2010-10-04 00:01 the ghost is mysterious indeed. the cache has some subtle changes in the postscript. when i run things manually, there are no changes. interesting. 2010-10-04 00:02 can you reproduce it on your end already? 2010-10-04 00:03 I noticed the first ghosts appear with Adam's second commit already, so I will cut out everything else and only run those 2 revisions. 2010-10-04 00:03 i have one ghost but i'm not sure it's the same as yours 2010-10-04 00:04 you have of course a whole castle full of ghosts :) 2010-10-04 00:05 in my case, there are single-pixel differences in the ppm0. in the corresponding postscript, there are some subtle changes like line thickness. however, when i generate the postscript manually, there are no differences. 2010-10-04 00:06 i'm not regenerating the whole thing but i keep all the checked out revisions. then i can run things directly there and see what happens 2010-10-04 00:09 s/not/noW/ 2010-10-04 00:15 generated. now let's see what happened ... 2010-10-04 00:18 oops, killing dbus-launch has interesting side-effects 2010-10-04 00:20 (ghostbusting) aha ! now i get different ps. one step closer 2010-10-04 00:26 oh dear 2010-10-04 00:26 you are ahead of me. so far I only found that when I go back to say the 2nd commit, no ghosts. but they will show up (in that same commit) if I include later commits. 2010-10-04 00:27 in one version, the R comes from the kicad "device" library, in the other from the cache 2010-10-04 00:28 so it'a basically a difference of local kicad installations that shows up there. 2010-10-04 00:28 carlos' local version leaked via the cache.lib that he also checked into git 2010-10-04 00:30 maybe sanitize the cache.lib as well? 2010-10-04 00:30 so the difference is real all the way. it just has a weird origin. 2010-10-04 00:30 hmm, delete it ? ;-) 2010-10-04 00:35 let's see what happens ... 2010-10-04 00:50 I don't think files leaked from Carlos can explain it entirely 2010-10-04 00:50 maybe Adam also leaked files 2010-10-04 00:50 (if it's that) 2010-10-04 00:50 check this: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/board-qi-avt2/ 2010-10-04 00:50 when I git reset upwards, and then run schhist, this is the first time I see ghosts 2010-10-04 00:51 at that point there are no commits from Carlos at all yet 2010-10-04 00:51 well, files leaked by whoever committed the cache.lib. kicad takes care of making sure the leakage occurs :) 2010-10-04 00:52 in my url, if I run schhist up to and including the third commit (from the bottom), it's still fine 2010-10-04 00:52 but when I let it run up to the 4th (visible) commit, the ghost diffs in the 3rd (visible) commit appear 2010-10-04 00:52 ah right, there's also stuff from adam. i just wrote "carlos" because i saw him there. doesn't really matter who committed, though. 2010-10-04 00:52 ok should I wait until you commit further sanitizing, or continue digging deeper on my own? 2010-10-04 00:53 let's first see what the cache removal brings when it comes to the one ghost i had. rebuild is running. 2010-10-04 00:53 k 2010-10-04 00:55 i suspect that there may be more amiss in your case, because the change keeps coming back, but maybe not 2010-10-04 00:55 oh ... could it be that the change keeps repeating when committers alternate ? one version with adam's cache, the next with carlos', etc. 2010-10-04 00:56 no. that doesn't make sense. 2010-10-04 00:56 caches should get synchronized as well. hmm. 2010-10-04 00:57 I focus on the first time any problem appears, and then I would dig in there. 2010-10-04 00:57 but it's on hold until your cache sanitizer improvements 2010-10-04 00:58 hmm. it gets worse. if i delete the cache, it doesn't find the components anymore. 2010-10-04 00:59 layouts will be fun. just spotted some nice long local absolute paths in the profile :-( 2010-10-04 01:01 okay, the missing components are caused by the origin having been removed from the profile 2010-10-04 01:01 so the project only works if you have the cache 2010-10-04 01:02 (or add them back) 2010-10-04 01:03 we can do this, of course ... 2010-10-04 01:05 you lost me know 2010-10-04 01:05 which origins are removed? 2010-10-04 01:05 I'd say if something is missing, let's just not show a diff then, rather than work with unstable cache files that are most likely only accidentally committed 2010-10-04 01:06 s/lost me know/lost me now/ 2010-10-04 01:06 the profile (.pro) lists the libraries we use. local ones and system ones. in this case, the profile was cleaned up at some point in time. 2010-10-04 01:07 when that happened, the reference to the "device" library was removed. that one has things like R. so with the cache.lib now gone too, kicad no longer knows where to find this symbol 2010-10-04 01:10 but why do the ghosts show up on the server but not your machine? 2010-10-04 01:11 we just need to run exactly your setup on the server and we're done :-) 2010-10-04 01:11 maybe different local libraries. at least before the cache was checked in, kicad would use the local libs. 2010-10-04 01:12 i still don't know why your ghost is a revenant, but the stuff is so messy that there may just be a path i'm not thinking of at the moment 2010-10-04 01:13 I took the Debian 20100314 KiCad package, and added your patches to it 2010-10-04 01:14 but lemme add the libs. the you can try and see how much this improves 2010-10-04 01:14 so I did not build directly from KiCad upstream, but from the Debian package as a starting point 2010-10-04 01:22 next build is running ... 2010-10-04 01:40 hmm. better, but now they disappear in one version and come back a bit later. odd. 2010-10-04 01:43 ah, it's different parts that do the vanishing game 2010-10-04 01:48 okay, these are just profile editing mistakes. they were so bad that they were eventually noticed and reverted despite the cache covering things up 2010-10-04 01:58 so, hopefully final test 2010-10-04 02:08 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added mmone-jtag-serial-cable. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/8be9fe1 2010-10-04 02:08 [commit] Werner Almesberger: gitsch2ps now by default removes cache.lib (option -c keeps it) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/7b1d3fd 2010-10-04 02:08 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Environment variable SCHHIST_ADDLIBS to force libraries to be present. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/4d28daf 2010-10-04 02:08 alright. export SCHHIST_ADDLIBS=device 2010-10-04 02:08 and it will make sure we always have at least this 2010-10-04 02:09 let see how it goes 2010-10-04 02:14 do I need to add SCHHIST_ADDLIBS into my script as well? 2010-10-04 02:15 at least for avt2, yes 2010-10-04 02:15 haven't tried the rest yet 2010-10-04 02:18 hi xiangfu 2010-10-04 02:18 qwebirc3299: Hi 2010-10-04 02:18 I have forwarded the schematic of level converter to Adam 2010-10-04 02:19 qwebirc3299: yes. I think he can help you. 2010-10-04 02:19 is there any possiblility of prob around kernel ported to NN 2010-10-04 02:20 i have downloaded the latestÂ Â image from the website 2010-10-04 02:23 qwebirc3299: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/testing/2010-09-14/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-uImage.bin, 2010-10-04 02:24 qwebirc3299: this one is more recently. include the 'setfont2' patch. which make the terminal font more smooth. 2010-10-04 02:24 qwebirc3299: for now. the kernel pretty stable. 2010-10-04 02:25 ok 2010-10-04 02:25 so shall I port this and then try out 2010-10-04 02:26 is it something different vis-a-vis serial prot 2010-10-04 02:28 qwebirc3299: if you more focus in serial console. no need to try out the 2010-09-14 kernel. 2010-10-04 02:28 s/focus in/focus on/ 2010-10-04 02:30 wolfspraul: btw, for deanonymizing qwebircs, one possibility would be to put the nick in the real name field if nickserv rejects it 2010-10-04 02:32 wolfspraul: this is what my schhist of avt2 now looks like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/schhist/avt2/ 2010-10-04 02:58 xiangfu , is Adam trying to get some soln for my prob 2010-10-04 03:02 qwebirc3299: hmm.. you want create your own converter. or you just want the output from Nanonote? 2010-10-04 03:02 anything which can give me the reqd output 2010-10-04 03:04 qwebirc3299: then we can try to send email to mailing list. see if someone near you have bought a work converter :) 2010-10-04 03:05 qwebirc3299: or you can easy to buy from amozon ... 2010-10-04 03:05 the schematic i have sent to you and Adam, will it work or not ? 2010-10-04 03:07 qwebirc3299: sorry. I don't know much about the hardware schematic. I don't understand the low level hardware stuff. 2010-10-04 03:07 only know how to read write GPIO :) 2010-10-04 03:08 ok that is software part 2010-10-04 03:12 hi bartbes. nlove works good so far. i made a small game with it. still some problems using some functions, but all in all it works. 2010-10-04 03:57 lol, nice /etc/banner 2010-10-04 03:58 we should also have a custom image during boot 2010-10-04 07:52 bartbes ? 2010-10-04 07:59 wpwrak: strange, I still get the same ghost diffs as before, as if SCHHIST_ADDLIB didn't do anything 2010-10-04 07:59 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/board-qi-avt2/ 2010-10-04 08:40 wow!! imoressive the schematics history 2010-10-04 08:46 methril_work: yes, but we are still fighting some bugs 2010-10-04 08:46 but yes, it's great!!! 2010-10-04 08:46 methril_work: you can find them all here http://en.qi-hardware.com/schhist 2010-10-04 08:47 ah sorry, wrong link :-) 2010-10-04 08:47 http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist 2010-10-04 08:47 i'll love 2010-10-04 08:47 I hope this will also create some discipline among our KiCad committers towards clean commits, clean commitlogs, etc. 2010-10-04 08:48 now that their work is dragged out in the open so much more :-) 2010-10-04 08:48 and it's only highlighting the modified part!! 2010-10-04 08:49 i never see that on schematics 2010-10-04 08:50 wolfspraul, i ended paying my work hours (more or less) 2010-10-04 08:50 so i'm going to have some time now!!! :) 2010-10-04 08:51 you mean you quit your job? 2010-10-04 08:52 no, i quit my extra hours (for the moment) 2010-10-04 08:52 so i only have to work 9h at day 2010-10-04 08:52 ah OK, well great! welcome to our project! 2010-10-04 08:52 man we do need you :-) 2010-10-04 08:52 i'm going to have 2/3 spare hours at time 2010-10-04 08:52 what are you most interested in? 2010-10-04 08:53 i'm interested in almost everything, hehehe 2010-10-04 08:54 but i'm going to work on RTAI 4 MIPS processors (for the moment) if you didn't have any priority task in mind 2010-10-04 08:54 i love the Milkymist 2010-10-04 08:58 hhi 2010-10-04 08:59 RTAI 4 MIPS? what is that? 2010-10-04 08:59 is it possible t replace a laptop monitor with a different model ? 2010-10-04 08:59 i dont mind if it doesnt fit properly to my laptop case 2010-10-04 09:00 like say mine is 14w , would 15w fit ? 2010-10-04 09:01 Real Time 2010-10-04 09:03 methril_work: how does it relate to other things like Milkymist, SIE, etc? 2010-10-04 09:03 or the other way round - how can we help with your project? 2010-10-04 09:03 what's the goal? 2010-10-04 09:04 wolfspraul, it's related with SIE, to get a real time api forrobotics 2010-10-04 09:04 s/forrobotics/for robotics/ 2010-10-04 09:05 and also could use scilab with rtai extensions to get a simulink/labview similar environment with SIE (mostly) 2010-10-04 09:06 methril_work: wow.. you have a 9h work per day and also you can work 2 or 3 hours more. Cool ! :) .. I can just work around 6 hours per day for all (paid+hobby), no more, maybe less. maybe i have some kind of lazy disease :P 2010-10-04 09:07 methril_work: do you have a SIE board? 2010-10-04 09:07 rafa, well, it depends how you organize your time ;) 2010-10-04 09:07 wolfspraul, not jet 2010-10-04 09:07 hmm 2010-10-04 09:07 :-) 2010-10-04 09:07 where will you get it from? 2010-10-04 09:07 methril_work: yes, something of that could be the reason 2010-10-04 09:07 i'm waiting for a Carlos sent :) 2010-10-04 09:07 i thought the plan was for several months to get one to you... 2010-10-04 09:08 wolfspraul, it was 2010-10-04 09:08 but it didn't arrive 2010-10-04 09:08 but i could start this port with the ben 2010-10-04 09:08 yes good 2010-10-04 09:08 do you think there are most important tasks to deal with? 2010-10-04 09:09 thanks for asking 2010-10-04 09:09 I think the main thing is that you find something that truly interests you, that helps you in the future 2010-10-04 09:10 and then, second most important, that you are steadily working on it, not just a burst for a few weeks then nothing for months or longer 2010-10-04 09:10 well, i'm also interested in milkymist, but i've to study a lot to get a productive level 2010-10-04 09:10 yes sure 2010-10-04 09:10 so i see it like a long term plan 2010-10-04 09:10 SIE is a good start 2010-10-04 09:10 and NanoNote is a start for SIE 2010-10-04 09:10 that's why we have all these projects together here :-) 2010-10-04 09:10 hehehe 2010-10-04 09:11 wolfspraul: (ghosts) i was afraid yours wouldn't go away so easily :-( 2010-10-04 09:11 wolfspraul: btw, SCHHIST_ADDLIBS only corrects a problem unconvered by removing the cache. removing the cache is what should stabilize the process. the cache is now removed by default. 2010-10-04 09:12 rafa, you live in Argentina, isn't it? 2010-10-04 09:13 rafa: speaking about SAKC/SIE boards, what happened to that one professor you gave one to? 2010-10-04 09:16 wolfspraul: hey, it was sakc.. he started to port jlime to sakc and work on the bootloader for sd, then also there was a student interested to work his thesis with something about next SIe or Sakc. But no idea currently. I need to ask why he is quiet nowaday.. 2010-10-04 09:16 wolfspraul: well, I started my trip and forgot the world for a month or two as well :D 2010-10-04 09:17 methril_work: yes, where are you from? 2010-10-04 09:17 i'm from spain but i'm living in Brazil 2010-10-04 09:17 in the south of brazil (Rio Grand do Sul) 2010-10-04 09:17 methril_work: ah.. we are neighbors 2010-10-04 09:18 rafa, yes!! :) 2010-10-04 09:18 methril_work: you are almost in uruguay or argentina :) 2010-10-04 09:18 rafa, i'm, I would like to plan a trip to Uruguay, or maybe Argentina 2010-10-04 09:18 rafa, i'll ask you for advices ;) 2010-10-04 09:20 methril_work: if you come to argentina please keep in touch 2010-10-04 09:20 methril_work: we can meet here 2010-10-04 09:21 rafa, i'll do :) Where are you? in Buenos Aires? 2010-10-04 09:21 methril_work: of course, no doubts.. please tell us if you are coming some day.. we know buenos aires a lot.. so you will have fun if you ask us .. Also we can talk about copyleft hardware and things to do together perhaps 2010-10-04 09:21 soon, we'll have enough developers in south america that we can benefit from the inferiority complexes of the political class and get government funding ;-) a state of the art pan-continental technology project where something actually gets done. that's definitely something new around here :) 2010-10-04 09:22 wpwrak, this is new around the world ;) 2010-10-04 09:25 methril_work: in europe, you get some EU-sponsored R&D projects that sometimes do get something done (ACTS and the like). of course, that whole thing is rather expensive for its output. not that i'd complain too much - it served us well back then ;-) 2010-10-04 09:27 wolfspraul: do i have access to the machine where the schhist process lives ? may be easier if i can just log in and grab the files. 2010-10-04 09:27 wpwrak, i know, i was living in Europe until the beginning of this year 2010-10-04 09:27 wpwrak: try ssh root@ 2010-10-04 09:27 root = access, no? :-) 2010-10-04 09:27 hostname is fidelio.qi-hardware.com 2010-10-04 09:27 i'm beginning to worry about the security of my own systems :) 2010-10-04 09:28 projects. ... works. too ;) thanks ! 2010-10-04 09:29 ah no,. wrong server. darn, no locked doors anywhere :) 2010-10-04 09:33 yes, it's not the same server 2010-10-04 09:33 the buildhost (fidelio) is basically the building sandbox 2010-10-04 09:33 also it's not backed up 2010-10-04 09:34 system is tuned for performance (raid0 etc) 2010-10-04 09:34 100% of the data on it is recreatable 2010-10-04 09:34 so for schhist, fidelio is ideal 2010-10-04 09:35 once I do my wiki->openwrt packaging system, the build steps will also run there. everything else would be crazy insecure. 2010-10-04 09:35 the happy sandbox farm :) 2010-10-04 09:36 SiENcE: you expect me to reply while I'm gone? 2010-10-04 09:36 downloading the critters ... 2010-10-04 09:36 anyway, what problems? 2010-10-04 09:36 bartbes: awol ? tsk tsk. we have to send igor over to tighten these chains again. 2010-10-04 09:38 wpwrak: I was KIA 2010-10-04 09:40 bartbes: ah one of these immortals again. we didn't have that in our files yet. 2010-10-04 09:41 well, obviously you went for the wrong intelligence agency 2010-10-04 09:41 rafa: btw, i briefly discussed with wolfspraul the jlime vs. qi-hardware situation, namely that jlime doesn't get much exposure/visibility due to the patent issues. 2010-10-04 09:42 rafa: i also remember that you weren't quite sure what to do about it. correct ? 2010-10-04 09:43 bartbes: i'll have those traitors executed. can't have that if your goal is world domination. now, where's my white cat. 2010-10-04 09:44 wpwrak: I think I saw it killing some dogs over there 2010-10-04 09:48 wolfspraul: wiki -> openwrt ,Â Â how is that? 2010-10-04 09:49 bartbes, hey. well now you are here. i just waited 2010-10-04 09:49 something like make a package as you write a wiki article? :) 2010-10-04 09:49 wpwrak: I am sure that we (jlime) should do to fix the patent issues (on software side), but that I am not sure is how to work with other jlime devs it. We have a lead/dictator/main developer, kristoffer, but he wants, like me, decide what to do deciding between all devs (we are really few guys). But then, we discussed it at jlime meeting.. 2010-10-04 09:50 bartbes, just want to say that nlove works on dingoo a320. on weekend some friends and i wrote an love2d game and i ported it to nlove (just because not all functions work in nlove) 2010-10-04 09:50 bartbes, i can send it to you later 2010-10-04 09:50 wpwrak: .. OE already includes all this kind of stuff (software/libs which can encode/decode patented stuff).. 2010-10-04 09:51 rafa: so some didn't like the idea of making it easy to exclude patent-encumbered packages ? 2010-10-04 09:51 wpwrak: and we should manage that there. Currently, another jlime dev is working with OE for muffinman/nn, and we could work that. Buuut, 2010-10-04 09:51 wolfspraul: actually, at what level does the PATENT flag work ? package yes/no, build process changes, patches of packages ? 2010-10-04 09:52 bartbes : i just want to ask, if you plan to merge nlove with love2d ... and if you plan to finish it?Â Â it would be good to have an git or svn repository for the code 2010-10-04 09:52 when we were in jlime meeting, we realize that tuxbrain decided to use jlime anyway. 2010-10-04 09:52 wpwrak: and wolfspraul already said that tuxbrain was the most concerned part of patented issues. 2010-10-04 09:53 tuxbrain_away: so you're no longer worried about patent trolls ? or just sleeping badly every since that fateful decision ? :) 2010-10-04 09:53 wpwrak: so we decided to wait a while before to do the hard work. 2010-10-04 09:53 s/every/ever/ 2010-10-04 09:53 wpwrak: I guess that tuxbrain is really worried, but he did not have a lot of stuff to decide what to use 2010-10-04 09:54 wpwrak: so we will wait a while to know what other nn resellers like to have inside of nn 2010-10-04 09:54 rafa: fair enough. of course, the patent problem will hit everyone in the distribution process. tuxbrain is just the most exposed at the moment, being in europe, the home of the mp3 trolls. 2010-10-04 09:54 wpwrak: we are the dark side so far :) 2010-10-04 09:56 wpwrak: you will not find jlime info if you are a qi user who just check qi wiki .. but if you look deeper .. ;) 2010-10-04 09:57 yes, the lack of information is what worries me a bit. of the thre choices, openwrt, jlime, and debian, jlime seems to be the one best adapted to the device. yet it's kinda hard to find. 2010-10-04 09:57 indeed 2010-10-04 09:58 so many people will just assume that the default (openwrt) is implicitly recommended, stay with it, and maybe start fixing it and porting stuff to it, things you've already done long ago on jlime 2010-10-04 09:59 thus, instead of making a good distribution even better, all this work goes into making a weaker distribution stronger. so the average does improve, but the maximum doesn't. 2010-10-04 09:59 openwrt will stay there for devel, but jlime is looking endusers now >) 2010-10-04 10:00 kristianpaul: i'm currently fairly distribution-agnostic (my user space is the shell :) so i haven't tried jlime yet. is it in any way less convenient for developers ? e.g., is it harder to get a host toolchain ? 2010-10-04 10:00 wpwrak: (jlime devel) no no,my point was in eduser experience development not development tools support 2010-10-04 10:01 but thats other point for jlime 2010-10-04 10:01 :) 2010-10-04 10:01 wolfspraul: btw, do you know what license xue is under ? 2010-10-04 10:02 SiENcE: I'll probably merge it in after 0.7.0 releases 2010-10-04 10:02 wpwrak: gpl/cc-by-sa 2010-10-04 10:03 the files are not as clean as I wish, we need to clarify in more places 2010-10-04 10:03 wpwrak: just look here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xue 2010-10-04 10:03 wolfspraul: ah, perfect. thanks ! 2010-10-04 10:04 wpwrak: I guess that one nice thing with our stuff is the complete repositofy built from OE. If you use jlime you do not need to spend a lot of days to have some application ported, you just install it from repository. The same with debian. But also, we have worked with tiny screen, 16MB of ram, slow cpu devices for several years, so we alredy suffered testing a lot of different kind of stuff for those devices. That is why we know that still if gtk1 is rea 2010-10-04 10:05 wolfspraul: regarding the PATENT flag, at what granularity does it work. e.g., for mplayer, does it just kick out mplayer, does it pick a different build script / change options in the existing script, does it apply special patches to the source, ... ? 2010-10-04 10:05 kristianpaul: yeah I just want something that lets you hook into the buildhost from the wiki, say write a script in the wiki, have it packaged on the backend 2010-10-04 10:05 I'll do the minimum plumbing necessary to hook the wiki & buildhost/openwrt build environment together 2010-10-04 10:05 wpwrak: also.. we already know how to config the light X which use just few 5 MB of ram or less.. and which wm (we alredy tested around 20 these years) 2010-10-04 10:05 to use 2010-10-04 10:06 rafa: OE is a mixed blessing :) it gives you a lot of stuff but at the same time it's quite a monster 2010-10-04 10:06 rafa: so it's quite hard for new people to work in there. openwrt has an advantage in this regard. 2010-10-04 10:06 wpwrak: yes, it is a monster, but if you use it just to build your repository it willl be quiet complete.. and you will have all the stuff already built for your arch. 2010-10-04 10:07 wpwrak: ah.. you means to expand it?.. it is already okey :) 2010-10-04 10:07 no add more stuff please! 2010-10-04 10:07 :D 2010-10-04 10:07 indeed about monster 2010-10-04 10:07 i wonder how works bitbake inside 2010-10-04 10:08 rafa: reminds me of that guy who said around 1900 that all interesting things have been researched and he didn't expect significant any further technological discoveries/inventions :) 2010-10-04 10:09 kristianpaul: probably much like the digestive tract of the title character of "alien" 2010-10-04 10:09 lol 2010-10-04 10:09 hmm, that message needs reshuffling. i shouldn't multitask 2010-10-04 10:10 wpwrak: patented flag - don't know exactly. the flag is passed into the Makefile, I guess it could be passed deeper if necessary. 2010-10-04 10:10 remember that openwrt is a patch management system 2010-10-04 10:10 so the patches can of course drive this flag deeper into upstream sources 2010-10-04 10:10 Good morning hackers. 2010-10-04 10:10 rafa: a high barrier for participation means more reliance on the people who have already mastered that barrier. now, in the case of jlime, that's unfortunately only a small group. so there is a continuity concern. 2010-10-04 10:11 Or good evening for those of you who experienced Monday already.Â Â :-D 2010-10-04 10:11 wolfspraul: okay. so what happens with you set that flag, in terms of differences in the output ? 2010-10-04 10:12 bartbes, good. is there a forum thread about nlove? or what about an coderepository? i had to patch some functions to get it working 2010-10-04 10:12 wpwrak: remove mp3, mpeg4, h.264 2010-10-04 10:12 aisa: sorry I'm slow. the news stuff we talked about is not ready yet. give me another day. 2010-10-04 10:12 bartbes : i still have the problem, that starting nlove alone couses an segfault. but starting nlove with pong for example works 2010-10-04 10:12 feel free to start editing of course, no hesitations... 2010-10-04 10:13 rafa: i remember OE well from openmoko. we had that problem that lots of people had to wrestle with it, with all the problems this causes. things got a bit better when there were more or less dedicated maintainers, so one could just drop off a package and they would take care of the OE-specific side. 2010-10-04 10:13 regarding jlime and pantent trolls and tuxbrain 2010-10-04 10:13 rafa: those working on GUI-ish things still worked a lot in OE, though. not sure how well that went. 2010-10-04 10:14 I manually remove mp3 codecs on the Nanowar edition of jlime 2010-10-04 10:14 wolfspraul: do you remember that ? people working on OM GUI apps using OE as their build environment ? 2010-10-04 10:14 wolfspraul: it is fine with me, Monday is difficult for me: too many things to get done. 2010-10-04 10:14 indeed!Â Â I will. 2010-10-04 10:14 so at least at by default it will not play them 2010-10-04 10:14 wpwrak: I remember clearly. That's why I (that is just me, personally), chose to try OpenWrt this time around... :-) Nothing against OE though, and especially not a nice distribution like Jlime. 2010-10-04 10:15 wolfspraul: (mp3, ...) okay, so find granularity. good. 2010-10-04 10:15 but please, nobody ever try to force me back into OE/bitbake again 2010-10-04 10:15 If Jlime dealt with the patent issue, is that the only reason stopping adoption of it? 2010-10-04 10:15 neither directly, nor indirectly (managing people who have the suicidal mission to go there) 2010-10-04 10:15 lol 2010-10-04 10:15 wpwrak: well, yes and no. we are a small group.. but OE is being worked for many groups. I am not sure that you means with a monster, I like OE to build a complete repository, I do not like so much it to keep different root filesystems. For repository it is nice.. you just has a tiny.bb for an application and it builds, like you had in gentoo for example. And OE is quiete complete.. so you do not need to add many applications to the feed, and others also d 2010-10-04 10:15 nothing stops 'adoption' 2010-10-04 10:15 already now 2010-10-04 10:15 alsa: for my part yes 2010-10-04 10:15 I reflashed the new run of 1000 nanos recently 2010-10-04 10:16 wolfspraul: i think rafa alreadyÂ Â did (sacrify) for us :) 2010-10-04 10:16 and we didn't have a good openwrt build (the one we ended up flashing has serious bugs) 2010-10-04 10:16 I guess I'm troubled by this: I'd like to dive deeply into a distribution and make it something really special on the NanoNote. 2010-10-04 10:16 wolfspraul: i know what you mean. i've seen the OE wars for something like a year even before you joined :) (don't even remember how long ... certainly felt like half a lifetime) 2010-10-04 10:16 I was pretty close to just reflashing jlime without asking anyone :-) 2010-10-04 10:16 :O 2010-10-04 10:16 but then I thought it's too chaotic... 2010-10-04 10:16 With no other information, I wish to use the one that comes with my NanoNote, in the hope that my work also makes it into the official image. 2010-10-04 10:16 if jlime was pantent savy I will ask wolfgang to send my NN with Jlime instead of openwrt 2010-10-04 10:16 in spite it sound cruel 2010-10-04 10:16 after the 1000 reflashing 2010-10-04 10:16 no problem, I'd love to do that 2010-10-04 10:17 But it seems like much energy is applied toward Jlime or other environments, 2010-10-04 10:17 if my customers, someone who wants to buy, challenge me, as a manufacture, to put software A/B/C on it, that's a great challenge 2010-10-04 10:17 and that OpenWrt, while being the image that comes flashed on the device, receives the least attention. 2010-10-04 10:17 that's the beauty of free software 2010-10-04 10:17 I will gladly accept such challenges, and get the stuff reflashed in the way people want it. done. 2010-10-04 10:17 tuxbrain: who is Mr/Mrs Jlime?Â Â I want to talk to them. 2010-10-04 10:18 aisa: OpenWrt receives a lot of attention 2010-10-04 10:18 aisa: you meant then muffin man? 2010-10-04 10:18 alsa, the user experience with jlime worht that energy 2010-10-04 10:18 wolfspraul: if debian would have some kind of repositories for mobile devices (with small, just minimal files packages for every application) we would use debian surely.. 2010-10-04 10:18 you will not be able to marry the two here, many people tried before you :-) 2010-10-04 10:18 aisa: funny, to me it seems that actually quite a lot of work goes into openwrt :) 2010-10-04 10:18 there are good reasons for both of them 2010-10-04 10:18 at least on my side as one who has to buy it 2010-10-04 10:18 aisa: you can join us in #jlime channel 2010-10-04 10:18 SiENcE: that is because I guess the a320 can't handle fb windows larger than its screen size 2010-10-04 10:18 I love the simplicity of developing on Openwrt 2010-10-04 10:18 aisa: you can talk there with us .. and you would meet MR JLIME! :D 2010-10-04 10:19 SiENcE: and no, there's no repo atm, but fixes should be submitted to me 2010-10-04 10:19 my knees shake!Â Â :-D 2010-10-04 10:19 rafa: has any attempt been made to change debian in this direction ? at least to the point of getting the opinion of the "core" debian maintainers ? 2010-10-04 10:19 I have succesfully make my own builds and adaptations, thing that I hade never fully achieved with OE on openmoko era 2010-10-04 10:19 aisa: OpenWrt & OpenEmbedded are very different 2010-10-04 10:20 rafa: is that too bad emdebian? 2010-10-04 10:20 the judgment will of course differ depending on which side of the camp you stand on 2010-10-04 10:20 I was around when OE was formed/created. 2010-10-04 10:20 it's clear that OpenEmbedded is as much real free software as OpenWrt is 2010-10-04 10:20 but I haven't looked at it since then. 2010-10-04 10:21 putting some border cases like binary firmware blobs and patents aside, we all feel similarly on those anyway. 2010-10-04 10:21 for me personally, I'm now sold on OpenWrt 2010-10-04 10:21 bartbes, :-( ok. i can send you a patch. but it would be good to know where i can find updates for nlove src. if sdlsound is working 2010-10-04 10:21 _personally_ 2010-10-04 10:21 but I'd love to reflash any software, preferably free software, on NanoNotes to sell them 2010-10-04 10:21 i like openwrt simplicy as far i can see 2010-10-04 10:22 rafa: the things is that OE is very very complex. for openwrt, if you understand makefile and kconfig, you're almost there. for oe, you need to learn about bitbake, all its configuration files, and sometimes also things like caches and such. (the latter mainly because OE moves a lot of stuff. that's of course a scalability issue also openwrt will run into, if brought to the same number of packages) 2010-10-04 10:22 the next big thing will be the software for Milkymist One and then Xue, the digital camera 2010-10-04 10:22 wpwrak: no.. we do not have any contact with them (debian), no sure about emdebian as kristianpaul says.. We should check how emdebian is going.. I am not sure if it is very used. 2010-10-04 10:23 if you would let me choose, which tool is best for that task, I would pick OpenWrt over OE many times 2010-10-04 10:23 wolfspraul: what is the one feature of OE that OpenWrt doesn't have?Â Â Since you would pick OpenWrt, what would you miss about OE? 2010-10-04 10:23 SiENcE: I guess I could blog about new releases :P 2010-10-04 10:23 OpenEmbedded has a much larger repository though, and much more history & packages on the GUI side 2010-10-04 10:23 wolfspraul: I agree 2010-10-04 10:23 I wouldn't miss anything from OE. 2010-10-04 10:24 wolfspraul: from a system developer point of view, i liked the "lots of packages (provided by someone else)" plus my root-making script plus an easily installed host toolchain that can also install libraries (with opkg) 2010-10-04 10:24 wolfspraul: wpwrak in openmoko what was the experience with debian in that time? 2010-10-04 10:24 bartbes : ok :-) . i would also port it to caanoo 2010-10-04 10:24 SiENcE: though I might put it up on bitbucket next time I work on it 2010-10-04 10:24 caanoo? 2010-10-04 10:24 gph caanoo 2010-10-04 10:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Caanoo 2010-10-04 10:24 wolfspraul: the workflow is then like on a regular linux pc - you rarely build things your actual work is based on yourself, you just install the package 2010-10-04 10:25 anyway we are not talking about the tool OpenWrt vs. the tool OpenEmbedded now, or rather that's a separate discussion 2010-10-04 10:25 we are talking about Jlime 2010-10-04 10:25 bartbes : bitbucket is ok . better would be github but ok 2010-10-04 10:25 kristianpaul: (debian) i think a bit like here - it exists but never got quite that much attention 2010-10-04 10:25 Jlime is a great distribution for NanoNote, definitely 2010-10-04 10:25 SiENcE: well, love is on bitbucket 2010-10-04 10:25 ah ok 2010-10-04 10:25 also, with the new owner bitbucket got cooler 2010-10-04 10:26 i have to test it 2010-10-04 10:26 and promises to get even cooler 2010-10-04 10:26 Will OpenWrt scale to the number of packages to make the NN a nice working environment? 2010-10-04 10:26 aisa: matter of time and matainers but yes it should 2010-10-04 10:27 Does that mean I can go clean up the Utilities submenu in make menuconfig... 2010-10-04 10:27 it is screens and screens long. 2010-10-04 10:27 jlime is great as rafa point dont get overloaded with too much features 2010-10-04 10:27 .oinai 2010-10-04 10:27 bartbes : i think boot.lua has to be patched to work on nanonote and dingoo. lower standard resolution an better no vsync 2010-10-04 10:27 wolfspraul: i think there are several issues to consider with jlime or any other distro: one it the end user experience, one is how well it fits the developer's need, then whether it's long-term viable, which breaks down into a) current maintainers, b) accessibility for new maintainers, and c) alignment with other work (i.e., how much actually needs to be done to keep it afloat) 2010-10-04 10:27 aisa: i think the idea of openwrt simplicy is just have what you need 2010-10-04 10:28 wpwrak: +1.Â Â Very well said. 2010-10-04 10:28 bartbes, but all in all ...its really cool to code in love2d and than use the same code to run it on handhelds :) 2010-10-04 10:28 I worry that Jlime won't go anywhere unless the NN is aligned with it, and doing so may mean both get to a dead-end. 2010-10-04 10:29 wolfspraul: the jlime vs. debian issue is also relevant. rafa mentioned to me before that he'd actually prefer jlime to be debian-based, but the issue is that debian doesn't have the right granularity for small devices 2010-10-04 10:29 We are very open to new developers, so if we branch, I think that problem is the same regardless of distribution. 2010-10-04 10:29 save issues with upstream. 2010-10-04 10:29 aisa: (dead end) that's also my concern 2010-10-04 10:29 bartbes, last weekend we where on a hobby game development meeting and we took part on an overnight game coding contest. since the last 4 years we took Love2d for this...and last year we won the 1st price. 2010-10-04 10:29 I believe that xiangfu and wolfspraul were trying to tell me some of that last night, but it is much clearer to me this morning, after reading what you said. 2010-10-04 10:30 wpwrak: talking about GUI end user experience openmoko moved to Qt isnt? 2010-10-04 10:30 as they found gtk(2?) was too slow 2010-10-04 10:30 but now jlime shows somthing diferente 2010-10-04 10:30 aisa: ah ... no, i misread what you wrote :) no, i'm not too worried about both going into dead-end land so far. i'm worried about jlime not going anywhere without closer ties to the nanonote. 2010-10-04 10:30 wpwrak: take the dead-end issue to its logical conclusion, should we not align with the largest embedded handheld linux distribution? 2010-10-04 10:30 as a space, it isn't going anywhere. 2010-10-04 10:30 user experience(jlime wins) developer's need(mmmm draw, OE more libraries, openwrt more easy to manage), lonterm- viable...... if we don't sell more NNÂ Â who cares :) 2010-10-04 10:31 wpwrak: ah, ok.Â Â I agree. 2010-10-04 10:31 tuxbrain: well said.Â Â What sells more NN? 2010-10-04 10:31 does our choice of distribution matter for that? 2010-10-04 10:31 no 2010-10-04 10:31 aisa: and the nanonote doesn't look its best only with openwrt. so there's a nice symbiosis there. nn gives jlime a reason to exist and nn lives a happier life if jlime is around. 2010-10-04 10:31 bartbes, btw. i'm a close friend of qubodup 2010-10-04 10:31