2010-08-22 00:01 rafa: (kernel) i think 1-2 mminutes is a good time. no need to exaggerate :) 2010-08-22 00:06 wpwrak: 120 seconds are few for me.. ;)Â Â it is a good time to heat water to drink mate 2010-08-22 00:08 wpwrak: btw... I was playing hexen and heretic... wow!..Â Â these are great for nn.. still if I just played the shareware levels.. No idea where to download levels made by users yet.. But the sound.. man.. it is amazing to play.. 2010-08-22 00:08 (I am building games for the trip :D ) 2010-08-22 00:09 you'll keep the whole plane awake ;-) 2010-08-22 00:09 I already built around 10 great games.. I do not want to sleep now :) 2010-08-22 00:10 hexec would be great for nanowar.. you feel the metal at that game hehe 2010-08-22 00:10 hexen 2010-08-22 00:43 never played it. should be fun to discover then :) 2010-08-22 00:45 hexen is very similar to doom.. but there are more effects and the player is more like medieval ages 2010-08-22 00:46 effects: for example thunders or storms 2010-08-22 00:47 ah, nice. so it's outdoors ? 2010-08-22 00:47 in fact I guess that hexen, heretic and doom share a lot of code.. when I built those the building output were similar between them :) 2010-08-22 00:48 :-) 2010-08-22 00:49 they do 2010-08-22 00:49 share code 2010-08-22 00:49 I remember hexen 2010-08-22 00:49 mmmm 2010-08-22 00:49 nebajoth: do you want to play on nn? :) 2010-08-22 00:50 hmm 2010-08-22 00:50 I dunno 2010-08-22 00:50 means installing graphical environment :P 2010-08-22 00:51 nebajoth: no sure.. it uses sdl and sdl works on fb 2010-08-22 00:51 wpwrak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6I8hVaqmA0 2010-08-22 00:53 nebajoth: yes :D you do not need graphical environment 2010-08-22 00:54 it works on fb as well ;) 2010-08-22 01:03 hmmm.. fsck. 2010-08-22 01:03 what were the needed levels on a usb again? vcc is 5V and io was 3.3? 2010-08-22 01:05 roh: yup 2010-08-22 01:06 rafa: heh, very very doom 2010-08-22 01:11 fights with vusb 2010-08-22 01:11 roh: where ? 2010-08-22 01:16 nah.. i 'just' wanted to make a friend a small develboard 2010-08-22 01:16 so i soldered up http://metalab.at/wiki/Metaboard from crap on my desk 2010-08-22 01:17 everything seems to work, it just doesnt enumerate.. /me puzzled. now i really could use a _real_ scope with some usb debug feats 2010-08-22 01:18 roh: any ~100 MHz scope with deep memory will do. i debugged USB enumeration with mine. 2010-08-22 01:18 deep memory ;) 2010-08-22 01:18 500 kSa :) 2010-08-22 01:19 not that it's complain if a genie popped out of a bottle and offered me something with a few more MHz and more samples, though :) 2010-08-22 01:21 s/it's/I'd/ 2010-08-22 01:32 rafa: what is the launcher app you use in Jlime? 2010-08-22 01:43 wolfspraul: we do not use launcher 2010-08-22 01:44 wolfspraul: jlime use matchbox desktop and matchbox window manager.. Matchbox uses freedesktop.org spec 2010-08-22 01:46 So you can add desktop entries under /usr/applications/*.desktop 2010-08-22 01:47 wolfspraul: those would be launchers I guess. Well, you define *.desktop files like in gnome.. or others freedesktop thing and it is showed on desktop. 2010-08-22 02:00 ah OK 2010-08-22 02:03 wolfspraul: btw, one problem of ben-wpan for which I don't have a good idea for a solution yet is how to connect it to a ben. particularly if placing the board next to the display 2010-08-22 02:07 wolfspraul: the signals i can grab at the LCM aren't enough. i need at least three more: reset, chip select, and interrupt. there's one more signal used for sleep mode that may also be good to have. if i take the clock from the ben, saving the crystal, that would be one more signal. so, 3-5 signals to route from the main pcb to the display. 2010-08-22 02:08 wolfspraul: ah, one more: i also need MISO. the LCM only has MOSI and SCLK. so that's 4-6 signals. 2010-08-22 02:10 no problem if we integrate this we have an entirely new layout anyway :-) 2010-08-22 02:10 pity that all the lines of the lcm's fpc are connected. there are many GND and +V3.3 lines. probably half the number would do nicely 2010-08-22 02:10 is the avt2 I sent you any good? 2010-08-22 02:10 i haven't played with it yet 2010-08-22 02:11 so basically my plan on the small run side looks like this: 2010-08-22 02:12 small run of what ? 2010-08-22 02:12 I hope we can continue hacking projects with the existing Ben, AVT2 or SIE boards, until we have a bigger package to go for another NanoNote prototype run 2010-08-22 02:12 small run anything :- 2010-08-22 02:12 :-) 2010-08-22 02:13 so of course we could make another avt2, and bring out everything you need, bit a small run is quite expensive, both in case and because we can only do so many small runs per year 2010-08-22 02:13 gee, typos 2010-08-22 02:13 "but a small run is quite expensive, both in cash and ..." 2010-08-22 02:14 so I am waiting either for a usable 4760, or do the milkymist nanonote right away, but it's a bit too early for that... 2010-08-22 02:14 which means ... to find your wires I hope we can get it going on a Ben, or AVT2, or SIE 2010-08-22 02:14 MM NN would be fun. should make the headlines as the craziest project of the year ;-) 2010-08-22 02:14 what do you think? 2010-08-22 02:14 oh we will definitely do it :-) 2010-08-22 02:15 in fact we are working on it already, aren't we? :-) 2010-08-22 02:15 i can prototype on the ben, no problem. that's the least of my worries :) 2010-08-22 02:16 ok but you said you don't know how to hookup ben-wpan? 2010-08-22 02:16 what's harder is to test it in "real life" conditions. because i need to solve the cabling problem for that. well, at least to the point that they only need resoldering once a week or so :) 2010-08-22 02:16 hook it up in a "real life" way 2010-08-22 02:17 just somehow connecting it to the pcb is easy. putting it in the display such that it stays connected when opening/closing the device several times is difficult. 2010-08-22 02:19 what i also don't have is the fancy rf gear for testing spectrum leakage an all that. i think (*) i more or less check if something horrible happens at the first harmonic, but that's about all. (*) still need to get my usrp going. 2010-08-22 02:20 hmm 2010-08-22 02:20 integrating it into the top side is indeed tough, didn't know you want to do that now already 2010-08-22 02:21 rf properties are basically a function of circuit design, circuit implementation (including soldering), antenna design, and - you'll like that one - properties of the device this thing operates in. so there are many things you can only find out by measuring 2010-08-22 02:22 (integration) http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/first-pcb.jpg 2010-08-22 02:23 basically the y-size of the antenna is what we have. the ground below the antenna can go under the lcm without problems (well, i also hope without rf problems) 2010-08-22 02:24 let me take a picture of the actual circuit ... 2010-08-22 02:25 oh wooow! that's your own PCB antenna there? 2010-08-22 02:25 etched in home-made acid? 2010-08-22 02:25 yup :) btw, it has about +3 dB, according to TI's documentation ;-) 2010-08-22 02:25 you are getting scary 2010-08-22 02:26 if Al Qaida has any problems in recruitment, someone should point them to you... 2010-08-22 02:27 the new 'base' is in Buenos Aires. Asado Qaida. 2010-08-22 02:28 pish posh 2010-08-22 02:28 you should know better than to say the words "al qaida" in an irc channel 2010-08-22 02:28 ECHELON HIRE ME 2010-08-22 02:29 ok then let me rephrase "Werner's PCB antenna is cool" 2010-08-22 02:29 self-censored 2010-08-22 02:30 :D 2010-08-22 02:31 can't we do a 4740-based small run with usb host? 2010-08-22 02:33 that was avt2 2010-08-22 02:33 avt2 had a 4720 which is the same die as 4740 2010-08-22 02:33 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/board-100813.jpg 2010-08-22 02:34 hmmm 2010-08-22 02:34 I meant for cons00mers, I guess 2010-08-22 02:34 small run 2010-08-22 02:34 right 2010-08-22 02:34 gotcha 2010-08-22 02:34 I'm half asleep, watching my daughter :P 2010-08-22 02:35 a small run doesnt' have to be profitable 2010-08-22 02:35 left chip is the usb mcu. right chip is the transceiver. little stuff right of the transceiver is balun and filter. it should be possible to replace them all with a single chip about the size of two of these small critters (they're 0402) 2010-08-22 02:35 but a 'real' run does, and I don't want to increase prices of the NanoNote, I want to decrease prices 2010-08-22 02:35 so the 'small runs' will dance around for a while, until we find a package that we can successfully mass-produce 2010-08-22 02:36 everything left of the pads with the colorful little wires would come off then putting the board into the ben 2010-08-22 02:36 yes alright 2010-08-22 02:38 so what's next? 2010-08-22 02:38 one problem is the crystal. there's no room for it in the ben, if putting the board into the display. but i can probably slave the board off a clock from the cpu. the 12 MHz crystal is almost good enough for this. sufficient for experimental use. for a real product, it may have to be replaced with a slightly more accurate one. shouldn't be a big deal. 2010-08-22 02:39 next in my testing is to enable the receiver and see if the analog regulator comes up too. 2010-08-22 02:39 we could make a special PCB behind the LCM, then use the current FPC that goes through the hinge to route the wires to the main PCB. but we would then probably also need changes there, so I doubt it will help much. 2010-08-22 02:40 after that, the fun part starts: the RF side. my plan is to first implement a spectrum scan, do the same on the usrp, and compare the two. 2010-08-22 02:40 particularly when generating background noise form my wlan, they both should see the same pattern 2010-08-22 02:40 s/form/from/ 2010-08-22 02:41 the lcm's pcb has very large ground areas. i can just cut out these 2010-08-22 02:41 (well, some of them. don't need all that much space) 2010-08-22 02:42 the fpc would need a change on both sides, yes 2010-08-22 02:43 maybe i can cut the traces leading to the fpc connectors. haven't examined that yet. 2010-08-22 02:49 here's the pcb's backside. basically just ground planes. http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/board-100813-back.jpg 2010-08-22 02:52 the transceiver's reset behaviour is interesting. i was trying to read the chip's IDs. the data sheet says no explicit reset is needed. plus, spi is self-synchronizing (with nSS) and reading the ids is about the simplest thing one can do anyway. so i expected this to work. 2010-08-22 02:53 instead, i just got random garbage. pretty much all of friday went into trying to find the mysterious bug in my spi implementation. the general shape of the signals was okay. all the bits made sense. signal timing as well, signal shape too. and so on. 2010-08-22 02:54 in the end, it turned out that i do have to reset the chip before it would return anything sensible. argl. 2010-08-22 02:56 oh well 2010-08-22 02:58 of course this means that having a line for the reset signal is mandatory 2010-08-22 02:59 the one signal that's kind of optional controls transmit timing and sleep mode. we probably don't care about the former, but the latter is interesting: the chip goes from 1.5 mA to 20 nA in sleep mode. 2010-08-22 03:02 you think the aread around the lcm (on the top side) is the right place to attempt RF, right? 2010-08-22 03:03 there are orcad files of the behind-lcm pcb flying around somewhere, as a first step I could try to turn this into proper kicad files. 2010-08-22 03:04 one problem with converting GND lines in the FPC is that they are probably there for a reason, to reduce noise or whatever 2010-08-22 03:05 i think the lcm area is promising, yes. it would be far from parts with complex radiation patterns, next to a big chunk of ground, and it's likely to be uncovered by hands and such 2010-08-22 03:06 some of the ground lines may be there for noise. but most seem to be there just for current. i don't think we need quite so many. even one of each (gnd and +V3.3) is probably enough. two of each should be plenty. 2010-08-22 03:07 then there are two more ground lines that may be there for noise. and i'm adding another even noisier line, the 16 MHz clock. i think the lcm clock is much slower than this. maybe 8-10 MHz 2010-08-22 03:07 actually, i could measure it ... let's see ... 2010-08-22 03:17 wolfspraul: BTW, beta3 is almost there ;) 2010-08-22 03:19 ah no, it's 21 MHz 2010-08-22 03:19 great! 2010-08-22 03:20 so the clock i may add will be a little less offensive than the one that's already there ;-) 2010-08-22 03:23 in any case, i know that adam likes this kind of signals. we already had great fun with that sort of thing with the gta03 camera clock :) 2010-08-22 03:26 wolfspraul: how is the EE design of the bens done ? is it split between carlos and adam ? 2010-08-22 03:27 basically yes, although keep in mind be bought the design so we started with a lot of 'known good' data 2010-08-22 03:28 s/be/we/ 2010-08-22 03:28 but then avt2, sie - yes, Carlos & Adam 2010-08-22 03:29 okay, good. does carlos have resources to analyze RF characteristics ? such as the sort you need for FCC compliance 2010-08-22 03:29 is it mipsel or mipsn32? 2010-08-22 03:30 nebajoth: openwrt toolchain calls it mipsel-* 2010-08-22 03:30 yeah 2010-08-22 03:30 but the kernel config for 2.6.36 seems to think its mipsn32 2010-08-22 03:31 where is a -march=xburst when you need it to end all doubts ;) 2010-08-22 03:31 wpwrak: I doubt it. Although it's a university someone else might have it. 2010-08-22 03:32 wolfspraul: that's what i was hoping for :) okay, something to find out 2010-08-22 03:34 rafa: we should find out if there are any people at universities in buenos aires who could be interested in such things as well 2010-08-22 04:01 nice. i get non-constant rssi values. this is promising :) 2010-08-22 04:17 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/rssi.png 2010-08-22 04:18 what does it mean 2010-08-22 04:18 x is the frequency, in MHz. y are the seconds since the start, z is the received energy in dBm. at t=~6s i started a lot of traffic on my wlan, at channel 10 (2457 MHz) 2010-08-22 04:19 in other words, i get something out of the ether 2010-08-22 04:25 :D 2010-08-22 04:27 updated the image 2010-08-22 04:27 nice 2010-08-22 04:27 labels 2010-08-22 04:28 I kind of want this kind of display live-updated on my wall 2010-08-22 04:28 or wristwatch 2010-08-22 04:29 shouldn't be too hard. Gtk is your friend :) 2010-08-22 05:51 [commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atspi-rssi/: spectrum scan utility http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/723cfad 2010-08-22 05:51 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atspi-reset: utility to reset transceiver or entire board. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/419b596 2010-08-22 05:51 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added Makefile to build/install/etc. all the ATSPI utilities. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e514c0f 2010-08-22 05:51 [commit] Werner Almesberger: Additions to bookshelf: AT86RF230 programmer's guide and 2.4 GHz regulations. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d8c71a3 2010-08-22 05:52 wolfspraul: you'll like the last one :) 2010-08-22 05:54 regulations! my everyday bedtime reading 2010-08-22 05:54 fantastic Werner, thanks a lot! 2010-08-22 05:54 but i can't praise ti's wonderful collection of documentation often enough. they really have everything you need. 2010-08-22 05:55 wolfspraul: i thought it was your bathroom reading, with dual use ;-) 2010-08-22 05:55 can't get enough regulatory texts actually 2010-08-22 05:55 the grammar, style, vocabulary - an ecstatic pleasure 2010-08-22 05:56 hehe :) well, this one is an overview, so it's pretty decently written. the originals are probably a different story. 2010-08-22 06:01 wpwrak: I need your help deciphering the extensions of some KiCad files, and what should be committed into the repository, what is intermediate/temporary 2010-08-22 06:02 it's about the JTAG/serial reflashing cable for Milkymist One, a very simple little PCB 2010-08-22 06:02 some files are already committed, but neither me nor Yanjun Luo are really sure whether it's the right set 2010-08-22 06:02 the entire zipped folder from Yanjun Luo is here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/wolfgang/tmp/ 2010-08-22 06:03 that's a total of 22 files 2010-08-22 06:03 4 * .lib 2010-08-22 06:03 1 * .pro 2010-08-22 06:03 wrong: 2 * .pro 2010-08-22 06:03 4 * .bak 2010-08-22 06:04 usb_jtag.{pro,sch,brd } 2010-08-22 06:04 1 * .net 2010-08-22 06:04 then of the others ... 2010-08-22 06:04 2 * .000 2010-08-22 06:04 2 * .brd 2010-08-22 06:04 1 * .bck 2010-08-22 06:05 1 * .mdc 2010-08-22 06:05 1 * .mod 2010-08-22 06:05 puh, that's 19 now I think :-) 2010-08-22 06:05 {crystal_smd,ft2232h,mic5207-3}.lib, *.mod, not sure about the .mdc 2010-08-22 06:05 18 2010-08-22 06:06 1 * .lst 2010-08-22 06:06 1 * .ps 2010-08-22 06:06 1 * .sch 2010-08-22 06:06 the .ps is definitely a plotted schematics, that I know 2010-08-22 06:06 1 * .dcm 2010-08-22 06:06 .lst is the BOM. that can be generated. .net is the netlist. can be generated as well. 2010-08-22 06:06 ok that's it 2010-08-22 06:07 the .bak are probably backup copies only 2010-08-22 06:07 .dcm is documentation. but since it's a cache anyway, you don't care aboutit 2010-08-22 06:07 .lst .net .ps are generated files 2010-08-22 06:07 ok [.dcm] 2010-08-22 06:07 so .dcm never has original content? 2010-08-22 06:08 it can, but probably not in this case 2010-08-22 06:08 the nonamebrd.pro is probably just junk from the first steps 2010-08-22 06:08 i'm actually surprised it exists at all 2010-08-22 06:08 yup 2010-08-22 06:08 ok so let's scratch out the ones that are junk for sure: 2010-08-22 06:08 kicad leaves a lot of droppings :) 2010-08-22 06:09 nonamebrd.pro, 4 * .bak, 1 * .lst, 1 * .net, 1 * .ps 2010-08-22 06:09 right? that's 8 2010-08-22 06:09 the .dcm is definitely useless. has no content. 2010-08-22 06:09 leaves 14 2010-08-22 06:09 ok, 13 2010-08-22 06:10 for the netlist, make sure you have a copy. just in case. 2010-08-22 06:10 he well 2010-08-22 06:10 that's just what I am trying to find out 2010-08-22 06:10 also for the .dcm - if it's empty here that doesn't mean it won't contain original content alter 2010-08-22 06:10 later 2010-08-22 06:10 so it's important whether it's committed to git or in the ignore list :-) 2010-08-22 06:10 naw, it's a cache auto-generated by kicad 2010-08-22 06:10 ok 2010-08-22 06:11 so we are down to 13 2010-08-22 06:11 the netlist should have no original content, but i'd do a test to verify that 2010-08-22 06:12 you killed $savepcb.* and *.000 ? 2010-08-22 06:12 maybe this is documented in the kicad wiki/documentation somewhere? 2010-08-22 06:12 I killed? 2010-08-22 06:12 no 2010-08-22 06:12 then do it :) 3 less 2010-08-22 06:13 ok, let me move all probably-non-original files into a subfolder 2010-08-22 06:13 the netlist is generated by eeschema and cvpcb updates the netlist when you assign footprints to components. in this case, it should save them also in a .cmp file, though. 2010-08-22 06:14 footprints can also be directly in the schematics, so you don't need to run cvpcb 2010-08-22 06:15 we are down to 10 2010-08-22 06:15 there are two files with name -cache 2010-08-22 06:15 reloading ... 2010-08-22 06:15 kill 'em 2010-08-22 06:15 usb_jtag-cache.lib, usb_jtag-cache.bck 2010-08-22 06:15 wow, so some .lib have original content, some not? 2010-08-22 06:15 nice, eh ? ;-) 2010-08-22 06:15 that's not nice even if you hate extensions 2010-08-22 06:16 down to 8 2010-08-22 06:17 what kicad does is that it copies the libraries it uses into a cache. if you use only stable "standard" libs and supply the non-standard libs with the reset of the project, the cache is redundant. 2010-08-22 06:17 now you have all you should need. lemme check the .pro ... 2010-08-22 06:17 so the .lib files need to be committed 2010-08-22 06:18 there's also jtag-uart.mdc and jtag-uart.mod 2010-08-22 06:18 both are original? 2010-08-22 06:19 the .pro should be edited. has a long absolute path name. i also don't see the .lib files mentioned in there 2010-08-22 06:19 best to clean out all the junk (LibName30=valves, LibName22=digital-audio, etc.) 2010-08-22 06:19 ok, will fix the absolute path 2010-08-22 06:20 then add the *.lib files. asÂ Â ./crystal_smdÂ Â etc. 2010-08-22 06:21 well there is a crystal_smd.lib, and if I grep -i crystal_smd, I do find some references to that name here and there 2010-08-22 06:21 in usb_jtag.brd and usb_jtag.sch 2010-08-22 06:21 yes. it should also be in the profile. not sure if eeschema can even display it if it's not there. 2010-08-22 06:22 maybe it just suffixes a '.lib' and tries to open the file :-) 2010-08-22 06:22 I don't know 2010-08-22 06:22 so you think what's remaining there now are the files with original content? 2010-08-22 06:22 they should go into revision control, the rest can be ignored 2010-08-22 06:22 and i'm not sure why it's not there in the first place. maybe there's yet another strange workflow that lets you pick libs up without adding them to the list :) 2010-08-22 06:22 yes 2010-08-22 06:22 what is in jtag_uart.mdc and jtag_uart.mod 2010-08-22 06:23 mdc is quite short, mod rather long 2010-08-22 06:23 .mod is a footprint, .mdc is documentation 2010-08-22 06:23 Hello all 2010-08-22 06:23 I have a linux question... 2010-08-22 06:23 wolfspraul: ah, for once there is actually something in the documentation ;-) 2010-08-22 06:24 ok but unlike .dcm, the .mdc documentation is original? 2010-08-22 06:24 If I wanted to do an ubifs image, so it had the /dev/... contents, how could I do that on a linux without being root? 2010-08-22 06:24 wolfspraul: yup 2010-08-22 06:24 ok 2010-08-22 06:25 so at least in terms of original vs. intermediate/generated, the split is rather clean 2010-08-22 06:25 we have all generated files in non-original, and the ones with original data remain, 8 out of 22 here 2010-08-22 06:25 true? 2010-08-22 06:25 wolfspraul: yup. it's manageable :) 2010-08-22 06:25 wpwrak: thanks a lot! very helpful 2010-08-22 06:25 It's a similar problem with making an initramfs image. The only tool I know is one comming with the linux kernel, that allows putting device ndoes into a cpio archive according to a description, not only through the nodes being in the filesystem. 2010-08-22 06:25 I will try to write this up into an email to the list, good that we have irclogs... 2010-08-22 06:27 wolfspraul: depending on the kicad version, things change a little. i.e., it sometimes it complains if certain files are missing (but works anyway) 2010-08-22 06:27 do you talk about the 3d scans? 2010-08-22 06:28 viric: no, about kicad. that's EDA (schematics, layout, etc.) 2010-08-22 06:28 ah ok 2010-08-22 06:28 wpwrak: ok, but I would like to commit only original data 2010-08-22 06:28 then it's a bug in KiCad :-) 2010-08-22 06:29 ok. schematics, layout, for what? the nanonote? 2010-08-22 06:29 they must have heard about the idea of separating original data from intermediates/generated data 2010-08-22 06:29 one more scan shuold end today. quite a bastard been running for something like 3 or 4 days now. not sure why it takes *that* long. 2010-08-22 06:29 viric: ultimately, that one too :) for now it's assorted smaller projects 2010-08-22 06:29 ah ok 2010-08-22 06:30 although it seems quite brave to use the same extension for both original and cached data, first time ever I see something like this 2010-08-22 06:30 viric: e.g., a JTAG dongle for Xue, or ben-wpan 2010-08-22 06:30 On Linux I only used Eagle... it looks quite similar 2010-08-22 06:30 Ah, very good. 2010-08-22 06:30 so maybe they don't care so much about that distinction... 2010-08-22 06:31 is your chosing of 'kicad' the result of exploring what kind of free available software there is for that? 2010-08-22 06:31 hmm. i should make a c8051f326 programmer based on a c8051f326. then i don't need to abuse a freerunner for bootstrapping all my little usb toys :) 2010-08-22 06:32 wolfspraul: the whole library system is ugly. there's talk about improving it, but the powers that be are slowing things down :( 2010-08-22 06:32 viric: yup 2010-08-22 06:34 I'll try this kicad then :) 2010-08-22 06:34 viric: there are basically two: gEDA and kiCad. i used gEDA once but it was quite a pain. e.g., you had to put meta-data into invisible fields in the schematics and define your schematics symbols in an m4-based script. not sure if things are still like that. 2010-08-22 06:34 then i stumbled upon kicad. never looked back :) 2010-08-22 06:35 great 2010-08-22 06:35 the main problem with kicad is that it doesn't have an autorouter. you can use an external non-Free but gratis push router, though. 2010-08-22 06:35 ahh. 2010-08-22 06:35 there may be people working on that though 2010-08-22 06:35 well, it does have an autorouter and even an autoplacer, but they're both useless. 2010-08-22 06:35 don't have the geda people one? 2010-08-22 06:35 :) ok 2010-08-22 06:36 they have a fairly nice autorouter. not sure if they have a push router these days. 2010-08-22 06:36 a 'push router'? 2010-08-22 06:36 push router = you route manually but the program moves conflicting traces out of the way 2010-08-22 06:37 viric: same here, definitely really trying hard to work with KiCad now. 2010-08-22 06:37 I just follow Werner's lead on choosing that tool. 2010-08-22 06:37 wolfspraul: same for Eagle you mean? 2010-08-22 06:37 Eagle is not free softare. 2010-08-22 06:37 software 2010-08-22 06:37 I know I know 2010-08-22 06:37 so it's the best of both worlds - you don't need to waste time on those small details and you're still in control of how things are routed. (autorouters are essentially impossible for anything but trivial layouts) 2010-08-22 06:38 viric: sorry then I don't understand you. What is your question about Eagle? 2010-08-22 06:38 I had no question. :) 2010-08-22 06:42 wolfspraul: well, my question was about your statement of "same here". I lost what could you be answering, with "same here". And I asked if that "same here" meant "same we used Eagle here" 2010-08-22 06:44 wolfspraul: btw, just how much do you dislike TI ? they have an 802.15.4 chip that's similar to atmel's but has more buffer space. atmel's has only space for one frame, so you have to be very quick to download a received frame or to disable the receiver. otherwise, new packets can overwrite old ones. not sure if this will be a problem, but it might. 2010-08-22 06:44 wolfspraul: so it may make sense to also evaluate TI's chip. 2010-08-22 06:49 is 802.15.4 (wpan?) something like bluetooth? 2010-08-22 06:50 sort of, yes. it's for example the basis of ZigBee. 2010-08-22 06:50 apparently, one couldn't write a Free ZigBee stack, though. 2010-08-22 06:50 ah 2010-08-22 06:50 but there are other nice protocols one can layer on top :) 2010-08-22 06:51 like ip? 2010-08-22 06:51 e.g., 6LoWPAN, IPv6 2010-08-22 06:51 ok 2010-08-22 06:51 are you planning an 'additional small board' to give network to the nanonote? 2010-08-22 06:52 OTH, I thought that through the serial port it could be easy to handle a gprs modem through that, right? 2010-08-22 06:52 no IPv4, though. i think you'd get a public stoning if you were to suggest to start an IPv4 project at IETF these days ;-) 2010-08-22 06:52 hehe ok 2010-08-22 06:52 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/ 2010-08-22 06:53 that's the transceiver (a bit too large to fit into the ben but that can probably be fixed) plus an USB interface. the latter for development. 2010-08-22 06:53 wow, it looks great. 2010-08-22 06:54 is that 'low cost'? 2010-08-22 06:55 quite, yes. about USD 2-3 for the whole thing we'd need for the ben. maybe twice that for USB. 2010-08-22 06:55 wow 2010-08-22 06:55 sounds very nice 2010-08-22 06:55 and a wpan transceiver for a PC costs around that? 2010-08-22 06:56 you can find cheaper RF chips, but then you're either in bands with hostile regulations or they implement some "vendor standard", incompatible with everything else 2010-08-22 06:56 I think anyone who bought a nanonote can afford this wpan thing 2010-08-22 06:56 dunno what commercially available WPAN/ZigBee dongles cost 2010-08-22 06:57 it's not an easy upgrade. it will have to be engineered into a new ben. 2010-08-22 06:58 :( 2010-08-22 06:58 adding it to an existing ben may be unreliable and you'd have to cut the PCB in the display and route some new wires to the LCM. not very friendly. 2010-08-22 06:58 it's a pity the Ben did not come with an 'extension port', with exposed pins 2010-08-22 06:58 installing an IDBG is a kid's play in comparison :) 2010-08-22 06:58 ok, understood :) 2010-08-22 06:59 i'm not sure an extension port would help. chances are it's the wrong shape, at the wong place (rf likes to be undisturbed), and maybe even with the wrong signals. 2010-08-22 06:59 all rf could be outside the ben 2010-08-22 06:59 and something connected to that ext port. 2010-08-22 06:59 ugly 2010-08-22 06:59 :) 2010-08-22 07:00 and the sooner or later, you'll break it off :) 2010-08-22 07:00 right 2010-08-22 07:01 do you have the schemas in kicad for that? 2010-08-22 07:01 now, let's see if my hands are steady enough to solder after yesterday's drinking ... 2010-08-22 07:02 of course. http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/ 2010-08-22 07:02 you must be a good soldering, seeing that small (smd?) chips soldered 2010-08-22 07:03 it's not so difficult. i find smd easier than through-hole. 2010-08-22 07:03 sure 2010-08-22 07:04 the main difficulty on this board is that there isn't a lot of space between components. spacing is still wide for industrial production, but with a soldering iron, it's about as dense as possible. 2010-08-22 07:04 wolfspraul: is it you doing those long-time 3D scans? 2010-08-22 07:04 wpwrak: clear 2010-08-22 07:05 well, "industrial production" ... a toaster oven is sufficient :) but i like the results of manual soldering better. 2010-08-22 07:05 I never used other than manual soldering 2010-08-22 07:06 for proper reflow soldering (with an oven), i would need to print stencils for the solder paste too. haven't gotten into that yet. 2010-08-22 07:07 i'm doing the 3D scans. well, my little cnc mill that ever sleeps is :) 2010-08-22 07:07 ah ok! 2010-08-22 07:07 I should be in charge of doing 3D scans with laser triangulation 2010-08-22 07:07 But we are very busy at the office these days, and I think I will not get into scanning until the late september 2010-08-22 07:07 (last week of september) 2010-08-22 07:10 wpwrak: I don't think I'll get results as accurate as you (in 0,1x0,1Âµm scans), but I hope we can get something close to that. 2010-08-22 07:10 at least I should be able to scan faster (30s per scan at that resolution) 2010-08-22 07:11 my scans are 100 um x 100 um, not 0.1 um. that would be nice, though :) 2010-08-22 07:11 (30s) i envy that speed :) 2010-08-22 07:12 sorry :) 2010-08-22 07:12 I meant 0,1x0,1mm :) 2010-08-22 07:12 with those endless scan jobs, i'm extremely nervous about brown-outs. they happen here from time to time. and of course, they kill the entire scan. the crappy scan software doesn't to intermediate saves :-( 2010-08-22 07:12 oh. 2010-08-22 07:13 maybe you can leave your CNC relax... 2010-08-22 07:13 if you can wait for my results 2010-08-22 07:14 what accuracy do you expect to get ? 2010-08-22 07:16 In general we only do algorithms, and we lack good scanning hardware :) Our customers get the expensive hardware and use our algorithms 2010-08-22 07:16 I hope I will be in the 0,1x0,1x0,1Âµm range. 2010-08-22 07:16 (customers) ah. pity. it's always nice to have good toys :) 2010-08-22 07:17 0.1 um or 0.1 mm ? 2010-08-22 07:17 grrrr 2010-08-22 07:17 100Âµm^3 2010-08-22 07:17 :) 2010-08-22 07:17 ;-) 2010-08-22 07:17 we could scan at more accuracy 2010-08-22 07:17 i get 100 um on X/Y and 25 um on Z. 2010-08-22 07:18 but I think we will be around that error for the time of integrating multiple views. 2010-08-22 07:18 i guess the better the scans, the better the merged views, no ? 2010-08-22 07:19