2010-06-25 00:18 Has anyone seen the error "Unable to use mmc 0:1 for fatload ** Wrong Image Format for bootm command" trying to boot from SD? It looks remarkably similar to http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardFAQ#U-Boot_v1_unable_to_use_mmc_error though I'm not sure where the "mmcinit" command would be 2010-06-25 00:19 I'm using a u-boot built from a June 4 clone of openwrt-xburst 2010-06-25 00:54 not i 2010-06-25 02:35 Ah, I seem to be deluded about where u-boot came from... 2010-06-25 03:01 D'oh. turns out the issue was I had an ext2 fs without a partition. Now it just isn't booting :) more funtimes ahead 2010-06-25 07:43 Does NanoNote support usb0 network? 2010-06-25 07:49 Necrosporus: yes, client mode usb-ether 2010-06-25 07:50 what do you mean "client mode"? 2010-06-25 07:50 Hm... But anyway, I can't think out a use case 2010-06-25 07:50 kyak: usb knows a master or host and clients on his bus 2010-06-25 07:51 kyak: mouse, wlan adapter, kbd all are clients. your notebook is a host. the nn does not support host mode 2010-06-25 07:51 I can read with usual windows mobile pda, which I already have (but it need a new battery) 2010-06-25 07:51 I can listen the music as well 2010-06-25 07:51 emdete: i see.. 2010-06-25 07:52 I can type notes on my smartphone 2010-06-25 07:52 What is reason for that PDA? 2010-06-25 07:52 What I can do on NanoNote which I can't on my existing devices? 2010-06-25 07:53 build your own from scratch 2010-06-25 07:53 though technically that's with the data 2010-06-25 07:53 Necrosporus: you may even take a pen & paper! heureka! :D 2010-06-25 07:53 freespace, I don't have a microchip factory 2010-06-25 07:53 me neither 2010-06-25 07:54 tuxbrain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDoGNwM_zgg 2010-06-25 07:54 nanonote isn't what i would call a consumer device 2010-06-25 07:54 So... What's reason to buy a nano-note? 2010-06-25 07:54 it isn't "what can it do for me" but more "why can i do with it" 2010-06-25 07:54 same reason you get an arduino 2010-06-25 07:54 I can compile LFS on my Windows Mobile PDA as well 2010-06-25 07:55 I have installed Debian Lenny on it and it works 2010-06-25 07:55 you get hardware and software, all of which is completely accessible, and you do whatever you want to it without any hinderance 2010-06-25 07:55 freespace, what's hinderance about my Pocket Loox 710? 2010-06-25 07:56 It can run Debian with haret 2010-06-25 07:57 may I ask why you ask if you clearly have made your mind up? 2010-06-25 07:57 i don't know, depends on what you want to do with it 2010-06-25 07:57 does it happen to have a serial port? 2010-06-25 07:57 (pretty old PDA, but with 64 megs of RAM and 416MHz ARM) 2010-06-25 07:57 or some gpio pins? 2010-06-25 07:58 I have no idea... I don't have a flasher anyway 2010-06-25 07:58 flasher? 2010-06-25 07:58 Special device to reprogram ROM 2010-06-25 07:58 * EEPROM 2010-06-25 07:58 bartbes, because I don't know 2010-06-25 07:58 what does that have to do with serial port of gpio pins? 2010-06-25 07:59 AFAIK, my pda support serial port 2010-06-25 07:59 But I have to solder adapter by hand 2010-06-25 07:59 a reason nobody has mentioned: because of the community? 2010-06-25 07:59 I dunno what's gpio 2010-06-25 08:00 general purpose IO 2010-06-25 08:00 is the pocket loox 710 stil being made? 2010-06-25 08:00 Probably not 2010-06-25 08:00 It's from 2004 2010-06-25 08:00 When I was a windows user 2010-06-25 08:00 so despite the fact debian runs on it 2010-06-25 08:01 i would say no one is developing just for it 2010-06-25 08:02 freespace, not true 2010-06-25 08:02 I know a man who does 2010-06-25 08:02 a single person 2010-06-25 08:02 ? 2010-06-25 08:03 Him modified Linux Kernel for me 2010-06-25 08:03 that's pretty cool 2010-06-25 08:03 but you can see that it is somewhat of a dead end 2010-06-25 08:03 because the hardware is no longer being produced 2010-06-25 08:03 Maybe I'm even first person have worked with GNU/Linux on said PDA 2010-06-25 08:03 the number of ppl porting softwar for it will decline until it gets to zero 2010-06-25 08:04 along wih the number of working devices 2010-06-25 08:04 I can build LFS 2010-06-25 08:04 And port anything myself 2010-06-25 08:04 but you can't build another pocket loox 710 2010-06-25 08:04 if yours happen to break 2010-06-25 08:04 I can't build another NanoNote as well 2010-06-25 08:04 that is true 2010-06-25 08:04 I don't have a factory 2010-06-25 08:04 however, some one else can build a nanonote 2010-06-25 08:05 I don't need another pl710 2010-06-25 08:05 wolfspraul ping 2010-06-25 08:05 If this will break, I can just switch to other device 2010-06-25 08:05 and throw away all your porting effort 2010-06-25 08:05 and redo it again? 2010-06-25 08:06 urandom_: ping timeout (240 seconds) 2010-06-25 08:06 It probably will be just effort for effort 2010-06-25 08:06 Like building LFS 2010-06-25 08:06 what do you mean by "effort for effort"? 2010-06-25 08:07 I don't see, why I would like to get another pl710 if this will die 2010-06-25 08:07 I'd prefer a superior device instead 2010-06-25 08:08 I thought about buying a Samsung i5700 Spica... But as I know, it could be reflashed only frow windows 2010-06-25 08:09 urandom_: pong 2010-06-25 08:09 It's only thing, why I decided not to buy it... plus maybe lack of money? 2010-06-25 08:09 Now I think about Highscreen Zeus 2010-06-25 08:10 It can at least browse the internet 2010-06-25 08:10 NanoNote can't :( 2010-06-25 08:10 sure it can 2010-06-25 08:10 How? 2010-06-25 08:10 i do it, just not in graphics mode, just yet 2010-06-25 08:10 usb networking 2010-06-25 08:10 With usb cable? 2010-06-25 08:10 nod 2010-06-25 08:11 not entirely ideal, but far from "can't browse the net" 2010-06-25 08:11 Why I would do so if I can browse the internet from computer attached to other end? 2010-06-25 08:11 It would be much more comfy, I suppose 2010-06-25 08:11 i didn't say you shohuld 2010-06-25 08:11 simply that you can 2010-06-25 08:11 wolfspraul just wanted to ask if you would give bartbes a nanonote for free, i think you have already talked a bit to him, he is very skilled and has no rl so he can contribute lots of value to the project (and port ulove) 2010-06-25 08:12 freespace, for me, I won't because it uncomfy ~= I can't 2010-06-25 08:12 won't != can't 2010-06-25 08:12 anyway, ok 2010-06-25 08:12 urandom_: wait, you just said I have no real life? 2010-06-25 08:13 it would seem the nanonote isn't suitable for you 2010-06-25 08:13 was there some particular reason you took an interest? 2010-06-25 08:13 bartbes well not as much as rude, just wanted to say you have lots of time for it :P 2010-06-25 08:14 Only use for nanonote I can see is pocket bc 2010-06-25 08:14 But I have a calculator already 2010-06-25 08:14 urandom_: btw, he's in #loveclub as well 2010-06-25 08:15 just saying 2010-06-25 08:15 oh did not see 2010-06-25 08:15 but the others just stopped talking so.. 2010-06-25 08:15 it would appear then you have no use for a nanonote 2010-06-25 08:15 wolfspraul: I have a quick question if you have a minute... when you were testing various SD cards with the NN, what was your way of telling if they're not working? Could they not be read at all or was there difficulty booting from them? 2010-06-25 08:16 freespace, book reader 2010-06-25 08:16 urandom_: we (me) cannot give away units for free, because I already subsidize every device with both cash and time :-) 2010-06-25 08:16 ok, odd choice given how small a screen it has, and not even eink 2010-06-25 08:16 so each time I 'sell' (ahem) one I give cash with it 2010-06-25 08:17 My pocket loox battery is broken 2010-06-25 08:17 But it was a pretty good reader 2010-06-25 08:17 but sometimes we find other people who donate devices, or rather pay for a device to be donated to someone 2010-06-25 08:17 It can work from battery only for less than hour 2010-06-25 08:17 he is in Germany? 2010-06-25 08:17 netherlands he is 2010-06-25 08:18 ah OK 2010-06-25 08:18 surely there are other devices at a similar price point that will do the job? 2010-06-25 08:18 I don't know... 2010-06-25 08:18 Necrosporus: the NanoNote does have an advantage here then: it takes standard Nokia batteries so you would't be stuck without a replacement battery ever again 2010-06-25 08:18 that said, it should act as a reader fine 2010-06-25 08:19 urandom_: quickest solution is we need to find someone to cough up 99 EUR 2010-06-25 08:19 it's other shortcomings dosn't distract from that 2010-06-25 08:19 *detract 2010-06-25 08:19 neil_, hm... is there only one sort of nokia battery? 2010-06-25 08:19 arctanx: 'testing' I just try to boot, nothing more 2010-06-25 08:20 Necrosporus: probably many, but BL-4C and BL-5C are very popular 2010-06-25 08:20 Necrosporus: and still being produced 2010-06-25 08:20 wolfspraul i know you guys dont have much money but giving bartbes one yould increase the sales a lot in the long run maybe so would be an investment 2010-06-25 08:21 also i cant donate one for bartbes myself cause i earn no money 2010-06-25 08:22 wolfspraul: Cool. Do you know how u-boot fails when it's an unsupported kind of card? e.g., I currently have only a single card and it's reading /boot/uImage then freezing. It would be useful to me to know if that's an unsupported-card type of failure or something else entirely 2010-06-25 08:22 suppose if you make a convincing case, you can get a enough ppl to each donate enough to get him one 2010-06-25 08:22 arctanx: probably the u-boot bug. xiangfu is on it, ping him. 2010-06-25 08:22 wolfspraul: oh okay, I obviously haven't been following closely enough, thanks for hte tip 2010-06-25 08:23 urandom_: the success of this project depends on our ability to find more people to share in, cash and time-wise 2010-06-25 08:23 more shoulders 2010-06-25 08:23 so any logic like "can't you just add another 99 EUR after you already chipped in 150k EUR" won't work with me 2010-06-25 08:24 if we don't find more people to share costs, the project will fail 2010-06-25 08:24 whether I ship out free Nanos or not (I have never done that and won't) 2010-06-25 08:24 urandom_: see my earlier comment. make a convincing case and perhaps some of us here will donate enough to get him one 2010-06-25 08:24 we will have the same situation with Milkymist One very soon 2010-06-25 08:24 so far we have been quite successful at building a real community, with good hacking going on, good seeds 2010-06-25 08:24 who has paid for wejps nano? 2010-06-25 08:25 seeing this makes me feel guilty.. :( 2010-06-25 08:25 we had some where multiple people shared the costs 2010-06-25 08:26 bartbes: no! it's good! :-) 2010-06-25 08:26 we need to become more open minded in helping each other 2010-06-25 08:26 that is true for all parties 2010-06-25 08:26 depending on what bartbes will bring, i am not against donating towards getting him a nanonote 2010-06-25 08:26 freespace porting ulove should be convincing enough 2010-06-25 08:27 what's ulove? 2010-06-25 08:27 the only thing is that I really think for me personally I am already maxing it out, so just because I have a warehouse in Hong Kong with 2xx Nanos in it doesn't mean I can press the magic button and ship free devices out 2010-06-25 08:27 if I would do that I would kill the project 2010-06-25 08:27 ulove is cool 2010-06-25 08:27 google isnt much help on what it is :) 2010-06-25 08:27 a game engine using Lua and SDL 2010-06-25 08:27 ah 2010-06-25 08:28 what is the hp again? loeveproject.org? 2010-06-25 08:28 love2d.org 2010-06-25 08:28 ah 2010-06-25 08:30 bartbes: basically when you step forward and could do so many good things but can't just throw 99 EUR at it, it's a good opportunity for our project to make it more clear that we are a community funded project 2010-06-25 08:30 that people can help each other, donate or loan gear to each other, etc. 2010-06-25 08:31 if we don't take the time to communicate this, everybody will just think there is this big company somewhere throwing out free devices ala Google or Intel 2010-06-25 08:31 that would be cool though :P 2010-06-25 08:31 but there isn't, and we need to take the time to communicate this for the long term success of our project 2010-06-25 08:31 not necessarily 2010-06-25 08:31 wolfspraul: are you serious about the $150k? I'd be scared as hell 2010-06-25 08:31 I have seen such companies giving away tons of gear without any measurable results. 2010-06-25 08:32 what a waste 2010-06-25 08:32 sure I'm serious 2010-06-25 08:32 true, wasting is bad 2010-06-25 08:32 and 150k is bad as well.. 2010-06-25 08:32 strewth 2010-06-25 08:32 no I'm not scared, all fine. project is a lot of fun! I actually trust this free software stuff and community :-) 2010-06-25 08:32 you are dedicated... 2010-06-25 08:32 awesome :) 2010-06-25 08:32 look what we've achieved already 2010-06-25 08:32 thanks to endless people who contribute, without pay 2010-06-25 08:33 we are building a whole little free distro 2010-06-25 08:33 multiple even with JLiMe 2010-06-25 08:33 I like this much better than Android or Ubuntu or MeeGo 2010-06-25 08:33 yeah 2010-06-25 08:36 at linux.conf.au 2008 they gave away about 400 OLPC laptops 2010-06-25 08:36 I bet. 2010-06-25 08:36 I'm sure there was some excellent work done as a result 2010-06-25 08:36 but by and large I doubt it was a nett win 2010-06-25 08:37 I agree that it's not a good strategy 2010-06-25 08:38 well 400 is lot of stuff but i gues you have to give some devices to core devs to be succesfull 2010-06-25 08:39 no 2010-06-25 08:39 totally disagree 2010-06-25 08:39 I have lots of first-hand experience in this. 2010-06-25 08:39 what works is very very subtle 2010-06-25 08:39 success most often depends on very few, even one, key individuals 2010-06-25 08:39 give away enough laptops and you will get some excellent work. the question is whether there was net gain. 2010-06-25 08:40 like Lars in our case 2010-06-25 08:40 freespace: right, and I haven't heard anything to suggest there was 2010-06-25 08:40 heck, the OLPCs have run windows for a while now 2010-06-25 08:40 no giving away in this style is just clueless, will devalue their product, most devices will end in the drawer, etc. 2010-06-25 08:40 iirc, not all of them were given to devs 2010-06-25 08:40 some of them were given to sick children 2010-06-25 08:41 at least for me I can say I believe in individuals 2010-06-25 08:41 well, at least that's the purpose of the project 2010-06-25 08:41 I do believe that bartbes could make a different wrt loeve on NanoNote 2010-06-25 08:41 so I'm very interested in him having one 2010-06-25 08:41 but then - how to solve the finance problem? that's a good second challenge. 2010-06-25 08:44 dont we have any damaged nano that are good enough for development but cant be sold to enduser? 2010-06-25 08:45 excellent idea urandom_ 2010-06-25 08:45 yeah I was thinking about that too 2010-06-25 08:45 also maybe something like http://nextsprocket.com/ 2010-06-25 08:45 but hardware quality of NanoNote is extremely good. Adam may have one or two damaged ones soon. 2010-06-25 08:45 if he can repair them we would probably not sell 2010-06-25 08:46 I will try to see what is there, I definitely try to not leave even one piece of any sample or prototype lying around somewhere. 2010-06-25 08:55 wolfspraul: your work is great man, and I really like how well you do it.. I would like to see several wolfgans around showing the product in conferences, magazines, little meetings, whatever. I feel that many people do not understand well the Qi goals... But on the other hand people without business/talk/open hardware skills like me do not find an easy way to help with the success of the project. 2010-06-25 08:58 rafa: he just left.. 2010-06-25 08:58 I think that if every guy buying a nn is happy with it, then a nice way to help is to convice, at least, another person to get one. Because if you have a friend with a nn as well you would find more enthusiasm to work in it.. because you and your friend will have two machines, so would share experiences and stuff. 2010-06-25 08:58 bartbes: no matter.. it is just the current talk 2010-06-25 08:59 I like how zear was happy with his nn and hard was to work with it at the beggining.. so I really wanted to get one 2010-06-25 08:59 and how hard* 2010-06-25 08:59 wolfspraul is reading irc archives anyway (or at least sometimes he is) 2010-06-25 08:59 so we would be two 2010-06-25 09:00 I'll certainly try to show off my NN as much as possible at LCA2011 2010-06-25 09:01 I'm sure there'll be quite a bit of interest 2010-06-25 09:01 i meant to show it off at pyconau, but turns out they sold out 2010-06-25 09:01 oh you're in sydney for that are you? 2010-06-25 09:01 nah, i am in sydney 2010-06-25 09:01 regardless of pycon :P 2010-06-25 09:01 Oh, cool, I'm in Hobart 2010-06-25 09:02 ah, cool :) 2010-06-25 09:02 we'll have to make an NN posse or possibly do a miniconf talk in jan 2010-06-25 09:02 where is lca 2011? 2010-06-25 09:02 brisbane 2010-06-25 09:02 hrm, not bad 2010-06-25 09:03 freespace: arctanx: perhaps you can show jlime as well? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDoGNwM_zggÂ Â :) 2010-06-25 09:04 sure :) 2010-06-25 09:04 rafa: that's awesome, I should give it a go once I manage to get SD boot working 2010-06-25 09:05 arctanx: jlime always works on sd.. it is not hard. 2010-06-25 09:05 i need a) less pilots running b) less business documents to write c) more caffine 2010-06-25 09:05 rafa: I'm having trouble even getting u-boot to run my kernel, but I'll definitely check it out 2010-06-25 09:06 arctanx: if you use the bootloader, kernel, and rootfs from jlime.com you will not have problems to boot jlime 2010-06-25 09:06 rafa: okay I'll give it a go sometime soon 2010-06-25 09:06 arctanx: freespace : I will upload that current rootfs today (the video rootfs) 2010-06-25 09:07 what I should do is come up with an entertaining 3-minute lightning talk with the nanonote as the topic 2010-06-25 09:07 those are run in front of the entire audience at the end of LCA 2010-06-25 09:07 and I have a little experience writing that kind of talk too 2010-06-25 09:09 does jlime have a graphical browser rafa? 2010-06-25 09:11 freespace: which kind of browser? 2010-06-25 09:11 web browser? 2010-06-25 09:11 yeah, sorry to be unspecific 2010-06-25 09:12 freespace: several.. it is based in OE, so the repo should have several of them. What we were happy always with the years, in hp jornadas, is using dillo 2010-06-25 09:12 and we would add dillo to main rootfs soon surely 2010-06-25 09:13 that's pretty awesome :D 2010-06-25 09:14 let me liberate a SD card :) 2010-06-25 09:14 freespace: but whatever distro you use, you can try links, links2, w3m, lynx, konkeror gtk1 2010-06-25 09:15 i would ideally like gfx support 2010-06-25 09:15 and managed to links2 running in graphics mode on openwrt 2010-06-25 09:15 but it's laggy, runs out of memory quickly, and is has graphic bugs 2010-06-25 09:15 needs swap if nothing else 2010-06-25 09:16 nn should have always swap.. 2010-06-25 09:16 every linux around should have swap 2010-06-25 09:16 still if you have 16GB of ram and use icewm 2010-06-25 09:16 i was looking at netsurf next 2010-06-25 09:17 maybe i forgot something when building my image 2010-06-25 09:17 but i have no swap :P 2010-06-25 09:17 haven't got around to fixing it 2010-06-25 09:18 been keeping strange hours due to working with ppl in the states 2010-06-25 13:40 hi channel from a sunny beach ;) 2010-06-25 13:41 hi man on a sunny beach 2010-06-25 13:41 anything new in this two days (question mark) 2010-06-25 13:42 that's a short question mark! 2010-06-25 13:42 but I couldn't really tell, I've mostly been lurking 2010-06-25 13:48 this silly mobile doesn't allow to use some marks when on chat (sigh) ok bartbes just asking too many hours without been hanged here see you later maybe 2010-06-25 13:48 maybe a hot girl showed up at the beach... 2010-06-25 14:42 Anybody get a card stuck in the sd slot?Â Â Mine won't come out and I'm debating if I should disassemble it to get it out. 2010-06-25 14:42 i think i got it once 2010-06-25 14:42 but i pressed it a couple of times and it went out by itself 2010-06-25 14:43 that's what she said 2010-06-25 14:43 Hmm.Â Â Mine presses in, but won't come out anymore.Â Â Nor is grabbing it with tiny pliers work. 2010-06-25 14:43 ^ 2010-06-25 14:43 pickaxe? 2010-06-25 14:44 in my experience all sd slots can be annoying 2010-06-25 14:44 mostly those that do not have the sd card sticking out 2010-06-25 14:54 Oh well, it's now a perma-card, the stuck sd is stopping the board from being pried up. 2010-06-25 14:56 you know you're going to spend every minute of your life trying to get the card out 2010-06-25 14:57 like everytime you use it you're going to try pressing the sd card 2010-06-25 14:57 first because you have hope 2010-06-25 14:57 then because it became a habit 2010-06-25 15:00 I'll develop an sd-card sized twitch which I'll carry to my deathbed. 2010-06-25 15:16 we really need to get rid of this "TV LCD" in Ya 2010-06-25 15:17 it just renders fonts less then 10 pt unusable 2010-06-25 15:17 i'm comparing with my 320x240 Nokia N73 LCD screen 2010-06-25 15:18 putty for symbian is displaying 5x7 fonts just AWESOME 2010-06-25 15:18 all because of straight dot lines, as i believe 2010-06-25 15:33 by the way, here's a little progress with utf-8 in Ben's console: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/utf-8.png 2010-06-25 15:33 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/utf-8_photo.jpg 2010-06-25 15:36 Wow, that's really cool. 2010-06-25 16:11 kyak: OpenWRT? 2010-06-25 16:11 yep 2010-06-25 16:34 Anyone know ho to get audio working under Debian? 2010-06-25 16:40 ezdagor: me :) 2010-06-25 16:41 I compiled my own kernel. 2010-06-25 16:41 http://sdschulze.dnsalias.org/~soeren/content/debian-nanonote-kernel.txt 2010-06-25 16:41 But be warned: you won't be able to play any compressed audio files. 2010-06-25 16:42 MPlayer uses floating-point by default, but the NanoNote doesn't have an FPU. 2010-06-25 16:48 lekernel: hi -- you the MilkyMist guy? 2010-06-25 16:49 sdschulze: do you have at some place public the .config you used for compiling the kernel? 2010-06-25 16:49 last weekend I was trying to emulate your steps but got no luck :( 2010-06-25 16:50 I should be able to find it. 2010-06-25 16:50 What didn't work? 2010-06-25 16:50 kernel was not booting :p 2010-06-25 16:51 oh 2010-06-25 16:51 sdschulze, hi, yes 2010-06-25 16:53 http://sdschulze.dnsalias.org/~soeren/content/nn-kconfig 2010-06-25 16:53 also, I tried to compile some kernel modules with the openwrt toolchain to put them on my debian /lib/modules, but I was not even getting the ipkgs... think I screwed it up at some point 2010-06-25 16:53 calamarz: would be kind if you could diff it to your .config 2010-06-25 16:54 calamarz: The ones I tried were not binary-compatible. 2010-06-25 16:54 (I hope I got the right file.) 2010-06-25 16:56 sdschulze: thanks man... still at job, but I'll keep trying this loong weekend :) 2010-06-25 16:57 lekernel: So there are plans to turn MilkyMist into a general-purpose CPU? 2010-06-25 16:58 not by myself but it can be done 2010-06-25 16:59 anyway it already contains a general purpose CPU that beats the proprietary Microblaze alternative by a 15-35% increase in speed 2010-06-25 17:02 Could it be even more boosted when implemented in an ASIC? 2010-06-25 17:02 due to the higher clock speed 2010-06-25 17:03 yes 2010-06-25 17:03 should run at ~8x the speed of the FPGA in 90nm for example 2010-06-25 17:04 maybe more 2010-06-25 17:08 lekernel: How complete is the free software toolchain for that kind of development, BTW? 2010-06-25 17:09 gcc is getting ok (people start to fix the ICEs) 2010-06-25 17:09 it's supported in 4.5+ 2010-06-25 17:09 the linux port isn't so good, lots of bugs, lots of dirty code and hacks, etc. 2010-06-25 17:09 that's why I won't use it and put RTEMS instead 2010-06-25 17:10 but if you want to fix Linux problems you're welcome 2010-06-25 17:11 Oh, I meant things like the synthesizer, the FPGA programmer, etc. 2010-06-25 17:12 there are good simulators 2010-06-25 17:12 (open source) 2010-06-25 17:13 Which one are you using? 2010-06-25 17:13 there are some JTAG programming tools of various qualities (usually mediocre, but the proprietary tool sucks too) 2010-06-25 17:13 and for synthesis open source solutions are totally non-existent 2010-06-25 17:14 gplcver mostly 2010-06-25 17:15 Is it better than Ikarus? 2010-06-25 17:15 about the same 2010-06-25 17:15 *Icarus 2010-06-25 17:15 though it has fewer bugs it seems 2010-06-25 17:15 but I haven't tested the latest icarus versions 2010-06-25 17:16 Latest?Â Â Development is going on again? :) 2010-06-25 17:17 Hm, is synthesis such a dark magic? 2010-06-25 17:20 synthesis is dark magic 2010-06-25 17:20 no, but developers are slackasses 2010-06-25 17:20 considering how much the synthesis tools companies charge for it anyway... 2010-06-25 17:21 emeb, that's not a good metric 2010-06-25 17:21 has used both gplcver and icarus verilog. Both are good. 2010-06-25 17:21 Thereby, they only *suggest* that it's hard. 2010-06-25 17:22 icarus is pretty durn good these days - can simulate large Xilinx designs fast & with equivalent results to modelsim 2010-06-25 17:22 well, sure, it's harder than writing an arduino flasher 2010-06-25 17:22 lekernel: :) 2010-06-25 17:23 but at least the LLVM project has the same level technical level as a synthesizer (imho) 2010-06-25 17:23 theoretically icarus can synthesize but I've never tried it. 2010-06-25 17:23 icarus synthesis is crap, you can't do anything with it 2010-06-25 17:23 not even the simplest led blinker 2010-06-25 17:23 still doesn't understand the purpose of Arduino. 2010-06-25 17:23 embedded computing for the masses. 2010-06-25 17:24 emeb: Why not just take an AVR directly? 2010-06-25 17:24 well sure - there you go asking hard questions. 2010-06-25 17:24 beats me - 2010-06-25 17:25 correct me, but isn't the Ard programming environment just a wrapper around gcc? 2010-06-25 17:25 arduino is about the community, technically there's almost nothing 2010-06-25 17:26 it's a gcc wrapper indeed 2010-06-25 17:26 instead of writing 'main.c' you write stubs that they pull together with their code & libs. 2010-06-25 17:26 yes 2010-06-25 17:26 but it's still just c 2010-06-25 17:26 keeps the newbs from having to deal with crt.s etc 2010-06-25 17:27 Use avr-libc. 2010-06-25 17:27 sdschulze, this assumes they know how to use a linker 2010-06-25 17:27 same with board and soldering iron 2010-06-25 17:28 I wouldn't use it, but I thing it's a great way to get folks going w/o too much hassle. 2010-06-25 17:28 plus the bootloader is pre-flashed, so they don't even have to use an ISP download cable 2010-06-25 17:29 downside of that is they can't buy vanilla AVRs - they have to get 'em pre-flashed w/ bootloader. 2010-06-25 17:29 market opportunity for folks like Sparkfun selling flashed AVRs to the ARD set. 2010-06-25 17:30 well, that's a bargain 2010-06-25 17:30 the biggest downside (imo) is the amount of buzz and quackery surrounding it 2010-06-25 17:30 lekernel: So MilkyMist started as an academic project of yours? 2010-06-25 17:32 no, it started before I was at university, and then I had to write a thesis on something 2010-06-25 17:33 ah, nice 2010-06-25 17:34 is currently 3 months before university. 2010-06-25 17:34 I had the idea of the project in may 2007 actually 2010-06-25 17:34 back then I hadn't touched an fpga :) 2010-06-25 17:35 what kind of thesis?Â Â Bachelor/Master/PhD? 2010-06-25 17:35 master 2010-06-25 17:37 now I'm done with studies :) 2010-06-25 17:38 My intention is that I'm interested in making CPUs more friendly towards high-level programming languages with all their sanity checks and polymorphism. 2010-06-25 17:43