2010-08-31 00:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: how do you like this one ? http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/demo2/
2010-08-31 00:22 <wpwrak> (except for the renamed columns. haven't done these yet.)
2010-08-31 00:23 <wolfspraul> he, now your scripts also need to deal with the splits! :-)
2010-08-31 00:24 <wolfspraul> so we support A4 and A3, but not A2?
2010-08-31 00:24 <wpwrak> it supports a2, but they don't look too good
2010-08-31 00:24 <wolfspraul> ah OK
2010-08-31 00:25 <wpwrak> i think the difference heuristics are now reasonably stable with a2. they may still miss some detail, i suppose, but they now find more than they used to.
2010-08-31 00:26 <wpwrak> the price to pay for this is more demand on disk space. there are now three different pixmaps: the ones for the difference views, the ones for the thumbnails, and then another set for the calculating the differences. the latter used thinner lines than the rest and disables anti-aliasing.
2010-08-31 00:27 <wolfspraul> so now you basically have a 3rd level, the PDF
2010-08-31 00:27 <wolfspraul> which has the two sheets separately
2010-08-31 00:27 <wpwrak> yup
2010-08-31 00:27 <wolfspraul> maybe should be labeled 'before commit' and 'after commit' or so?
2010-08-31 00:27 <wolfspraul> on the second level, the large png, I still find it too small to be readable
2010-08-31 00:28 <wpwrak> the two sheets, or one in case of addition/deletion. in the top bar of the front page, you also have the latest file and the while collection right of it
2010-08-31 00:28 <wpwrak> (label) what pdf viewer do you use ?
2010-08-31 00:28 <wolfspraul> maybe the browser scales the large png? I use firefox 3.6.x
2010-08-31 00:28 <wolfspraul> probably xpdf
2010-08-31 00:29 <wpwrak> xpdf should show BEFORE/AFTER in the sidebar
2010-08-31 00:30 <wpwrak> (hard to read) yes, that's generally a problem with things like schematics vs. non-zoomable images. the idea is that, if you're already familiar with the schematics, this image will tell you where the change is
2010-08-31 00:30 <wpwrak> to see all the details, the PDF is just one click away
2010-08-31 00:31 <wolfspraul> ok, my firefox uses evince, I don't see before/after there. in xpdf I do see it, but it's not clear which page you are on visually (maybe my xpdf)
2010-08-31 00:31 <wpwrak> hmm, thinking of it .. i could make a zoom view. precalculate a magnified version of the change area and use an image map on the large view.
2010-08-31 00:32 <wpwrak> (xpdf) no, that's unfortunately how xpdf does it
2010-08-31 00:32 <wolfspraul> I understand your point about the large PNG
2010-08-31 00:32 <wpwrak> the problem with labeling is that i don't quite know where it's safe to do so.
2010-08-31 00:32 <wolfspraul> for me it's more psychological. in the small png (overview), it's clear you cannot read anything. just get a very rough idea of the location/magnitude of the changes.
2010-08-31 00:33 <wolfspraul> but then you load the next larger png, and it is _almost_ readable. the almost is the frustrating part imo :-)
2010-08-31 00:33 <wpwrak> yeah, i know. it's very very close to being readable ;-))
2010-08-31 00:37 <wpwrak> (zoom) i think a precomputed magnified view could work nicely. needs to connect things from a lot of places, though, so it's not entirely easy. i'd say that's a version 2.0 feature :)
2010-08-31 00:38 <wpwrak> also storage demands will go up.  the baby is getting a bit fat :)
2010-08-31 00:38 <wolfspraul> I think that should be OK.
2010-08-31 00:39 <wpwrak> rsync of xue output now takes me ~45 minutes
2010-08-31 00:39 <wolfspraul> 50GB partition right now, 33 GB are free. and the 50 GB is totally arbitrary, I could easily increase it to 100, 200, etc.
2010-08-31 00:40 <wolfspraul> I am probably a bit more worried about server load.
2010-08-31 00:40 <wolfspraul> the cache will stay, then it should be OK from what you said
2010-08-31 00:41 <wpwrak> lemme check how much disk space it needs ...
2010-08-31 00:42 <wpwrak> 1.4 GB (cache and output of Xue)
2010-08-31 00:42 <wpwrak> cache rebuild is now ~19 min
2010-08-31 00:43 <wpwrak> output rebuild from cache is ... waiting ...
2010-08-31 00:45 <wpwrak> 2 minutes
2010-08-31 00:46 <wpwrak> if i don't regenerate the PNGs it would be even faster. kinda 2 cache levels
2010-08-31 00:46 <wpwrak> that's a on a Q6600, basically without parallelizing
2010-08-31 00:47 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Fix two bugs left from the great reorganization. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/80c6f3e
2010-08-31 00:47 <wolfspraul> I have to see how it performs on the server. if we need more power it's also OK at least we have a good reason.
2010-08-31 00:48 <wpwrak> hehe :) you;ll need to take some precautions that you don't start a job before the previous one has finished
2010-08-31 00:49 <wpwrak> right now, that's even more or less global. if you run two in, say, ~qihw/xue and ~qihw/ben-wpan, they would clash on some temporary files
2010-08-31 00:50 <wolfspraul> hmm
2010-08-31 00:51 <wpwrak> that's more feature than bug. i have to go up the hierarchy to make sure relative paths crossing projects still work. so the only choice would be to use a fixed name for the temporary directory or a variable one (based on PID or such)
2010-08-31 00:51 <wpwrak> in the latter case, you'd of course get some directory with junk when the process fails for some reason
2010-08-31 00:52 <wolfspraul> paths crossing projects?
2010-08-31 00:52 <wpwrak> but then, you may actually now want to have more than one run at the same time
2010-08-31 00:52 <wpwrak> e.g., ben-wpan uses things from f32xbase
2010-08-31 00:53 <wpwrak> so it assumed they're both at the same point in the hierarchy and accesses them with ../f32xbase/foo
2010-08-31 00:53 <wpwrak> assumeS
2010-08-31 00:53 <wolfspraul> what 'things' for example?
2010-08-31 00:53 <wpwrak> code
2010-08-31 00:54 <wpwrak> f32xbase has firmware components. boot loader, USB stack, DFU, etc.
2010-08-31 00:55 <wpwrak> all my little usb devices share that code. ben-wpan, cntr, in theory also idbg (the code comes from there, but idbg doesn't live in the qi-hw hierarchy)
2010-08-31 00:55 <wpwrak> once we have a kicad symbols and footprint library, also kicad could use things in this way
2010-08-31 00:56 <wpwrak> relative paths avoid the problem of having to find a global install location on the system and all that entails
2010-08-31 00:58 <wpwrak> well, there are three choices: relative paths to files, absolute paths to files, and names that get combined with a search path
2010-08-31 00:59 <wpwrak> search paths only move the issue elsewhere, because you then have to put the right relative or absolute path there
2010-08-31 00:59 <wpwrak> or use a default path, which means installing in /usr/local/share or such (in the case of kicad files), or /usr/include, /usr/local/include, etc., in the case of code
2010-08-31 01:00 <wpwrak> but now you need admin rights. not a nice general requirement.
2010-08-31 01:01 <wolfspraul> wait I cannot follow
2010-08-31 01:01 <wolfspraul> we are talking about the scripts to generate the schematics diffs now, right?
2010-08-31 01:01 <wpwrak> relative paths avoid all this. svn has another way, links into other repositories. not sure if git could do something like this, and at least in the case of svn it's a bit of a pain anyway
2010-08-31 01:02 <wpwrak> err, of the effect the organization of projects sharing files with other projects have on the scripts
2010-08-31 01:03 <wolfspraul> what files do they share?
2010-08-31 01:03 <wolfspraul> .lib files?
2010-08-31 01:03 <wpwrak> ben-wpan right now shares .c and .h files with f32xbase, plus a few special things like makefile templates
2010-08-31 01:04 <wolfspraul> and those dependencies need to be followed for the schematics diff generation?
2010-08-31 01:04 <wpwrak> if/when we make a "common kicad libraries" project (symbols, footprints, not scripts), then also .lib, .mod, and .fpd would be shared
2010-08-31 01:05 <wpwrak> it just assumes they are being satisfied
2010-08-31 01:06 <wpwrak> e.g., assuming ben-wpan lives in /home/qi/ben-wpan
2010-08-31 01:06 <wpwrak> my schematics are in /home/qi/ben-wpan/atrf/*.sch
2010-08-31 01:07 <wolfspraul> hmm, OK. so the scripts have some flexibility in following a ../ link outside of a project top-dir so in the future, links could be constructed between projects
2010-08-31 01:07 <wpwrak> if we had a kicad-libs project, and it would live in /home/qi/kicad-libs/
2010-08-31 01:08 <wpwrak> then ben-wpan could access, say, at86rf230.lib as ../../kicad-libs/components/at86rf230.lib
2010-08-31 01:09 <wolfspraul> I got it. I guess my concern comes from trying to avoid making a qi-specific closed system.
2010-08-31 01:09 <wpwrak> now, the schematics diff generate needs to check out the repository such that these paths still work
2010-08-31 01:09 <wpwrak> ok
2010-08-31 01:09 <wolfspraul> URLs would be better, but the kicad files need to be functional also locally for editing, so I guess for now the ../ thing works nicely both locally and on the server
2010-08-31 01:10 <wpwrak> there's nothing qi-specific about it. if you share stuff across projects, you need some policy. if you install everything globally instead, that will work too
2010-08-31 01:10 <wolfspraul> no projects is nice
2010-08-31 01:10 <wpwrak> kicad won't follow urls :)
2010-08-31 01:10 <wolfspraul> yes :-)
2010-08-31 01:11 <wolfspraul> no it's all good, I got it already.
2010-08-31 01:12 <wpwrak> so when you tell my eeschems diff system that you wish to diff the project at /home/qi/ben-wpan and the schematics rooted at artf/ben-wpan.sch, then it will make a temporary directory /home/qi/_something and check out the /home/qi/ben-wpan/.git/ repository there
2010-08-31 01:12 <wpwrak> in the checkouts, it steps through the revisions
2010-08-31 01:13 <wpwrak> ah yes, there could be conflicts when the shared projects have changes that aren't compatible
2010-08-31 01:14 <wpwrak> well, let's worry about this when it happens :) ideally, the project you share with should be conservative anyway. or else this will be the least of everyone's worries
2010-08-31 01:14 <wolfspraul> there is no such sharing yet anyway, right?
2010-08-31 01:15 <wpwrak> "conservative" = introduce item, debug it, then keep it stable. others would only access it after the debugging.
2010-08-31 01:15 <wpwrak> not yet. but that could change quickly :)
2010-08-31 01:17 <wpwrak> we already have files shared among projects by means of duplication. e.g., stdpass.fpd (small chip component footprints, 0402, 0603, etc.)
2010-08-31 01:17 <wpwrak> also idbg and ben-wpan "share" a lot this way. and ben-wpan "shares" with gta02-core in the same manner.
2010-08-31 01:21 <wpwrak> (a lot) well, the c8051f326, symbol and footprint. ben-wpan generalizes the footprint. and code from idbg went into f32xbase. i just need to connect idbg to all this again, and things will be sane :)
2010-08-31 01:24 <wolfspraul> got it
2010-08-31 01:32 <wpwrak> okay. now all that's missing is the rename tracking and the migration of the scripts in a new project. eda-tools or such.
2010-08-31 01:35 <wpwrak> project could be more specific (schwebdiff or such), but then we may have sharing issues when the time comes to do the same with the layout. at least i hope that much can be shared :)
2010-08-31 01:38 <wpwrak> ah yes, if you like scary scripts, the last command in this one should whet your appetite: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/scripts/schps2pdf
2010-08-31 01:42 <wolfspraul> do you need the 'export' in export i = 1?
2010-08-31 01:42 <wpwrak> unfortunately yes. otherwise, it doesn't make it into the <(...) subshell
2010-08-31 01:43 <wolfspraul> ah yes
2010-08-31 01:44 <wpwrak> actually. maybe that's not true. lemme check. could be that i thought i need it but i don't.
2010-08-31 01:50 <wpwrak> you're right. works without it, like with other types of subshells. found two other bugs as well.
2010-08-31 01:50 <kyak> btw, a nicer way to increment is just ((i++))
2010-08-31 01:51 <wpwrak> i try to keep the bashisms to a minimum :) but you're right, it would make this one a little more readable
2010-08-31 01:52 <kyak> :)
2010-08-31 01:59 <wpwrak> ah, and there's even a real bug left
2010-08-31 02:01 <kyak> under certain conditions, this script allows for local privilege escalation? :)
2010-08-31 02:02 <wpwrak> it almost certainly does :)
2010-08-31 02:04 <wpwrak> naw, it was just missing curly braces in an  eval var=\$$i  so the 10th element didn't work
2010-08-31 02:04 <wpwrak> good that xue did the split ;-)
2010-08-31 02:06 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Debugged and cleaned up schps2pdf. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/541dd04
2010-08-31 02:06 <kyak> your script is quoting hell :)
2010-08-31 02:07 <wpwrak> indeed it is ;-)
2010-08-31 02:08 <kyak> wpwrak: what is the target of ben-wpan project? is it to enable ZigBee communication in Ben?
2010-08-31 02:11 <wpwrak> i'd aim for 6LoWPAN. we would get ZigBee on the way, too, but its IP status isn't quite clear yet
2010-08-31 02:12 <wpwrak> so it may not be good to "advertize" this as ZigBee. besides, 6lowpan may be more interesting anyway.
2010-08-31 02:13 <kyak> never heard of 6LoWPAN.. "IPv6 over Low power Wireless Personal Area Networks" - IPv6 is clear, what does it mean "Low power Wireless Personal Area Networks"?
2010-08-31 02:13 <wpwrak> "on the way" = there's the linux-zigbee project that aims to implement support for things on ieee 802.15.4, including 6lowpan and zigbee
2010-08-31 02:14 <wpwrak> WPAN is the type of network ieee 802.15.4 is designed for. basically for a "bubble" surrounding the user with a 10 m radius
2010-08-31 02:15 <kyak> ok, say, i have a wireless router. To support 6LoWPAN there is just a matter of SW upgrade?
2010-08-31 02:15 <wpwrak> once i get the rf side right, it should be a little more than 10 m, though. the chip is quite a bit better than what the specs require.
2010-08-31 02:15 <wpwrak> naw, you also need an ieee 802.15.4 transceiver
2010-08-31 02:16 <kyak> ah ok
2010-08-31 02:16 <wpwrak> but you could put a usb-to-ieee802.15.4 dongle into your pc and let that one act as a router
2010-08-31 02:17 <wpwrak> by sheer coincidence, the current ben-wpan prototype has a usb interface :)
2010-08-31 02:17 <kyak> i see! what is the real operating range you are getting mnow?
2010-08-31 02:17 <kyak> do you mean, the ben-wpan prototype that you connect to your Ben or your PC?
2010-08-31 02:17 <wpwrak> oh, now it's even less. maybe 3-4 m with a thin wall in the path. but that's crappy rf design on my side.
2010-08-31 02:18 <wpwrak> yup. for now, it only connects to the pc. once that works well, i'll branch off a ben-only version that doesn't have usb and crystal.
2010-08-31 02:19 <kyak> ok, i understand.. sounds great
2010-08-31 02:19 <kyak> looks like a lot of work has to be done
2010-08-31 02:20 <kyak> http://www.msp-technology.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=121
2010-08-31 02:20 <kyak> pretty expensive
2010-08-31 02:21 <kyak> and you are right, they all combine ZigBee / 802.15.4
2010-08-31 02:21 <wpwrak> nice margin :)
2010-08-31 02:22 <kyak> hey, whats the need of "120V AC Adapter (ZR154-AC-USA)"? if there's no Host, there is no sense in this connection
2010-08-31 02:22 <wpwrak> the board that goes into the ben will be quite cheap. but not really user-installable.
2010-08-31 02:23 <wpwrak> i think you can load standalone programs into these dongles
2010-08-31 02:24 <kyak> hm, can't think of possible application
2010-08-31 02:24 <kyak> so this means, ben-wpan will probably go to Ya?
2010-08-31 02:25 <wpwrak> (standalone) maybe you can hook up a sensor in some way
2010-08-31 02:25 <wpwrak> (ya) that would be nice, yes
2010-08-31 02:26 <wpwrak> depends on a number of things, though. e.g., me getting this beast to work properly, and nobody else coming up with something better
2010-08-31 02:26 <kyak> why not a fully functional Wi-Fi chip?
2010-08-31 02:26 <wpwrak> so if you find a USD 5 Free software friendly WiFi module, ben-wpan will be pretty dead ;-)
2010-08-31 02:27 <kyak> ah, so it's the price
2010-08-31 02:27 <wpwrak> see above, note the "if" ;-)
2010-08-31 02:27 <wolfspraul> kyak: more than that. ben-wpan is the kind of feature that makes Ya possible.
2010-08-31 02:28 <wpwrak> price and freedom. there's almost no public technical documentation on most of the wifi chips
2010-08-31 02:28 <wolfspraul> we don't know what it will be, but Ya needs to have some major progress on the freedom side, otherwise what's the point of this project, and when do we reach the free smartphone :-)
2010-08-31 02:28 <wolfspraul> so the Ya process could be entirely in kicad, with visualizations like the stuff werner just did
2010-08-31 02:29 <wolfspraul> and/or it could have some really open RF solution, like ben-wpan
2010-08-31 02:29 <wpwrak> that would be nice :)
2010-08-31 02:29 <wpwrak> that too :)
2010-08-31 02:30 <kyak> yeah, finding affordable and free Wi-Fi chip may be impossible
2010-08-31 02:31 <kyak> wolfspraul: i think, there are actually two features that make Ya possible: wireless connectivity and a better LCD
2010-08-31 02:32 <wolfspraul> hold your expectations down on the better LCD
2010-08-31 02:32 <wolfspraul> at least coming from me that is, maybe someone else picks up the stuff and makes a different product out of it. that can always happen of course.
2010-08-31 02:33 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: did you look if there's some WQVGA you could use ? that wouldn't affect the form factor (well, except rearranging the display shell)
2010-08-31 02:34 <wolfspraul> for the LCD, I will just go with the flow, get whatever is the cheapest and easily available module. Plus something that protects the software we've done so far, for example with Ilitek drive IC.
2010-08-31 02:34 <wolfspraul> no didn't look, that has time until much closer to an actual Ya production
2010-08-31 02:34 <wpwrak> WQVGA would just provide those 80 extra pixels everyone craves ;-)
2010-08-31 02:34 <wpwrak> is the drive ic such a big issue ?
2010-08-31 02:34 <wolfspraul> I am not against better LCM, but you know my priorities. In the end these are all things we can 'just' buy.
2010-08-31 02:35 <wolfspraul> no, not very big. But since it's a 100% community effort I am very careful about "it's just a few lines" comments.
2010-08-31 02:36 <wpwrak> ;-)
2010-08-31 02:37 <kyak> ok, not very encouraging but pretty fair
2010-08-31 02:38 <wpwrak> (just buy) the thing with the narrow display is that it makes the ben look weak. even people who completely "get" then openness message like to have products that look good.
2010-08-31 02:38 <wolfspraul> kyak: don't misunderstand me. I want the best LCM I can get. But it's not an area of active work, because we will not make any headway in terms of opening up that component anyway.
2010-08-31 02:38 <wpwrak> of course, the narrow display leaves room for rf. so there's also something good in this :)
2010-08-31 02:39 <kyak> wolfspraul: is the LCM closed currently?
2010-08-31 02:40 <wolfspraul> well there is little to open, from a free software perspective
2010-08-31 02:40 <kyak> then we can "Just buy" a better LCM, which is the same closed
2010-08-31 02:40 <kyak> or not?
2010-08-31 02:40 <wpwrak> the right side of the display could even host a capacitative sensor (keys or some slider). that way, one could have "functions keys" where they make sense
2010-08-31 02:41 <wolfspraul> the drive IC maybe, and that could lead to interesting optimizations, but there are many more juicy low hanging fruits.
2010-08-31 02:41 <kyak> wpwrak: great idea, at least it would make scrolling easier :)
2010-08-31 02:41 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: so no inauguration of the Sharism Panel Fab anytime soon ? :)
2010-08-31 02:42 <wolfspraul> nope
2010-08-31 02:42 <wpwrak> kyak: now, how to implement this cheaply, without adding a microcontroller ? :)
2010-08-31 02:43 <wolfspraul> kyak: basically if you look at the current LCM module, you can start to think of it as 4 parts: drive IC, FPC, glass, enclosure (called 'module' here)
2010-08-31 02:43 <kyak> i don't know, are there free inputs left on Ben's CPU?
2010-08-31 02:44 <wolfspraul> if you have lots of money, you can customize and optimize everything
2010-08-31 02:44 <wolfspraul> most really high-end products have customized glass dimensions, customized drive ICs, customized filters, customized FPCs
2010-08-31 02:44 <wpwrak> kyak: there are. and you could have more in a new design. even without changing the cpu much.
2010-08-31 02:44 <kyak> wolfspraul: i see.. is the "enclosure" part the one responsible for resolution, right?
2010-08-31 02:45 <wolfspraul> but for our volumes, oh well... :-) I rather spend the tiny money we have on where it matters from a freedom perspective. we have to grow it that way.
2010-08-31 02:45 <wolfspraul> no I mean the metal enclosure
2010-08-31 02:45 <wolfspraul> if you break open the LCM (I doubt you can disassemble it without breaking it), you will see many more parts inside :-)
2010-08-31 02:46 <wolfspraul> so the LCM is also called an 'LCM module'
2010-08-31 02:46 <wolfspraul> same as the 'RF modules' Werner doesn't like
2010-08-31 02:47 <wolfspraul> fiddling with any of this costs a lot of money. and may not net much on the freedom side.
2010-08-31 02:47 <wolfspraul> so first, let's see what really new/innovative things we can get going on the freedom side. Then we find the most cost-effective way to build a nice case around it.
2010-08-31 02:48 <wolfspraul> when you work in that order of things, you look at the LCM size later (or maybe together with mechanical), because you don't assume you can customize that part anyway
2010-08-31 02:48 <kyak> ok, you have the plan and as long as i see you stick to it.. this will lead to success eventually
2010-08-31 02:49 <wolfspraul> he :-) does it sound like that.
2010-08-31 02:49 <wolfspraul> well then, good!
2010-08-31 02:49 <wolfspraul> yes I need to stay away from things that just cost money and create no free innovations
2010-08-31 02:50 <wolfspraul> we first have to create free innovations, they need to generate money, and that money can then be spent to buy whatever shiny box
2010-08-31 02:50 <kyak> yes, this is what i'm talking about - you have a strategy :)
2010-08-31 02:51 <wolfspraul> it's amazing to see though how smartphone lcm resolutions are going up
2010-08-31 02:51 <wolfspraul> seems like a cold war arms race
2010-08-31 02:51 <wolfspraul> I don't even follow in detail anymore, it's all just going up up up it seems
2010-08-31 02:51 <wolfspraul> our 320x240 does look decidedly 80'ish, I agree
2010-08-31 03:00 <kyak> wolfspraul: it's not just the resolution.. my Nokia N73, having the same 320x240 can display much smaller, cleaner and nicer fonts. In fact, putty can display 80x24 terminal just fine
2010-08-31 03:01 <kyak> but ok, no more moaning :")
2010-08-31 03:04 <wolfspraul> kyak: oh we have much nicer fonts now, are those included in your critique already?
2010-08-31 03:05 <kyak> yeah, i have the setfont2 installed, and now the terminal is 50x24 if i remember correctly
2010-08-31 03:05 <wolfspraul> that's another thing - I totally want to max out everything our current Ben hardware can do.
2010-08-31 03:05 <wolfspraul> but it's still not good enough?
2010-08-31 03:05 <kyak> no :)
2010-08-31 03:06 <kyak> we need 80x24 - most console apps are working like this
2010-08-31 03:06 <wolfspraul> that's the default font now because we felt it's the best compromise between readability and amount of characters on screen
2010-08-31 03:06 <kyak> i mean, they are designed to work with at least 80x24
2010-08-31 03:06 <wolfspraul> there are smaller fonts too you can enable with setfont2 I think
2010-08-31 03:06 <kyak> yeah, i know..
2010-08-31 03:07 <kyak> can't work for a long time with 4x8 font :0
2010-08-31 03:07 <kyak> :)
2010-08-31 03:29 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ben-dispshell-outside-100um is done. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-scans/1462d9d
2010-08-31 03:33 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ben-dispshell-inside-1mm is done. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-scans/6564423
2010-08-31 03:45 <viric> someone here use kicad, right?
2010-08-31 03:47 <wpwrak> sure :)
2010-08-31 03:47 <viric> hm
2010-08-31 03:47 <viric> it does not work for me
2010-08-31 03:47 <viric> It says 'eeschema not found', when I click on it
2010-08-31 03:48 <viric> ahh
2010-08-31 03:48 <wpwrak> did you compile it from sources ? or install some packahe ?
2010-08-31 03:48 <viric> it looks only in .,/usr/bin,/usr/local/bin,/usr/local/kicad/bin
2010-08-31 03:48 <viric> sources
2010-08-31 03:48 <wpwrak> did you "make install" ?
2010-08-31 03:48 <viric> yes
2010-08-31 03:49 <viric> I'll go on replacing those strings... I did not install into /usr
2010-08-31 03:49 <wpwrak> it should find it in /usr/local/bin
2010-08-31 03:49 <viric> but I don't have it there
2010-08-31 03:49 <wpwrak> (that's the default)
2010-08-31 03:49 <viric> I did not follow the default :)
2010-08-31 03:49 <wpwrak> ah :)
2010-08-31 03:51 <viric> I expected it to respect CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX
2010-08-31 03:51 <wpwrak> maybe you'll run into similar problems with components (symbols) and modules (footprints)
2010-08-31 03:51 <viric> "KiCad can be installed in '/usr' or '/usr/local'." says the manual
2010-08-31 03:52 <viric> Yes, I already found the trouble with components (because I have eeschema in the path and I can run it)
2010-08-31 03:52 <wpwrak> for once, documentation that's correct ;-)
2010-08-31 03:52 <viric> well...
2010-08-31 03:52 <viric> it will get in trouble if you have both one in /usr and in /usr/local
2010-08-31 03:53 <wpwrak> it will just pick one of the two :)
2010-08-31 03:53 <viric> I'll fix that with a 'sed' string :)
2010-08-31 03:54 <viric> I package it for a distro, so I have to do the things right
2010-08-31 03:55 <wpwrak> ah, nice. which one ?
2010-08-31 03:55 <viric> NixOS
2010-08-31 03:55 <wpwrak> aah, of course ! :)
2010-08-31 03:55 <viric> I also use its build system to build for the nanonote
2010-08-31 03:55 <viric> nix-build -A prboom.hostDrv nanonote.nix
2010-08-31 03:55 <viric> :)
2010-08-31 03:56 <wpwrak> then we'll be able to run kicad on the ben, to view its own schematics :)
2010-08-31 03:56 <viric> hehe
2010-08-31 03:57 <wpwrak> then a little makefile, and out come little new nanonotes :)
2010-08-31 03:57 <viric> exactly
2010-08-31 04:18 <viric> wpwrak: I've to send schematics to a person. I hope kicad will work well for that
2010-08-31 07:52 <rafa> kyak: you just need to use 80x24?
2010-08-31 07:52 <rafa> or you could work with a bit less
2010-08-31 07:52 <rafa> ?
2010-08-31 07:54 <rafa> kyak: if so, you can try this : http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/rxvt-5x7-font.jpg
2010-08-31 07:54 <kyak> rafa: 80x24 is the least usable, i think
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> kyak: we have added xorg fonts so ou can run a terminal with the font you wish
2010-08-31 07:55 <kyak> rafa: looks good, but as i remember keymap is broken in rxvt
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> that would let you test
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> kyak: rxvt keyboard broken?
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> where?
2010-08-31 07:55 <kyak> like function keys, or "Red arrow" ?
2010-08-31 07:55 <kyak> in Jlime
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> nop
2010-08-31 07:55 <rafa> beta 3
2010-08-31 07:56 <kyak> oh!
2010-08-31 07:56 <rafa> has rxvt with keyboard working
2010-08-31 07:56 <rafa> fn key
2010-08-31 07:56 <rafa> red arrow
2010-08-31 07:56 <kyak> need to have a look then, thanks :)
2010-08-31 07:56 <rafa> all is okey
2010-08-31 07:56 <rafa> kyak: when you run terminal in beta3 it will use a bigger font
2010-08-31 07:57 <rafa> if you want to change that just edit /usr/bin/rxvt.sh
2010-08-31 07:57 <rafa> with the font you wish to test
2010-08-31 07:57 <kyak> ok, thanks for the hint
2010-08-31 07:57 <rafa> kyak: the pic shows the 5x7 font
2010-08-31 07:58 <kyak> ok!
2010-08-31 07:58 <viric> wpwrak: Have you tried printing schematics in kicad?
2010-08-31 07:58 <viric> wpwrak: they look quite bad
2010-08-31 07:58 <rafa> kyak: okey, if you do some tests with different fonts tell us which is useful for you so we can use the same :) (there are several fonts in xorg fonts installed)
2010-08-31 08:00 <kyak> mkey :)
2010-08-31 08:01 <kyak> that also gives a chance to have full support of utf-8 in rxvt
2010-08-31 08:01 <kyak> might be less painfull than linux console
2010-08-31 08:01 <wpwrak> viric: hmm, maybe try "plotting" them ?
2010-08-31 08:01 <viric> wpwrak: I'll try
2010-08-31 08:02 <viric> wpwrak: right, much better! Thank you!
2010-08-31 08:02 <wpwrak> (sending schematics) oh yes. you need to know which files to send, though. well, kicad has a "send everything you need" command. not sure if it works well. i generally don't trust such things much :)
2010-08-31 08:04 <viric> I don't need to send something editable by now
2010-08-31 08:06 <wpwrak> ah, postscripts or pdfs are easy
2010-08-31 08:14 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, what's actually the reason for not even considering small layout changes for the next bens ? fear of introducing a stupid bug ? lack of control of the process ? (so a small change would be expensive to implement, e.g., because you'd have to go via the layout house)
2010-08-31 08:15 <wolfspraul> it creates too much work, too much cost
2010-08-31 08:15 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (just read carlos' comment. and i very much agree with the "USB as soon as humanly possible" point)
2010-08-31 08:16 <wpwrak> hmm, if you changes, say, a label in the silk screen, would that already create this sort of work ?
2010-08-31 08:17 <wpwrak> i understand that risky changes are costly. but there's a certain amount of things you can usually change at minimum risk. particularly if you get it reviewed. not sure if routing usb to test points would be among the "easy" changes.
2010-08-31 08:18 <wolfspraul> yes sure. too many people and vendors involved. it will not happen.
2010-08-31 08:18 <wolfspraul> what is Carlos point? and where?
2010-08-31 08:18 <wpwrak> ah, so you don't just send a new set of gebers to the pcb fab
2010-08-31 08:19 <wpwrak> on the list, latest mail "IMO we must provide the USB host lines as Test points in the next run." (unclear whether he means "Ben" or "Ben II"/"Ya", though)
2010-08-31 08:48 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think the frustration everyone feels with USB host is the same you have with my almost readable schematics. so close yet so far :)
2010-08-31 08:52 <wolfspraul> yes agreed _but_ ... it has been discussed many times. we have tried to explain how we got to where we are, and what the priorities are.
2010-08-31 08:52 <wolfspraul> I can send some letters to Santa Claus too...
2010-08-31 08:54 <wpwrak> ;-) i understand perfectly well that you don't want to make expensive/risky changes now. what i don't understand is why this means "no change at all".
2010-08-31 08:55 <wolfspraul> so on the Ben, it will not happen
2010-08-31 08:55 <wolfspraul> the Ben production process still uses proprietary software. otherwise we couldn't produce at all.
2010-08-31 08:55 <wolfspraul> with SIE we are just starting to build up more testing software now, which will be helpful for future NanoNote runs as well
2010-08-31 08:55 <wpwrak> and that's proprietary software you don't have ?
2010-08-31 08:56 <wolfspraul> yes but the vendors we are working with, that are making the PCB, SMT, assembly and testing, cannot make changes unless the volumes are much higher
2010-08-31 08:56 <wolfspraul> it's just uneconomical
2010-08-31 08:57 <wolfspraul> we are going in circles with this. The Ben is a starting point. We knew some of its deficiencies before starting (such as the lack of USB host). Others we found out later.
2010-08-31 08:57 <wolfspraul> with the help of the Ben, we get enough momentum into this to be ready for an economical Ya production of a product that (hopefully, if we worked well), has less deficiencies than the Ben
2010-08-31 08:58 <wpwrak> sure, sure. but where exactly *is* the cost of the change ? we're not talking about tearing the ben another hole ;-)
2010-08-31 08:59 <wolfspraul> don't know I never asked or even thought about it. Maybe once you work with all these people and vendors for so long at some point some numbers are just so obviously off it's not worth to talk about...
2010-08-31 08:59 <wolfspraul> a normal OEM has a MOQ of 10K
2010-08-31 08:59 <wolfspraul> let's just start there
2010-08-31 09:00 <wolfspraul> because we started Qi hardware in the middle of a massive recession, we negotiated it down to 3k
2010-08-31 09:00 <wolfspraul> from there we negotiated further down to 3 'shipments' of 1k each
2010-08-31 09:00 <wpwrak> ;-))
2010-08-31 09:00 <wolfspraul> now, if you zoom into the prices, you will realize really everybody is working with zero margins. literally.
2010-08-31 09:01 <wolfspraul> the entire SMT + assembly/testing costs ca. 3.50 USD
2010-08-31 09:01 <wolfspraul> that's about 300 people working together there to make this happen
2010-08-31 09:01 <wolfspraul> so 1 cent / NanoNote for each one
2010-08-31 09:01 <wpwrak> so your concern is that they would be upset if you made a change in a deal where you're already stretching things. even if the change is perfectly safe and no extra work for them, they may still bark at the sheer concept. is it that ?
2010-08-31 09:01 <wolfspraul> can you please give them a break at some point. they also need to eat and sleep once in a while. and cannot 'skip' eating for a few days or weeks because some customers couldn't do the math right :-)
2010-08-31 09:02 <wolfspraul> it's just impossible
2010-08-31 09:02 <wolfspraul> there are even no people to communicate these 'perfectly safe' changes to
2010-08-31 09:02 <wolfspraul> every new lot in every storage causes administrative overhead
2010-08-31 09:03 <wolfspraul> the only reason we can make 900 Ben is that we are massively sharing stuff with much larger runs
2010-08-31 09:03 <wolfspraul> our 1k order every 6 months is just a blip on the screen
2010-08-31 09:03 <wpwrak> so when you want to make 1000 more units, you don't send an order to a pcb house that makes the boards for you but you go to some one-stop-shopping house that already has the gerbers, case design, etc., and will then make the bens for you, with the actual ordering of pcbs and the like invisible to you ?
2010-08-31 09:04 <wolfspraul> not invisible, we know all the people, all the way to the vendors
2010-08-31 09:04 <wolfspraul> but you cannot strangle your business partners to death
2010-08-31 09:04 <wolfspraul> just look at the numbers, it's scary
2010-08-31 09:05 <wpwrak> is it them who order/make the pcbs ? or do you send them the pcbs and they do the rest ?
2010-08-31 09:05 <wolfspraul> they shouldn't even pickup the phone once - no margin for that :-)
2010-08-31 09:05 <wolfspraul> no we buy the entire product
2010-08-31 09:05 <wolfspraul> we work with an ODM essentially
2010-08-31 09:06 <wpwrak> okay. i think that's the point that wasn't clear enough.
2010-08-31 09:06 <wolfspraul> changes are possible, but uneconomical
2010-08-31 09:06 <wpwrak> and since this is a "3kU in 1kU installments" deal, for all you know, they may already sit on those remaining 2000 PCBs, waiting for your next cheque.
2010-08-31 09:06 <wpwrak> (at least conceptually)
2010-08-31 09:07 <wolfspraul> nobody has margins, so sourcing is very careful
2010-08-31 09:07 <wolfspraul> remember how many people need to be fed in all this
2010-08-31 09:07 <wpwrak> yeah, all the things USD 100 can buy you, it's scary :)
2010-08-31 09:08 <wolfspraul> yes, and how many people work together on this
2010-08-31 09:09 <wpwrak> i'm not arguing that you should squeeze your business partners more. what i'm after is understanding where exactly such changes would even be a problem for them. e.g., it wasn't clear that the administrative process also included the pcb design, probably with approvals and related paperwork.
2010-08-31 09:09 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: keyboard factory as an example (I know, it's not silk/pcb, but to illustrate my point)
2010-08-31 09:09 <wolfspraul> keyboard factory employs 6000 people
2010-08-31 09:09 <wolfspraul> razor thin margins on everything
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> that means every day they have to crank out keyboards
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> if they dont : no money to buy dinner
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> literally
2010-08-31 09:10 <wpwrak> so it's not order PCBs from X, SMT from Y, cases from Z, send everything to W who then put it into the case
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> so they need to make 150k / day
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> now imagine when the early shift comes in and looks at the plan of the day, and they see 150 tiny 1k orders each
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> WHAT A SHITTY DAY THAT WILL BE! :-)
2010-08-31 09:10 <wolfspraul> and they have to finish all this, time has no mercy
2010-08-31 09:11 <wolfspraul> next day the next 150k need to be produced already
2010-08-31 09:11 <wpwrak> the early shift has it good. there will still be money for lunch ;-)
2010-08-31 09:11 <wolfspraul> so those orders, and all their messy little differences and little start/stop problems and what not will be a nightmare
2010-08-31 09:11 <wolfspraul> compare that so a nice day with 3 big orders of 50k each
2010-08-31 09:11 <wolfspraul> s/compare that so/compare that to/
2010-08-31 09:11 <wolfspraul> see my point?
2010-08-31 09:12 <wolfspraul> so when our 1k order comes in, it's already painful for them
2010-08-31 09:12 <wolfspraul> this was only possible because we started in the middle of the worst recession in a while
2010-08-31 09:12 <wolfspraul> so that's keyboards
2010-08-31 09:12 <wolfspraul> but it's the same principle everywhere
2010-08-31 09:12 <wpwrak> yes, what wasn't clear is why a 1 k order without changes would be any less painful than a 1 k order with changes.
2010-08-31 09:13 <wolfspraul> I think the SMT place needs to make about 4-5k / day to pay the bills
2010-08-31 09:13 <wolfspraul> every minute is work, ah minute. it's optimized to the last second.
2010-08-31 09:13 <wpwrak> what you're basically saying is that all this is a pipeline and the next 1-2 k are already further down the pipeline.
2010-08-31 09:13 <wolfspraul> you could say it that way
2010-08-31 09:14 <wolfspraul> you can reach into this pipeline and fiddle around
2010-08-31 09:14 <wolfspraul> but it's painful
2010-08-31 09:14 <wpwrak> thanks. that was the explanation that was missing :)
2010-08-31 09:14 <wolfspraul> and we are already stretching the rules everywhere
2010-08-31 09:14 <wolfspraul> well they are flexible
2010-08-31 09:14 <wolfspraul> but you need to understand their pressure. it's the downside from the low margins and endless optimizations over years.
2010-08-31 09:15 <wolfspraul> these processes are basically continuously being optimized
2010-08-31 09:15 <wolfspraul> but the optimization has negative side-effects of course
2010-08-31 09:15 <wpwrak> yes, that's okay. nobody's arguing (so far ;-) about the quantitative side. what was missing was the qualitative side. i.e., why this would be a problem in the first place.
2010-08-31 09:15 <mstevens> How is Qi world these days? Is there a good status update somewhere?
2010-08-31 09:15 <kyak> wolfspraul: does it also mean that you would have to order 10k pieces of Ya?
2010-08-31 09:15 <wolfspraul> because I know the people I work with and I cannot ask them for more favors.
2010-08-31 09:16 <wolfspraul> Ya will have many interesting challenges.
2010-08-31 09:16 <wolfspraul> again it's not so much 'have to'
2010-08-31 09:16 <wpwrak> e.g., if you'd order your PCBs yourself and ship them do a "does all the rest" house, then there would be no penalty for making changes (as long as the changes don't introduce bugs, naturally), since it would be just a package with pcbs anyway.
2010-08-31 09:16 <wolfspraul> you can order 1 Ya from me, if you pay 1 million USD I may still produce 'some more' in my backyard and ship you the one you ordered.
2010-08-31 09:17 <wolfspraul> so we will see what smart way we find to reuse some Ben stuff, and introduce some new Ya stuff
2010-08-31 09:17 <wpwrak> but since you have a pipeline and you've essentally handed the design over to production, there _is_ a barrier, no matter how small.
2010-08-31 09:17 <wolfspraul> that's why we work with all the Ben vendors one by one
2010-08-31 09:18 <wolfspraul> mstevens: no status update, sorry. need to become more active again on the PR side after the summer break :-)
2010-08-31 09:19 <mstevens> wolfspraul: alternative question, any cool stuff happening?
2010-08-31 09:19 <wolfspraul> mstevens: things are moving in many places, if anything we are spread very thin. Werner has been doing awesome stuff the last 2 months, case scans, 802.15.4 RF work, kicad revision visualizations, counterweights, etc.
2010-08-31 09:19 <wolfspraul> Milkymist One, Xue
2010-08-31 09:19 <wolfspraul> Lars managed to upstream most of the Ben NanoNote kernel in 2.6.36
2010-08-31 09:20 <wolfspraul> Jlime has much improved software.
2010-08-31 09:20 <mstevens> I kinda bought my nanonote on general principles of supporting free gadgets, I look back now and again to see if there's anything fun I can actually do with it :)
2010-08-31 09:20 <wolfspraul> try jlime
2010-08-31 09:20 <mstevens> I did have it setup as very difficult to use ogg p0layer
2010-08-31 09:20 <mstevens> player
2010-08-31 09:20 <wolfspraul> http://jlime.com/wiki/index.php/Jlime_Muffinman
2010-08-31 09:21 <mstevens> looks kinda cool
2010-08-31 09:22 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I think in the future we should be in a better position wrt smaller runs. At least we are working towards that.
2010-08-31 09:25 <wolfspraul> but I think mostly because we do the smaller runs ourselves. I think once you work with companies that do very complex work steps for ridiculous little money, you will always pay the price in some way, for example in their inability to process too many changes, if any.
2010-08-31 09:25 <wolfspraul> and if you still ask for those changes, you are just going to kill them, which also will not help (they will just refuse your business)
2010-08-31 09:25 <wolfspraul> think about it this way: SMT + assembly/testing = 3.50 USD
2010-08-31 09:25 <wolfspraul> so for 3K, that's about 10,000 USD
2010-08-31 09:26 <wolfspraul> for a company that needs to feed 300 people
2010-08-31 09:26 <wolfspraul> and then you want to break down even those 10k USD into smaller chunks, and have some special request after the first 2K, and then after the next 4K, and another one after another 2K.
2010-08-31 09:26 <wolfspraul> It's just impossible.
2010-08-31 09:26 <wpwrak> (organize small runs yourself) yes, i think that's the key. so you can pick whatever suits your needs best.
2010-08-31 09:27 <wolfspraul> the machine is already so crazy optimized it just cannot do this.
2010-08-31 09:27 <wolfspraul> do you know how much work has to get done for those 10K USD? how much can go wrong? how hard they work for that money? it's insane. It's optimized to the last penny.
2010-08-31 09:27 <wpwrak> right now, the volume alone probably doesn't justify going to highly efficient places. even less efficient places would only raise the cost a little. (of course it's nice if you can spare some bucks)
2010-08-31 09:27 <wolfspraul> ah no
2010-08-31 09:27 <wolfspraul> he he
2010-08-31 09:28 <wolfspraul> costs go up a lot
2010-08-31 09:28 <wolfspraul> a lot as in A LOT
2010-08-31 09:28 <wpwrak> however, since you don't have all the pieces of the process under your control, you cannot cherry-pick. so it is all or nothing.
2010-08-31 09:28 <wolfspraul> correct
2010-08-31 09:28 <wolfspraul> it should get fun later
2010-08-31 09:29 <wolfspraul> we only must resist to make all sorts of changes in components that reduce our ability to cherry-pick later
2010-08-31 09:29 <wpwrak> yup. that's one important thing
2010-08-31 09:30 <wpwrak> e.g., no case parts that require production techniques that haven't been invented yet ;-))
2010-08-31 09:30 <wpwrak> (inside joke)
2010-08-31 09:31 <wolfspraul> isn't it amazing that 300 people work together and make 1 cent each on the finished product they are collectively working on?
2010-08-31 09:31 <wolfspraul> I continue to be amazed by this and thinking about it...
2010-08-31 09:32 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: 2.5V current sensor added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/136717f
2010-08-31 09:32 <wpwrak> bah, in qi-hw we have scores of people who make even 0 cents on the product they're collectively working on. heck, they even pay for it ;-)
2010-08-31 09:33 <wolfspraul> and these are very complex processes, with a lot of testing going on, a lot of 'return 2 stations, repair this', rinse and repeat...
2010-08-31 09:33 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: so you've out-optimized the chinese :)
2010-08-31 09:37 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think it would be good to post an explanation why such small changes are more difficult that one would expect to the list. until now, that point wan't clear even to people who try to have reasonable expectations.
2010-08-31 09:38 <wolfspraul> what clarified it for you now? the pipeline?
2010-08-31 09:38 <wolfspraul> I like that word, fits with reality :-)
2010-08-31 09:38 <wolfspraul> yes there is a pipeline, definitely. deep into the vendors.
2010-08-31 09:38 <wpwrak> pipeline and that the deal is for more than those 1k units.
2010-08-31 09:39 <wpwrak> "deal" or perhaps "understanding"
2010-08-31 09:39 <wolfspraul> oh sure. much more. the steel tool, for example, will be maxed out to 250k, no matter what :-)
2010-08-31 09:39 <wolfspraul> no matter how many products have to share the same look
2010-08-31 09:39 <wolfspraul> well actually it will be worn out until the tolerances become too big, but they try to manage it well and produce as much as possible
2010-08-31 09:39 <wpwrak> and the reason for needing such an arrangement is of course that there are many things you can't go cherry-picking for yet
2010-08-31 09:40 <wpwrak> (steel tool) sure, but that only matters if you want to make a case change or when you're not able to get the case parts from another source
2010-08-31 09:40 <wpwrak> we can exclude the case change but the sourcing issue would continue to exist
2010-08-31 09:41 <wpwrak> (another source) or without the rest of the package attached to it
2010-08-31 09:42 <wpwrak> i.e., if you went to the same guys and asked them to make nanonotes with a board you supply, smt and tested, this would be a different kind of deal, with different prices, and maybe they wouldn't even want to do it.
2010-08-31 09:43 <wolfspraul> that's probably what we will do with Ya
2010-08-31 09:43 <wolfspraul> in fact we are talking with them already now, to prepare, see who is interested in what, etc.
2010-08-31 09:43 <wpwrak> and, most of it, it would be a radical change to what you've negotiated with them for now. nobody likes customers who pay poorly and ask for crazy changes all the time :)
2010-08-31 09:43 <wolfspraul> YES!
2010-08-31 09:43 <wpwrak> (ya) that sounds good
2010-08-31 09:44 <wolfspraul> and 'pay poorly and ask for changes all the time' unfortunately is a common habit among electronics industry customers
2010-08-31 09:44 <wolfspraul> so everybody is on the lookout
2010-08-31 09:45 <wolfspraul> you want to work with people that make 5 USD a day, no, you not only 'want to' work with them, you absolutely insist to _only_ work with such people
2010-08-31 09:45 <wpwrak> right now, you need those "one stop shopping" houses because you can't so the individual steps in a useful way. be it because you lack contacts, expertise, just time to set them up, because they're not available at reasonable cost, whatever.
2010-08-31 09:45 <wpwrak> s/so the/do the/
2010-08-31 09:45 <wolfspraul> and then on top, your orders don't come in as a regular stream, and then on top of that you want these people to understand all sorts of great new ideas you had along the way
2010-08-31 09:46 <wpwrak> oh yes. no only ask them crazy stuff, ask them to be _enthusistic_ about it, too ;-))
2010-08-31 09:46 <wolfspraul> mostly for Ya we are lacking production testing software, a solid SOP document (IKEA style) that someone can walk through
2010-08-31 09:47 <wolfspraul> for the vendors we have established contacts and connections everywhere, continue a bit here and there, second source etc.
2010-08-31 09:47 <wpwrak> make sure you look suitable disappointed in them if they don't follow your presentation of radical changes with standing ovations ;-))
2010-08-31 09:47 <wolfspraul> for example I will try to find a smaller keyboard factory, not just that scary one with 6000 employees
2010-08-31 09:48 <kristianpaul> 08:17 < wolfspraul> so we will see what smart way we find to reuse some Ben stuff, and introduce some new Ya stuff
2010-08-31 09:48 <kristianpaul> nice
2010-08-31 09:48 <wolfspraul> ah no, it's all just simple math. and if they don't have enough money to eat, well, they will simply not do the work. big surprise :-)
2010-08-31 09:48 <wpwrak> (keyboard) as an aside, i'd love to see that get customizable. that could be a key [no pun intended] for OEM applications.
2010-08-31 09:48 <wolfspraul> yes so I want to find smaller and more flexible (he he) keyboard makers
2010-08-31 09:49 <wolfspraul> of course I still only want to pay 3.50 USD / keyboard
2010-08-31 09:49 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-08-31 09:49 <wolfspraul> just kidding. Like I said I am able to follow simple math. And if the work needs so and so many minutes, and so and so many people are involved, then the price will be such and such or no keyboard.
2010-08-31 09:49 <wpwrak> as long as everyone's an asshole, if you just treat them a little less nasty than the rest, they'll think you're mother theresa ;-))
2010-08-31 09:50 <wolfspraul> I try to be very open upfront about our volumes.
2010-08-31 09:50 <wolfspraul> and so far I think everybody appreciates that and actually is very supportive of the project.
2010-08-31 09:51 <wolfspraul> in the meantime, I do not expect impossible things like workers paying 1 USD / hour for the privilege of working on my product :-)
2010-08-31 09:51 <wpwrak> well, low cost is good for the baseline. i don't care much about it for customizations. so, ideally, you'd have both paths - a design that can be produced efficiently in medium to large quantities, and that still allows small-volume customized runs.
2010-08-31 09:51 <wolfspraul> yes correct!
2010-08-31 09:52 <wolfspraul> exactly my thinking, hopefully we slowly get there - as we get better to make small runs.
2010-08-31 09:52 <wpwrak> the key for the latter being modularity, absence of crazily difficult elements, open design, and a resonably open/documented production process.
2010-08-31 09:52 <wolfspraul> all agree
2010-08-31 09:52 <wolfspraul> so the most interesting decisions from Ben to Ya will be what we change, what we don't change. the criteria.
2010-08-31 09:53 <wolfspraul> on the mechanical side, I do not like some of the glued stuff.
2010-08-31 09:53 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: what is a small for you in numbers?
2010-08-31 09:53 <wolfspraul> I do not like the plastic clips around the frame.
2010-08-31 09:53 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: you mean small run?
2010-08-31 09:53 <wolfspraul> anything < 1000
2010-08-31 09:53 <kristianpaul> ok
2010-08-31 09:54 <wolfspraul> 500 is maybe in the middle
2010-08-31 09:54 <wpwrak> (mech) i'd go for screws, just to keep things simple
2010-08-31 09:54 <wolfspraul> but < 500 is definitely typically called 'small run'
2010-08-31 09:54 <wpwrak> (mech) not sure about glue. seems to be unavoidable for some things. but agreed, the less the better
2010-08-31 09:55 <wolfspraul> in other words the normal production SMT/assembly places cannot process such small orders. or don't want to, because they are over-optimized as I explained above.
2010-08-31 09:55 <wpwrak> (mech) if you can get control of the case making process, then some of these things will happen just naturally, because you'll be forced to keep things simple ;-)
2010-08-31 09:55 <wolfspraul> yes, that would be great
2010-08-31 09:56 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: you may end building a small SMY/assembly factotry some how
2010-08-31 09:56 <kristianpaul> well not build as the sense of make
2010-08-31 09:56 <kristianpaul> s/build/arrange
2010-08-31 09:56 <wolfspraul> oh no. just the knowledge. documentation, software, etc.
2010-08-31 09:57 <kristianpaul> ok
2010-08-31 09:57 <wolfspraul> all freely documented and licensed of course.
2010-08-31 09:57 <wolfspraul> anybody can use this to manufacture.
2010-08-31 09:57 <wolfspraul> I will absolutely 100% not start to buy my own pick and place machines etc.
2010-08-31 09:58 <kristianpaul> ok
2010-08-31 09:58 <wpwrak> now, if just someone who knows about mechanical stuff would take the lead there. you can of course wait until i get around do doing that, because it does bother me to not have control over this type of things, but someone with the right experience and the right tools should be able to beat me by a decade or two ...
2010-08-31 09:58 <kristianpaul> but is soo hard get small runs on china?
2010-08-31 09:58 <kristianpaul> i guess there is market for everthing..
2010-08-31 09:58 <wolfspraul> yes sure but then it gets expensive
2010-08-31 09:59 <kristianpaul> ahh true the expensive balance..
2010-08-31 09:59 <wpwrak> not sure if a basic smt line is really that expensive. it would have its benefits for prototype runs.
2010-08-31 09:59 <kristianpaul> why not just got cheap SMT and document more assembly
2010-08-31 09:59 <wpwrak> and an automated line that can do tens of prototypes can also do 1000 units. shifts the point where you need to go to the bigger houses.
2010-08-31 10:01 <kristianpaul> well i must leave (real life work)
2010-08-31 10:01 <kristianpaul> bbl
2010-08-31 10:01 <wpwrak> but let's talk about this when your main worry is where to invest all the money ;-)
2010-08-31 10:07 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: it's not just the machines, it's the entire company and their people you need to think about.
2010-08-31 10:07 <wolfspraul> companies are targeting different customers, and have the appropriate staff and technical equipment for whatever they are targeting
2010-08-31 10:08 <wolfspraul> there is a lot of diversity in PCB and SMT houses
2010-08-31 10:08 <wolfspraul> so it's not about what they 'can' (theoretically) do, based on outside speculation. it's about what they have been optimized for, and are competitive at.
2010-08-31 10:09 <wolfspraul> some of them are upgrading their equipment, because it's part of their strategy and how they operate.
2010-08-31 10:09 <wolfspraul> some don't. they will just be setup with equipment X, and then they will run down that equipment, and produce whatever that equipment is best suited for, at the lowest possible prices.
2010-08-31 10:09 <wpwrak> (company and people) sure. if you have an smt line, you'd need someone in charge of maintaining and operating it. "operating" also in the sense of making incoming designs match
2010-08-31 10:10 <wolfspraul> and those places don't even need anyone to think about what 'else' would be possible, if they only added this or that 'little' thing. It wasn't setup like this. The point was to produce ABC at rock bottom prices.
2010-08-31 10:10 <wolfspraul> others can try other strategies, but that place may be using this strategy. end of story.
2010-08-31 10:10 <wpwrak> so that's something useful if you do many small runs
2010-08-31 10:11 <wpwrak> yup, that's MP again
2010-08-31 10:11 <wpwrak> i'm thinking more of R&D and customization
2010-08-31 10:11 <wolfspraul> sure, I just try to explain why sometimes seemingly simple/little things turn out to be so hard.
2010-08-31 10:12 <wolfspraul> it depends on whom you are presenting your 'little' things to, and how they have been setup
2010-08-31 10:12 <wpwrak> "little" changes also need to be in relation to the money they can make with it ;-)
2010-08-31 10:12 <wolfspraul> this problem only exists because of an almost insane optimization down to the last penny
2010-08-31 10:12 <wpwrak> smt fab != university of manfacturing ;-)
2010-08-31 10:13 <wolfspraul> so even some common sense things cannot be done sometimes, the people are just not there that would understand _anything_ :-)
2010-08-31 10:14 <wolfspraul> so while an SMT place like Minbo that we used for the Milymist One RC1 run (6 pieces) can make larger runs, it's unusual for them to get such orders, or at least not for too long, because they will be too expensive
2010-08-31 10:14 <wolfspraul> they have all these expensive people walking around the floor...
2010-08-31 10:15 <wolfspraul> so the brains of these people are under-utilized if a 5k run is being processed. and at some point even their choice of equipment may not be ideal for larger runs, or it may not be configured well for larger runs, etc.
2010-08-31 10:16 <wolfspraul> there is too much optimization going on for 1 super-automated machine to be able to scale from 1 to 1 million and always be competitive with companies (and real people) that have specialized
2010-08-31 10:16 <wpwrak> wow, 6 pieces is tiny indeed. how do you even feed pick and place efficiently for that ? :)
2010-08-31 10:16 <wolfspraul> in SMT you basically pay for time
2010-08-31 10:16 <wolfspraul> is like you rent the floor, by the hour (roughly)
2010-08-31 10:16 <wpwrak> yeah, there are different classes of machines
2010-08-31 10:17 <wpwrak> so you do R&D runs in .cn or in .tw ?
2010-08-31 10:18 <wolfspraul> Taiwan
2010-08-31 10:18 <wolfspraul> we are also cherry-picking between Taiwan and China :-)
2010-08-31 10:18 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2010-08-31 10:36 <kristianpaul> back :)
2010-08-31 10:42 <qi-bot> [commit] Carlos Camargo: Fixing some examples, adding scripts for compiling xilinx libs with ghdl http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/acf516e
2010-08-31 10:43 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: you have an efficient way of dealing with that "real work" :)
2010-08-31 10:45 <wpwrak> hmm, thunderstorm. and risk of brownouts. luckily i only have a medium sized scan running.
2010-08-31 11:07 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: yeah was fast :)
2010-08-31 11:07 <kristianpaul> actyually i cant complaint with my work at all
2010-08-31 11:07 <kristianpaul> yeah better said pay work instead of real work
2010-08-31 11:07 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-08-31 12:08 <bartbes> so on the mailing list x11 forwarding was mentioned
2010-08-31 12:08 <bartbes> so I was wondering
2010-08-31 12:08 <bartbes> are there any applications in the image that have x backends?
2010-08-31 12:13 <zear> perhaps it was about jlime?
2010-08-31 12:14 <bartbes> oh, that is not what I mean
2010-08-31 12:15 <bartbes> I mean I was just wondering whether there already is an application in the image having a (working) x backend
2010-08-31 12:15 <bartbes> so I can test
2010-08-31 12:15 <bartbes> for when I ever want to use it
2010-08-31 12:15 <bartbes> it seems SDL is compiled without x support
2010-08-31 12:17 <wpwrak> grr. involuntary desktop cleanup by x server crash :-(
2010-08-31 12:22 <lekernel> you see: X is junk
2010-08-31 12:23 <lekernel> that's what I've always been saying
2010-08-31 12:23 <lekernel> instability is only one of its numerous problems (though I will admit is has improved since XFree86)
2010-08-31 12:27 <lekernel> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/x-windows/disaster.html
2010-08-31 12:39 <wpwrak> lekernel: i think it's some ubuntu depedency problem. never had this kind of trouble until after the last major upgrade. i should probably reinstall from scratch. it's probably using some old incompatible driver/library.
2010-08-31 13:22 <wpwrak> lekernel: the holy grail analogy is nice ;)
2010-08-31 13:32 <kyak> i don't understand.. trying to install latest Jlime from within Ben, it hangs at mkfs.ext2 (i.e. mkfs.ext2 is doing nothing). It's strange, because I've done this several times before..
2010-08-31 13:47 <kyak> i'm going to install the latest image from 26th of August instead of the image i just built myself
2010-08-31 13:47 <rafa> kyak: me here for a wil
2010-08-31 13:47 <rafa> while
2010-08-31 13:48 <kyak> rafa: the prob is, i don't have the microSD card reader, so always have to install Jlime from within openwrt
2010-08-31 13:48 <kyak> and for some reason it fails this time./.
2010-08-31 13:48 <rafa> kyak: ah... and now mkfs.ext2 freezes? :(
2010-08-31 13:48 <kyak> yeap
2010-08-31 13:48 <rafa> weird
2010-08-31 13:48 <kyak> indeed!
2010-08-31 13:49 <rafa> are the partitions okey? i mean.. i would not know what to check anyway
2010-08-31 13:49 <rafa> have you had patience? :)
2010-08-31 13:49 <rafa> i mean. if it run for a long time
2010-08-31 13:49 <kyak> partition is ok, i just unmounted it
2010-08-31 13:50 <kyak> and i was patient, though it usually only takes seconds
2010-08-31 13:50 <kyak> flashin rootfs now, let's see if it'll help
2010-08-31 13:51 <rafa> are you flashing openwrt ?
2010-08-31 13:51 <kyak> yes
2010-08-31 13:51 <rafa> have you used the same kernel and openwrt last time that mkfs.ext2 worked okey?
2010-08-31 13:52 <kyak> no, definitely not.. i reflashed since that
2010-08-31 13:54 <rafa> ah... okey.. so there are a lot things to check maybe.. kernel version, kernel support for sd, ext2, etc. mkfs.ext2 versions, if there was swap last time..
2010-08-31 13:54 <kyak> these things are pretty much the same.. could be some mess with libraries during build
2010-08-31 13:55 <rafa> you can try jlime on nand as wellif you know how to reflash easily
2010-08-31 13:55 <kyak> nah, i'll better keep Jlime on SD :)
2010-08-31 13:55 <rafa> if your build lets you :)
2010-08-31 14:04 <kyak> hm..hmm
2010-08-31 14:04 <kyak> it is absolutely the same
2010-08-31 14:04 <kyak> last two lines in strace are
2010-08-31 14:05 <kyak> ioctl(0, TIOCNXCL, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 0
2010-08-31 14:05 <kyak> ioctl(1, TIOCNXCL, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 0
2010-08-31 14:05 <kyak> this is when run without arguments
2010-08-31 14:05 <kyak> and then nothing
2010-08-31 14:15 <kyak> will flash 2010-06-15 image now
2010-08-31 14:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Juan64Bits: Modifying USB H-D http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/d02e783
2010-08-31 14:29 <kyak> ...and it works!
2010-08-31 14:30 <kyak> openwrt-xburst is badly broken at some point -\
2010-08-31 14:30 <kyak> i suppose it is after switching to a next uClibc version
2010-08-31 14:36 <kyak> now unpacking Jlime
2010-08-31 14:42 <kyak> rafa: btw, Jlime's rootfs already includes /boot/uImage. Is it as expected?
2010-08-31 14:49 <kyak> rafa: 5x7 font is not really readable in rxvt
2010-08-31 14:50 <kyak> setfont2 from openwrt-packages makes use of Ben's special LCD much better
2010-08-31 14:50 <viric> how special it is?
2010-08-31 14:50 <kyak> special like this:
2010-08-31 14:50 <kyak>  .
2010-08-31 14:51 <kyak> . .
2010-08-31 14:51 <kyak>  .
2010-08-31 14:51 <kyak> means, pixels are in chess order
2010-08-31 14:51 <kyak> not one under another
2010-08-31 14:52 <kyak> rafa: great job with other apps and fixing the keymap in rxvt!
2010-08-31 14:52 <viric> ahh
2010-08-31 14:53 <kyak> this claendar looks interesting :)
2010-08-31 14:54 <kyak> curses based calendar - definitely my outlook and gmail friends will get jealous :)
2010-08-31 15:01 <kyak> power button now works, too!
2010-08-31 15:07 <viric> If you see a SIGBUS...
2010-08-31 15:07 <viric> what do you think?
2010-08-31 15:07 <viric> a bad alignment memory access?
2010-08-31 15:10 <mth> most likely, yes
2010-08-31 15:11 <viric> oh.
2010-08-31 16:48 <bartbes> looking at sdl's makefile it seems x support is built
2010-08-31 16:48 <bartbes> so.. how do I use it?
2010-08-31 16:54 <mth> on libsdl.org, look up the documentation of the SDL envvars
2010-08-31 16:54 <mth> there is one to specify which video driver to use
2010-08-31 16:54 <mth> probably something like SDL_VIDEODRIVER=x11, but look it up to be sure
2010-08-31 16:55 <mth> you also need DISPLAY set to use X
2010-08-31 16:56 <bartbes> yeah
2010-08-31 16:56 <bartbes> done that
2010-08-31 16:56 <bartbes> no result
2010-08-31 16:57 <bartbes> (using X forwarding..
2010-08-31 16:57 <bartbes> which..
2010-08-31 16:57 <bartbes> now that I think of it might not be enabled in my conf)
2010-08-31 17:00 <bartbes> where is the nn's ssh.conf?
2010-08-31 17:04 <bartbes> I don't even see the ssh server..
2010-08-31 17:06 <bartbes> ah dropbear
2010-08-31 17:08 <bartbes> ah
2010-08-31 17:08 <bartbes> sh: /usr/X11R6/bin/xauth: not found
2010-08-31 18:14 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: i'm etching a couple of breakout boards right now
2010-08-31 18:15 <Ornotermes> i have always had a bit problem with smudged lines, but now it seems to work
2010-08-31 18:23 <unclouded> Ornotermes: can we have a photo of your boards once they're etched and cleaned?
2010-08-31 18:25 <Ornotermes> shure, but i can't fix the shape tonight
2010-08-31 18:48 <wpwrak> Ornotermes: excellent ! ;-)
2010-08-31 18:48 <wpwrak> Ornotermes: now we should have all this in KiCad :)
2010-08-31 18:49 <Ornotermes> well, it's done... a few shorts but that was kind of expected :P
2010-08-31 18:50 <wpwrak> 0.2 mm is plenty :)
2010-08-31 18:54 <wpwrak> you could make a little board with ten LEDs for tuxbrain
2010-08-31 18:56 <wpwrak> btw, brilliant idea to make a board for uSD, congratulations !
2010-08-31 18:58 <Ornotermes> http://slashhome.se/p/uSD_breakout/
2010-08-31 18:58 <Ornotermes> some more images
2010-08-31 19:00 <wpwrak> nice lighting of the acid ;-)
2010-08-31 19:00 <Ornotermes> thanks :)
2010-08-31 19:00 <Ornotermes> had my flashlight behind it to see the progress better
2010-08-31 19:00 <wpwrak> did you change the track on the right edge ?
2010-08-31 19:00 <Ornotermes> no not yet
2010-08-31 19:01 <wpwrak> (flashlight) ;-))
2010-08-31 19:02 <Ornotermes> i will change that and a couple of other things later
2010-08-31 19:02 <Ornotermes> and thanks wpwrak :)
2010-08-31 19:07 <wpwrak> have you used kicad yet ? would be nice to have all this accessible with a Free tool.
2010-08-31 19:07 <Ornotermes> maybe it could be an idea to add another uSD slot to NN in the future, but as an expansion port with SPI/I2C/GPIO instead of sd(even if could be bit banged)
2010-08-31 19:08 <wpwrak> yes. maybe the next cpu will even have two sd interfaces, so each could get its own.
2010-08-31 19:09 <wpwrak> make the second slot face towards an open internal space (battery) and voila
2010-08-31 19:09 <wpwrak> also, make it a friction lock, not the push-to-lock/unlock type, so the card can be flush with the edge'
2010-08-31 19:10 <wpwrak> also, there's nothing preventing anyone from routing sd and spi to the slot. maybe with an NC resistor in the part so that one can choose whether to join them or not
2010-08-31 19:10 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: but for hardware expansion i think SPI and I2C is most interesting
2010-08-31 19:11 <wpwrak> yup, agreed
2010-08-31 19:11 <Ornotermes> also, i have an idea of a special conecor for the usb
2010-08-31 19:13 <Ornotermes> so when nothing is connected the usb goes staight to external, but if one connects a internal board (like 2port hub + bluetooth) usb goes to the hub and one goes to external and the rest can be used by devices on the internal expansion board
2010-08-31 19:14 <Ornotermes> but it would probably require more space
2010-08-31 19:15 <wpwrak> hmm, sounds complicated. could also cause problems with signal integrity
2010-08-31 19:16 <Ornotermes> maybe, but it would make it possible to add internal usb devices, and still have the port avaliable
2010-08-31 19:21 <wpwrak> the whole usb setup may change with the next cpu anyway. so there's a chance that there will be an extra port we could use for such things
2010-08-31 19:21 <wpwrak> but details on that cpu are still scarce
2010-08-31 19:37 <wpwrak> Ornotermes: do you have the coordinates/sizes for the uSD card in mm ?
2010-08-31 19:37 <wpwrak> Ornotermes: i'd like to make a footprint with fped (for kicad)
2010-08-31 19:39 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: not really, but most pads are 3x2 mm (i think)
2010-08-31 19:43 <wpwrak> they must be something like 3x0.9, with a 0.2 mm gap. some are a bit longer, maybe 3.3x0.9
2010-08-31 19:43 <wpwrak> but i was thinking more of the package outline
2010-08-31 19:45 <Ornotermes> i'm not sure of my measures yet, but you can take a look at the high res version of my board layout
2010-08-31 19:46 <Ornotermes> http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=2857&g2_imageViewsIndex=2
2010-08-31 19:46 <wpwrak> hmm, but that still doesn't give me measures
2010-08-31 19:47 <wpwrak> ah well, i'll just draw my own and see what happens. your scan is a great starting point
2010-08-31 19:48 <Ornotermes> its 1200dpi, so in a way it does ;)
2010-08-31 19:48 <Ornotermes> and uSD is 11 x 15 mm
2010-08-31 19:52 <Ornotermes> seems like my board might have been just a bit bigger than it should
2010-08-31 19:53 <Ornotermes> but it might be a printer problem
2010-08-31 19:54 <wpwrak> they're usually very precise
2010-08-31 19:57 <Ornotermes> maybe look at it tomorrow, could be i who set dpi or something wrong too
2010-08-31 19:57 <wpwrak> how wide is the board you made ?
2010-08-31 19:58 <Ornotermes> i draw it 11mm
2010-08-31 19:58 <Ornotermes> but the lines was too thin to survive toner transfer and etching
2010-08-31 19:58 <wpwrak> ah, i see
2010-08-31 20:02 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=2885&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 there is higher res but my uplink is a bit slow
2010-08-31 20:05 <wpwrak> darn. indeed a bit too big
2010-08-31 20:05 <wpwrak> what pitch did you use ?
2010-08-31 20:06 <Ornotermes> pitch?
2010-08-31 20:07 <wpwrak> distance from pad center to pad center
2010-08-31 20:07 <Ornotermes> should be 1.2 mm
2010-08-31 20:07 <Ornotermes> 0.5 pad, 0.2 space, 0.5 pad
2010-08-31 20:08 <wpwrak> i think it's 1.1 mm
2010-08-31 20:08 <Ornotermes> yeah, might be
2010-08-31 20:08 <wpwrak> yes, 1.1 mm
2010-08-31 20:09 <wpwrak> 1.1 mm is what i got from your scan. also, when looking at a uSD holder, the pin spacing is 1.1 mm
2010-08-31 20:09 <Ornotermes> oh, ok
2010-08-31 20:11 <Ornotermes> then i have some changes to do
2010-08-31 20:11 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: and if you make a KiCad version i happily link to it
2010-08-31 20:12 <wpwrak> great. i'll have it in a bit. the outline already looks good
2010-08-31 20:13 <wpwrak> now .. which pin is #1 :)
2010-08-31 20:14 <Ornotermes> DATA2
2010-08-31 20:14 <Ornotermes> counting from the cut corner
2010-08-31 20:15 <wpwrak> yup. agrees with what the card holders say
2010-08-31 20:16 <Ornotermes> good :)
2010-08-31 20:21 <Ornotermes> i changed the pad size, looks much more like a real card :)
2010-08-31 20:23 <wpwrak> great. my footprint is about to get ready ...
2010-08-31 20:29 <wpwrak> http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/usd-card.ps
2010-08-31 20:30 <wpwrak> let's see what reality has to say about these dimensions ...
2010-08-31 20:31 <wpwrak> the line along the back is the clearance needed for push-pull holders
2010-08-31 20:32 <wpwrak> well, to be more precise, the ben's case, according to my measurements :)
2010-08-31 20:37 <Ornotermes> wpwrak: looks good
2010-08-31 20:41 <wpwrak> Ornotermes: how do you transcibe your last name into ASCII ? Lindstroem ?
2010-08-31 20:41 <Ornotermes> that or Lindstrom
2010-08-31 20:42 <wpwrak> which variant do you prefer ?
2010-08-31 20:43 <Ornotermes> i dont really care but i think Linstrom would sound less weird than people trying to pronounce Lindstroem :P
2010-08-31 20:45 <wpwrak> http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/commit/8827771fbf816e7a834f689adb193d6f9722c5ce/
2010-08-31 20:47 <Ornotermes> oh well time to sleep
2010-08-31 20:47 <wpwrak> europe ?
2010-08-31 20:47 <Ornotermes> yup
2010-08-31 20:47 <Ornotermes> 2:45 in the morning
2010-08-31 20:48 <wpwrak> the best time to work ;-)
2010-08-31 20:48 <wpwrak> particularly if it involves a dremel ;-)
2010-08-31 20:48 <Ornotermes> especially when you live in a apertment ;)
2010-08-31 20:49 <Ornotermes> but now good night
2010-08-31 20:49 <wpwrak> yeah :) make sure your neighbours don't forget you :)
2010-08-31 20:49 <wpwrak> sweet dreams ! :)
2010-08-31 21:20 <unclouded> how would software on the Ben control the uSD lines?
2010-08-31 21:21 <wpwrak> unclouded: it could write directly to the port registers
2010-08-31 21:22 <wpwrak> or you can make a kernel driver that does all this properly :)
2010-08-31 21:23 <unclouded> would it interfere with the part of the kernel that interfaces with uSD cards?
2010-08-31 21:23 <wpwrak> you just override it ;-)
2010-08-31 21:24 <unclouded> is it built as a module and I can simply unload the module and then write to the port registers?
2010-08-31 21:24 <wpwrak> you can check: lsmod
2010-08-31 21:27 <unclouded> ok.  what would the module be called?
2010-08-31 21:28 <wpwrak> something mmc, mci, maybe sd
2010-08-31 21:31 <unclouded> doesn't seem so then.  With OpenWRT 2010-06-15 there are a lot of ALSA modules ( snd_*), "tun" and "ks7010".  nothing else
2010-08-31 21:34 <wpwrak> doesn't sound like it then. you can also disable things via sysfs to some extent, but i don't think this really helps in this case
2010-08-31 21:36 <unclouded> would it be silly to insert a uSD breakout board wired to a project while the MMC driver is still active?
2010-08-31 21:37 <wpwrak> hmm. good question :) depends a lot on what the board does
2010-08-31 21:37 <wpwrak> generally, nothing untoward should happen
2010-08-31 21:37 <wpwrak> even if you short things
2010-08-31 21:37 <unclouded> does uSD do current limiting like EIA-232?
2010-08-31 21:38 <unclouded> is that why it's OK to accidentally short things?
2010-08-31 21:40 <wpwrak> some SD do current limiting. but i kinda doubt the TM2301N is good at it (Q4, on the MEMORY sheet)
2010-08-31 21:40 <wpwrak> it's okay because you shouldn't be able to short power directly. and I/Os usually have a high internal resistance. 100 Ohm or so. enough that nothing bad happens.
2010-08-31 21:42 <unclouded> ah, ok.  just don't short Vcc to GND ;)
2010-08-31 21:43 <wpwrak> fortunately, these two are at fixed positions :)
2010-08-31 21:44 <unclouded> Qi Hardware is the number one search result for "TM2301N" with Yahoo
2010-08-31 21:45 <rafa> kyak: hey
2010-08-31 21:46 <wpwrak> unclouded: victory ! ;-)
2010-08-31 21:47 <wpwrak> unclouded: there's a link here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Inventory
2010-08-31 21:47 <rafa> kyak: power button worked in beta2 as well :) BTW, colors have an important effect on fonts as well.
2010-08-31 21:47 <wpwrak> (very very useful page)
2010-08-31 21:47 <unclouded> wpwrak: maybe we should use one of every electronics component we can find so we get all this free publicity ;)
2010-08-31 21:48 <rafa> kyak: if you want to know more names of xorg font read the /usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc/fonts.alias file on nn
2010-08-31 21:49 <wpwrak> unclouded: and make mortal enemies at every fab ;-)
2010-08-31 22:34 <kristianpaul> hey i love this side i always found something usefull there http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/IO-Port-Programming.html
2010-08-31 22:50 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: you can try this - works also on the ben  http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/poke/
2010-08-31 22:51 <wpwrak> also useful for checking how things are set up without having to wade through half of the kernel sources
2010-08-31 22:51 <kristianpaul> great
2010-08-31 22:51 <kristianpaul> heh i just discover UML exists few minutes ago :p
2010-08-31 22:52 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: seems that we have found our extension card connector ;)
2010-08-31 22:52 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: the tiny PCB on the lists?
2010-08-31 22:52 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: User-Mode-Linux ? Ugly Modelling Language ?
2010-08-31 22:53 <wpwrak> yup. or rather the uSD card holder
2010-08-31 22:53 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: linux thing :)
2010-08-31 22:55 <wpwrak> uml is kewl. are they still maintaining it ? i once wrote a little simulator on top of it (umlsim). didn't keep maintaining it, though.
2010-08-31 22:55 <kristianpaul> ah
2010-08-31 22:56 <kristianpaul> well
2010-08-31 22:56 <kristianpaul> erase UML from his mind
2010-08-31 22:56 <kristianpaul> qemu is our ffriend :)
2010-08-31 22:57 <wpwrak> naw, the simulator knew about kernel internals. it could affect time as well. so you could simulate, say, a wget over a link with a certain delay.
2010-08-31 22:57 <kristianpaul> hm...
2010-08-31 22:58 <kristianpaul> well i have a nanonote whos needs a sofware simulator ;)
2010-08-31 22:58 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes I saw it. sounds good, let's see what comes out of it. Too many things going on for me right now :-)
2010-08-31 23:01 <wpwrak> *grin*
2010-08-31 23:02 <kristianpaul> re-use, look look, more free pins more free pinds, i think i will love this ben board :D
2010-08-31 23:02 <wpwrak> it's a pretty cool idea. i could kick myself for not having had it myself :)
2010-08-31 23:02 <kristianpaul> lol
2010-08-31 23:02 <kristianpaul> thats why micro-sd exists...
2010-08-31 23:02 <kristianpaul> but some how is not so wide spread as we wish
2010-08-31 23:03 <kristianpaul> damm usb !
2010-08-31 23:03 <kristianpaul> ;)
2010-08-31 23:03 <wpwrak> yeah, in my mind i had it permanently assigned to storage. so it wasn't really "available" for anything.
2010-08-31 23:03 <kristianpaul> thats happens
2010-08-31 23:03 <kristianpaul> as me for usb :)
2010-08-31 23:05 <kristianpaul> well about ethernet with this SPI chip i dint sugguest use that port bacuase i relly need run debian from sd
2010-08-31 23:06 <kristianpaul> so i cant kill the port
2010-08-31 23:06 <kristianpaul> evertully i'll try the SPI  bit-bang slowness (1Mps is enought for me  )
2010-08-31 23:06 <kristianpaul> eventually*
2010-08-31 23:09 <wpwrak> the jz4760 might have up to three mmc controllers. so we could have plenty of slots
2010-08-31 23:10 <kristianpaul> but thats will no be considered posible until the other 1K ben run, no?
2010-08-31 23:11 <kristianpaul> our SoC now is jz4740 or do i'm confused,( again?...)
2010-08-31 23:12 <wpwrak> jz4720. jz4740 has the same core but different bond-out. (more signals)
2010-08-31 23:12 <wpwrak> jz4760 may be a possible future.
2010-08-31 23:14 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-08-31 23:35 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: one more project for the commit reporter: kicad-libs
2010-08-31 23:51 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: kicad-libs should be hooked up