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Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<whitequark> any thoughts on this? http://ospid.com/
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<mth> incoming...
<mth> apparently qi-bot either ignored the commit or git choked on it
<mth> anyway, I just pushed jz-3.2
<mth> it runs on Dingoo and it compiles fine for NanoNote, but it needs testing on NanoNote as well
<mth> larsc, xiangfu: I did not merge all patches from 3.1
<mth> some were no longer needed
<mth> the hw I2C driver was not merged because larsc said it might not be worth the effort since the hw is really flaky
<mth> both the Dingoo and the NanoNote configs use i2c-gpio instead
<mth> the "JZ4740 cache quirks" commit was not merged, to see what happens without it
<mth> since larsc said we don't really know whether it helps or not
<mth> "Framebuffer notifier: Call notifier callbacks prior to blanking the screen" was not merged since larsc pointed to an alternative patch that solves the issue in a cleaner way: http://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-fbdev/msg04503.html
<mth> that alternative is not merged yet either though
<mth> so that's something to do
<mth> I took a quick look at the alternative and it seems to add new callbacks, so I guess that for it to be a solution we should register those callbacks
<mth> so what's required is not just a merge then, it's a merge + some new code
<mth> there were a lot of mainline cleanups in the NAND code; it might be useful to review the remaining NAND patches
<mth> flush_kernel_dcache_page was implemented by Ralf, but the implementation does nothing except a sanity check, so I'm not sure it actually fixes the problem we once had with MMC bounce buffers (when bounce buffers were accidentally enabled in the config)
<mth> I'm going to get some sleep now
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<xiangfu> mth, I will try that in nanonote.
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<whitequark> mth: per my personal experience, the "cache quirks" part does not do anything at all on jz4750l
<whitequark> maybe it was a workaround for earlier SoCs
<whitequark> like the msr0 quirk which is still needed
<whitequark> *cp0
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<whitequark> huh
<whitequark> do you remember how I talked about iteadstudio, which is a clone of seeedstudio?
<whitequark> just discovered a Malaysian Sparkfun clone
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<whitequark> I'm curious
<whitequark> if I'd drive a 2kW heater with 50hz PWM, the light in my room will blink, and my refrigerator will die
<whitequark> and what if I'd use 1khz (with an SSR)?
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<wolfspraul> whitequark: interesting link about ospid.com1
<wolfspraul> thanks, will check it a bit more but looks like we should definitely add it to the Qi planet
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<GorDonFreeMan> hi
<GorDonFreeMan> wazup?
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<GorDonFreeMan> hey Textmode
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>
<GorDonFreeMan> so you are a haxx0r
<GorDonFreeMan> soo qi-hardware is an electronic company?
<GorDonFreeMan> or a nonprofit organization supporting electronic projects?
<whitequark> wolfspraul: I'll definitely buy that controller when it'll be in stock
<whitequark> the author says that will happen in 4-5 weeks
<whitequark> I'm going to use it to make a reflow oven from a roaster. I really like almost everything about that piece of hardware
<wolfspraul> very good
<wolfspraul> PLEASE PLEASE keep us posted about that project
<wolfspraul> GorDonFreeMan: qi hardware is an open source project and definitely not 'non-profit' or 'non-commercial'
<wolfspraul> what we do can be used for commercial or noncommercial activities
<wolfspraul> like any other proper free software / open source project
<GorDonFreeMan> i'm planning to do both
<GorDonFreeMan> so, can you recommend things for my FPGA project?
<GorDonFreeMan> i have chosen some new 1.8V Xilinx FPGAs
<GorDonFreeMan> but i would need to "program" them with something
<GorDonFreeMan> is there some c00l linux tool for this?
<GorDonFreeMan> possibly not $$$ ?
<GorDonFreeMan> and not with forced registrations
<GorDonFreeMan> tracking/spyware/logging etc...
<whitequark> wolfspraul: absolutely. I'll following updates on their blog, and I'll tell everything interesting on IRC
<whitequark> and of course I'll write about my oven, when I'll do it
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: nope, there's only Xilinx tool and it sends your netlist to Xilinx, unless you've bought it for $1000 or so.
<GorDonFreeMan> aham i see
<GorDonFreeMan> so they allow you to make things that you give them
<GorDonFreeMan> this delays my FPGA project
<GorDonFreeMan> because i'm not contributing
<wolfspraul> do you have a link to prior projects of yours?
<GorDonFreeMan> no i have not made a blog yet
<GorDonFreeMan> in a few month i will have one
<wolfspraul> have you made a project before?
<GorDonFreeMan> with Xilinx? no
<GorDonFreeMan> but i have used several logic ics ;/
<GorDonFreeMan> and i can make everything with 1 FPGA
<GorDonFreeMan> i surely will benefit from this
<whitequark> sigh
<GorDonFreeMan> my next project is a 3 axis CNC machine
<GorDonFreeMan> :P
<GorDonFreeMan> i would use an FPGA for stepper motor control too...
<blogic> ?
<GorDonFreeMan> then... maybe a robot arm, walking spider or whatever :)
<blogic> i owuld say a fpga to drive the stepper controller :D
<blogic> i owuld like to see you drive a stepper with a fpga
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>>
<blogic> the fpga will blow up in no time
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< ok not with the FPGA's ports, i'd connect mosfets to them
<GorDonFreeMan> :P
<blogic> ?
<blogic> you want to drive a stepper with a h bridge ?
<GorDonFreeMan> you know, metal-oxide semiconductor
<whitequark> that's... insightful.
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< well the simplest form is not a h-bridge
<GorDonFreeMan> it's single ended
<blogic> have you used / seen a cnc machine before ?
<GorDonFreeMan> what is the meaning of that log whitequark ?
<whitequark> 42
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< if you ask me this i'm thinking over why am i here
<blogic> 23
<GorDonFreeMan> sqrt(-1)
<blogic> re
<blogic> GorDonFreeMan: dont get it
<blogic> its a simple question really
<GorDonFreeMan> well ou just assumed i'm retard
<blogic> ?
<GorDonFreeMan> ou/you
<blogic> where did i say that ?
<GorDonFreeMan> or troll
<blogic> ?
<GorDonFreeMan> [112611] <blogic> have you used / seen a cnc machine before ? - here
<blogic> well
<blogic> you wrote you want to drive steppers with a FPGA
<GorDonFreeMan> yes
<blogic> just seemed to me that you have not used/built/setup a stepper controller
<GorDonFreeMan> so?
<GorDonFreeMan> i see
<blogic> as they dont normally come with FPGA and FPGA is sort of a misplaced component
<blogic> if you consider this to be an insult ... welll ...
<blogic> what can i say
<blogic> you came up with the stigma of you being a troll
<GorDonFreeMan> i see FPGA as a HUGE collection of ANY logic ics
<blogic> no one else did
<blogic> ok
<GorDonFreeMan> and i have stepper motor driver logic using logic ics
<blogic> i wish you lots of luck in your venture ;)
<GorDonFreeMan> so, i can make it like on a 20cm board
<GorDonFreeMan> and everything would fit in a tiny tqfp FPGA
<GorDonFreeMan> this was my logic
<GorDonFreeMan> as a side effect, it would have a step rate limit of 300MHz...
<GorDonFreeMan> not really matter for a stepper motor though
<whitequark> it will fit just as well in a tiny tqfp atmega
<whitequark> which is ten or fifty times cheaper, and easier to program, and does not need weird power voltage and filtered environment
<whitequark> *voltages, of course. All Xilinx fpga I've seen use three input voltages
<whitequark> have you ever tried to make a working buck converter?
<GorDonFreeMan> hm, yes, but microcontroller is not a logic block. and i can use the cheapest FPGA
<whitequark> it is
<GorDonFreeMan> no
<whitequark> proof: you can program FPGA to act like an AVR microcontroller
<GorDonFreeMan> a microcontroller executes instructions one after one
<whitequark> (if you don't use analog peripherals)
<GorDonFreeMan> an FPGA is a HUGE logic block array
<whitequark> and if you can make a microcontroller out of it, then a microcontroller is a subset of a huge logic block array
<whitequark> ergo, it is a logic block.
<GorDonFreeMan> [114328] <whitequark> proof: you can program FPGA to act like an AVR microcontroller - ahah ok then i'll never use an atmel again
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>
<GorDonFreeMan> tell me more about
<whitequark> do you know about a thing called "Internet"? just in case
<whitequark> there's a site in it no one knows about
<whitequark> it's called Google
<GorDonFreeMan> hmm, no please tell
<whitequark> so hard, I understand
<GorDonFreeMan> this is not what you said ;/
<GorDonFreeMan> this will bring up lots of results interfacing FPGA to an AVR
<whitequark> just curious, have you actually clicked on the link?
<GorDonFreeMan> no
<whitequark> because the first result is exactly what I've said.
<whitequark> can you tell me your Hungarian street address? maybe I should come there and click a mouse button instead of you.
<GorDonFreeMan> ahah
<GorDonFreeMan> ok i clicked it
<whitequark> congratulations
<wolfspraul> let's be nice to each other :-)
<whitequark> I am
<whitequark> have I said even one bad word to you?
<whitequark> no I did not
<GorDonFreeMan> hmm whitequark cool, i see someone took the time to make an FPGA act like an AVR8, but the AVR8 is still not a logic block
<GorDonFreeMan> my point is, it executes instructions in serial, not parallel
<blogic> wolfspraul: grouphug ?! :D
<GorDonFreeMan> in theory i can multiply arbitrary amount of floatingpoint numbers in parallel with an FPGA, do this with any atmel AVR.
<wolfspraul> grouphug! the qi-bot should have some feature to pass a matte cup around
<wolfspraul> mate
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: sure, I'll just use an arbitrary number of AVRs
<GorDonFreeMan> :) that will be inefficient, and slow.
<GorDonFreeMan> and expensive.
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark<< soo, since AVR is made out of logic blocks, you can make an AVR from an FPGA
<GorDonFreeMan> this is the difference
<GorDonFreeMan> you can make an X86 CPU from an FPGA...
<GorDonFreeMan> but why would you ?
<GorDonFreeMan> it will be only a waste of logics.
<GorDonFreeMan> i see
<GorDonFreeMan> "Having the core already implemented, you then only need to work with HDL for the parts of the project the AVR was unable to handle. "
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: how do you think Intel makes new CPUs? they get a huge FPGA from Xilinx and assemble it there
<GorDonFreeMan> but still waste of logic blocks
<GorDonFreeMan> ;/
<GorDonFreeMan> ok
<GorDonFreeMan> i'm not developing new CPUS
<GorDonFreeMan> i have an input data, i have a logic (black box), and i need an output
<GorDonFreeMan> i just do it using whatever method i want
<blogic> wolfspraul: make that club mate bottles and its even better
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark<< so i see we have different aspects of problem solving
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: still, my point about AVR being a "logic block" (whatever do you mean by that) is avlid
<whitequark> *valid
<GorDonFreeMan> an AVR is a huge macro of logic blocks.
<GorDonFreeMan> or rather a huge macro of macros of logic blocks
<blogic> ?
<blogic> may i ask something
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< what are your ?'s ? :)
<blogic> whats the aim of this discussion
<GorDonFreeMan> nothin'
<GorDonFreeMan> it's just waste of time
<GorDonFreeMan> it started with whitequark questioning me using an array of logic blocks (FPGA) for direct logic functions
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark<< what are your projects?
<GorDonFreeMan> do you have a blog?
<blogic> A pipelined brainfuck softcore in Verilog
<blogic> :D
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> it's quite fast
<whitequark> also, very practical. As wpwrak said, "finally a device to run all of our brainfuck programs"
<GorDonFreeMan> i see so you're new to market :)
<blogic> GorDonFreeMan: who do you mean ?
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark
<blogic> why do you say he is new to the market ?
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< and what are your projects? :)
<blogic> www.openwrt.org dev.phrozen.org fon.com
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< well i looked at his website, still one more to go
<whitequark> NO U^W^W
<blogic> whyever you ask
<blogic> ok
<blogic> this is getting to bizarre
<blogic> GorDonFreeMan: you scare me
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< just collecting intelligence, no threats
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: you know all the meanings of word "intelligence", do you?
<GorDonFreeMan> well i don't know if you interpreted this as i intended
<GorDonFreeMan> i'm not native
<whitequark> oh
<GorDonFreeMan> i did not mean the basic meaning of intelligence
<whitequark> I have no doubt I interpreted it the right way
<GorDonFreeMan> well currently i don't have the words to describe alternative meanings to you in english now
<larsc> mth: nice
<larsc> mth: but i think the new flush_kernel_dcache_page implementation is not sufficent
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark<< yet i don't know you are picking on me, or just probing me
<GorDonFreeMan> blogic<< hehe, you created the internetz on wifi ?:)
<blogic> no
<blogic> neither
<GorDonFreeMan> i was here http://corp.fon.com/en
<GorDonFreeMan> "best way to share your wifi"
<GorDonFreeMan> neat project hmmmm
<GorDonFreeMan> to give you insight of the meaning i meant
<whitequark> oh yeah
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<whitequark> FBI has a lot of intelligence
<GorDonFreeMan> FBI — Intelligence Collection Disciplines
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: can you give a hint why are you logged in from a machine called nude.lesbianbath.com?
<whitequark> I'm just curious
<GorDonFreeMan> no
<whitequark> anyway
<whitequark> I'm so proud I'm talking with an owner of a porn site
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>
<pabs3> anyone know if there are any FPGAs with FOSS bitstream preparers (or whatever they are called)? is this page accurate http://wiki.debian.org/FPGA#FPGA_and_the_DFSG ?
<GorDonFreeMan> whitequark<< i see an advantage of the automatic irclog :) :"what you say can, and will be used against you"
<whitequark> absolutely
<whitequark> pabs3: there are no FOSS tools of even alpha quality
<whitequark> there are some experiments, some half-working ones, but nothing you can use for even a simple real project
<pabs3> thats better than no tools at all
<whitequark> marginally
<pabs3> indeed
<whitequark> is a C compiler which cannot compile any code found in the wild better than no C compliers at all? no
<larsc> a car without tires is better than no car at all, but not if you want to get anywhere
<whitequark> ^ this.
<viric> have you played much with 'perf' on the nanonote?
<GorDonFreeMan> yeah, you only need to make tires.
<pabs3> whitequark: do you have any links to these projects?
<viric> (if it works at all...)
<viric> are there performance counters in the jz4720?
<larsc> viric: not sure, but i don't think so
<whitequark> pabs3: nothing atm
<viric> ok
<larsc> we have hw timers, but thats all
<viric> larsc: but they can't count per-process, right?
<larsc> correct
<viric> ah well, at scheduling, they can be checked...
<larsc> we use one of the timers as the clocksource for the system
<viric> ok
<whitequark> larsc: don't we do that already?
<viric> what resolution?
<viric> can they be stored in a per-process variable at scheduling, to know the ticks per process?
<larsc> viric: i know nothong about perf, but i would expect that the kernel already does this
<viric> ok
<larsc> whitequark: yes
<whitequark> larsc: oops, I read that as "can we use".
<whitequark> pabs3: look at Sebastien's projects: https://github.com/sbourdeauducq
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<larsc> i've recently been toying with the idea of implementing a fpga on a fpga. don't know how feasible it is though.
<viric> larsc: it sounds like adding '|cat|' piping
<viric> larsc: just for later making an asic?
<larsc> you'd still depend on the proprietary tools, but it allows you to implement the whole stack
<viric> yes
<blogic> interesting
<blogic> a uneducated question ....
<blogic> how do you simulate efuses in an fpga ?
<blogic> i always thought the gates are "wired" using efuses ... which in turn i thought were not really logic elements
<blogic> or am i totally wrong on that one ?
<viric> well, if you can emulate an fpga in software, you can emulate it in hw
<blogic> yes
<blogic> hence my quetion ... how would that work
<blogic> well ok
<blogic> you can simply simulate it
<larsc> fpgas use lookup tables
<blogic> it would mean though that the resulting fpga has a lot less power and cells/gates than the the host fpga
<blogic> larsc: can oyu make a sentence of that so its more clear ?
<viric> they use memories with values
<viric> for the operations
<viric> Like you had logic tables of inputs and outputs
<blogic> ok
<blogic> did not know that
<whitequark> xilinx has a pretty good explanation in their datasheets
<viric> yes
<blogic> hehe
<viric> there are many memories acting as lookup tables, each with a few flipflops
<blogic> i am a noob at fpgas
<blogic> i installed ise last week and flashed my first "code" into a cpld last night
<viric> well, that's more than lots of people already
<blogic> i am currently looking for a spartan3 in the AN variant
<blogic> as in the one with the internal flash
<GorDonFreeMan> [125517] * roland (~quassel@phobos.martem.ee) has joined ##kernel
<GorDonFreeMan> [125552] <roland> Hi. Does linux 2.6 support RSTP ?
<GorDonFreeMan> [125959] <_7nb> nobody uses 2.4
<GorDonFreeMan> [130024] <roland> _7nb: only really old embedded devices
<GorDonFreeMan> [130030] <_7nb> which are of no importance..
<GorDonFreeMan> [130042] <roland> _7nb: to you
<GorDonFreeMan> [130108] <roland> there are a lot of 2.4 embedded devices in industrial applications
<GorDonFreeMan> [130124] <_7nb> Quantify that.
<blogic> ... on a nice breakout board
<GorDonFreeMan> [130136] <roland> don't understand
<GorDonFreeMan> [130142] <roland> quantify
<GorDonFreeMan> [130143] <roland> ?
<GorDonFreeMan> [130158] <_7nb> I always hear people saying "a lot of 2.4", but they don't know any numbers in comparison to 2.6/3.0
<GorDonFreeMan> [130754] <GorDonFreeMan> ;>>>
<GorDonFreeMan> [130755] <GorDonFreeMan> ok
<GorDonFreeMan> [130811] <GorDonFreeMan> there are a lot of flying cats around the world
<GorDonFreeMan> [130818] <_7nb> Heh.
<whitequark> why the hell should all of us read that?
<GorDonFreeMan> [130830] <GorDonFreeMan> -where ? how many ? - i don't know...
<GorDonFreeMan> [130840] <_7nb> GorDonFreeMan: There is even a God. Or at least, they claim...
<GorDonFreeMan> [130855] <_7nb> some even say there are many, but nobody has scientifically observed any.
<GorDonFreeMan> [130856] <roland> you're been lied, there more than 1 god
<GorDonFreeMan> [130857] <GorDonFreeMan> ohh i see you mean religion
<viric> I don't want to read that
<GorDonFreeMan> [130916] <_7nb> Yes, Linux 2.4 is a religion.
<GorDonFreeMan> [130921] <GorDonFreeMan> cool
<GorDonFreeMan> [130946] <_7nb> Linux is communism (others say). Religion does not belong into socialist states. Therefore, you get the picture.
<viric> freenode, kick that out
<GorDonFreeMan> [131020] <GorDonFreeMan> glad we figured this out
<GorDonFreeMan> [131028] <GorDonFreeMan> next question?
<GorDonFreeMan> [131052] <_7nb> What's for lunch?
<GorDonFreeMan> [131136] <GorDonFreeMan> I think i'll have fried potatoes with fried cheese slices with a bit mustar you?
<GorDonFreeMan> [131222] <roland> thanx, now I feel hungry :D
<whitequark> GorDonFreeMan: please, spare me from your presence.
<GorDonFreeMan> you said i blog here
<GorDonFreeMan> ;>>
<viric> thank you /ignore
<blogic> aha
<blogic> whitequark: first i thought you meant me
<larsc> viric: yep, just did the same
<whitequark> blogic: ahem
<blogic> then i realized i am the only one to ignore him
<blogic> /help ignore
<viric> :)
<blogic> its a feature made by gods
<GorDonFreeMan> ok :)
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> that works
<blogic> its magic
<viric> I imagined the irc authors realized they needed it just at the first deployment
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<blogic> no
<whitequark> but it's kind of ignoring (pun intended) the original problem
<blogic> on the 2nd
<blogic> on the 1st gordon joined :D
<whitequark> and I'm idealist a bit
<whitequark> and, what is worse
<whitequark> I run a logge
<whitequark> *logger
<viric> :)
<whitequark> and all that shit is going to show up there.
<whitequark> sigh.
<viric> qi-bot, ignore him, when registering the logs :)
<whitequark> wolfspraul: can you please ban the idiot? for the sake of clean logs.
<whitequark> viric: irclog.whitequark.org != qi-bot
<whitequark> that's _whitelogger
<viric> ah o
<viric> k
<whitequark> and I hope he'll never return.
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<wolfspraul> well
<wolfspraul> we are lucky in having a very civilized and insightful chat and community
<wolfspraul> somehow those people came together
<wolfspraul> so I am very careful about making the "open for anybody" sign any smaller or darker
<wolfspraul> do I think GorDonFreeMan could learn a thing or two? you bet
<viric> well, people ignored use to leave in a short time
<wolfspraul> but banning sounds a little rude to me right now, let's give him more chances to grow
<wolfspraul> sure I understand, but there is very little to gain
<wolfspraul> put him on a personal blacklist?
<wolfspraul> and he is out of your view
<wolfspraul> don't feed the trolls
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<viric> :)
<wolfspraul> so far in 2.5 years, I only kicked out one person once
<wolfspraul> that was a really insane guy on the mailing list
<blogic> wolfspraul: /help ignore ... a feature made by gods
<wolfspraul> but boy, he earned it
<viric> hehe
<whitequark> uh
<wolfspraul> I do care very much for a friendly attitude though, and I hate to see people treated disrepectfully
<wolfspraul> disrespectfully
<wolfspraul> and God whatever is on a nice path onto my watchlist there, definitely
<wolfspraul> hope that's enough for now
<wolfspraul> yes, /help ignore...
<whitequark> well, maybe.
<whitequark> I don't know.
<viric> so
<viric> what's the kernel to run in the nanonote now?
<viric> rtc issues... all that
<viric> maybe I've to keep with what I have.
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<larsc> viric: xiangfu wrote a bug report to the person which introduced the rtc bug, but he hasn't responded yet :/
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<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:22 <whitequark> wolfspraul: can you please ban the idiot? for the sake of clean logs.
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:22 <whitequark> viric: irclog.whitequark.org != qi-bot
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:22 <whitequark> that's _whitelogger
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:23 <whitequark> oh yes. http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2012-01-06#1325852469;
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:23 <whitequark> and I hope he'll never return.
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:44 <whitequark> uh
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:46 <whitequark> well, maybe.
<GorDonFreeMan> 2012-01-06 12:46 <whitequark> I don't know.
<GorDonFreeMan> ok
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<viric> larsc: that happened outside of qi?
<viric> larsc: outside the qi branch I mean
<larsc> yes
<viric> ok
<viric> do you have any link about all that?
<larsc> seems to be a regression in the rtc core
<viric> larsc: for all mips?
<viric> I've a mips64 here..
<larsc> for all linux I guess
<viric> but only on mips, no?
<larsc> i can't see a reason why it should be mips specific
<viric> but that's one year ago
<larsc> in the other thread he said he thought it got fixed
<viric> aha
<viric> so for 3.x, there is nothing new
<viric> http://lkml.org/ there is no 'search'? :)
<viric> maybe it's not related
<viric> I did not imagine that looking at lkml searching for 'rtc' would bring so much results :)
<viric> ouch, I can't build elfutils for the nanonote
<viric> i386_parse.y:1110:3: error: #error "bogus NMNES value"
<viric> my fault I imagine.
<viric> hm it's harder to cross-build than I imagined
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<wolfspraul> whitequark: I added osPID to the Qi planet - thanks a lot!
<whitequark> wolfspraul: that's good
<whitequark> we need more oshw!
<wolfspraul> you bet
<wolfspraul> also mechanical, often overlooked
<viric> qi planet...
<wolfspraul> but it is the *packaging* that makes electronics usable
<whitequark> oh
<viric> I don't know it :)
<whitequark> how came I forgot about that
<whitequark> it is an _awesome_ 3D printer. much cheaper than alternatives, and it can even upgrade itself
<C-Keen> is it available now?
<whitequark> you could backorder it back when the kickstarter project was pending
<whitequark> they kind of got a lot of orders and are setting up the production now
<whitequark> ($830k out of $25k says _something_)
<viric> grr does openwrt have elfutils?
<whitequark> I can't wait to get one.
<C-Keen> whitequark: how does it compare to a pruja mendel?
<whitequark> there is something minimalistic in it that feels exactly right
<whitequark> hm
<whitequark> they've had a comparsion somewhere, let me find it
<C-Keen> the mendel seems to have the more active community it seems, although I am a bit scared by the amount of calibration time needed to get decent prints
<blogic> viric: as a cross or host tool ?
<viric> cross
<viric> I've tried to make the double configure here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.elfutils.devel/2005
<viric> but by now I fail a bit.
<viric> :)
<viric> so maybe openwrt has a receipt
<whitequark> (the notes read: "Prusa" "PB")
<blogic> owrt has no receipt
<blogic> we have makefiles
<blogic> :D
<blogic> let me look
<viric> whatever
<blogic> feeds/packages/libs/elfutils/
<viric> I've seen...
<blogic> is not whatever
<viric> it builds only libdw and libelf1
<viric> maybe I should try that. I only want those.
<whitequark> C-Keen: the build area is 5x5x5 in, it has a .5mm tip
<whitequark> actually, you can just read the FAQ on kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/printrbot/printrbot-your-first-3d-printer
<blogic> whitequark: nice
<blogic> the problem is the firmware
<blogic> we used the kubichek FW and imho its insane
<blogic> hunted lots of bugs and last night we setup a machine with emc2 and only use a atmel for the heater
<blogic> first of all the motion planner uses the a axis as input for the acceleration of xyz
<blogic> basically someone took ghbl and patched it to be ready for 3d printing
<blogic> and did so by simply adding A to every piece of code that references xyz
<blogic> and thus totally breaking the setup
<blogic> apart from the fact that GHBL's motionplanner is already code written while on crack
<blogic> nonetheless .... once you get your setup printing its a nice experience
<C-Keen> whitequark: ah interesting
<whitequark> blogic: google does not know anything related to "kubichek firmware"
<blogic> whitequark: let me get the real name
<blogic> its the FW inside makerbot
<blogic> 90% of all atmega run 3d printers use it
<whitequark> I slowly start to think that atmegas aren't the best uC for small projects anymore
<whitequark> STM32 are cheaper, much more powerful in processing power and have comparable, often wider, set of peripherals
<whitequark> the main difference is 3.3V
<whitequark> but they're 5V-tolerant
<whitequark> and that's not that hard
<blogic> yes
<blogic> the thing is that for average joe there is lots of docs around on the web to get started with atmega
<blogic> ... imho
<whitequark> oh, do you mean the crappy examples and equivalently crappy half-done arduino libraries?
<whitequark> yes, there exists a lot of that. rather unfortunately, I'd say.
<blogic> no
<blogic> i did not mean arduino
<whitequark> arduino is the php of electronics
<blogic> that is a c++ wrapper built on processing which in an ideal world is an abstraction layer above the actual silicon
<blogic> might be
<blogic> i am talking about the 1 trilion atmega related sites on the web
<blogic> the fact that a programmer takes 4 resistors and that its all documentd
<blogic> most other uC vendors dont have that support
<blogic> and atmel has had this since early 2000
<blogic> when pic still sold the icd for 200€
<blogic> s/pic/microchip/
<qi-bot> blogic meant: "when microchip still sold the icd for 200
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<whitequark> well you have wiggler
<whitequark> which is basically the same
<blogic> yes
<blogic> imho atmel is the easiest to get going
<blogic> which imho is also important
<blogic> of course eventually you start thinking about he sense and meaning of patterns and so on
<blogic> but if you have no clue and want to get tsrated you dont care for patterns
<whitequark> well, I tend to agree
<blogic> what i dont like is arm7
<whitequark> after all, it's extremely tolerant, and it has DIP, and that sites, and so on
<blogic> they tned to take a kloc to even come up
<whitequark> STM32 is mostly Cortex-M3, which is thumb
<blogic> yes
<blogic> they tend to be a pain to get booted
<whitequark> and also peripherals are really like atmel ones
<whitequark> nope
<whitequark> nothing like that.
<whitequark> my boilerplate code to make a blinkie is... I dunno, two lines?
<blogic> i played with nxp lpc arm7 units and they liturally took 500.1000 lines of c before anything worked
<blogic> ah cool
<blogic> they improved it then
<whitequark> I even wrote a libc when I got bored
<whitequark> 10 lines of asm
<blogic> the lpc2318 was a nightmare
<whitequark> and some struct definitions
<whitequark> that's all
<whitequark> you struggle a bit trying to understand that you actually need to enable clock to GPIO module
<whitequark> but after that, it's actually often easier
<whitequark> 32 bit registers allow for a lot
<blogic> hehe
<whitequark> peripherals are much more powerful and often much more sane
<whitequark> no bit-stuffing
<blogic> and faster as the core clock is higher
<whitequark> you've got 128 MiB of address space just for bitbanging
<whitequark> yes
<blogic> does cortex have dma ?
<whitequark> yes
<blogic> ok +1 then
<whitequark> and it has a nested VIC
<whitequark> it's really good, and it is much much better than a conventional ARM IC
<whitequark> also
<whitequark> on-chip debugging
<whitequark> that has saved me a lot of time
<blogic> using jtag ?
<whitequark> you don't have that with atmel.
<whitequark> SWD works too
<blogic> ok
<blogic> i hav a bdi3000
<whitequark> I have a STM32 developer board
<blogic> jtag always worked for me with that :D
<whitequark> it's $10, and I got it for free
<whitequark> it has two STM32's on it
<whitequark> one is for experimenting
<blogic> ah ok
<blogic> i have seen that unit actually
<whitequark> other one (which is like four times more powerful, which is funny) is the programmer
<whitequark> STM32VLDISCOVERY?
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> I like it
<whitequark> after you get past the "ohh, that's not DIP" and "what programmer?.." stages
<whitequark> STM32s are juts as easy as atmels
<whitequark> *just
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> this one
<blogic> and its still solderable by hand
<whitequark> not by a common person, I'd say
<whitequark> and not by a beginner
<whitequark> but yes, it is
<blogic> soldering is a matter of patience and experience really
<blogic> and the right tools
<whitequark> (I have not seen a lot of people who can solder TQFP by hand. I can do up to LQFP, but that has taken quite a bit of practicising)
<whitequark> yes, a good soldering station helps a lot
<whitequark> also, avoiding RoHS solder too
<roh> hm.. btw.. i would wait on the pb thing. its not that liked in the foss 3d printing community
<blogic> flux
<blogic> :D
<whitequark> definitely
<whitequark> RMA has worked just fine for me
<blogic> hehe
<whitequark> at least all other things were worse
<whitequark> like: it's accidentally conductive (yick!)
<blogic> hehe
<whitequark> or: does not wash out.
<whitequark> _and_ accidentally conductive
<blogic> i milled a atmega2u2 pcb last night
<blogic> soldered it and lfashed it just now
<blogic> that is the atmega with usb device in it
<blogic> nice chip
<blogic> running LUFA on it with the dual serial firmware
<roh> tqfp is my limit too.. can solder it but below that there isnt a real chance.. cant get slimmer tips also
<whitequark> (soldering by hand) also, I think half of arduinos being made now are actually with some kind of *qf*
<blogic> roh: the trick is to solder and then remove solder for small structures
<whitequark> there's a lot of arduino-like breakouts for STM32, too
<viric> wolfspraul: the atom of the qi planet has 498 posts!
<blogic> does it have usb device built in ?
<viric> incredible
<roh> blogic: i know... enough flux. doesnt help if you need to add small wires to tap something. then you really need to heat single pads
<blogic> adding a ftdi is always too expensive
<whitequark> blogic: there are stm32s with usb devices
<whitequark> and usb OTG too
<blogic> brb wife fired a nmi
<blogic> :D
<whitequark> even more, they're actually pin-compatible if they're in the same case
<whitequark> regardless of family/model
<whitequark> great stuff
<whitequark> and hw multiplier
<whitequark> and so on.
<whitequark> 32-bit fixed point arithmetics in a couple of cycles per operation. I like that.
<wolfspraul> viric: yes I increased it recently from 60 to 500 :-)
<whitequark> to summarize, I don't see a point of using atmel chips in any of my (new) projects anymore
<wolfspraul> that's because I found browser searching in the debian planet to be so nice
<wolfspraul> and the debian planet has a huge long 1-page listing as well
<wolfspraul> the important idea behind the Qi planet is to look for high quality sources, feeds that post few but good articles
<wolfspraul> and then combine them together into a stream that is still readable, let's say at most 3-5 posts per day
<wolfspraul> better only 2 or so per day, but good ones
<wolfspraul> everything about open hardware and the people behind open hardware
<viric> wolfspraul: 'browser searching'? What is that
<viric> ?
<wolfspraul> ctrl-f, as opposed to google
<viric> ah!
<viric> I just put that into my offrss
<viric> and it took a while to pick the posts :)
<viric> wolfspraul: so, good with in-page search, but a pain for the browser :)
<wolfspraul> let the browser work a little
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> the limit is 500, not 50,000 :-)
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<viric> ok ok :)
<wolfspraul> if it's too bad, we can go down to 300, but I think it's ok
<wolfspraul> nobody will read that many top-down, it's more for searching
<viric> Well, I meant the 'rss'
<wolfspraul> so people may read a bit at the top, page-down until they find an interesting picture or term that catches their attention
<wolfspraul> or they search with ctrl-f
<viric> a list of post titles wouldn't be enough?
<viric> wolfspraul: I'd like to see a loongson2f with firefox show that web :)
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with post titles? you mean short rss with just the first paragraph or so?
<viric> ah
<viric> well, you talked about the web page
<viric> I talked about rss at the beginning
<wolfspraul> I have yet to find someone who would prefer that over the full text download, but if there are (maybe you?), then it's a feature to look for in planetplanet (which is mostly unmaintained unfortunately, I think)
<viric> I'm always for full-text download - don't worry :)
<viric> So, I think I talked about rss, while you talked about the amount of posts in the plantet *webpage*
<viric> I like a lot the contents of the planet, btw. :) Great job
<viric> And what I said about 'wouldn't post titles be enough?', was about.. instead of showing 500 full articles in a single web page in the browser, you could have a place (another web page) where to show only post-titles, for in-browser searching.
<viric> Maybe other browsers handle those 500 full text posts in a single web, but firefox 9.0.1 in my computer does not.
<wolfspraul> ok understood, thanks!
<viric> in any case...
<viric> don't worry about me. I use my own rss reader :)
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<pabs3> whitequark: thanks, added to the wiki page
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<viric> ok, cross-built setfont2...
<viric> I imagine http://amadeus.dist.ro/setfont/setfont.tar.bz2 is not updated at all though
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<viric> kyak: I run setfont2 with your cyrilic font, and I get only some horizontal small lines
<viric> kyak: the rest in black
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<viric> that can mean I need a patch? I thought I'd have the kernel patched already
<kristianpaul> !seen Artyom
<qi-bot> kristianpaul, Artyom (~chatzilla@ was last seen quitting #milkymist 1 week 6 days 23 hours 50 minutes ago (23.12. 20:18) stating "Client Quit" after spending 4 minutes there.
<viric> what do I need to load properly a font with setfont2?
<viric> aha, I don't have the patch
<viric> larsc: I can't find the setfont2 patches. neither any 3.x kernel patches.
<viric> not in git://projects.qi-hardware.com/openwrt-xburst.git
<viric> not in openwrt-trunk
<viric> oh found. in 2.6.37
<viric> target/linux/xburst/patches-2.6.37/450-fbcon-color-fonts.patch
<kyak> viric: there is the same patch for 3 series
<kyak> you can find nearby
<viric> hm
<viric> can't
<viric> ouch!
<viric> I wasn't looking at master!
<kyak> :)
<viric> patches-3.0
<viric> ok
<viric> I'm running 2.6.36
<viric> maybe I should take that of 2.6.37
<kyak> this patch is so small, it shouldn't take long to port even if it doesn't apply
<viric> hm not that small
<viric> and openwrt-xburst.git is huge
<viric> (to clone)
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<viric> to update the kernel.. should I use usbboot, or I can do that writing to something in /dev?
<viric> I'd need the mtdtools or so I imagine, to first erase...
<larsc> you can reflash the kernel using mtd.write
<viric> what is that?
<viric> a mtdtools command?
<larsc> yes. but the name is nandwrite, sory
<viric> ah ok
<viric> I'll try :)
<larsc> Although the title says "updating with an SD" this also works from nand if you only update the kernel
<larsc> or uboot
<viric> flash_eraseall is important too
<viric> right?
<larsc> yes
<viric> ok, I built all
<viric> mtdblock0 => uboot, mtdblock1 => kernel
<viric> or I need "mtd"...
<viric> ok written...
<viric> failed to boot.
<viric> perfect.
<viric> oh
<viric> flash_erase did not erase all 8 eraseblocks
<viric> larsc: http://sprunge.us/ZfBK
<viric> usbboot now
<viric> ok. now fails at 'verifying checksum'
<larsc> viric: the command is flash_eraseall not flash_erase
<viric> ouch
<viric> :)
<viric> and now, failed checksum! grr
<viric> after this http://sprunge.us/WfaS
<viric> looks like the comparision worked
<larsc> viric: i would re-try at least once. usbtool tends to be unreliable sometimes
<viric> hm I retried once
<viric> same.
<larsc> alternativly you could boot from mmc card if you have one around
<larsc> on the other hand, what's the size of your kernel image?
<viric> slightly over 2MB
<viric> 2MiB
<viric> Data Size: 2126402 Bytes = 2076.56 kB = 2.03 MB
<larsc> hm
<viric> oh, uboot loads only 2MiB!?
<viric> It says: D read: device 0 offset 0x400000 size 0x200000
<larsc> do you have serial access to your nanonote?
<viric> ouch. Right. 2MiB.
<viric> not really... but I can build another uboot
<viric> it's just about changing the load, isn't it?
<larsc> either that or try to squeeze some bytes from the kernel
<viric> I better load more.
<viric> 3.1 or 3.2 will be bigger I imagine
<viric> larsc: I have the uboot output on screen, not on tty :)
<viric> #define CONFIG_BOOTCOMMAND "nand read 0x80600000 0x400000 0x200000;bootm"
<larsc> chaning that should work
<viric> 0x300000 ?
<viric> or I write 4? the partition is 4MiB big...
<viric> there we go with 4
<larsc> i think there is even a command which reads the uImage header and extracts the size from it and than loads the remaining bytes
<viric> ah... is it?
<viric> that would be nicer
<viric> I'll go with 0x400000 by now
<viric> Checking 454656 bytes... no check! End at Page: 111
<viric> kernel booting, and... can't find rootfs
<viric> as if it lacked ubi
<viric> grr
<viric> larsc: is 2.6.37 with the openwrt-xburst patches supposed to boot?
<larsc> yes
<larsc> although I haven't tried it in a whole
<larsc> while
<viric> hm
<viric> something may be failing about ubi
<viric> I hope nothing overwrote blocks...
<viric> wasn't there a nread command for usbboot?
<larsc> yes
<viric> I can't find the docs...
<larsc> ah, right there is only ndump
<viric> ndump?
<viric> no qiwiki page talks about ndump
<viric> oh, "usboot -c help"
<larsc> no wait
<larsc> there is nread
<larsc> but all it does is prints the contents to the screen
<viric> I see
<viric> I just tried it
<viric> reading 2GB that way... may hurt :)
<viric> (I'm building the kernel 2.6.36 I was using, though)
<viric> I put back 2.6.36, and it boots
<viric> so it may be some new kernel option..grrr
<viric> I have the exact ubi options between both
<viric> oh # CONFIG_CRYPTO_ZLIB is not set
<viric> I might be using zlib in my ubifs...
<viric> silly. I've UBIFS_FS_ZLIB enabled, and CRYPTO_ZLIB disabled though. The kernel could have complained.
<viric> unless ubifs comes with its own zlib implementation
<viric> ah there is both deflate and zlib. weird.