2010-06-08 00:00 hmm yeah, 256MB ram + 768 swap here :-) 2010-06-08 00:00 maybe for NN opkg is the better solution 2010-06-08 00:01 if someone killed all the bugs meanwhile ;-) 2010-06-08 00:01 DocScrutinizer: we have used opkg with 16MB of ram in HP Jornadas.. it is not nice yet, but it works at least 2010-06-08 00:03 well, as long as it's not yast/red-carpet :-P 2010-06-08 00:03 with mono XP 2010-06-08 00:03 :D 2010-06-08 00:04 that shit easily brought machines with 512mb ram and 1G swap to a grinding halt 2010-06-08 00:06 I means, when ps shows me *.exe processes - on a unix machine - LOL 2010-06-08 00:07 but I think they fixed it some 3 years ago 2010-06-08 00:08 even before SuSE became OpenSuse 2010-06-08 00:09 n8 2010-06-08 00:48 in ¬ ! 2010-06-08 00:55 gbraad: welcome 2010-06-08 00:55 in my dreamy eyes, you are Mr. FPGA and Mr. Fedora! 2010-06-08 00:55 :-) 2010-06-08 00:58 gbraad: I think one time you said somewhere you looked at Elphel but found the CPU too exotic? 2010-06-08 00:58 so when I got one and built the toolchain and rootfs from scratch I was surprised how smooth it was 2010-06-08 00:58 just a few hours, all was done 2010-06-08 00:58 I expected worse from your comment. Did you run into big problems back then? 2010-06-08 00:59 mostly experience from colleagues. they weren't so satisifed by it 2010-06-08 00:59 do you remember details? 2010-06-08 00:59 which part caused the dissatisfaction? 2010-06-08 01:00 it must have been the general feel to them as they had done more work on ARM before (as they joined our team for the software porting) 2010-06-08 01:01 hmm, OK 2010-06-08 01:01 we will try to get Elphel 353 supported in OpenWrt 2010-06-08 01:01 i am curious about this :) 2010-06-08 01:01 tonight at the blug they have a talk about openwrt 2010-06-08 01:02 :-s 2010-06-08 01:03 I will attend the meeting as I have a meeting with someone; loongson will offer me hardware for the Fedora MIPS port ;-) 2010-06-08 01:05 I am thinking about a mobile Elphel, battery+spartan-6+cmos sensor, no CPU 2010-06-08 01:07 so everything in the spartan; very flexible 2010-06-08 01:07 afk 2010-06-08 01:07 want to focus the time on free tech, much more fun 2010-06-08 01:11 it is. but for example getting fedora on the Milkymist? I consider it not possible yet... ;-) 2010-06-08 01:12 targetting mips is an easy step to a larger market of cheap chinese netbooks and maybe workstations 2010-06-08 01:13 i still imagine a OLPC sugar running an a Nanonote+ 2010-06-08 01:14 noticed Jon was also in town 2010-06-08 01:18 wolfspraul: i know this might be an unappropriate question or even wrong in terms of copyleft paradigma, but does Qi-hardware actually earn money? Was your comment about employees coming at morning with their own money just a turn of speech or a joke? :) 2010-06-08 01:19 he he 2010-06-08 01:19 why unappropriate? 2010-06-08 01:19 no definitely nobody makes money right now, same is true for distributors 2010-06-08 01:19 asking other people about money is unappropriate :) 2010-06-08 01:19 but that's OK, no problem here we knew this before 2010-06-08 01:19 depends on the culture 2010-06-08 01:19 hugely different between cultures 2010-06-08 01:20 since I am so global nowadays whatever it is, I go with the flow 2010-06-08 01:20 so right now this is a bare enthusiam? 2010-06-08 01:20 no I think it's a real business opportunity 2010-06-08 01:20 how do you see it? 2010-06-08 01:20 copyleft hardware 2010-06-08 01:21 but it's not a way to earn money, is it? 2010-06-08 01:21 why not? 2010-06-08 01:21 you give it away for free? 2010-06-08 01:21 for others to copy 2010-06-08 01:21 the knowledge, yes for sure 2010-06-08 01:22 i'll ask it in a different way: to earn money, you need to sell something. What are you going to sell? 2010-06-08 01:22 Ben NanoNote, 99 USD 2010-06-08 01:22 we will try to drive the price down, and software (usability) up 2010-06-08 01:25 ok, i was thinking of NN and it's price (which is already quite low) as a means to compensate for some current expenses.. I thought there was something bigger :) 2010-06-08 01:26 Ben NN is a thing for enthusiasts, it will never sell like iPad 2010-06-08 01:29 enthusiasts? no I think we can make it useful to everybody 2010-06-08 01:29 also, the more compnies will use your copyleft hardware, the less users will buy it from you? 2010-06-08 01:30 I doubt that. If another company would join (which would be the awesomeost thing that could happen), then we would both advance the state of technology 2010-06-08 01:31 it would be nice to make it useful for everyone, but right now NN is for those who are let's say "technically educated" 2010-06-08 01:31 yes but let's make it easier and easier. first for ourselves, then for everybody. 2010-06-08 01:32 i can't disagree with that! :) 2010-06-08 01:32 actually, i;m quite impressed with people coming here 2010-06-08 01:32 and their level of expertise 2010-06-08 01:33 especially when they start talking about FPGA :) 2010-06-08 01:33 the progress in the first year of NanoNote was amazing 2010-06-08 01:33 if we can continue at the same rate in the second year things will be pretty interesting 2010-06-08 01:33 but anyway, meanwhile we enjoy the path 2010-06-08 01:34 how long did it take from the start of development to the first production sample? 2010-06-08 01:34 I like my NanoNote, and the idea of slowly using it more and more. 2010-06-08 01:34 hmm, 'production sample' don't know exactly what you mean 2010-06-08 01:34 we worked with a manufacturer and opened up an existing device 2010-06-08 01:35 it took us 9 months until we actually started selling 2010-06-08 01:35 from 0 to Ben NanoNote 2010-06-08 01:35 now let's see how long it takes us to Ya, I think it's at least another 6 months out 2010-06-08 01:35 we need to sell some more Ben 2010-06-08 01:35 that's fast.. what it used to be before? you said existing device 2010-06-08 01:35 which can only work, as you noticed, if we can make software and content more valuable 2010-06-08 01:36 electronic dictionary 2010-06-08 01:37 localization (that's what i'm afraid of most when i get my NN) - specifically, cyrillic input 2010-06-08 01:38 have no idea right now how it will work in openwrt :) 2010-06-08 01:42 what will the ya have? 2010-06-08 01:42 kyak: yes, great, we should work on that 2010-06-08 01:42 the main thing holding me back from a ben nanonote is lack of gpio personally 2010-06-08 01:42 if i bought one i won't kno what to do with it 2010-06-08 01:42 kyak: we have a lot of customers in Japan, and I think they are using Japanese console fonts just fine 2010-06-08 01:42 but we need to bring more of that into openwrt, I agree 2010-06-08 01:43 so I think we are trying to get fbterm into openwrt, for example 2010-06-08 01:43 I don't know all details of all hacking activities, you would need to look into the openwrt sources yourself 2010-06-08 01:43 but I am definitely very very interested to get good cyrillic support 2010-06-08 01:43 out of the box 2010-06-08 01:45 freespace: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ya_NanoNote_Specs 2010-06-08 01:45 that's all very speculative, but we started working on 'next-gen' features last year and got a lot of feedback 2010-06-08 01:45 it's all about Ben though this year 2010-06-08 01:45 there are literally endless little things we can improve in Ben software 2010-06-08 01:46 and this will all carry forward to Ya, so it's time well spent while we also make the Ben more useful 2010-06-08 01:49 yep :) 2010-06-08 01:51 ah, i see you have ardunio in there, excellent 2010-06-08 01:51 i liked the Ya specs 2010-06-08 01:51 a usb host would be sufficient, then we can use bus pirate with it 2010-06-08 01:52 and it would be an awesome mini debugging tool 2010-06-08 01:52 why there is no bluetooth though? 2010-06-08 01:52 easy add on 2010-06-08 01:52 ? 2010-06-08 01:52 if we get usb host, bt dongles are dime-a-dozen 2010-06-08 01:52 you're right 2010-06-08 01:57 freespace: yes definitely, we are all on the same page 2010-06-08 01:58 USB host, more memory, some RF connectivity 2010-06-08 01:58 :D 2010-06-08 01:58 but like I said, whatever we improve in Ben software now, will all carry forward 2010-06-08 01:58 yep 2010-06-08 01:58 just look at all the work going on right now, it's excellent 2010-06-08 01:58 so, the ben NN has no usb host, except on the developer board? 2010-06-08 01:58 kernel upstream effort, so mcuh work in the openwrt distro 2010-06-08 01:58 jlime, deian 2010-06-08 01:58 debian 2010-06-08 01:59 maybe with gbraad's help we can even start a fedora effort (biggest problem seems to be 32 MB ram) 2010-06-08 01:59 freespace: correct 2010-06-08 01:59 little things like better console fonts, better localization options (cyrillic was just mentioned, japanese, chinese, etc) 2010-06-08 02:00 there are endless things we can improve, and are currently working on, with a happy state of mind :-) 2010-06-08 02:00 I use my Ben only for note-taking right now. 2010-06-08 02:00 I could use it as a music player too, maybe that's next. and alarm clock. 2010-06-08 02:00 very simple things 2010-06-08 02:01 dictionary and wikipedia would also be cool for me, but not there yet 2010-06-08 02:01 actually, i might buy a NN and do that 2010-06-08 02:01 i really like the "repository of knowledge" idea 2010-06-08 02:01 like hitch hiker's guide to the universe 2010-06-08 02:01 and modify it to run off solar panels 2010-06-08 02:01 or at least charge off one 2010-06-08 02:02 and give it away to remote communities 2010-06-08 02:02 i like that idea, where is my CC 2010-06-08 02:03 freespace: yes that would be awesome 2010-06-08 02:03 there are several offline wikipedia efforts but they all need help 2010-06-08 02:03 one is www.openzim.org 2010-06-08 02:03 nice, saves me googling 2010-06-08 02:04 others work with the .tar.bz2 dumps 2010-06-08 02:04 https://launchpad.net/wikipediadumpreader 2010-06-08 02:04 http://users.softlab.ece.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html 2010-06-08 02:04 yes, it saves you googling, but... 2010-06-08 02:04 many people have already looked into this, it's a lot of work to get to work really well 2010-06-08 02:05 nod 2010-06-08 02:05 i will do my research :) 2010-06-08 02:05 so for the time being we are improving the fundamentals of the kernel/distribution/OS 2010-06-08 02:05 personally I believe in the openzim effort for a long time, but then I kind of lost hope there because the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't really seem to be behind it 2010-06-08 02:06 so I will try to .tar.bz2 based text readers next 2010-06-08 02:06 noted 2010-06-08 02:06 at least those dumps are regularly created for all wikimedia wikis, which is a huge chunk of work already done 2010-06-08 02:06 yep 2010-06-08 02:06 some people looked into those readers recently, found some inefficiencies that would probably need to be improved before they would run well on a NanoNote 2010-06-08 02:07 but anyway, I don't believe something like this will just fall from the sky one day. it's a lot of pieces that need to move in place. 2010-06-08 02:07 yep, i understand 2010-06-08 02:07 theoretically the NanoNote could be an awesome offline reader, with color TFT, even spoken Wikipedia (it has a speaker) 2010-06-08 02:07 but that's just theory 2010-06-08 02:07 :-) 2010-06-08 02:07 :) 2010-06-08 02:12 freespace: there was a good mail about this recently on our list, trying to find it... 2010-06-08 02:14 thanks wolfspraul :) 2010-06-08 02:16 freespace: http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-May/000703.html 2010-06-08 02:17 nice, thanks! 2010-06-08 02:18 ah, i see 2010-06-08 02:20 thank you wolfspraul :) 2010-06-08 02:20 yeah, well. if you would buy one, and hack on this, it would be ... don't know. 2010-06-08 02:21 phenomenal! 2010-06-08 02:21 :-) 2010-06-08 02:21 that is the plan :) 2010-06-08 02:22 it is always fun working with limited resources :) 2010-06-08 02:22 makes one more ... creative in the problem solving 2010-06-08 02:23 definitely 2010-06-08 02:23 which distributor is "preferred" for nanonote purchase? 2010-06-08 02:23 where do you live? 2010-06-08 02:23 australia 2010-06-08 02:23 buy directly from sharism.cc, the warehouse and fulfillment is in Hong Kong 2010-06-08 02:23 nod, awesome 2010-06-08 02:23 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Shipping_Notes 2010-06-08 02:24 rather like all the electronics shops in hk 2010-06-08 02:24 we have some quite good and active guys in Australia, I think Mark Adrian Bell is there for example 2010-06-08 02:24 seeedstudio is another .hk shop i am quite fond of 2010-06-08 02:25 i will keep that name in mind 2010-06-08 02:25 maybe he will be coming to pycon in sydney in a few wks' time 2010-06-08 02:25 you can announce that you are going there on the developer list 2010-06-08 02:25 or I can try to connect some of our Australian users, just need to be careful about privacy and spamming 2010-06-08 02:25 a most excellent idea 2010-06-08 02:25 yeah 2010-06-08 02:26 so if they ordered, and didn't check the 'subscribe to announcements' button, I will not contact them 2010-06-08 02:26 nod 2010-06-08 02:26 but other than that sure, always like to help connect people 2010-06-08 02:26 yeah we already don't keep any credit card data on our servers 2010-06-08 02:27 and you can buy without creating an account 2010-06-08 02:27 yay 2010-06-08 02:27 pet hate: make an account to purchase 2010-06-08 02:27 maybe we should also delete data of customers who don't want to be talked to after 30 days or so 2010-06-08 02:27 i never understood why they want to put more barriers between my money and their account 2010-06-08 02:27 I totally hate all these tricky things to drill into people's minds. 2010-06-08 02:27 So that they always remember the company. 2010-06-08 02:28 in a bad way! 2010-06-08 02:32 zedstar: hi there 2010-06-08 02:32 our old Nepal thing just came to my mind again 2010-06-08 02:32 any news there? we are working on some localization improvements, Japanese, Chinese, someone just mentioned Cyrillic 2010-06-08 02:35 wolfspraul hi....that demo was accepted.....also got a small amount of money for a small pilot study.. 2010-06-08 02:36 wolfspraul now trying to see if funding to develop some SDL style apps like the pdf search engine 2010-06-08 02:38 wolfspraul re: nepal well sujan got accepted to some 2 week programme in india which is funded/hosted by microsoft so ive told him to make some useful connections 2010-06-08 02:38 nice 2010-06-08 02:38 what does this mean practically? how can we make the Ben NanoNote more useful for the Nepali users you are thinking about? 2010-06-08 02:39 is there anything practical we can do? 2010-06-08 02:39 like some fonts, some particular software 2010-06-08 02:41 wolfspraul personally i think the launcher side of things would be useful to improve......with a core set up apps like pdf view, search, wiki reading etc 2010-06-08 02:43 ok 2010-06-08 02:43 nothing Nepal specific then right now. keep me posted because those are requirements I wouldn't come up with myself. 2010-06-08 02:44 wolfspraul sure. does not have to be focused only on nepal....have also contact now with some people that did a project in kenya also 2010-06-08 02:46 wolfspraul i will have some more time soon as term finishing up....have some personal projects with the ben then will start work on the pdf search engine 2010-06-08 02:49 cool 2010-06-08 02:49 which distribution do you work on? openwrt? 2010-06-08 02:50 wolfspraul openwrt as i put a little bit of effort in to learn having used openembedded before 2010-06-08 02:51 wolfspraul basically anything that helps builds the dependencies....not such a fan of a standard alone toolchain 2010-06-08 02:53 stand alone even 2010-06-08 02:53 just woke up 2010-06-08 05:46 wolfspraul: have read the intentions (I also know long term) on the work on the elphel cam, can I suggest to add to the specs the 1039 card features? maybe changing CF by SD, and what was the intention? still targeting to industrial alike appliances or you have in mind to turn it a little bit general porpouse handy cam? 2010-06-08 05:54 tuxbrain_away: yeah, very long term :-) 2010-06-08 05:54 I am just thinking 2010-06-08 05:54 intention is cheaper, focus on free technology 2010-06-08 05:54 those are the 2 main things I am thinking about 2010-06-08 05:58 tuxbrain_away: have you seen the vid? :D 2010-06-08 05:58 I guess integrating the connectors and then using fpga to make the "virtual chips" to control them (ala milkymist style)  should not increase much the price 2010-06-08 05:59 yeah emdete :) way to go the "Hello world" of any arduino haker blinking led !!! 2010-06-08 05:59 just one step beyond of course 2010-06-08 06:01 tuxbrain: exactly it's along those lines 2010-06-08 06:02 thanks to milkymist I think we have the usb, ethernet, sd, and serial also there, so only the SATA interface should be worked on 2010-06-08 06:02 which vid are you guys talking about? 2010-06-08 06:02 well, if all of those things would work stable or at all, which they don't 2010-06-08 06:02 but with Milkymist we have no more excuse 2010-06-08 06:02 so worst case if nobody helps we will do it ourselves line by line. but I am hoping we can count on some support, so far seems to be quite good... 2010-06-08 06:03 heheheh wolfgang first steps of emdete with the Arduino board 2010-06-08 06:03 oh nice 2010-06-08 06:04 a bunch of led blinking in secuence , "artistically" attached directly to the board 2010-06-08 06:06 hope one day is the SACK board on what I do the demos :P 2010-06-08 06:08 knows is more up to him than anything else 2010-06-08 06:10 emdete: replace the yellow led with some flat red ones on line and you can tune up your car as the knight rider :P 2010-06-08 06:11 on line-> inline 2010-06-08 06:41 tuxbrain: that was the idea, yes! :D :D 2010-06-08 06:48 tuxbrain: so next i will do a serial protocol to talk to pyneod :) 2010-06-08 06:48 hi all!! 2010-06-08 06:49 tuxbrain: allways with crazy ideas 2010-06-08 06:49 :P 2010-06-08 06:50 wolfspraul: i own you at least two emails 2010-06-08 06:51 going to work (bbl as methril_work) 2010-06-08 06:52 methril: you only owe me your happiness and good spirits. no worries I know you are out there and we are committed... 2010-06-08 06:52 maybe catch you later... 2010-06-08 07:21 i´m back 2010-06-08 07:21 wolfspraul: i´ve news about bringing nice prototype gadgets 2010-06-08 07:28 ah nice 2010-06-08 07:31 about the Elphel camera we talked recently, I already sent it to mirko 2010-06-08 07:31 he was quite excited about it and will try to get OpenWrt to support it, so let's first see how that works out 2010-06-08 07:40 wolfspraul: oh!! what a pitty!! i was also excited but the bureaucracy and taxe rates get me sad 2010-06-08 07:40 wolfspraul: there are some nice projects as SAKC and Milkymist ;) 2010-06-08 07:41 methril_work: no worries this is not lost 2010-06-08 07:41 not at all 2010-06-08 07:42 methril_work: with all those things moving right now, I suggest we give David and mirko some time and see what happens 2010-06-08 07:42 I still have a 3rd one I can give to you, but I wanted to start using it myself to record videos 2010-06-08 07:42 then we can either send one to you, or get a 4th one :-) 2010-06-08 07:43 or produce our own, even better :-) 2010-06-08 07:43 we'll see 2010-06-08 07:43 methril_work: these projects all connect together, and we will try to generate as much cross-support as possible from them 2010-06-08 07:43 so what are your news? 2010-06-08 07:44 hello, which is the max size for a Linux kernel in NAND? 2010-06-08 07:45 my news are that the products could be sent as Engineering Samples 2010-06-08 07:46 and theys should pass without all the taxes 2010-06-08 07:46 without applying all the taxes 2010-06-08 07:46 here we have import taxes. transistion between states taxes and state taxes 2010-06-08 07:47 the simplest way is some of you goes to LinuxCon Brazil or FISL and bring one toy 2010-06-08 07:51 xiangfu: Hey, hello. I have a short question for you :) : Do you know which is the max size (possible) for a Linux kernel in NAND? 2010-06-08 07:52 rafa: i don`t thing there is a NAND size limit for kernel 2010-06-08 07:53 yeah, but perhaps boot loader has some limits that it can manage perhaps? 2010-06-08 07:54 methril_work: I ask because I tried to put a kernel file with a little initramfs inside, but boot loader was not able to boot it 2010-06-08 07:55 you need to get a compressed kernel or uncompressed one 2010-06-08 07:55 u-boot copies  the kernel from NAND to RAM and uncompress it 2010-06-08 07:55 the recent u-boot supports lzma bz2 bzip .... 2010-06-08 07:56 you must load the kernel first and later execute the initramfs 2010-06-08 07:57 methril_work: I can build/boot kernel without initramfs.. but when I build a kernel with a initramfs inside it stucks .. with bad data crc 2010-06-08 07:57 so I was guessing that bootloader was not able to manage that bigger one. But perhaps I am wrong 2010-06-08 07:58 but i think that u-boot only supports ramdisk image 2010-06-08 08:00 you have to pass the initramfs as init command 2010-06-08 08:02 mmh.. ? I just enable "Initial RAM filesystem and RAM disk". Then I specify an "Initramfs source file" 2010-06-08 08:03 kernel uses that initramfs if it is there.. I do not need to specify an init kernel command.. or do you mean some init bootloader command? 2010-06-08 08:04 but you need to copy the initramfs to RAM and set the initramfs pointer to the memory location 2010-06-08 08:04 methril_work: is not the kernel doing that? 2010-06-08 08:05 in x86 yes. in other archs no 2010-06-08 08:05 i never try it in MIPS 2010-06-08 08:05 but i know is working in some ARM archs 2010-06-08 08:06 wait.. when you specify a "Initramfs source file" you put inside the kernel the initramfs. It knows about it and it uses it. BUt perhaps nobody in the earth has tried that before? :) (in mips) 2010-06-08 08:06 I have tried in ARM and SH archs 2010-06-08 08:06 x86 of course 2010-06-08 08:06 if the kernel knows about RAM it just does the work 2010-06-08 08:07 the initramfs is inside the kernel, it is not a special file outside.. 2010-06-08 08:07 maybe you need to take a look the RAM address and add a aditional boot command to u-boot 2010-06-08 08:08 methril_work: the initramfs is part of the kernel file.. why would we like to add some additional boot command to u-boot? 2010-06-08 08:08 you mean that uboot should says something to the kernel about RAM that it has not said before? 2010-06-08 08:09 if it´s embedded into the kernel maybe you are missing some info on the kernel to boot it properly 2010-06-08 08:09 or you get out of RAM (usually the kernel copies and decompress at the last memory address) 2010-06-08 08:10 i don´t know exactly the NN implementation 2010-06-08 08:10 I know that when you embedded into the kernel the kernel already knows about it when building.. but I do not know what is happening.. the problem is before the kernel starts to boot.. 2010-06-08 08:11 rafa: different question - does JLiMe support patented codecs like MP3, MPEG4, H.264? 2010-06-08 08:11 for uboot it should be the same I guessed, like any other kernel, but bigger 2010-06-08 08:12 xiangfu is the u-boot and initramfs expert, too bad he's not in the channel right now 2010-06-08 08:12 and you specify that bigger size to u-boot? 2010-06-08 08:12 i could not access to NN right now 2010-06-08 08:12 but i take a look tonight 2010-06-08 08:13 wolfspraul: we have madplay which knows how to play mp3. Other formats no IIRC. We have mplayer (with those craps codecs) but as extra package.. 2010-06-08 08:13 ok but in general in the JLiMe project you don't care to disable/configure out patented stuff? 2010-06-08 08:14 sounds like if you have madplay by default, and the video codecs probably in the package repository 2010-06-08 08:14 methril_work: I think that I can not specify options to uboot. Well, we can re build it with more options perhaps :) 2010-06-08 08:14 namesake. sorry that i could not give you more help 2010-06-08 08:14 you could through serial line 2010-06-08 08:14 rafa: there is no problem with that (no patent policy at JLiMe), but it means that we need to keep the Qi copyleft hardware wiki & server resources and JLiMe separate 2010-06-08 08:15 wolfspraul: yes, we have not had care about to disable/configure out patented stuff. BUt that is because nobody started to talk about, which we should 2010-06-08 08:15 remembers have to take a look to a sw taht access the u-boot params in linux systems 2010-06-08 08:15 yeah but that's a separate discussion and a clean IP boundary is good anyway 2010-06-08 08:15 I will write an email with our latest thoughts on the Qi patent policy to the list 2010-06-08 08:16 the goal is to protect everybody's freedoms, no worries we will get this right eventually 2010-06-08 08:16 time to back to work 2010-06-08 08:16 wolfspraul: sure, /about to keep the Qi copyleft resources separate).. 2010-06-08 08:16 the openwrt project introduced the patented flag and helped us generate an image and package repository that can be configured to a state that the hardware won't infringe on patents 2010-06-08 08:17 which is important for the people that are touching (selling) the hardware in certain countries 2010-06-08 08:17 so we can always bundle the openwrt software (with those flags in place) with the hardware 2010-06-08 08:17 and other software needs to have their own home, but that shouldn't be a big problem 2010-06-08 08:17 crappy lincense patents abuse 2010-06-08 08:17 yeah 2010-06-08 08:18 I just hope the fact that you can recompile openwrt from source to include them back in, or get binary packages from upstream (though on links that are not documented/promoted by Qi) will not become a problem 2010-06-08 08:18 eventually we have to ship the hardware just as some pieces of dead plastic to avoid the patent nonsense :-) 2010-06-08 08:19 wolfspraul: I think that we (jlime) should not patented stuff. But we have not talked about never IIRC. It is there just because the bazaar Jlime story 2010-06-08 08:19 the last legal advice we got said that as long as the out-of-the box image can't do it, and it's not installable via mechanisms setup by the manufacturer, we should be safe 2010-06-08 08:19 no problem, no stress 2010-06-08 08:19 we first need to get this right for copyleft hardware and especially the copyleft hardware distributors in patent-affected countries 2010-06-08 08:20 I think that we (jlime) should not have patented*... 2010-06-08 08:20 ok but that's your decision 2010-06-08 08:21 and a lot of people may feel why should 80% of the world suffer for a stupid system that the top 20% of the world has setup 2010-06-08 08:21 I like openwrt's solution of having a flag 2010-06-08 08:21 I hope that allows us (the manufacturer) to separate ourselves enough from patented codecs so that we don't infringe on those patents 2010-06-08 08:21 to the best of my knowledge it does 2010-06-08 08:22 wolfspraul: well, we have no discussed that before, so there is not decision there, it is just our bazaar story 2010-06-08 08:23 rafa: Hi. don't know that. 2010-06-08 08:23 hey 2010-06-08 08:24 xiangfu: hey, okey, no problem. I will check further and I will try to realize that using tests :) 2010-06-08 08:24 rafa: ok :) 2010-06-08 08:26 wolfspraul: it will be great if you write about Qi thoughts/decisions about patented stuff, so others (like Jlime) can think a bit about :) 2010-06-08 08:26 wolfspraul: that is not an easy topic to talk, because you need to know it a lot 2010-06-08 08:48 wolfspraul: what about other distros?.. should we remove all the debian links from our web sites? (I am talking about mp3 decoder for example).. All the main distributions have mp3 players and decoders/encoders.. 2010-06-08 08:54 rafa: the point is to keep the hardware and software separate 2010-06-08 08:54 or rather to only bundle hardware with software that will not make the combination infringe on someone's patents 2010-06-08 08:54 so yes, we will move the Debian stuff from the Qi wiki into a Debian on NanoNote blog that is separate 2010-06-08 08:55 for JLiMe this is all easy because JLiMe always has been a pretty clearly separated project 2010-06-08 08:55 so the people that are distributing copyleft hardware can say "we have nothing to do with JLiMe" and can do so in a legally correct way 2010-06-08 08:57 that sounds good, perhaps we should write on wiki a bit about "why it is a good thing to separate differnt kind of stuff") 2010-06-08 08:59 Greetings, I'm looking for expertise advice about systems engineering. I want to build a computer from scratch. I've got Linux from Scratch for the software aspect, but I've not been able to find a satisfactory resource for the hardware equivalent. 2010-06-08 08:59 \nick IDMclean 2010-06-08 09:00 IDMclean: hey welcome! 2010-06-08 09:00 :-) 2010-06-08 09:00 now it gets interesting - how do you want to define 'from scratch' in hardware?/// 2010-06-08 09:00 there are wildly different approaches here, and many many projects 2010-06-08 09:01 I'm a big believer in the upcoming Milkymist One, that's definitely a 'computer', but a loooot of work 2010-06-08 09:03 wolfspraul, the aim of my endeavor is to understand how the system works at the machine level. I've got the abstract theories regarding circuits mediating logical operations and such. I kinda understand how to put boards together, and I can assemble a computer fully from motheboard-daughterboard components. I want to bridge the gap between that and high level programming. 2010-06-08 09:03 hmm 2010-06-08 09:03 many years ago I used to build my own computers 2010-06-08 09:04 back then that meant chosing a mainboard, maybe a CPU 2010-06-08 09:04 then put some memory inside, and ISA cards, later PCI 2010-06-08 09:04 I think what 'building a computer' meant has changed dramatically over the last 30 years 2010-06-08 09:05 in mobile/embedded it's becoming hard again, everything is integrated by processes that require very high-end equipment 2010-06-08 09:05 soldering a large BGA chip onto a board is not like plugging a PCI card into your mainboard 2010-06-08 09:05 and I doubt anybody wants to grow their own silicon and cut slices from it for photolithography :-) 2010-06-08 09:06 Indeed. 2010-06-08 09:06 Not yet anyway. 2010-06-08 09:06 well to give you a serious answer to your question, one would know a lot of parameters on your end 2010-06-08 09:06 how much time and money you want to spend 2010-06-08 09:06 what you plan to get out of it in the long run 2010-06-08 09:07 for notebooks the concept of 'build my own' already barely exists 2010-06-08 09:07 maybe some mini-PCI cards, some ram 2010-06-08 09:07 for smartphones? not at all 2010-06-08 09:07 so I don't really know what to tell you 2010-06-08 09:07 the Ben NanoNote is a very integrated, mass-produced little pocket computer 2010-06-08 09:07 I don't think you can learn what you are looking for from it. 2010-06-08 09:08 I'm studying mechatronic engineering with an emphasis in artificial intelligence, life, simulation, and game design. 2010-06-08 09:08 wolfspraul: i talked to a guy in a forum some time ago that wanted to make his own micro-sd card 2010-06-08 09:09 IDMclean: If you want to run Linux you're naturally going to have to have an architecture supported by Linux -- unless you have a lot of free time, that's going to amount to at least buying an off-the-shelf CPU. You'll have to work out where to draw the line though 2010-06-08 09:09 Ideally, I would like to build a box to experiment with building living operating systems. 2010-06-08 09:09 Ideally, I want FOSS. 2010-06-08 09:11 A good descriptor of what I want is a laboratory in a box. If I can peel open all the hardware and software, it would be ideal. I'm going to build a custom linux distribution on it, so I've already started thinking about what kind of constraints I'm going to follow regarding manufacturers. 2010-06-08 09:12 I'd like to experiment with using parallel and non-von Neumann architectures. 2010-06-08 09:13 ouch 2010-06-08 09:13 for me it sounds like you need to introduce a few more real-life constraints 2010-06-08 09:13 check out Milkymist One 2010-06-08 09:13 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One 2010-06-08 09:13 IDMclean: there is some really custom CPUs out there, but i don't think they are capable of running Linux 2010-06-08 09:14 IDMclean: What you're talking about would probably require writing half a compiler and hacking a lot of Linux code 2010-06-08 09:15 That's part of the plan 2010-06-08 09:15 Writing your own OS for whatever CPU you build is certainly possible. Just a lot of work to make it more than a toy 2010-06-08 09:16 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ 2010-06-08 09:16 IDMclean: a really good example would be Magic-1 (runs a port of Minix 2)-> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ 2010-06-08 09:16 linux from scratch won't help you to make linux support your platform 2010-06-08 09:16 I'm going to take the time and effort to systematically go through the tutorials they provide. 2010-06-08 09:17 LFS is basically a guide for if you have a bog-standard x86 PC which is already running a host linux system with a compiler 2010-06-08 09:17 Ornotermes, I am aware of the fact. This is most certainly a long term project. I want to learn to write drivers. 2010-06-08 09:18 IDMclean: maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't FPGAs give you the tools to do just what you want? 2010-06-08 09:18 parallellism etc, your own CPU? 2010-06-08 09:18 I still think you should also check out Milkymist One, or in fact the Milkymist project 2010-06-08 09:18 morning 2010-06-08 09:19 but maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the goal is... 2010-06-08 09:19 wolfspraul, at the moment the goal is to poll experts about what is and is not possible or feasible. 2010-06-08 09:19 ^_^ 2010-06-08 09:20 hello. 2010-06-08 09:20 what's the topic? 2010-06-08 09:20 I want to build a computer from scratch. 2010-06-08 09:20 good lord 2010-06-08 09:20 copylefted, I assume? 2010-06-08 09:20 Yes 2010-06-08 09:20 IDMclean: On an unrelated note, if you want to learn to write drivers, check out http://lwn.net/Kernel/LDD3/ (free PDF) or "Essential Linux Device Drivers" by Venkateswaran. I can recommend both 2010-06-08 09:20 Thank you. 2010-06-08 09:20 well, not unrelated 2010-06-08 09:21 you asked about drivers. but it won't help you build a computer 2010-06-08 09:25 is wearing out C-r looking at the fedex page... a nanonote in China isn't much use 2010-06-08 09:25 The purpose of attempting this is to learn computer engineering from the bottom up and theoretical computer science from the top down. Mainly, I'm looking for learning resources to better understand how and what my motherboard and it's component parts are doing. 2010-06-08 09:27 So what would I need beyond LFS to get linux working with a custom board? 2010-06-08 09:27 IDMclean: in Milkymist One you have it all in free source form 2010-06-08 09:27 the CPU, the compiler/toolchain, the realtime or Linux kernel, and everything above 2010-06-08 09:28 I wouldn't know how more to build a computer 'from scratch' than that 2010-06-08 09:28 depending on your interests, you could modify the (soft)-CPU, or write an entirely new (soft)-CPU 2010-06-08 09:28 IDMclean: With a standard architecture (ARM, MIPS) or your own design? 2010-06-08 09:28 of course if you modify the lowest level, the CPU, then everything above needs to go along, toolchain, kernel, etc. 2010-06-08 09:29 but if you don't align this well with others, even 5 lifetimes won't be enough to ever get your computer to do anything useful 2010-06-08 09:29 I think time is another thing you should factor in. When do you want to be finished? 2010-06-08 09:30 Circa ten years. 2010-06-08 09:31 IDMclean: have you been fooling around with off shelf microcontrollers? 2010-06-08 09:31 No. 2010-06-08 09:33 my best bet is still Milkymist, especially for a 10-year project :-) 2010-06-08 09:33 but that's selfish, I like Milkymist 2010-06-08 09:34 you should seriously think carefully before you invest 10 years of your time (which is I guess what you are doing...) 2010-06-08 09:34 That's part of this process, I'm looking for where to start. I've been told to look into circuit design before. I looked, found it unsatisfactory because it didn't link with my programming experience. I'm less interested with the electrical engineering. 2010-06-08 09:35 a project like Milkymist allows you to really dive deep into parallelism, yet stay (mostly) in a software world 2010-06-08 09:35 I'm willing to learn it as I go to end up with a minimalistic computer that meets my specifications. 2010-06-08 09:35 any FPGA project allows you this 2010-06-08 09:35 so let's just say "fpga computer" 2010-06-08 09:35 k 2010-06-08 09:35 doesn't need to be Milkymist, that's just one instance 2010-06-08 09:36 I'm confortable with that. 2010-06-08 09:36 milkymist is an fpga computer, at least i plan use the MM1 as one 2010-06-08 09:36 or webserver or something 2010-06-08 09:37 IDMclean: if you have any plans to make your own CPU you should learn some assembler(since that is a part of what your compilers would use) and how a CPU executes the code and work with memory and registers 2010-06-08 09:37 btw i learning that with the Milkymist 2010-06-08 09:38 IDMclean: One possibility, if you're keen on linux and the programming angle, is to study the kernel code thoroughly. If you ever want to run it on custom hardware you'll have to be intimately familiar with it anyway, and if you understand it you'll have a really good idea of how the hardware fits in with all the high level software 2010-06-08 09:38 I'm on that currently. I'll be taking assembly soon, and I'm in the thick of studying architectures, automata theory, and the likes. 2010-06-08 09:39 arctanx, any recommendations on learning resources for kernels? 2010-06-08 09:39 Not really. That's a work-in-progress for me, and my conclusion is that it moves so damn fast that you just have to make do with things like that LDD3 book and try not to drown in all the code 2010-06-08 09:40 and changing APIs 2010-06-08 09:40 lower-level stuff, like how it boots on a particular class of processor, should be relatively stable though 2010-06-08 09:42 The project I have in mind right now involves putting a variation of a genetic algorithm in control of automatically developing an OS. The working name I have for it is LifeOS. The idea is to make an OS for the machine's use that meets the criterion for life. 2010-06-08 09:45 In order for me to adequately design the algorithm for such a thing, I need to know what the machine can do, so I can specify the genomic representation of the OS to match the interface (I/O, language, networking) of the computer. 2010-06-08 09:47 Any idea where I would look to learn about BIOS design? Or would that be covered by LDD3? 2010-06-08 09:50 uboot or milkymist bios could help 2010-06-08 09:50 pmon is other bios 2010-06-08 09:50 bios/bootloader 2010-06-08 09:50 thats other discussion 2010-06-08 09:50 back to work 2010-06-08 09:51 Ornotermes, eventually I do plan on learning how to make CPUs and GPUs. I have a sketch for a processor architecture that I want to eventually implement. Hopefully, by the time I get to the place where I could implement it, we'll have first or second generation consumer grade quantum processors. 2010-06-08 09:51 Thank you, kristianpaul. 2010-06-08 09:52 quantum processors will ne nice 2010-06-08 09:53 Especially their oracle abilities. 2010-06-08 09:54 kristianpaul: where are you testing milkymist ? Do you have a FPGA board? 2010-06-08 09:55 methril_work: i will, so far i'm using qemu 2010-06-08 09:55 and hopefully icarus verilog soon* 2010-06-08 09:56 methril_work: i bought an avnet spartan-3 2010-06-08 10:01 kristianpaul: uff!! so expensive to bough any electronic device done outside at the country where i live:( 2010-06-08 10:02 methril_work: it is 49usd 2010-06-08 10:02 is cheapest i can find 2010-06-08 10:02 methril_work: where you live btw? 2010-06-08 10:02 i'm located in colombia btw 2010-06-08 10:02 well. if you have to pay 60% of import taxes and some others ... it gives expensive 2010-06-08 10:03 i´m living right now in Brazil 2010-06-08 10:03 but i´m spanish 2010-06-08 10:03 but is cheaper thta buy fpga to local dealers 2010-06-08 10:03 not here 2010-06-08 10:03 ocuh 2010-06-08 10:04 hax what? 2010-06-08 10:04 ops 2010-06-08 10:05 How much for a Milkymist? 2010-06-08 10:06 milkymist is not for sale yet. 2010-06-08 10:07 also not known when it will be as currently only bare pcb for prototyping exist 2010-06-08 10:15 What's the entry point for system-on-a-chip and pcb design? 2010-06-08 10:17 I've been thinking about acquiring an Arduino to learn more about hardware. 2010-06-08 10:26 IDMclean: another option is getting a AVR-programmer and use any avr8-chips 2010-06-08 10:38 Ornotermes, what's the comparative differences? 2010-06-08 10:45 Thanks everyone for your feedback. I appreciate the critiques and recommendations. 2010-06-08 10:45 Enjoy. ^_^ 2010-06-08 10:47 IDMclean: you get more control over the hardware (making your own PCBs, and components of your choice). Also you cna wite code in many languages. Cheaper since you can skip components you dont need 2010-06-08 13:27 if anyone's interested, here's a picture with a size comparison of some handheld devices, including the ben nanonote: http://wejp.k.vu/gp2x/pandora-size-comparison 2010-06-08 13:35 wejp: how do the keyboard on ben feel compared to pandora? 2010-06-08 13:36 the ben's keyboard has buttons with a click, while the buttons of the pandora have not such a strong click but are more soft 2010-06-08 13:39 nice 2010-06-08 13:39 it is a little easier to type on the pandora's keyboard, because the buttons are a little more separated, but the ben's keyboard is okay too, once one get used to it 2010-06-08 13:41 and the power of the pandora compared to the Ben? 2010-06-08 13:42 wejp: that sounds nice :) 2010-06-08 13:42 you mean power as in cpu power or as in battery power? ;) 2010-06-08 13:44 as for the cpu, the pandora's cpu is very fast, the xfce desktop runs really nicely on it 2010-06-08 13:44 as for the battery, the battery life is really amazing, with wlan turned on all the time it lasts almost 10 hours 2010-06-08 13:45 wejp, lucky bastard you got all of the cool consoles ;) 2010-06-08 13:45 zear, hehe ;) 2010-06-08 13:45 though on the other hand i only lack two from that picture ;) 2010-06-08 13:45 which ones? ;) 2010-06-08 13:46 pandora and a330 2010-06-08 13:46 :) 2010-06-08 13:47 i had to pay money for my pandora, i did not get it for free ;| 2010-06-08 13:47 well, i had to pay for all of my toys ;) 2010-06-08 13:47 including the nn ;P 2010-06-08 13:47 i got my a330 for free :) 2010-06-08 13:47 paid for the a320 and gp2x though 2010-06-08 13:48 yeah, i was told i'm getting one, but i guess things changed as i didn't get it in the end :P 2010-06-08 13:48 oh :( 2010-06-08 13:48 but it is noth that different from the a320 anyways, so you are not missing all that much ;) 2010-06-08 13:48 but hearing from stephanie that her unit died after a couple of days, maybe that's for the better someone saved the money ;) 2010-06-08 13:50 oh, mine didn't die yet, but i did not have the time to play with it that much yet either 2010-06-08 13:50 btw wejp if you like gmu on handhelds with keyboards, i can port it to jornada 720 ;) 2010-06-08 13:51 oh, what kind of device is the jornada 720? 2010-06-08 13:51 a bigger cousin of the nanonote ;) 2010-06-08 13:52 ah :D 2010-06-08 13:52 ok, i've googled the device :D 2010-06-08 13:53 incredible how much money people pay for getting a pandora :O 2010-06-08 13:53 http://cgi.ebay.de/Pandora-Handheld-One-of-the-first-from-OpenPandora-/320542763412?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Video_Games&hash=item4aa1d66994 2010-06-08 13:53 $1875 2010-06-08 13:54 i should sell mine ;) 2010-06-08 13:54 wejp, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/zear/pictures/p1010823.jpg 2010-06-08 13:55 cool :) 2010-06-08 13:58 oh wow, is that auction for real? 2010-06-08 14:05 by the way, is there any space in ben for another PCB? 2010-06-08 14:06 wejp: you know where is the shippment order list? 2010-06-08 14:07 I want to know what numer I am 2010-06-08 14:07 I also want my pandora!!! 2010-06-08 14:08 Ornotermes: in addition to the one it has? 2010-06-08 14:11 tuxbrain: yes 2010-06-08 14:19 ecual size than existing no, a smoller one with very thin components maybe, I succesfully attacha a 8 pin connector under the speaker, I have to "dremelize" part of the plastic but it fits you can the pictures here 2010-06-08 14:19 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Serial_console#Hardware_mod_to_have_a_pluggable_serial_port 2010-06-08 14:20 too bad the base dont have any space in front of the battery 2010-06-08 14:21 it would have been a nice plave to put a tiny pcb 2010-06-08 14:23 [probably FAQ]: How supported is Debian on the NanoNote?  I flashed the image from pyneo, but most things were not really running. 2010-06-08 14:24 Is there any information on how they did the porting?  Did they just take the existing debian-mips port or is there anything non-trivial? 2010-06-08 14:26 sdschulze: what does "most things were not really running." mean for u? 2010-06-08 14:27 Shift-key was flawed for some chars, unable to load modules => no sound, only one tty working, etc. 2010-06-08 14:27 don't recall everything right now 2010-06-08 14:29 X ran, but the keymap was broken. 2010-06-08 14:30 sdschulze 2010-06-08 14:30 the pyneo image is crippled 2010-06-08 14:31 I realized. :))) 2010-06-08 14:31 use the one linked to from tuxbrain's tutorial 2010-06-08 14:31 my NN runs debian 2010-06-08 14:31 and its pretty good 2010-06-08 14:31 link? 2010-06-08 14:31 sure, sec 2010-06-08 14:32 http://www.tuxbrain.com/en/content/%E6%9C%AC-ben-nanonote-editingcompilingflashing-arduino-sketch 2010-06-08 14:32 only the first part is relevant 2010-06-08 14:32 its the sid image at http://mister-muffin.de/nanonote/debian-sid.ubi 2010-06-08 14:32 that works 2010-06-08 14:32 you'll want to add swap space 2010-06-08 14:32 I use a microsd card 2010-06-08 14:32 but I believe xiangfu li is using a swapfile on the ubifs 2010-06-08 14:33 if you don't add swap, apt will crap out on larger application installs 2010-06-08 14:33 I realized that, too. 2010-06-08 14:33 you can follow the xiangfu tutorial to run in sdcard  http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=535 2010-06-08 14:33 mine works pretty good 2010-06-08 14:34 I'm having a keymap issue atm 2010-06-08 14:34 and I couldn't add one because ubifs is so fragmented and Linux doesn't like that... 2010-06-08 14:34 but otherwise, I'm using my NN pretty often 2010-06-08 14:34 then use a microsd card 2010-06-08 14:34 mkswap /dev/mmcblk0p1 2010-06-08 14:34 swapon /dev/mmcblk0p1 2010-06-08 14:34 boom 2010-06-08 14:34 OK 2010-06-08 14:35 (I was actually surprised how much I could even do without swap...) 2010-06-08 14:35 tuxbrain, there is no publich list, at least i'm not aware of one, but you can roughly estimate when your will be shipping, depending on when you've ordered yours. i think those who have recevied their device already all have ordered at the very first day when preorders started 2010-06-08 14:35 oh, sound also doesn't work out of the box 2010-06-08 14:35 but its pretty easy to get going 2010-06-08 14:35 and the speaker is LOUD 2010-06-08 14:36 nebajoth: as long as loading modules works... 2010-06-08 14:36 wejp It was some time ago than I don't remember if I do on the first day, or first week, or first decade 2010-06-08 14:37 yep, sdschulze 2010-06-08 14:37 when you ordered yours 2010-06-08 14:37 hehe, okay ^^ 2010-06-08 14:37 that's what I meant by "easy fix" :P 2010-06-08 14:37 BTW, what's the best way to choose a smaller console font, so I can have at least 72 chars or semthing like that... 2010-06-08 14:37 there's a mailing list thread about that 2010-06-08 14:39 nebajoth: Is there any documentation about how that other image was made? 2010-06-08 14:39 http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-May/000653.html 2010-06-08 14:39 sdschulze: not to my knowledge. 2010-06-08 14:40 except for an off the cuff statement or two on the pyneo site 2010-06-08 14:40 nebajoth: I mean the mister-muffin.de one. 2010-06-08 14:40 I haven't any idea 2010-06-08 14:40 ask tuxbrain 2010-06-08 14:41 ask pineo :P 2010-06-08 14:42 I think emdete is hanging here time to time 2010-06-08 14:42 wejp: I have ordered mine on 01-10-2008 2010-06-08 14:43 that's one day after preorders started 2010-06-08 14:43 tuxbrain: So the mister-muffin.de one is a fixed pyneo.org image? 2010-06-08 14:44 sdschulze: I think is a prove of concept to build a more complete one but you sould better ask to pyneo about it, I just download it and check that it works 2010-06-08 14:47 wejp:so..... why I don't have a pandora at my hand and this moment, hum? :P, just joking (sigh) If I have waited for .... what now... a year and 8 months? I can wait a couple of weeks more... or two months :P 2010-06-08 14:48 hehe, yeah, i guess it shouldn't take too long for you anymore, but otoh who knows? ;) 2010-06-08 14:48 So there is no "official" Debian-on-Nanonote project? 2010-06-08 14:49 no 2010-06-08 14:49 it turns the NN into a general purpose computer 2010-06-08 14:49 which comes with certain patent endangering potentials 2010-06-08 14:49 the management of the project are leery of trolls 2010-06-08 14:50 so they've explicitly disabled support for proprietary codecs in their tailored openwrt image 2010-06-08 14:50 and discourage the use of any firmware that might re-enable it 2010-06-08 14:50 which debian certainly does 2010-06-08 14:50 I personally am not affiliated with the project beyond participation in the mailing list 2010-06-08 14:50 I use debian, and like it 2010-06-08 14:51 talking abour it, nebajoth is the NN-Deb site to forward the tuxbrain articles there? 2010-06-08 14:51 not yet, tuxbrain 2010-06-08 14:51 have been a little short on time 2010-06-08 14:51 I'll get something up this weekend by the latest 2010-06-08 14:51 ok just ping me 2010-06-08 14:52 and thanks a lot :) 2010-06-08 14:52 my pleasure 2010-06-08 14:54 I'm really piss off on that situation, I'm a debian lover, supporter and advocate so you can understand how painful is to me to banish my own created content from my own site... man it hurts just thinking aboutn it :( 2010-06-08 14:55 debian users are usually the ones wagging their fingers at other distros 2010-06-08 14:55 for including things like proprietary codec support by default 2010-06-08 14:55 I find it really ironic that its too proprietary for us 2010-06-08 14:56 gNewSense? 2010-06-08 14:56 could do 2010-06-08 14:56 Would that remove patent problems? 2010-06-08 14:56 yeah, if it has the non-free tag... why don't they include those patent stuff there? 2010-06-08 14:57 probably 2010-06-08 14:58 gnewsense has a lot of emphasis on desktop 2010-06-08 14:58 and 2010-06-08 14:58 it looks like its based on ubuntu? 2010-06-08 14:58 ubuntu doesn't have a mips port 2010-06-08 14:59 faq sais is based on debian 2010-06-08 14:59 k 2010-06-08 15:00 sorry this was 3.0 2010-06-08 15:00 actual one 2.3 is based on Ubuntu 2010-06-08 15:00 sh%&t 2010-06-08 15:00 tuxbrain: because it's not non-free in the sense of copyright 2010-06-08 15:01 I'm instantiating a community website dedicated to Debian on the NN, sdschulze 2010-06-08 15:01 I just haven't had time to put it up 2010-06-08 15:01 work has been a bit busy 2010-06-08 15:01 I've only been procrastinating for two days though 2010-06-08 15:01 this is a fairly recent development 2010-06-08 15:02 sdschulze: so in what sense? money? 2010-06-08 15:02 tuxbrain is just impatient to get his stuff online :P 2010-06-08 15:02 heehehe :) yeah you start to knowing me 2010-06-08 15:02 :P 2010-06-08 15:03 needs a clever name 2010-06-08 15:03 sharismers.org 2010-06-08 15:03 nanonoters.org 2010-06-08 15:04 nanodebianiters.org 2010-06-08 15:04 haha 2010-06-08 15:04 nanodeb.net 2010-06-08 15:04 I like the last one 2010-06-08 15:04 its not bad 2010-06-08 15:05 UnlockYourNanonote.com 2010-06-08 15:05 hehehe pissoffonsoftpattentsusingnanonote.org 2010-06-08 15:06 haha 2010-06-08 15:06 fuckoffitsnotanmp3player.org 2010-06-08 15:06 hahahaha 2010-06-08 15:06 tuxbrain: Things like LAME are free software in the sense that they are under a free copyright license. 2010-06-08 15:09 sdschulze: ok thanks :) 2010-06-08 15:11 lame and libmpg123 are free software but mp3 patent holders don't like them very much 2010-06-08 15:11 tuxbrain, sdschulze: the lines of code for LAME might be free 2010-06-08 15:11 but yes 2010-06-08 15:11 what xdpirate said 2010-06-08 15:11 the codec itself requires licensing 2010-06-08 15:11 which sucks 2010-06-08 15:11 it does. 2010-06-08 15:12 meh, guess i'll have to mass convert all my music to ogg or flac then 2010-06-08 15:13 tuxbrain: I assume the Debian migration is already in progress. 2010-06-08 15:13 there do seem to be a lot of debian users 2010-06-08 15:13 quick question: is it possible to connect the nn as a mass storage device, so i can transfer files without being close to a linux computer? i usually don't drag my pc with me when on vacation etc :P 2010-06-08 15:14 windows pcs are everywhere, and connecting as a mass storage device would simplify putting stuff on it when not having access to a linux pc 2010-06-08 15:15 well most pcs have a sd cardreader or you can take one with you 2010-06-08 15:16 "most"? 2010-06-08 15:16 I've hardly ever seen an sd cardreader on a workstation 2010-06-08 15:16 laptops more often 2010-06-08 15:17 urandom_, yeah, that's true, but can you connect so you get access to the internal nand memory? 2010-06-08 15:17 xdpirate: How can you read the ubifs from a Windows PC? 2010-06-08 15:17 ah 2010-06-08 15:17 true 2010-06-08 15:17 i don't actually have my nanonote yet 2010-06-08 15:17 still in the mail 2010-06-08 15:18 nebajoth newer pcs have them, well maybe most was too much 2010-06-08 15:18 even if the PC can read the file system, it's not possible to access it at the sector level from both the PC and the device 2010-06-08 15:19 anyone have more feature requests for dex before it's released? (must be doable in a terminal as of now) 2010-06-08 15:19 http://www.qqmore.info/?cat=7 2010-06-08 15:19 so you'd have to put the device in a special mode where it does not run its normal applications 2010-06-08 15:20 is it an option to run Samba on the NN? 2010-06-08 15:20 i hope the Ya will get two mircosd slots instead of NAND 2010-06-08 15:20 samba would be sweet, but doesn't windows generally have problems with usb networking? 2010-06-08 15:22 I don't know, I don't have Windows anymore 2010-06-08 15:22 on the Mac the Dingoo's ethernet over USB works fine without drivers 2010-06-08 15:23 tuxbrain, nebajoth: It seems like even gNewSense includes patent-covered codecs, though. 2010-06-08 15:23 xdpirate what about installing linux on a pendrive or using a live cd? 2010-06-08 15:24 meh, i'll just install ubuntu on my old laptop and bring that, lol 2010-06-08 15:25 you can always use winscp for transferring files, but I don't know if you need drivers as well 2010-06-08 15:27 tuxbrain: what about nanohack.net? 2010-06-08 15:27 xdpirate: techically posible also some trys but seems there is some DMA stuff to beat on kernel to make it working 2010-06-08 15:30 nebajoth: not bad but depending on what your intentions are if is for create a debian community nanodeb.net is better, if is for more generical nanonote "dirty" hacks not having space on official wiky due  legal materrs then nanohack.org is best 2010-06-08 15:31 nebajoth: What do you have in your sources.list? 2010-06-08 15:47 I want to get the fedora mips port working on the NN 2010-06-08 15:49 and possibly gentoo later on 2010-06-08 15:49 I don't really want to make it debian specific 2010-06-08 15:49 although obviously that's our first concern righ tnow 2010-06-08 15:49 right now 2010-06-08 15:49 just deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian sid main, sdschulze 2010-06-08 15:50 nebajoth: mips or mipsel? 2010-06-08 15:51 with that goals in mind then nanohack.org fits better 2010-06-08 15:53 nebajoth: So unlike for openwrt, where there is really a fork, it's just using the standard port? 2010-06-08 15:53 nanonote is mipsel 2010-06-08 15:54 pretty much 2010-06-08 15:54 re: standard port 2010-06-08 15:54 needs custom kernel 2010-06-08 15:54 and xboot 2010-06-08 15:54 but otherwise its a pretty standard debian 2010-06-08 15:54 OK, yeah 2010-06-08 15:56 anybody else got an opinion on nanohack.net/org? 2010-06-08 15:56 good?  bad? 2010-06-08 15:58 nanohacks.org? 2010-06-08 15:59 that could be good 2010-06-08 15:59 if you want to pay for a domain name 2010-06-08 15:59 You could also host at Sourceforge or somewhere. 2010-06-08 16:02 I don't mind forking over $10 2010-06-08 16:03 yes nanohacks sounds better 2010-06-08 16:06 .net or .org? 2010-06-08 16:06 .org 2010-06-08 16:09 even though nanohacks.net is alliteration? 2010-06-08 16:10 well i dont really care, it just came first on my mind 2010-06-08 16:10 i'm in the process of preparing my 8 gb sd-card for when the nanonote arrives 2010-06-08 16:10 how should i format it? 2010-06-08 16:11 ext2 if you want debian on it 2010-06-08 16:11 and what does openwrt support? 2010-06-08 16:11 i'd like fat32 if possible, so i can use both on my windows and my linux pcs 2010-06-08 16:12 I hope you mean micro-sd card 2010-06-08 16:12 of course 2010-06-08 16:12 i think is used one card with fat32 on the ben with openwrt 2010-06-08 16:12 :P 2010-06-08 16:13 micro-sdhc 2010-06-08 16:13 alright, fat 32 it is then 2010-06-08 16:13 does blocksize matter? 2010-06-08 16:17 my cards came preformated with fat32 so dont know 2010-06-08 16:17 ah kk 2010-06-08 17:50 could someone help me find why my NN only gets icmp traffic on NAT? 2010-06-08 18:10 waves 2010-06-08 18:36 Okay, are binaries compatible between debian and openwrt? 2010-06-08 18:40 And while I'm there, has anyone gotten the debian SD card to work? 2010-06-08 18:55 lekernel: i found out that you were in hamburg recenlty 2010-06-08 18:55 indeed 2010-06-08 18:55 lots of milkymist stickers in the basement room 2010-06-08 19:00 haha 2010-06-08 19:00 i'm not the only one putting them :) 2010-06-08 19:00 but yes, I was in Hamburg 2010-06-08 19:02 FrankBlues: in general, my experience is that there is no binary compatibility between Linux distros unless you link all libs statically 2010-06-08 19:02 Flargh. 2010-06-08 19:03 zear's ports run on both Dingoo and NanoNote because of static linking 2010-06-08 19:03 I've got debian on an SD card booted, and I'd love to be able to run the stuff that's on my nanonote's openwrt partitions... 2010-06-08 19:03 but it does increase the binary size 2010-06-08 19:03 (or at least access it...) 2010-06-08 19:04 ah, but you could use chroot 2010-06-08 19:04 So zear's stuff should run under debian? 2010-06-08 19:04 I think it would 2010-06-08 19:04 So that makes it an issue of just mounting filesystems... 2010-06-08 19:04 with chroot you'd be using both the libs and the executables of the other distro, only keeping the foreign kernel 2010-06-08 19:09 Thanks mth, I'll have to look into that when I have a minute, right now I have to work on dinner... heh... 2010-06-08 19:32 yes hello 2010-06-08 19:39 hi nebajoth 2010-06-08 19:46 hello tuxbrain 2010-06-08 19:46 I registered nanohacks.org earlier 2010-06-08 19:47 :), you need hosting? 2010-06-08 19:47 nope 2010-06-08 19:47 I'm a sysadmin for an ISP that does hosting 2010-06-08 19:48 I'm putting it on one of our servers 2010-06-08 19:48 heheehehe :) 2010-06-08 19:48 ok I just have one debian dedicated server 2010-06-08 19:48 is it your nanonote? :D 2010-06-08 19:49 hehehehe , a little bigger than that, but hey I have a lot of NN maybe I can do a nanoserver farm 2010-06-08 19:53 I dare you 2010-06-08 19:53 to beowulf cluster 100 NNs 2010-06-08 19:54 into a crazy server farm 2010-06-08 19:57 tuxbrain: define "a lot" :P 2010-06-08 19:57 he sells them 2010-06-08 19:57 whether nanonote has USB host 2010-06-08 19:57 oh 2010-06-08 19:57 The day I sell 1000 nanos(whatever version)/month for tree consecutive months I will reserve 100 just for doing that, It is written it should be 2010-06-08 19:57 ? 2010-06-08 19:58 zxcvb: no 2010-06-08 19:59 but, at http://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/netbooks/296251:a-review-ben-nanonote-gets-small-with-embedded-linux    , it is mentioned that it has USB host 2010-06-08 19:59 so then linux.com is wrong 2010-06-08 19:59 but at qi hardware website there is no mention of it in the technical specs at http://sharism.cc/specs/ 2010-06-08 19:59 okay, fine 2010-06-08 19:59 at least until Ya nanonote hits the real world 2010-06-08 20:00 there is a usb host controller in the JZ4740 chipset, I believe 2010-06-08 20:00 but there's nothing connected to it 2010-06-08 20:00 afaik 2010-06-08 20:00 i remember there was lots of request for usb host feature from developers on the mailing list. Whether it got included in the ROADMAP atleast 2010-06-08 20:01 yes, usb host would be epic. 2010-06-08 20:01 usb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist 2010-06-08 20:01 without it many of embedded app developers with plans for analog devices connecting to it ARE HANDICAPPED today 2010-06-08 20:01 analog devices? 2010-06-08 20:02 such as? 2010-06-08 20:02 tuxbrain got the NN talking to an arduino 2010-06-08 20:03 could anybody help me find why my NN only gets ICMP traffic through NAT? 2010-06-08 20:04 like ecg signals or oxymeters taking analog signals from brain etc and then by A2D convertors converting them and sending them to nanonote for further processing on the digital data. No need for developing a custom digital circuit with embedded source code on say ARM/Atmega etc chipset 2010-06-08 20:04 most modules for embedded devices out there have an UART interface more than USB one, and BNN has an UART interfece 2010-06-08 20:04 Skuerzo: what device / OS does the NAT? 2010-06-08 20:04 my laptop with Gentoo, with iptables set to ACCEPT all 2010-06-08 20:05 Skuerzo, are you sure that you correctly configured nat itself? 2010-06-08 20:05 ACCEPT on the forward chain, I assume? 2010-06-08 20:05 Just after A2D one can use this device for digital processing with normal PC like programming but with embedded device like light wieght and portability 2010-06-08 20:06 Skuerzo, my gentoo configuration http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223388/ 2010-06-08 20:06 mth a iptables -L returns "Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT)" 2010-06-08 20:07 i don't know how bigg issue it will be but i worry a little bit over the i2c 2010-06-08 20:07 anyone managed to use hardware i2c or is it completely locked up by the keyboard? 2010-06-08 20:08 iptables -L http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223389/ 2010-06-08 20:08 iptables-save http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223390/ 2010-06-08 20:08 hardware I2C can only use two specific pins, software I2C can use any two GPIO pins 2010-06-08 20:08 Skuerzo, may be this will help you 2010-06-08 20:09 max_posedon i'll try it, thanks in advance 2010-06-08 20:09 Skuerzo, and btw, gentoo could works on BenNN 2010-06-08 20:09 I still have to change ips, my NN is running Debian atm 2010-06-08 20:09 (at least I get cross compiled glibc and uclibc basic systems) 2010-06-08 20:10 zxcvb: that linux.com arti> Jahre. Er hat zwar auch keinen USB-Hostmode, aber es gibt eine Dockingstation, 2010-06-08 20:10 > die das hat. Und es gibt unglaublich viel Software für das Ding. Ich habe 2010-06-08 20:10 (sorry) 2010-06-08 20:11 you can filter by input or output interface instead of IP address, if the IP address is not constant 2010-06-08 20:11 zxcvb: that linux.com article stands out with by far the most mistakes in any press coverage NanoNote had 2010-06-08 20:11 mth: yeah, i know, and as far as i can see those are used by keyboard, there for i wonder if someone managed to use them by modifing hardware and/or software 2010-06-08 20:11 we tried to correct it in many ways, before the article was published (!) and after, but oh well 2010-06-08 20:11 they have their 'working style' 2010-06-08 20:11 wolfsprual: :) 2010-06-08 20:12 yeah I can show you my email archives, where I am begging them to reply, call me, etc. along with the corrections, but no 2010-06-08 20:12 machine was moving forward 2010-06-08 20:12 the article is bad! 2010-06-08 20:12 long story short 2010-06-08 20:12 Ornotermes: the software I2C driver seems to work fine though, is there any particular reason you want to use the hardware I2C driver? 2010-06-08 20:12 thanx, i was thinking of purchasing 4-5 units after reading this article(regarding usb host) . But now i will wait 2010-06-08 20:14 mth: not really, but don't want to bit bang if i don't have to 2010-06-08 20:14 zxcvb: he, fair enough. It's good that we avoided that disappointment. 2010-06-08 20:14 of course I would still encourage you to buy one to start playing with the platform 2010-06-08 20:15 Ornotermes: Linux does the bit banging for you, in the i2c-gpio driver 2010-06-08 20:15 for Ya, the successor, the most likely thing right now is Ben + more memory + usb host (on-the-go) + RF 2010-06-08 20:15 for the RF, it could be Wi-Fi, or an ISM RF (ism = industrial scientific medial) 2010-06-08 20:15 but without that usb host, how do you even put usb pen drives on nanonote? 2010-06-08 20:15 i mean thats very basic 2010-06-08 20:15 there is a small chance we will get GPS included as well, but we have to be very careful that we are not aiming for too much with the Ya, and in the end come out with a crappy device 2010-06-08 20:16 mth: shure, but its still bitbanging... and as i said, i avoid that as much as i can 2010-06-08 20:16 I do agree with people who want a backlit keyboard like nebajoth. We already talked to the keyboard factory about it, we'll see. 2010-06-08 20:16 GPS would be really awesome i would it even prefer to wi-fi! 2010-06-08 20:17 Ornotermes: well, if the keyboard is connected to the I2C GPIO ports, then soldering those connections to different pins is the only way to use the hardware I2C support, I think 2010-06-08 20:17 zxcvb: of course it's basic. That's the beauty of it. We cannot do more than this right now, and many people are currently working on bringing this 'basic' hardware to its full potential. 2010-06-08 20:17 urandom_: me too, even if it has also some kind of slow-fi :) 2010-06-08 20:17 urandom_: ah, hi there. I wanted to say thanks for the wiki translations into German you did. Very appreciated! 2010-06-08 20:17 tuxbrain: both wi-fi and slowfi is also an option 2010-06-08 20:17 but we have to be really careful 2010-06-08 20:17 Ornotermes: there is no way in the JZ SoC to select different pins for the hardware I2C, if that's what you wanted to know 2010-06-08 20:17 I will not do another freerunner prematurely 2010-06-08 20:18 uff not too much power draining? 2010-06-08 20:18 I need several years for that, and people have to go along and help (with sales and hacking). Then we can make it. 2010-06-08 20:18 tuxbrain: well you can turn on/off everything separately if it's done well 2010-06-08 20:18 but anyway, most likely that won't happen 2010-06-08 20:18 wolfspraul: thumbs up for endeavour of u ppl to make it realize its full potential 2010-06-08 20:19 the Ben is a beautiful piece of hardware, I think everybody agrees 2010-06-08 20:19 wolfspraul: ya 2010-06-08 20:19 mth: i was tinking och some kind och multiplexing, but it would probalby not be a very good idea either 2010-06-08 20:19 of course it's limited, we try to communicate the hardware specs as clearly as possible (linux.com was the worst offender). 2010-06-08 20:19 but the hardware it is, it's rock stable. 2010-06-08 20:20 Ornotermes: you'd have to share one resource between two unrelated drivers then; it would make a bit of a mess of the kernel I think 2010-06-08 20:20 that was one of the key things I learnt from my prior job at Openmoko. If we want to have a basis for free software, which develops slowly (like good cheese or wine :-)), then we must have stable hardware to work on. 2010-06-08 20:20 if the hardware is also a big construction site, everybody will loose 2010-06-08 20:21 and that's what we are executing now 2010-06-08 20:21 rock solid hardware, slowly better and better free software emerges 2010-06-08 20:22 wolfspraul: i agree 2010-06-08 20:22 but still i agree with nejaboth too (his statement usb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist  ) 2010-06-08 20:22 good, we are all roughly on the same page 2010-06-08 20:23 :) 2010-06-08 20:23 just please understand this is essentially a self-funded community project 2010-06-08 20:23 and that's what keeps it free 2010-06-08 20:23 so I will not trade that in 2010-06-08 20:23 usb-host is easy 2010-06-08 20:23 backlit keys is easy on the software side, but a lot of leg-work with vendors 2010-06-08 20:24 wifi is a best 2010-06-08 20:24 beast 2010-06-08 20:24 :-) 2010-06-08 20:24 mth: i was thining controling i2c-pullups could be controled by a fet connected to a gpio, and when i2c is reqested it turns off the keyboard raises pullups and do some stuff then turns i2c and pullups off and starts the keyboard again 2010-06-08 20:24 thanx from heart for the statement (that usb-host is easy) 2010-06-08 20:24 we are working on it 2010-06-08 20:24 again to not dissapoint anyone is 1.1 USB not 2.0 USB 2010-06-08 20:24 oh yeah, nobody ask for USB 3.0 and so please 2010-06-08 20:24 wireless usb :P 2010-06-08 20:25 mth: but then i could probably use bitbanged drivers as well 2010-06-08 20:25 wolfspraul: ya even usb 1.1 is ok 2010-06-08 20:25 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote_Wi-Fi 2010-06-08 20:25 btw, wi-fi in ben nanonote works today 2010-06-08 20:25 sometimes forgotten 2010-06-08 20:26 but the microSD card it is using (Spectec SDW-823) is 'expensive', so people are not crazy about that either 2010-06-08 20:26 ya once usb host comes in then addon wireless usb controllers will be easy to plugin by us only, no need to even support on core mother board (say) 2010-06-08 20:26 plus not much more money will be invested into it so it may disappear from the market soon 2010-06-08 20:26 wolfspraul: i was thinking of connecting a serial radio modem to a ben when i buy one (and use slip) :) 2010-06-08 20:26 usb device 2.0, better that usb-host+device 1.1, thats what I dislike in Freerunner 2010-06-08 20:27 is still dreaming of some kind of trackpoint for the Yi :P 2010-06-08 20:27 I'm dreaming about better software for the Ben. 2010-06-08 20:27 :-) 2010-06-08 20:27 that's the only thing that gives me a remote chance of moving a few more units, and that's the only thing that will make Ya happen. 2010-06-08 20:27 it's good pressure 2010-06-08 20:27 is just dreaming 2010-06-08 20:28 build a business, find customers, listen 2010-06-08 20:28 haha yes 2010-06-08 20:28 sdw-823 is 'expensive' 2010-06-08 20:28 because its the same price as the whole NN 2010-06-08 20:28 good night guys don't be to vervose , there are people willing to sleep here :P  see ya 2010-06-08 20:29 I'd accept bluetooth + a second unit with bluetooth and wifi 2010-06-08 20:30 night tuxbrain 2010-06-08 20:30 the company that did the SDW-823 went bankrupt over the many millions they invested in making this beautiful technology happen 2010-06-08 20:30 wolfspraul: what do you mean by "better software"? 2010-06-08 20:30 not Spectec, but KeyStream 2010-06-08 20:30 it's easy to lean back and complain about 'expensive', in the end we will all buy 99 USD iPads and iPhones 2010-06-08 20:31 hardware economics are really interesting 2010-06-08 20:31 nebajoth: 'better software', lots of things. For me the most important is that when I sell a unit, the out-of-the-box experience is great. 2010-06-08 20:32 I don't buy apple crap 2010-06-08 20:32 2 GB NAND packed full with great sw and content. fast gui. music player (ogg), video player, whatever you imagine 2010-06-08 20:32 and work pays for my blackberry 2010-06-08 20:32 someone bought a pandora for 1800$ or so: thats expensive 2010-06-08 20:32 that's what I need to sell more Ben = finance Ya, etc. 2010-06-08 20:32 then better software can also be Debian, JLiMe, Fedora 2010-06-08 20:33 what on earth is KLiMe 2010-06-08 20:33 er 2010-06-08 20:33 JLiMe 2010-06-08 20:33 better console apps (for me personally) 2010-06-08 20:33 yessss 2010-06-08 20:33 www.jlime.com 2010-06-08 20:33 console ftw 2010-06-08 20:33 although I'm finding even curses apps are usually too wide for the NN screen 2010-06-08 20:33 we already have a great music player, just need a video player and offline wiki 2010-06-08 20:33 sure, but you asked me what I mean with 'better software', so first for me it's software that helps me sell units 2010-06-08 20:33 then second it's what I want myself on the BNN 2010-06-08 20:33 hell, catting logfiles is a pain 2010-06-08 20:34 urandom_: yes! :-) 2010-06-08 20:34 I don't see the offline wiki thing 2010-06-08 20:34 the usefulness I mean 2010-06-08 20:34 how about dictionary? 2010-06-08 20:35 who cares about dictionaries, though? 2010-06-08 20:35 nobody in their right mind cares about dictionaries 2010-06-08 20:35 they just go to the nearest pc 2010-06-08 20:35 and use google 2010-06-08 20:35 hmm, a serial bluetooth module might be a good alternative to get internet in the ben 2010-06-08 20:35 i just hope love (or ulove) really gets ported to nanonote, that is all that is needed to make me happy 2010-06-08 20:35 nebajoth, people sometimes offline, I like my wikireaders, in bus in long travels 2010-06-08 20:35 wikireaders I understand 2010-06-08 20:35 ish 2010-06-08 20:35 dictionaries I don't 2010-06-08 20:36 is there enough space to capture wikipedia? 2010-06-08 20:36 in 2G? 2010-06-08 20:36 wouldn't that make a better add-on sd card? 2010-06-08 20:36 its sometimes nice, when you aboard 2010-06-08 20:36 sell wikipedia on a microsd 2010-06-08 20:36 and gprs in rouming very expensive to use 2010-06-08 20:36 urandom_: all you need is love....?.... :D:D sorry I can stand good night 2010-06-08 20:36 LURKER 2010-06-08 20:36 SPY 2010-06-08 20:36 SPANISH FLY ON TEH WALL 2010-06-08 20:38 lol yeah all i need is love 2010-06-08 20:38 JLiMe looks interesting enough, but I doubt it has a terrible large audience 2010-06-08 20:38 nebajoth people buy electronic dictionarys and they cost sometimes more than a nononote 2010-06-08 20:39 how does navigation in for example GTK work on Ben? 2010-06-08 20:40 having a GOOD dictionary for the ben would really be a killer app 2010-06-08 20:40 dictionary with pronounces - defenetly 2010-06-08 20:41 s/pronounces/sounds for most common words/ 2010-06-08 20:42 stardict is already good for my needs but i think needs some cleanup and nicer look and pronounces if possible 2010-06-08 20:44 I don't see it 2010-06-08 20:44 maybe I'm just too surrounded by computers 2010-06-08 20:44 or have too impeccable spelling :P 2010-06-08 20:45 its the best damned OGG player I've ever had 2010-06-08 20:45 and FLAC player 2010-06-08 20:45 in fact 2010-06-08 20:45 FLAC sounds amazing in my car 2010-06-08 20:45 from the mini out 2010-06-08 20:46 I am using it as a little `remind` box too 2010-06-08 20:46 I used vim to write a python script to check battery levels 2010-06-08 20:46 ON the NN, in the back seat of a truck on the way home from the cottage 2010-06-08 20:46 which was fun 2010-06-08 20:47 and also where I discovered that dusk means you can't see the red shift characters anymore 2010-06-08 20:47 although you can continue to see the others for a while 2010-06-08 20:47 if we CAN'T get backlighting on the Ya, we should at least change the colour from red to something more visible in low light 2010-06-08 20:48 if it is not possible to get back light, why not put one or two white led in the screen part, just like som thinkpads 2010-06-08 20:50 or sell it with a bigger and brighter screen :P 2010-06-08 20:54 what about use NN, and learn red keys in 5-10 days?) 2010-06-08 20:55 wolfspraul: ping 2010-06-08 20:56 pong 2010-06-08 20:57 just looking into an Indefero bug (projects.qi-hardware.com) 2010-06-08 20:57 seems when the first name is blank, it becomes '---' or so, and then the confirmation mails are not sent out 2010-06-08 20:57 something like that, still looking 2010-06-08 20:58 I would like to get some more action into the projects server, but first it needs to work really well 2010-06-08 20:58 I'm very happy with Indefero actually 2010-06-08 21:02 nebajoth: maybe some kind of fluorescent paint? 2010-06-08 21:03 not sure if biological fluorescent dyes last long enough though 2010-06-08 21:03 radioactive ones do, but then you have to be very careful about the conditions in the factory 2010-06-08 21:04 maybe just highly reflective paint is enough, since the LCD backlight is a strong light source 2010-06-08 21:05 mth: i had the same idea 2010-06-08 21:05 the unit is already a clamshell 2010-06-08 21:05 put an LED or two in the side with the screen 2010-06-08 21:05 fold the thing in half when the keys need to glow more 2010-06-08 21:05 resume work 2010-06-08 21:06 wolfspraul: projects server? 2010-06-08 21:06 also 2010-06-08 21:06 I registered nanohacks.org 2010-06-08 21:07 I just installed buddypress 2010-06-08 21:07 going to find a decent theme 2010-06-08 21:07 on my laptop, I actually use the bumps on F and J to type in the dark, instead of activating the key backlight 2010-06-08 21:07 then customize it 2010-06-08 21:07 but not everyone can type blindly, especially on a non-standard keyboard 2010-06-08 21:07 should put braille on all the letters :P 2010-06-08 21:08 nanohacks - nice 2010-06-08 21:08 is that where you plan to host the Debian stuff (replying to your mail still on my list...) 2010-06-08 21:08 braille keys + speech synthesis might be useful for blind people though 2010-06-08 21:10 wolfspraul: yes. 2010-06-08 21:10 tuxbrain and urandom_ helped me decide on the name 2010-06-08 21:10 we were going to go with nanodeb at first 2010-06-08 21:10 but I want it to be broader than debian 2010-06-08 21:10 nanohacks is cool 2010-06-08 21:10 I want to include fedora and gentoo later 2010-06-08 21:10 great 2010-06-08 21:10 did you meet up with the fedora mips project guys? 2010-06-08 21:11 lunch today I think 2010-06-08 21:11 aha 2010-06-08 21:11 but I will do this slowly 2010-06-08 21:11 I sent them an email 2010-06-08 21:11 first need to get to know gbraad 2010-06-08 21:11 yeah, he's the one that replied 2010-06-08 21:11 he's on the channel actually 2010-06-08 21:11 :O 2010-06-08 21:11 oh eah 2010-06-08 21:11 yeah 2010-06-08 21:11 gbraad hello :P 2010-06-08 21:11 don't expect quick results there 2010-06-08 21:12 that's what he said 2010-06-08 21:12 that's fine 2010-06-08 21:12 I'm not impatient 2010-06-08 21:12 32 MB is low, not sure fedora can target this today. they should, but we see. 2010-06-08 21:12 nebajoth, (gentoo) I think it won't be hard, I just successfully cross compiled uclibc and glibc for mips on gentoo (for uclibc few hacks requeired) 2010-06-08 21:12 we have some devel boards with 64 MB 2010-06-08 21:12 max_posedon: can you document what you're doing? 2010-06-08 21:12 I'd like to put it on nanohacks 2010-06-08 21:12 need to talk to gbraad first to understand the bigger picture 2010-06-08 21:12 gentoo's out-of-box support is good enough (for glibc configuration mainly) 2010-06-08 21:13 max_posedon: that's what I suspected 2010-06-08 21:13 I was a gentoo user for 5 years 2010-06-08 21:13 before ubuntu coaxed me away 2010-06-08 21:13 wolfspraul: could a ben board work with a 64 or even 128MB RAM chip? 2010-06-08 21:13 hello 2010-06-08 21:14 nebajoth, there is some cross compilation issues, but many of them was fixed during openmoko-stuff, and some even before. cross compilation is defently "another story" and uclibc is "another story" in square) 2010-06-08 21:14 Ornotermes: 64 mb yes, we built such boards for small runs 2010-06-08 21:14 gbraad: are we on track for lunch today? 2010-06-08 21:14 Flargh... debian is being molasses like on the nn... 2010-06-08 21:14 it seems so. I will be in caochangdi around 12 2010-06-08 21:14 ok 2010-06-08 21:14 nebajoth, I'll prepare docs as soon as I'll successfully run vim there. 2010-06-08 21:15 unfamiliar to the place, so bear with me 2010-06-08 21:15 thanks max_posedon 2010-06-08 21:15 FrankBlues: have you got swap space? 2010-06-08 21:16 Yeah... same amount as in the sd howto. 2010-06-08 21:16 see the messages about the fedora porting 2010-06-08 21:16 have recevied about 5 emails about us having to target the nanonote 2010-06-08 21:16 haha 2010-06-08 21:16 32mb is really small 2010-06-08 21:16 nobody said "have to" 2010-06-08 21:16 well 2010-06-08 21:17 I didn't 2010-06-08 21:17 LOL 2010-06-08 21:17 but it is a potential target 2010-06-08 21:17 as the alpha 400 is also ingenic based 2010-06-08 21:17 and that IS a target? 2010-06-08 21:17 not yet 2010-06-08 21:18 target now is Loongson 2010-06-08 21:18 and we gradually move to other MIPS based processors 2010-06-08 21:19 and yes, Ingenic is one of them in the longrun 2010-06-08 21:19 nebajoth: 65528 total swap 2010-06-08 21:19 although 32mb poses a big hurdle 2010-06-08 21:19 we will first create a mini fedora (base system with rpm) 2010-06-08 21:19 and see what will come from that 2010-06-08 21:21 perhaps it is more realistic to target the Ya 2010-06-08 21:22 FrankBlues: what are you running? 2010-06-08 21:22 Debian Sid from a 1gb sdcard. 2010-06-08 21:23 Ya? 2010-06-08 21:23 gbraad: Ya NanoNote is the successor of Ben NanoNote 2010-06-08 21:24 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ya_NanoNote_Specs 2010-06-08 21:24 earliest in 6 months 2010-06-08 21:24 next year :-) 2010-06-08 21:25 Ah, it is now called the Ya 2010-06-08 21:25 always was 2010-06-08 21:25 Ben Ya Mu Guo 2010-06-08 21:25 Guo is the iPhone killer, in 2020 2010-06-08 21:25 :-) 2010-06-08 21:25 I only know AVT2 2010-06-08 21:26 that's a small run devel board 2010-06-08 21:26 ok, just explain me more at the meeting 2010-06-08 21:26 :P 2010-06-08 21:26 FrankBlues: paste the Cpu(s) line of top? 2010-06-08 21:26 actually 2010-06-08 21:26 just pastebin top output 2010-06-08 21:27 I wonder if the Ben will run Dwarf Fortress 2010-06-08 21:28 wolfspraul: +86 1326 964 2794 just in case 2010-06-08 21:28 nebajoth: http://pastebin.com/7KHqfNrQ 2010-06-08 21:29 let's see 2010-06-08 21:29 98% idle 2010-06-08 21:30 load was bigger a few minutes ago 2010-06-08 21:30 have you stopped any processes? 2010-06-08 21:30 I just finished an apt-get 2010-06-08 21:30 you're using 1816k swap 2010-06-08 21:30 its probably all i/o slowdown 2010-06-08 21:31 was it moving like molasses during the apt-get? :P 2010-06-08 21:31 Yeah, I did an apt-get update then upgrade, and the config parts were molasses-like 2010-06-08 21:32 Then again, I should probably expect that. 2010-06-08 21:32 I need to go through the rc files and see what I can pare down (unused gettys, etc...) 2010-06-08 21:33 definitely expect that 2010-06-08 21:33 apt-get is pretty demanding on it 2010-06-08 21:33 aptitude won't even run for me 2010-06-08 21:33 it chokes 2010-06-08 21:34 there is a reason why openwrt is using opkg instead of apt-get :P 2010-06-08 21:36 for sure 2010-06-08 21:36 but opkg doesn't have 60 000 packages :P 2010-06-08 21:36 and it runs fine 2010-06-08 21:37 apt-get works great, as long as you have swapspace for it 2010-06-08 21:37 you just have to leave the ben alone for a few minutes 2010-06-08 21:37 which seems reasonable 2010-06-08 21:37 Yeah... 2010-06-08 21:37 I'm wondering if I should give jlime a shot on the nn 2010-06-08 21:38 if you do 2010-06-08 21:38 document it 2010-06-08 21:38 I'll put it on nanohacks.org 2010-06-08 21:38 its still a skeleton 2010-06-08 21:39 I don't feel like theming it tonight 2010-06-08 21:39 wolfspraul: it would be neat if you freed more GPIO in future versions, you could probably free a bunch of io by using shift registers and/or mux/demux-chips 2010-06-08 21:39 but I should have something solid up by the weekend 2010-06-08 21:39 Arrgh! "mount: unknown filesystem type 'ubifs'" 2010-06-08 21:39 :O 2010-06-08 21:40 can you modprobe it? 2010-06-08 21:40 Hang on, I'm in the middle of another apt wait. 2010-06-08 21:40 haha 2010-06-08 21:40 apt-wait install doom2 2010-06-08 21:41 FATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/2.6.32.10/modules.dep: No such file or directory 2010-06-08 21:41 o_O 2010-06-08 21:41 ls -lh /lib/modules 2010-06-08 21:41 "total 0" 2010-06-08 21:41 apt-get install linux-headers 2010-06-08 21:41 monolithic kernel perhaps. 2010-06-08 21:42 hm I was thinking wrong path 2010-06-08 21:42 soz 2010-06-08 21:42 apt-get install sandwich 2010-06-08 21:42 while waiting. 2010-06-08 21:42 You require root permissions. 2010-06-08 21:42 I am root. 2010-06-08 21:42 Installing sandwich to /dev/mouth. 2010-06-08 21:42 apt-get install linux-modules, I think 2010-06-08 21:42 It wants me to be explicit for header install. 2010-06-08 21:43 rofl 2010-06-08 21:43 sandwich --deliciousness 100 2010-06-08 21:43 This feels like the commodore 64 in terms of load time... 2010-06-08 21:43 flargh - no linux-modules pacakge. 2010-06-08 21:44 maybe it's called linux-modules-2.6.32 or something 2010-06-08 21:44 http://pastebin.com/U92fnYZ0 2010-06-08 21:44 apt-get install tylenol 2010-06-08 21:45 on my Debian gateway, the modules are included in the linux-image package 2010-06-08 21:45 LOAD "TYLENOL",8,1 2010-06-08 21:45 RUN 2010-06-08 21:45 You know, VICE runs fairly smoothly on NN with openwrt. 2010-06-08 21:45 apt-cache search ^linux-modules 2010-06-08 21:45 linux-headers is only needed if you want to compile kernel modules or other software that directly talks to the kernel, afaik 2010-06-08 21:46 yep, mth 2010-06-08 21:46 I misread the path it was complaining about 2010-06-08 21:46 FrankBlues: is linux-image- installed? 2010-06-08 21:47 One would hope... halfasec 2010-06-08 21:47 oh, and http://pastebin.com/rykwKMRE 2010-06-08 21:48 How do you check if a package is installed? 2010-06-08 21:48 I don't know how the NN port was made, if it's a quick hack there might not be a linux-image package for it 2010-06-08 21:48 dpkg -l 'expr' 2010-06-08 21:48 max_posedon are you there? 2010-06-08 21:48 for example: dpkg -l '*linux*' 2010-06-08 21:49 Nope, no linux-image 2010-06-08 21:49 But mtd-utils are there... 2010-06-08 21:51 And hostname as (none) is bugging me, but I think that should fix itself on reboot. 2010-06-08 21:52 FrankBlues: dpkg -l 2010-06-08 21:52 with an appropriate grep 2010-06-08 21:52 nebajoth: Tried that, no linux-modules or linux-image 2010-06-08 21:52 hm 2010-06-08 21:52 what exactly are we trying to achieve? 2010-06-08 21:53 I have about a 1.3GB partition on the NN's NAND that I'd like to be able to access while using the debian from the SD card. 2010-06-08 21:54 ah es 2010-06-08 21:54 yes 2010-06-08 21:55 hehehe... "apt-get install vlc-nox" 2010-06-08 22:00 I think I'm going to take a break for a bit. Thanks, nebajoth and mth! 2010-06-08 23:23 hey 2010-06-08 23:23 I found a nice terminal emulator for console :) 2010-06-08 23:23 if you have not tried.. fbterm.. it builds easily and runs great.. because you can specify the font size in number pixels ;) 2010-06-08 23:26 oh sure 2010-06-08 23:26 Japanese like it, I think they use Japanese fonts in it 2010-06-08 23:26 cool, it works really nice in NN