2010-08-16 00:48 <unclouded> lunavorax: are you set on using C to program with?  There are scripting languages such as Python, Ruby and Lua that are easier to actually program on the NanoNote itself
2010-08-16 05:03 <bartbes> xiangfu: so, how's your connection? :P
2010-08-16 05:04 <xiangfu> bartbes: it's my awesome windows manager problem. :(.
2010-08-16 05:05 <xiangfu> bartbes: this one: http://awesome.naquadah.org/
2010-08-16 05:06 <wolfspraul> they call it awesome so even if people complain it still sounds good
2010-08-16 05:06 <wolfspraul> "my awesome window manager is crashing"
2010-08-16 05:07 <bartbes> yeah, I think I saw it before
2010-08-16 05:07 <bartbes> btw, I can now inform you I found a fix for the lua bug I had
2010-08-16 05:08 <bartbes> it was all related to not being able to compile c++ with c99
2010-08-16 05:08 <bartbes> so I simply faked that part ;)
2010-08-16 05:08 <wolfspraul> he, OK
2010-08-16 05:08 <bartbes> (to disable the check)
2010-08-16 05:08 <bartbes> (and who knows, maybe the compiler actually picks up on that)
2010-08-16 05:09 <bartbes> well, this means I have no excuse but continue work on the new graphics backend
2010-08-16 05:09 <bartbes> that sentence isn't correct, but you know what I mean (right?)
2010-08-16 05:09 <bartbes> xiangfu: I'm checking out this screenshot http://awesome.naquadah.org/images/6mon.medium.png
2010-08-16 05:10 <bartbes> and now I'm wondering why the guy has 9 (!) irssi windows
2010-08-16 05:11 <bartbes> actually I forgot one
2010-08-16 05:11 <bartbes> there are 10
2010-08-16 05:11 <zedstar> all those monitors and no porn that is impressive
2010-08-16 05:11 <bartbes> "Very stable [...]"
2010-08-16 05:12 <bartbes> zedstar: check out the previous photo on the center-left screen in the bottom-right corner
2010-08-16 05:14 <zedstar> bartbes which photo?
2010-08-16 05:14 <bartbes> the one I linked
2010-08-16 05:14 <bartbes> it has the previous photo at the place I just described
2010-08-16 05:20 <tuxbrain2> bartbes: the guy on the photo I think has seen too many times "Operation Swordfish" :P
2010-08-16 05:20 <bartbes> I want a setup like that ;)
2010-08-16 05:20 <bartbes> I need it too
2010-08-16 05:20 <bartbes> my 4 virtual desktops are too little
2010-08-16 05:20 <bartbes> and need too much switching
2010-08-16 05:21 <tuxbrain2> thinks bartbes also has seen this movie to many times...
2010-08-16 05:21 <bartbes> ugh, I now remember why I hate doxygen
2010-08-16 05:21 <bartbes> I have never seen it actually
2010-08-16 05:21 <bartbes> I had never even heard of it before
2010-08-16 05:22 <tuxbrain2> hehehe then the symptoms are caused for too many hours in front of your computer :P
2010-08-16 05:23 <bartbes> probably
2010-08-16 05:24 <bartbes> no but seriously, especially when developing for the ben I have lots and lots of windows open
2010-08-16 05:24 <tuxbrain2> symptoms:->
2010-08-16 05:24 <tuxbrain2> Imperative need of more monitors than a NASA mision,
2010-08-16 05:24 <tuxbrain2> don't see "Operation Swordfish" movie , even knowing an impresive Hally Berry appears in there ...
2010-08-16 05:25 <tuxbrain2> btw, just envy of such configuration
2010-08-16 05:29 <bartbes> do any of you guys know SDL_gfx?
2010-08-16 05:56 <qi-bot> [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: Add build variants support to InstallDev http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ef19f3c
2010-08-16 05:56 <qi-bot> [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: [package] ncurses: Add libncursesw package http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/4866c73
2010-08-16 05:57 <bartbes> o look at that
2010-08-16 05:57 <bartbes> cheers
2010-08-16 05:57 <bartbes> thx larsc
2010-08-16 05:57 <tuxbrain2> that means we have ncurses on OpenWrt??
2010-08-16 05:58 <bartbes> ncurses we always had
2010-08-16 05:58 <bartbes> ncursesw is new
2010-08-16 05:58 <tuxbrain2> what is ncoursesw?
2010-08-16 05:58 <bartbes> the unicode version
2010-08-16 05:58 <tuxbrain2> ok :)
2010-08-16 06:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update copyright to 3.9.1 format http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/c08a8d0
2010-08-16 06:03 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the changelog time stamp http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/0aebda3
2010-08-16 06:04 <bartbes> then I shall soon mark wordgrinder unbroken
2010-08-16 06:04 <bartbes> whenever I have the time to build it
2010-08-16 06:12 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove the comments http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/a851a37
2010-08-16 06:53 <mstevens> I should reflash my nanonote and see if there's new hotness
2010-08-16 07:20 <bartbes_> vps went down :'(
2010-08-16 10:05 <pwp> Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that quemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?
2010-08-16 10:07 <pwp> qemu, rather*
2010-08-16 10:08 <pwp> Is anyone on here?
2010-08-16 10:09 <pwp> Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that qemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?
2010-08-16 10:10 <xiangfu> pwp: Hi. I am not sure about qemu-mips.
2010-08-16 10:10 <xiangfu> pwp: what software you want port ?? :)
2010-08-16 10:11 <pwp> Um... not sure, just some Free Software games.
2010-08-16 10:11 <pwp> Not sure of anything specific.
2010-08-16 10:11 <bartbes> I tried qemu-mipsel a few times
2010-08-16 10:11 <bartbes> but in the end it always missed a file
2010-08-16 10:11 <xiangfu> pwp: ok.
2010-08-16 10:11 <bartbes> the bios the last time I tried
2010-08-16 10:12 <xiangfu> bartbes: I think we should create a wiki page about qemu-*
2010-08-16 10:12 <pwp> What do you bartbes? It didn't read a file on the image that was there?
2010-08-16 10:13 <bartbes> no it missed some bios image
2010-08-16 10:15 <pwp> Interesting... was it the qemu bios or the Ben Nanonote? (Sorry, the only emulator I am really familiar with is bochs.)
2010-08-16 10:15 <pwp> I used it for it debugging features
2010-08-16 10:16 <bartbes> qemu couldn't find a bios
2010-08-16 10:17 <mth> pwp: I started on adding support for the Dingoo A320/A330 to qemu here: http://github.com/mthuurne/qemu-dingoo
2010-08-16 10:17 <mth> those devices are similar to the NanoNote in hardware
2010-08-16 10:18 <mth> so if you'd like to extend qemu to emulate the NanoNote this would be a good starting point
2010-08-16 10:18 <mth> but it's not ready to use in its current state
2010-08-16 10:23 <pwp> Sorry, I was afk. brb
2010-08-16 10:29 <mth> actually, maybe it is ready to use, but I don't have a full NAND image yet to test with
2010-08-16 10:29 <mth> it needs a NAND image including the oob areas
2010-08-16 10:31 <mth> there is a tool to generate the NAND image here: http://code.google.com/p/jz-hacking/wiki/qemujz
2010-08-16 10:31 <mth> I don't know if it uses the same oob format as the NanoNote does
2010-08-16 10:36 <bartbes> btw, is libfreetype available for the nn?
2010-08-16 10:37 <bartbes> yes!
2010-08-16 10:37 <bartbes> cool
2010-08-16 10:37 <pwp> I am not sure, I just found out about the NanoNote yesterday evening and I need something to do until school starts.
2010-08-16 10:39 <bartbes> aww.. I can't use my font module yet..
2010-08-16 10:42 <mth> you could try building qemu and making an image file for the NanoNote and see how far it boots
2010-08-16 10:43 <mth> yajin made the Pavo board (JZ development board from Ingenic) emulation and that part works
2010-08-16 10:44 <bartbes> note that qemu and qemu-mipsel are very different
2010-08-16 10:44 <mth> in what way?
2010-08-16 10:44 <mth> I added the SD emulation which it not fully working yet, but SD is not required to use the NanoNote
2010-08-16 10:45 <bartbes> qemu-mipsel doesn't boot a system
2010-08-16 10:45 <bartbes> but rather emulates a single program
2010-08-16 10:45 <bartbes> in a wine-like fashion
2010-08-16 10:45 <mth> no, I think we're talking about something different then
2010-08-16 10:47 <bartbes> I am absolutely sure qemu-mipsel does that
2010-08-16 10:47 <bartbes> "The qemu-user emulator can run binaries for other architectures but with the same operating system as the current one.
2010-08-16 10:47 <bartbes> "
2010-08-16 10:47 <mth> yes, but this is not qemu-user
2010-08-16 10:47 <bartbes> no, but that *is* qemu-mipsel
2010-08-16 10:47 <mth> the executable is qemu-system-mipsel
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes> right, but that is different
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes> this conversation started with qemu-mips
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes> not qemu-system-mips
2010-08-16 10:48 <mth> what you're talking about is what Uli worked on to run Dingoo executables on x86 Linux
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes>  < pwp> Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes>              porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes>              currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be
2010-08-16 10:48 <bartbes>              quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard
2010-08-16 10:49 <bartbes> <pwp> [...] that qemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?
2010-08-16 10:49 <bartbes> oops
2010-08-16 10:49 <mth> ah ok, then I'm talking about something different
2010-08-16 10:49 <bartbes> sorry for that paste
2010-08-16 10:49 <bartbes> I thought it'd be one line
2010-08-16 10:49 <bartbes> but please do continue discussing qemu-system-mipsel
2010-08-16 10:50 <bartbes> that'd be waay cooler
2010-08-16 11:31 <mth> bartbes: I don't have the time right now to play with qemu, but I was hoping someone else does
2010-08-16 11:32 <bartbes> I have a bunch of other stuff to do
2010-08-16 11:32 <bartbes> so I can't do it either
2010-08-16 11:32 <bartbes> and qemu seems to be particularly time-consuming
2010-08-16 11:32 <mth> maybe pwp if he returns?
2010-08-16 11:32 <mth> actually qemu was a lot easier to understand than I had thought
2010-08-16 11:33 <bartbes> --> Dinner
2010-08-16 11:33 <bartbes> really?
2010-08-16 11:33 <bartbes> wow
2010-08-16 11:33 <mth> I do have some experience with emulators though; I've been working on openMSX for years
2010-08-16 11:33 <mth> but I expected qemu to be much more complex because it emulates so many systems
2010-08-16 11:33 <mth> but they kept it simple despite that
2010-08-16 12:57 <qi-bot> [commit] Juan64Bits: General issues corrected http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/9202afd
2010-08-16 12:58 <bartbes> oh
2010-08-16 12:58 <bartbes> almost forgot something
2010-08-16 13:01 <bartbes> ehm
2010-08-16 13:01 <bartbes> how do I update packages/?
2010-08-16 13:02 <bartbes> git pull did something ;)
2010-08-16 13:05 <larsc> scripts/feeds update
2010-08-16 13:06 <bartbes> no didn't work
2010-08-16 13:06 <bartbes> git pull did update it though
2010-08-16 14:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: attiny.lib added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/263badf
2010-08-16 14:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: MLF20m1 footprint added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/43db224
2010-08-16 14:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:xue http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/91cfffd
2010-08-16 17:33 <qi-bot> [commit] Juan64Bits: Series resistors (DDR) added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/1602624
2010-08-16 17:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Juan64Bits: Library path fixed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/6c2e360
2010-08-16 20:07 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: terminal resistors placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ba734f7
2010-08-16 20:37 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: terminal resistors placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/f1c6506
2010-08-16 21:56 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: ddr termination placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/2df63e4
2010-08-16 22:00 <qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: [guile] add development files http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7e25991
2010-08-16 22:08 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: do you have the rfm12b modules?
2010-08-16 22:08 <kristianpaul> i just found this "Ccheap"  interesting protocol https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/PSK31
2010-08-16 22:10 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: PSU sheet added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a1ba8c9
2010-08-16 22:10 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yup, i have some
2010-08-16 22:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: not very useful, though, imho
2010-08-16 22:11 <kristianpaul> yes i know
2010-08-16 22:11 <kristianpaul> but i got 10
2010-08-16 22:11 <kristianpaul> i need put something to some day...
2010-08-16 22:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i'm sure they make nice paperweights :)
2010-08-16 22:11 <kristianpaul> :/
2010-08-16 22:12 <kristianpaul> i have the avr16 chips i'll try some basic stuff
2010-08-16 22:12 <kristianpaul> if i got chatting i will be happy :)
2010-08-16 22:12 <wpwrak> i'm trying to do the same with ieee 802.15.4
2010-08-16 22:13 <kristianpaul> oh
2010-08-16 22:13 <kristianpaul> but thats for more than simple chatting i think
2010-08-16 22:13 <wpwrak> project ben-wpan. already designed a prototype circuit. now, once the darn flu goes away, i can actually build it
2010-08-16 22:13 <kristianpaul> audio for examples
2010-08-16 22:13 <kristianpaul> great !
2010-08-16 22:13 <wpwrak> naw, it just sends packets :)
2010-08-16 22:14 <wpwrak> you put whatever you want inside
2010-08-16 22:14 <wpwrak> even IPv6 is a possibility
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> i just buyed this Rf stuff for fun also was cheap (initially)
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> yeah
2010-08-16 22:14 <wpwrak> (6LoWPAN)
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> thats powerfull !
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> thats why i just want chat/ircing with this things
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> no more
2010-08-16 22:14 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> irc (not tcp/ip way)
2010-08-16 22:15 <wpwrak> the problem with 433 MHz is that regluations are pretty mean on it. e.g., you can't output a decent amount of power for continuous transmission
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-08-16 22:15 <wpwrak> irc would already be too continuous
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> what they limit=
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> ?
2010-08-16 22:15 <wpwrak> to be compliant, e.g., with FCC, you can only send a few messages within an hour
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> power ?
2010-08-16 22:15 <kristianpaul> what??
2010-08-16 22:16 <kristianpaul> ohh i dint knew that part
2010-08-16 22:16 <kristianpaul> last*
2010-08-16 22:16 <wpwrak> you can choose :) eiher good power but very very low duty cycle. or unusably low power but no duty cycle restriction
2010-08-16 22:16 <wpwrak> ti have some compliance document ... lemme see if i can find it again ...
2010-08-16 22:16 <kristianpaul> how many bits per hour?
2010-08-16 22:16 <kristianpaul> plesae
2010-08-16 22:17 <kristianpaul> i tought limitation was just power
2010-08-16 22:18 <wpwrak> on 433 mhz it's both. or rather either or. but the unrestricted power is basically below the noise floor.
2010-08-16 22:18 <kristianpaul> hmm :(
2010-08-16 22:19 <wpwrak> http://www.ti.com/litv/pdf/swra090
2010-08-16 22:20 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: wpwrak has a very German approach to regulation :-)
2010-08-16 22:20 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: he just doesn't like to give customs an excuse for causing trouble :)
2010-08-16 22:21 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: how is that, o dont understand the point?
2010-08-16 22:21 <kristianpaul> should i read about germany first?
2010-08-16 22:21 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: I was just kidding.
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> yes, maybe :-)
2010-08-16 22:21 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: wolfgang suggests the south american approach to regulations :)
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> and Chinese
2010-08-16 22:21 <kristianpaul> :D
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> and Arab
2010-08-16 22:21 <wolfspraul> and ...
2010-08-16 22:22 <wolfspraul> no Werner has good points
2010-08-16 22:22 <kristianpaul> oh i see the point now ;)
2010-08-16 22:23 <wpwrak> it's kinda the same as with patents. you can get away with a number of things, but you shouldn't rely on being able to do so forever. particularly if you're commercially successful :)
2010-08-16 22:23 <wolfspraul> yes, but maybe that's a universal truth. the more money you have, the more people are attracted to it.
2010-08-16 22:24 <wpwrak> true, yes. you just don't have to make it too easy for them :)
2010-08-16 22:24 <wolfspraul> these guys that just successfully squeezed 200 million USD out of Microsoft are now going after the next batch of companies with their trivial crap patents (I didn't read them and I won't, but I'd say a fair guess :-))
2010-08-16 22:25 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: it seems there is a trend in some countries to move higher bandwidth applications, especially anything voice and network related, out of 433
2010-08-16 22:25 <wolfspraul> and instead 'free it up' for sensors, 'technical applications'
2010-08-16 22:25 <wolfspraul> check dash7.org
2010-08-16 22:26 <wpwrak> yeah. now they're fed and strong. i kinda puzzled why this kind of people doesn't simply have some accident.
2010-08-16 22:26 <wolfspraul> because the ones they are fleecing are even fatter and stronger :-)
2010-08-16 22:27 <wpwrak> still, can't you remove someone without a trace back to you for that kind of money ? particularly now that they're going after lots of companies.
2010-08-16 22:27 <wolfspraul> but I think it's also safe to say that 433 will remain as an unlicensed spectrum, more important that cheap super high-volume ICs will continue to be designed and manufactured for it
2010-08-16 22:27 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: but if the ones they are going after have even more to loose, why should they?
2010-08-16 22:27 <wolfspraul> it makes no sense
2010-08-16 22:28 <kristianpaul> # Operation at 433 MHz, globally available, unlicensed spectrum :O
2010-08-16 22:28 <wpwrak> oh, 433 will be around. just not for what we want. that's what i meant with "it's dead" - not the technology as such, but in our context
2010-08-16 22:28 <wolfspraul> the patent system is a social system for the legal profession
2010-08-16 22:28 <wolfspraul> not what you want, yes
2010-08-16 22:28 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: yes, that's the marketing view of it, let's say 'american style'
2010-08-16 22:28 <wolfspraul> go for the money!
2010-08-16 22:28 <wolfspraul> meanwhile Werner digs up every last word in the regulations :-)
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> I'm looking at this from a very practical Chinese view
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> will cheap ICs be available or not
2010-08-16 22:29 <wpwrak> just enough to debunk the marketing :)
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> I think they will be.
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> cheap ICs can only be available if the volumes are very high
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> I don't want to pay more than 1-2 USD
2010-08-16 22:29 <kristianpaul> millions of ICs?
2010-08-16 22:29 <wpwrak> ieee 802.15.4 chips also aren't too bad
2010-08-16 22:29 <wolfspraul> so I'm not coming at this from the regulation side, I am coming at it from the cost side
2010-08-16 22:30 <wolfspraul> if you want an RF IC at 580 MHZ, for example, it will be crazy expensive because you have to do it all yourself
2010-08-16 22:30 <wolfspraul> but, big surprise, at 433 mhz there are 2 USD chips! great!
2010-08-16 22:30 <kristianpaul> :)
2010-08-16 22:30 <wolfspraul> of course millions, probably hundreds of millions
2010-08-16 22:30 <wolfspraul> hoperf sold 12 million modules in 2009 alone
2010-08-16 22:30 <kristianpaul> :O
2010-08-16 22:30 <wolfspraul> 60% 433, 20% 868, 20% 915
2010-08-16 22:30 <wpwrak> the chip i'm playing with costs you USD 2.0935 at 1000 units. cheap enough ? :)
2010-08-16 22:31 <wolfspraul> yes sure
2010-08-16 22:31 <wolfspraul> werner we are on the same page
2010-08-16 22:31 <wolfspraul> we look at this from different angles, I just try to explain to kristianpaul
2010-08-16 22:31 <wolfspraul> werner comes at it from a tech & regulation angle
2010-08-16 22:31 <wolfspraul> I come at it from a 'which IC can I get cheap, well documented, easily' angle
2010-08-16 22:31 <kristianpaul> evetually ignore regulation
2010-08-16 22:32 <wolfspraul> well that's not good either
2010-08-16 22:32 <nebajoth> yes, doesn't that require not heeding regulation at all?
2010-08-16 22:32 <wpwrak> :-)
2010-08-16 22:32 <wolfspraul> then you put yourself outside of large western markets like US and Europe, at least after you grow
2010-08-16 22:32 <kristianpaul> hmm
2010-08-16 22:32 <nebajoth> needs $1 gnu radio SOCs
2010-08-16 22:32 <wolfspraul> it's all about balance
2010-08-16 22:32 <wolfspraul> nebajoth: yes sure. if the global market would be 200kk/year you would have them
2010-08-16 22:33 <wpwrak> the problem is that you probably already fail FCC certification if you do this. or if you wiggle by, someone will dig out the regulations and you have PR problem. just no fun there.
2010-08-16 22:33 <kristianpaul> well, i will buy some resistors and try rmfblib anyway ;)
2010-08-16 22:33 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: you know how FCC certifications work, right?
2010-08-16 22:33 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: yes sure, play with 433 is cool
2010-08-16 22:33 <wolfspraul> see dash7.org
2010-08-16 22:33 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i know there are way around it :)
2010-08-16 22:33 <kristianpaul> seeing
2010-08-16 22:33 <kristianpaul> nice link!
2010-08-16 22:33 <wolfspraul> but I agree with Werner actually, 802.15.4 is very interesting for real networking stuff
2010-08-16 22:34 <kristianpaul> me too
2010-08-16 22:34 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: well yes, I thought I paste it to offset the regulation link werner gave you, which is kind of a depressing read to me :-)
2010-08-16 22:34 <kristianpaul> but too complicated for me :)
2010-08-16 22:34 <kristianpaul> i just want chatting !
2010-08-16 22:34 <wolfspraul> ironically it was werner himself who pointed me to dash7 :-)
2010-08-16 22:34 <kristianpaul> ohh
2010-08-16 22:34 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: thanks !
2010-08-16 22:34 <wolfspraul> yeah that's werner
2010-08-16 22:34 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i'm actuallly quite happy that TI are collecting all that stuff. it would be nearly impossible to figure it out otherwise :-(
2010-08-16 22:34 <wolfspraul> he can handle some contradictions :-)
2010-08-16 22:35 <wolfspraul> true, but remember, some things grow the deeper you dig
2010-08-16 22:35 <wpwrak> let's hope not :) it's deep enough already ...
2010-08-16 22:35 <wolfspraul> there are a lot of regulations that are meaningless, not enforced, well meant but ...
2010-08-16 22:35 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon:  MLF20m1 fixed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/b05f6ed
2010-08-16 22:35 <wolfspraul> then xx years later someone cleans it up, or maybe not
2010-08-16 22:36 <wpwrak> btw, 433 seems to be more open in china. some ieee 802.15.4 document are referring to this band specifically "for china"
2010-08-16 22:36 <wolfspraul> I don't know. I can only talk to vendors, find out volume, how much they are shipping here and there.
2010-08-16 22:36 <wolfspraul> everybody on that side says 433 is global.
2010-08-16 22:36 <wolfspraul> they are shipping millions and millions of this stuff
2010-08-16 22:36 <wpwrak> :)
2010-08-16 22:36 <kristianpaul> wow http://dash7.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=13
2010-08-16 22:37 <wpwrak> it is global. just mind the find print :)
2010-08-16 22:37 <wolfspraul> that doesn't sound like customs is waiting to catch the dangerous 433 emissions
2010-08-16 22:37 <wolfspraul> I think we can settle on 433 being best for 'technical applications'
2010-08-16 22:37 <wpwrak> i guess customs will only bother you once some competitor tells them to ...
2010-08-16 22:37 <wolfspraul> correct
2010-08-16 22:37 <wolfspraul> now you are moving to the real world :-)
2010-08-16 22:38 <wpwrak> the problem is that you then have to switch to something else. so, why not start with a "safe" band in the first place ?
2010-08-16 22:38 <wolfspraul> only if they have a case
2010-08-16 22:38 <wolfspraul> but no need to argue this, I actually agree with you
2010-08-16 22:39 <wolfspraul> I said it many times - 433 - no voice, no networking
2010-08-16 22:39 <wolfspraul> all cool with me
2010-08-16 22:39 <wolfspraul> I can market a product like this, and if someone hacks it up, not my problem.
2010-08-16 22:39 <wpwrak> you love it so much you forgive it any flaws ;-)
2010-08-16 22:39 <kristianpaul> ahh and fianlly have to pay to the "alliance"
2010-08-16 22:40 <kristianpaul> thats why i never join menberchip groups
2010-08-16 22:40 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: yup. dash7 ain't open.
2010-08-16 22:40 <wolfspraul> dash7 is patented, correct. but that's only their protocol, not the whole band.
2010-08-16 22:40 <wolfspraul> I just wanted to point you to a site that paints a more optimistic picture about 433 than werner.
2010-08-16 22:40 <kristianpaul> yeah 433 likes better
2010-08-16 22:41 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: in one of the documents you referred me to, I read that luxembourg has special wifi regulations.
2010-08-16 22:41 <wolfspraul> argh
2010-08-16 22:41 <wolfspraul> I stopped reading at that point.
2010-08-16 22:41 <kristianpaul> back to read about PSK31
2010-08-16 22:41 <wpwrak> i'm not sure they disagree with me. their use is very different, though. 433 is find for sensor networks and such. as long as you don't read them too often.
2010-08-16 22:41 <wolfspraul> I grew up right next to luxembourg.
2010-08-16 22:41 <wpwrak> s/find/fine/
2010-08-16 22:41 <wolfspraul> even if they have special regulations, it takes about 30 minutes in any direction to leave the country. borders are open.
2010-08-16 22:41 <wpwrak> ;-))
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> that's less than it takes me to go to the big electronics shopping area here in Beijing.
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> seriously, this stuff only exists so some luxembourgian officials have something to do.
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> not just reading newspaper every day in the office.
2010-08-16 22:42 <wpwrak> so it seems :)
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> so they write something...
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> TI picks it up.
2010-08-16 22:42 <wolfspraul> and Werner makes sure the whole world thinks about it :-)
2010-08-16 22:43 <wpwrak> well, if you intend to sell  in luxembourg or sell to a reseller there, then you may care. at least warn them.
2010-08-16 22:43 <wolfspraul> just kidding werner, I hope you don't mind...
2010-08-16 22:43 <wolfspraul> well
2010-08-16 22:43 <wolfspraul> worst case the product is only available behind the border, i.e. about as far away as any shop inside the city would be too.
2010-08-16 22:43 <wpwrak> of course, you can put a big warning "illegal in luxembourg". maybe people will actually like that ;-)
2010-08-16 22:44 <wpwrak> yeah, sure
2010-08-16 22:44 <wolfspraul> there are no border controls, just a sign 'entering luxembourg'.
2010-08-16 22:44 <wolfspraul> so you have to go to the media markt behind that sign? big deal...
2010-08-16 22:44 <wpwrak> maybe their regs aren't too different from the rest anyway
2010-08-16 22:44 <wolfspraul> it seems you need a special license to operate a public wifi
2010-08-16 22:44 <wolfspraul> I didnt' really read it.
2010-08-16 22:44 <wpwrak> wow :)
2010-08-16 22:45 <wolfspraul> we shouldn't forget the real intentions of regulations.
2010-08-16 22:45 <wolfspraul> if it's just to keep bureaucrats fed, that's one thing.
2010-08-16 22:45 <wolfspraul> if its' about safety, interference, etc. that's another thing
2010-08-16 22:45 <wpwrak> yeah, keep things from interfering
2010-08-16 22:45 <wolfspraul> both are real :-)
2010-08-16 22:45 <wpwrak> yup
2010-08-16 22:47 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: get better soon (read about the flu above)
2010-08-16 22:47 <wpwrak> thanks ! already preparing to take my canadian bug killer medicine ...
2010-08-16 22:49 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: btw, inside China, I can tell you what is cheap will spread, what's written on paper cannot stop that.
2010-08-16 22:49 <wolfspraul> so the western regulations influence what spreads in china because they steer investments in a certain direction
2010-08-16 22:49 <wolfspraul> which then leads to cheap products in certain areas, which will then spread inside China
2010-08-16 22:50 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: PSU controller added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/8cf60ce
2010-08-16 22:50 <wolfspraul> the country is far too big to stop anything 'illegal' from spreading
2010-08-16 22:50 <wolfspraul> so if the 433 mhz rf ic is the cheapest, it will spread
2010-08-16 22:50 <wolfspraul> the moment the xxx mhz ic is just 5 cents cheaper, it will move to that one
2010-08-16 22:50 <wolfspraul> the xxx doesn't matter
2010-08-16 22:51 <kristianpaul> great !
2010-08-16 22:51 <kristianpaul> *there*
2010-08-16 22:51 <kristianpaul> but great anyway :)
2010-08-16 22:51 <wolfspraul> so if some large US companies start to order xxx mhz rf ics, and they become very cheap due to super high volume, then those chips will also spread in China.
2010-08-16 22:51 <kristianpaul> how is GSM tech going in china btw?
2010-08-16 22:51 <wolfspraul> great
2010-08-16 22:52 <wolfspraul> 2g, 3g, cdma, td-scdma, etc.
2010-08-16 22:52 <wolfspraul> it's a huge country, don't forget that. everything exists somewhere.
2010-08-16 22:53 <wolfspraul> and as I said, if something is ordered by a foreign company, and that makes certain things cheap, then those same things will also be sold in China
2010-08-16 22:53 <wolfspraul> I'm now using my cheap 20 USD phone to see how long it lasts.
2010-08-16 22:53 <wolfspraul> and voice quality in general.
2010-08-16 22:54 <kristianpaul> oh good, you it englihsh menu finally?
2010-08-16 22:54 <wolfspraul> yes :-)
2010-08-16 23:49 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: DDR0 termaintor placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/cf1645b