2010-08-11 01:06 <kyak> 3 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/filedialog.cpp.rej
2010-08-11 01:06 <kyak> patching file src/gmenu2x.cpp
2010-08-11 01:08 <kyak> ok, i was unlucky to pull some intermediate commit
2010-08-11 04:20 <bartbes> larsc: what do you mean?
2010-08-11 04:41 <bartbes> what is libthread part of?
2010-08-11 04:52 <wpwrak> rafa: you still have to reply to ron's comment on the wikireader :)
2010-08-11 05:40 <tuxbrain2> wpwrak: don't make rafa loose his precious time, it still have to do a theora player :P
2010-08-11 05:46 <wpwrak> tuxbrain2: naw, he has to do a bit more advertizing of his work. you know, "do good things and brag about it" ;-)
2010-08-11 06:02 <tuxbrain2> wpwrak: in that case I agree, go for it rafa straight to his neck!
2010-08-11 06:39 <bartbes> this is annoying..
2010-08-11 06:40 <bartbes> how am I supposed to fix a problem with a lib?
2010-08-11 06:40 <bartbes> updates feeds
2010-08-11 06:43 <bartbes> cool, new gmenu2x version
2010-08-11 06:54 <tuxbrain2> bartbes: new version? any info ?
2010-08-11 06:54 <bartbes> my fixes for the explorer
2010-08-11 06:54 <bartbes> and a new wallpaper
2010-08-11 06:54 <bartbes> new controls
2010-08-11 06:55 <bartbes> wallpaper alone is definately worth it
2010-08-11 06:55 <bartbes> ;)
2010-08-11 06:55 <bartbes> oh and the free card space indicator works now
2010-08-11 06:56 <bartbes> oh and I guess the constant screen updates stopped
2010-08-11 06:57 <bartbes> tuxbrain2: so yeah, just go ahead and build it
2010-08-11 06:57 <bartbes> btw, does anybody know a solution for this?
2010-08-11 06:57 <bartbes> /home/bart/nanonote/openwrt-xburst/staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/usr/lib/liblua.so: undefined reference to `crypt'
2010-08-11 06:58 <bartbes> it seems to mean I need to link against libcrypt
2010-08-11 06:58 <bartbes> but I don't have it
2010-08-11 06:59 <bartbes> not in my toolchain, not on the nn itself
2010-08-11 06:59 <bartbes> idea, let's go look at the lua package
2010-08-11 07:03 <kyak> bartbes: feeds/packages/libs/libgcrypt isn't this what you need?
2010-08-11 07:04 <bartbes> does libgcrypt include libcrypt?
2010-08-11 07:10 <bartbes> ah
2010-08-11 07:10 <bartbes> it's in a lua patch!
2010-08-11 07:14 <zedstar> if anyone is looking for a case for their ben i just found one that fits it well
2010-08-11 07:15 <larsc> bartbes: libcrypt is part of the libc
2010-08-11 07:16 <bartbes> larsc: you said that before, but does that mean it has no .so file?
2010-08-11 07:17 <larsc> bartbes: no, it has a .so file
2010-08-11 07:17 <bartbes> but.. I don't have it
2010-08-11 07:17 <bartbes> I'm pretty sure I built libc though
2010-08-11 07:17 <bartbes> hmm
2010-08-11 07:18 <larsc> ls staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.30.1/usr/lib/libcrypt.so
2010-08-11 07:20 <bartbes> oh
2010-08-11 07:20 <bartbes> it appeared..
2010-08-11 07:20 <bartbes> wow
2010-08-11 07:21 <larsc> magic ;)
2010-08-11 07:21 <bartbes> thx
2010-08-11 07:21 <bartbes> for making me see the light
2010-08-11 07:29 <kyak> larsc: hi, do you have plans to upgrade the kernel version in openwrt-xburst?
2010-08-11 07:31 <larsc> kyak: i don't have. but mirko has.
2010-08-11 07:32 <kyak> ok, so i'll ask him :)
2010-08-11 07:32 <kyak> mirko: hi, do you have plans to upgrade the kernel version in openwrt-xburst?
2010-08-11 07:35 <bartbes> larsc: I think I finally got it to build!
2010-08-11 07:37 <bartbes> I did, and most of all, it runs without segfaults!
2010-08-11 07:40 <bartbes> wolfspraul: more progress, love.timer runs on the nn as well (big thanks to Textmode and larsc there)
2010-08-11 07:40 <bartbes> finally, the frustration is over
2010-08-11 07:42 <wpwrak> bartbes: what does love.timer do, i.e., is it predictive, advisory, or observative in nature ?
2010-08-11 07:44 <bartbes> it provides timing functions for love ;)
2010-08-11 07:44 <larsc> :)
2010-08-11 07:44 <bartbes> http://love2d.org/wiki/love.timer
2010-08-11 07:45 <bartbes> not too impressive
2010-08-11 07:45 <bartbes> but that makes module 2
2010-08-11 07:45 <bartbes> next is love.event
2010-08-11 07:45 <bartbes> and then I'll need to write some new code
2010-08-11 07:46 <wpwrak> ah ... love.joystick. now i get it :)
2010-08-11 08:03 <bartbes> and love.event love.mouse and love.keyboard are cross-compiled and working
2010-08-11 08:03 <bartbes> (I know love.mouse is useless and love.keyboard is useless without a window, but they are dependencies of love.event)
2010-08-11 08:05 <bartbes> dusts off joystick
2010-08-11 08:06 <kyak> love.joystick - sound sexy
2010-08-11 08:09 <wpwrak> kyak: bartbes is trying to position the ben in the huge but largely untapped marked of female buyers
2010-08-11 08:09 <bartbes> exactly
2010-08-11 08:09 <bartbes> just wait for love.vibrate
2010-08-11 08:09 <kyak> we need a pink case then
2010-08-11 08:10 <kyak> ..and then "Ben" sounds very differently
2010-08-11 08:10 <bartbes> rename: Ken
2010-08-11 08:12 <wpwrak> makes sense. echo  bartbes | tr -d ts | sed s/e/ie/
2010-08-11 08:12 <bartbes> hehe
2010-08-11 08:13 <bartbes> compiles love.joystick
2010-08-11 08:13 <bartbes> I doubt it'll work
2010-08-11 08:13 <bartbes> ehm
2010-08-11 08:13 <bartbes> I mean, be useful
2010-08-11 08:13 <bartbes> but that's an entirely different matter
2010-08-11 08:15 <kyak> bartbes: are there any good "love" games that you play?
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gunfudeadlands/
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> http://www.moddb.com/games/10-second-war
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> and of-course a self-plug: http://github.com/bartbes/VolleyBrawl
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> but there are more than those 3 games
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> (of course)
2010-08-11 08:16 <bartbes> oh
2010-08-11 08:17 <bartbes> a recent 'hit'
2010-08-11 08:17 <bartbes> Not Tetris
2010-08-11 08:17 <bartbes> you may have heard from it
2010-08-11 08:18 <bartbes> well, love.joystick runs as well
2010-08-11 08:23 <kyak> cool, hope it will run smooth
2010-08-11 08:24 <valhalla> do you have any informations about a performance comparison between lua + love and python + pygame on the nanonote?
2010-08-11 08:24 <bartbes> I wouldn't know a comparison on a normal computer
2010-08-11 08:24 <bartbes> but in general lua is very fast
2010-08-11 08:25 <bartbes> and love is 'so fast' that in general people don't even worry about optimization (too much)
2010-08-11 08:25 <kyak> i'd love to have some breakout game on Ben
2010-08-11 08:25 <valhalla> does it use SDL?
2010-08-11 08:26 <valhalla> on normal computers performance isn't a big issue, but I've had bad experiences with pygame on computers with 128MB ram
2010-08-11 08:26 <valhalla> a lighter alternative is interesting
2010-08-11 08:26 <wpwrak> the 10 second war sounds nice. a bit like "rematch". http://www.sparkynet.com/spag/r.html#rematch
2010-08-11 08:27 <bartbes> valhalla: there are people running love on netbooks all the time
2010-08-11 08:28 <valhalla> bartbes: pygame works on netbooks as well: they are not so underpowered
2010-08-11 08:28 <bartbes> true...
2010-08-11 08:28 <bartbes> but real old stuff too
2010-08-11 08:28 <bartbes> ah, I wouldn't know really
2010-08-11 08:29 <kyak> bartbes: do you know already what is the first "love" game that could be run on Ben?
2010-08-11 08:29 <bartbes> not sure
2010-08-11 08:29 <bartbes> what I'm working towards as first runnable 'unported' love game
2010-08-11 08:29 <bartbes> (I'll scale the images though)
2010-08-11 08:29 <bartbes> is this love classic
2010-08-11 08:30 <kyak> so you first plan is to port love more or less?
2010-08-11 08:30 <bartbes> http://vimeo.com/1367117
2010-08-11 08:30 <bartbes> not completely
2010-08-11 08:30 <bartbes> but a very reasonable subset
2010-08-11 08:30 <kyak> are there "Zero dependency" games?
2010-08-11 08:30 <bartbes> as in?
2010-08-11 08:30 <kyak> does love have some "core"?
2010-08-11 08:31 <kyak> that some games can already be run with?
2010-08-11 08:31 <bartbes> the core itself is merely some GC, some general objects and lua bindings
2010-08-11 08:31 <bartbes> so I doubt that works
2010-08-11 08:31 <bartbes> it is highly modularized though
2010-08-11 08:31 <bartbes> as I said I've been porting modules over
2010-08-11 08:32 <bartbes> and I just started on a tiny bit of love.graphics
2010-08-11 08:32 <bartbes> only the window creating
2010-08-11 08:32 <bartbes> so I can test input
2010-08-11 08:32 <kyak> ok, i see
2010-08-11 08:43 <bartbes> nice, I can create windows now
2010-08-11 08:43 <bartbes> now let's cross-compile that
2010-08-11 08:43 <kyak> love.windows :)
2010-08-11 08:46 <bartbes> what was the nn screen size again?
2010-08-11 08:46 <mirko> kyak: not really, i don't see any good reasons, as afaik (larsc may link in here) 2.6.32 is running stable (at least not more unstable than 2.6.35)
2010-08-11 08:47 <mirko> kyak: however when you want to have a newer kernel version (I'd like to know the reasons btw :)) - in openwrt-trunk 2.6.35 is the current one
2010-08-11 08:48 <bartbes> look at that, it creates windows on the nn as well
2010-08-11 08:50 <kyak> mirko: cool! no, i'm really satisfied with how 2.6.32 is running, i just wanted to give it a try to 2.6.35 :) so i'll try openwrt-trunk
2010-08-11 08:51 <mirko> kyak: you may wanna try: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/mirko/testing/
2010-08-11 08:51 <mirko> kyak: mind, it's the openwrt-config - usb0-IP is 192.168.1.1
2010-08-11 08:51 <mirko> and it's _testing_ ;)
2010-08-11 08:52 <kyak> ok, thanks :)
2010-08-11 08:54 <bartbes> stitches together 2 screenshots
2010-08-11 08:59 <tuxbrain2> mirko: may marketing reasons enough to be in the edge of kernel versions? as good marketing guy I'm abstracting from any thecnical reason :P, it's just than we "marketed" the nanonote as be "upstream" and such, "the kernel not just work must live.." bla, bla, bla etc... so if .35 works at least as well than .32 why not make that change?
2010-08-11 09:04 <bartbes> http://i.imgur.com/P6xHP.png
2010-08-11 09:09 <bartbes> ehm, the right screen is the ben
2010-08-11 09:10 <bartbes> you can't read it because it's written in white
2010-08-11 09:10 <bartbes> (the background is actually transparent)
2010-08-11 09:19 <wolfspraul> he, I love that screenshot
2010-08-11 09:19 <wolfspraul> feels like I'm with a doc who wants to test whether I'm insane
2010-08-11 09:25 <bartbes> why?
2010-08-11 09:25 <bartbes> btw, I got an event loop running, so I can now accept keyboard input
2010-08-11 09:25 <bartbes> meaning that all ported modules should work fine now
2010-08-11 09:27 <bartbes> actually, I think I'm going to make a small demo that moves the mouse based on keyboard input
2010-08-11 09:27 <wolfspraul> bartbes: because I cannot see anything, like you said, but you keep looking at that black space whether you can see anything (screenshot?)
2010-08-11 09:27 <wolfspraul> it's fun :-)
2010-08-11 09:27 <wolfspraul> I like it
2010-08-11 09:28 <bartbes> well, it's mostly to demonstrate I moved the mouse pointer
2010-08-11 09:43 <bartbes> is moving around the pointer with the arrow keys
2010-08-11 09:43 <bartbes> I call that success ;)
2010-08-11 09:44 <tuxbrain2> congrat bartbes!!
2010-08-11 09:44 <bartbes> hmm
2010-08-11 09:44 <bartbes> this means I'm going to have to write some new backends..
2010-08-11 09:44 <bartbes> ah well
2010-08-11 09:45 <bartbes> today has been productive enough
2010-08-11 09:45 <bartbes> I'll do the rest later :P
2010-08-11 09:45 <tuxbrain2> we I said we have to add some love to distros you had taked this words literally :)
2010-08-11 09:46 <tuxbrain2> ben now has love to offer :) good motto
2010-08-11 09:56 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: is okay g00gle index our irc logs?
2010-08-11 10:12 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: why not? is it bad for some reason?
2010-08-11 10:12 <wolfspraul> a few months ago when we started irclogs zear brought up the issue of the ip addresses being logged as part of the join/part messages
2010-08-11 10:13 <wolfspraul> we have fixed that now, only public messages and actions are logged. also I cleaned all the old logs, so at least on our servers that data is gone and will not be collected anymore.
2010-08-11 10:13 <wolfspraul> actually I am just in the process of replacing Google Analytics with Piwik :-)
2010-08-11 10:13 <kristianpaul> wolfspraul: not sure if bad
2010-08-11 10:13 <kristianpaul> just is g00gle :p
2010-08-11 10:13 <wolfspraul> the piwik data is collected and controlled on the qi server, which means we can purge it after x days, same as the apache logs etc.
2010-08-11 10:14 <kristianpaul> great about piwik move :)
2010-08-11 10:14 <wolfspraul> yes
2010-08-11 10:14 <wolfspraul> working on it today actually
2010-08-11 10:14 <wolfspraul> it starts to work :-)
2010-08-11 10:14 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Template:Piwik_stats
2010-08-11 10:15 <wolfspraul> we still use google for some mail accounts, and jabber too. can fix that later :-)
2010-08-11 10:23 <kristianpaul> use 2% of google
2010-08-11 10:29 <wejp> actually, i don't like the fact that this irc channel is being logged
2010-08-11 10:35 <tuxbrain2> come on, this is a public channel and is a lot of valuable information discussed here than any other way will be lost forever... I don't understand this reticence really.
2010-08-11 10:36 <wejp> no
2010-08-11 10:36 <wejp> it is like recording every conversation you have and publish it so everyone (not only the participants) can read it
2010-08-11 10:37 <wejp> this way, everyone will be able to read it, forever.
2010-08-11 10:38 <tuxbrain2> but this is not a private conversation, is like a continuous debate arround concret topic, and yes the debates usually are recorded and keep forever :P
2010-08-11 10:38 <wpwrak> tuxbrain2: wejp has a point. conversation on irc tends to be more like a verbal conversation, where some privacy is implicitly assumed. with mail, you tend to be more careful about what you write. however, irc logs can indeed be valuable sources of information. so there are conflicting interests, both valid.
2010-08-11 10:39 <wejp> no, you are wrong. this is a conversation between a limited number of people, which is being made available to the whole world afterwards
2010-08-11 10:39 <wejp> wpwrak, yeah, you are right here.
2010-08-11 10:40 <wejp> the thing is, i don't want to think each time i write something, if i really want that to be saved for the whole world
2010-08-11 10:40 <wejp> it is way different from writing something on a wiki or a forum where you explicitly publish it with this intention
2010-08-11 10:40 <wolfspraul> if there were 2 public qi-hardware channels, a logged one and an unlogged one, what would happen?
2010-08-11 10:41 <wejp> i for one would surely prefer the non-logged one
2010-08-11 10:41 <wolfspraul> wejp: I would agree with you but with IRC the concept of 'public' is already clear by default, unless you have an explicitly private channel
2010-08-11 10:41 <wejp> but i doubt it is a good idea to have two channels
2010-08-11 10:41 <wolfspraul> in other words - if you don't log a channel, you may actually create a false perception of privacy
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> because you have totally no control over the nicks in this channel, and you don't know what they do with the data
2010-08-11 10:42 <wejp> wolfspraul, even with irc it is not public in that every conversation is available to everyone, but to the participants at the given time
2010-08-11 10:42 <wejp> you can even see who is in the channel
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> so you might even argue that publicly logging a public IRC channel is the right thing to do from an enlightenment angle
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> wejp: yes but you:
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> 1) don't know who they are
2010-08-11 10:42 <wejp> well yes, you don't know what they do with the data, but you don't know that for almost everything, even private emails could be published
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> 2) don't know when they come or go
2010-08-11 10:42 <wolfspraul> 3) don't know what they do with the data
2010-08-11 10:43 <wolfspraul> ok, but we are talking about irc and #qi-hardware now
2010-08-11 10:43 <wejp> yes, but that is not a good argument for logging the channel
2010-08-11 10:43 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think most people don't really think about the issue. it's also quite uncertain what negative consequences could (in practice) arise from this
2010-08-11 10:43 <wolfspraul> I think we should say that #qi-hardware is logged in the title of the channel
2010-08-11 10:43 <wejp> the is the very least that should be done
2010-08-11 10:43 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: so providing a choice may not really help
2010-08-11 10:44 <wolfspraul> well, I just speak for myself
2010-08-11 10:44 <wolfspraul> when I write something in a public IRC channel, I already apply any normal 'public' self-censoring to my language
2010-08-11 10:44 <wolfspraul> it doesn't change if I know it's also logged on an HTML page or not
2010-08-11 10:44 <wpwrak> only the paranoid survive ;-)
2010-08-11 10:45 <wolfspraul> I write differently in private conversations.
2010-08-11 10:45 <wolfspraul> right werner?
2010-08-11 10:45 <wolfspraul> :-)
2010-08-11 10:45 <wolfspraul> now, if some IRC channel would not be logged, I still wouldn't change that
2010-08-11 10:45 <wolfspraul> in fact just on irc, there are many people that are logged in from a server, logging everything, etc.
2010-08-11 10:46 <wejp> still it is a big difference if people log for themselves or if the logs are published to the internet
2010-08-11 10:46 <wejp> searchable by everyone, even years later
2010-08-11 10:46 <wolfspraul> yes but you don't know who is logging and for what reason
2010-08-11 10:46 <freespace> maybe it should be in the topic, so ppl can act accordingly
2010-08-11 10:46 <wolfspraul> isn't that even worse?
2010-08-11 10:46 <wolfspraul> oh sure, totally agree. must be in the topic.
2010-08-11 10:46 <wejp> no, and that'S a really bad argument for logging
2010-08-11 10:47 <wolfspraul> why?
2010-08-11 10:47 <wolfspraul> I think it's a very good argument.
2010-08-11 10:47 <wolfspraul> this _is_ a public channel
2010-08-11 10:47 <wolfspraul> nicks are totally self-chosen
2010-08-11 10:47 <wolfspraul> it's public
2010-08-11 10:47 <wejp> because you never know what people do, but that doesn't mean you should do those things your selve (or even worse things) just because somebody could do that too
2010-08-11 10:48 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: people often want to be identified by their conversation partners
2010-08-11 10:48 <wejp> as i said, a public channel is still only readable by those who have joined the channel by default
2010-08-11 10:48 <wejp> wpwrak, exactly
2010-08-11 10:48 <wejp> of course i could choose a random nick, but that would be pretty useless
2010-08-11 10:49 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: of course, you could log in as "a785fb6bf33af6ffdb459c8fd0c3f915a74a1fa33d03de3d2a314b8dc2fe99b0" and then /msg to everyone you know who you are :)
2010-08-11 10:49 <wolfspraul> yes but we are debating the pros and cons of html logging this channel now
2010-08-11 10:49 <wolfspraul> the pros are clear, I try to understand the cons better
2010-08-11 10:49 <freespace> do ppl actually use the online logs to gain knowledge?
2010-08-11 10:50 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: but then, you may still be tracked by your writing style or the information you post. if someone wants to find out who you are, there's probably little difference to just using plain nicks.
2010-08-11 10:50 <wolfspraul> definitely
2010-08-11 10:50 <freespace> i understand that is the intention, would like to know if it is borne out in practice
2010-08-11 10:50 <wejp> the pros are clear? actually i don't see many reasons for logging at all
2010-08-11 10:50 <wolfspraul> freespace: for example I don't stay logged in all the time (ha ha, I don't use a server to log channels :-)), so I check the html logs to read back on old stuff, and already caught many interesting things
2010-08-11 10:50 <freespace> fair enough :)
2010-08-11 10:51 <wolfspraul> the search also works quite nice, since in IRC discussions tend to happen over time sometimes, and the search will pull the lines neatly together
2010-08-11 10:51 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i don't think a solution exists that would make everyone happy. you could anonymize the logs, but that would either make the conversations incredibly hard to read, or you'd have the same problem with traceable "random" nicks.
2010-08-11 10:51 <freespace> or we can just behave like we do on the mailing list?
2010-08-11 10:51 <wolfspraul> wpwrak: we are moving in that direction already, by not logging join/part messages anymore, not logging nickname changes, and also removing all this stuff from the archives
2010-08-11 10:51 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: plus, it would make searching the logs harder, in case the author or recipient is part of the search input
2010-08-11 10:53 <wolfspraul> ok tomorrow I try to find out how to update the topic of this channel
2010-08-11 10:53 <wolfspraul> the logging should be announced there, first step
2010-08-11 10:53 <wolfspraul> I would be interested in an experiment of two #qi-hardware channels, a logged and unlogged one
2010-08-11 10:53 <wolfspraul> would be interesting :-)
2010-08-11 10:53 <wpwrak> sounds good to me. no risk, no fun :)
2010-08-11 10:54 <freespace> whois the bot?
2010-08-11 10:54 <freespace> maybe add an !invisible
2010-08-11 10:54 <freespace> to stop logging that person
2010-08-11 10:54 <wolfspraul> on this channel here? qi-bot
2010-08-11 10:54 <freespace> you can even do it after the fact with some parsing
2010-08-11 10:54 <wpwrak> ah yes, "don't log me". why not. or just log "foo said something"
2010-08-11 10:54 <kristianpaul> good idea
2010-08-11 10:54 <wejp> yeah, good idea
2010-08-11 10:55 <kristianpaul> you read that g00gle!! :p
2010-08-11 10:55 <wolfspraul> http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#eggdrop
2010-08-11 10:55 <wolfspraul> freespace: wejp can type some command so qi-bot will not log him anymore?
2010-08-11 10:55 <wolfspraul> I didn't even know that is possible :-)
2010-08-11 10:55 <freespace> well it is possible, i don't know if eggdrop does it by default :P
2010-08-11 10:55 <wolfspraul> that's cool then, we should also advertise that more
2010-08-11 10:56 <freespace> no, i mean it is possible
2010-08-11 10:56 <freespace> i don't know if eggdrop implements it
2010-08-11 10:56 <wolfspraul> well I happily remove anybody's stuff from the server, of course
2010-08-11 10:56 <wpwrak> you could still be tracked by context in many cases, e.g., when you announce you just sent wikileaks the launch codes for the us and russian icbms, but at least there would be no direct quotes
2010-08-11 10:56 <freespace> we might have to hack eggdrop to add the command
2010-08-11 10:57 <wpwrak> a manual alternative would be a killfile that just removes, say, /^wejp:/
2010-08-11 10:57 <freespace> or, grep "!invisible" log | awk <appropriateness here> | sort | uniq > invisible.users; then loop over that using a sed -i
2010-08-11 10:57 <wolfspraul> it's best to make the opt-out as easy as possible
2010-08-11 10:57 <wolfspraul> nah, don't even record it
2010-08-11 10:58 <wolfspraul> I am fighting all the logging everywhere
2010-08-11 10:58 <wolfspraul> so many logs, kept forever, crazy
2010-08-11 10:58 <wpwrak> easy = -(work_for_user*N+work_for_admin) ;-)
2010-08-11 10:59 <wolfspraul> ok one by one - first the topic
2010-08-11 10:59 <wpwrak> not recording in the first place also helps against subpoena attacks
2010-08-11 11:00 <wolfspraul> I for one would not feel one bit differently whether the channel is HTML logged or not, because I don't know who the others are and what they do with the data. but that's just my personal feeling of course.
2010-08-11 11:00 <wolfspraul> in fact I think _all_ irc protocol traffic is recorded indefinitely by a variety of parties already
2010-08-11 11:00 <wolfspraul> but that's another story...
2010-08-11 11:00 <nebajoth> there's absolutely nothing preventing any user from converting his own lurky-lurky irc logs into html
2010-08-11 11:01 <nebajoth> who's freaked out by it?
2010-08-11 11:01 <wolfspraul> sure not
2010-08-11 11:01 <wolfspraul> and joining the channel under whatever nick is the #1 normal way to get here :-)
2010-08-11 11:01 <wolfspraul> it has been the culture of IRC since day 1
2010-08-11 11:01 <wolfspraul> private and invite-only channels are the special case
2010-08-11 11:02 <nebajoth> hello
2010-08-11 11:02 <nebajoth> (also)
2010-08-11 11:02 <wpwrak> my conversation style is more loose on irc. more banter, more off-topic, some possibly offensive topics/language. also every once in a while, i catch myself having written something that i'd consider too sensitive for mails to a list.
2010-08-11 11:02 <nebajoth> its definitely less formal
2010-08-11 11:02 <freespace> doesn't look like there is any kind of existing support for opting users out of logging...
2010-08-11 11:02 <wolfspraul> sure, because it's irc - just chatting :-)
2010-08-11 11:02 <freespace> perhaps wpwrak can implement this... :P
2010-08-11 11:02 <nebajoth> I think that's taken into account by people reviewing irc logs
2010-08-11 11:03 <wolfspraul> ouch don't suggest it to him
2010-08-11 11:03 <wolfspraul> I will still juggle the scripting monsters in 20 years.
2010-08-11 11:03 <nebajoth> MUST HAZ SECRET TREEHOUS
2010-08-11 11:03 <wpwrak> freespace: i may offer it a place in my todo list with a one-year forecast ;-)
2010-08-11 11:03 <freespace> heh :)
2010-08-11 11:04 <bartbes> someone said you can always see who is in the channel, but isn't that the case for qi-bot as well? :>)
2010-08-11 11:04 <bartbes> ehm
2010-08-11 11:04 <bartbes> >:)
2010-08-11 11:04 <bartbes> personally, I don't care, I'm crazy all over the nets ;)
2010-08-11 11:04 <nebajoth> personality segmentation
2010-08-11 11:04 <wolfspraul> if we would have an easy way to remove wejp from html logging I would have added the nick already :-)
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> that's the ticket
2010-08-11 11:05 <bartbes> there is a simple way
2010-08-11 11:05 <bartbes>  /kick wejp
2010-08-11 11:05 <bartbes> ;)
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> haha
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> you could do it with sed
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> sed script after the fact
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> put it on a cron
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> I just don't understand why in the context of a radically open project
2010-08-11 11:05 <bartbes> I guess you sanitize it just before uploading
2010-08-11 11:05 <nebajoth> why you would ever consider it seriously
2010-08-11 11:06 <bartbes> *could
2010-08-11 11:07 <zedstar> dont get naked on chatroulette is my tip of the day
2010-08-11 11:07 <bartbes> hehe
2010-08-11 11:09 <wolfspraul> I think privacy issues are very important for this project, the motivation of a lot of people that support copyleft anything, copyleft hardware.
2010-08-11 11:09 <wejp> those are two different things, an open project and logging conversations. i really like how extensively almost every aspect of the nanonote and the other projects is being documented on the wiki. but on irc there's also offtopic discussions (which is normal and just fine)
2010-08-11 11:09 <bartbes> no, no, no
2010-08-11 11:09 <wolfspraul> no backdoors, no phoning home, no logging/tracking everywhere, privacy in general
2010-08-11 11:09 <wejp> wolfspraul, yes and thank you for taking this seriously
2010-08-11 11:09 <bartbes> we have *open* off-topic discussions ;)
2010-08-11 11:10 <bartbes> (yes, I realize I haven't really contributed something to this conversation)
2010-08-11 11:10 <wolfspraul> wejp: oh totally, thank you for bringing it forward. it was the same with zear months ago, when I just proceed with the first style of logging, still with IP addresses and all. until we finally improved that.
2010-08-11 11:10 <wolfspraul> we can improve more, I'm sure!
2010-08-11 11:10 <wejp> :)
2010-08-11 11:11 <wolfspraul> I just spent the day replacing google analytics with the same software running on the qi server, so we can delete everything after a little while.
2010-08-11 11:12 <kristianpaul> go sleep :)
2010-08-11 11:12 <wejp> that's cool
2010-08-11 11:13 <wolfspraul> yes was about time. it was easy and fun too actually. Piwik works nicely.
2010-08-11 11:14 <wolfspraul> kristianpaul: yeah I'm out now... n8
2010-08-11 11:16 <wejp> yeah, i have checked out piwik a while ago, looks really nice
2010-08-11 11:16 <wejp> the only thing i don't like about it is its use of flash for the charts
2010-08-11 11:17 <wejp> could also be done with javascript only
2010-08-11 11:19 <wolfspraul> yes saw that too, but at least they already use flash a lot less than google analytics
2010-08-11 11:21 <wolfspraul> btw, if anybody sees value in that, we can exclude the irclogs in robots.txt. that's easy.
2010-08-11 11:21 <wolfspraul> I don't think a google search will ever directly lead to a daily irclog anyway, will it? don't know...
2010-08-11 11:22 <wejp> excluding it from google's bots through robots.txt would be a start, i guess
2010-08-11 11:24 <wolfspraul> if nobody objects I'll just do that
2010-08-11 11:25 <wolfspraul> he - I'll read in the irclogs tomorrow morning whether someone objected - how about that :-)
2010-08-11 11:25 <wolfspraul> n8 now...
2010-08-11 11:35 <wpwrak> wolfspraul in absentia: if you exclude google, how are _we_ supposed to find anythgin there ? ;-))
2010-08-11 11:41 <lekernel> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/08/milkymist_interactive_vj_station.html
2010-08-11 12:15 <kyak> actually, what can be done is a !vote eggdrop script that will stay here for couple of weeks to make sure everyone has a chance to vote the simple question "to log or not to log"
2010-08-11 12:15 <kyak> this would be fair
2010-08-11 12:31 <nebajoth> I'm totally against excluding irc logs from google indexing
2010-08-11 12:31 <nebajoth> unless you really want to set up our own index
2010-08-11 12:31 <nebajoth> it throws the baby out with the bathwater
2010-08-11 12:31 <nebajoth> irc isn't JUST for the off-topic conversations that wpwrak seems to worry about so much
2010-08-11 12:31 <nebajoth> at least 80% of it is on-topic, relevant discussion
2010-08-11 12:32 <nebajoth> the entire point of logging is so that we can offer on-topic, relevant discussions indexed
2010-08-11 12:32 <nebajoth> as an additional resource from our project
2010-08-11 12:32 <nebajoth> why don't we just set up a parallel, unlogged channel?
2010-08-11 12:33 <nebajoth> many projects do exactly that
2010-08-11 12:33 <nebajoth> one channel for support and development chat
2010-08-11 12:33 <nebajoth> one channel for off-topic, off-colour conversation
2010-08-11 12:33 <nebajoth> I don't see the challenge of keeping an awareness that you are being logged in the developer channel
2010-08-11 12:33 <nebajoth> and not saying idiot things as a result
2010-08-11 12:34 <nebajoth> but I don't know what the big deal is anyway
2010-08-11 12:34 <nebajoth> what "privacy" are we supposed to be maintaining in the context of this project?
2010-08-11 12:44 <wejp> it not about saying idiot things
2010-08-11 12:44 <wejp> i have no intention to do that
2010-08-11 12:44 <wpwrak> nebajoth: oh, you may say that chips from, say, TI really suck, that you think their prices are pure robbery, and that you despise their business ethics in general. now, one year later, you apply for a job at TI. human resources do a google search and find you.
2010-08-11 12:45 <wpwrak> nebajoth: or you may say something that's confidential and someone does go after you for this
2010-08-11 12:45 <wejp> yep, good example
2010-08-11 12:45 <wpwrak> nebajoth: so there are potential risks. whether they really matter enough in practice is another story.
2010-08-11 12:46 <kyak> wpwrak: btw, do you really want such a bitch employer, who's judging you by what you (presumably) said somewhere?
2010-08-11 12:46 <wpwrak> nebajoth: e.g., anyone you meet in the street could decide to ram a large kitchen knife into your chest, yet the risk of this is actually happening is low enough that most of us aren't afraid of actually leaving our fortress every now and then
2010-08-11 12:47 <wpwrak> kyak: it may be just HR that's a bitch. due diligence and such.
2010-08-11 12:47 <kyak> if one is a real expert and a good head, adequate employer won't care what you said and when
2010-08-11 12:48 <kyak> yeah, world is small and weird, everything can happen
2010-08-11 12:48 <wejp> kyak, this is so wrong. in a perfect world it would be like this, reality is way different from that
2010-08-11 12:48 <wpwrak> kyak: that's what i'd assume as well. that's why i don't consider this a real risk for myself. your choice of potential employers and your own risk assessment may vary, though.
2010-08-11 12:52 <kyak> anyway, i don't care either way
2010-08-11 12:57 <nebajoth> I can't see it either
2010-08-11 12:57 <nebajoth> its #qi-hardware, not #4chan
2010-08-11 12:58 <nebajoth> and if you say nasty stuff about Texas Instruments, you shouldn't even be wanting to work there a year later
2010-08-11 12:59 <wejp> huh?
2010-08-11 12:59 <kyak> no, why not? what if i really want to make them better? :)
2010-08-11 13:00 <nebajoth> I still don't understand what you think is going to happen
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> its never a good idea to post private information, like personal address, for example, in a public channel
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> that should always be done in PMs
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> so just don't do it
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> at all
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> and if you have beef with a supplier, free speech says you should be able to say anything you like about them
2010-08-11 13:01 <nebajoth> and have the moral strength to stand by it later
2010-08-11 13:02 <nebajoth> there should be no information posted in this channel that compromises your privacy
2010-08-11 13:02 <wejp> you might not understand that, but some people use a nickname so others know who they are. unfortunately that also implies everyone can make this connection.
2010-08-11 13:02 <nebajoth> so?
2010-08-11 13:02 <wejp> so your argument with not posting personal information is nonsense
2010-08-11 13:02 <nebajoth> what
2010-08-11 13:02 <nebajoth> ok
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> walk me through the worst case scenario again
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> there's something I'm not understanding, clearly
2010-08-11 13:03 <wejp> obviously
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> yes
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> obviously
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> lets try again
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> so you're chatting
2010-08-11 13:03 <wejp> why not take wpwrak's example with the employer?
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> with your buds
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> ok
2010-08-11 13:03 <wejp> which part didn't you understand there?
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> the part where you'd work for them, I think
2010-08-11 13:03 <nebajoth> if you hated their products
2010-08-11 13:04 <nebajoth> or why you'd say something so nasty about their products that they wouldn't hire you
2010-08-11 13:04 <wpwrak> nebajoth: maybe you changed your mind. or you need the money badly.
2010-08-11 13:04 <wejp> what? even if i hated one of their products, it does not neccessarily mean that the company as a whole sucks or something
2010-08-11 13:04 <zear> so someone other than me also doesn't like the logging on this server? :)
2010-08-11 13:04 <zear> *channel
2010-08-11 13:04 <wejp> yeah, or you just change your mind
2010-08-11 13:04 <wpwrak> nebajoth: hah, people never complain in exaggerated ways when they're unhappy about something ;-)))
2010-08-11 13:04 <rafa> nebajoth: can not you tell wrong things?.. I mean.. I say.. linux sucks.. then .. one year later
2010-08-11 13:05 <wejp> this actually happens
2010-08-11 13:05 <rafa> nebajoth: I use linux
2010-08-11 13:05 <nebajoth> you should be able to walk into an interview with an engineer during the hiring process and defend everything you've said
2010-08-11 13:05 <rafa> nebajoth: and I realized that it is good
2010-08-11 13:05 <nebajoth> if you can't, you may not be smart enough for the job
2010-08-11 13:05 <zear> rafa, there are more serious things you can say here you might regret in 10 years
2010-08-11 13:05 <rafa> nebajoth: but somebody will reject a business with me because
2010-08-11 13:05 <rafa> I said that
2010-08-11 13:05 <zear> religious, political, financial, etc
2010-08-11 13:05 <zear> that's why i only talk about nanonote here
2010-08-11 13:05 <nebajoth> don't say them in #qi-hardware?
2010-08-11 13:05 <nebajoth> yes for sure
2010-08-11 13:05 <wpwrak> rafa: you say "linux sucks". five years later, there's rafa exclusion clause in the gpl 4 ;-)
2010-08-11 13:05 <nebajoth> that's my point
2010-08-11 13:05 <wejp> zear, true, the employer thign was just one example
2010-08-11 13:06 <rafa> nebajoth: don't talk anywher
2010-08-11 13:06 <rafa> e
2010-08-11 13:06 <nebajoth> haha
2010-08-11 13:06 <nebajoth> well, its OK in private channels with people you trust
2010-08-11 13:06 <qi-bot> [commit] Mirko Vogt: call generic qmake function and add necessary TARGET_LDFLAGS for recursive library lookup http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e040576
2010-08-11 13:06 <wejp> there are lots of things which you might regret later being available to everyone, even though you did not mean to do or say anything bad or stupid at that time
2010-08-11 13:06 <rafa> wpwrak: ;-))) yeah.. and I JUST DID!
2010-08-11 13:06 <nebajoth> even there you have to realize everything logs
2010-08-11 13:06 <nebajoth> its just the way the internet works
2010-08-11 13:06 <wpwrak> rafa: and even using your real name ! you're so in trouble :)
2010-08-11 13:07 <zear> it still limits me because i can't be so openminded with you guys here
2010-08-11 13:07 <rafa> cya
2010-08-11 13:07 <zear> but it's ok
2010-08-11 13:07 <nebajoth> there's nothing stopping us from starting another channel
2010-08-11 13:07 <nebajoth> one without logging
2010-08-11 13:07 <nebajoth> the problem here is the overlap between people who want to stay on-topic
2010-08-11 13:07 <nebajoth> and people who apparently want to chat
2010-08-11 13:07 <nebajoth> there's no problem with either, but rather than tweaking the logging, we should be using the tools MADE for such division in topic-orientation
2010-08-11 13:08 <wejp> i don't want an aditional channel for off-topic things only
2010-08-11 13:08 <nebajoth> ie: split the channels
2010-08-11 13:08 <zear> this is a serious business, even if 90% of people here are linux geeks
2010-08-11 13:08 <nebajoth> you just want private things to be redacted from a running log
2010-08-11 13:08 <wejp> also oftne enough you are on-topic and then drift into an off-topic discussion
2010-08-11 13:08 <zear> so i guess we can't have nice offtopic discussions here
2010-08-11 13:08 <nebajoth> why isn't the onus on you to stay on-topic?
2010-08-11 13:08 <nebajoth> and if you drift off-topic, you should be running the privacy risks consciously
2010-08-11 13:09 <kyak> we can keep logs, bue exclude them from google index or even make it private?
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> I don't want to exclude from google index
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> unless we have our own
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> even then
2010-08-11 13:10 <wejp> you want everyone to think about every single word one says twice? that might work when writing on a forum, but a chat is meant for realtime conversation
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> people should be able to search for information in our irc logs
2010-08-11 13:10 <zear> if anyone wants offtopic discussion without a risk of google caching it, feel free to join #dingoonity
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> because its stuff that doesn't necessarily make it to the wiki or email list
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> wejp: its all just streams of text, dude
2010-08-11 13:10 <kyak> nebajoth: how many people have searched our irc logs so far? who are those people?
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> I constantly do for other projects, kyak
2010-08-11 13:10 <nebajoth> especially supybot
2010-08-11 13:11 <kyak> i think mainly there are few people from here, who wanted to see "what happened at night"
2010-08-11 13:11 <wpwrak> kyak: yes, where's the log !? ;-))
2010-08-11 13:11 <nebajoth> and I look through our mailing list archives a lot
2010-08-11 13:11 <zear> so who's in favour and who's against the logging again? I'm confused :D
2010-08-11 13:11 <nebajoth> I'm completely in favour of logging
2010-08-11 13:11 <wejp> i'm sure you are
2010-08-11 13:11 <nebajoth> public access to logs
2010-08-11 13:11 <wejp> nobody knows who you are anyway
2010-08-11 13:11 <nebajoth> now you're just getting aggressive
2010-08-11 13:12 <nebajoth> I can see why logging is a concern
2010-08-11 13:12 <zear> i would like if the nicks and references to nicks in the logs could be removed
2010-08-11 13:12 <nebajoth> I dunno
2010-08-11 13:12 <kyak> just make the logs nickless? could be a good idea
2010-08-11 13:12 <zear> then we could cache the logs without a risk of assigning the messages to the nicks
2010-08-11 13:12 <wejp> maybe that could be done
2010-08-11 13:12 <nebajoth> I judge whether people know what they're talking about by nick
2010-08-11 13:12 <wpwrak> zear: i'm slightly in favour of logging. of course, i log everything locally anyway. a public log would make it easier to refer to things said on irc, without first having to ask for permission.
2010-08-11 13:12 <wejp> but it is not a simple task
2010-08-11 13:13 <zear> wejp, but we need not only remove <wejp> or wejp as the first word of the message
2010-08-11 13:13 <zear> we need to filter the whole message and remove any "wejp" reference
2010-08-11 13:13 <kyak> wejp: yeah, like this message i'm mentioning you in
2010-08-11 13:13 <wejp> exactly
2010-08-11 13:13 <wpwrak>  /nick the
2010-08-11 13:13 <zear> because i can say something like "have you guys heard that wejp said this and that?"
2010-08-11 13:13 <wpwrak> or, better, /nick not
2010-08-11 13:13 <zear> and it will be logged
2010-08-11 13:14 <wejp> but you cannot just remove it because then the context of parts of the conversation might get lost
2010-08-11 13:14 <nebajoth> :O
2010-08-11 13:14 <wejp> sou you would have to replace it with a random temporary nick
2010-08-11 13:14 <zear> wejp, the messages can be colored
2010-08-11 13:14 <zear> so the context of the discussion won't be lost
2010-08-11 13:14 <nebajoth> I could live with that
2010-08-11 13:14 <nebajoth> well
2010-08-11 13:14 <wejp> but colors would not help in some situations
2010-08-11 13:14 <nebajoth> then you lose data from previous days
2010-08-11 13:15 <wpwrak> reminds me of my old suggestion to sneak a  #define while if  into some system's/distro's headers
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> but as i say, it's enough someone puts your nick in the middle of the sentence, or mistype it and the filter won't remove it
2010-08-11 13:15 <nebajoth> unless the nick was universally replaced throughout the logs
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> and then it will be easy to assign your nick to your messages
2010-08-11 13:15 <wejp> if one references a certain person, because there are multiple conversations going on, this reference would get lost
2010-08-11 13:15 <kyak> wejp: another good idea, just rename yourself here to some random nick?
2010-08-11 13:15 <nebajoth> haha
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> kyak, won't work
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> because he uses this nick on other channels in ircnode
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> *freenode
2010-08-11 13:15 <kyak> he can open another client connection
2010-08-11 13:15 <kyak> this is not a problem
2010-08-11 13:15 <zear> but that's just a dirty workaround
2010-08-11 13:16 <wejp> kyak, this doesn't work for some reasons: first i would have to use a different irc client for this channel. while this would be possible, it would be to cumbersome so i would rather not join the channel at all
2010-08-11 13:16 <nebajoth> I'm also in #serial-rapist and #hates-texas-instruments
2010-08-11 13:16 <wejp> also people know me be the name and oftne enough ask me questions
2010-08-11 13:16 <wejp> when they don't know my random name this doesn't work
2010-08-11 13:16 <kyak> wejp: not necessarily. most irc client can connect to multiple servers under multiple nicks
2010-08-11 13:17 <kyak> they'll know you by that random nick
2010-08-11 13:17 <wejp> ok, but then i would have to connect twice to the same network and would not be able to use my bouncer for that
2010-08-11 13:17 <kyak> but this is just technical issue, it is solvable
2010-08-11 13:17 <wpwrak> kyak: random nicks would also be a pain to tell apart
2010-08-11 13:18 <wejp> yeah, true
2010-08-11 13:18 <wejp> but still the problem with people not recognizing me would remain
2010-08-11 13:19 <kyak> so you want to be recognized, but not logged :) what if you future employer is right here?
2010-08-11 13:19 <kyak> or sharing some other channel with you?
2010-08-11 13:19 <wejp> kyak, i guess i can take that risk. i see 39 people in here
2010-08-11 13:20 <wejp> but there are several billion people on earth possibly be able to read the channel logs
2010-08-11 13:20 <wejp> quite a difference
2010-08-11 13:21 <wejp> also i see an even bigger problem in being able to trace a single person over years through those logs
2010-08-11 13:21 <zear> wejp, not only people, BOTS!
2010-08-11 13:21 <zear> advertisement bots
2010-08-11 13:21 <wejp> bots too
2010-08-11 13:22 <nebajoth> O_O
2010-08-11 13:22 <zear> so in case someone is reading this log, looking for dirty stuff on me, get lost man!
2010-08-11 13:22 <kyak> i b
2010-08-11 13:22 <zear> oh, and if you're checking if i am a good worker - yeah man, hire me :D
2010-08-11 13:22 <wpwrak> zear: or think ex-wife on a revenge trip. these can be persistent.
2010-08-11 13:23 <kyak> i bet antone googling for "irc logs" in two days will find this nice discussion ;-)
2010-08-11 13:23 <kyak> *anyone
2010-08-11 13:23 <nebajoth> rofl
2010-08-11 13:23 <zear> yeah, and let's say we had a discussion about some barely legal stuff, it would be easy for her to frame me later
2010-08-11 13:23 <wpwrak> kyak: we we're all doomed ;-)
2010-08-11 13:23 <wejp> kyak, of course
2010-08-11 13:24 <wpwrak> zear: (barely legal) it will be claimed that she wasn't ;-)
2010-08-11 13:24 <wejp> lol
2010-08-11 13:24 <zear> even a sane discussion about c and p could easily ruin someone's life
2010-08-11 13:25 <wejp> see, we're all off-topic now ;)
2010-08-11 13:25 <zear> yea
2010-08-11 13:25 <nebajoth> I live my life off-topic
2010-08-11 13:25 <wejp> we should move over to #dingoonity :P
2010-08-11 13:25 <zear> hehe
2010-08-11 13:25 <zear> as long as i'm in charge there, there will be no public logs :P
2010-08-11 13:25 <wejp> :D
2010-08-11 13:26 <nebajoth> taking my ball
2010-08-11 13:26 <nebajoth> and goinnnn home
2010-08-11 13:26 <zear> hmm.. and how about giving the access to logs only for registered members?
2010-08-11 13:26 <nebajoth> against
2010-08-11 13:26 <zear> that way we could prevent google from caching it, yet still making it easy for everyone interested to access it
2010-08-11 13:26 <nebajoth> oh
2010-08-11 13:26 <nebajoth> hmmm
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> if it was easy to register
2010-08-11 13:27 <zear> and allow to log with openid
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> I'd be in favor
2010-08-11 13:27 <zear> yeah, with openid it should be easy
2010-08-11 13:27 <wejp> hm
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> we'd need to index it ourselves likely
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> which is doable
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> with xapian or something
2010-08-11 13:27 <wejp> yes, that should be possible
2010-08-11 13:27 <nebajoth> I would agree to that
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> I just want a resource
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> available to people with a low barrier of entry
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> if it was easy to get into, it would be a decent compromise, imo
2010-08-11 13:28 <wejp> still i think really important stuff should be put onto the wiki
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> oh for sure
2010-08-11 13:28 <zear> hmm.. google can read doc and pdf formats, so i guess publishing the logs in that formats wouldn't prevent it from caching it
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> and forum posts
2010-08-11 13:28 <wejp> it is really cumbersome to search logs for useful information anyway
2010-08-11 13:28 <nebajoth> but for the same reason its easy to drift off-topic, its also easy to let valuable tidbits of information
2010-08-11 13:29 <nebajoth> answers to user questions posed in-channel
2010-08-11 13:29 <nebajoth> sort of
2010-08-11 13:29 <nebajoth> get lost
2010-08-11 13:29 <nebajoth> its cumbersome, but its saved my bacon a few times
2010-08-11 13:29 <nebajoth> when my questions weren't answered in mailing lists, forums, or wikis
2010-08-11 13:30 <wpwrak> (restricted access) now, how often do you want to get just some bit of information from the web ? how do you feel if google tells you it's on a forum, and that forum requires you to register to read first ?
2010-08-11 13:31 <nebajoth> true too
2010-08-11 13:31 <nebajoth> angry usually :P
2010-08-11 13:32 <zear> wpwrak, how often forums offer you openid login?
2010-08-11 13:32 <zear> never, henve your frustration
2010-08-11 13:32 <wpwrak> heh, one more obstacle :)
2010-08-11 13:32 <zear> here you could easily access the logs with your openid account
2010-08-11 13:32 <wpwrak> which percentage of the internet population even knows what openid is ? :)
2010-08-11 13:32 <zear> 99% of people interested in the nanonote
2010-08-11 13:33 <zear> i'd risk 100%, but then someone from this channel would say he does not have openid ;)
2010-08-11 13:33 <nebajoth> and tons of people have them by accident
2010-08-11 13:34 <nebajoth> like any livejournal user
2010-08-11 13:34 <zear> hmm.. wait, wait.. but can't we just add that stuff to robots.txt so google won't cache it? :D
2010-08-11 13:34 <nebajoth> that's what started this off
2010-08-11 13:34 <zear> ah
2010-08-11 13:34 <wejp> yes, that's what wolfgang already suggested
2010-08-11 13:34 <nebajoth> I want caching
2010-08-11 13:34 <nebajoth> unless we have our own index
2010-08-11 13:34 <zear> and still anyone could upload his logs from this channel on the net
2010-08-11 13:35 <zear> but yeah, the public log already does it and we have to limit it from showing private bits of logs
2010-08-11 13:35 <wejp> zear, yes, but how likely is it that someone uploads all logs from this channel?
2010-08-11 13:35 <zear> wejp, someone who idles a screen session? :D
2010-08-11 13:36 <wejp> ;)
2010-08-11 13:37 <nebajoth> imma only upload the stuff zear and wejp say
2010-08-11 13:37 <nebajoth> JK JK
2010-08-11 13:38 <zear> :D
2010-08-11 13:38 <wejp> lol
2010-08-11 13:39 <zear> anyway, have to go, cya guys
2010-08-11 13:39 <wejp> me too, cya
2010-08-11 13:49 <viric> Today I built scummvm for the BEn
2010-08-11 13:49 <viric> But at start it says it can't open the mouse
2010-08-11 13:50 <viric> Any clue on what to do to get a keyboard interface for it?
2010-08-11 13:50 <viric> zedstar: I don't use openid :)
2010-08-11 13:50 <viric> zedstar: but I know (only a bit) what it is about
2010-08-11 14:00 <rafa> viric: do you see any graphic screen or you just get the stdout error?
2010-08-11 14:01 <viric> stdout error
2010-08-11 14:01 <rafa> viric: http://jlime.com/wiki/index.php/Jlime_Muffinman#SDL_on_Framebuffer
2010-08-11 14:01 <rafa> try before to run scummvm with:
2010-08-11 14:01 <rafa> export SDL_NOMOUSE=1
2010-08-11 14:01 <viric> ah let me try
2010-08-11 14:02 <viric> sure
2010-08-11 14:02 <viric> 1min
2010-08-11 14:03 <viric> now it says: SDL_SetVideoMode says we can't switch to that mode (No video mode larger enough for 640x400)
2010-08-11 14:05 <rafa> let me think, I used scummvm
2010-08-11 14:07 <viric> I can't find how to make it work
2010-08-11 14:10 <rafa> viric: I can give you a tip
2010-08-11 14:11 <rafa> viric: I do not remember exactly how i did.. but the tip should work, and perhaps I did the same when I tested/used it
2010-08-11 14:11 <viric> go on :)
2010-08-11 14:11 <rafa> viric: install scummvm in your linux PC. I have the debian version. Runit.. you will see the 640x480 screen.
2010-08-11 14:11 <rafa> Go options
2010-08-11 14:12 <rafa> Then go -> Graphics mode
2010-08-11 14:12 <rafa> then set "normal no scaling"
2010-08-11 14:12 <rafa> then quit
2010-08-11 14:12 <rafa> and run scummvm again to check that it is in 320x240
2010-08-11 14:12 <rafa> After, check the config files on your pc
2010-08-11 14:13 <rafa> perhaps you just need, after that, to copy the file on your pc : ~/.scummvmrc to your $HOME in your nn
2010-08-11 14:14 <rafa> I just ran on pc and set that graphic mode. In .scummvmrc I have now "gfx_mode=1x"
2010-08-11 14:15 <rafa> which will tell scummvm to run in 320x240
2010-08-11 14:15 <viric> ahh
2010-08-11 14:15 <rafa> is it clear?
2010-08-11 14:15 <viric> I'm installing scummvm
2010-08-11 14:15 <rafa> okey
2010-08-11 14:15 <rafa> ;)
2010-08-11 14:15 <viric> simply it's the first thing I had at hand to build for SDL for the nanonote
2010-08-11 14:16 <rafa> no problem.. if you want try now I can past the .scummvmrc I got
2010-08-11 14:16 <viric> Maybe I should do some more effort to get prboom :)
2010-08-11 14:16 <viric> but let's try this.
2010-08-11 14:16 <rafa> is not prboom on repositories?
2010-08-11 14:16 <viric> I don't know
2010-08-11 14:16 <viric> I'm not using the opkg or apt-get package managers
2010-08-11 14:17 <rafa> ah.. okey
2010-08-11 14:17 <viric> scummvm -g 1x   works fine enough
2010-08-11 14:17 <rafa> ah.. cool!
2010-08-11 14:18 <viric> but  Ican't move the mouse cursor! :)
2010-08-11 14:18 <rafa> did you have to SDL_NOMOUSE=1
2010-08-11 14:18 <rafa> ?
2010-08-11 14:18 <viric> right
2010-08-11 14:18 <rafa> perhaps scummvm has shortcuts? I do not know
2010-08-11 14:18 <rafa> anyway.. all the games need mouse ;)
2010-08-11 14:18 <viric> how did you play it without mouse?
2010-08-11 14:18 <viric> haha
2010-08-11 14:18 <viric> I expected to move the mouse cursor with the cursor keys
2010-08-11 14:19 <rafa> I used scummvm on Freerunner
2010-08-11 14:19 <rafa> (openmoko)
2010-08-11 14:19 <rafa> 320x240
2010-08-11 14:19 <viric> and there is mouse?
2010-08-11 14:19 <rafa> there I have touchscreen
2010-08-11 14:19 <rafa> so, yes, I can play games
2010-08-11 14:20 <viric> clear :)
2010-08-11 14:21 <rafa> btw, prboom is a killer application for nn ;)
2010-08-11 14:21 <rafa> dont try it
2010-08-11 14:23 <viric> ahh
2010-08-11 14:23 <viric> good to know!
2010-08-11 14:23 <rafa> you will be playing prboom for the next four weeks non stop
2010-08-11 14:23 <viric> Any game you recommend?
2010-08-11 14:23 <viric> Ahhhh ok
2010-08-11 14:23 <viric> then it will work :)
2010-08-11 14:23 <rafa> :)
2010-08-11 14:23 <rafa> yeah.. how it works!
2010-08-11 14:23 <rafa> :)
2010-08-11 14:25 <viric> where are you from, btw?
2010-08-11 14:25 <viric> you have a name like from Spain
2010-08-11 14:26 <rafa> Argentina.. we were Spain in year 1800 surely :P
2010-08-11 14:27 <viric> Lucky you! I'm Catalan.
2010-08-11 14:29 <viric> you have very good comic writers in Argentina :)
2010-08-11 14:30 <viric> I like a lot "Yo, Matías" and "Liniers"
2010-08-11 14:30 <viric> well, Macanudo.
2010-08-11 14:31 <rafa> ah.. yes, Liniers is a cool guy
2010-08-11 14:31 <rafa> Caloi is another cool comic writer as well
2010-08-11 14:32 <viric> ah, I don't know it. Let me look for it
2010-08-11 14:32 <viric> few lands have good comic writers, I think.
2010-08-11 14:32 <viric> (or I know too few of them :)
2010-08-11 14:33 <nebajoth> america has great comic writers
2010-08-11 14:33 <rafa> well, I am not an expert either
2010-08-11 14:33 <nebajoth> exhibit A: xkcd
2010-08-11 14:33 <viric> nebajoth: yes, good one.
2010-08-11 14:33 <viric> America includes Argentina btw :)
2010-08-11 14:34 <viric> nebajoth: dilbert, cyanide&happiness...
2010-08-11 14:37 <wpwrak> rafa: hah, ron's statement still stands unchallenged !
2010-08-11 14:38 <rafa> wpwrak: perhaps we just need to show the wikireader demo video
2010-08-11 14:38 <rafa> so he knows that there was an effort at least
2010-08-11 14:38 <rafa> :)
2010-08-11 14:40 <wpwrak> you should post the url, yes
2010-08-11 14:42 <rafa> hehe.. let me try..
2010-08-11 14:42 <viric> argh, I can't build prboom
2010-08-11 14:43 <viric> include/sys/types.h:67:17: error: two or more data types in declaration specifiers
2010-08-11 14:44 <viric> is there a public repository of jlime so I can copy the patches from? :)
2010-08-11 14:46 <rafa> patches? which patches?
2010-08-11 14:46 <viric> Hm I thought prboom had some tricks to be cross-built for the nanonote
2010-08-11 14:46 <rafa> viric: we use OpenEmbedded. You can download
2010-08-11 14:47 <rafa> packages if these are useful for you.. And their dependences
2010-08-11 14:47 <viric> it's in their web?
2010-08-11 14:47 <viric> where is the nanonote specific part? There in openembedded?
2010-08-11 14:47 <rafa> The OpenEmbedded building system knows how to build every package.
2010-08-11 14:48 <rafa> No, you use openembedded to build the whole repository, no matter which arch is the final one
2010-08-11 14:48 <viric> ok
2010-08-11 14:48 <rafa> so all the OE repositories built should be the same
2010-08-11 14:48 <viric> nice
2010-08-11 14:48 <rafa> with the same packages inside.
2010-08-11 14:49 <viric> I looked at the prboom recipe
2010-08-11 14:49 <viric> it does not build for me; what version of gcc/libc to crossbuild?
2010-08-11 14:49 <rafa> If you want, from http://jlime.com/wiki/index.php/Jlime_Muffinman.. you can get packages already built if those are useful for you.. There are around 18000 packages I guess.
2010-08-11 14:50 <viric> wow, big number
2010-08-11 14:50 <rafa> and prboom is inside :)
2010-08-11 14:50 <viric> I imagined :)
2010-08-11 14:51 <rafa> viric: the OE builds its own toolchain to crosscompile when you build the whole repo.
2010-08-11 14:51 <viric> what versions does that toolchain use?
2010-08-11 14:52 <rafa> it depends on the current OE version, it changes from time to time.. OE guys try to use the latest versions of tools
2010-08-11 14:52 <viric> ah ok
2010-08-11 14:52 <viric> nice
2010-08-11 14:52 <rafa> If you want to know the toolchain that it built to build jlime repo you can download the toolchain from..
2010-08-11 14:52 <rafa> let me check..
2010-08-11 14:53 <rafa> http://jlime.com/downloads/development/crosscompilers/jlime-mipsel-toolchain.tar.gz
2010-08-11 14:53 <rafa> that was just useful for OE.. but we use that one when we want to build some application manually.
2010-08-11 14:55 <viric> ah nice
2010-08-11 14:55 <viric> I bypassed the prboom problem though! It was 'configuring' not detecting things fine. Built!
2010-08-11 14:55 <viric> 'configure'
2010-08-11 14:56 <viric> it needed ac_cv_type_uid_t=yes ac_cv_type_gid_t=yes
2010-08-11 15:00 <rafa> great!
2010-08-11 15:01 <viric> I've to find one of those precious WADs in my hard disks...
2010-08-11 15:02 <rafa> haha.. soou are going to be absent for several days... :)
2010-08-11 15:03 <viric> :)
2010-08-11 15:21 <nebajoth> I haz the WADs stashed away safely
2010-08-11 15:21 <nebajoth> for rainy days
2010-08-11 15:29 <viric> gaa I don't manage to set the resolution to 320x240
2010-08-11 15:32 <rafa> viric: prboom  -width 320 -height 240
2010-08-11 15:33 <viric> gaaa it wokrs
2010-08-11 15:39 <wpwrak> rafa: do you have a picture of my ben with idbg installed but witout cables ?
2010-08-11 15:40 <rafa> wpwrak: he, http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/idbg-for-jlime-meeting/installation1.jpg
2010-08-11 15:41 <rafa> wpwrak: I have the original size as well
2010-08-11 15:44 <Guest66777> i read that there now is a debian running on the ben
2010-08-11 15:44 <Guest66777> that's nice to hear
2010-08-11 15:48 <viric> Is there any way I can know the 'battery percent left'?
2010-08-11 15:48 <viric> or a way to forecast when it will shut down?
2010-08-11 15:59 <viric> ok - New User Guide :)
2010-08-11 16:01 <wpwrak> rafa: hmm, great picture. but TP5 is cut off. do you have one with it as well ?
2010-08-11 16:30 <rafa> wpwrak: yes
2010-08-11 16:30 <rafa> wpwrak: let me upload
2010-08-11 16:32 <rafa> wpwrak: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/idbg-for-jlime-meeting/installation1_1.jpg
2010-08-11 16:32 <rafa> wpwrak: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/idbg-for-jlime-meeting/installation1_2.jpg
2010-08-11 16:48 <wpwrak> rafa: perfect. thanks a lot !
2010-08-11 16:50 <wpwrak> rafa: is this already the full resolution ?
2010-08-11 16:55 <rafa> wpwrak: no.. the original is big
2010-08-11 16:55 <rafa> do you want that one?
2010-08-11 17:06 <wpwrak> yes, please :)
2010-08-11 17:15 <rafa> wpwrak: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/idbg-for-jlime-meeting/IMG_3590.JPG
2010-08-11 17:15 <rafa> wpwrak: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/idbg-for-jlime-meeting/IMG_3591.JPG
2010-08-11 17:17 <wpwrak> rafa: excellent. thanks a lot !
2010-08-11 18:21 <bartbes> wejp: case in favor of the irc logs, I looked up the screenshot I posted here earlier today
2010-08-11 18:21 <bartbes> (just saying)
2010-08-11 20:24 <Textmode> whats jLime like?
2010-08-11 20:29 <rafa> Textmode: what do you mean?
2010-08-11 20:30 <Textmode> rafa: just looking for opinions
2010-08-11 20:30 <rafa> ah.. then mine does not count :)
2010-08-11 20:31 <urandom_> Textmode it is very nice, has matchbox and mplayer and all
2010-08-11 20:31 <Textmode> huggles rafa 
2010-08-11 20:36 <Textmode> umm...I should probably let it finish downloading before I try and install it :P
2010-08-11 20:39 <rafa> Textmode: sd version works a bit better than nand.. but just for few things.. For example, if you want to install some package via opkg, with really many many dependences it would like to use swap. If you install on sd (and follow the instructions) it will have swap and the Linux will be happier
2010-08-11 20:40 <Textmode> meh, should have said that earlier.
2010-08-11 20:40 <Textmode> I've already installed the first two files, just waiting on jlime-muffinman-image
2010-08-11 20:41 <rafa> no problem.. you can use it well anyway
2010-08-11 20:42 <urandom_> i gues it could also have swap on NAND in theorie, could it?
2010-08-11 20:42 <tuxbrain2> Textmode: actually just booting on jlime, the user experience is really great, and also due it have demo content to test (images, video, text, also contains a help file to indicate how to control them) fine details , openwrt should copy
2010-08-11 20:42 <Textmode> well, i'll see soon enough :P
2010-08-11 20:43 <rafa> urandom_: yes, and we are thinking to add swap on nand for the next beta.. because we upload these often I think that nand version will have a tiny file swap at least soon.
2010-08-11 20:43 <tuxbrain2> yes a how to create and activate a swap file
2010-08-11 20:43 <tuxbrain2> will be cool ;)
2010-08-11 20:43 <Textmode> doesn't NAND have finite write cycles?
2010-08-11 20:44 <tuxbrain2> same as SD
2010-08-11 20:44 <Textmode> true, but its easier to throw away an SD and put in a new one :P
2010-08-11 20:44 <tuxbrain2> is matter on how time we are talking about :)
2010-08-11 20:44 <rafa> Textmode: we could create a random file on every boot for nand. Create and make a 8MB of swap would take just few seconds.. 5 perhaps.
2010-08-11 20:45 <rafa> and we would not write on the same place on every boot. And swap is not always used
2010-08-11 20:45 <Textmode> hmm, if you say so.
2010-08-11 20:45 <kristianpaul> rafa: wpwrak nice pics and hack btw :)
2010-08-11 20:45 <tuxbrain2> how->how much
2010-08-11 20:45 <Textmode> download faster, dammit...
2010-08-11 20:47 <urandom_> it could also detect if sd card is inserted and if so use the sd card for swap
2010-08-11 20:47 <rafa> urandom_: it actually does that I think :)
2010-08-11 20:48 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: did you solder that at home?
2010-08-11 20:48 <kristianpaul> how was the reflow?
2010-08-11 20:49 <tuxbrain2> wolfspraul: kernel and rootfs from jlime flashing from SD not working, kernel unable to open ubifs partition,
2010-08-11 20:49 <tuxbrain2> same files but flashing through uboot jlime booting and running.....?
2010-08-11 20:49 <rafa> tuxbrain2: the current terminal sucks a bit. But we will add (or at least we are thinking/testing.. ) this rxvt with 5x7 xorg font: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/calcurse-5x7-font.jpg
2010-08-11 20:49 <rafa> tuxbrain2: http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/rxvt-5x7-font.jpg
2010-08-11 20:50 <wolfspraul> tuxbrain2: don't understand you. What is your question?
2010-08-11 20:52 <rafa> wolfspraul: he tried to install on nand via sd, but he got a system which was not able to mount rootfs. Then he installed via usbboot the same files on nand, and that boots well.
2010-08-11 20:52 <tuxbrain2> well sorry is not a question , it was the result of my test and the question mark is the state of my mind,
2010-08-11 20:53 <tuxbrain2> rafa:pretty neat font :)
2010-08-11 20:53 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: oh, that's just manual soldering, with the iron. didn't need to fire up the reflow oven :)
2010-08-11 20:54 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: hey good, :)
2010-08-11 20:55 <wpwrak> rafa: btw, i forgot something: i didn't write-protect the boo loader. so in theory, broken firmware could brick the idbg.
2010-08-11 20:55 <wpwrak> booT even
2010-08-11 20:56 <rafa> wpwrak: you mean if somobody reflash again the idbg using a broken firmware?
2010-08-11 20:56 <wpwrak> rafa: you need a broken firmware that happens to try to overwrite the boot loader, yes
2010-08-11 20:57 <wpwrak> rafa: pretty unlikely to happen, though. well, we can fix it quickly when you come over the next time.
2010-08-11 20:59 <Textmode> idbg?
2010-08-11 21:01 <wpwrak> Textmode: yes, the boot loader in idbg
2010-08-11 21:01 <Textmode> what is the idbg? :P
2010-08-11 21:02 <kristianpaul> is the awesome thing for the nn ever made ;)
2010-08-11 21:02 <kristianpaul> because is tiny !!
2010-08-11 21:02 <kristianpaul> relly
2010-08-11 21:02 <kristianpaul> relly*
2010-08-11 21:02 <Textmode> ...okay?
2010-08-11 21:02 <wpwrak> Textmode: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/idbg-v2-install.jpg
2010-08-11 21:03 <kristianpaul> Textmode: tiny and programable :=)
2010-08-11 21:03 <kristianpaul> what else you need :)
2010-08-11 21:03 <wpwrak> Textmode: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-August/004919.html
2010-08-11 21:04 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: i'll hire you as my public relations agent ;-)
2010-08-11 21:04 <kristianpaul> :p
2010-08-11 21:06 <wpwrak> reorganizing all the code to support different hardware types was a bit of a pain. that's why it took so long for the new version. i had the circuit working already weeks ago.
2010-08-11 21:06 <kristianpaul> where is TP25 btw, i cant find it :/
2010-08-11 21:06 <kristianpaul> TP75**
2010-08-11 21:07 <wpwrak> what is it ?
2010-08-11 21:07 <Textmode> I can't seem to enter numbers into the jlime terminal...
2010-08-11 21:07 <kristianpaul> wpwrak> GPB17 (NC), GPB18 (TP23), GPB30 (TP25), GPB27 (NC), GPB28 (NC)
2010-08-11 21:07 <wpwrak> ah, TXD. under the battery sticker
2010-08-11 21:07 <kristianpaul> ahh
2010-08-11 21:08 <wpwrak> TP25 .. lemme see ...
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> TP75
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> no no 25
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> my fault
2010-08-11 21:08 <tuxbrain2> Textmode: I confirm I can't either
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> 10:30 < wpwrak> U1A: PD25/TX (TP75),
2010-08-11 21:08 <wpwrak> also under the battery sticker. in a box, labeled "COB TEST"
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> ahh dam
2010-08-11 21:08 <kristianpaul> but is TX
2010-08-11 21:09 <kristianpaul> i tought was IO
2010-08-11 21:09 <wpwrak> it's the "useless" TX, so you can use it for IO
2010-08-11 21:09 <kristianpaul> well i dind clarify yday when ask abput free pins
2010-08-11 21:09 <kristianpaul> oh really?
2010-08-11 21:10 <kristianpaul> sure i will notget issues with keyboard or soemthing?
2010-08-11 21:10 <wpwrak> yup. the UART has two pairs of tx/rx lines. one has tx available but rx connected to the keyboard. not good for a console.
2010-08-11 21:10 <kristianpaul> i think is is usefull when uboot boots with S key pressed
2010-08-11 21:10 <Textmode> tuxbrain2: :/
2010-08-11 21:11 <wpwrak> the other uses tdi/tdo from jtag. much nicer. the drawback is that the test points are far away from the speaker. (see
2010-08-11 21:11 <wpwrak> http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/idbg-v2-install.jpg
2010-08-11 21:11 <rafa> tuxbrain2: Textmode : numbers on terminal: shift + red arrow + number. We do not know how to use fn key on X yet. But after number appeared on screen (and if you are using the terminal) you need to press once red arrow (it looks like it enables something.. and you need to press again to disable). Really weird and hard to fix. That is why we will use rxvt soon.
2010-08-11 21:12 <Textmode> hmm.
2010-08-11 21:12 <wpwrak> rafa: sounds like a rather creative way for entering numbers :)
2010-08-11 21:12 <Textmode> also, what the hell is the volume key in gmu? the nn volume buttons do nothing :P
2010-08-11 21:13 <Textmode> rafa: I like to call it "redshift"
2010-08-11 21:13 <rafa> wpwrak: no idea how to config fn key :P.. I have asked if somebody has ideas with xmodmap.. but 0 answers so far.
2010-08-11 21:13 <wpwrak> redshift must die :) well, in the ya. i hope.
2010-08-11 21:14 <wpwrak> rafa: just adapt the kernel :)
2010-08-11 21:14 <rafa> Textmode: I like to call this mode (shift+red arrow+number) "shit"
2010-08-11 21:14 <rafa> :)
2010-08-11 21:15 <kristianpaul> nice touch suign Makefiles for PCB's :)
2010-08-11 21:15 <Textmode> nah, I meant I called the red arrow key "redshift", I propose "redshit" as the name for that combination. :P
2010-08-11 21:15 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: "make pcb" ;-)
2010-08-11 21:16 <Textmode> again, how the hell do adjust the volume in gmu?
2010-08-11 21:17 <wpwrak> Textmode: change speaker-ear distance ? :)
2010-08-11 21:17 <rafa> so far, to avoid a bit the "shit mode" this is the TODO for beta 3 : add calcurse, add rxvt, add 5x7 font (xorg misc fonts), remove current terminal, enjoy that
2010-08-11 21:18 <Textmode> wpwrak: not so great with earphones.
2010-08-11 21:19 <wpwrak> Textmode: you could put some long screws into them to act as headphone-head spacers, and adjust the volume by turning them.
2010-08-11 21:19 <Textmode> ...
2010-08-11 21:20 <wpwrak> Textmode: useful if you ever want to infiltrate a mad scientist convention without getting noticed
2010-08-11 21:23 <Textmode> the nanonote is vibrating from the volume...
2010-08-11 21:25 <wpwrak> subwoofer ?
2010-08-11 21:26 <Textmode> no, just really f-ing loud.
2010-08-11 21:26 <kristianpaul> rafa: how i do enable transparency in rxvt?
2010-08-11 21:30 <Textmode> I'm serious though, this is almost unusable if I can't adjust the volume.
2010-08-11 21:30 <Textmode> my only real option is to see if I can find my dummyplug to at least mute it, but thats hardly a solution.
2010-08-11 21:36 <urandom_> you really cant adjust volume? i can in gmu using the volume keys but i mostly use openwrt for gmu cause it boots faster so not sure
2010-08-11 21:36 <Textmode> urandom_: I really can't, the volume buttons do nothing in GMU.
2010-08-11 21:37 <urandom_> maybe you have the red arrow activated?
2010-08-11 21:37 <Textmode> in the movie player it seems to be the same as left/right (rewind, and fastforward)
2010-08-11 21:38 <Textmode> yeah, i tried the redshift too.
2010-08-11 21:41 <tuxbrain2> Textmode: sure it can be fixed, at least you can remap volume keys in the gmu config file
2010-08-11 21:42 <Textmode> hmm...
2010-08-11 21:43 <tuxbrain2> A good thing should be unifi common control (volume, ff, rewind, pause, etc) with same keys along media players or at least gmu and mplayer :)
2010-08-11 21:43 <tuxbrain2> unifi->unify
2010-08-11 21:43 <tuxbrain2> time to sleep
2010-08-11 21:43 <tuxbrain2> c u
2010-08-11 21:44 <urandom_> sleeping, good idea
2010-08-11 21:52 <kristianpaul> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Y_Window_System
2010-08-11 21:54 <rafa> Textmode: perhaps gmu volume has some issue with X. For X vol keys is page up/down.
2010-08-11 21:54 <rafa> you can install alsa mixer as well
2010-08-11 21:55 <rafa> but it should work. Let me check, if there is some problem I will add that task for the beta3. And I am doing that version during these days.
2010-08-11 21:56 <rafa> kristianpaul: No sure if rxvt has tranparency. Do you know if it has?
2010-08-11 21:57 <rafa> Textmode: mplayer volume works and also othere functions, but it takes a few seconds to react, no idea why mplayer takes that time
2010-08-11 22:01 <kristianpaul> rafa: it said in the manual
2010-08-11 22:01 <kristianpaul> i just cant figurout with is not using it
2010-08-11 22:02 <kristianpaul> even gnome-terminal do know after edit teh.Xdefault but rxvt not :/
2010-08-11 22:02 <kristianpaul> s/know/now
2010-08-11 22:03 <rafa> kristianpaul: perhaps it needs some help from X, no idea really
2010-08-11 22:03 <kristianpaul> ok
2010-08-11 22:11 <wpwrak> kristianpaul: so, will you build an idbg for yourself ?
2010-08-11 22:20 <Textmode> I still don't know wha an idbg is...
2010-08-11 22:22 <wpwrak> Textmode: it's a usb to serial converter with a few extras. for the ben's serial console. what distinguishes it from other solutions is that you have a proper usb receptacle on the ben.
2010-08-11 22:23 <wpwrak> Textmode: the extras are that you can remotely hardware-reset the ben and also control usb boot (the one implemented by the cpu's rom)
2010-08-11 22:25 <Textmode> interesting.
2010-08-11 22:37 <kristianpaul> wpwrak: maybe
2010-08-11 22:37 <kristianpaul> not seems to hard
2010-08-11 22:37 <kristianpaul> at least i have the solder iron and the laser printer :)
2010-08-11 22:38 <kristianpaul> so..
2010-08-11 22:58 <kristianpaul> i need to qoute the mcu and read about programing it, later..
2010-08-11 22:58 <kristianpaul> gn8 for now