2010-08-14 00:43 <roh> wolfspraul i like the open-ness
2010-08-14 00:44 <roh> i dont believe in fpga stuff at all. too expensive for ce-stuff. but of course a required evil (including the toolchain) on the way to custom asic(s)
2010-08-14 00:45 <roh> if you want  some constructive critic... less foo, more bar. small steps, but one people can buy
2010-08-14 00:46 <roh> foo meaning 'endless discussions with people who have not tried $something' and bar meaning all the little cool working hacks which get done and published.
2010-08-14 00:48 <roh> s/buy/get
2010-08-14 00:49 <roh> does that make sense?
2010-08-14 01:05 <roh> wolfspraul do you know thingieverse? i'd love to have that for hardware. pcb, schem, sw/links to sw and for example some 'shop' integration for people who want to buy parts, kits or even assembled devices of that. (the shop part could be some pcb-manuf, sponsoring agreement, or make the pcbs cheaper for stuff in the shop or so.
2010-08-14 01:06 <roh> and i need octoparts for europe and asia!
2010-08-14 01:07 <roh> does anybody know the guys of octoparts?
2010-08-14 01:09 <wolfspraul> roh: ok totally agree with you, I try 'less foo more bar' a lot
2010-08-14 01:10 <wolfspraul> I also agree on the fpga price issue, it's a necessary evil for a while. I do like Werner's repeated attempts to install a micro-fpga somewhere, that could help moving forward step by step.
2010-08-14 01:10 <wolfspraul> so we see maybe we need that somewhere in fpga land, or to do sdio2whatever bridges
2010-08-14 01:10 <wolfspraul> I meant 'somewhere in rf land'
2010-08-14 01:10 <wolfspraul> not wasting time on theoretical discussion - YES MAN I hear you :-)
2010-08-14 01:11 <wolfspraul> I don't know thingieverse need to check, and I don't know the octopart guys either although I like the site
2010-08-14 01:17 <roh> having thousands of chinese and other asian traders feed their 'sourcing information' into it could be interresting.
2010-08-14 01:18 <roh> thingieverse is like google code in very simple for physical things
2010-08-14 01:18 <roh> http://www.thingiverse.com/raumfahrtagentur for example
2010-08-14 01:20 <roh> the whole physical-thing-rapid-prototyping community is even more trial and error than the sw one i think ;)
2010-08-14 01:25 <wolfspraul> nice, I will check it out
2010-08-14 01:25 <wolfspraul> need to run for the milkymist case meeting now...
2010-08-14 01:25 <wolfspraul> already late...
2010-08-14 01:25 <wolfspraul> cya
2010-08-14 02:03 <wpwrak> roh: ah, which part of ieee 802.15.4 is too complex ? i still haven't quite decided whether i like it, but at least the chips are fairly decent. more evolved than any of the sub-ghz stuff i looked at.
2010-08-14 02:04 <wpwrak> roh: at the same time, you can't dumb them down quite as much. but then, these features may be somewhat hypothetical anyway.
2010-08-14 02:09 <wpwrak> wolfspraul in absentia, roh: for the record, i'm not trying to push cpld/fpgas. i just recognize them as a necessary evil if taking certain paths. there are actually "open" cplds out there, i.e., in cypress' psoc3 chips. but they have certain drawbacks as well.
2010-08-14 02:26 <roh> wpwrak what features? the 'mesh' foobar?
2010-08-14 02:54 <alcy> this thing's real cool, for normal suers as well. even it has its own distro-hopping stage. So from openwrt->debian, now running jlime, and its brilliant.
2010-08-14 05:37 <tuxbrain2> rafa , kristianpaul, zear and any other jlime guru out there... how change volume on GMU?
2010-08-14 05:37 <bartbes> the volume buttons don't work?
2010-08-14 05:37 <tuxbrain2> nop
2010-08-14 05:38 <bartbes> try the about screen
2010-08-14 05:38 <wejp> tuxbrain2, if the volume buttons do not work, they probably have been mapped to different key codes in jlime
2010-08-14 05:38 <bartbes> iirc it listed the controls
2010-08-14 05:38 <zear> tuxbrain2, no idea :D I don't use gmu in jlime
2010-08-14 05:38 <wejp> you can change the keycode mappings for gmu without recompiling, there is a config file for that, but of course you need to know which codes they use now
2010-08-14 05:38 <bartbes> tuxbrain2: wejp is probably right, so if you manage to find the keycodes you can
2010-08-14 05:38 <bartbes> aww ninjad
2010-08-14 05:39 <tuxbrain2> any easy way to know the keykodes?
2010-08-14 05:39 <zear> volume keys in jlime are mapped as page up/page down
2010-08-14 05:39 <bartbes> oh that sounds useful
2010-08-14 05:40 <wejp> then the keycodes should be 280 and 281
2010-08-14 05:41 <tuxbrain2> I will try ...
2010-08-14 05:41 <wejp> the file is gmuinput.nanonote.conf
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> just to make sure actully the gmuinput.nanonote.conf have this:
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> ...
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> Button-73=280,PageUp
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> Button-74=281,PageDown
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> Button-75=292,Vol+
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> Button-76=293,Vol-
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> ...
2010-08-14 05:43 <tuxbrain2> I don't know what does 73 and 74
2010-08-14 05:43 <wejp> it probably doesn't do anything in your case
2010-08-14 05:44 <wejp> you can ignoe those
2010-08-14 05:44 <wejp> ignore
2010-08-14 05:44 <tuxbrain2> can I repeat keykodes then?
2010-08-14 05:45 <wejp> do not repeat them but instead better set the values for PageUp and PageDown to something else, otherwise those would be picked first if the keycode occurs, which would result in no action most likely
2010-08-14 05:45 <tuxbrain2> whatever it works now :)
2010-08-14 05:45 <wejp> or remove thoise lines, but then you need to renumber the following lines accordingly
2010-08-14 05:45 <wejp> ah, cool :)
2010-08-14 05:45 <tuxbrain2> repeating keycodes
2010-08-14 05:46 <wejp> okay
2010-08-14 05:46 <tuxbrain2> so Discography part of Nanowar True Edition finised :)
2010-08-14 05:46 <tuxbrain2> no let's pimp something els
2010-08-14 05:46 <tuxbrain2> else
2010-08-14 05:47 <tuxbrain2> damn now let's pimp somthing else
2010-08-14 05:59 <bartbes> ugh.. the one time I compile without V=99 it errors.. of course
2010-08-14 06:13 <tuxbrain2> wejp: When a song doesn't have a *.txt of lyrics gmu shows the first txt it founds, in this case the lyrics of the first song, this is a desired behaviour or a bug?
2010-08-14 06:14 <bartbes> I believe that acts exactly like the default settings say it should
2010-08-14 06:14 <wejp> desired behaviour. actually in gmu's config file you can define a list of patterns gmu should search for and this is what i had predefined
2010-08-14 06:14 <wejp> you can change that to whatever you like
2010-08-14 06:14 <bartbes> you can change that behaviour in ~/.gmu.conf (or whatever it was called)
2010-08-14 06:14 <tuxbrain2> ok :)
2010-08-14 06:15 <wejp> ~/.config/gmu/gmu.nanonote.conf
2010-08-14 06:15 <bartbes> oh heh
2010-08-14 06:15 <wejp> :)
2010-08-14 06:15 <tuxbrain2> I think I will put a txt with the url of the band instead :)
2010-08-14 06:16 <tuxbrain2> in a 00_Readme.txt
2010-08-14 06:16 <wejp> that's fine
2010-08-14 06:21 <bartbes> are any of you experienced in working with lua on the nn?
2010-08-14 07:38 <wpwrak> roh: i don't think 802.15.4 has a mesh. that's what things like xigbee add on top. ieee 802.15.4 is only phy and mac. (haven't read the standard yet, though)
2010-08-14 07:41 <wpwrak> roh: i mean simpler features, like clock recovery and framing. some of the sub-ghz chips let you turn off all this, and you get just a bit stream or even a continuous-time digital signal
2010-08-14 07:42 <wpwrak> roh: ieee 82.15.4 chips go as far as offering auto-ack and auto-arq`
2010-08-14 08:22 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (cpld) i'm not promoting them. i'm just telling you they can be the consequence of your actions :-)
2010-08-14 08:23 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: cpld = complex programmable logic device ("complex" as opposed to the "standard logic", 4 XOR gates in a chip or so)
2010-08-14 08:23 <wolfspraul> sure I read it in the logs. No worries I got your point long ago.
2010-08-14 08:23 <wolfspraul> let's see where ben-wpan takes you, then we go from there...
2010-08-14 08:23 <wolfspraul> btw - I was really looking for pervertix to add to the commitlog until I realized you made a joke
2010-08-14 08:24 <wolfspraul> sounds like a project name you would actually choose... :-)
2010-08-14 08:24 <wpwrak> i also think that, given that at least half of the hw side of the project is already deep into fpgas, the pain of having a cpld - in terms of development effort - wouldn't be too great
2010-08-14 08:24 <wpwrak> cplds are basically small fpgas. you use the same languages and tools to program tham.
2010-08-14 08:24 <wpwrak> ;-))))
2010-08-14 08:25 <wpwrak> (project name) after all, i made #3 on google for "devirginator" ;-)
2010-08-14 08:26 <bartbes> wolfspraul: are you sure wpwrak isn't sponsored by some company specializing in logic devices? :P
2010-08-14 08:26 <wpwrak> i have to admit that i expected the word to be more common, although not quite in IT :)
2010-08-14 08:27 <wpwrak> bartbes: it's actually the Reformed Vogons. they've abandoned the old way of blasting planets away and not prefer if the destructive force comes from within. after they saw the Terminator documentary, they were sold on the idea of aggressively advancing technological progress on earth, to the aforementioned end.
2010-08-14 08:27 <wpwrak> s/not/now/
2010-08-14 08:28 <lekernel> what do you need a cpld for?
2010-08-14 08:29 <wpwrak> lekernel: convert the multi-megabit Q/I bitstream from an RF frontend to something the xburst can receive in a halfway efficient way
2010-08-14 08:29 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I took you out of the sige loop at some point, things are moving there now. a 4162 evb is on the way to adam, who will do a bit of study, look into the antenna etc, then send this all on to cristian paul
2010-08-14 08:30 <wolfspraul> I am planning a sige visit next time I am in or hear HK, and they have already confirmed
2010-08-14 08:30 <lekernel> for what? wifi?
2010-08-14 08:30 <wpwrak> lekernel: gps
2010-08-14 08:30 <lekernel> a lot of RF modulations are super compute intensive and will blow the xburst
2010-08-14 08:30 <lekernel> hm, don't know so much about gps :p
2010-08-14 08:31 <lekernel> but i'd still put all the gps processing into some fpga... a multi-mbit dsp stream will definitely load the cpu quite heavily
2010-08-14 08:32 <lekernel> btw who's going to work on that thing?
2010-08-14 08:32 <roh> wpwrak what about the ti wifi stuff?
2010-08-14 08:32 <wpwrak> lekernel: it's been claimed that gps should be within the reach of what the xburst can do. we'll see if this is true :) i don't know much about the digital signal processing side of it, but i can see the pain you'd have with the raw bit stream. particularly since the xburst can't do spi slave.
2010-08-14 08:32 <roh> wpwrak the one the n900 uses
2010-08-14 08:32 <wpwrak> roh: the one only intended for large customers ?
2010-08-14 08:32 <lekernel> maybe it can do it, but if it uses 90% of the CPU time it's still not good
2010-08-14 08:32 <lekernel> who's going to write all the DSP stuff?
2010-08-14 08:33 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: sounds good
2010-08-14 08:33 <wolfspraul> lekernel: there seems to be a number of projects out there already, not sure how reusable etc. but they exist.
2010-08-14 08:33 <roh> lekernel fpga are expensive. dsp eat batteries for breakfast
2010-08-14 08:33 <wpwrak> lekernel: wolfgnag's idea is to have a dual-core cpu next, and to use one core to "play"
2010-08-14 08:34 <wolfspraul> another project claims to release sources 'soon', although I tend to leave my expectations at zero in such cases
2010-08-14 08:34 <lekernel> roh, if you do the IQ signal processing on a xburst, I still call that a DSP
2010-08-14 08:34 <wolfspraul> cristian paul will work on it
2010-08-14 08:34 <wpwrak> roh: it will burn battery power like there's no tomorrow for sure :)
2010-08-14 08:34 <roh> does not want to use sdr for data communication. nice for a develboard. worthless on a real world device
2010-08-14 08:34 <roh> lekernel still, its stupid.
2010-08-14 08:34 <lekernel> sdr? worthless?
2010-08-14 08:34 <lekernel> lol
2010-08-14 08:35 <wpwrak> roh: i guess it's just a question of time. think of it as research.
2010-08-14 08:35 <lekernel> if done right SDR kicks ass
2010-08-14 08:35 <roh> lekernel for real world things like 'ip communication' sdr is a studid idea. yes.
2010-08-14 08:35 <wpwrak> roh: by the time it's actually debugged, maybe there is a chip that does sdr in a reasonably efficient way
2010-08-14 08:35 <roh> sdr ALWAYS eats more power than a regular approach.
2010-08-14 08:35 <lekernel> what do you call a "regular" approach?
2010-08-14 08:36 <lekernel> diode and capacitor?
2010-08-14 08:36 <roh> depends on the modulation.
2010-08-14 08:36 <lekernel> thanks to SDR you can implement complex and very efficient modulations
2010-08-14 08:36 <wpwrak> roh: perhaps. but the absolute value will go down. at some point you simply don't care whether you burn 1 nW or 100 nW :-)
2010-08-14 08:36 <lekernel> then you need less transmitting power and in some cases less RF bandwidth
2010-08-14 08:36 <lekernel> both are cool: less overall power consumption, less RF pollution
2010-08-14 08:36 <roh> lekernel come down from your theoretical island. in realworld that all doesnt matter.
2010-08-14 08:37 <lekernel> oh yeah? what about digital TV then?
2010-08-14 08:37 <roh> lekernel no sdr there.
2010-08-14 08:38 <roh> lekernel same on gsm.
2010-08-14 08:38 <wpwrak> lekernel: good point. you can use adaptive modulation/demodulation methods. particularly demodulation could be interesting to better compensate for distortions.
2010-08-14 08:38 <lekernel> well, ok, maybe a lot of GSM and digital TV chips aren't that reconfigurable that you would call them "software"
2010-08-14 08:38 <lekernel> but it's still the same idea
2010-08-14 08:38 <roh> yes, these demods do use i and q and a dsp. but they also do clock-syncing and not use a free running adc.
2010-08-14 08:39 <roh> no free running adc -> no sdr.
2010-08-14 08:39 <roh> only math-assisted demod of synced samples.
2010-08-14 08:39 <wpwrak> roh: also, don't forget that SDR for GPS+foo+bar+whatever always uses the same number of chips. with the one-chip-per-radio approach, you quickly have half a board of them.
2010-08-14 08:40 <roh> actually most of these demods do not even have any possibility to upload firmware (anymore). they come mask-programmed and have a but of overlay-ram to upload 'patches'
2010-08-14 08:40 <roh> wpwrak sdr doesnt work with the help of hw-mixer-hw and filters.
2010-08-14 08:41 <wpwrak> roh: well, see the wbx :)
2010-08-14 08:41 <roh> wpwrak so a 'allband-tranciever' is pure fantasy. the usrp (gnuradio) also needs hw-extentions for every frequency range
2010-08-14 08:41 <wpwrak> roh: make it a bit wider and you're there :)
2010-08-14 08:41 <roh> you can buy a usrp for a few bucks, but can buy half a car's price in frontends. (and these are not even quite good ones)
2010-08-14 08:41 <wpwrak> roh: 50-2000 MHz doesn't sound too shabby to me
2010-08-14 08:43 <wpwrak> roh: naw, the usrp is still more expensive than all the useful frontends together
2010-08-14 08:43 <bartbes> wolfspraul: I'm currently stuck with what seems to be a lua bug, but I have a vid you might want to see
2010-08-14 08:43 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: eth-phy placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ef72b75
2010-08-14 08:43 <roh> wpwrak imho none of the original fe are worth their money. low-end-ce tuner crap.
2010-08-14 08:43 <bartbes> have you seen the video of the first 'game' I was going to port?
2010-08-14 08:43 <wolfspraul> bartbes: always!
2010-08-14 08:44 <wpwrak> roh: e.g., i already have half the collection of useful frontends at home, i.e., the one for 2.4/5.x GHz :)
2010-08-14 08:44 <wolfspraul> no haven't seen any video from you
2010-08-14 08:44 <bartbes> this one: http://vimeo.com/1367117
2010-08-14 08:44 <roh> in the end its a question of 'power' .. i mean.. have you played with a gnuradio?
2010-08-14 08:44 <wpwrak> roh: ooh, the tv thingie. c'mon.
2010-08-14 08:44 <roh> try some dvb-t. in realtime please. and leave enough cpupower on that core2duo for a bit of mpeg2
2010-08-14 08:45 <bartbes> well, here's part of it running on the nn: http://bartbes.ath.cx/public/nlove.ogv
2010-08-14 08:45 <wpwrak> roh: have a look at the site. it has changed in the last decade ;-)
2010-08-14 08:45 <roh> same goes for wifi. ofdm in sw is simply a very bad idea.
2010-08-14 08:45 <wpwrak> roh: dunno about dvb-t. i see 802.11a/b/g/n, though.
2010-08-14 08:46 <roh> wpwrak any ofdm with some complex modulation in it.
2010-08-14 08:46 <wpwrak> roh: and pretty much any other protocol i find interesting
2010-08-14 08:46 <roh> the point is simply: freerunning adc/dac and sdr will cost something. its experimental and not for sale if you want to earn money.
2010-08-14 08:47 <wolfspraul> bartbes: he he! cool!
2010-08-14 08:47 <wolfspraul> the game means you just keep shooting at HK forever?
2010-08-14 08:47 <bartbes> oh, it's more like a vid..
2010-08-14 08:47 <wolfspraul> HK does not seem to be too frightened from the sea otters...
2010-08-14 08:47 <roh> its the question if one wants to build another usrp, or something useable to transport ip
2010-08-14 08:48 <wolfspraul> bartbes: sure got that already. well great!
2010-08-14 08:48 <wpwrak> roh: i think sdr will eventually happen also in the ce market. like nobody build boards with lots of logic chips anymore but just uses a cpld to, more often, a microcontroller
2010-08-14 08:49 <wpwrak> roh: it is less effcient, but it doesn't matter. and it's probably more efficient for development.
2010-08-14 08:49 <roh> wpwrak there is just no reason for it. sdr is more expensive than any other possibility.
2010-08-14 08:50 <bartbes> wolfspraul: as you may or may not be able to see (I personally can't see it all too good), the speed on the nn is a little off
2010-08-14 08:50 <roh> developmentboards cost 20times the money of ce-electronics.
2010-08-14 08:50 <wpwrak> roh: today, yes. tomorrow ? see above.
2010-08-14 08:50 <roh> sure it helps development. for signal-engineers. not for any ce-user
2010-08-14 08:50 <bartbes> (but it is somewhat noticable)
2010-08-14 08:50 <bartbes> ironically the nn runs faster ;)
2010-08-14 08:51 <bartbes> but that's because due to the aforementioned lua bug it thinks time is going faster than it really is
2010-08-14 08:52 <wpwrak> roh: in any case, let's see what crawls out of it. i'm not sure myself whether that gps project will work.
2010-08-14 08:53 <wpwrak> roh: they guys playing with it seem to like it well enough, so everyone's happy :)
2010-08-14 08:54 <roh> wpwrak playing!=usable for ce users.
2010-08-14 08:54 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: am I included in this? yeah, definitely happy here!
2010-08-14 08:54 <wolfspraul> even if it doesn't work, I want to really fully understand why not, otherwise how can I make the next step :-)
2010-08-14 08:55 <roh> wpwrak sure i find that massively interresting. but i am not ready to 'pay' multiple times the power-budget for 'gps reciever' than something with 50 hw-korrelator channels does
2010-08-14 08:55 <roh> wpwrak which means again 'development' .. yes. sdr is for development. not for using afterwards.
2010-08-14 08:56 <roh> the idea is to learn something and design an asic from that (imho)
2010-08-14 08:56 <wpwrak> roh: i think that;s the end goal, yes
2010-08-14 08:56 <wpwrak> roh: so if you have an interim result that's a little crappy, that's okay
2010-08-14 08:57 <roh> my point is simply: a device will cost n times as much and run n times less long if it uses sdr instead of hw-mod/demod. and thats not acceptable for any mobile device one wants use.
2010-08-14 08:57 <roh> the moko had such problems and thats why it was worthless as day-to-day-phone.
2010-08-14 08:58 <roh> not because of sdr in that case, but the end result was similar.
2010-08-14 08:58 <roh> people are not ready to accept such limitations on non-develboards
2010-08-14 09:00 <lekernel> roh, there's a continuum of technical solutions between doing everything in hardware and everything in software (SDR), just pick an appropriate one :)
2010-08-14 09:00 <wpwrak> roh: it doesnt't have to be the xburst that runs all the sdr. you can always choose the granularity of your sdr instructions. maybe throw some configurable logic into the mix.
2010-08-14 09:00 <lekernel> that's what computer architecture is all about
2010-08-14 09:01 <wpwrak> lekernel: exactly :)
2010-08-14 09:01 <roh> lekernel i know how sdr works and i am not against it in general. its just a totally idiotic and reality-ignoring pov to say it can be used in real-world ce applications properly. especially on mobile devices.
2010-08-14 09:02 <roh> wpwrak the point is: one doesnt need any sdr for what we use day-to-day on rf.
2010-08-14 09:02 <lekernel> then what about SDR on a very specific processor?
2010-08-14 09:02 <roh> lekernel that still needs multiple times as much power
2010-08-14 09:02 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: (pervertix) btw, you should know that i hate those "optimized for small systems" packages - kicking them as far as i could was one of the key pleasures i had in myroot ;-)
2010-08-14 09:02 <roh> we are talking dsps on hundreds of mhz, where one wouldn have a dsp at all.
2010-08-14 09:03 <lekernel> ever heard of multimode hardware synthesis?
2010-08-14 09:03 <lekernel> that's another point on the continuum I was talking about
2010-08-14 09:04 <roh> lekernel theory doesnt get you further here.
2010-08-14 09:04 <wpwrak> roh: if you want to speak a lot of rf protocols, that bom makes sdr suddenly look quite nice.
2010-08-14 09:04 <roh> wpwrak may be. nobody does that for a reason. the rf frontend is too different for the different protocols.
2010-08-14 09:04 <wpwrak> roh: just consider N chips, O(N) oscillators, mixing all those antennas, coexistence, etc. at some point in time, sdr is cheaper :)
2010-08-14 09:05 <lekernel> roh, I'm not the last one to complain about techno-weenie researchers and cheap talk about theory, but still I believe in SDR
2010-08-14 09:05 <roh> wpwrak theory. in reality you have problems like interoperability. the need to use more than one if at the same time.. etc.
2010-08-14 09:06 <roh> wpwrak there is no manuf atm afaik which does bt and wifi on the same radio. there are combo-chips but they have seperate rf sections and mods/demods
2010-08-14 09:06 <lekernel> and modifying the processor to better handle a particular task isn't theory
2010-08-14 09:06 <roh> wpwrak simple as that. these guys arent stupid, working at atheros, broadcom, ti etc.
2010-08-14 09:06 <wpwrak> roh: you may not necessarily run all of the protocols at the same time. consider the ability to pick them a la carte.
2010-08-14 09:07 <wpwrak> roh: (wlan and bt) there may simply be no economical incentive for them them to do better
2010-08-14 09:07 <roh> wpwrak i still would not buy such a device if i can get an alternative one. in my experience a frontend doing discrete demod can do the same as a sdr one on less than 10% of the sdr power budget.
2010-08-14 09:08 <wpwrak> roh: there are a lot of areas where development stalls until someone comes with a new idea/implementation that threatens the establishment
2010-08-14 09:08 <roh> wpwrak oh.. there IS economic interrest there.
2010-08-14 09:08 <wpwrak> roh: e.g., think laptops vs. netbooks
2010-08-14 09:08 <roh> bt and wlan eat space. pcb space, really precious space
2010-08-14 09:08 <roh> wpwrak huh? nothing new there at all.
2010-08-14 09:09 <roh> netbooks are just smaaÃall notebooks. not a single 'new' bit around it.
2010-08-14 09:09 <roh> boring old hw. same shit we had before.
2010-08-14 09:09 <roh> its just hyped.
2010-08-14 09:09 <wpwrak> roh: (wlan and bt) make one chip that's smaller than the competition. i assure you they won't rest until they have one too :)
2010-08-14 09:10 <roh> wpwrak you know that dsps are bigger than most discrete asic demods? (diespace) ;)
2010-08-14 09:11 <roh> an oamp are just a few transistors, and a few oamps and you got your demod.
2010-08-14 09:11 <roh> there are cases where even running the pll for the dsp eats more power than the demod would use if done classic
2010-08-14 09:11 <wpwrak> roh: (laptops) well, the sub-notebook area was almost dead for several years. they all made big machines. you're right, the netbook was nothing truly new, but it changed the rules anyway. also by breaking the association between high-end CPUs == a quality product.
2010-08-14 09:11 <lekernel> good luck demodulating wifi with op amps...
2010-08-14 09:12 <wpwrak> lekernel: bah, i'd use valves ;-)
2010-08-14 09:12 <wpwrak> ergh, tubes
2010-08-14 09:12 <roh> lekernel examples. not everything is ofdm
2010-08-14 09:13 <wpwrak> brr. terminologies from different languages mixing.
2010-08-14 09:13 <wpwrak> roh: dsps are pigs, i agree
2010-08-14 09:13 <roh> and right now i dont see any reason to use sdr for wifi. it will eat loads more power than the full what a pc-wifi-chipset would use.
2010-08-14 09:13 <wpwrak> roh: a bit like fpgas
2010-08-14 09:13 <roh> we are on mobile devices, so 1W is our FULL power budget.
2010-08-14 09:13 <roh> means with display and app-cpu
2010-08-14 09:14 <wpwrak> roh: well, remember the calypso ? there's a dsp inside too. that one wasn't so bad.
2010-08-14 09:14 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: fixed xil2kc.py error http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a8ff17c
2010-08-14 09:16 <wpwrak> i see .fpds in xue/source/tree/master/kicad/modules/. nice ;-)
2010-08-14 09:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: fixed xc6slx45fgg484.lib  error http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/bd8f8b9
2010-08-14 09:19 <wpwrak> roh: anyway, i see no harm in people trying to to gps sdr on the xburst. if it works in a useful way, we all win. if it doesn't, experience will be gained and fun has been had.
2010-08-14 09:20 <roh> wpwrak the calypso iuuses a dsp for demod. yes. but its not sdr.
2010-08-14 09:21 <roh> wpwrak it uses a synced clock, so its not a free running adc. limits the amount of samples to take and do math on to an absolute minimum and removes oversampling
2010-08-14 09:21 <roh> and clock recovery
2010-08-14 09:21 <roh> (in sw)
2010-08-14 09:21 <roh> wpwrak do experiments for sure. but dont waste your hopes on that. neither for communication not for gps or so
2010-08-14 09:24 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: fixed FPGA component bug http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/4110ee2
2010-08-14 09:26 <roh> i really hope somebody build a free gps and or wifi chip some day. but i am not ready to wait that long.
2010-08-14 09:29 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: [smaller chip] totally agree. the IC sales people in china all know the die size in micron, and the company powerpoint presentation shows how much it decreases each year, etc.
2010-08-14 09:29 <wolfspraul> it depends on volume, but one rough number to start thinking is that the typical IC engineering will work until they have about 20% size savings, then tape-out
2010-08-14 09:29 <roh> wolfspraul hehe.. thats something not possible to shring endless in the rf world, where wavelength defines some structures
2010-08-14 09:29 <wolfspraul> in higher volume you can tape-out for lesser improvements, in lower-volume you need larger size reductions
2010-08-14 09:30 <wolfspraul> but that's how the machine works, and how people operate
2010-08-14 09:30 <roh> 20% less is quite some archievement.
2010-08-14 09:30 <wolfspraul> roh: first of all I'm explaining how sales people think/talk, how they present their company to customers, etc. the sales people are just that, sales people, but that's the dynamic in the industry.
2010-08-14 09:30 <wolfspraul> just my feedback to wpwrak's comment about 'smaller'
2010-08-14 09:31 <bartbes> wolfspraul: btw, I just updated the vid to a 720p one
2010-08-14 09:31 <bartbes> and this one is in-focus ;)
2010-08-14 09:32 <wolfspraul> and the CEO of Ingenic, for example (makers of the XBurst chips in the Ben NanoNote), knows the percentage of die space for each feature.
2010-08-14 09:32 <wolfspraul> that's just how their minds work
2010-08-14 09:33 <wolfspraul> so we look at this as 'video-out', or 'usb on-the-go', but in his mind it's 4% and 7%, or whatever :-)
2010-08-14 09:33 <wolfspraul> funny, eh?
2010-08-14 09:34 <roh> wolfspraul we have to differenciate between digital only and mixed signal chips
2010-08-14 09:34 <wpwrak> CEO: we need to make it smaller", and kicks out gps :)
2010-08-14 09:34 <wpwrak> now, wait, this *has* happened .... ;-)
2010-08-14 09:34 <wolfspraul> roh: yes sure, I know little about all this, asking around, talking, learning...
2010-08-14 09:35 <roh> video-out is foobar in my eyes. waste of engineering time. ever connected you phone to some tv?
2010-08-14 09:36 <wolfspraul> is it in the N900? how many N900 users do you think use it?
2010-08-14 09:36 <bartbes> btw, when I want to link to the ben nanonote, do I link to the wiki page?
2010-08-14 09:36 <roh> even if it works, it looks awful. (tv on cvbs is shitty resolution)
2010-08-14 09:36 <wolfspraul> bartbes: yes, wiki is good, it's the homepage
2010-08-14 09:36 <bartbes> okay
2010-08-14 09:36 <roh> wolfspraul ive had loads of devices with tv-out. used none of them for it ever
2010-08-14 09:36 <wolfspraul> thanks, links are very helpful
2010-08-14 09:37 <wolfspraul> yes that's you. you said that already. but what do you think, out of 100 N900 users, how many use this feature?
2010-08-14 09:37 <wolfspraul> I don't know. I'm like you, never used it and cannot imagine I ever will.
2010-08-14 09:37 <roh> otg isnt THAT helpful (nobody got a otg cable anyways). having host mode is more important. people actually use that.
2010-08-14 09:37 <wolfspraul> I didn't have a TV ever I think.
2010-08-14 09:37 <wolfspraul> it seems there definitely are people who love TV out though... guess not you and me :-)
2010-08-14 09:38 <roh> wolfspraul here in berlin people dont own tvs anymore. (atleast i know nobody with one).. everybody watches tv on his/her pc/notebook from dvb or via ip, if ever. cvbs is dead.
2010-08-14 09:38 <wolfspraul> TV out is one of the wish-list features for Ya NanoNote (the successor of the current one)
2010-08-14 09:39 <alcy> will Ya be priced similarly ? :)
2010-08-14 09:39 <wolfspraul> Ya will be same as Ben, or lower
2010-08-14 09:39 <alcy> awesome
2010-08-14 09:39 <roh> wolfspraul some rf-data-modem is much more important than tv out
2010-08-14 09:39 <wolfspraul> everything else is not hardware business. prices go down.
2010-08-14 09:40 <wolfspraul> alcy: yes but we have to make it there, which is not so easy. We sold about 900 Ben NanoNote today, which is a great result, but very hard to go from there to an improved device. We will try though, and every day important pieces fall in place...
2010-08-14 09:40 <roh> even some weight like the one werner did to keep it upright is more important than tv out ;)
2010-08-14 09:40 <wolfspraul> but I guarantee you prices will go down.
2010-08-14 09:41 <alcy> sounds good :)
2010-08-14 09:41 <wolfspraul> I am in China here, I feel the pressure not only from the software side (Android), or the latest Western hyped hw features, but also from the unbelievable price reductions in ce.
2010-08-14 09:41 <wolfspraul> I just switched my phone to a 20 USD phone.
2010-08-14 09:42 <wolfspraul> prices are falling like a rock I feel, and it's important to follow that momentum.
2010-08-14 09:44 <roh> wolfspraul *g* .. i still use my V3i. just replaced the outter glass recently
2010-08-14 09:48 <roh> waiting for a small smartphone.. or one with decent battery runtime
2010-08-14 09:48 <roh>  .oO(the web of trust is dead... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/open-letter-verizon )
2010-08-14 09:53 <wpwrak> (tv out) tv or composite video ?
2010-08-14 09:54 <wpwrak> roh: since when were certificates issued by "the man" every trustworthy ? :)
2010-08-14 09:56 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: tv I think, but not sure
2010-08-14 09:57 <wpwrak> speaking of the counterweight: wolfgang, want some ? rafa will bring a few to europe, mainly for tuxbrain's heavy metal project, and now that i have molds, i can make more :)
2010-08-14 09:58 <wpwrak> (they're all Pb67Sn33, so not RoHS-friendly. paint varies. still haven't quite decided which one to use.)
2010-08-14 09:59 <wpwrak> (tv out) so that wouldn't work with, say, projectors. most of them don't have a tv tuner.
2010-08-14 10:07 <roh> wpwrak never.. but the whole 'web of trust' itself is failing
2010-08-14 10:07 <roh> https://www.eff.org/files/DefconSSLiverse.pdf is .... interresting
2010-08-14 10:08 <roh> for those who don't believe ;)
2010-08-14 10:09 <wpwrak> roh: why do you call that hierarchical thing a "web" ? i never saw that use. i associate "web of trust" with, say, pgp.
2010-08-14 10:10 <roh> doesnt work well either (pgp trust) .. i think we need to re-do all the trust-metrics we use today
2010-08-14 10:11 <roh> wpwrak https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=df9sn445_206ff3kn9gs
2010-08-14 10:11 <roh> TOFU/POP ;)
2010-08-14 10:12 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: I'm not in Europe, very rarely nowadays. David from Tuxbrain is your man.
2010-08-14 10:12 <wolfspraul> sure I could have one one day for myself, but it's not urgent. Maybe I can get one from David later, no need to send them around.
2010-08-14 10:13 <roh> wpwrak tv-out on mobile devices means 'cvbs' 'composite' 'the yellow cinch thing' on a 3.5mm jack usually
2010-08-14 10:13 <roh> not rf ;)
2010-08-14 10:14 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: ok. i'll give rafa a few more to deposit at tuxbrain for you then :)
2010-08-14 10:14 <wolfspraul> yes, that would be great
2010-08-14 10:14 <wolfspraul> 'a few' - wow
2010-08-14 10:15 <wpwrak> roh: ah, ok :) yes, the yellow chinch things is exactly what i had in my mind :)
2010-08-14 10:16 <tuxbrain2> :) be quick wolfspraul, the BNNTSE is taking form, and it look great, and I even add a REAL TRUE PIECE OF HEAVY METAL for the first to purchase maybe you will end without it :P
2010-08-14 10:16 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: how many shall it be ? < 20, or rafa won't be able to have much luggage beside counterweights :)
2010-08-14 10:17 <roh> wpwrak woulnt 'stamping' a pice of metal out of a sheet be the cheapest way to manufacturing for a counterweight?
2010-08-14 10:17 <tuxbrain2> hehehe I would love see the custom agent looking at raffa luggage and the pieces of metal in the scanner...
2010-08-14 10:17 <roh> i always thought moulding metal is crazy expensive
2010-08-14 10:18 <roh> tuxbrain2 hrr..  'custom made shrapnel'
2010-08-14 10:18 <rafa> tuxbrain2: an easy way to know keycodes on X is if you install xev and run it.
2010-08-14 10:18 <wpwrak> roh: for small quantities it's pretty okay. i can make the mold of wood. lasts for about 20-40 pieces before the wood gets too dry and things break off.
2010-08-14 10:18 <tuxbrain2> rafa thanks, it was already solved :)
2010-08-14 10:19 <rafa> ah.. too late :D
2010-08-14 10:19 <roh> wpwrak uh.. wood? ok.. that doesnt burn up when molten metal flows in?
2010-08-14 10:19 <roh> interresting
2010-08-14 10:20 <tuxbrain2> going again to mounting tables for the den
2010-08-14 10:20 <tuxbrain2> c u
2010-08-14 10:20 <wpwrak> roh: stamping probably needs more pressure than i can produce. the counterweight isn't from a flat sheet but has different depth at different places, following the case's shape
2010-08-14 10:21 <wpwrak> roh: i probably don't have anything hard enough to make a stamp. i could of course try to heat the solder before stamping. but again, heat + pressure = more difficult
2010-08-14 10:21 <rafa> wpwrak: I need some special 100l backpack to put the counterweights?
2010-08-14 10:21 <rafa> :P
2010-08-14 10:21 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: really, 'a few' like 2-3 or so is by far enough for me
2010-08-14 10:21 <wolfspraul> I didn't know you guys already went to mass production...
2010-08-14 10:22 <wpwrak> roh: the solder i use melts around 170/2xx C. wood doesn't burst into flames until reaching the high 200s. so it will just get a little black but won't burn.
2010-08-14 10:23 <wpwrak> rafa: 100 l would weigh about one ton ;-)
2010-08-14 10:23 <rafa> wpwrak: I have already big problems for when I arrive at the spanish airport. South americas are not welcome, you know, and if they have something to say about many pieces of something I will be coming back to argentina in the next plane.
2010-08-14 10:24 <rafa> So better if we do not give them something as reason to not let me in.
2010-08-14 10:24 <tuxbrain2> btw roh lekernel wpwrak , an applause for your dissertation about RF Soft vs Hard driven... Is a pleasure read such high level conversations  (so high level I think I just undertand the 10%, but Is a pleasure to struggle my mind)
2010-08-14 10:25 <tuxbrain2> rafa if you think you might have problems please don't carry them with you, I will import them by courier latter on
2010-08-14 10:25 <wpwrak> rafa: do you think immigration will search your luggage ? if yes, how should the things be packaged/documented for the least amount of trouble ?
2010-08-14 10:25 <wpwrak> rafa: same for customs
2010-08-14 10:26 <tuxbrain2> wpwrak: In spain thing are getting weird with immigration specially form Africa/South America
2010-08-14 10:26 <wpwrak> rafa: want some counterweights for the jlime meeting, too ?
2010-08-14 10:26 <wpwrak> tuxbrain2: i already heard stories ...
2010-08-14 10:27 <wpwrak> i actually wonder if the thingies could actually add credibility to the "travel to business meeting" aspect
2010-08-14 10:28 <tuxbrain2> or pieces of cocaine with strange form factor
2010-08-14 10:28 <wolfspraul> yes, chemically solved in there somehow
2010-08-14 10:29 <wpwrak> ah yes, perhaps one or two for customs to break open could be useful, too
2010-08-14 10:29 <wpwrak> the tendency is that, if you prepare for all eventualities, they won't even look at you :)
2010-08-14 10:30 <rafa> wpwrak: I have not idea. I have read bad and good experiences.. When the Miriam colleague traveled to Spain a month ago, immigration opened hist luggage, drop the whole things inside.. and ask for some no clothes things..
2010-08-14 10:30 <tuxbrain2> wpwrak, seriously, thing here are very very weird
2010-08-14 10:31 <rafa> wpwrak: there is not a manual or rules to follow, so they could ask/do whatever they want.. and it seems, from that I read recently,  no a good idea to try to avoid that
2010-08-14 10:31 <tuxbrain2> Thinking on it again, I preffer to use a courier instead of rafa to bring the counterheights
2010-08-14 10:32 <tuxbrain2> I want to see rafa in a bar not in jail
2010-08-14 10:32 <wpwrak> in a bar, not behind bars :)
2010-08-14 10:33 <wpwrak> okay, your call.
2010-08-14 10:33 <rafa> tuxbrain2: I am okey with bringing the stuff.. Just that I was thinking in a small and tiny package.. if it is something which they will detect easily and because it is not a common piece of a tourist I do not know if they will use that to annoy.
2010-08-14 10:34 <rafa> Here there are a lot of travelers.. with more experiences.. but no south america travelers I guess :)
2010-08-14 10:35 <tuxbrain2> yes sadly the origin of the traveler influence a LOT in the customs dealing
2010-08-14 10:36 <rafa> tuxbrain2: between bars you can pass a beer bottle to me :D
2010-08-14 10:36 <tuxbrain2> Pb is really easy to detect what is no easy is what is inside the Pb , that why I start to not like the idea
2010-08-14 10:39 <tuxbrain2> rafa is your final decition but due they just need an excuse to start annoying , my advice is better don't
2010-08-14 10:39 <tuxbrain2> C U
2010-08-14 10:40 <wolfspraul> take some, learn. otherwise all decisions are fear driven. I think this should not be a big issue.
2010-08-14 10:40 <wolfspraul> I am regularly traveling with tons of stuff.
2010-08-14 10:40 <wolfspraul> better not list it here since it's publicly logged, ha! :-)
2010-08-14 10:41 <wolfspraul> when I go to a 'new' country, well, I sweat a little. but after X times whatever, you realize thousands of people march through there every day...
2010-08-14 10:42 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: drugs, porn, weapons, diamonds, Pu, wikileaks inbox ? :)
2010-08-14 10:42 <rafa> wolfspraul: our concern is because spain is not liking south americans right now, and they are checking the whole trip of them and checking all their bags. To give you just an example:
2010-08-14 10:44 <rafa> wolfspraul: I need to show the passports, the whole trip paid, all the flight tickets, all the room hotels, insurance paid, the whole money in your wallet, yes, like you are reading, and I am sure that if you go to Spain you just show them your passport.
2010-08-14 10:44 <rafa> all the hotel rooms paid*
2010-08-14 10:44 <rafa> you just = you just need
2010-08-14 10:45 <wolfspraul> yes sure, in Western Europe you grow up with the idea that you basically can go to 90% of the world just buying an airplane ticket and flying there.
2010-08-14 10:45 <wolfspraul> take passport and credit card, that's enough
2010-08-14 10:46 <wolfspraul> of course it's not entirely true, big countries especially don't really work like that (Russia, India, China), but that's the attitude
2010-08-14 10:46 <rafa> yes, and credit card is not helping much for south americans.. We need to show the money, still if you think that it is ridiculous
2010-08-14 10:46 <wolfspraul> but this is about lead counterweights now, I still don't see how it could be a problem
2010-08-14 10:46 <wolfspraul> much much stranger things have travelled in hand- and checkin luggage I think
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> I mean why should there be a problem?
2010-08-14 10:47 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: a while ago, all the countries you needed a visa for were considered bad places anyway
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> commercial? no
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> endangered species?
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> weapons of mass destruction? any weapon at all?
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> come on
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> it's nothing
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> drugs, prescription medicine?
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> agricultural products?
2010-08-14 10:47 <rafa> I think that it is something happening this year, because people who have gone to spain years ago did not have those problems like spain are doing this year with south americans
2010-08-14 10:47 <wolfspraul> it's nothing I think
2010-08-14 10:47 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: maybe. drugs, precious metals, drugs, radioactive metals, did i mention drugs ?
2010-08-14 10:48 <wpwrak> s/metals/materials/
2010-08-14 10:48 <wolfspraul> if you cut up your grill into small pieces, stuff it in your check-in luggage to take to Europe, why not
2010-08-14 10:48 <wolfspraul> well, who knows
2010-08-14 10:49 <wolfspraul> that's why I say - first trip - take 20 of them, it's enough
2010-08-14 10:49 <wolfspraul> next time, 50
2010-08-14 10:49 <wolfspraul> then - a while suitcase full, 2000 :-)
2010-08-14 10:49 <wolfspraul> just kidding...
2010-08-14 10:49 <wolfspraul> you will enjoy the trip, I seriously cannot imagine they cause you problems. You are coming from the 'paris of the south', no?
2010-08-14 10:50 <rafa> wolfspraul: I was asking, in the spanish consulate, this: hey, I paid the hotel here in Argentina, before the trip, like you are asking us: what if the hotel is horrible, and we want to change?.. that is not our problem was the answer :P
2010-08-14 10:51 <wolfspraul> yes it's embarassing, I can imagine
2010-08-14 10:51 <wolfspraul> just blog about it, done
2010-08-14 10:51 <wolfspraul> no need to waste energy
2010-08-14 10:51 <wolfspraul> send a link of your blog post to the spanish tourism office
2010-08-14 10:51 <wolfspraul> end of story. enjoy your trip (you still will I'm sure)
2010-08-14 10:52 <wolfspraul> one day they will realize and improve
2010-08-14 10:52 <rafa> yes.. and it is because I have not traveled before as well, so we are a bit afraid with the stories from others.
2010-08-14 10:52 <wolfspraul> yes that won't help.
2010-08-14 10:52 <wolfspraul> but I can tell you - I went to bogota!
2010-08-14 10:52 <rafa> ;-)
2010-08-14 10:52 <rafa> and Buenos AIres!
2010-08-14 10:53 <wolfspraul> and if there is one place people are told horror stories about (say apart from some african places), it's bogota/colombia
2010-08-14 10:53 <wolfspraul> and there may be some truth to these stories, but not that much
2010-08-14 10:53 <wolfspraul> I would go to bogota again in an instant
2010-08-14 10:53 <wolfspraul> a little better prepared than first time :-)
2010-08-14 10:53 <rafa> ah.. yes.. of course.
2010-08-14 10:53 <rafa> :)
2010-08-14 10:53 <wpwrak> mexico is building up quite some reputation, too ...
2010-08-14 10:54 <wolfspraul> I would not want to arrive by myself at the airport though, without having a known person pick me up. not ready for that yet..
2010-08-14 10:54 <wolfspraul> but anyway, I went, and some of this horror stuff turned out to be hot air
2010-08-14 10:54 <wolfspraul> good! :-)
2010-08-14 10:54 <wolfspraul> calling it a day, 'night
2010-08-14 10:55 <lekernel> remembers the welcome signs at Taipei airport saying you get a death penalty if you smugle cannabis
2010-08-14 10:55 <rafa> wolfspraul: venezuela airport scared me a bit when I arrived late one day.. but the next visits I just enjoyned Caracas :)
2010-08-14 10:56 <wpwrak> i would not set foot on any arab soil
2010-08-14 10:57 <tuxbrain2> my uncle was segrsted by las FARC(now is ok don't worry) but yes some truth is there :(
2010-08-14 10:57 <wpwrak> the asias are merely excessive about certain things. the arabs are outright crazy. e.g., that guy who had a poppyseed sandwich on another airport, they found some crumbs on his clothes, and jailed him.
2010-08-14 10:57 <tuxbrain2> segrested->kidnaped
2010-08-14 10:58 <wpwrak> tuxbrain2: lovely :-( did he do anything considered dangerous ?
2010-08-14 10:59 <tuxbrain2> not just workin there
2010-08-14 10:59 <wpwrak> (arab) they also seem to be similarly thorough when it comes to searching for pornography. e.g., go though all your IT equipment.
2010-08-14 11:00 <rafa> tuxbrain2: trying to prepare beta3 with the suggestions/fixes that some of you found.. Do you remember where is the gmu config file for the keys?
2010-08-14 11:00 <zear> i only remind this channel is being logged, not safe to talk about different enthic groups, considering they can find that logs :D
2010-08-14 11:02 <wpwrak> zear: well, i already decided that i won't enter these countries for their border controls, and i don't think anyone would find me insulting their border control sufficiently offensive that they would send some black ops team, so i guess the public logs are okay ;-)
2010-08-14 11:02 <rafa> zear: if you read the whole conversation before your login.. you willl logout scared :D..
2010-08-14 11:03 <zear> wpwrak, who said they won't cross your border? :D
2010-08-14 11:03 <zear> ;P
2010-08-14 11:03 <wpwrak> zear: for the record, i also haven't traveled to the us for quite a while for similar reasons. if a country makes it sufficiently clear that one is not welcome there, i think one should respect their wishes :)
2010-08-14 11:04 <zear> they require us to have visas to usa (i'm polish)
2010-08-14 11:04 <wpwrak> zear: (cross border) that would be the black ops team. naw, for that, i would have to insult their religion or their leaders :)
2010-08-14 11:05 <zear> we are not welcome in their country, but very welcome to help usa out in iraq and afghanistan. Weird logic :P
2010-08-14 11:06 <wpwrak> zear: i'm austrian, but since my passport has the wrong date (there's a window of a few months where the visa waiver doesn't apply), i would need a visa as well
2010-08-14 11:07 <zear> ah, sucky
2010-08-14 11:07 <wpwrak> zear: hey, poles, blacks, indians, ... they all make great cannon fodder. global equality, finally achieved.
2010-08-14 11:07 <zear> true :D
2010-08-14 11:08 <zear> well, i'm not going to usa anyway, don't want my retina in their database
2010-08-14 11:09 <wpwrak> zear: (visa) i had a look at the application form, and upon realizing that it contains questions i wouldn't even be sure i would know the correct answer for (e.g., in which countres have you been and when, within the last ten years ? quite a lot and i sure didn't keep a diary), i decided that any future visits to the us will have to wait until i have to renew my passport anyway
2010-08-14 11:10 <zear> wpwrak, how about the "are you a member of any terrorist group" question? :D
2010-08-14 11:10 <zear> i think i saw something like that in that form
2010-08-14 11:11 <wpwrak> (with all the biometric nonsense, passport renewal has become an ordeal as well. supposedly, it now takes somethine like at least 3 months to issue a new one.)
2010-08-14 11:12 <wpwrak> zear: (questions) ah well, i don't mind these. they're silly but i can answer them. what bothers me are questions where they're likely to know the answer better than i do.
2010-08-14 11:12 <zear> true
2010-08-14 11:44 <qi-bot> [commit] Andres Calderon: fix http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/170ed5a
2010-08-14 12:11 <lekernel> wpwrak, btw you didn't answer my question: who's going to develop the DSP stuff for that GPS?
2010-08-14 12:30 <larsc> "the community" ;)
2010-08-14 12:42 <wpwrak> lekernel: ah, there's a guy who'll do it for a real dsp. not sure what the path from dsp->xburst will be, though
2010-08-14 12:43 <wpwrak> larsc: so yes, unpaid volunteer work, as usual :)
2010-08-14 12:43 <wpwrak> larsc: wolfgang can still teach the chinese a few things about labour cost ;-)
2010-08-14 12:48 <lekernel> amazing, given how hard it is for me to get people interested in flickernoise development
2010-08-14 12:48 <lekernel> or, rather, do useful stuff - most of the time they're interested, but it's just hot air
2010-08-14 13:02 <wpwrak> grmbl. physics isn't an exact science :-( i'm trying to detect whether my counterweights are properly sealed. my idea was to set up a salt water bath, measure the resistance, then insert the counterweight and measure again. instead of a nice constant value, i get some time-dependent curve that isn't impressed by whatever i put into the solution :-(
2010-08-14 13:09 <bartbes> look at this magic: http://loveclub.pastebin.com/z6ugedbz
2010-08-14 14:17 <wpwrak> lekernel: what is flickernoise ?
2010-08-14 14:19 <lekernel> end user software for milkymist
2010-08-14 14:20 <lekernel> I'm super busy with FPGA design and, at some point, PCB
2010-08-14 14:20 <lekernel> => flickernoise didn't advance much :(
2010-08-14 14:21 <lekernel> hopefully I'll be done with FPGA stuff relatively soon and then I can properly take the lead on flickernoise
2010-08-14 14:21 <wpwrak> ah, it's a bit of a niche. that may slow it. sell 900 milkymists, and you'll have your developer community :)
2010-08-14 14:22 <lekernel> well it can run on x86 too
2010-08-14 14:22 <lekernel> and milkymist can be emulated in qemu
2010-08-14 14:22 <lekernel> plus selling 900 boards without software is probably tricky
2010-08-14 14:23 <lekernel> chicken and egg problem
2010-08-14 14:23 <wpwrak> but will it be useful on a pc ? or do you need a milkymist for it to really shine ?
2010-08-14 14:23 <wpwrak> yeah. the ben has it a bit easier there. uses are more readily apparent.
2010-08-14 14:23 <lekernel> right now it's totally worthless on a PC.... then after a while it might have some uses on a PC
2010-08-14 14:24 <wpwrak> ah, so still the same niche. how many milkymists are there in operation at the moment ?
2010-08-14 14:24 <lekernel> that's again a chicken and egg problem
2010-08-14 14:25 <lekernel> right now only 4 are really used
2010-08-14 14:25 <lekernel> very first protos
2010-08-14 14:25 <lekernel> now we're planning a new batch of 20
2010-08-14 14:27 <wpwrak> very small niche then :) would it be feasible to make a board that replaces the current ben's internals ?
2010-08-14 14:27 <lekernel> huh?
2010-08-14 14:27 <wpwrak> (probably with some compromises for the large fpga)
2010-08-14 14:28 <lekernel> well better just wait for the RC2 batch :)
2010-08-14 14:28 <lekernel> but I'm impatient
2010-08-14 14:28 <wpwrak> could you trim the milkymist down to be able to "run" in a ben, talking to keyboard, screen, and usb ?
2010-08-14 14:29 <lekernel> you won't go far, the ben doesn't have graphics acceleration
2010-08-14 14:29 <lekernel> if it's only for running the pure software GUI part then yes
2010-08-14 14:29 <lekernel> just recompile and it should work
2010-08-14 14:30 <lekernel> there's a lot of crap that needs to be redone just because we're not using X
2010-08-14 14:31 <lekernel> like developing a file manager
2010-08-14 14:31 <wpwrak> that may be a step towards spreading it then. after all, wolfgang's long-term plan/hope is to turn this into a free main cpu.
2010-08-14 14:32 <wpwrak> why not just make X work ?
2010-08-14 14:32 <lekernel> slow, bloated, hard to make work
2010-08-14 14:32 <lekernel> incomprehensible protocols
2010-08-14 14:32 <lekernel> see the chapter on X in the UNIX-haters handbook
2010-08-14 14:33 <lekernel> that's basically what I think about X
2010-08-14 14:33 <lekernel> and it's even more true in embedded systems
2010-08-14 14:33 <lekernel> plus on top of that you'd use toolkits like GTK or Qt, which are also slow and hard to port to RTEMS
2010-08-14 14:34 <wpwrak> by the time, you've reinvented it, your stuff will be just as bloated, probably more ;-)
2010-08-14 14:34 <lekernel> oh, sure not
2010-08-14 14:35 <lekernel> single application, single memory space, simple and pragmatic toolkit, not thousands of more or less useful abstraction layers
2010-08-14 14:35 <wpwrak> you're not the first one who thinks X is too heavy. then they do their own thing, and eventually fail. also, just the basics of X don't seem to be too bad. of course, if you want the full feature set, then you get a lot.
2010-08-14 14:35 <lekernel> we're using an existing toolkit called genode fx
2010-08-14 14:36 <lekernel> which isn't anywhere close to failing
2010-08-14 14:36 <lekernel> at least for what I want to do out of it
2010-08-14 14:37 <wpwrak> ah well, if you find something you like better, why not. you just have to put a lot of effort into stuff you don't really care about.
2010-08-14 14:37 <lekernel> and btw I'm not sure using X would even solve the filemanager problem for instance
2010-08-14 14:37 <lekernel> unless you end up porting KDE, Gnome or XFCE which is just crazy
2010-08-14 14:38 <wpwrak> the whole anti-X attempts remind me a bit of the situation about TCP. every once in a while, someone comes up with some bright idea how to make a simpler, faster, leaner TCP. it's always fun to watch how far they get before the things blows up in their face :)
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> oh, come on
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> this is no comparison
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> you can implement TCP in 1000 lines of code
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> if you end up with X
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> you have 3 toolkits to support if you want to re-use applications (gtk, qt, xlib)
2010-08-14 14:39 <lekernel> a super complex protocol and architecture
2010-08-14 14:40 <wpwrak> the days of ATM (asynchronous transfer mode) were particularly fertile for that sort of ideas. countless ideas for making TCP without TCP. none of them ever saw the light of day, beyond some timid lab experiments perhaps.
2010-08-14 14:40 <lekernel> and some people have succeeded at replacing X
2010-08-14 14:40 <lekernel> just compare the UI responsiveness of the iPhone and of the Openmoko
2010-08-14 14:40 <lekernel> this tells you basically everything about X
2010-08-14 14:41 <wpwrak> there's a lot of stuff that only uses xlib or the older libs (xaw, for example). of course, all the new things prefer more abstraction.
2010-08-14 14:41 <lekernel> xaw? hahahaha
2010-08-14 14:41 <lekernel> couldn't you think of something more ugly?
2010-08-14 14:41 <wpwrak> it tells you a lot about picking a graphics accelerator that doens't have negative acceleration ;-)
2010-08-14 14:41 <lekernel> xaw is 1980s graphics
2010-08-14 14:41 <wpwrak> well, i grant you that :)
2010-08-14 14:42 <wpwrak> xaw3d perhaps :)
2010-08-14 14:42 <lekernel> still ugly
2010-08-14 14:42 <wpwrak> you're a hard man to please :)
2010-08-14 14:42 <lekernel> looks like winshit 95
2010-08-14 14:42 <lekernel> in worse
2010-08-14 14:42 <lekernel> and slower
2010-08-14 14:44 <wpwrak> regarding tcp, if may look simple to implement, but understanding the dynamics is pretty hard. but then, there's a good reason for every little bit you find in there.
2010-08-14 14:44 <wpwrak> you can of course make a very basic implementation of tcp, but that won't perform very well
2010-08-14 14:45 <lekernel> http://www.genode-labs.com/products/screenshot-of-the-dope-window-server/image_preview
2010-08-14 14:45 <lekernel> that's how genode fx looks like
2010-08-14 14:45 <lekernel> reasonably good looking, fast, lightweight and easy to port
2010-08-14 14:45 <wpwrak> looks pretty nice
2010-08-14 14:45 <lekernel> one drawback: very little application support, and many widgets are missing
2010-08-14 14:46 <lekernel> http://www.genode-labs.com/products/screenshot-of-the-dope-window-server
2010-08-14 14:46 <lekernel> quite nothing like the xaw crap
2010-08-14 14:47 <lekernel> this thing was developed by hardcore amiga demosceners, not bearded unix hippies
2010-08-14 14:48 <wpwrak> well, if pretty buttons is all you desire, you could probably do this on top of xlib in a day, too :) the advantage would be that you'd be compatible with all the other applications that you don't care enough about to reimplement, but that are still desirable to have.
2010-08-14 14:48 <wpwrak> or just bite the bullent, make an X server, then keep on hacking on your own thing. that way, you can increase the user base of milkymist a bit.
2010-08-14 14:49 <lekernel> or just have the balls to kick X out just like Apple did
2010-08-14 14:49 <lekernel> X is a piece of junk
2010-08-14 14:49 <lekernel> face it
2010-08-14 14:49 <wpwrak> ah, your zeal remembered me a bit of the amiga days :)
2010-08-14 14:49 <lekernel> Macintosh users hate X applications
2010-08-14 14:50 <lekernel> and I understand their arguments
2010-08-14 14:50 <wpwrak> x does the job and there's a ton of stuff i'd like if i didn't have x.
2010-08-14 14:50 <wpwrak> s/like/lose/
2010-08-14 14:50 <wpwrak> quite a typo :)
2010-08-14 14:51 <lekernel> X does the job? again, compare the UI of Openmoko and iPhone :)
2010-08-14 14:51 <wpwrak> can the genode fx api be used to run things on top of X ? even if slowly ?
2010-08-14 14:51 <lekernel> and how nice scrolling works on the two
2010-08-14 14:52 <lekernel> when I tested it you have something like a 0.5s delay between your finger and the screen on the moko
2010-08-14 14:52 <lekernel> it's awful
2010-08-14 14:53 <wpwrak> the moko gui's problems have many sources. x is the very least of the worries. trust me on that. i've been there :(
2010-08-14 14:53 <lekernel> then why does every handheld using X seems to have the same problems?
2010-08-14 14:53 <lekernel> and those who don't use X, like android and iphone, don't have the problem either?
2010-08-14 14:53 <lekernel> sounds like a big coincidence
2010-08-14 14:53 <wpwrak> maybe it just is
2010-08-14 14:54 <lekernel> especially when I look at the output of "top" showing the X server in a PC
2010-08-14 14:54 <lekernel> and how the X junky protocol works
2010-08-14 14:54 <lekernel> (or does not)
2010-08-14 14:55 <wpwrak> x on top usually means some flash nonsense looping in your web browser :-(
2010-08-14 14:55 <lekernel> btw: yes, you can somehow run genode fx apps on X... right now all in the same X windows
2010-08-14 14:56 <lekernel> I don't think it's very difficult to map each genode fx window to a new X window
2010-08-14 14:56 <wpwrak> (genode on x) great. that will make it a bit easier for your community.
2010-08-14 14:56 <lekernel> actually it has a SDL port
2010-08-14 14:56 <lekernel> so you can run on X, and directly on the Linux framebuffer, etc.
2010-08-14 14:57 <wpwrak> good. so people don't have to give up their regular environment for development.
2010-08-14 14:57 <lekernel> oh, definitely not
2010-08-14 14:58 <lekernel> there aren't many technical barriers to start flickernoise development
2010-08-14 14:59 <lekernel> just install sdl headers, check out the sources, compile genode fx then flickernoise, and you're done
2010-08-14 14:59 <lekernel> the problem is right now there's little actual use reinventing many wheels on the PC platform
2010-08-14 14:59 <lekernel> so this is probably de-motivational (imo)
2010-08-14 15:00 <lekernel> but having to choose between rewriting a file manager and a X server + porting GTK/Qt/Xlib, I pick the first
2010-08-14 15:01 <wpwrak> yup, definitely. projects that don't scratch a person's itch are unlikely to get that person involved.
2010-08-14 15:01 <wpwrak> would porting xlib and such really so hard ?
2010-08-14 15:01 <lekernel> I don't want X, period :)
2010-08-14 15:02 <wpwrak> also, the x server doesn't seem to be too much of a problem. we had one pretty quickly for the glamo. also, you can start with just a dumb frame buffer and add acceleration later. that way, you have a usable result every once in a while.
2010-08-14 15:02 <lekernel> xlib may not be the hardest part (and still, I'm not so sure given the horrible build scripts of the Xorg distribution) but writing the X server will definitely be a headache
2010-08-14 15:02 <lekernel> oh, and my board as 32MB flash
2010-08-14 15:02 <lekernel> Genode FX is 100K approximately
2010-08-14 15:03 <wpwrak> ah well, if milkymist is successful, then someone will one day put X on it. then you can compare the two :)
2010-08-14 15:03 <lekernel> Qt+GTK+Xlib+X isn't 100K
2010-08-14 15:03 <lekernel> it's more 200MB
2010-08-14 15:04 <lekernel> for doing about the same thing, but in a slower, more CPU intensive and less responsive way
2010-08-14 15:04 <wpwrak> i think the actual display driver can be pretty small. i don't think the one for the glamo had much more than 1000 lines.
2010-08-14 15:04 <lekernel> and btw my system runs RTEMS and does not have a MMU
2010-08-14 15:04 <lekernel> I'm not sure Xorg would work in these conditions
2010-08-14 15:04 <wpwrak> rtems ?
2010-08-14 15:05 <lekernel> yeah, a real time embedded OS
2010-08-14 15:05 <wpwrak> not sure whether it needs an mmu
2010-08-14 15:05 <lekernel> POSIX compliant, single process
2010-08-14 15:05 <lekernel> multi thread
2010-08-14 15:05 <wpwrak> ah, okay. hmm. single process would be an issue.
2010-08-14 15:06 <lekernel> kicked uClinux away after banging my head on my desk about the subtle and undocumented GNUtarded interaction between Binutils and the nommu FDPIC executable loader
2010-08-14 15:07 <wpwrak> ah ? what's the problem there ?
2010-08-14 15:08 <lekernel> making the oh-so-awfully-coded Binutils generate properly relocatable binaries, then making uClibc and the kernel relocate them
2010-08-14 15:08 <lekernel> this was an unneccessary problem anyway, since I only need one process after all
2010-08-14 15:08 <lekernel> so RTEMS is perfect
2010-08-14 15:09 <lekernel> and it's also easier to write RTEMS drivers than to write drivers for the Linux kernel
2010-08-14 15:10 <lekernel> the all-function-pointer approach makes it horribly hard to debug and understand, if they want to do object programming they should use C++... but, well, that's a different troll :)
2010-08-14 15:10 <wpwrak> so you have your own compiler as well ?
2010-08-14 15:10 <lekernel> it's a modified GCC
2010-08-14 15:10 <lekernel> well now it's been merged in 4.5+
2010-08-14 15:10 <wpwrak> phew :)
2010-08-14 15:11 <lekernel> but with a broken linux executable generator
2010-08-14 15:11 <lekernel> anyway, it gets the job done on rtems
2010-08-14 15:12 <wpwrak> then add an mmu and port linux. you'll learn to like the function pointers :)
2010-08-14 15:12 <lekernel> fuck that
2010-08-14 15:12 <lekernel> again it's easier to write a file manager for genode fx
2010-08-14 15:13 <lekernel> and the mmu is not needed for what i'm doing
2010-08-14 15:13 <lekernel> neither is Linux
2010-08-14 15:13 <lekernel> keep it simple
2010-08-14 15:14 <lekernel> and Linux is slower than RTEMS, too
2010-08-14 15:14 <wpwrak> kepping it compatible may be simpler in the long run :)
2010-08-14 15:14 <lekernel> RTEMS is also a pretty compliant and widespread OS (ok, not as much as Linux)...
2010-08-14 15:14 <lekernel> a lot of Linux libs compile on it, as long as they don't use the GNU Autocrap system
2010-08-14 15:15 <wpwrak> heh, for once, that's a hatred we share
2010-08-14 15:16 <wpwrak> enjoys writing makefiles
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> same here :)
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> but well
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> if someone wants linux and mmu
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> they just make it, heh :)
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> then I have additional developers :p
2010-08-14 15:16 <lekernel> I can't do everything on my own
2010-08-14 15:17 <lekernel> RTEMS + genode fx is the fastest and technically better route to what I want to do
2010-08-14 15:18 <lekernel> and btw it already works today, on the hardware
2010-08-14 15:18 <lekernel> with vga out, but no input devices yet... USB (for mice and keyboards) is horribly complicated too
2010-08-14 15:18 <wpwrak> what's the actual objective by the way ? it seems rather unusual to design your own cpu just to make a vj station.
2010-08-14 15:19 <lekernel> that's why I have no time for things like a MMU
2010-08-14 15:19 <lekernel> well, once I have that device out, then maybe this can start MMU projects
2010-08-14 15:19 <wpwrak> usb can be a bit of a challenge, yes. to which level have you made it so far ?
2010-08-14 15:20 <lekernel> the low level part (serial transmissions) works, in both low and full speed
2010-08-14 15:20 <lekernel> the protocol is handled by an AVR softcore, the design of which is done and allows some transfers to be made
2010-08-14 15:21 <lekernel> but still has some bugs... i'll work on exhaustive test benches pretty soon
2010-08-14 15:21 <lekernel> then one would need to implement OHCI as a C program for the AVR
2010-08-14 15:21 <wpwrak> sounds quite good then. have you found a way to sniff the wire ?
2010-08-14 15:21 <lekernel> yeah, I bought a USB analyzer
2010-08-14 15:21 <lekernel> couldn't do without
2010-08-14 15:22 <wpwrak> yup, that helps
2010-08-14 15:22 <lekernel> unsurprisingly enough the opencores USB serial engine was full of bugs
2010-08-14 15:22 <lekernel> so I had to redesign that as well
2010-08-14 15:22 <wpwrak> i debugged my little usb stack on the silabs mcu with a scope. that doesn't go quite as far as an analyzer, though.
2010-08-14 15:22 <lekernel> the amount of junk at opencores never ceases to amaze me
2010-08-14 15:22 <wpwrak> *grin*
2010-08-14 15:24 <lekernel> so, well, right now the USB core reads the device descriptor of full and low speed devices and printf's it out
2010-08-14 15:24 <lekernel> some other C programs crash or otherwise fail because of AVR softcore bugs
2010-08-14 15:24 <wpwrak> ;-)
2010-08-14 15:24 <lekernel> once those bugs are fixed, the last step is to write that ohci software implementation
2010-08-14 15:25 <wpwrak> "avr softcore" = V-USB ?
2010-08-14 15:25 <lekernel> no, I designed my own softcore which is put inside the fpgza
2010-08-14 15:25 <lekernel> and talks to the usb serial engine, also put into the fpga
2010-08-14 15:25 <lekernel> I can't handle the serial transmission on the AVR too because I need full-speed too
2010-08-14 15:25 <lekernel> and the AVR is too slow for that
2010-08-14 15:26 <lekernel> so I assisted it with a small "UART"
2010-08-14 15:26 <wpwrak> makes sense
2010-08-14 15:26 <wpwrak> you seem to have a lot of space in that fpga
2010-08-14 15:26 <lekernel> no, I just don't use bloated Opencores designs
2010-08-14 15:27 <wpwrak> i mean, you have lots of features in there. how crowded is it by now ?
2010-08-14 15:27 <lekernel> right now I'm only using 70% of it with a SoC that has almost everything planned (merely only bugfixing is needed now)
2010-08-14 15:28 <wpwrak> btw, nobody ever answered my question about the cpld spi conversion :-(
2010-08-14 15:28 <lekernel> this leaves plenty of space for things like a MMU, if people are interested in those things
2010-08-14 15:28 <wpwrak> (on the developer now discussion list)
2010-08-14 15:28 <wpwrak> kewl. maybe even some cache ;-)
2010-08-14 15:29 <wpwrak> or some DSP instructions, to annoy roh a little :)
2010-08-14 15:29 <lekernel> there is already 2 levels of cache
2010-08-14 15:29 <lekernel> but growing them bigger causes timing problems
2010-08-14 15:29 <wpwrak> (2 levels) not bad !
2010-08-14 15:29 <wpwrak> wb ?
2010-08-14 15:30 <lekernel> or you'd have to pipeline them on more stages... and/or add a 3rd level... but this means more design work
2010-08-14 15:30 <lekernel> wishbone?
2010-08-14 15:30 <lekernel> partly
2010-08-14 15:30 <lekernel> I'm using 3 different buses
2010-08-14 15:30 <wpwrak> no, writeback.
2010-08-14 15:30 <lekernel> L1 is write through, L2 is write back
2010-08-14 15:30 <wpwrak> good
2010-08-14 15:31 <lekernel> and critical word first, too
2010-08-14 15:31 <wpwrak> 3rd level seems a bit excessive for such a "small" cpu.
2010-08-14 15:31 <lekernel> I don't know
2010-08-14 15:31 <lekernel> the way to know is to sniff the internal buses
2010-08-14 15:31 <lekernel> :)
2010-08-14 15:31 <lekernel> already did that on the DRAM bus btw :)
2010-08-14 15:32 <lekernel> and there's more than a CPU
2010-08-14 15:32 <lekernel> many peripherals have DMA
2010-08-14 15:32 <lekernel> there's even a graphics pipeline which has its own cache directly connected to the DRAM
2010-08-14 15:33 <wpwrak> can peripherals use the cache(s) ?
2010-08-14 15:35 <wpwrak> e.g., you set up some packet in cache, then fire off a peripheral. never needs to touch dram.
2010-08-14 15:35 <lekernel> most DMAs (ie those which transfer small data with eg the CPU) are done through the L2
2010-08-14 15:36 <wpwrak> very good
2010-08-14 15:36 <lekernel> DRAM-direct DMAs are done for bulky transfers like VGA screen refreshes
2010-08-14 15:36 <lekernel> http://www.milkymist.org/thesis/thesis.pdf
2010-08-14 15:36 <wpwrak> yup, doesn't make sense for everything
2010-08-14 15:37 <lekernel> they're also L2-coherent, so the CPU doesn't need to care about the cache (L1 is write through) when writing to the framebuffer
2010-08-14 15:38 <wpwrak> perfect. one worry and annoyance less.
2010-08-14 15:41 <wpwrak> oh, you even have an fpu. the days of arm are counted :)
2010-08-14 15:42 <lekernel> it's not a traditional FPU, which would have been too slow
2010-08-14 15:42 <lekernel> it's a floating point VLIW coprocessor
2010-08-14 15:43 <lekernel> puts out about 75MFlops at 100MHz on real cases using the compiler described in the thesis
2010-08-14 15:44 <lekernel> it's not fully IEEE 754 compliant either
2010-08-14 15:44 <lekernel> I only use it for graphics transformations basically, so it's not a big issue if it's not super precise
2010-08-14 15:45 <lekernel> and it saves hardware resources and especially design time
2010-08-14 15:45 <lekernel> which is even more precious than hardware resources
2010-08-14 15:45 <wpwrak> very nice. would ieee 754 be possible ?
2010-08-14 15:45 <lekernel> yeah
2010-08-14 15:45 <lekernel> definitely
2010-08-14 15:45 <lekernel> but it's like the MMU: not needed => kick it away
2010-08-14 15:45 <wpwrak> kewl. that would also help.
2010-08-14 15:46 <lekernel> it's such a big project you can't spend time on unneeded details
2010-08-14 15:46 <wpwrak> well, to take over the main cpu, you need these things :)
2010-08-14 15:46 <lekernel> later
2010-08-14 15:46 <lekernel> v1.0 out first, then optimizations
2010-08-14 15:46 <wpwrak> yup. one step at a time :)
2010-08-14 15:46 <lekernel> plus the v1.0 being out may help a lot attracting more developers
2010-08-14 15:47 <wpwrak> i still wonder if it wouldn't make sense to put this into a more common form factor. e.g., inside a ben.
2010-08-14 15:47 <wpwrak> that may help to attract people more quickly
2010-08-14 15:48 <lekernel> there are so many chicken-and-egg problems in that project that you need to stick to the "v1.0 out first" paradigm
2010-08-14 15:48 <wpwrak> of course, you may prefer not to have too many folks rush in
2010-08-14 15:48 <lekernel> depends which folks
2010-08-14 15:48 <lekernel> if it's the annoying luser type, then no
2010-08-14 15:48 <wpwrak> v1.0 seems to be soonish, no ?
2010-08-14 15:48 <wpwrak> ;-)
2010-08-14 15:48 <lekernel> if it's talented FPGA or software developers, they're most welcome
2010-08-14 15:48 <wpwrak> you always get a bit of a mix
2010-08-14 15:49 <wpwrak> and it takes time to organize the crowd, no matter how good they are
2010-08-14 15:49 <lekernel> but I think it's easier to ignore lusers than to motivate talented people, so more folks should be cool :)
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> v1.0 should be soonish for the hardware, but not the software
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> flickernoise development will probably take at least an additional 6 months or so
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> before it can be really end-user
2010-08-14 15:52 <wpwrak> btw, what's the state of the art on open fpga synthesis ? i find the dependency on proprietary tools rather galling. a while ago, nothing better than some ancient PAL had a publicly documented fuse map. now, there are the psoc3 with a bit of a cpld inside, which come with full documentation. still nothing big, though.
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> there's nothing
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> well there's ulogic (reverse engineering effort)
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> of the bitstream format
2010-08-14 15:52 <lekernel> but it's not the hard part
2010-08-14 15:53 <wpwrak> it's the enabler for the rest
2010-08-14 15:53 <lekernel> the hard part is the HDL->netlist "conversion"
2010-08-14 15:53 <lekernel> for which all docs are available, ironically
2010-08-14 15:53 <lekernel> the closed bitstream is an excuse imo
2010-08-14 15:53 <wpwrak> isn't there some synthesis tool for asics ? from somewhere in france
2010-08-14 15:54 <lekernel> you look a lot more smarter by saying "oh, we're poor developers who don't have fpga specs, we can't do anything!!! bad, evil manufacturers!!!"
2010-08-14 15:54 <lekernel> than by saying "I have no fucking idea how to write a logic synthesis program"
2010-08-14 15:54 <lekernel> yeah, there's Alliance
2010-08-14 15:54 <lekernel> they royally fucked up on this one
2010-08-14 15:54 <wpwrak> (excuse) i don't know. it;s something that always kept me from touching cplds or fpgas
2010-08-14 15:55 <lekernel> it's poorly coded, and, above all, defective by design
2010-08-14 15:55 <wpwrak> i wouldn't mind having a poor synthesis tool, as long as it does give me the freedom
2010-08-14 15:55 <lekernel> the approach to synthesis they have is never going to yield good results (ie comparable to those of the proprietary tools)
2010-08-14 15:55 <lekernel> plus a lot of features are missing
2010-08-14 15:55 <wpwrak> (poor tool) to get started, of course. things like milkymist are a different matter.
2010-08-14 15:55 <lekernel> which makes it totally counterproductive and incompatible with other (and better) EDA methodologies
2010-08-14 15:56 <wpwrak> ah, pity
2010-08-14 15:57 <wpwrak> i think an open bitstream could provide a better incentive for people to do some work in these areas. if you already know that you'll be blocked by the bitstream, that's not nice.
2010-08-14 15:57 <lekernel> it's not even hard to reverse engineer
2010-08-14 15:58 <lekernel> xilinx provides a GUI to manipulate individual FPGA cells
2010-08-14 15:58 <lekernel> then it's only a matter of knowing which button flips which bits
2010-08-14 15:58 <lekernel> seriously
2010-08-14 15:58 <wpwrak> is the behaviour of the fuses documented ? (without NDA)
2010-08-14 15:58 <wpwrak> that sounds good
2010-08-14 15:59 <wpwrak> flip a bit, diff the streams :)
2010-08-14 15:59 <lekernel> and for the timing analyzer, timing tables from the binary database are nicely printed out in human readable form by a tool called partgen (iirc)
2010-08-14 15:59 <lekernel> s/partgen/speedprint
2010-08-14 15:59 <lekernel> what fuses? FPGAs are SRAM
2010-08-14 16:00 <lekernel> oh and there's also a lot of bitstream format documented by xilinx too
2010-08-14 16:00 <lekernel> frame format, CRCs, so you won't even to reverse engineer this hard part
2010-08-14 16:01 <lekernel> seriously people who use the closed bitstream format excuse are just incompetent and/or slackers
2010-08-14 16:01 <wpwrak> ulogic looks quite encouraging
2010-08-14 16:01 <wpwrak> don't you still call it the "fuse map" on fpgas ?
2010-08-14 16:01 <lekernel> huh? no, never heard that word
2010-08-14 16:02 <lekernel> that's for PALs, no?
2010-08-14 16:02 <lekernel> FPGAs have a very different architecture than PALs
2010-08-14 16:02 <wpwrak> the bitstream documentation only tells you how to transmit the stuff, not what's inside.
2010-08-14 16:03 <lekernel> yeah, and for what's inside you just have to use the xilinx editor and see what changes what :)
2010-08-14 16:03 <wpwrak> i think i've seen it at least for cplds. not sure about fpgas.
2010-08-14 16:03 <lekernel> fpga's are 100% SRAM, there's no fuse or flash whatsoever
2010-08-14 16:03 <wpwrak> fpgas are a bit too big and pricy for my taste :) at least for "playing"
2010-08-14 16:03 <lekernel> even for parts that support encryption, you need a backup battery
2010-08-14 16:04 <lekernel> on the PCB
2010-08-14 16:04 <tuxbrain2> rafa: /home/root/music/gmuinput.nanonote.conf
2010-08-14 16:04 <tuxbrain2> Button-75=280,Vol+
2010-08-14 16:05 <tuxbrain2> Button-76=281,Vol-
2010-08-14 16:05 <wpwrak> yes, i know that fpgas have no persistent state, while cplds do. but don't they have more or less the same architecture for the rest ?
2010-08-14 16:07 <lekernel> no
2010-08-14 16:07 <lekernel> there's nothing in common between the cpld and fpga architectures
2010-08-14 16:08 <wpwrak> ah, interesting
2010-08-14 16:08 <lekernel> btw fpga's aren't so pricey, the one i'm using in milkymist is $50 in single quantities
2010-08-14 16:08 <lekernel> and 2 years ago avnet released a $49 devkit
2010-08-14 16:09 <wpwrak> i call that costly :) for playing, i want to be able to go through a lot of chips. put them in different circuits. get a feeling for them.
2010-08-14 16:09 <wpwrak> maybe make ten units of something useful.
2010-08-14 16:09 <wpwrak> they're also difficult to hand-solder :)
2010-08-14 16:16 <lekernel> http://elm-chan.org/docs/wire/wiring_e.html
2010-08-14 16:16 <lekernel> just dare doing it :
2010-08-14 16:16 <lekernel> :)
2010-08-14 16:17 <lekernel> if you're patient too ...otherwise you can also make a pcb and use the solder wick method (which I prefer because it's fast)
2010-08-14 16:17 <lekernel> a lot of fpga's are still available in qfp that you can solder with these techniques
2010-08-14 16:17 <wpwrak> ;-)) naw, i make my own pcbs. up to qfn is okay. bga is where i admit defeat.
2010-08-14 16:18 <lekernel> yeah, diy bga isn't easy
2010-08-14 16:18 <wpwrak> (haven't actually tried, though. i do have a toaster oven in my lab :)
2010-08-14 16:18 <lekernel> I've seen some people doing it but it's tricky
2010-08-14 16:18 <lekernel> and you need a multilayer pcb in many cases
2010-08-14 16:19 <lekernel> anyway, there are interesting fpgas in more friendly qfp
2010-08-14 16:19 <wpwrak> yup. that's part of the problem. also debugging a badly soldered bga should be a pain.
2010-08-14 16:19 <lekernel> there's xray control for that
2010-08-14 16:19 <lekernel> could be fun to make a diy xray machine too :)
2010-08-14 16:20 <lekernel> making xrays isn't actually difficult: old CRT high voltage power supply (on which the AC output is accessible), voltage doublers, and valve
2010-08-14 16:20 <wpwrak> or just hang out near a sports arena and ask people who break something and need to get an xray to take a board with them ;-)
2010-08-14 16:20 <lekernel> what's difficult is safety and image resolution
2010-08-14 16:20 <wpwrak> yes :)
2010-08-14 16:21 <wpwrak> maybe once your life expectancy is only a few years and any cancer you may add won't kill you before the rest :)
2010-08-14 16:21 <lekernel> haha
2010-08-14 16:21 <lekernel> well at some point I might dare doing it :)
2010-08-14 16:21 <lekernel> but with a proper dosimeter
2010-08-14 16:22 <lekernel> and lots of lead
2010-08-14 16:22 <wpwrak> after you finish v2.0 with the mmu please :)
2010-08-14 16:25 <wpwrak> (milkymist) pretty impressive project for "just" an MSc. are you now continuing this towards a PhD ?
2010-08-14 16:25 <lekernel> nope
2010-08-14 16:25 <lekernel> I don't actually know what i'll be doing as PhD, and if I'll do a PhD at all
2010-08-14 16:26 <lekernel> possible subjects I'm thinking about are developing an open source synthesis tool
2010-08-14 16:26 <wpwrak> phd is fun. you get to play around, travel, and earn money :)
2010-08-14 16:26 <wpwrak> that would be excellent ! :)
2010-08-14 16:26 <lekernel> and research on automated FPGA bitstream reverse engineering to find out if companies use GPL'd cores without releasing the sources
2010-08-14 16:26 <wpwrak> ;-))))
2010-08-14 16:27 <lekernel> the problem is both projects are difficult and will slow down MM development
2010-08-14 16:27 <wpwrak> use MM as your test case for synthesis
2010-08-14 16:27 <lekernel> that's was one of the initial goals of MM actually
2010-08-14 16:27 <wpwrak> perfect then
2010-08-14 16:28 <lekernel> get me into fpga development and provide a test case/verilog subset for a synthesis tool
2010-08-14 16:29 <wpwrak> it's quite normal for a phd to involve "non-essential" projects. in your case, mm would even fit
2010-08-14 16:29 <lekernel> maybe mm soc 2.0 as phd ;)
2010-08-14 16:29 <lekernel> but it includes a variety of subjects
2010-08-14 16:30 <wpwrak> very broad may be a problem
2010-08-14 16:30 <lekernel> also i need to find a university with a relaxed copyright policy, which isn't easy in every country it seems
2010-08-14 16:31 <lekernel> the nice thing with KTH is you retain copyright on all your work, so I could easily do MM as thesis without much impact on the project; it's not the case everywhere
2010-08-14 16:32 <wpwrak> i had no problems with that at epfl. for papers, we used technical reports as a work-around. anything else was gpl or such anyway.
2010-08-14 16:33 <wpwrak> so even if the university has the copyright, it doesn't matter much.
2010-08-14 16:35 <wpwrak> the only real limitation this creates is that can't just give a project to harald, for his gpl-violations ammunition stash
2010-08-14 16:36 <lekernel> I'd have a little preference for the logic synthesis tool, it's clearer in my mind what needs to be done and I'm more certain to succeed
2010-08-14 16:36 <lekernel> so I have better control on timing and could work on that while mitigating the impact on MM development
2010-08-14 16:37 <wpwrak> sounds great. it's also something that's quite obviously missing in the world.
2010-08-14 16:37 <lekernel> otoh enforcing GPL in FPGA design too is much needed too imo
2010-08-14 16:37 <lekernel> and also gives nice ammunition to Harald
2010-08-14 16:37 <wpwrak> you can do that later :)
2010-08-14 16:37 <lekernel> I'm already suspecting two companies of using my code in proprietary FPGA designs
2010-08-14 16:37 <lekernel> yes
2010-08-14 16:38 <wpwrak> what are the hints ?
2010-08-14 16:38 <roh> i wonder how much commercial stuff gets stolen, if already so much opensource hdl designs seem to be (ab)used
2010-08-14 16:39 <roh> s/stolen/used
2010-08-14 16:39 <wpwrak> (that is, if you don't mind putting suggestions for avoiding your attention on this publicly logged channel)
2010-08-14 16:39 <wpwrak> roh: the best theft prevention still seems to be to encourage people to take it :)
2010-08-14 16:40 <wpwrak> roh: that makes them suspicious and fearful
2010-08-14 16:41 <wpwrak> roh: e.g., LILO was ported only once, to BeeOS (i think they renamed it to "BILO"), even though i put it under a BSD license
2010-08-14 16:41 <wpwrak> or BeOS
2010-08-14 16:45 <wpwrak> roh: then, afaik, nothing ever came out of tcp connection passing. maybe they think i've patented it :)
2010-08-14 16:50 <lekernel> wpwrak, well, basically asking if they can use it in their proprietary stuff, getting an answer saying they have to pay me or opensource the complete design, and then no contact
2010-08-14 16:51 <wpwrak> lekernel: and soon thereafter, there's a product with an fpga. i see. would indeed nice to test this in court.
2010-08-14 16:52 <lekernel> with all the "FPGA bitstream formats are impenetrable" bullshit around, there isn't a lot of incentive for them to pay
2010-08-14 16:52 <lekernel> if there's a phd report + a tool that proves the opposite, this gives you quite a few tools to fight back
2010-08-14 16:53 <roh> :)
2010-08-14 16:53 <roh> for sure
2010-08-14 16:54 <wpwrak> lekernel: plus some interesting violations to open :)
2010-08-14 16:55 <wpwrak> lekernel: or, considering that they may have mixed it with closed IP that's not theirs to release, make you a rich man :)
2010-08-14 16:57 <wpwrak> roh: the ssl observatory slides are nice. not surprising, though. make something sufficiently complex and obscure and people will screw up.
2010-08-14 16:59 <lekernel> oh, you wrote LILO?
2010-08-14 16:59 <lekernel> nice :)
2010-08-14 16:59 <lekernel> it was my first linux bootloader back in 1999
2010-08-14 17:03 <wpwrak> whee ! that was already towards the end of its days of glory
2010-08-14 17:08 <wpwrak> regarding the MM developer community: i wonder if people might be fooled by the project being presented as a VJ station. you don't quite expect to find a novel SoC there.
2010-08-14 17:09 <lekernel> well I put the SoC forward in all communication material
2010-08-14 17:10 <lekernel> and the project is well represented on opencores too
2010-08-14 17:10 <lekernel> even if most of opencores is trash, that's where people go to when looking for open source hdl
2010-08-14 17:11 <wpwrak> okay, so fpga people will find it then. but how about software developers ?
2010-08-14 17:11 <lekernel> mh
2010-08-14 17:11 <lekernel> what are the communities of embedded developers you know of?
2010-08-14 17:12 <wpwrak> no idea :) they're kinda everywhere
2010-08-14 17:13 <wpwrak> there are a few well-known projects, but that doesn't mean that anyone interested in such things will ever visit one of them for more than a quick glance
2010-08-14 17:13 <wpwrak> interested as a developer
2010-08-14 17:17 <wpwrak> has slashdot reported on milkymist yet ? that tends to spread the message
2010-08-14 17:19 <lekernel> I tried posting a news a year ago but it got rejected
2010-08-14 17:19 <lekernel> I similarly got kicked out of the google summer of code this year
2010-08-14 17:19 <wpwrak> blargh :-(
2010-08-14 17:20 <lekernel> otoh I got posted on make magazine and made a couple of nice conferences (26C3, LSM)
2010-08-14 17:20 <lekernel> and others
2010-08-14 17:21 <wpwrak> 26c3 gets good coverage. but it's easy to disappear in the sheer amount of things that get reported.
2010-08-14 17:21 <lekernel> the 26C3 presentation sucked a bit, it was the first time I was in front of such a big audience and I was stressed out
2010-08-14 17:21 <lekernel> and I'm not sure everyone got what open source SoCs were about, people were actually pretty unfamiliar with the topic
2010-08-14 17:21 <lekernel> the LSM presentation was much better
2010-08-14 17:21 <lekernel> but fewer people and coverage
2010-08-14 17:22 <lekernel> I'll submit a software development workshop on MM platform for the 27C3 I think :)
2010-08-14 17:23 <lekernel> then i'll be sure everyone will get it's a SoC
2010-08-14 17:24 <wpwrak> LSM ... Libre Software Meeting, kinda regional ?
2010-08-14 17:25 <wpwrak> (sw workshop) ;-)
2010-08-14 17:25 <lekernel> www.rmll.info
2010-08-14 17:25 <lekernel> not regional, but french (even though they advertise it as worldwide)
2010-08-14 17:26 <wpwrak> okay, quelques regions ;-)
2010-08-14 17:34 <wpwrak> interesting. a tank of salt water with two electrodes measuring resistance (with a multimeter) is an excellent vibration sensor
2010-08-14 17:36 <wpwrak> and at the same time, it's perfectly useless for measuring the insertion of a conductive object. that much about my clever idea for detecting defects in the coating of the counterweight :-(
2010-08-14 17:38 <lekernel> iirc there's also a nice AC component you can get on the electrodes
2010-08-14 17:38 <lekernel> in the audio range
2010-08-14 17:38 <lekernel> i've seen an artist using it to make weird music :)
2010-08-14 17:39 <lekernel> not sure it happens with all metals and salts, but it definitely does with some
2010-08-14 17:39 <lekernel> probably depends on current, voltage and other factors too
2010-08-14 17:45 <wpwrak> kewl. i have to try that some day :)
2010-08-14 17:45 <wpwrak> maybe you can even tune it by shaking the water :)
2010-08-14 17:46 <wpwrak> "shake it, baby !"
2010-08-14 18:05 <wpwrak> hmm, ulogic looks abandoned. no changes in the last 3 years :-(
2010-08-14 18:07 <lekernel> yeah, I know the guys behind it
2010-08-14 18:07 <lekernel> they're a bit of the "overwhelmed by job" type :(
2010-08-14 18:13 <wpwrak> you mean "job" as in "real work" ?
2010-08-14 18:14 <lekernel> job as in "doing engineering work for a big company you have no control over", not sure if that's what you call "real work"
2010-08-14 18:14 <wpwrak> you get money but it sucks. sounds like "real work" :)
2010-08-14 18:15 <wpwrak> well, once you've taken over arm's empire, you can hire them to finish their work :)
2010-08-14 20:17 <qi-bot> [commit] Mirko Vogt: [mandoc]: mark as broken, as it does not compile http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/273bf80
2010-08-14 20:17 <qi-bot> [commit] Mirko Vogt: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/272a628
2010-08-14 21:39 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: cam/: scripts for cutting the PCB (just the board - traces are etched) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2cb3f18
2010-08-14 22:59 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Typo causing silent failure. $z would be Perl, but this is Python. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9bf969e
2010-08-14 22:59 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Typo causing silent failure: forgot the semicolon, so "doit" thought these http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/12ebe2c
2010-08-14 23:01 <wpwrak> grr. i reverted that one.