Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<wolfspra1l>
programming question: any downside to using designated c99-style initializers to initialize union members?
<wolfspra1l>
I haven't done that before but c99 feels kinda stable and well supported now, no?
<wolfspra1l>
unless I find a reason not to, I'll go ahead with .xxx = ...
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<whitequark>
there was some really weird incompatibility with some software
<whitequark>
but if you stick to gcc/clang it should be fine
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
I think that was armcc... not sure actually
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<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: hmm, when you take something to FCC approval checking, how does that work ? let's say a simple circuit without radio. i.e., how "finished" does the device have to be ? and do you send the device to the test lab when it has reached that state of maturity or do you send them development prototypes to accelerate the process ?
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<LunaVorax>
Hello!
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<wolfspra1l>
testing, hmm
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: that's a long story :-)
<wolfspra1l>
the FCC works with approved labs
<wolfspra1l>
so for authentic fcc testing, you need to work with an approved lab
<wolfspra1l>
there may well be one in Buenos Aires, I don't know. or maybe not. in China they are everywhere (the real ones, in addition to a flood of fake ones)
<wolfspra1l>
mostly those labs (=companies) are offering all sorts of engineering and consulting services, so what you use them for is really your own decision
<wolfspra1l>
they love to sell you as much as possible, naturally
<wolfspra1l>
once you passed the testing, you can still make modifications to your design or production process, but at which point exactly this falls out of the first testing then and a re-testing is necessary is a grey area and comes down to your own understanding of quality, at some point
<wolfspra1l>
some people are just letting whatever 'brick' pass the testing, and sell something entirely differently
<wolfspra1l>
and nobody will ever check or care
<wolfspra1l>
I've seen cases where people starting selling a product that was totally different under the name of an old one because "renaming is expensive"
<wolfspra1l>
other take the testing more serious, and once they make a change (in design, production process or sw) that they think might affect the test result, they will voluntarily resubmit and want to work toward a better product anyway
<wolfspra1l>
the external engineering is not too different from any in-house engineering anyway, since a normal company will pay their employees, they may as well pay an outside service provider
<wolfspra1l>
I think the category you are looking at is 'unintentional radiator'
<wolfspra1l>
you should be able to get a certification for about 1000 USD or so, and yes it really only makes sense with case imho
<wolfspra1l>
that's about it :-)
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<wpwrak>
(long story) yeah :) at OM, i got to see the tips of that iceberg, but never had the entire picture.
<wpwrak>
(unintentional radiator) yup :)
<wpwrak>
so for a completely new design, perhaps it would make sense to have an early prototype "pre-certified" to make sure it doesn't have major issues. USD 1k isn't all that bad anyway.
<wpwrak>
how much time does such a certification (or attempt) usually take, from sending the device until the result is known ? i think there's an extra delay until the actual certificate is issued, isn't there ?
<wolfspra1l>
calling it a day, but quick... it mostly comes down to getting an 'appointment'/free time for their lab
<wolfspra1l>
which can be anywhere from a few days later if they are not very busy to a month later in high season
<wolfspra1l>
I think if it's a lab you never worked with before, it will be difficult to arrange it all remotely, too many communication issues
<wpwrak>
ah yes, better to avoid the pre-xmas rush :)
<wolfspra1l>
the key is to find a friendly small lab that is officially certified as a FCC lab and then start working with them
<wolfspra1l>
yes but the xmas rush may be around now actually :-)
<wpwrak>
i suppose you know such (a) lab(s) ?
<wolfspra1l>
last time I worked with one in nanjing, the docs are uploaded somewhere, which I can locate tomorrow
<wpwrak>
(xmas) hmm. people have too much money. they should spend it only once per year :)
<wolfspra1l>
but I do think you should first look locally, ideally even in buenos aires
<wolfspra1l>
well the factories are in xmas season now, more or less
<wolfspra1l>
and the cert is always last minute...
<wolfspra1l>
but I haven't worked with labs in a while, not really up to date now
<wolfspra1l>
an unintentional radiator will not get an FCC ID
<wolfspra1l>
so I think you can keep this all very low key
<wolfspra1l>
in fact most people would not bother at all...
<wolfspra1l>
definitely not on the hobbyist or even other 'open hardware' products without naming them now (or pointing fingers...)
<wolfspra1l>
it's more 'in style' to not be certified :-)
<wolfspra1l>
especially for unintentional radiators (the others most people in that scene wouldn't touch anyway)
<wolfspra1l>
why do you think it might radiate at all?
<wolfspra1l>
you worry too much :-)
<wolfspra1l>
unfortunately I heard horror stories about FCC labs in Europe asking for 25k usd upfront etc.
<wolfspra1l>
that is quite possible, given that they want to keep the whole flood of hobbyist/garage projects away that would never turn into good customers anyway
<wolfspra1l>
in China the volume is so big in all this, and there are so many (real and fake) labs, they take the small fish as well
<wpwrak>
oh, anything can radiate :) all it takes is switching a few signals quickly enough ... (i think the limits go down to pretty low frequencies)
<wolfspra1l>
sure I know, but still. I just try to put it into perspective.
<wolfspra1l>
that's why it's called 'unintentional radiator'
<wpwrak>
i suspect that, if i find anything here, it'll be prohibitively priced
<wolfspra1l>
theoretically I would assume mostly everything radiates, at whatever frequency etc. but does it matter? who cares? etc.
<wolfspra1l>
possible, yes
<wolfspra1l>
but it will be hard to remote-work with a chinese lab especially first-time
<wpwrak>
yeha, one would need an EE on the ground to act as interface
<wpwrak>
it's basically a form of poverty tax: with proper equipment and a bit of time to learn the rules, one could do all these tests by oneself. that way, there wouldn't be surprises from the certification lab.
<wolfspra1l>
maybe you do check, I think on the fcc website they have a list of their certified labs somewhere
<wolfspra1l>
hundreds I think, or more
<wolfspra1l>
but again, maybe you don't need all this, really
<wolfspra1l>
you would not get an FCC ID anyway
<wolfspra1l>
so you only get some paperwork that shows that your device meets the requirements for unintentional radiators
<wolfspra1l>
even when importing into the US, there are a number of exceptiosn (aside from just incorrect paperwork which many do as well) to get devices without FCC whatever into the country
<wolfspra1l>
just read what sparkfun and friends write about those little nasty paper-whatever :-)
<wolfspra1l>
for unintentional radiators, I think you are trying to be too perfect
<wolfspra1l>
really
<wolfspra1l>
people build multi-million USD business with intentional radiators and won't spend a penny (or second) on any of this
<wolfspra1l>
businesses
<wolfspra1l>
k getting crazy tired here, backlog tomorrow
<wolfspra1l>
I will find my old cert paperwork for the ben (which is uploaded somewhere), and also a list of labs maybe
<wpwrak>
but there's not a single one in the whole region. not even in brazil or mexico. so this is of limited use.
<wpwrak>
may well be that everything that gets fcc-certified around here just gets sent to some lab in the US, maybe with a friendly interface person who speaks fluent spanish and/or portugese :)
<paul_boddie>
OpenWrt really doesn't seem to like Qt and Gtk+ these days.
<paul_boddie>
Anyone here have any eglibc experience? I'm trying to figure out the real cause of "libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_cancel to work". I think Ubuntu switched to eglibc and now there are thousands of upset people on the Internet.
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