/af26e0b 2010-10-06 12:58 djbclark: you are distributing in the US right? 2010-10-06 12:59 kristianpaul: Will be soon. Finding a fufillment house was fail due to minimum monthly requirements of various types (but research will hopefully be useful for future). 2010-10-06 13:00 So I'm getting a contractor to ship them. Just brought all 50 over to his place a few days ago. But it will still be a bit before they go up on the website. 2010-10-06 13:01 Also http://librewrt.org is near a place where we can offer it preloaded as an option, so also kinda-sorta waiting on that. 2010-10-06 13:02 nice 2010-10-06 13:03 probably has email he need to reply to from wolfgang, like everyone else... the "put important things off until you can reply to them completly and thoughtfully" method isn't working out so well :-/ 2010-10-06 13:04 (also yet another friend-in-crisis situation, mostly over now... arg) 2010-10-06 13:04 if the Ben hit US market will be awesome, north americans really buy lot of stuff :) 2010-10-06 13:06 djbclark: what about FSF/RMS tought about this copyleft hardware movement? 2010-10-06 13:06 can you share us soemthing that are aware off abbout this topic? 2010-10-06 13:08 may be as librewrt get ready for Ben they may recomend the device? 2010-10-06 13:08 kristianpaul: so FSF/RMS still come at it from a very software-centric POV; they just don't want anything that the user would usually modify to be nonfree software. Unfortunatly this sometimes clashes with the realities of the hardware world, but I have high hopes that eventually we will get to a place that will satisfy everyone. 2010-10-06 13:08 as the did int the openmoko times 2010-10-06 13:08 when iphone was introducing in the market 2010-10-06 13:09 Hi All. I have uploaded a fped Debian package to : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/fped/downloads/54/ 2010-10-06 13:09 (the manpage is not finish. :) 2010-10-06 13:09 kristianpaul: Even more so than with Openmoko, I'm unaware of anything other than the GNU Distribution that would have prevented FSF from endorsing Ben Nanonote, and LibreWRT should fix that. However you should be aware that not everyone really wants or things FSF endorsement will be useful; thae prof or disproof will be if there is a sizable spike in sales after it happens or not :-) 2010-10-06 13:10 :) 2010-10-06 13:10 xiangfu: great ! 2010-10-06 13:10 xiangfu: go sleep then ! :) 2010-10-06 13:10 kristianpaul: yes. :) 2010-10-06 13:13 see you. 2010-10-06 13:24 Does anyone know if an .ipk of the Sarien interpreter ever got built? all I can seem to find is a .diff 2010-10-06 17:53 hey bartbes, any news for nlove and a sdl_sound module? 2010-10-06 17:53 SiENcE: sorry man, swamped 2010-10-06 17:53 rl's a bitch 2010-10-06 17:53 yep i know 2010-10-06 17:54 :/ 2010-10-06 17:54 anyway, I should get some free time in about 3 weeks 2010-10-06 17:54 but.. ehm.. *should* 2010-10-06 17:55 what else is on todo for nlove? 2010-10-06 17:55 there are some missing functions like setlinewidth aso 2010-10-06 17:56 yeah, graphics lacks quite some features 2010-10-06 17:56 because I had to rewrite it 2010-10-06 17:56 completely 2010-10-06 17:57 yea i know 2010-10-06 17:57 what about the nice particle system? 2010-10-06 17:57 not possible? 2010-10-06 18:00 it's probably possible 2010-10-06 18:00 but tbh I'm not really good at graphics :P 2010-10-06 18:01 be glad I got this far 2010-10-06 18:01 :P 2010-10-06 18:03 me too 2010-10-06 18:03 but its cool for prototyping 2010-10-06 18:04 if we know what does not work on nlove, we can remember this during development on pc 2010-10-06 18:04 yeah, I should all wrap it up 2010-10-06 18:04 but as I said, swamped 2010-10-06 18:05 is there a thread in love forum? 2010-10-06 18:05 about nlove? 2010-10-06 18:05 or is it your own secret project? 2010-10-06 18:06 it is kind of.. hidden 2010-10-06 18:06 the irc regulars know about it 2010-10-06 18:06 or should.. 2010-10-06 18:07 love2d irc? 2010-10-06 18:07 or here? 2010-10-06 18:09 #love 2010-10-06 18:16 i have to go now.ok cya 2010-10-06 18:29 bartbes: btw, i'm a bit puzzled about this love thingy of yours. i see that there are some very nice games that have been implemented with it, yet what people talk about here tends to be at the level of worms or pong. why the gap ? i.e., why isn't there a huge flood of existing sexy games that come to the ben with love ? 2010-10-06 18:30 wpwrak: well because of the few people who know about it 2010-10-06 18:34 I have a question what is the correct expresion for  working time in a job 2010-10-06 18:34 I first heard about löve on the Pandora boards. I remember there were concerns that some of its dependencies interfered with its portability (which is one of the otherwise unquestionably awesome things about Lua.) 2010-10-06 18:34 in spanish is horario laboral 2010-10-06 18:37 the google translation doesn't sounds me very acurate "working hours" 2010-10-06 18:37 qbject: probably opengl though 2010-10-06 18:37 sounds about right.. 2010-10-06 18:38 or at least, my knowledge of french hints at that 2010-10-06 18:40 bartbes: so love-based games aren't automatically portable to all platforms supported by love ? 2010-10-06 18:41 technically speaking it isn't officially supported yet 2010-10-06 18:41 tuxbrain_away: depends on the perspective. can be working hours, office hours, opening hours, etc. 2010-10-06 18:41 and no, nlove will be following the uLove spec 2010-10-06 18:42 note that uLove games will be fully compatible with 'full' love 2010-10-06 18:42 ah, nlove = nanonote-love ? 2010-10-06 18:42 seems working ours is apropiate then thanks a lot #translation :P 2010-10-06 18:43 bartbes: Yep, now that you mention it, OpenGL was one issue, especially as the Pandora runs OpenGL ES. 2010-10-06 18:43 well, nlove runs on SDL 2010-10-06 18:43 tuxbrain_away: or work hours :) maybe that's more common. 2010-10-06 18:53 thinks nLove is a pretty sexy idea 2010-10-06 18:58 am i allowed to say that? 2010-10-06 20:53 bartbes: i wonder if there's a leisure suit larry derivate on it yet. would be fitting ;) 2010-10-06 22:06 aisa: you there? 2010-10-06 22:07 mirko looked into the problem with owner and permission info for the data/files in openwrt not being copied into the rootfs, but he couldn't reproduce the problem and says owners and permissions are copied into the rootfs 2010-10-06 22:07 do you still have this problem? 2010-10-06 23:57 wolfspraul: I am, though I suspect I'm now too late.