DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/README: correct style and a typo (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/73c0489
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/stl.c, stl.h: copy over from Neo900 misc/meme/ (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/632a60f
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/stl.h, stl.c: adapt for use in slicer (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/5f31b94
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.h, slice.c, util.h: extract outlines of Z slices from mesh (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/49abc13
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c (add): only output lower end of vertical walls (still needs work) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/3f2c6cd
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/stl.c (stl_load_file): support binary STL as well (on little-endian hosts) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/c82ea10
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c: repeat lower cuts at intermediate points (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6a12d47
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/stl.c: mention where the format is documented (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/c984021
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c (add): detect and report inclined facets (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a30024d
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/stl.c (stl_load_binary): remove debug output (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/65fa69c
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c, slice.h: optionally draw a box around the object (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6b7ceca
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/Makefile, slicer.c: forgot to commit these files :-( (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/aa327c8
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c (dump_layer): don't draw the top end of walls (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/9fc0962
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/: new option -z to add intermediate layers (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b2d6ef5
<pcercuei> C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
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<wpwrak> (giving freecad another try. but without having to suffer crappy toolpaths in return :)
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<DocScrutinizer05> pcercuei: I tend to agree
<DocScrutinizer05> posting commit messages to IRC is kinda abusive
<wpwrak> naw, i like it. shows where things are happening. but it may help if very long sequences would get truncated.
<DocScrutinizer05> by definition/netiquette of IRC, a bot shouldn't spam a channel with unsolicited info. It might be tolerable when you do this in a dedicated channel which users would join only when they are interested in that sort of automated update about "where things happen". For a channel with /topic "hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects" I'd consider such
<DocScrutinizer05> automated 'tweets' quite inappropriate
<DocScrutinizer05> but obviously that's pretty much up to the individual channel's policies, as set up by the channel founders
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<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: wut? Argentinia building the RN40 since EIGHTY years and still not even half done? real fun!
<DocScrutinizer05> well, Koeln dome took longer to be not finished yet ;-)
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<wpwrak> i think you mean paved, not constructed. where are many unpaved roads in argentia. please remember that it's a big country and traffic can be fairly light in some areas :)
<wpwrak> s/where/there/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "i think you mean paved, not constructed. there are many unpaved roads in argentia. please remember that it's a big country and traffic can be fairly light in some areas :)"
<eintopf> wpwrak: do you have a car in argentia?
<wpwrak> yup, and i think i've driven on RN40 (the paved part :)
* eintopf image some linux car with a big fat linux sticker at the back
<eintopf> oh wait
<eintopf> I know wpwrak car
<eintopf> you don't need to understand german if you see this picture:
<eintopf> but the solder station is missing there
<eintopf> maybe baking some boards on the top of the motor while driving the car ;-)
<eintopf> wpwrak: please don't be angry.... it's just funny. Maybe you have something similar in your car and for me that's pretty cool
<wpwrak> that looks kinda dangerous :)
<wpwrak> naw, the only "diy" addition is a gps support
<eintopf> :-(
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<eintopf> I finished my implementation for controlling a inverted pendulum via matlab PID code generation (some project for my study)
<eintopf> it's simulated in a physic engine only
<eintopf> but I implemented a cool opengl plotter for the PID error
<eintopf> my experience, you don't need the fancy matlab thing... but I can't say this in my course
<eintopf> and matlab simulink code generation - I don't know if I can setup some settings for generating code for 8bit mcu. I mean the code generator need to be sure that there is no overflow, etc...
<eintopf> somebody wants to have some x86_64 binary to see how a PID works? it's magic
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks, I've built both analog and digital PID controllers
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<eintopf> it's magic because I have only some error value with no dimension and the PID try to get this error at 0... okay that's how a PID works
<eintopf> but the gains, it's purely randomness
<eintopf> DocScrutinizer05: :O analog PID controller?
<DocScrutinizer05> sure
<eintopf> this is fast
<DocScrutinizer05> that's how that stuff started
<eintopf> ah, ok.
<DocScrutinizer05> some prolly 100 years ago
<eintopf> do you also do some fuzzy logic?
<DocScrutinizer05> hardly ever
<DocScrutinizer05> I think fuzzy logic is a joke
<DocScrutinizer05> I can do logic of arbitrary "fuzziness" in proper digital
<DocScrutinizer05> no need for "gaaaaaanz viel 0 is ein klein bisschen 1"
<eintopf> and for what do you use the PID?
<eintopf> for controlling things...
<eintopf> I mean when do you use PID and when fuzzy
<eintopf> okay the PID error value plot looks more like a sin(x) with some damping
<eintopf> and fuzzy looks different, then fuzzy is maybe better
<DocScrutinizer05> when it looks too much like sin(x) you should adjust the integral factor
<eintopf> ah, an expert
<eintopf> I have a little input box where I can change the values on the fly
<DocScrutinizer05> PID regulators are used literally everywhere
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<DocScrutinizer05> there is math to calibrate the PID from known parameters of the controlled system, but they are tedious and it's generally easier to simply adjust the stuff live
<DocScrutinizer05> particularly since it's quite difficult to acquire a comprehensive set of parameters of the controlled system, incl all actors and sensors
<eintopf> yes, matlab has also some feature to auto-detect the gains
<eintopf> but then I need to have my physical model inside matlab
<eintopf> and my physic engine only understand setMotorSpeed(500)
<eintopf> don't know what 500 means :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe
<eintopf> this will cost much time
<eintopf> but for the PID this doesn't matter
<eintopf> he only tries to get the error value -> 0
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> it's more about inertia and momentum, about delays etc in your system
<DocScrutinizer05> phase shift
<DocScrutinizer05> and those are hard to measure, for any physical object
<DocScrutinizer05> basically you compensate delay with the D component and inertia with the I component
<DocScrutinizer05> funny even the letters match :-D
<DocScrutinizer05> just noticed first time
<DocScrutinizer05> you can also think of differential component as highpass and integral component as lowpass
<eintopf> I used the normal PID controller from wikipedia
<eintopf> pure simple
<eintopf> with the matlab componentes Integral 1/s and derivate
<eintopf> and sum function at end
<eintopf> the P gain is only to set my "setMotorSpeed" to some value which fits
<eintopf> not too fast, not too slow
<eintopf> and I simple experiment with all values
<eintopf> I know the matlab builtin PID controller has some filter
<eintopf> but I didn't understand that, if I set the filter coefficient above 0, nothing worked anymore
<eintopf> a build a own one
<eintopf> that's the normal MATLAB PID controller
<eintopf> I simple have a "normal" deivate block after D-Gain
<eintopf> don't know what matlab tries to do there
<DocScrutinizer05> well, they build a differentiator from an integrator
<DocScrutinizer05> a highpass for x is what you get from x-lowpass(x)
<DocScrutinizer05> in simple analog this would be a capacitor feeding back opamp output to negative input
<DocScrutinizer05> ooops sorry, nope, the contrary
<DocScrutinizer05> this would be a capacitor shorting high frequencies of the feedback to ground, in negative input
<DocScrutinizer05> the 1/s feeding back low frequencies to the inverting input, thus attenuating them
<eintopf> ah
<DocScrutinizer05> and such feedback however can't reduce the amplification to <1
<eintopf> I know lowpass filter. A rc-circuit.
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<eintopf> oh
<eintopf> When I started my study I had some frequency generator and making serval RC-circuits. Then I looked at oscilloscope what happens
<eintopf> the first time where I understand for what's good for
<DocScrutinizer05> ypur amplification in such feedback filter needs to be >1 to produce any significant difference in output signal between filtered and non-filtered frequencies
<DocScrutinizer05> quite possibly a feed-forward filter would be better suited for that usecase than a feedback filter
<DocScrutinizer05> a filter without feedback could result in output amplitude approaching zero for frequency approaching zero
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<eintopf> I think I don't do any filtering now, but thanks for the info
<DocScrutinizer05> the stuff http://www.mathworks.com/help/simulink/slref/pid_controller_parallel.png shows would still have output = input (amplification = 1) and for higher frequencies it would reach the amplification of the "N filter coefficient"
<eintopf> I also saw some filtering about position and the acceleration, which is calculated by position''. They had some weights with pos_filter = (pos_avg * 0.1) + (real_pos * 0,9);
<eintopf> ah so I don't have higher frequency, this will reduce some wobble pendulum :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe it helps to think about you following another car with your car on the highway. You have a very accurate way to detect the distance to the car you're following and your goal is to keep a certain constant distance
<DocScrutinizer05> consider what you would do to the trottle when you notice your distance is 10% too short.
<DocScrutinizer05> you also would act differnt based on your observation if that distance is short but constant or the car before you is actually slower than you
<DocScrutinizer05> that's the D component
<DocScrutinizer05> to adjust your speed to the other car quickly
<DocScrutinizer05> when you notice you're 10% short but same speed, you slowly reduce throttle gradually. That's the I component
<eintopf> ahhh
<DocScrutinizer05> too much I without any D would result in oscillation
<DocScrutinizer05> but too high D would also result in oscillation
<DocScrutinizer05> both of them too low would result in your distance never getting right
<DocScrutinizer05> the P component is basically just to adjust the target distance you want to keep
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry when there's anything incorrect in all this, it's what I recall from my experience with PID which is quite several years ago already
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<DocScrutinizer05> also note there are serial PID as well. What you shown is a parallel PID
<DocScrutinizer05> I think you can have hours of fun with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller and particularly https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regler#PID-Regler ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> actually nope, P component is what determines the working point and thus characteristics of the whole regulator. (over-damped vs overshooting)