2010-10-05 00:00 but i don't intend to spread patent knowledge. it's actually the contrary. i want clear and reasonably simple rules that you can apply without knowing all that stuff 2010-10-05 00:00 wpwrak: yes, I think so.. and I have checked a time ago which packages have the offensive software inside.. so I can check my notes and to update those 2010-10-05 00:00 anybody can open a shop, collect some ip, start 'programs' to enforce/milk them etc. 2010-10-05 00:00 how do you want to explain this to anyone? especially rules to be safe from this, in general? impossible... 2010-10-05 00:02 as a first try, you can just list the rules, without justification :) 2010-10-05 00:02 or with very terse justification. some of these concepts can be considered public knowledge 2010-10-05 00:02 I think that's one reason why the FSF stays so strictly out of this, and only focus on copyright issues 2010-10-05 00:02 there might be sisvel-like companies in other industries too, like medical etc. 2010-10-05 00:02 I think if you want to be successful as a sisvel-like company, you do in fact need to focus on some industries, collect patent pools that are meaningfully and effectively enforceable etc. 2010-10-05 00:02 you cannot just randomly pick patents and industries, I think that wouldn't make money 2010-10-05 00:02 I need some rest.. let me write the ideas in few hours.. so we can offer something from jlime ;) 2010-10-05 00:02 you're probably right 2010-10-05 00:03 wolfspraul: wpwrak : thanks a lot 2010-10-05 00:04 but that doesn't matter for jlime :) what jlime needs is a set of action items that yield something you can accept. and what you can accept is largely your own judgement call, since there are so many gray areas 2010-10-05 00:05 of course, we can analyze the situations, just like we did, so it doens't have to be completely arbitrary. but at the end of the day, it has to be what wolfgang, tuxbrain, probably pulster consider a tolerable risk level 2010-10-05 00:05 or we just accept the tax in some countries 2010-10-05 00:06 in fact, if Sisvel would make their licensing program even a little bit more effective, maybe people like pulster or tuxbrain would like to (!) choose that route 2010-10-05 00:06 so maybe we should encourage sisvel? 2010-10-05 00:06 make it easier for smaller shops to effectively pay 2010-10-05 00:06 online shop? 2010-10-05 00:06 accept credit cards? 2010-10-05 00:06 :-) 2010-10-05 00:06 also, the link instructions are pretty clear, i think. a) don't link to jlime.com, except b) if it's something that is not related to the problem packages and isn't "above" material related to them in the hierarchy of the site. if you don't understand b), just follow a). 2010-10-05 00:07 ;-) 2010-10-05 00:07 it's a bit sad to punish 80% of the world for a strange system that the other 20% setup 2010-10-05 00:07 yes seriously! 2010-10-05 00:07 I am serious. 2010-10-05 00:07 well, you mentioned the kind of lock-in they have in mind 2010-10-05 00:07 Pulster and Tuxbrain would happily pay the 3.50 USD / device rate, if they only could at those low volumes. 2010-10-05 00:07 the problem is a 6-figure down payment 2010-10-05 00:07 their problem is that those patents expire soon. so they want to lock you into long-running contracts. once you sign these, you're trapped forever. 2010-10-05 00:07 and a contract that ties you forever into the sisvel world 2010-10-05 00:08 exactly 2010-10-05 00:08 even if they waive the down payment, they'd still have your balls 2010-10-05 00:08 sure, I am just describing another possible solution to the patent problem 2010-10-05 00:08 see it as a country-like tax 2010-10-05 00:08 we are not complaining about different VAT/import duties levels either 2010-10-05 00:08 i still like my idea with the two islands and tall walls ;) 2010-10-05 00:08 or are we? 2010-10-05 00:08 so we are not 2010-10-05 00:09 why not let Sisvel tax certain things in certain countries? 2010-10-05 00:09 wolfspraul: I came back to the computer specifically to post about my branch proposal.Â Â Thank you for posting the link to IRC. 2010-10-05 00:09 I'm off to bed, good night! 2010-10-05 00:09 I am telling you - _if_ joining the Sisvel licensing program would be easier, Openmoko, Pulster, Tuxbrain would all have joined long ago. 2010-10-05 00:09 we wouldn't even have this discussion 2010-10-05 00:09 gn8 2010-10-05 00:10 yes, i suppose so. working around that mess also has a cost. and it's still risky. 2010-10-05 00:10 correct 2010-10-05 00:10 and we punish the 80%of the world that have nothing to do with this anyway 2010-10-05 00:10 but it's not an option, because Sisvel is not good enough :-) 2010-10-05 00:10 we should write an earnest letter to them to improve their system 2010-10-05 00:10 make it easier to join 2010-10-05 00:11 send small amounts effectively 2010-10-05 00:11 of course, making a stand also sends a signal. no matter how small. 2010-10-05 00:11 the transaction costs at Sisvel are too high right now 2010-10-05 00:11 I want an online shop and credit card payments. 2010-10-05 00:11 then they ship me some key that I can use to sign certificates with, that will then let my shipment pass customs. 2010-10-05 00:11 come on Sisvel! 2010-10-05 00:11 invest in the future 2010-10-05 00:12 become a true global player 2010-10-05 00:12 private taxation models 2010-10-05 00:12 in the 1970es and 1980es, there were lots of airplane hijackings. until it became standard procedure not to pay and to fight back instead. then that stopped fairly quickly. doing business with extortionists just makes thigs worse for everyone. 2010-10-05 00:12 bring it down to the level that even a shipment of 1 single unit can be effectively taxed 2010-10-05 00:12 seriously 2010-10-05 00:12 even governments would be interseted in this technology 2010-10-05 00:12 online shopping creates a big taxation problem in some countries 2010-10-05 00:13 but anyway, it's not an option because Sisvel is not good enough 2010-10-05 00:14 I guarantee you Tuxbran would solve the problem that way if it would be offered. 2010-10-05 00:14 but a 6-figure down payment? no 2010-10-05 00:15 yup. luckily sisvel demand too much, so no way to yield to that temptation of making a pact with the devil :) 2010-10-05 00:15 :-) 2010-10-05 00:24 in a weird way, we are helping Sisvel extend their patents globally 2010-10-05 00:24 another approach would be to only do online shopping directly from Hong Kong or China 2010-10-05 00:25 they cannot catch such shipments 2010-10-05 00:25 I doubt dealextreme.com has ever heard of any 'patent problem' :-) 2010-10-05 00:25 I could then meet with the Sisvel guys from their HK office for some chit-chat. we would be neighbors. 2010-10-05 00:26 it's a strange world 2010-10-05 00:26 ;-) 2010-10-05 00:26 they would still laugh at me, because every day they make 10 times more money than I make in a month 2010-10-05 00:26 maybe they would feel sorry for me and offer a job as their sysadmin 2010-10-05 00:27 so it would be only fair if they paid you a "thank you" for helping o extend their patents globally ;-) 2010-10-05 00:28 we do help them, really, because we take patents to seriously 2010-10-05 00:28 for them it's just a legal tool to make money 2010-10-05 00:29 we turn it into a big philosophical, legal, whatnot discussion 2010-10-05 00:29 all unpaid of course 2010-10-05 00:29 whereas they charge for every tiny move they make 2010-10-05 00:29 as our first mistake, we are elevating this shit to a global level 2010-10-05 00:29 which would broaden their market and income opportunities a lot 2010-10-05 00:30 so what kind of asymmetric defense would you suggest ? 2010-10-05 00:30 don't know, just ranting... 2010-10-05 00:30 :-) 2010-10-05 00:30 you could hold lectures about the evilness of patent companies in front of street thugs in HK. maybe some will get an inspiration ;-) 2010-10-05 00:31 you mean list some worthwhile kidnapping targets? 2010-10-05 00:31 kidnapping for ransom is an old profession in China 2010-10-05 00:31 not a bad idea at all :) 2010-10-05 00:31 just need to have a lit of rich people and you can start with your business 2010-10-05 00:31 list 2010-10-05 00:32 it would be in fact pretty much their business model, just in a more traditional way. ransom for ransom :) 2010-10-05 00:33 actually I do believe anti-patent lobbying is working 2010-10-05 00:33 in the end I think removing (temporarily, 20 years) and continuing with anti-patent lobbying is the right thing 2010-10-05 00:34 not sure though, I don't think about this all the time... 2010-10-05 00:34 let's see how the android & smartphone battles end up 2010-10-05 00:34 the anti-patent lobbyists did score some wins, that's true 2010-10-05 00:34 in that field everybody seems to sue everybody else right now, I already lost track 2010-10-05 00:34 apple against htc 2010-10-05 00:34 but the trolls may actually have more of an effect 2010-10-05 00:34 htc against apple 2010-10-05 00:34 microsoft against motorola 2010-10-05 00:34 yeah :) 2010-10-05 00:34 oracle against google 2010-10-05 00:35 and so on and so on 2010-10-05 00:35 if you look at this and don't laugh, something must be wrong with your humor muscles 2010-10-05 00:35 it's patently insane :) 2010-10-05 00:35 nokia against xyz too, right? 2010-10-05 00:36 I'm sure the legal department of the companies that have not yet entered the ring are a bit under pressure now. 2010-10-05 00:36 is RIM already suing someonw? 2010-10-05 00:36 maybe we should sue someone too, to look more professional? 2010-10-05 00:37 nokia-apple 2010-10-05 00:37 I would have no problem printing "patents are evil" on each NanoNote 2010-10-05 00:37 and apple-nokia. that was actually first, i think 2010-10-05 00:37 maybe we should maintain a league 2010-10-05 00:38 but over time those battles get messy, it might be hard to score accurately 2010-10-05 00:38 (look more professional) you mean like at companies emphasizing all the cool patented technology they use in their products ? :) 2010-10-05 00:38 no, a bit more anarchic 2010-10-05 00:39 just sue 2010-10-05 00:39 press release 2010-10-05 00:39 i think it's a group-think thing. while they're convinced that this is just the cost of a system that ultimately benefits them, they will keep at it 2010-10-05 00:39 "Qi Hardware is suing Apple, Microsoft, RIM" 2010-10-05 00:39 even if it just drains them 2010-10-05 00:39 it looks so professional maybe some blogs will just carry it 2010-10-05 00:39 do both: print the thing about evil patent then fine some ridiculous patent and sue them :) 2010-10-05 00:40 fiLe 2010-10-05 00:40 nah, no filing 2010-10-05 00:40 ah, fake press release. why not 2010-10-05 00:40 too much work 2010-10-05 00:40 just suing 2010-10-05 00:40 no fake press release 2010-10-05 00:40 its' real 2010-10-05 00:40 we sue 2010-10-05 00:40 we can write the claims on the wiki, collectively 2010-10-05 00:40 find out some addresses of courts, and off we go into the battle 2010-10-05 00:41 don't you need to provide some material for filing the lawsuit ? 2010-10-05 00:41 :-) 2010-10-05 00:41 you take me too serious :-) 2010-10-05 00:41 of course, when the thing is rejected to due formal errors, you can complain about *that*. shows how the small ones have no chance in the system :) 2010-10-05 00:41 we'll just be bystanders and watch with amazement what system some people have created to keep them fed 2010-10-05 00:42 "we did our best to defend out IP but they didn't let us. instead they make ridiculous claims." (like that there's no patent :) 2010-10-05 00:42 yes! 2010-10-05 00:42 :-) 2010-10-05 00:42 yeah. like a biologist dissecting parasitic worms. 2010-10-05 00:43 I think with Milkymist One and Xue we will learn about some new licensing companies. 2010-10-05 00:43 "viel feind, viel ehr" ;-) 2010-10-05 00:58 wpwrak: did you do anything else on the schhist ghost hunting? 2010-10-05 01:01 naw, haven't found where the ghosts are coming from yet 2010-10-05 01:06 ok it's on my list too, though not at the top 2010-10-05 01:06 we'll fix it eventually... 2010-10-05 01:07 yeah. it's weird. but when juggling so many tools, weird things tend to happen. 2010-10-05 03:43 wow guys, so much patent literature to be early morning, well when we start suing :P, we can sue dueÂ Â they don't sue us , and that's discrimination or monopolistic strategy or a secret sue club that in the large argues the big companies are sending encoding messages to pact prices and make detail reports of their parallel business with drugs, weapons and tomatoes 2010-10-05 03:46 tuxbrain: great idea 2010-10-05 03:47 we sue Google/Apple/Microsoft/etc for not suing us because it's a discrimination of our intellectual property 2010-10-05 03:47 hahaahah 2010-10-05 03:47 yeah that's brilliant 2010-10-05 03:48 good, I I had enough money to support this I will just do it for fun 2010-10-05 03:49 a pity we can see the faces of those guys recieving the sue.... 2010-10-05 03:49 I have doen once, suing a big "house selling" company , 2010-10-05 03:50 and wait in the door of the central to see their faces when the notary delivers the sue documentation 2010-10-05 03:51 It' was so funny 2010-10-05 03:52 expensive suit with ties olds mas come to that papers as a fishes when you given them food 2010-10-05 03:59 mas-> man 2010-10-05 04:01 in two hours they callme no renegotiate terms (long history .... but that moment worth 9 months of suffering) 2010-10-05 04:01 morning 2010-10-05 04:01 morning kristoffer 2010-10-05 04:02 hey 2010-10-05 04:03 if you review logs, this night (eastern time) wolfspraul and wpwrak, and lately rafa make a interesting discussion on jlime , NN, patents 2010-10-05 04:04 but I still with one doubt, about jlime final positioning about this 2010-10-05 04:09 As you also know I want to spread the wolrd how beautiful is jlime, in fact I also doing , next step is to directly sell NN with jlime by default in tuxbrain , but to do so and openly add links to jlime project every where etc , the damn patented issue must be solved, that the only thing stoping me of doing so (as you also know) last news was you where dissusing it but I don't anything far than that. 2010-10-05 04:10 I don't know anyting far than that 2010-10-05 04:17 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: make the SVN_VERSION, SVN_STATUS run only once. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/4e4b3a8 2010-10-05 04:17 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: clean up the Build-Depends.Â Â http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/ba96a93 2010-10-05 04:17 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: use the new version rules. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/a3b3ed4 2010-10-05 04:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: clean up the Build-Depends.Â Â http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/eebb79f 2010-10-05 04:38 [commit] Xiangfu Liu: use the new version rules. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/2d8b6c2 2010-10-05 05:25 tuxbrain, In the discussion we had, we really didnt have much objections to removing patents. The deal-breaker was essentially that we understod that even if we removed everything, it wouldnt make any difference for qi in the sense of offering it as an optional installation/promotion on site. That would leave us in the position of giving up one of our benefits while not gaining much in terms of exposure. I a 2010-10-05 05:25 m not fully clear on what areas the different distributors are handling (divided into europe/asia/america?). We are eager to get mainlined in the nn community, but it should also come with more promotional benefits. 2010-10-05 05:59 tuxbrain: whether links to jlime.com are okay or not would be largely be a risk assessment on your side. wolfgang thinks they're dangerous. i would consider them just proper identification. (assuming the offensive stuff isn't right on top of jlime.com) 2010-10-05 06:00 tuxbrain: but there's of course no right or wrong answer here. that is, unless you employ a telepath monitoring sisvel and friends 2010-10-05 06:01 kristoffer: what we've been working out is just a mode of operation that would allow qi-hw to safely host jlime packages 2010-10-05 06:02 tuxbrain: of course, another solution would be for jlime to not offer patent-encumbered packages or instructions for getting such stuff installed anyway on their site either. but as i understand rafa, that's not what jlime want to do. 2010-10-05 06:04 wolfspraul: btw, it isn't necessarily that we're helping the parasites to usefully enforce their patents globally. it's more like acknowledging that the technology has been tainted, just like GIF, and then avoiding it 2010-10-05 06:21 back 2010-10-05 06:24 wpwrak, I read the logs of yesterday (rafa was kind enough to point them to me). I fully agree to your points made there. 2010-10-05 06:26 wpwrak, for the benefit of nn (and everyone), getting choices out there for end-users is beneficial for everyone. If we need to comply (removed patents), we will do so. But it must be met with anÂ Â effort from qi by promotion and actually offering it as an option. 2010-10-05 06:34 kristoffer: i think qi-hw would love to do this. but perhaps you should specify exactly what you expect in return, so that there are no misunderstandings. 2010-10-05 06:35 (e.g., "promotion" is somewhat vague. also "offering" can mean many things, ranging from hosting the packages to selling devices with jlime preinstalled to exclusively preinstalling jlime) 2010-10-05 06:36 wpwrak, agreed. Let me specify 2010-10-05 06:36 (btw, just for the record, i don't speak for qi-hw, sharism, tuxbrain, etc. just trying to help to sort things out) 2010-10-05 06:37 wpwrak, 1. Offering it as an option for sold nanonotes (e.g people can choose between openwrt/jlime/(debian?) at sale time(=offering of option), 2. mention of jlime on site as an valid option (=promotion). 2010-10-05 06:37 I'm not qi, due qi is a comunity , as tuxbrian I can tell than yes if you take that choise of remove patent, I will promote it, Tuxbrain is the EU distributor an AFAIK the second in number of sells after Sharism it self, and due if you are as savy as actual distro, there is no reason of put jlime content on the qi-wiki page or any other NN place 2010-10-05 06:38 and from my part choise will be put Openwrt, jlime will be by default on my NN :) 2010-10-05 06:38 tuxbrain: (who is qi-hw) indeed, that's the next problem :) of course, the people operating the site could be considered as the "contract partners" there 2010-10-05 06:39 wpwrak, tuxbrain I can understand that my approach sounds somewhat harsh or even arrogant. My main point is and has been, that users benefit from choice. And distributions benefit from competition. 2010-10-05 06:40 tuxbrain: "no reason to put" or "no reason not to put" ? :) 2010-10-05 06:40 no reason to not put :) sorry 2010-10-05 06:41 kristoffer: what would be "mention" ? just the name ? maybe name and logo ? would you expect a clickable link to jlime.com ? maybe some additional text or such ? 2010-10-05 06:43 kristoffer: (1) i think wolfgang already wrote that he'd want to do this 2010-10-05 06:43 wpwrak, Nothing much really. Just some text regarding there being many distributions for the nanonote and jlime being one of them. Im not looking for special treatment, just what all nn distributions should have. 2010-10-05 06:44 wpwrak, I believe he said that in a perfect world he would want that, but its not practically possible for him to do so. 2010-10-05 06:44 I understand wolf position, he is a manufacturer his resources are limited an can no devote love to jlime, basically due he has no time/resources to not do so, and for coherence on his other products SIE/milky/xue, and whatever it will come for me is clever and I also support Openwrt as far as I can so the scarce resource it has on soft part are spend on Openwrt, but if jlime is as patent savy as oficial one, he is not again any one editing jlime p 2010-10-05 06:44 age on qi-hardware wiki 2010-10-05 06:44 kristoffer: (your objectives) sounds very reasonable. the current situation that jlime officially doesn't exist and many people are uncertain if they can even mention it is clearly absurd 2010-10-05 06:45 hi xiangfu 2010-10-05 06:45 i tried paul link but no success 2010-10-05 06:48 wpwrak, tuxbrain its a weird situation in any case. And finding common ground and clearing out the question marks is needed before anything is decided. The entire wiki question is another. 2010-10-05 06:49 kristoffer: (perfect world) okay, we'd have to check with him then. i thought it was mainly a logistical issue, one that could be solved (e.g., they would have to stock devices with different preinstalled systems as different items at their fulfillment center, etc. so it would take some time to implement all this. my guess, with setting up the online order system, negotiating with the guys in HK, flashing and testing the devices, and s 2010-10-05 06:49 hipping them there, probably something in the order of 1-2 months. that's of course just my personal guess.) 2010-10-05 06:49 what would be "the wiki question" ? 2010-10-05 06:50 wpwrak, if wolf would do that, then I would be quite happy. 2010-10-05 06:50 wpwrak, well, in short. There was a mention that it was not a good thing to describe howto convert patent->open codecs on site 2010-10-05 06:51 we support 4 different platforms (only one being mips), so we obviously want documentation for everyone. 2010-10-05 06:52 If we comply to muffinman by removing patetnts and howtos, we then face the problem of having to remove them for other platforms as well. 2010-10-05 06:52 that was about describing it on qi-hw. this means for qi-hw that qi-hw can't link to such descriptions 2010-10-05 06:52 ah oki, then it shouldnt be a problem 2010-10-05 06:54 wpwrak, lets hear what wolf says about this all once he returns (wakes up) 2010-10-05 06:54 well, let me be specific. 1) qi-hw can't host such descriptions. 2) if someone puts such a description on the qihw wiki, mailing list, archive, or irc log, it would have to be removed from the archives. 3) if someone links to such information, the link would have to be removed from qi-hw. 4) wolfgang also considers it necessary not to link to jlime.com (or, let's generalize this, anywhere "above" the problem packages or mechanisms or i 2010-10-05 06:54 nstructions for installing them) 2010-10-05 06:55 wpwrak, so in short a link to jlime.com on site will never happen. Well, might not be a problem if the name atleast could be there, or a comment to search on google for it. 2010-10-05 06:56 what i proposed was that qi-hw could simple host a package repository from jlime. that way, there's a clean separation. that repository could either be pushed from jlime or pulled from somewhere on the qi-hw side. (maybe by a cron job ;-) 2010-10-05 06:57 wpwrak, thats not a bad idea. It would secure the option thing will still keeping it seperated (away from harm). 2010-10-05 06:58 will/while 2010-10-05 07:01 kristoffer: by the way, also the list of package repositories that comes with the "patent-free" distribution would have to include only the qi-hw repository. e.g., if people could install the "clean" distro but then simplyÂ Â opkg install mp3-codecs , that would be bad 2010-10-05 07:02 including a location with patented material, but commented out, would probably still be too close 2010-10-05 07:03 on the other hand, if there's a nice article on jlime.com explaining how to switch to the jlime repository and then getting all the good stuff, that would be fine 2010-10-05 07:05 wpwrak, agreed. I think its a good idea. If that could be merged with having muffinman as an option at buy time (or debian for that matter). I think everyone wouldbe happy. 2010-10-05 07:05 excellent, thanks. let's see what wolfgang has to say about it then. 2010-10-05 07:07 anybody worked on serial port communciation 2010-10-05 07:10 qwebirc60090:Â Â what's the question? 2010-10-05 07:10 i need to have two way serial port comm between NN and PC 2010-10-05 07:10 tuxbrain, also. Im sure we can work something out, never matter what wolf says later on. 2010-10-05 07:11 kristoffer:Â Â sure :) 2010-10-05 07:12 qwebirc60090: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Serial_console 2010-10-05 07:12 i haev seen this link and able to send character from NN to PC but NN is not rcving any char from PC 2010-10-05 07:12 ? 2010-10-05 07:13 mmm you need to boot with power+S to enable recieving 2010-10-05 07:13 is ttyS0 configured to rcv data from external environment ? 2010-10-05 07:15 tuxbrain: is power+s for the input multiplexed with the keyboard ? because the other is fine without it 2010-10-05 07:16 I have powered on NN with +S and getting msg "Hit any key to stop" 2010-10-05 07:16 you will recieve data , the thing that doesnt work are shift alt fn keys 2010-10-05 07:17 you have the serial connected? 2010-10-05 07:17 yes 2010-10-05 07:17 try to send something from the serial 2010-10-05 07:17 but NN is not booted till now 2010-10-05 07:18 still msg is coming "Hit any key to stop" 2010-10-05 07:19 any message in the pc side? 2010-10-05 07:20 Nitin Gupta ?? around 2010-10-05 07:20 xiangfu: please tell him send the mails to the mail list !! :) 2010-10-05 07:20 or join IRC 2010-10-05 07:21 bbl 2010-10-05 07:21 qwebirc60090: are you using last uboot? 2010-10-05 07:21 yes here kristian 2010-10-05 07:22 no msg on pc side 2010-10-05 07:22 using uboot only 2010-10-05 07:24 uboot only? no rootfs? what you mean by uboot only? , I don't want to sound agresive :) only want to know what it means :) 2010-10-05 07:25 also ,Â Â using usb->uart 3,3V cable? 2010-10-05 07:25 I am not using USB-UART converter 2010-10-05 07:25 ? 2010-10-05 07:26 how then you connect to pc? trhough rs232? 2010-10-05 07:26 I have tapped TP4 and TP5 and MAx3232 for TTL-232 conversion 2010-10-05 07:26 ok 2010-10-05 07:26 yes 232 only 2010-10-05 07:27 mmmm so if you where able to recive from NN to PC, I must suposse speed and partity are setting ok 2010-10-05 07:28 yes 2010-10-05 07:28 i tried with both minicom and C example too 2010-10-05 07:28 TP4 and TP5. perfect. so it should even work without Power+S 2010-10-05 07:29 ok 2010-10-05 07:35 on reboot i get the boot log on the serial emulator 2010-10-05 07:45 any hint 2010-10-05 07:53 tuxbrain ? 2010-10-05 07:55 I have no experience with 232 :( and when I tried with usb it works a t first try, so I'm little lost on how to move you forward :( 2010-10-05 07:55 [commit] carlos: Change ADC from Texas to Microchip MCP3008. http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/70a1465 2010-10-05 07:56 can you guide me with usb if you have done it 2010-10-05 07:56 what all is reqd and how to integrate 2010-10-05 07:58 [commit] carlos: Adding SPI serial flash component x25x64mb.lib http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/8808163 2010-10-05 08:01 you need the following cableÂ Â FTDI TTL-232R-3V3 2010-10-05 08:01 no sorry 2010-10-05 08:02 tuxbrain: now, hop into the time machine and bring back a few of the RS232-uSD and USB-uSD boards :) 2010-10-05 08:02 yes is that cableÂ Â FTDI TTL-232R-3V3 2010-10-05 08:02 heheeheh 2010-10-05 08:03 soon wpwrak soon 2010-10-05 08:03 or due is "trivial" you can make some for us , clever guy 2010-10-05 08:03 ok 2010-10-05 08:04 is there any part number of this cable ? 2010-10-05 08:04 http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables/USBTTLSerial.htm 2010-10-05 08:05 wpwrak: I notice that the trivial sentence has make a deep wound in my proud dude :P 2010-10-05 08:05 wpwrak: apple may have to pay 625 million USD for some shit patents 2010-10-05 08:06 just in the news 2010-10-05 08:06 microsoft had to pay 200 mln a few months ago 2010-10-05 08:06 wolfspraul: nice ;) go, dogs, follow the money ! ;-) 2010-10-05 08:06 it is having USB type A connector and loose wires at another end 2010-10-05 08:06 wolfspraul: did you see the comments from kristoffer from a couple of hours ago ? 2010-10-05 08:06 which end will be connected to NN and PC 2010-10-05 08:07 hmm, overloaded a bit 2010-10-05 08:07 tuxbrain: heh, i was exaggerating a little :) but it should be relatively easy 2010-10-05 08:07 it is not true that Jlime couldn't be treated exactly like OpenWrt 2010-10-05 08:07 I said many times, if technology would permit, I would let my customers click on images in a drop-down selection when ordering a NanoNote 2010-10-05 08:08 yes, yes yes, try to sweet it now nerdy genius 2010-10-05 08:08 and pay a royalty to the people who uploaded whatever they selected 2010-10-05 08:08 wolfspraul: yup. once the patent problem is gone, there's no reason for them not to be equals. 2010-10-05 08:08 this is the direction I am going to 2010-10-05 08:08 so since I cannot offer such a flexible upload/choose OS option yet, it's a bit more stop and go 2010-10-05 08:08 also granularity is bad 2010-10-05 08:09 wolfspraul: (if technology would permit) kristoffer also wants that jlime would be offered as a preinstalled option, on par with openwrt. would that work ? 2010-10-05 08:09 I don't want to have multiple SKUs at the warehouse 2010-10-05 08:09 I don't want to travel to HK all the time reflashing back and forth 2010-10-05 08:09 of course, I am describing my long term vision first 2010-10-05 08:09 which is: the customer decides 2010-10-05 08:10 for practical reasons, I cannot travel to HK all the time, flash 100 units back and forth 2010-10-05 08:10 or even ever single one :-) 2010-10-05 08:10 how should this work... 2010-10-05 08:10 but we'll get there 2010-10-05 08:10 i think it would also improve the out of box experience to have jlime. well, for those who choose it :) 2010-10-05 08:10 so for the time being, I am thinking about dual booting 2010-10-05 08:11 it's always nice if the first contact is friendly. not getting hit over the head with having to set up communication, download a big distro, figure out how to reflash, etc. 2010-10-05 08:11 ah, dual boot. okay. 2010-10-05 08:11 not because I prefer this or that software, or there is any 'official' one, but simply because of practical limitations of how I can reflash & sell, with the technology where we have it today 2010-10-05 08:11 yes, that sounds interesting. could the two distros share the same /home ? 2010-10-05 08:12 the data handling is an open issue anyway (in OpenWrt) 2010-10-05 08:12 I am hoping/foreseeing a situation where we will ship quite a bit of (hopefully) valuable data on the device 2010-10-05 08:12 is that more a "no" or more a "yes" ;-) 2010-10-05 08:12 such as dictionaries, offline wiki, maps, etc. 2010-10-05 08:12 right now we have a separate data partition, although I think almost nobody uses it 2010-10-05 08:13 ah yes, that would be nice. also, better out of the box experience. 2010-10-05 08:13 yes sure it's moving in that direction 2010-10-05 08:13 but it's a lot of work and will need a lot of time... 2010-10-05 08:13 so that's all ubifs, correct ? 2010-10-05 08:14 I do need an english-chinese dictionary on my nanonote, and I want to be able to easily install maps of cities I travel to, as needed 2010-10-05 08:14 (those are just my personal needs) 2010-10-05 08:14 yes, ubifs 2010-10-05 08:14 rafa, kristoffer: does jlime support ubifs ? e.g., for sharing that data/home partition 2010-10-05 08:15 we could easily format that partition in jffs2 as well I would think 2010-10-05 08:15 it's unused right now anyway 2010-10-05 08:15 from what i gather, kristoffer should be happy with dual boot. in fact, it's even better than being able to pick at order time, because it wouldn't force people to make a decision for which they may not have enough information at that time 2010-10-05 08:17 i don't know much about ubifs. when i was following nand stuff, my impression was that it was very complex (at least compared to jffs2). how does mount time compare ? 2010-10-05 08:17 wpwrak: yes 2010-10-05 08:17 wpwrak: current muffinman version for SD does not have the ubi tools installed, you need ton install them 2010-10-05 08:18 rafa: perfect. so dual boot would be relatively easy ? 2010-10-05 08:18 wpwrak: what do you mean with dual boot? 2010-10-05 08:18 wpwrak: oh, ubifs is much better than jffs2 I think. mount time is much better too. 2010-10-05 08:18 openwrt boots in ca. 13 seconds 2010-10-05 08:18 but the rootfs partition is only 256 mb 2010-10-05 08:19 I believe last time I checked the boot time was 8 seconds longer with a 2gb rootfs partition 2010-10-05 08:19 boot time is great, yes 2010-10-05 08:19 (those are all ubifs numbers, I have not used jffs2 in a long time) 2010-10-05 08:19 rafa: a system that has openwrt and jlime and you can choose which to boot. you'd still want to share /home, for your own data and such. 2010-10-05 08:20 the only big question would be how to choose which to boot 2010-10-05 08:20 easiest is a menu, maybe in u-boot? 2010-10-05 08:20 jffs2 does many horrible things. there are also these cleanup threads it spawns at boot/mount time that keep on running for a long time. 2010-10-05 08:21 or just dump u-boot ? :) 2010-10-05 08:21 wpwrak: ah.. okey.. yes.. all the tools to mount ubifs are on the repositories (just one package IIRC), but we will add that as default because several guys already asked how to mount and we forgot to add some doc in muffinman wiki 2010-10-05 08:21 it's kinda ironic that qi doens't use qi or something similar 2010-10-05 08:21 (about which package to install) 2010-10-05 08:22 rafa: excellent. sorting all this out properly will certainly take some time, so there's no rush 2010-10-05 08:23 a dual-boot NanoNote would be cool I think :-) 2010-10-05 08:23 for me, Jlime would be for X, OpenWrt for console & framebuffer :-) 2010-10-05 08:23 wpwrak: well, for ubi it is easy: install package, run two/three commands, and then you have ubifs mounted. 2010-10-05 08:24 then we add triple-booting including Iris later! 2010-10-05 08:29 hmm, i wonder if the kernel image could conveniently contain a label for the boot loader to show 2010-10-05 08:29 so that it doesn't need a priori knowledge of what things are installed and such. 2010-10-05 08:30 too bad that there's no standard way of making partitions on NAND 2010-10-05 08:36 let's see if CONFIG_LOCALVERSION makes it ... 2010-10-05 08:37 ... yes, it does. good. that would be a way to identify images. 2010-10-05 08:37 (that is, uImages) 2010-10-05 08:40 so if the kernel would be called, say, Linux-2.6.32.10-OpenWRT, the boot loader could just do a sed 's/\(.*\)-\(.*\)/\2 (\1)/' 2010-10-05 08:40 idem for jlime 2010-10-05 08:41 on real file systems, it could simply read a file saying what should be displayed 2010-10-05 08:41 or use the same sort of convention for the kernel file name 2010-10-05 08:50 bah. or just open the kernel file and read the version string. no need to be any different. 2010-10-05 08:50 wpwrak: no following. .. what would bootloader do with that label on uImage? 2010-10-05 08:50 Hi everyone 2010-10-05 08:50 rafa: display it. so you know what you're booting. and the boot loader doesn't need configuration. or built-in knowledge of where which system lives. 2010-10-05 08:51 instead, you'd just have a fixed number of kernel locations to look at, plus uSD 2010-10-05 08:52 wpwrak: sorry, I do not understand. :(Â Â bootloader would display it when booting?.. which is the idea?.. after it is booting you will need to wait a ready system to do something. 2010-10-05 08:52 you could even multi-thread :) so people wouldn't have to wait for the scan to complete. 2010-10-05 08:53 acathla: hey! there you are... :-) 2010-10-05 08:53 rafa: for the boot menu 2010-10-05 08:53 here I am wolfspraulÂ Â :) 2010-10-05 08:53 I have not followed fpgaarcade.com closely, if for the simple fact that his interesting blog has no rss/atom feed :-) 2010-10-05 08:53 but we've been mailing back and forth a few times 2010-10-05 08:53 wpwrak: who would run a boot menu? .. the bootloader or some kern+initramfs+kexec? 2010-10-05 08:53 I never used RSS... 2010-10-05 08:54 which fpga is on that board? 2010-10-05 08:55 hum 2010-10-05 08:55 rafa: that would have to be decided. there are many possibilities. a) make a simple boot loader (without menu) that either boots a "default choice" or a more extensive menu/recovery system, or b) make a more complex boot loader that implements a menu 2010-10-05 08:56 rafa: in terms of political correctness b) would be preferrable 2010-10-05 08:57 adding dual-booting to u-boot seems like a relatively easy task, that I believe we can get to work within a few weeks or so 2010-10-05 08:57 rafa: ah, a1) default is the "default" system, user choice is menu/recovery. a2) default is menu/recovery, user choice is "default" system. a2 would also be "correct". may be a bit inconvenient, though 2010-10-05 08:57 wpwrak: I was thinking a simple idea for just two systems (one on nand, one on SD). If bootloader detects a SD then it would try to boot the system on SD, if there is not sd at that time, or it fails to find the kernel then it would boot the system on nand. 2010-10-05 08:57 But, the only ugly thing is that from time to time you would like to boot from nand and if you forgot to remove sd maybe 2010-10-05 08:58 wolfspraul: i would just drop u-boot. there's very little in it that has real value. 2010-10-05 08:58 the bootloader boots that (if you have a system there). And things could be worst.. if both systems are identical you would not realize easily that you booted from sd and no from nand :) 2010-10-05 08:58 acathla: so for Milkymist One, are you interested in joining the project? 2010-10-05 08:59